This is incredible to have someone talking about this topic. Its very anti-evangelical (I say that NOT ignoring sin) and I wish I would've learned this early on in my walk. Thank you Marty for your service in God's kingdom 🙏
To the person who wrote about being "terrified" after decades of being a believer under this religious system: I see you. That's me, too. And now I've started getting to a place where the lifelong fear (and replies from people in that religious system saying it's clear that I'm not going to Heaven or 'doing salvation right' because of fear and doubt) has started giving way to a resignation that it's always going to feel this way. Just the introduction of this series has me so excited. The segment on Moshe' and "loving salvation" is 🔥. I'm doing my best to keep my expectations in check as you suggested...but that's getting harder by the day. Keep it coming!
Reading this was heartbreaking. Before i assume, what do you think has caused you to worry so much? I'm not sure it is always going to feel that way. I think there's a better way, and I will be praying for you.
I've been there before. As I look back on my journey, what led me from living in fear to living in the freedom of God's love, was really coming to understand God's love. And I'm pretty sure I got there because I was praying and asking God to help me understand his love his love and in his incredible grace and mercy, he has shown me and continues to remind me. I wish you the best on your journey brother and I hope you find ways to enjoy it with God each day 🙂
This series is going to be a real “wing-dinger” to borrow a BEMA phrase. Whether I wind up agreeing with these specific ideas or not, I really appreciate you articulating the conversation Marty.
Perhaps it is this viewpoint - of re-examining what we believe in light of what the original scripture teaches without the added gloss of traditional Christian baggage. The Jewish context has been fundamental to positive growth for me, and the shedding of trauma learned under those same traditions. The way I was originally taught about salvation it was weaponized as a device of exclusion, not as a drawing together of God's people. I still remember the concept that how we think about the end governs our thinking on what happens today from RLotP sermons. Deeply grateful for the wisdom you offer.
Marty, Thank You!! for covering this subject, I'm literally on the edge of my chair, I can't wait for the rest of the series. I sense that I'm on the edge of some life changing information ❤🙏🙏
This is FANTASTIC! I just started a study/paper with my neighbor on SIN, what the word means, where it came from, how does scripture actually use it, what actually happened in the garden and how it affected everything. Wish I could just sit down and talk with you.
Amen brother, the framework and context in whiçh we behold Yah and Yeshua effect so much within the intreption of Salvation. God is Agape. Let's always start here. He (the nation) and individual that is without sin Cast the first stone. Father help us to stop the need to throw stones at each other. Blessings to all Shalom.
You are consistently blowing my mind! The beauty of these questions is that it helps me when family members are judging and concerned about my salvation instead of prioritizing me, I feel like I can have more grace with them. Understanding that they have just been entrenched with love of salvation over love of God, I feel like I can hang in there more and love them like we are called to do. Thank you! Looking forward to this series.
Watching this video series intro stirs up so much thought in me that I feel many people I know and talk to in my faith community are questioning and thinking about. Thank you for taking the time to talk about these things. I’m hoping and praying for humility and wisdom for you and all those that will watch these videos. If there have been ways that Christianity “went off the rails” shortly after Jesus ascended, and if that had set in motion many ways that we have been tempted to try and “be like God” (remind anyone of the garden?) and judge others where that’s not our job, I hope this can help us reframe that and partner with God to help him put the world back in order. Shalom.
Thank you Marty for doing this series. I have been struggling with what all this looks like as I have been studying through BEMA (in James now) - knowing certain ideas are not lining up with my previous ideas but not exactly sure why. Also, struggling to articulate my thoughts. I look forward to watching these videos, studying Scripture and continuing to trust Jesus to lead me more and more into truth.
Marty thank you for this discussion... I handled this in my work in 12 step programs (Celebrate Recovery though not stated within it) I use the balance between Truth and Grace both being within Love! Grace without Truth is permission. Truth without Grace oppression.
The fact you are nervous I bet it means it is probably a good time to ask God to help you learn what he wants you to get out of this study. looking forward to getting out of the boat 🚢 with you! thanks😊
Fundamental to soteriology (to me) is the question: What is the gospel of Jesus? If we have this wrong, our soteriology will be always be off. A great resource for me has been the book: How God Became King by N.T. Wright. Among other things, N.T. Wright examines what the gospel of Jesus is and isn't. Is the version of the gospel that we have been handed really the gospel that Jesus preached?
Amen! This was the focus of that monster series we just finished on the Kingdom. I think people were sensing your exact point as the questions from that series (which routinely focused on the "euangelion") were about soteriology. There's a direct relationship between the two. "If the gospel is about the Kingdom of God, then what does that mean about being saved?"
I'm a really big fan of you marty. I love your work and your ministry. You aren't gonna say anything that makes me think you don't love God. But, I really really want to ask that you back up things you say in this series with historic Christian writings. The worry I have is that you are going to try to reframe our paradigm in a vacuum. I want you to reframe how we think, but I'd like to hear you use some of the people the Christian faith looks to in history. I'm not telling you how to run your channel but i think my concern is that sometimes BEMA feels like it's in a void in relation to historic Christian thought. I am happy you are helping others, love you marty!
Well, just to let you adjust your expectations, I’ve been very clear that I give very little credence to “historic Christian writings.” I think Christianity went off the inspired rails during the Gnostic crisis of the second century when we severed ourselves from our Jewish family into which we had been adopted. So I never attempt to back anything up from those sources and have no intentions to do so. I want to root all my teachings and understandings in the inspired Text, seen and understand through the lens of the Jewish world of the apostles. That is fundamentally what I think we do wrong in Christendom. I appreciate your kind words, but that’s not one of my goals, it’s actually one of the thinks I am attempting to invite us to reconsider. To restate that in a succinct way: BEMA is in a void in relation to historic Christian thought; BEMA attempts to relate to these ideas in historical Jewish thought (not so much modern Judaism, as in the second-temple Jewish world of the apostles).
I affirm historical Christian faith as it has been defined by the creedal expression of orthodoxy, but I dont look to the early church fathers as my check. Just to the Scripture and the apostles teaching to the best of our ability. That isn’t to say I dont deeply respect Christian traditions and perspectives (I most definitely do); they have shaped me. But they are no more authoritative than Jewish midrash would be. Everything held against the Scripture and the person of Jesus.
And just for context as you watch the series, I filmed all of this last year, so nothing I say will be in response to your comments personally. They were all done months ago. Again, I appreciate your kind and respectful words and how you affirmed me. But if clarity is helpful when it comes to objectives, I thought I would speak to that. I know that a lot of seminarians want me to anchor these things in relation to classical theology, but that simply isnt my approach (I address some of my theology reference point in my video BEMA FAQ: Marty’s Theology).
@coveredinhisdust Wow, thank you for the thought out response. I appreciate the clarifications. I think for me personally, BEMA has greatly enriched and changed my life and was a catalyst for a deeper rooting in my faith, and a Jewish rooting in my faith. However, where I'm at now, i've decided historic Christian understanding has a great relevance to me (though not being on par with the bible), and I'm currently moving into a corner of Christendom that reflects that (anglicanism). So, I suppose I'm going to have to wrestle with Christian history, and the jewishness of scripture and how they may interact or contradict. I still am not sure how all of these facits of interpreting the Bible interact. I don't know how much church history should influence my understanding of the Bible. But this is where my journey has led me to now. Bema will certainly continue being part of my journey and It certainly holds a special place in my heart, but I suppose we may depart on this issue specifically, and that's okay.
Where did law come from? Why do we need law? I thought of Cain who murdered his brother and tried to cover it up with God by claiming not to know where Able was. God had mercy. Then to Nimrod who killed a youth because he slighted him and on it goes. Eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not enable us to be full of grace. We seem to have chosen law and fear as the way to live. Praise be to God for His neverending love and mercy.
This is incredible to have someone talking about this topic. Its very anti-evangelical (I say that NOT ignoring sin) and I wish I would've learned this early on in my walk. Thank you Marty for your service in God's kingdom 🙏
To the person who wrote about being "terrified" after decades of being a believer under this religious system: I see you. That's me, too. And now I've started getting to a place where the lifelong fear (and replies from people in that religious system saying it's clear that I'm not going to Heaven or 'doing salvation right' because of fear and doubt) has started giving way to a resignation that it's always going to feel this way.
Just the introduction of this series has me so excited. The segment on Moshe' and "loving salvation" is 🔥. I'm doing my best to keep my expectations in check as you suggested...but that's getting harder by the day. Keep it coming!
Reading this was heartbreaking. Before i assume, what do you think has caused you to worry so much? I'm not sure it is always going to feel that way. I think there's a better way, and I will be praying for you.
I've been there before. As I look back on my journey, what led me from living in fear to living in the freedom of God's love, was really coming to understand God's love. And I'm pretty sure I got there because I was praying and asking God to help me understand his love his love and in his incredible grace and mercy, he has shown me and continues to remind me. I wish you the best on your journey brother and I hope you find ways to enjoy it with God each day 🙂
This series is going to be a real “wing-dinger” to borrow a BEMA phrase. Whether I wind up agreeing with these specific ideas or not, I really appreciate you articulating the conversation Marty.
Perhaps it is this viewpoint - of re-examining what we believe in light of what the original scripture teaches without the added gloss of traditional Christian baggage. The Jewish context has been fundamental to positive growth for me, and the shedding of trauma learned under those same traditions. The way I was originally taught about salvation it was weaponized as a device of exclusion, not as a drawing together of God's people. I still remember the concept that how we think about the end governs our thinking on what happens today from RLotP sermons. Deeply grateful for the wisdom you offer.
Marty, Thank You!! for covering this subject, I'm literally on the edge of my chair, I can't wait for the rest of the series. I sense that I'm on the edge of some life changing information ❤🙏🙏
Yes! Many days and nights have been lost to worry and anxiety over my family's "salvation". I'm looking forward to this conversation.
This is FANTASTIC! I just started a study/paper with my neighbor on SIN, what the word means, where it came from, how does scripture actually use it, what actually happened in the garden and how it affected everything. Wish I could just sit down and talk with you.
Amen brother, the framework and context in whiçh we behold Yah and Yeshua effect so much within the intreption of Salvation. God is Agape. Let's always start here. He (the nation) and individual that is without sin Cast the first stone. Father help us to stop the need to throw stones at each other. Blessings to all Shalom.
You are consistently blowing my mind!
The beauty of these questions is that it helps me when family members are judging and concerned about my salvation instead of prioritizing me, I feel like I can have more grace with them. Understanding that they have just been entrenched with love of salvation over love of God, I feel like I can hang in there more and love them like we are called to do. Thank you! Looking forward to this series.
Watching this video series intro stirs up so much thought in me that I feel many people I know and talk to in my faith community are questioning and thinking about. Thank you for taking the time to talk about these things. I’m hoping and praying for humility and wisdom for you and all those that will watch these videos. If there have been ways that Christianity “went off the rails” shortly after Jesus ascended, and if that had set in motion many ways that we have been tempted to try and “be like God” (remind anyone of the garden?) and judge others where that’s not our job, I hope this can help us reframe that and partner with God to help him put the world back in order. Shalom.
Thanks for stepping out to talk about this topic.
These are awesome questions. Thank you for doing this
Thank you Marty for doing this series. I have been struggling with what all this looks like as I have been studying through BEMA (in James now) - knowing certain ideas are not lining up with my previous ideas but not exactly sure why. Also, struggling to articulate my thoughts. I look forward to watching these videos, studying Scripture and continuing to trust Jesus to lead me more and more into truth.
Marty thank you for this discussion... I handled this in my work in 12 step programs (Celebrate
Recovery though not stated within it) I use the balance between Truth and Grace both being within Love! Grace without Truth is permission. Truth without Grace oppression.
Intrigued and also "super nervous" - ready to dig in!❤
The fact you are nervous I bet it means it is probably a good time to ask God to help you learn what he wants you to get out of this study. looking forward to getting out of the boat 🚢 with you! thanks😊
Preach!!!!!!!!!!
How do you balance Phil 2:12 with where fear and "being terrified" falls into understanding the gospel?
Fundamental to soteriology (to me) is the question: What is the gospel of Jesus? If we have this wrong, our soteriology will be always be off. A great resource for me has been the book: How God Became King by N.T. Wright. Among other things, N.T. Wright examines what the gospel of Jesus is and isn't. Is the version of the gospel that we have been handed really the gospel that Jesus preached?
Amen! This was the focus of that monster series we just finished on the Kingdom. I think people were sensing your exact point as the questions from that series (which routinely focused on the "euangelion") were about soteriology. There's a direct relationship between the two.
"If the gospel is about the Kingdom of God, then what does that mean about being saved?"
I'm a really big fan of you marty. I love your work and your ministry. You aren't gonna say anything that makes me think you don't love God. But, I really really want to ask that you back up things you say in this series with historic Christian writings. The worry I have is that you are going to try to reframe our paradigm in a vacuum. I want you to reframe how we think, but I'd like to hear you use some of the people the Christian faith looks to in history. I'm not telling you how to run your channel but i think my concern is that sometimes BEMA feels like it's in a void in relation to historic Christian thought. I am happy you are helping others, love you marty!
Well, just to let you adjust your expectations, I’ve been very clear that I give very little credence to “historic Christian writings.” I think Christianity went off the inspired rails during the Gnostic crisis of the second century when we severed ourselves from our Jewish family into which we had been adopted. So I never attempt to back anything up from those sources and have no intentions to do so. I want to root all my teachings and understandings in the inspired Text, seen and understand through the lens of the Jewish world of the apostles. That is fundamentally what I think we do wrong in Christendom. I appreciate your kind words, but that’s not one of my goals, it’s actually one of the thinks I am attempting to invite us to reconsider.
To restate that in a succinct way:
BEMA is in a void in relation to historic Christian thought; BEMA attempts to relate to these ideas in historical Jewish thought (not so much modern Judaism, as in the second-temple Jewish world of the apostles).
I affirm historical Christian faith as it has been defined by the creedal expression of orthodoxy, but I dont look to the early church fathers as my check. Just to the Scripture and the apostles teaching to the best of our ability.
That isn’t to say I dont deeply respect Christian traditions and perspectives (I most definitely do); they have shaped me. But they are no more authoritative than Jewish midrash would be. Everything held against the Scripture and the person of Jesus.
And just for context as you watch the series, I filmed all of this last year, so nothing I say will be in response to your comments personally. They were all done months ago. Again, I appreciate your kind and respectful words and how you affirmed me. But if clarity is helpful when it comes to objectives, I thought I would speak to that.
I know that a lot of seminarians want me to anchor these things in relation to classical theology, but that simply isnt my approach (I address some of my theology reference point in my video BEMA FAQ: Marty’s Theology).
@coveredinhisdust Wow, thank you for the thought out response. I appreciate the clarifications. I think for me personally, BEMA has greatly enriched and changed my life and was a catalyst for a deeper rooting in my faith, and a Jewish rooting in my faith.
However, where I'm at now, i've decided historic Christian understanding has a great relevance to me (though not being on par with the bible), and I'm currently moving into a corner of Christendom that reflects that (anglicanism). So, I suppose I'm going to have to wrestle with Christian history, and the jewishness of scripture and how they may interact or contradict. I still am not sure how all of these facits of interpreting the Bible interact. I don't know how much church history should influence my understanding of the Bible. But this is where my journey has led me to now.
Bema will certainly continue being part of my journey and It certainly holds a special place in my heart, but I suppose we may depart on this issue specifically, and that's okay.
Where did law come from? Why do we need law? I thought of Cain who murdered his brother and tried to cover it up with God by claiming not to know where Able was. God had mercy. Then to Nimrod who killed a youth because he slighted him and on it goes. Eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not enable us to be full of grace. We seem to have chosen law and fear as the way to live. Praise be to God for His neverending love and mercy.
What are you attempting to say