Looking forward to the next conversation. It's interesting how much can change with even a slight shift on decentralizing the "what happens when I die" problem. ❤
As I listen and begin to try and see things from a different perspective, I can hear that fundamentalist voice from my upbringing constantly saying "Yeah, but..." and all of the proof texts that I was given over the decades start coming to mind. But I can sense that that voice has shifted off to the side a bit. It's a start. I can't wait for the next part of this conversation.
thank you for doing this. I am in my last semester of undergrrat bible college. The word soteriology came up in a Mcgrath reading , I had no idea what the author was talking about. Now I do.. well kind of. cheers.
Good word. I believe we (in the West) focus more on individual sin because we live in a guilt/innocence culture. So we contextualize the gospel to address that. This is not wrong to do. However, it looks like we are shifting into an honor/shame culture. So a shift in our contextualizing may be needed.
I’m digging what you’re putting down. Romans makes more sense when you look at atonement as the work God is doing for nations to be brought under his reign, not just individuals. This used to be a puzzle for me: how were people like Joseph and Simeon described as righteous before Jesus atoned for their sins? Did they need the Cross, if they were already considered righteous? I knew the answer was yes, but I didn’t know why. It’s yes because the Cross creates the new community of faith that fulfills the promise to Abraham. So as righteous as someone like Daniel was, he didn’t have that new creation identity and purpose, which is why his story is not about him evangelizing the Babylonians and creating covenant communities of proselytes. Daniel was an inspirational but isolated light flickering in the dominion of darkness. There wasn’t enough Daniels for the nation of Israel to be a light to lighten the gentiles, because of the universal problem of the flesh. That’s why Daniel grieves in Daniel chapter 9 and he see himself as apart of the community that has sinned and needs to redeemed. (Verse 8: “Open shame belongs to us”)
I look forward to this series and some clarity. At this point in the conversation I think God’s truths are fractal in nature, the same, true and just as important on a personal or cosmic level.
I hear what you're saying. I live and work in the education world. I care about the individual students I'm teaching , but there is a larger discussion about curriculum and then an even larger discussion about public education in our nation. And do we match up with those of other countries? I had never considered this topic before. Thank you for enlightening all of us, particularly me. 😁
Fascinating. As someone who was brought up in and with an evangelical worldview, I’m somewhat familiar with historical views of the traditional “personal sin” aspects of soteriology. I’m curious about this conversation historically. Who were the people teaching this in the last? From what religious traditions? This is compelling and I’d love see where the traditional evangelical view “won out,” for lack of a better term. Much to think about and read!
Oh, now we're into it. Ha ha ha. Yes, bring the Bible into us rather than us into the Bible. Did some study on this and the difference between salvation, justification and sanctification. It seemed more like God had salvation covered and it was more about justification, or righteousness and partnering with God to put the world back together. I started questioning our big proof-text of Acts 2. These were at least mostly Torah observant Jews. What did they need to be saved from? As I read the text, they were already saved, because of the covenants. But they needed to become part of this new revelation that could now include the whole world.
I agree with everything and it's all helpful. My question is if everything was contaminated or ruptured by sin then isn't the cause of all that the sin of a man and woman? Why should their sin infect the whole universe?
My son and I are going to read through Lord of the Rings together. I just finished watching the trilogy. It is interesting that the movies have the same undertones about the corruption of creation by evil.
I've heard that "sin" means "missed the mark". Like you're aiming for something and fall short. I'm questioning that now and wrestling with how that concept applies to all of creation. This gave me a lot to think about.
The problem comes from not understanding the beginning. If you think counter to Isaiah 45:18 that God doesn’t create anything void? Then you think Gen 1:1-2 means the earth was created void? There by losing the story of Lucifer’s rebellion? If you lose that then you don’t think there were angels with God when in Gen 1:28 says let us create man in our own image, you think it’s only trinity? And so you can’t believe that Ecclesiastes 12:6 that when you die your soul goes back to God. It’s why people would explain to their children “your grandma became an angel” and if you don’t believe that way then you really don’t understand the rebellion, you don’t understand how they were deceived which will be how Satan deceives you, and you can’t fully know what God really is talking about when he wants your love, if you love him you’ll work for him out of love, you will be loyal which will require faith, faith against those who would deceive you in the manners that Lucifer deceived 1/3 of Gods children and played on their pride!
Saved from what? Jesus knocks on a door. The person asks Jesus why are you here? He responds I'm here to save you. What are you here to save me from? Jesus answers and says. I'm here to save you from what I'm going to do to you if you don't answer this door! This seems to be the narrative of many many church's. Remember perfect love cast out all fear. My bible says this. John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Shalom and Agape to all.
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Looking forward to the next conversation. It's interesting how much can change with even a slight shift on decentralizing the "what happens when I die" problem. ❤
As I listen and begin to try and see things from a different perspective, I can hear that fundamentalist voice from my upbringing constantly saying "Yeah, but..." and all of the proof texts that I was given over the decades start coming to mind. But I can sense that that voice has shifted off to the side a bit. It's a start. I can't wait for the next part of this conversation.
Me too 😁
thank you for doing this. I am in my last semester of undergrrat bible college. The word soteriology came up in a Mcgrath reading , I had no idea what the author was talking about. Now I do.. well kind of. cheers.
Awesome! It really puts things in perspective for me! Thank you!
Good word. I believe we (in the West) focus more on individual sin because we live in a guilt/innocence culture. So we contextualize the gospel to address that. This is not wrong to do. However, it looks like we are shifting into an honor/shame culture. So a shift in our contextualizing may be needed.
Thx Marty, this conversation was helpful
I’m digging what you’re putting down. Romans makes more sense when you look at atonement as the work God is doing for nations to be brought under his reign, not just individuals. This used to be a puzzle for me: how were people like Joseph and Simeon described as righteous before Jesus atoned for their sins? Did they need the Cross, if they were already considered righteous? I knew the answer was yes, but I didn’t know why. It’s yes because the Cross creates the new community of faith that fulfills the promise to Abraham. So as righteous as someone like Daniel was, he didn’t have that new creation identity and purpose, which is why his story is not about him evangelizing the Babylonians and creating covenant communities of proselytes. Daniel was an inspirational but isolated light flickering in the dominion of darkness. There wasn’t enough Daniels for the nation of Israel to be a light to lighten the gentiles, because of the universal problem of the flesh. That’s why Daniel grieves in Daniel chapter 9 and he see himself as apart of the community that has sinned and needs to redeemed. (Verse 8: “Open shame belongs to us”)
Excellent tutorial. This video is a rarity, but really essential to understanding YHVH's Will.
Thank you. Great stuff.
I look forward to this series and some clarity. At this point in the conversation I think God’s truths are fractal in nature, the same, true and just as important on a personal or cosmic level.
I hear what you're saying. I live and work in the education world. I care about the individual students I'm teaching , but there is a larger discussion about curriculum and then an even larger discussion about public education in our nation. And do we match up with those of other countries? I had never considered this topic before. Thank you for enlightening all of us, particularly me. 😁
Fascinating. As someone who was brought up in and with an evangelical worldview, I’m somewhat familiar with historical views of the traditional “personal sin” aspects of soteriology. I’m curious about this conversation historically. Who were the people teaching this in the last? From what religious traditions? This is compelling and I’d love see where the traditional evangelical view “won out,” for lack of a better term.
Much to think about and read!
Oh, now we're into it. Ha ha ha. Yes, bring the Bible into us rather than us into the Bible. Did some study on this and the difference between salvation, justification and sanctification. It seemed more like God had salvation covered and it was more about justification, or righteousness and partnering with God to put the world back together. I started questioning our big proof-text of Acts 2. These were at least mostly Torah observant Jews. What did they need to be saved from? As I read the text, they were already saved, because of the covenants. But they needed to become part of this new revelation that could now include the whole world.
I agree with everything and it's all helpful. My question is if everything was contaminated or ruptured by sin then isn't the cause of all that the sin of a man and woman? Why should their sin infect the whole universe?
My son and I are going to read through Lord of the Rings together. I just finished watching the trilogy. It is interesting that the movies have the same undertones about the corruption of creation by evil.
I've heard that "sin" means "missed the mark". Like you're aiming for something and fall short. I'm questioning that now and wrestling with how that concept applies to all of creation. This gave me a lot to think about.
The problem comes from not understanding the beginning. If you think counter to Isaiah 45:18 that God doesn’t create anything void? Then you think Gen 1:1-2 means the earth was created void? There by losing the story of Lucifer’s rebellion? If you lose that then you don’t think there were angels with God when in Gen 1:28 says let us create man in our own image, you think it’s only trinity? And so you can’t believe that Ecclesiastes 12:6 that when you die your soul goes back to God. It’s why people would explain to their children “your grandma became an angel” and if you don’t believe that way then you really don’t understand the rebellion, you don’t understand how they were deceived which will be how Satan deceives you, and you can’t fully know what God really is talking about when he wants your love, if you love him you’ll work for him out of love, you will be loyal which will require faith, faith against those who would deceive you in the manners that Lucifer deceived 1/3 of Gods children and played on their pride!
Saved from what? Jesus knocks on a door. The person asks Jesus why are you here? He responds I'm here to save you. What are you here to save me from? Jesus answers and says. I'm here to save you from what I'm going to do to you if you don't answer this door! This seems to be the narrative of many many church's. Remember perfect love cast out all fear. My bible says this.
John 3:17
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Shalom and Agape to all.