@@FilbeeGaming if he wanted to lie to sow distrust, why lie about Micah? Why not lie that it was Dutch who sold them all out? That would’ve been more effective at destroying the gang. Also, why would he need to feed a lie to the girls? He’s confident he can take on Arthur but not the girls?
I've been studying Molly a little myself, I've seen her sat at shady bell head in her hands, keeping her distance as usual but somethings going on in her head, clearly conflicted and this is leading up to the trolley station heist. All I've got left to do is the riverboat mission and the heist in this chapter. You make a great point, Milton could have been covering for Molly as she was now an agent for them.
I think maybe she did, but Micah definitely ratted. How else would Milton know about Guarma? IDT it would be Javier or Bill since Milton sends John after them in the first game.
Molly couldn’t go back to her life in Ireland because she was a “fallen woman.” In her poem, she mentions she was a girl before she met him; metaphorically meaning Dutch was probably her first and only romantic partner. She was also probably raised Catholic, being from Dublin, so the social stigma was strong (and internalized. Which also explains her disdain for the other women and her calling them “trollops.”). This was during the era of Magdalene Laundries, after all, so Molly would be well-aware of her pariah status as a “fallen woman” if she returned to Dublin. Molly was trapped no matter what she did.
It's interesting that it was Susan Grimshaw who shot Molly, considering she and Dutch were an item years before the events of the game - it must show she's still committed to Dutch in some way. I mean obviously it proves her loyalty to Dutch and the gang, but it's still noteworthy that of all the people Molly could've been shot by, it was Grimshaw - clearly Dutch still loved Molly and didn't want to be the one to kill her
Things were so different back in the day. When she left Ireland just a girl she would probably have been looked down upon as a fallen woman by that stage making it impossible for her to return. She had nowhere to go,was with a man who she obviously adored,but wanted just him,no gang,no troubles. Sadly Dutch being Dutch was never going to be that man . Ive always felt so sorry for Molly,she was totally trapped hoping for a miracle that was never going to happen. I also think that her stating she had told the Pinkertons was just for the attention she desperatly needed. Susan was a hard woman literally no feelings whatsoever,Dutch hesitated as he did have a small amount of feelings for Molly. Poor girl its a sad tale. Thank you for all your hard work Phil much love as always x
Nah, she didn't snitch. Like others said Milton had no reason to lie. This part of the story is always weird, there's no clear reason for her to lie about this besides "Molly upset". For as much as everyone always looks into this seeking more answers, I'm pretty sure its just a red-herring for anyone going through the story the first time and nothing more. But the more you think about it, the more its just a way for the writers to take suspicion off of Micah and keep some tension going in the story. After all, Micah really is the only suspect at this point when so many others have died or left. In my first playthough I was sure he was ratting us out since the oil wagon robbery in Horseshoe. I was very surprised to learn it didn't happen until way later. The real mystery left in RDR2 is how did the cops and Pinkertons come so prepared to Blackwater? Or the oil wagon train robbery, everyone on the heist notes how fast the response time was. And there's the bank robbery in St. Dennis, Pinkertons sniffed that one out before they had Micah on their side. It brings a compelling question I haven't seen any solid answers to: who was ratting out the gang before Guarma? Not sure if there is an answer to this though. As we see numerous other times in the story, the gang might have just made the wrong call with these jobs. The obvious first conclusion is that there's a rat early in the story, but the game tells you the answer time and time again: times are changing. There are no more "easy, remote train robberies", no more easy banks you hit and skip town with no consequence. The gang isn't exactly unnoticeable when moving through towns, always stirring something up at least. And with the Pinkertons already on the hunt, its not hard to believe they would be able to find the gang in each new time every time they make noise. The lawless parts of the country are becoming smaller by the day. Civilization grows and stomps out everything in its path, including outlaws. So the police seem a step ahead of the gang because the gang refuses to change their ways or do anything differently. In the dying age of outlaws and cowboys, this would make it pretty easy to find the Van Der Linde gang anytime they do something crazy, which is all the time.
An interesting theory I seen is that molly was pregnant throughout the game and that’s why she was arguing with the other gang members a lot and trying to talk to Dutch
She was definitely drunk so maybe she Actually did it i mean when your drunk some things come out that you didn't mean to say great video btw it is... Interesting
Lol.... Milton had no reason to lie because he was going to kill Arthur.... But he wasn't going to kill Abby or Sadie was he? So his information could very well get back to the gang. Also if Milton was watching them as much as is made out in the game he would be aware of the dynamic between the gang and micha. So telling Arthur micha was the rat could just be one final dig at Arthur 🤷🏼♂️ it's a good theory.
Interesting Interesting Interesting...i think this is a solid theory here and makes a lot of sense. Milton seems to be honest man imo. So i dont think he would lie but i also can see him not playing all his cards when he has info. Great video as always. I havent seen anybody discuss this either, however im new to the RDR lore channels.
One thing that was really interesting in RDR1 was how much Reyes thinks fondly of Dutch from John's descriptions of him. Reyes and Dutch seem to be the similar type of manipulators and I think Molly to Dutch was what Luisa was to Reyes. And no, I don't think Molly was the rat. She probably lied to just spit on Dutch's face and there isn't really a reason for Milton to lie about the rat before trying to kill Arthur
I think that Molly was lying. She left her country, became a criminal but Dutch began to ignore her so she wanted to hurt him. And since she knew that Dutch valued loyalty most of all, she knew how to hurt him was to pretend that she wasn't loyal to him. It's also poetic that it was Ms. Grimshaw who shot her for treason while later she was shot by the real traitor; Micah.
I doubt Molly was the rat. But one note worthy thing in her is that even though she's high and mighty as Karen puts it but in chapter 4 once Kieran is killed and Sean before that Sean being from Ireland and Kieran having irish parents she's devistated. After mission where Kieran's body is returned to camp she says for arthur "okay? Okay?? How can any of this be okay?? Kieran and Sean are death and Dutch hardly speaks to me" or something along the lines about Dutch but to me the fact that she actually did care about Sean and Kieran is sad :(
My first reaction was "Nah, no way." But then, when you brought up that Milton (most likely) did not know about Molly's death, I think you have got a point there. Plus, there is this saying that young kids and the drunk always speak the truth... And Milton blaming everything on Micah to protect the real snitch, that also figures. Micah is an easy target to put the blame on and many players, myself included, pretty much bought this potential lie from Milton because nobody likes Micah as there is not much good to see in him. Additionally, though being a complete jerk, Micah is pretty clever and manipulates Dutch in so many ways, would he really need the Pinkertons to destroy the gang? So, I really enjoyed your theory. It gave me something to think about.
This is another good point, saying someone else is the snitch would allow for your actual snitch to stay in place. This is literally subterfuge 101. I think Micah answered to Colm. Therefore the pinkertons didnt know the info was coming from Micah, or they were willing to let him take the fall to keep Molly(who is waaaaaaaaaaay closer to Dutch) in place. I mean Molly was probably the bouncing board for Dutchs ideas before she got all whiney. Even if he didnt listen to her, he has an ego and probably brag/explained his plans. And she would always know where dutch was planning on going for an escape cause she planned on going with him.
Or there were three rats. Micah, molly and Abigail. the gang was doomed after black water. Dutch was a failed leader time and time over.Also the members began to notice he was on a mental decline. He was untrustworthy, a liar and murderous and they feared him. Everyone began to want an out because dutch stopped doing what the gang needed. Dutch became selfish and malicious to anyone that challenged him to be better or do anything different that didn’t serve his wants at the cost of everyones safety. The best ones in the bunch men in the bunch were hosea, Arthur and Charles for everyone was Arthur.
@@joshuarogue9345 Micah answering to Colm is a good point as well. After all, he instigates this meeting with Colm, Dutch and Arthur. And I bet Micah just loved how the O'Driscolls tortured Arthur. A convenient result, especially if Mica hoped the O'Driscolls would finish Arthur off. That would have given Micah even more access to Dutch, and thus manipulating him further. He surely disliked the influence Arthur could still have on Dutch.
Indeed. Abigal also is a likely candidate considering that she strives for a "normal life" with John and Jack. What better way to just get rid of the gang, right?@@dltaylor1028
Honestly I feel Micah is a rat regardless, but I think Molly could have said son too given how she sdosen't like the gang and was just spiteful she didn't get her way. Yes she was upset but she got people killed with the hopes it would be Dutch and then got drunk. Like she is a bad person if it's true if not, yes kinda stupid for lying in front of the gang...when she knew shed be shot... Unless she Wass so drunk she forgot the risk of death for saying that.
i see it more than 2 rats in van der lind gang.. but in the end of chapter.. dutch can see his wrong about arthur when artur say i give all i had. and realise is micah is another rats.. first rat that we all know is micah bell and he say his is just survivor..and convince dutch about a future.. and milton say a true coz he has a gun and know his to shoot arthur.. second rats that i think is abigail robert.. maybe she just saw what happen to the gang death after death and want to save her family... we can see that she convince arthur to take jack go fishing that maybe before that abigail has deal with milton.. maybe the deal is milton can start broke a chain gang with second most powerful gang member (arthur).. and some evidence that comunity rdr2 up in internet.. but what see is about john is maybe a third rat.. coz.. some part i know that john has run away for year.. that what other member think..but i think maybe him just get capture and in prison state.. and pinkerton get a instruction to banised all gang in america..and maybe pinkerton know one gang member od vanderlind in prison and then high rangking detective in pinkerton make a deal with john to broke van derlind gang from inside and give all data.. so maybe john take it just to release him self, and he know that loyalty.. but when we on chapter 3 .. we saw milton and ross come to convince vanderlind gang that give a dutch.. we see that milton know all gang member unless john.. then he ask john who are u.. john give his name.. rip van winkle... that i see like code that pinkerton give to john.. so what ithink is maybe milton know that code but doesnt know who carry with that code.. coz rip van winkle is like R.I.P Van der lind, and Winkle is just eye wink or maybe other mean.. and we see milton say is something like oh its you in other diffrent way. maybe that abigail or some one has deal with pinkerton.. and the deal maybe is give a dutch head or location to pinkerton so pinkerton can give abigail or other time to run or live to tell tales.. yes abigail has son.. for sure she doesn't want pinkerton just came and shoot coz its danger to her son and her husband.. that why maybe she just give a location to pinkerton know their location.. and what i see john is loyalty.. to dutch but in same way his just want to safe his family after what happen to jack in that time (get kidnap)... and i think dutch know or suspect something about that code john say. we can see in his face or body language.. and we all know that when their go rob a bank in san denis.. abigail seem can run without getting catch.. or maybe they just release her coz its a deal.. maybe that why milton kill hosea coz hosea know what happen when their get caught and dutch leave john to get caught.. and i think pinkerton know that john doesnt comply that deal their make.. maybe that why their lock john on prison.. and we can see dutch seem to know that some one has became a rat from begining.. his suspected some one or two rats, but arthur cant get that... maybe after pinkerton lock john in prison.. abigail see that pinkerton cant comply with their deal.. so abigail maybe want to unplug that cable with pinkerton after john has get release from prison when arthur and sadie save john... but that time micah bell has become a another rat.. so pinkerton know location dutch gang.. but maybe when their arrive in that chapter six camp, dutch and gang goes out (robberies) and maybe they ambush that location and all member run but pinkerton get abigail and their catch abigail for being scam to pinkerton and release john.. that why we see jack and one girl ( iforgot her name) in horse like run away.. and after that. dutch seem know and hated abigail coz suspicious his has became a rat so long . and we know dutch doesnt want to save abigail.. and we know dutch just leave john when john get shot.. so when we save abigail.. we hear milton say micah bell has become a good boy since their back from carribean and so on arthur reply back. but we can see that discussion interupt when abigail shoot milton.. seem like abigail so hate with milton. or maybe she doesnt want milton say about abigail connection or maybe because milton cannot comply with the deal and ambush the gang that can endanger or kill her son jack when their start shooting. and that why from begining we can see only milton and ross came to talk, before abigail pull the plug with them. because we all know when agency know location on some gang. their just rush and shoot to kill all gang or members in that location.. for me when 2 agent came to make a deal.. seem something has make a deal to just take dutch or convince other member to surrender.. but in the end.. i still respect john coz his actualy really care about his family even his loss all member like brother to him. even if is it true john and abigail is rats. i not blame it.. coz their has sons and family.. that loyalty has nothing compare about family... that what arthur say on chapter when their blow the bridge for last heist.. thats is some what i think... and please forgive my bad grammar.. ok #still... if i became a dutch..maybe i do what dutch do.. coz member become betrayal, and my head has price and people want that price. just to save their live.. it is paranoid.. a good member has become a death on shootout... and dutch best loyalty friend like arthur has sick, and will gone soon. but in the end dutch seem realise all his mistake that his give a micah take control his mind.. and we all know what happen in the last chapter.. and forgive me once all.. its just my theory..ok
Here's my theory: Milton prodded her a few times but she never did really speak. She did want to tell Dutch, but he kept pushing her off. So finally, when the bank heist became a thing, she went to Milton. He already had info from Saint Denis Police and Bronte, so the only thing she could offer was details on the plans. Details like Hosea and Abigail serving as the distraction. Like Judas and his 30 pieces of silver, they pay O'Shea a modest reward, and at first she thinks about returning home. Maybe sets herself up at the nice Saloon there in town with plans to catch a ship back home. Then she realizes she is now a "Fallen Woman" as society would call her at the time, or little better than one. "Used Goods," she can't just go back to life as it was and marry to another man. Maybe too innocent to lie about her time with Dutch, maybe too certain it wouldn't matter. She couldn't go back. She was stuck, and the money she had wouldn't be enough to really start anything. She'd have to *ugh*, she'd have to *work* and she likely lacked any skills that would afford her any ability to work somewhere without serious labor, or selling herself. So in her mind, she had nothing. She turns to drink, anything to numb the pain but all she can think about is Dutch. Maybe in a few days she gets kicked out of the Saloon, so she's left to drink at the crappy one. Uncle meets her just as she's about to get thrown out of there, talks her into going back with him to the gang, they'll take care of her. But she's mad. She's mad and she's drunk and right now she has the self-control of a spoiled toddler. So she goes off, confesses she told Milton about the Bank Heist, too drunk to think about what's going to happen in five minutes much less five days from now, and she gets shot. No motivation to end her life, just a drunken stupor that empowered her enough to say her peace, but not enough to consider the consequences.
Before even watching the video my opinion is that she 100% was A rat. Not the only one. The, she lied about snitching makes no sense when you think about how she acts in camp. I also think Micah was working with Colm the whole time. He has a green scarf like the o driscolls, has green on his saddle, and knew who Dutch was and when and where Dutch to find him when he "saved" Dutch before the game starts. Also, my immediately family got away from the bad side of our families. But we had two of my Aunts being watched by the FBI, they will literally say anything to get you to mess up and give info, or to make you turn on your ppl. So him saying Molly never talked, that just the literal most obvious thing to do to stir up discord within the gang. It makes them second guess killing her, and second guess everyone around them. And that is how you get ppl to talk. Taking out my personal experience with law enforcement building a case and tracking someone, just watch any ex under cover agents interview. They use this method, and have used this method since before the constitution was put in place.
Yeah nah. I do believe Molly got approached by Milton, offered a deal or such. But I dont believe she would snitch. You said it yourself. She loved him. Why would she want him dead when she loved him so much she wasnt even able to hop on a boat and go back to Ireland. However I believe she snitched on Colm, knowing how much of a trouble he was for Dutch. Molly was a train wreck during chapter 4 and I am more inclined to Micah spinning a yarn and manipulating her into telling Dutch she told Milton about the bank robbery. Probably for his own entertainment. Until he witnessed what REALLY happens to those who are disloyal. Or rats. And truly. Milton had no reason to lie to Arthur. He was having the time of his life mocking him and also wasn’t planning to let Arthur leave that fence store alive. Ge was not supposed to leave that store alive.
I don't agree with this. Agent Milton had no reason to lie, he was sure he would kill Arthur.
But not the girls
@@FilbeeGaming if he wanted to lie to sow distrust, why lie about Micah? Why not lie that it was Dutch who sold them all out? That would’ve been more effective at destroying the gang. Also, why would he need to feed a lie to the girls? He’s confident he can take on Arthur but not the girls?
I've been studying Molly a little myself, I've seen her sat at shady bell head in her hands, keeping her distance as usual but somethings going on in her head, clearly conflicted and this is leading up to the trolley station heist. All I've got left to do is the riverboat mission and the heist in this chapter. You make a great point, Milton could have been covering for Molly as she was now an agent for them.
Yeah, as I stated, they probably didn't know she had been killed
But then why didn't Milton cover for Micah as well, since technically Micah was working for them too?
I think maybe she did, but Micah definitely ratted. How else would Milton know about Guarma? IDT it would be Javier or Bill since Milton sends John after them in the first game.
Molly couldn’t go back to her life in Ireland because she was a “fallen woman.”
In her poem, she mentions she was a girl before she met him; metaphorically meaning Dutch was probably her first and only romantic partner.
She was also probably raised Catholic, being from Dublin, so the social stigma was strong (and internalized. Which also explains her disdain for the other women and her calling them “trollops.”). This was during the era of Magdalene Laundries, after all, so Molly would be well-aware of her pariah status as a “fallen woman” if she returned to Dublin.
Molly was trapped no matter what she did.
Very good! I didn't make that connection
People just want to agree with you no matter what. Milton had no reason to lie since he had the drop on Arthur. Why lie about Molly and not Micah?
"I gave you all" wow, now I know why arthur Said: "I gave you all I had"
I don't buy it, especially because Milton was sure he would kill Arthur so there is no reason to lie.
It's interesting that it was Susan Grimshaw who shot Molly, considering she and Dutch were an item years before the events of the game - it must show she's still committed to Dutch in some way. I mean obviously it proves her loyalty to Dutch and the gang, but it's still noteworthy that of all the people Molly could've been shot by, it was Grimshaw - clearly Dutch still loved Molly and didn't want to be the one to kill her
They stood on rules. Her and Dutch both said it! It has nothibg to do with them being an item🙄🤨
Things were so different back in the day. When she left Ireland just a girl she would probably have been looked down upon as a fallen woman by that stage making it impossible for her to return. She had nowhere to go,was with a man who she obviously adored,but wanted just him,no gang,no troubles. Sadly Dutch being Dutch was never going to be that man . Ive always felt so sorry for Molly,she was totally trapped hoping for a miracle that was never going to happen. I also think that her stating she had told the Pinkertons was just for the attention she desperatly needed. Susan was a hard woman literally no feelings whatsoever,Dutch hesitated as he did have a small amount of feelings for Molly. Poor girl its a sad tale.
Thank you for all your hard work Phil much love as always x
Nah, she didn't snitch. Like others said Milton had no reason to lie. This part of the story is always weird, there's no clear reason for her to lie about this besides "Molly upset". For as much as everyone always looks into this seeking more answers, I'm pretty sure its just a red-herring for anyone going through the story the first time and nothing more. But the more you think about it, the more its just a way for the writers to take suspicion off of Micah and keep some tension going in the story. After all, Micah really is the only suspect at this point when so many others have died or left. In my first playthough I was sure he was ratting us out since the oil wagon robbery in Horseshoe. I was very surprised to learn it didn't happen until way later.
The real mystery left in RDR2 is how did the cops and Pinkertons come so prepared to Blackwater? Or the oil wagon train robbery, everyone on the heist notes how fast the response time was. And there's the bank robbery in St. Dennis, Pinkertons sniffed that one out before they had Micah on their side.
It brings a compelling question I haven't seen any solid answers to: who was ratting out the gang before Guarma?
Not sure if there is an answer to this though. As we see numerous other times in the story, the gang might have just made the wrong call with these jobs. The obvious first conclusion is that there's a rat early in the story, but the game tells you the answer time and time again: times are changing. There are no more "easy, remote train robberies", no more easy banks you hit and skip town with no consequence. The gang isn't exactly unnoticeable when moving through towns, always stirring something up at least. And with the Pinkertons already on the hunt, its not hard to believe they would be able to find the gang in each new time every time they make noise.
The lawless parts of the country are becoming smaller by the day. Civilization grows and stomps out everything in its path, including outlaws. So the police seem a step ahead of the gang because the gang refuses to change their ways or do anything differently. In the dying age of outlaws and cowboys, this would make it pretty easy to find the Van Der Linde gang anytime they do something crazy, which is all the time.
UwU i love these vids not just for the immense amounts of time spent on this game and story told but also for that silky smooth sultry voice 😊
Thank you
Furry?
I more than likely pronounced that wrong
UwO
An interesting theory I seen is that molly was pregnant throughout the game and that’s why she was arguing with the other gang members a lot and trying to talk to Dutch
She was definitely drunk so maybe she Actually did it i mean when your drunk some things come out that you didn't mean to say great video btw it is... Interesting
Lol.... Milton had no reason to lie because he was going to kill Arthur.... But he wasn't going to kill Abby or Sadie was he? So his information could very well get back to the gang. Also if Milton was watching them as much as is made out in the game he would be aware of the dynamic between the gang and micha. So telling Arthur micha was the rat could just be one final dig at Arthur 🤷🏼♂️ it's a good theory.
Interesting Interesting Interesting...i think this is a solid theory here and makes a lot of sense. Milton seems to be honest man imo. So i dont think he would lie but i also can see him not playing all his cards when he has info. Great video as always. I havent seen anybody discuss this either, however im new to the RDR lore channels.
Thanks J, glad you enjoyed. I've got about 4 or 5 other lore videos currently in the works. I'll send you the ideas, see what you think
One thing that was really interesting in RDR1 was how much Reyes thinks fondly of Dutch from John's descriptions of him. Reyes and Dutch seem to be the similar type of manipulators and I think Molly to Dutch was what Luisa was to Reyes. And no, I don't think Molly was the rat. She probably lied to just spit on Dutch's face and there isn't really a reason for Milton to lie about the rat before trying to kill Arthur
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned……
I think that Molly was lying. She left her country, became a criminal but Dutch began to ignore her so she wanted to hurt him. And since she knew that Dutch valued loyalty most of all, she knew how to hurt him was to pretend that she wasn't loyal to him.
It's also poetic that it was Ms. Grimshaw who shot her for treason while later she was shot by the real traitor; Micah.
I doubt Molly was the rat. But one note worthy thing in her is that even though she's high and mighty as Karen puts it but in chapter 4 once Kieran is killed and Sean before that Sean being from Ireland and Kieran having irish parents she's devistated. After mission where Kieran's body is returned to camp she says for arthur "okay? Okay?? How can any of this be okay?? Kieran and Sean are death and Dutch hardly speaks to me" or something along the lines about Dutch but to me the fact that she actually did care about Sean and Kieran is sad :(
My first reaction was "Nah, no way." But then, when you brought up that Milton (most likely) did not know about Molly's death, I think you have got a point there. Plus, there is this saying that young kids and the drunk always speak the truth... And Milton blaming everything on Micah to protect the real snitch, that also figures. Micah is an easy target to put the blame on and many players, myself included, pretty much bought this potential lie from Milton because nobody likes Micah as there is not much good to see in him. Additionally, though being a complete jerk, Micah is pretty clever and manipulates Dutch in so many ways, would he really need the Pinkertons to destroy the gang? So, I really enjoyed your theory. It gave me something to think about.
This is another good point, saying someone else is the snitch would allow for your actual snitch to stay in place. This is literally subterfuge 101. I think Micah answered to Colm. Therefore the pinkertons didnt know the info was coming from Micah, or they were willing to let him take the fall to keep Molly(who is waaaaaaaaaaay closer to Dutch) in place. I mean Molly was probably the bouncing board for Dutchs ideas before she got all whiney. Even if he didnt listen to her, he has an ego and probably brag/explained his plans. And she would always know where dutch was planning on going for an escape cause she planned on going with him.
Or there were three rats. Micah, molly and Abigail. the gang was doomed after black water. Dutch was a failed leader time and time over.Also the members began to notice he was on a mental decline. He was untrustworthy, a liar and murderous and they feared him. Everyone began to want an out because dutch stopped doing what the gang needed. Dutch became selfish and malicious to anyone that challenged him to be better or do anything different that didn’t serve his wants at the cost of everyones safety. The best ones in the bunch men in the bunch were hosea, Arthur and Charles for everyone was Arthur.
@@dltaylor1028 I would agree that Abigale at least at on point spoke to the pinkertons.
@@joshuarogue9345 Micah answering to Colm is a good point as well. After all, he instigates this meeting with Colm, Dutch and Arthur. And I bet Micah just loved how the O'Driscolls tortured Arthur. A convenient result, especially if Mica hoped the O'Driscolls would finish Arthur off. That would have given Micah even more access to Dutch, and thus manipulating him further. He surely disliked the influence Arthur could still have on Dutch.
Indeed. Abigal also is a likely candidate considering that she strives for a "normal life" with John and Jack. What better way to just get rid of the gang, right?@@dltaylor1028
you have a cool voice bro
Thank you. I normally talk a little faster in real life
Honestly I feel Micah is a rat regardless, but I think Molly could have said son too given how she sdosen't like the gang and was just spiteful she didn't get her way. Yes she was upset but she got people killed with the hopes it would be Dutch and then got drunk. Like she is a bad person if it's true if not, yes kinda stupid for lying in front of the gang...when she knew shed be shot...
Unless she Wass so drunk she forgot the risk of death for saying that.
i see it more than 2 rats in van der lind gang.. but in the end of chapter.. dutch can see his wrong about arthur when artur say i give all i had. and realise is micah is another rats..
first rat that we all know is micah bell and he say his is just survivor..and convince dutch about a future.. and milton say a true coz he has a gun and know his to shoot arthur..
second rats that i think is abigail robert.. maybe she just saw what happen to the gang death after death and want to save her family... we can see that she convince arthur to take jack go fishing that maybe before that abigail has deal with milton.. maybe the deal is milton can start broke a chain gang with second most powerful gang member (arthur).. and some evidence that comunity rdr2 up in internet..
but what see is about john is maybe a third rat.. coz.. some part i know that john has run away for year.. that what other member think..but i think maybe him just get capture and in prison state.. and pinkerton get a instruction to banised all gang in america..and maybe pinkerton know one gang member od vanderlind in prison and then high rangking detective in pinkerton make a deal with john to broke van derlind gang from inside and give all data.. so maybe john take it just to release him self, and he know that loyalty.. but when we on chapter 3 .. we saw milton and ross come to convince vanderlind gang that give a dutch.. we see that milton know all gang member unless john.. then he ask john who are u.. john give his name.. rip van winkle... that i see like code that pinkerton give to john.. so what ithink is maybe milton know that code but doesnt know who carry with that code.. coz rip van winkle is like R.I.P Van der lind, and Winkle is just eye wink or maybe other mean.. and we see milton say is something like oh its you in other diffrent way. maybe that abigail or some one has deal with pinkerton.. and the deal maybe is give a dutch head or location to pinkerton so pinkerton can give abigail or other time to run or live to tell tales.. yes abigail has son.. for sure she doesn't want pinkerton just came and shoot coz its danger to her son and her husband.. that why maybe she just give a location to pinkerton know their location.. and what i see john is loyalty.. to dutch but in same way his just want to safe his family after what happen to jack in that time (get kidnap)... and i think dutch know or suspect something about that code john say. we can see in his face or body language.. and we all know that when their go rob a bank in san denis.. abigail seem can run without getting catch.. or maybe they just release her coz its a deal.. maybe that why milton kill hosea coz hosea know what happen when their get caught and dutch leave john to get caught.. and i think pinkerton know that john doesnt comply that deal their make.. maybe that why their lock john on prison.. and we can see dutch seem to know that some one has became a rat from begining.. his suspected some one or two rats, but arthur cant get that...
maybe after pinkerton lock john in prison.. abigail see that pinkerton cant comply with their deal.. so abigail maybe want to unplug that cable with pinkerton after john has get release from prison when arthur and sadie save john... but that time micah bell has become a another rat.. so pinkerton know location dutch gang.. but maybe when their arrive in that chapter six camp, dutch and gang goes out (robberies) and maybe they ambush that location and all member run but pinkerton get abigail and their catch abigail for being scam to pinkerton and release john.. that why we see jack and one girl ( iforgot her name) in horse like run away.. and after that. dutch seem know and hated abigail coz suspicious his has became a rat so long . and we know dutch doesnt want to save abigail.. and we know dutch just leave john when john get shot.. so when we save abigail.. we hear milton say micah bell has become a good boy since their back from carribean and so on arthur reply back. but we can see that discussion interupt when abigail shoot milton.. seem like abigail so hate with milton. or maybe she doesnt want milton say about abigail connection or maybe because milton cannot comply with the deal and ambush the gang that can endanger or kill her son jack when their start shooting. and that why from begining we can see only milton and ross came to talk, before abigail pull the plug with them. because we all know when agency know location on some gang. their just rush and shoot to kill all gang or members in that location.. for me when 2 agent came to make a deal.. seem something has make a deal to just take dutch or convince other member to surrender.. but in the end.. i still respect john coz his actualy really care about his family even his loss all member like brother to him. even if is it true john and abigail is rats. i not blame it.. coz their has sons and family.. that loyalty has nothing compare about family... that what arthur say on chapter when their blow the bridge for last heist.. thats is some what i think... and please forgive my bad grammar.. ok
#still... if i became a dutch..maybe i do what dutch do.. coz member become betrayal, and my head has price and people want that price. just to save their live.. it is paranoid.. a good member has become a death on shootout... and dutch best loyalty friend like arthur has sick, and will gone soon. but in the end dutch seem realise all his mistake that his give a micah take control his mind.. and we all know what happen in the last chapter..
and forgive me once all.. its just my theory..ok
1897 go boom
I always thought she was telling the truth but said nothing that wasn't already known.
Its plausible. Great video btw
Thank you!
I think this theory makes sense, I also liked your theory about Abigail also ratting out the gang
Thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed
Here's my theory: Milton prodded her a few times but she never did really speak. She did want to tell Dutch, but he kept pushing her off. So finally, when the bank heist became a thing, she went to Milton. He already had info from Saint Denis Police and Bronte, so the only thing she could offer was details on the plans. Details like Hosea and Abigail serving as the distraction. Like Judas and his 30 pieces of silver, they pay O'Shea a modest reward, and at first she thinks about returning home. Maybe sets herself up at the nice Saloon there in town with plans to catch a ship back home. Then she realizes she is now a "Fallen Woman" as society would call her at the time, or little better than one. "Used Goods," she can't just go back to life as it was and marry to another man. Maybe too innocent to lie about her time with Dutch, maybe too certain it wouldn't matter. She couldn't go back. She was stuck, and the money she had wouldn't be enough to really start anything. She'd have to *ugh*, she'd have to *work* and she likely lacked any skills that would afford her any ability to work somewhere without serious labor, or selling herself. So in her mind, she had nothing. She turns to drink, anything to numb the pain but all she can think about is Dutch. Maybe in a few days she gets kicked out of the Saloon, so she's left to drink at the crappy one. Uncle meets her just as she's about to get thrown out of there, talks her into going back with him to the gang, they'll take care of her. But she's mad. She's mad and she's drunk and right now she has the self-control of a spoiled toddler. So she goes off, confesses she told Milton about the Bank Heist, too drunk to think about what's going to happen in five minutes much less five days from now, and she gets shot. No motivation to end her life, just a drunken stupor that empowered her enough to say her peace, but not enough to consider the consequences.
YNWA💯
JFT97
Before even watching the video my opinion is that she 100% was A rat. Not the only one. The, she lied about snitching makes no sense when you think about how she acts in camp. I also think Micah was working with Colm the whole time. He has a green scarf like the o driscolls, has green on his saddle, and knew who Dutch was and when and where Dutch to find him when he "saved" Dutch before the game starts. Also, my immediately family got away from the bad side of our families. But we had two of my Aunts being watched by the FBI, they will literally say anything to get you to mess up and give info, or to make you turn on your ppl. So him saying Molly never talked, that just the literal most obvious thing to do to stir up discord within the gang. It makes them second guess killing her, and second guess everyone around them. And that is how you get ppl to talk. Taking out my personal experience with law enforcement building a case and tracking someone, just watch any ex under cover agents interview. They use this method, and have used this method since before the constitution was put in place.
Yeah nah. I do believe Molly got approached by Milton, offered a deal or such. But I dont believe she would snitch.
You said it yourself. She loved him. Why would she want him dead when she loved him so much she wasnt even able to hop on a boat and go back to Ireland.
However I believe she snitched on Colm, knowing how much of a trouble he was for Dutch.
Molly was a train wreck during chapter 4 and I am more inclined to Micah spinning a yarn and manipulating her into telling Dutch she told Milton about the bank robbery. Probably for his own entertainment. Until he witnessed what REALLY happens to those who are disloyal. Or rats.
And truly. Milton had no reason to lie to Arthur. He was having the time of his life mocking him and also wasn’t planning to let Arthur leave that fence store alive. Ge was not supposed to leave that store alive.