Is Dordt RELEVANT?
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Warren of Idol Killer joins Eric and Drew of @TheProvisionistPerspective to discuss the relevance of the Canons of Dort within today’s conversations on Christian soteriology.
#Calvinism #reformedtheology #christian
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Dordt: Where Arminians were condemned, for not submitting to a council that refused to allow them to question the validity of Calvinism.
Calvinism does wreck marriages. My husband & I attended a so called Bible believing church to later realise it was Calvinist. It was a home church with a mechanic running it. He was the pastor & totally convinced my husband that what I was questioning was just a woman’s emotional reaction to Gods truth.
My husband has been violent, swears the worst words possible even uses Jesus name in vain.
I took the kids to a sound church & they are now grown & married.
My husband would sit at the table after every Sunday lunch flicking through his KJV reading verses about silly woman leading men astray or verses he thought supported his churches tulip.
I still live with my husband but his anger is just below the surface & there’s no love in the marriage all over Calvinist doctrine.
It causes so much pain & grief.
My joy is all of my 5 children are Christians & have strong sound beliefs but the troubles growing up with their dad still causes emotional pain & anxiety at times . This is the fruit of this evil doctrine
It happened to me, too. Was in an abusive marriage, and my Calvinist pastor said It was God's will that I was there. He went even further to say I was not submissive to God's will or my husband when I refused to be abused anymore.
@@christinemiller6978 yes I have been read the submissive verse many times by my husband he has taken the keys out of my car pulled battery leads off so the kids & I couldn’t get to church.
I have also been told Christians can’t divorce.
The funny thing is he’s the most helpful & lovely to everyone else in the community they think he’s amazing as do his church.
Little do they know he’s He’s Jekyll & Hyde.
35:19 Ok, let it be known that I am PROUDLY (what else?) wicked, impure and unstable…
…as measured by adherence to this doctrine.
Warren, I feel for you.
Something similar happened to me. Not related to Calvinism, but moral theology and practice in my former denomination.
But for the grace of God, and a few helpful people, I would have gone under. Early on, I almost was reduced to living in my car.
Now about to start receiving SS. I've tried diligently to built back my savings and investments, but I've only had a few years to do it. I'm going to be heavily dependent upon SS to live.
Not a secure place to be, especially in our era of a corrupt and failing government.
I'm leaning on Phil 4:19.
Will be keeping you and your kids in prayer.
Provisionists: As an Arminian I am happy to claim you - I claim you first as brothers and sisters in Christ; and I also happily consider Provisionists my allies. You’re the Great Britain to our America - or maybe it’s the other way around since Arminianism was around first?
I like that analogy! Love the cut of your jib!
Warren so much of what happened to you happened to me too. beginning with my departure from calvinism i lost everything - including my former marriage- due to a biased and unfair court system as well, though she left all her diaries behind that proved multiple times over again that i had done her no harm. my ex’s therapist she had for an entire year before the divorce ended up becoming my therapist due to the way the divorce played out. As a result, the therapist never charged me one time because she felt horrible over what had been done to me and the situation i was left in and wanted to help me get back on my feet.
it’s incredible you can work your entire life just to have everything taken from you. marriage is the only contract in america where people can be rewarded for breaking it. there is little protection for innocent men in these scenarios.
i feel for you, pray for you, and i admire the strength it must take to continue to do podcasts in the middle of all of it. I truly don’t know how you’re doing it. I believe that God is with you.
I came on this discussion at the end and am happy that the brothers are assisting Warren in a challenging time. I will continue to give on a regular basis and I ask all of you to do the same. Drews idea to give up a meal or coffee is such a great recommendation. Hey I'm Charismatic and you all know I have a prosperity gospel so you know I don't have a problem with asking for $. A bit tongue in cheek there but I do believe that God is our provider and I believe in David's declaration of him never seeing the righteous forsaken or his seed begging bread. Also, I'm very much a proponent of how the early church met the needs of their brothers and sisters so much so that no one lacked.
Additionally, another early church practice was the assigning of deacons to assist in the feeding of widows so that the Apostles could devote themselves to study. I've been on a bit of a vacation and started watching some of the Idol Killer channel. I prettie much binge watched them all day. When I consumed intently the one on Total Depravity it knocked my sox off. I knew Warren was a smart dude but I realized his talent fully. This man has a gift from God...I know that's trite and worn but nonetheless true. Again, I suggest we step up to the plate and really support him during this time so that he can get himself upright and financially solvent and be able to pursue further study. We are all so blessed by him and the excellent work he produces via Idol Killer channel. Let's rally to get him up and running and be able to throw the devil in the pit where he belongs from all the adversity, he's brought Warren's way.
Okay now for some comments on this video which was such a great colab with the brothers. I knew about the London Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession but now we have another tired dusty document that has no relevance to us. You talk about dead...as the Calvinists love to....I say not only is it irrelevant, its dead...Dort is Dead.
Eric mentioned that he really didn't care that there are Presbyterian or Reformed churches. I can't disagree more. I was never a Calvinist but my family was and some still are. I can't tell you the hurt, the PTSD I had from the shunning, the marginalization from them. Praise God through much prayer and long suffering it has improved. Some are veering away from it, so its a mix. Its like the phrase that someone uses when they are using a vice and say its not hurting anyone. Oh yes it is. Also its hurtful to the body of Christ. Most of the heresy hunters on You Tube are Calvinists and they are outright vicious--a brood of vipers if you will. What must the world think when it sees all this infighting among Christians. There's no witness to the world of the gospel. I really think in some respects Jesus has removed our lampstand. Another problem is what Kevin Thompson of Beyond the Fundamentals has encountered. The stealth takeover of churches which is happening from an anecdotal note quite a lot. You can imagine as a Charismatic the marginalization I experienced from my family. But the online attack of Charismatics is vicious and vile. I'm not saying our group is perfect but we do not attack people. We might covertly refer to religion (meaning Calvinists) but we don't go on a vicious attack against them. Calvinism is truly is a doctrine of demons and demons don't know how to exegete scripture. Its a carefully packaged, systematic deception.
Final word. I believe were in a 3rd Great Awakening and were in a liminal space. Conversely to what I thought, the 1st and 2nd Great Awakenings were messy. I don't attend the institutionalized form of church ie the Constantinian model. I join myself to the missional and disciple making movement. Were transitioning to a more informal and organic system of the church...a decentralized one. You guys mentioned the making of a disciple and how this traditional model of not being able to ask questions and really become a disciple, a Berean is not fostered. So in this liminal space were in were beginning to see a formation of this organic model. You Tube is part of that but a local influence will be what were transitioning to. You have these models of micro churches and brave cities all in formation. So as were endure all this hashing out of doctrine and ecclesiology perhaps well finally come to know what salvation is without endless debating. Perhaps well simply know who we are and walk it out with confidence and boldness and be the light and salt of the earth.
"Self-canonization" is such an apt term. Love it, I hope it spreads!
Great show everyone!
1:05:02 As the Elect, they've already correctly interpreted the biblical texts for us. Any other interpretation must be heretical and, of course, Pelagian. Therefore, we must comply.
I can't tell if you were joking. 😅
But you just described Gnostic enlightenment
here's to the decline of Calvinism's influence
Amen!!!
Amen to that! It creates more atheists than anything else, as people rightly want nothing to do with Zeucifer, the Zeus-devil hybrid that passes for "God" in Calvinism.
Truly reveals it's gnostic influence of the Demiurge...the evil creator god.
Even as a non-provisionist, I not only heartily believe that Dort is wrong, I also believe that it is a disgrace to both the more broad protestant faith of the earlier dutch reformed church and their two forms of unity.
Praying for you, brother ❤
Thank you!
Hello guys. Nice discussion. I have listened to Warren for a while now but nice to see others having these discussions! One thing about Calvinism I would love to see explored is how far it reaches into churches and belief systems that do not identify as Calvinist or openly express any adherence to the reformed doctrines. I grew up between Methodist and Southern Baptist churches. One thing they had in common was a deep sense of everything happening to us was God. This was very surface level until there was real adversity or tragedy but at those times, there was never a mention of our adversary (the devil) or any human responsibility! It was always "we don't always understand what's happening, but God has a plan" OR "God is in control we'll understand when we get to Heaven" This type of belief really absolves humans of responsibility as if drunk driving or perhaps suicide were part of a larger plan. While many denominations may not embrace the 5 points, they definitely embrace some level of fatalism or determinism. In this respect, I feel like Calvinism's reach is much deeper than we sometime recognize.
Classical Theism that most non Calvinists embrace is a holdover from Calvinism.
Which in turn is a holdover from Rome. (EO is much the same)
Which came from Platonism
My church (non Calvinst) was like the ones you describe.
I had Classical presups that I'd never really thought about. And tbh I'd held these presups before I received Christ. Tells you how pervasive Classical Theism is.😅
When I examined them I had to admit they didn't line up with the God of Scripture, but rather that it had all the entailments of Greek Platonism, (sans the fatalism)
In my church they'd say "the Providence of God)." sometimes.
The rest of the time they held people responsible.
That's actually insane when I think about it.
Agreed, long before I understood much about reformed doctrine, I would often wonder why pastors would say “God is in control” to a family in the midst of a tragedy. They would say this confidently as though it should cause the family to have comfort and love God more.
One mechanism ensures the salvation of some, the damnation of others & operates entirely independent the actions of any.
The ‘eternal decree’
The breadth & depth of damage deterministic belief, thought & action has done in this world is difficult to even contemplate.
I can't do much, but I will be praying for you.
@@petromax4849 thank you!
THE BOYS!
Lookin good and going strong!
Blessings and the love of Christ to y'all 😊
Jesus owned an Accord, although he didn't speak about it. Jesus and his disciples all travelled in one Accord.
41:55
John Piper wants to put me away
Cause I believe in possibilities and that's not okay
My favorite band of all time.
David and Uriah is my go-to counter example for Calvinists standards of predestination and culpability.
It´s basically just a bunch of Calvinists coming together to say it´s bad to not accept Calvinism. It´s literally on the level of "I´m right because I´m right".
If I understand Dort's description of reprobation, it is saying that God did not author Adam's fall and our sinful condition.
Double Predestination/Reprobation would assert God did causes man to fall into sin, but God causes man to be saved.
Doesn't Dort deny that God causes man to fall into sin?
It does, that’s correct. Good eye (there were many more mistakes in this video)
Great and very useful video helping to understand what can or is the attitude of the reformed towards others.
One can try to go a bit further back in history and find such a quote:
“For if, as the heretics think, he (I.w. Paul) had been chosen either by uncertain fate or by the privilege of possessing a superior nature, surely he would never have expressed the fear that, if he were not to hold the restraints on his own body, it could potentially come to pass that he would be re-jected or that woe would be his if he were to cease from proclaiming the gospel.”
This is from the third century. By Origen. First ever in history commentary of Romans. One might think he is polemicizing against the reformed. But nope. There was no reformed back then…
Seems history is repeating itself again and again…
I feel for your position, Fight lawfully for your children.
Drew, McGrew, and Eric too
It's not remotely ecumenical and the vast majority of Christendom rejects it. It should not be considered relevant.
It's potentially topically relevant as it's a historically infamous tipping point in the history of church division.
Though obviously it doesn't even begin to address the modern recalibration of these topics away from Augustinian metaphysics.
Unfortunately, those who cry the loudest get the attention.
@@ravissary79 Eastern Orthodoxy has never functioned within an augustinian paradigm and even Roman Catholicism (especially with its rejection of original guilt) ventures out of it as well. My advice to individuals interested in a patristic approach soteriology is to go to the Greek Church Fathers like Saints Ireneaus, Athanasius, Chrysostom, Cyril of Jerusalem, Cyril of Alexandria, John of Damascus, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Maximus, etc. They offer high level theology tracing back to the Apostles. They completely upend calvinist claims of "non calvinist theology is shallow." They also demonstrate that Augustine functions outside of the patristic consensus and it is Augustine who, to borrow from Calvin, "acts confusedly on the subject."
@@vitaignis5594 I get that it's not relevant in the east, but if you're an arminian or calvinist or provisionist... it is.
The Calvinistic kangaroo court was set up only to condemn Arminians. The one good thing that came from it was the Remonstrants breakdown of Calvinism by the invention of TULIP.
@@jeffpaton9667 awesome thing is, both Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics have condemned calvinist teachings as heretical. Orthodox critiques of Calvinism are especially potent. The Confession of Dositheus is a good read if you are interested in the Orthodox condemnation of calvinism.
@@vitaignis5594 Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism condemn Calvinism... what proof is that?
Find this frustrating. Not clearly presented flashing screens, middle guy talks too much.
Warren,
You all mentioned the concept "that what you do with your body doesn't matter.
They believe they behave rightly because they believe rightly
orthodoxy =/ orthopraxy." all in a negative context.
In general, you appeared to be making an argument on the topic of your action having a hand in salvation?
I want to know however,
Are you advocating the concept of Works-Righteousness?
Or are you claiming that our practice makes us more or less saved?
Like what has been confusing to me as I unpack this is the concept that I genuinely don't know how salvation works anymore.
I used to long ago, or so I thought.
I still know salvation only comes through Yeshua.
But I cannot say exactly how anymore.
PSA was all I knew.
Leaving it behind hurt.
Now I'm not really so sure where to go.
I will NOT become a Wesleyan Arminian again though. My goodness did the fear of God dominate me then and I'll admit I hated it. Living in fear every day of His judgement and my actions accusing or excusing me, I will not live that way again.
I cannot serve Him unless I can have certainty.
What I want more than anything Spiritually, is to believe in Security again.
Can you all help me?
As a struggling brother in Christ whom you helped in pastimes come out of PSA, I entreat you.
Dorf does Calvinism!
Classic Tim Conway! I grew up watching the Carol Burnett show!
@@AndrewKeifer I was wondering what Dorf had to do with Calvinism until I understood what they were saying. Made myself laugh.
It makes sense, given their presuppositions, that they would consider those who believe as they do to be holier than others. How could it be otherwise? God messed up in His decree?
In case you missed my comment during the stream, the channel Protestant Perspective did a response to you on original sin. Interestingly the Canons of Dort were brought up during it.
I heard, but haven't seen it yet. I do plan to check it out, but am aware it was 2+ hours long. Do you have any particular segment, key word or timestamp you feel is more relevant or deserving a response?
@@IdolKillerIt is indeed over two hours. I’m still watching it so will get back to you on specific segments 👌
@@MACHO_CHICO I absolutely plan to respond, as long as there is something there to respond to. I'm sure there is and appreciate your help!
Aren't all Christians who hail from any of the many branches of Christianity that arose after the reformation... Protestants?
It's odd that anyone would use Dort... a council were Protestant group A effectively condemned Protestant group B... is reflective of the "perspective" of "Protestants" in general.
I know its just a name. But it's curiously presumptive.
@@IdolKiller Ok here are some relevant timestamps I picked out. I’m sure you can’t get to all of it which is understandable and honestly there’s probably more I could’ve highlighted, but essentially their view is the Catholic, scholastic understanding of the fall as the loss of original righteousness/justice and a privation theory of evil (the latter of which I hold to). Overall it’s certainly higher grade than that of the usual crowd and significantly closer to your view albeit still problematic.
3:41 Their definition of original sin
7:00 Why they’re doing the video
11:32 They finish reacting to your video and outline their issues
13:55 Nature defined
25:38 Bird analogy for original sin
31:02 Reading Hebrews 2 and why it doesn’t affect the incarnation
37:54 Sin as an accidental property
46:38 Total Depravity defined
52:12 Distinction between innocence and righteousness
56:48 Privation theory of evil explained and the question of Christs nature
1:03:57 Distinction between different types of goods
1:08:51 Reformed quote on original sin
1:16:42 More quotes on sin and substance
1:24:26 Rejection of a sinful essence in man and affirmation of sin as a positive quality
1:43:25 Summary
1:52:34 Reverse Starbucks Fallacy
2:06:34 Federal headship
(I can copy this under the original video if easier)
The apostle Paul was vehemently against the doctrines of reformed theology. He spent a great deal of his words combatting those doctrines. He said to consider those as heretics, who do not repent of those doctrines, after a first and second admonition. Reformed/Calvinist doctrines are extremely harmful to both individual believers and the whole body of Christ. They attack the conscience and subvert the faith of a believer, and destroy relationships, families, and whole churches. They wreak the havoc everywhere they're tolerated.
“A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.” (Tit 3:10-11)
Three Dordts walk into a bar....
I wish I could do my hair like Jimmy Neutron, Warren.... a cool pompadour
I was predestined to not be Calvinist.
At 39:00 - I thought this was about Calvinists, not Jehovah's Witnesses?
I didn't think JWs had the corner on particular election and redemption.
the passing over language is denying equal ultimacy not double predestination.
Can clarify in what way this solves the issue other than bringing clarity to which terms are which?
@@ravissary79 Eric made a big deal of the fact that god choosing the elect meant double predestination and saying that using the terminology of passing over the reprobate didn't solved the issue, i clarified that it doesn't solve the issue because that's not even what's referring to.
@@caiomorino8672 I get that, but on its own, his point stands, he's just got his wires crossed label wise, so it isn't relevant to the label... but how does it ACTUALLY being about equal ultimacy resolve this beyond pointing out this error?
@@ravissary79 i guess i don't know what the concern is at this point if you believe it unjust of god to pass over the lost it seems you have mistaken view of grace.
@@caiomorino8672 huh? 1)- I didn't say that. 2)- that doesn't follow.
*Was the first point of Calvinism changed sometime after Dort?*
If you look in Wikipedia - on the article titled "The Canons of Dort" you will see what appears to be the 5 points of Calvinism in their *ORIGINAL* form.
Take a look at the first of the 5 points - and you will discover it is not "Total Depravity" - but rather "Total Predestination"
If it is TRUE that the council of Dort created the *ORIGINAL* 5 points of Calvinism - and the 1st point was "Total Predestination" then we can assume later Calvinists did not like "Total Predestination" as the 1st point - and changed it to "Total Depravity"
Why would they not like "Total Predestination"?
Because "Total Predestination" as the 1st point - reveals the TRUTH about the doctrine - that man is never granted any SAY and never granted any CONTROL over the state of his nature.
The state of every man's nature - at every nano-second in time - is 100% predestined - and at every nano-second in time - cannot possibly be other than what it was decreed to infallibly be. And man is granted NO SAY and NO CHOICE in the matter.
Every impulse that comes to pass within the human brain is determined by antecedent factors (infallible decree) totally outside of the brain's control.
We can easily understand why Calvinists are obsessed with *OBFUSCATING* that fundamental fact of the doctrine.
Total Depravity functions as a *RED-HERRING* which Calvinists use to *OBFUSCATE* the TRUTH
It allows them to FALSELY attribute the state of man's nature to man - rather than to an infallible decree
Very true!💯👍
There's also the fact that there MUCH more data points (Calvinists LOOOVE data mining) for sinfulness, this TD is a better starting point.
Even though nowhere in Scripture does it say that in spite of statements about mankind's sin, does it say that this prevents choice.
They just hope you don't catch on to that fact.
24:02 Hey, why NOT celebrate cancer?!? 😂
Would you agree that the core tenants of Calvinism is actually worst than the Word of Faith doctrine? 🥴🤔
That's a tough one.
Neither message produces Gospel conversion, but rather people who are already saved get recruited into them
Wish you guys would do videos on Baptist history like you do on Reformed history. The majority of Baptists rejected calvinism, even while past historians labeled them calvinist. However, I can prove beyond doubt that most Baptists 200 yrs ago, held to CORPORATE ELECTION, and rejected both the Reformed and the Arminian view of election. Read this statement from the Eastern Association of Primitive Baptists in 1846
"Can we fellowship the doctrine known as Calvinism, or is it heresy?"
ANSWER: "In answer to the fellowshipping of the doctrine known as Calvinism, or limited atonement, or fatalism, which we believe to be HERESY and should be rejected after scriptural admonition, we do not believe God created the great mass for destruction, or after they were created and fell, that God left them in their helpless state, without offered mercy. We believe God commands all men to repent and promises pardon to the penitent, and we have NO fellowship with that doctrine that God foreordained all that comes to pass, even as some claim that God has predestined even the evil acts of men, and yet holds them guilty for those acts. This compared to the teachings of Christ, is a grievous error not to be tolerated by the saints of God. We believe what God has predestined will come to pass."
I might also add that even many presbyterians have rejected calvinism. the Cumberland Presbyterians and some Free Presbyterians totally reject limited atonement, irresistible grace, unconditional election and perseverance as defined by calvinists
Can you provide the link to this? I have a dear friend in primitive Baptist and they now believe in a form of Reformed theology.
@@matthewford4050 There is no link, I have a copy of their Query Book.. The Eastern District Association still exists and going strong Many historians are ignorant of the fact that there were a LOT of non calvinist Primitive Baptists. Tennessee is full of them. If you are familiar with Cades Cove, that church was in the Original Tennessee Assocation of Primitive Baptists and they were also non calvinist, and they still exist around Maryville Tn. If theres a way to contact you, I am happy to take pics of the Query Book with the statement about calvinism for you. They have a website just google it, which has copies of minutes and their articles of faith, but they dont have the Query Book online. I tried posting the link but youtube deletes it. i have talked with them and they plan on doing it at some point
@@matthewford4050 I might add that Ive been studying Baptist history for 30 years. The Old regular Baptists, Seventh Day Baptists, United Baptists, half of Primtive Baptists,and Separate Baptists are all non calvinist by todays standards, in addition to a majority of Missionary Baptists (which are in individual associations as well as most of the SBC churches)
That must have been a different branch of the Primitive Baptists from the one I have family connections to. One branch of my ancestry were Primitive Baptists throughout the 1800s and they were DEFINITELY Calvinists (to the point that most modern "mainstream" Calvinists would write them off as "Hyper-Calvinists". My first Primitive Baptist ancestor, Nancy Morgan Wright, was a cousin of famous early American frontiersman Daniel Boone and joined the Primitive Baptists alongside Daniel's brother, Squire Boone, in the late 1700s. The family then spent the next 4 generations moving from town to town throughout the states of Indiana, Illinois and Iowa planting Primitive Baptist churches. Finally, in the late 1800s in southwestern Iowa, my great-great grandfather fell in love with an Irish Catholic girl and they eloped. The families of both of them were enraged by the match and disowned them. They ended up joining a Lutheran church, as that seemed to them to be the most reasonable "middle ground" between his Primitive Baptist background and her Roman Catholic one. I must say that I am profoundly grateful the connection with the Primitive Baptists was severed before my time, as they (at least that branch of them) had some seriously whackadoodle beliefs...
@@DamonNomad82 Yes the history of Baptists have not been reported well. Most who teach Baptist history told me I was crazy to think there were Primitive Baptists who held to general atonement and werent calvinists. I had to research and prove them wrong on my own. This tells you that some have a calvinist agenda when reporting our history. The calvinist branch of PB's were not originally hyper calvinists, that developed after the Civil War. When their churches began to dwindle they had to come up with both a false history and false doctrine to explain why they werent growing. They then began to teach "time salvation" which says that hearing and believing the gospel isnt necessary to be saved, and even if the "elect" do hear it, they can reject it and still be elect. Many of them became antinomian. They got that from the Presbyterians who have a similar doctrine. I do have to question one thing you said. There were no Primitive Baptists in the 1700's. The PB's began in the 1830's over whether or not "institutions" were authorized by scripture. When Baptists began creating missions boards, having Sunday Schools, instruments in worship, revivals etc, the PB's rejected all that and split off. Both Calvinist and non calvinist branches still believed that hearing the gospel was necessary for salvation until after the Civil War when the calvinist branch changed their doctrines. The non calvinist branch continued having revivals and evangelizing as they had always done, they just didnt believe in any kinds of boards, but they adopted Sunday Schools and some have instruments in worship and others dont, it isnt a test of fellowship for them. If youre familiar with Cades Cove, that Primitive Baptist church was in the Original Tennessee Assoc of PB's, and they also were non calvinist, along with many others I have documented and visited. Squire Boone was never a PB as he died before the movement began. History does record his a being a calvinist, but remember, ANYONE who held that salvation could not be lost, was labeled a calvinist back then. Thats why history of Baptists is tricky. By todays usage of the word "calvinist" he may not have been one. He was def a Regular Baptist, but many of them rejected limited atonement and irresistibale grace. Youd have to do some serious digging to find out where Boone landed on those points.
Its interesting that 2 dofferent camps that have opposing views of the knowledge of God can unite around each other. This channel and McGrew are untied against Calvinism because they are synergist.
@josephconkle3947 I'd say we're united against Calvinism because we're Christians who believe the truth sets us free and have seen the destruction caused by Calvinism
@@IdolKiller you are quite fond of using hyperbole.
How so, pray tell?
@josephconkle3947 nothing in my previous statement was hyperbolic.
@@IdolKiller elaborate on "the destruction caused by Calvinism ".
@@IdolKiller briefly