You can have more contact marks and still get ms65 grade if the strike and/or luster is above average. Grading is not based only on surface preservation (ie contact marks and wear).
I've stopped worrying about perfect grading bought unc Morgans 4_5$ when I was a kid BY THE POUND .SOLD SOME 24$ ALL remaining 🤔 FREE.now . I'm 80 yrs young.
Late to the video here but I agree with you 💯 on the plus grading and where it would serve a more useful purpose. Thanks for sliding thru so many 65/66 examples as well. I believe you’re spot on with the assessments! Cheers
Luster and over all eye appeal are the two ending factors when the 4th judge on the committee finalizes the grade. I always use the same concept when purchasing a coin. Just like nicely toned high grade coins adds much flavor and value to a particular grade. I don’t buy grades, I buy the coin! I would pick an ms62 over a 66 if I felt like that coin had the x factor for me.
Thank you Daniel...Well Said !!! Frankly I have seen Morgans graded MS62 less "Cheekey" than some of those graded 65 that you showed us. I am with you all the way the services can do better, especially with what they charge...
When I buy the first thing I look for is the grade. Now if a dealer lays out a dozen MS-65’s and a dozen of 66’s, I may find one or two I would buy due to eye appeal. Not all 65’s & 66’s are equal in appearance, however there is a standard for those grades. That’s why I cherry pick. I would rather pay a little more for an MS-65 that looks more like a 66, because if and or when I sell it I could get a little more for it. I have even bought a few MS-64’s that look like MS-65. So l always buy the coin & not the holder. Like Daniel says to compare is a smart thing. Great video Daniel! Hope you start your own grading service or perhaps you could apply your own sticker like “CAC” does to help us out with your knowledge and experience as I agree with you. Good luck and looking forward you you next endeavor.
When you look at a coin in a holder, you have to ask yourself (i) if you are in agreement with the grade, and (ii) what +/- 1 point (or even a +) does to the price of the coin. I always look very hard at a coin in a holder in which 1 point less than the stated grade lowers the coin price by more than $100 (say). What always perturbs me is how the coin grading services can put an MS-65 on a coin which is so strongly toned, even blackened, that only a small percentage of the original surface is visible. I would suggest that grading services, when they do so, put an OS (occluded surface) or something to that effect to indicate that they believe the surface is pristine underneath the crud. I do not despise strongly toned coins, but I would never pay the same price as a brilliant one of the same in an identical holder. When it comes time to sell, dealers very well tell one that a toned coin is too ugly to sell at fully price.
Daniel, THANK YOU. I love Morgan's (big surprise huh)...I saw no difference between the grades 65-66. Same marks on neck, same on face, feathers showing marks...Watching your video's is my coin college because you teach, demonstrate, and help us learn. Good work!
Wow I'm not a grader at all but understand where your comeing from.Most all those 66 grades except for a few had as many marks on cheek an neck as the 65's.Also couple on back of the breast were worse on the 66's.So I see exactly what u mean.Also agree that they should grade more in between like the forty rather than going up 5 grades an skipping in between like 42, 43 etc.Be good to see what u have up your sleeve on how these can be graded more accurate,Good vedio like all yours have really been learning.Thanks for your free service, an good job my Freind !
Thank you for showing the differences and I agree with you on the personal opinions. The coin graders NGC, PCGS, ANACS, IGC all of them need to really get back to the standard of grading coins. I have an 1896 Morgan from NGC that looks a lot better than your MS65's and mine is graded MS64. I really think the business has gotten so big that the graders are rushing through and not really stopping to recheck themselves on the standard of grading. Hold to that standard and keep your opinion out of it. I think if they read and truly eyeball the standard for grading, the coins would come out with correct grades not an opinion, and certainly not miss-grade the coin. I did get mad one time and sent quite a few of them back to be regraded, about 1/2 of the coins I sent in were regraded UP....... need to get it right the first time. I have lost confidence in professionally grading, it's a money game and you get harsh graders and easy graders. It need to be put back in check where you get CORRECT graders. Again thank you very much for this video. Have a blessed year
Daniel I really appreciate how candid you are about the grading process. Maybe you could do something similar to CAC. Ive always thought that if someone did a grade agreement or disagreement with a written explanation as to why the grade is or is not what it should be. Putting a sticker in is one thing but actually speaking as to why it is what it is would be something different and more beneficial. Example, 65+ exceptional strike and lustre or 65+ shouldnt be because of a weak strike. Different color stickers to signify different points of reason. I dont know just my thoughts.
I know they do a bit of averaging when the two sides are of different grades, the reverses may be saving some of those. That last one should be a 67 compared to the others, lol. That's a much better way of showing the coins, btw.
I totally agree. I hate the + grade because most sellers expect to sell them for halfway between the grades. That said, per PCGS standards, 60% of the grade is supposed to be contact marks, 15% luster, 15% strike, and 10% overall eye appeal. Drive me nuts too....especially strike and contact marks.
I agree with a lot of the posts here. The grading standards have really went down at PCGS but on the other hand NGC has stepped up a bit. I find NGC coins to be in better condition as compared to the same coin and grade at PCGS. People like PCGS, it will always command a premium over NGC but as everybody knows buy the coin and not the holder. I have also noticed by talking to many dealers over the years that if you send in bulk submissions you're more likely to get better grades as opposed to sending in single coins. That alone is not cool, they're trying to keep the Dealer's business so they give them a higher grade meanwhile the little guy gets the lower grade! The coin and the grade are the same it does not matter who owns the coin? There's just so much politics involved, it's really driven me away.
I just bought a MS65 Morgan 1881S and I opened the parcel not two minutes before I clicked on this video. It's in a PCGS Gold Shield holder so you can look up the cert# (39184079) at the PCGS website. In fact I paid a small premium for the coin because of the quality of the photos provided. I think it's a 65/66 on the obverse and a 66 on the reverse. The strike and luster are both outstanding and there's little die wear. But lots of people choose the 1881S for type sets because there are so many nice ones available. I suppose there's room for argument but if that's coin's not at least a 65, then Joe Biden doesn't have Alzheimer's disease.
I agree that there should be some, any disclosure to why this coin graded at this and that coin graded at that. At very least an explanation as to why a coin received a Details grade or how it was determined to have been cleaned if it isn't obvious of course. I can see a coin app or grading software coming in the not to distant future where you coin dealer can scan a coin (in real time) and It determining the actual, incontrovertible grade and setting a price, I reach into my wallet, pay the man and I walk out without any doubt when putting it in my collection. Me, I'd gladly pay a premium for that. Where in any of that is there a problem?
Great job Daniel! The last coin which was MS66 was clearly higher quality than the MS65's you showed. You clearly pointed out the differences between grades.
From what I have learned from you and others, the grade is determined by whether the damage was at the mint or PMD. Bag marks, rubs, etc that occurred AT THE MINT do not affect the grade (but it should). Where PMD DOES affect the grade (again, it should). Yes, there is a lot of room for improvement and maybe a new grading system needed. Maybe a hybrid that grades the MINT STATE vs circulated on different scales just as business strike and proof are two different scales?
There are a lot of chatter marks on some of those. Even though these coins are in great condition, this is a great demonstration of dated judgment and new acceptance of similar outlooks.
I agree Daniel that there is too much subjectivity in grading, with inconsistencies between different graders and possibly even who and which price/priority level the coins are submitted to the grading companies. On a different note, I appreciate the use of the tripod mounted camera when showing the coins. You don't experience the focus issues that occur when you just hold the coin up to the camera.
Clearly we have reached a state in computer and digital photography technology where the abilities of the Mark I Human Eyeball even one coupled to the human supercomputer (Brain) are outmatched. And though computers require an programmed algorithm to assess the visual appearance of an object, require regular maintenance, and are dependent on electrical power source to operate, they also do not fatigue and make errors related to fatigue like humans do. This is a great video Daniel--and reinforces for me (a novice collector) to examine the marks/chatter on a coin personally for each and every coin, to make sure that it is pleasing to my eye and assess it myself and not just buy it based on grade printed on the slab by grading company. I seem to be able to see the difference btw a lot of MS60 or MS62 Morgans and an MS 64 Morgan, but sometime MS63s look as good as MS64s and sometimes MS64s look as good as MS65s. This is really frustrating. It makes me wonder if the big grading companies have become so corporately large and are stuck in their old school grading methods with Human Mark I eyeballs operated by different brains, and they are grading so many coins with limited manpower, that they really don't spend adequate time assessing each coin to be certain they are being more consistent, in effort to just "move the meat" so to speak, to keep up with the income flowing in for their services. For what they charge to grade a coin, there SHOULD be more consistency, though as with any other human vision dependent endeavor, there will always be some mistakes, grader having a bad or stressful day, etc. And it always allows the opening to questions of favoritism (favoring big coin dealers/corporate coin sellers who submit massive quantities of coins over the individual collector or small coin shop operator). Sometimes even well run, well organized companies lose their corporate quality control when they get large--especially when they don't adapt their processes to make use of better technology to keep up with demand. To me, numismatics seems ripe for introduction of automated computerized grading--and maybe they can still keep human eyeballs involved by having a human grader briefly review the coin after it has been examined and graded by computer, to make sure it appears to fit the mark (and prevent some gross malfunction of computer system from getting out the door without being corrected). Also human reviewer could possibly add a star for "extra good eye appeal" a human touch, albeit still subjective, to the grade. As to coins that were previously graded and slabbed by a coin grading company, I think nature would take its course--some owners might choose to crack them out and resubmit them, some might not given that it may result in lower grade and choose to leave them in the older slab. Over time, this would evolve and work out. As newer buyers and collectors enter the market and purchase coins, they will have option to decide whether or not they buy a coin in an older slab, based on their own judgement as to what they are willing to pay for it, and with some experience in making visual comparisons to more modern computer graded coins.
Hey Daniel, I just wanted to say hi and I think that your advice is on point and I have learned sooo much about every single type of coins especially when it comes to grading my coins. But why when you send your coins in to be graded by PCGS and you can see your reflection in the Morgan Silver Dollar from 3 inches away why doesn't it get a DMPL or PL grade your coin?? Thanks again for all of your videos they are great and I wouldn't know half of what I know about coins now if I hadn't of watched them. -Thanks again Daniel a huge fan
the answer to your question would be the degree of haziness in the fields that can block uniform reflectivity! I think thats what the grading companies look at.
I agree with you 100% and sadly I think your name matters when getting coins graded, if you are by chance a highroller or part the sunset collection for example well you're going to get better grades than JoBlo regardless of whether his grade is better than the big guys or friends and the grading companies etc
@@josephgerace1966 I just think that these third-party graders control the market as far as pricing goes. I think it's who you are and who you know that will get you the grade you're looking for. Sadly that's just the way it is and nothing will change until a new type of grading service or standard is put into place to help control the market and the graders to start getting it right the first time since there are thousands and thousands of dollars riding on a + or 1 point difference . Grading is subjective and unfortunately they don't give you a reason why they graded your coin an MS66 instead of 67. If you're a high-end dealer or auction house etc, think it would be a different outcome IMHO.
Great video Dan!!! Seeing multiple exqmples like that, all graded the same, is definitely beneficial to anyone sharpening their grading skills. I also agree 100% where Id have a REALLY hard time accepting the grade given to the coin in the holder. All part of the game. I also agree totally that thete should be a technology based aspect involved in the grading procedures. A 2 part grade, 1 based on a strictly technical basis where a computer compares the details of a base "pefect" master example against the submission, and then a human grade using a formula of eye appeal, nuance of any imperfections ( like location of a ding, field or cheek), etc....or even just a grade by how its done now even..then either combine the grades for a final grade or have the 2 grades seperate. Any way ya slice it, theres gotta be something less subjective available going forward. The technology is here. Its time.... Ok...Great video!! Thank you for the hard work!!!
For what I heard is #1 looks at coin and says MS64 then goes to #2 looks at coin and says MS64 then coin goes out MS64 but if #1 says MS64 and #2 says MS65 then it goes to #3 and says MS65 it goes out MS65 but comes down to what someone thinks the coin is and we are all human.
Gregory Arbuckle I’m finding that’s a universal statement. we’re all human none of us a perfect so this applies to grading as well. I hope something can be done about this.
The 1900 65 was better then the 66! In some regard it scares the crap out of me to introduce a new grading system as it would probably devalue 75% of the coins out there and impact people financially. I have a 1921 Peace MS 66 that may not make that grade under a new standard. That would be a few thousand loss. Not saying that’s right, but a defined standard would definitely impact a great deal of coins value.
An aside question! How did such coins get to us in such good condition? Did they spend all those years enclosed in bags? In 1878, such a coin would have been too much needed for living expenses for the average person to have laid it back.
Congress set mintage requirements well above what was actually needed for commerce so many silver dollars often sat in storage after being minted rather than getting circulated because of the mandated overproduction.
Excellent topic. I would like to see some sort of smart technology involved in grading. It looks like one is buying the slab first, then the coin. Don't want to sound like a conspiracist, but it seems like the companies are controlling the number of coins receiving certain grades. I would not like to think deals are being made with dealers to guarantee a certain percentage of their submissions receive gem grades. No, I am sure I am wrong about that. 😈😉
If A.I. can “read” a hundred written samples to generate a consensus, it can do the same with hundreds of photographs. Between the top 4 grading companies, there’s plenty of photos to generate a consensus of grades.
I'm in complete agreement with you. There's got to be a better, more consistent grading system than my 1972 Photo Grade book, and a person's opinion. The difference in price between a 64 and 65 can be significant. The last MS 64 Morgan I got from you would be a 65 in my eyes all day long. The old Photo Grade is fine for looking at circulated coins and deciding on a grade for myself, but it's time for an upgrade, especially when it comes to grading services.
I agree, I have seen the same thing and I couldn't grade a coin to save my life. But, I can see things that should not be on a MS65 or MS66 and others. Each type of coin also has different points to grade them correctly. As I said I could not grade a coin, but can see obvious marks, dings and scratches.
it seems to me that the 66 coins have a better field and strike and a few less bag marks then the 65s i would be in faver of a better grading standard for morgan dollars there so hard to grade because every single on has bag marks
Really disappointing to see CAC put a sticker on an overgraded morgan. They're supposed to be the validating middle man to prevent buying lowend or overgraded coins. I'd say from what I've seen they usually get it right but still very disappointing
@@JASN-oj5qu I like CAC coins and they save me time because the average CAC coin is better than the average non-CAC coin. But yeah, there are occasional dogs in those holders. 10/7/20
I have bought some graded coins just so I can learn grading. So I am a beginner on this and I figured there is a slight differences between grades. They probably should of been advancing their system a long time ago.
I totally agree with you about the whole grading process. I'm confused, and there really doesn't seem to be a real 'standard'. I see coins graded one thing, and then I have one that looks much better....but it gets a lesser grade. I have Morgans that look much better than the MS65's you are showing, and yet they get passed off as MS60's for some reason. I've just decided to forgo the expense of sending coins in because it's all so subjective.
Not one 66, ‘cept the last one. It’s disappointing cause of the price differences. But it was a good lesson. I enjoyed it. I’m actually learning how to grade Morgans watchin these videos. Thanks again!
I've heard from many dealers over the years that the grading companies, especially NGC and PCGS, favor the large dealers. I.e., the dealers who are submitting thousands of coins each year are more likely to get the higher grades. Even worse if a private person submits a coin for grading. It makes sense, but I don't like it. Coming up with a set, fair standard would be wonderful.
A 100 point grading system.. 25 points eye appeal, 25 points strike, 25 points luster. 25 points marks or bag damage..Do this to observe and reverse..divide the total by 2.... so 98 on obverse and 90 reverse equals a 94 coin..
I agree but to get NGC, PCGS. and CAC to agree to a standard and create a computer program would be a great task. It could be done but it would be difficult to come yo agreement. Then you would have computer geaded and human graded. But you are correct.
Daniel, I get what you are saying about Grading, what I cannot understand as a small time buyer is about buying some ungraded coins vs Graded Coins. These Graded Coins in particular are bargains for a small time buyer: 1. A PGCS/NGC MS70 or PR70 First Strike Silver Roosevelt. I have bought these for $7.00 on Ebay! Why do they get these graded? PGCS would charge me $24.00 to get the dime graded, ANACS lowest at $12 IF they were grading coins right now they are not. 2. “Improperly Clean” in either AU or MS Details by PGCS, NGC, ANACS, or ICG can be real bargains. The 1892 Columbia Expo PGCS AU Details “Improperly Cleaned” for $14.92 on Ebay I bought recently is a case in point, Beautiful Coin. 3. The one I am still amazed at is American Silver Eagles, I have seen you and other Coin Shops selling MS69 and MS70 of the 4 major grading companies from $35-$40 each, so what if with a magnifying glass they are not Perfect, the best price for a person just buying one coin w PayPal or a CC for a 2020 American Silver Eagle BU is $26.10, but when you get to the checkout they want $7.77 for shipping! Then you have to pay for grading! Also, some AU58’s do look nice to the naked eye.
Didn't PCGS try to develop a computer to grade coins. I remember seeing a video about it but can't remember where. The computer was unable to consistently produce the correct gradings for coins as there was to many different factors to take into account. ie, toning or refraction from the coins surface on different angles. So PCGS found that people were able take these factors into account & do a better job. I agree with you Daniel about the grade of some coins & hope that someday we'll be able to get a more consistent grading system.
What I hate is toned coins that have gouges in the cheeks in the feathers in the fields toned like on the PCGS is calendar prime example Min state 68 plus that coin is not a 68 plus is tone it's covering all the marks are but if you look close at the picture
Call me too picky but marks on the face of a Morgan don't make for a 65 to me. And WTH is with all of the "65+" I have seen lately from PCGS? Why weren't they a 66? The entire grading system has always sucked in my opinion. Though disguised as a standard there's no standard at all. People are just wasting their time and money with grading services because ultimately the true quality and grade of a coin is in the eye of the beholder in my opinion. There is no such thing as looking too close either. Marks are marks regardless of if they can be seen with a naked eye or not and any mark makes the difference between a coin being a 70 and any other grade which is why I have yet to see what my opinion is a true 70 coin regardless of what a grading company has assigned to it. When a single grading digit can make for a dramatic price increase in the value of a coin they need to be more exact in their grading for sure. It's been going on for so long though I doubt there will ever be change.
Daniel, unfortunately I don’t believe that the grading companies want a set standard of grading.It is not in their interest to have one. They prefer to have an opinionated grading scale, this will do things that make collectors keep breaking coins out of holders and re grading them to see if they will jump a grade. As long as no set standards are implemented, the coin companies can not be accused of doing anything wrong.It is opinion grading, less headaches and more money for the grading companies. I do agree that some coin series would benefit from a set standard, but I don’t see it happening in the near future. Great point though !!!
I agree about your committee comments. I also think it does matter WHO or the source of where the submission comes from at times. And you comments about those coins you submit are spot on. Nice posting here today!
@@CoinHELPu Agreed, there likely never will be - standard too difficult to meet proof. However, in my narrow niche of market I know individual coins and who has submitted what and what has come back - lets say they DO NOT favor the smaller submitter.
Could you answer this question every Morgan has a different die and die pairing and varieties A lot of different vams feed your finger vans in so forth. Some of the dyes Are different and some have rounded edges if you look at around to ditch coin compared to square edged coin of the same year you think the rounded edge coin was worn but it's just to die
@@CoinHELPu The die pairings that have a rounded edge to also get a lower grade then the square edged dies that they used but that's all in the dyes if you look to vam world. I also have a 1895 O Bearded Eagle wow vam 3A Rounded edges and the date in stars the reverse is all squared NGC will not attribute It's not in their vam's but it's a wow attribute the vam's
I watched your video 4-5 times and paused it to compare my best ungraded Morgans with same dates and mint. I also took several screenshots to compare them at another time and let a friend compare. However, I believe mint luster has a great percentage of the graders decision. I noticed a good bit more luster on your 66’s.
CoinHELPu - that’s right. I never could understand how toned coins, even dark brown could get high scores because toning and tarnishing covers the surface damage.
Daniel would you consider doing a video showing some coins in your private collection ? Thank you . I always enjoy looking at the M. S. Morgan Dollars you show in your video's .
Shortly after learning of and studying the "Big 2" grading companies I was soon concerned about what I call "bad day grading." There can be HUGE differences in value decided by a single point or "+" could make. Bad moods, stress, (heck, even hangovers) could affect the grading of your coin. I know for a fact that simple laser/computer programs could be designed to lessen and assist graders subjectivity.
Those high grade Morgan dollars are beautiful coins. I think the treatment of the coin in the immediate hours after it was struck in the mint is responsible for the marks, which is why the graders cut slack for them. The coin is struck (often in a sloppy way at the New Orleans mint), then it was lobbed into a large cotton sack with hundreds of others. As the sacks became full, they were likely roughly dragged from the coin press room into a vault and dumped haphazardly together. That is the main source of bag marks on coins. Then, if the bags survive the great coinage melts of WW1 (Pitmann act), they sat in the vaults for 70 years or so, slowly tarnishing in decaying cotton sacks. Despite this unpromising start, many of the coins are virtually flawless after spending so long abandoned in a vault.
Morgans and Peace Dollars are the most loved and complicated to grade, everyone has different view of luster, strike, eye appeal etc. I just buy what I believe is a legit coin with my way of grading a coin, being luster, strike and eye appeal. This is for Morgans and Peace Dollars, because why would you buy a coin you don’t love just because a third party said it is not that good. Grading with PCGS or NGC is a coin flip on any given day between a 65 and 66.
I have a 1884 cc that I have not had graded and after seeing these coins mine is as good or better than most. I’m just afraid that getting it graded will not help me at all other than trying to sell it later.
We need to get a more transparent system that allows buyers and third parties to validate a coin's grade based on 'actual reasons' from the grader's perspective, not just some brief history on the Sheldon Scale while saying "Heyyy, trust us. We are Professionals." There is absolutely no good reason not to do this, and I can see only bad ones on why they would.
Hi I think the last coin should be graded MS67. The 2nd last one an MS63. Yes definitely inconsistent grading I think it is due to the experience of their grader and their each opinion. With the volume of grading now some just get the wrong MS state.
There is so much disparity with the grading companies it’s not even funny. If you do go to your own grading I’m in. Would love to see one of your labels on my coins because I believe in your view either high or low on the grade. I also believe you would be more reasonable priced for the common man not the large coin conglomerates.
Yeah, I wonder if we could set up an AI to train on grading Morgans, Peaces, Benjis, JFKs and Lincoln Wheaties (and other high-volume coins). I bet it wouldn't take long for something that uses facial recognition to be retrained to grade coins.
it would be interesting to see a video with just 5% magnification.... I never have done it, and don't even begin to understand grading, but a logical argument might be... if certain size marks are not noticeable at 5% then it doesn't matter if there is 5 marks that don't matter or 50 marks that don't? just wondering
I think there needs to be a tier system within each grade Like MS62A would be a top end MS62 coin. MS62B would be an average MS62. MS62C would be a coin that just barely makes the 62 grade and only slightly better than an MS61A. Although I agree with Daniel I think first we need to fill in the missing lower grades. It shouldn’t go from F12 to F15. What about F13 and F14?
Inconsistent grading has really turned me off about coin collecting! I still love coins, so I’ve been looking for errors and other ways to still enjoy coins without grading. Relying on another human to render a grade on our coins when so much money is involved is ludicrous! Great video Daniel!
I had 10 ms 65s and I looked for years to find any marks..today, the would be 68s.. a 65 should have no marks on the face or in fields, I had an 1893 ms 64. 4 years I had that coming luster beautiful not 1!! Mark.. it was flawless..
What I don't understand is why a slab coin has a cac greenie company saying what a other grading company grades. What that does is raise the price on the coin to a higher price coin on top of the price of the coin that someone is selling. I have over three hundred of Morgan's Ms 65,64,and 63. Some of the Ms 63 are better then some of the 64. And the ms63pl grades well that is a other fork in the road. Some ms63pl value 160.00 dollars. And ms65 are 190.00 to 160.00 value. It all books down to what I been seeing is $$$$$$$ and population. I also have ms65 that look like 63 so what the hell let's start I own grading company.
What have you got Daniel? Is it a laser scanning grading device? We could use one of those. It could measure all the wear, scratches and reflectivity. Man, would that be sweet.
On my screen, those coins are no more magnified than 5x and almost none of them qualify as MS65 IMHO. I see so many MS63's, where the open fields are clearly worn and do not have the same luster as the fields among the letters. Those MS66's are also problematic, with the exception of the last 1898O. That is why I only buy raw collector coins and if I do buy slabbed coins, they are MS/PR70 bullion coins, selling at raw bullion prices, which is quite common, indicating some folks made a bad decision to have them graded.
I agree that that last MS66 is pretty hinky. Even with the CAC sticker. In addition to the marks on the breast there are also multiple marks above and below "In God We Trust". Maybe if the obverse were a 67 it would average out, but I don't think it is. I like CAC in general but I think their standards can be a little strange. They seem to ignore quality of strike and die deterioration. Sometimes they'll certify a coin that is obviously overdipped. Dealers tend to want huge premiums for CAC Morgans so you have to be careful and shop around.
This is why I never invest my money in TPG's "opinions". They charge too much to begin with, and get it wrong a lot. That batch of Morgans you showed looked more like ICG graded them, instead of PCGS.
I recently purchased the 2020 p-d mint sets, already had the 2019 sets and I was looking at the quarters in the sets. I was comparing the quality of those quarters, because if I’m not mistaken those coins should be the best examples of coins meant for circulation, to the quality of a number of Guam West Point quarters I was lucky enough to find after searching through many boxes. I know p-d mint set coins are kinda “cherry picked” for quality, but it could be a starting point for the modern coin grading system. Just a thought.
I have an 1889 Morgan Dollar graded MS64+ with a CAC green bean and I’ve been comparing it to a 1921 D MS65 Morgan that I have and I think the 64+ CAC is even nicer than the 65. 😳
You are absolutely right about the grading standards and using technology to get a more accurate and consistent grading scale .
Certainly don't agree with a lot of grading, thanks
You can have more contact marks and still get ms65 grade if the strike and/or luster is above average. Grading is not based only on surface preservation (ie contact marks and wear).
Come on Daniel. Tell us the big news. Are you going to start a new grading company? DGS, Daniel Grading Service?
Yes please lol
Lol
Totally agree, let's start small w/ DAC - Daniel Acceptance Certification (Corp.) stickers then onto the grading company. 😊
@@ernien lol
I've stopped worrying about perfect grading bought unc Morgans 4_5$ when I was a kid BY THE POUND .SOLD SOME 24$ ALL remaining 🤔 FREE.now . I'm 80 yrs young.
Late to the video here but I agree with you 💯 on the plus grading and where it would serve a more useful purpose. Thanks for sliding thru so many 65/66 examples as well. I believe you’re spot on with the assessments! Cheers
Luster and over all eye appeal are the two ending factors when the 4th judge on the committee finalizes the grade. I always use the same concept when purchasing a coin. Just like nicely toned high grade coins adds much flavor and value to a particular grade. I don’t buy grades, I buy the coin! I would pick an ms62 over a 66 if I felt like that coin had the x factor for me.
I agree with you 100% when you see so many marks in the field and cheek, it just doesn’t cut it as a high grade coin.
You busted out that big smile 😃T the end and I started laughing. Some how happiness is contagious thank you for caring enough to teach.
Thank you Daniel...Well Said !!! Frankly I have seen Morgans graded MS62 less "Cheekey" than some of those graded 65 that you showed us. I am with you all the way the services can do better, especially with what they charge...
Love your videos great info for us just dipping our toes in this hobby. Hope you make it up to the Dayton coin show o e day.
When I buy the first thing I look for is the grade. Now if a dealer lays out a dozen MS-65’s and a dozen of 66’s, I may find one or two I would buy due to eye appeal. Not all 65’s & 66’s are equal in appearance, however there is a standard for those grades. That’s why I cherry pick. I would rather pay a little more for an MS-65 that looks more like a 66, because if and or when I sell it I could get a little more for it. I have even bought a few MS-64’s that look like MS-65. So l always buy the coin & not the holder. Like Daniel says to compare is a smart thing. Great video Daniel! Hope you start your own grading service or perhaps you could apply your own sticker like “CAC” does to help us out with your knowledge and experience as I agree with you. Good luck and looking forward you you next endeavor.
Not my knowledge we need a completely unbiased grading tool, not subject to human errors.
When you look at a coin in a holder, you have to ask yourself (i) if you are in agreement with the grade, and (ii) what +/- 1 point (or even a +) does to the price of the coin. I always look very hard at a coin in a holder in which 1 point less than the stated grade lowers the coin price by more than $100 (say). What always perturbs me is how the coin grading services can put an MS-65 on a coin which is so strongly toned, even blackened, that only a small percentage of the original surface is visible. I would suggest that grading services, when they do so, put an OS (occluded surface) or something to that effect to indicate that they believe the surface is pristine underneath the crud. I do not despise strongly toned coins, but I would never pay the same price as a brilliant one of the same in an identical holder. When it comes time to sell, dealers very well tell one that a toned coin is too ugly to sell at fully price.
Daniel, THANK YOU. I love Morgan's (big surprise huh)...I saw no difference between the grades 65-66. Same marks on neck, same on face, feathers showing marks...Watching your video's is my coin college because you teach, demonstrate, and help us learn. Good work!
That last 1898-o really was a stunner, great vid thx!
Wow I'm not a grader at all but understand where your comeing from.Most all those 66 grades except for a few had as many marks on cheek an neck as the 65's.Also couple on back of the breast were worse on the 66's.So I see exactly what u mean.Also agree that they should grade more in between like the forty rather than going up 5 grades an skipping in between like 42, 43 etc.Be good to see what u have up your sleeve on how these can be graded more accurate,Good vedio like all yours have really been learning.Thanks for your free service, an good job my Freind !
I just got five twenties out of the ATM They're All Star notes 00033 088 * threw 000-3309 2 * 2017 in great shape
There is a website where you can type the serial number in and it will tell you if its rare or not. Just google star note lookup. Good luck!
Thank you for showing the differences and I agree with you on the personal opinions. The coin graders NGC, PCGS, ANACS, IGC all of them need to really get back to the standard of grading coins. I have an 1896 Morgan from NGC that looks a lot better than your MS65's and mine is graded MS64. I really think the business has gotten so big that the graders are rushing through and not really stopping to recheck themselves on the standard of grading. Hold to that standard and keep your opinion out of it. I think if they read and truly eyeball the standard for grading, the coins would come out with correct grades not an opinion, and certainly not miss-grade the coin. I did get mad one time and sent quite a few of them back to be regraded, about 1/2 of the coins I sent in were regraded UP....... need to get it right the first time. I have lost confidence in professionally grading, it's a money game and you get harsh graders and easy graders. It need to be put back in check where you get CORRECT graders. Again thank you very much for this video. Have a blessed year
Daniel I really appreciate how candid you are about the grading process. Maybe you could do something similar to CAC. Ive always thought that if someone did a grade agreement or disagreement with a written explanation as to why the grade is or is not what it should be. Putting a sticker in is one thing but actually speaking as to why it is what it is would be something different and more beneficial.
Example, 65+ exceptional strike and lustre or 65+ shouldnt be because of a weak strike.
Different color stickers to signify different points of reason. I dont know just my thoughts.
I think the more mirror like ,they go a bit easier on the grading because chatter can be seen better. Thats the only thing i can think of.
I know they do a bit of averaging when the two sides are of different grades, the reverses may be saving some of those. That last one should be a 67 compared to the others, lol. That's a much better way of showing the coins, btw.
I`d love some one to make a video of cracking out 10-20 morgans from generation 1 & 2 holders, resubmitting and see how they grade out today.
You got the money?
I totally agree. I hate the + grade because most sellers expect to sell them for halfway between the grades. That said, per PCGS standards, 60% of the grade is supposed to be contact marks, 15% luster, 15% strike, and 10% overall eye appeal. Drive me nuts too....especially strike and contact marks.
we agree. true grading would be nice
I agree with a lot of the posts here. The grading standards have really went down at PCGS but on the other hand NGC has stepped up a bit. I find NGC coins to be in better condition as compared to the same coin and grade at PCGS. People like PCGS, it will always command a premium over NGC but as everybody knows buy the coin and not the holder. I have also noticed by talking to many dealers over the years that if you send in bulk submissions you're more likely to get better grades as opposed to sending in single coins. That alone is not cool, they're trying to keep the Dealer's business so they give them a higher grade meanwhile the little guy gets the lower grade! The coin and the grade are the same it does not matter who owns the coin? There's just so much politics involved, it's really driven me away.
I just see too much inconsistancy
I just bought a MS65 Morgan 1881S and I opened the parcel not two minutes before I clicked on this video. It's in a PCGS Gold Shield holder so you can look up the cert# (39184079) at the PCGS website. In fact I paid a small premium for the coin because of the quality of the photos provided. I think it's a 65/66 on the obverse and a 66 on the reverse. The strike and luster are both outstanding and there's little die wear. But lots of people choose the 1881S for type sets because there are so many nice ones available. I suppose there's room for argument but if that's coin's not at least a 65, then Joe Biden doesn't have Alzheimer's disease.
I agree that there should be some, any disclosure to why this coin graded at this and that coin graded at that. At very least an explanation as to why a coin received a Details grade or how it was determined to have been cleaned if it isn't obvious of course. I can see a coin app or grading software coming in the not to distant future where you coin dealer can scan a coin (in real time) and It determining the actual, incontrovertible grade and setting a price, I reach into my wallet, pay the man and I walk out without any doubt when putting it in my collection. Me, I'd gladly pay a premium for that. Where in any of that is there a problem?
Great job Daniel! The last coin which was MS66 was clearly higher quality than the MS65's you showed. You clearly pointed out the differences between grades.
From what I have learned from you and others, the grade is determined by whether the damage was at the mint or PMD. Bag marks, rubs, etc that occurred AT THE MINT do not affect the grade (but it should). Where PMD DOES affect the grade (again, it should). Yes, there is a lot of room for improvement and maybe a new grading system needed. Maybe a hybrid that grades the MINT STATE vs circulated on different scales just as business strike and proof are two different scales?
There are a lot of chatter marks on some of those. Even though these coins are in great condition, this is a great demonstration of dated judgment and new acceptance of similar outlooks.
I agree that an upgrade is needed in the grading of coins. Tech. might be the answer
I agree Daniel that there is too much subjectivity in grading, with inconsistencies between different graders and possibly even who and which price/priority level the coins are submitted to the grading companies.
On a different note, I appreciate the use of the tripod mounted camera when showing the coins. You don't experience the focus issues that occur when you just hold the coin up to the camera.
Clearly we have reached a state in computer and digital photography technology where the abilities of the Mark I Human Eyeball even one coupled to the human supercomputer (Brain) are outmatched. And though computers require an programmed algorithm to assess the visual appearance of an object, require regular maintenance, and are dependent on electrical power source to operate, they also do not fatigue and make errors related to fatigue like humans do. This is a great video Daniel--and reinforces for me (a novice collector) to examine the marks/chatter on a coin personally for each and every coin, to make sure that it is pleasing to my eye and assess it myself and not just buy it based on grade printed on the slab by grading company. I seem to be able to see the difference btw a lot of MS60 or MS62 Morgans and an MS 64 Morgan, but sometime MS63s look as good as MS64s and sometimes MS64s look as good as MS65s. This is really frustrating. It makes me wonder if the big grading companies have become so corporately large and are stuck in their old school grading methods with Human Mark I eyeballs operated by different brains, and they are grading so many coins with limited manpower, that they really don't spend adequate time assessing each coin to be certain they are being more consistent, in effort to just "move the meat" so to speak, to keep up with the income flowing in for their services. For what they charge to grade a coin, there SHOULD be more consistency, though as with any other human vision dependent endeavor, there will always be some mistakes, grader having a bad or stressful day, etc. And it always allows the opening to questions of favoritism (favoring big coin dealers/corporate coin sellers who submit massive quantities of coins over the individual collector or small coin shop operator). Sometimes even well run, well organized companies lose their corporate quality control when they get large--especially when they don't adapt their processes to make use of better technology to keep up with demand.
To me, numismatics seems ripe for introduction of automated computerized grading--and maybe they can still keep human eyeballs involved by having a human grader briefly review the coin after it has been examined and graded by computer, to make sure it appears to fit the mark (and prevent some gross malfunction of computer system from getting out the door without being corrected). Also human reviewer could possibly add a star for "extra good eye appeal" a human touch, albeit still subjective, to the grade. As to coins that were previously graded and slabbed by a coin grading company, I think nature would take its course--some owners might choose to crack them out and resubmit them, some might not given that it may result in lower grade and choose to leave them in the older slab. Over time, this would evolve and work out. As newer buyers and collectors enter the market and purchase coins, they will have option to decide whether or not they buy a coin in an older slab, based on their own judgement as to what they are willing to pay for it, and with some experience in making visual comparisons to more modern computer graded coins.
Hey Daniel, I just wanted to say hi and I think that your advice is on point and I have learned sooo much about every single type of coins especially when it comes to grading my coins. But why when you send your coins in to be graded by PCGS and you can see your reflection in the Morgan Silver Dollar from 3 inches away why doesn't it get a DMPL or PL grade your coin?? Thanks again for all of your videos they are great and I wouldn't know half of what I know about coins now if I hadn't of watched them.
-Thanks again Daniel a huge fan
the answer to your question would be the degree of haziness in the fields that can block uniform reflectivity! I think thats what the grading companies look at.
I agree with you 100% and sadly I think your name matters when getting coins graded, if you are by chance a highroller or part the sunset collection for example well you're going to get better grades than JoBlo regardless of whether his grade is better than the big guys or friends and the grading companies etc
I agree.
So grading is a scam then?
@@josephgerace1966 I just think that these third-party graders control the market as far as pricing goes. I think it's who you are and who you know that will get you the grade you're looking for. Sadly that's just the way it is and nothing will change until a new type of grading service or standard is put into place to help control the market and the graders to start getting it right the first time since there are thousands and thousands of dollars riding on a + or 1 point difference . Grading is subjective and unfortunately they don't give you a reason why they graded your coin an MS66 instead of 67. If you're a high-end dealer or auction house etc, think it would be a different outcome IMHO.
Daniels Grading Services, I would definitely be a customer. 😀😀👍👍👍
Great video Dan!!! Seeing multiple exqmples like that, all graded the same, is definitely beneficial to anyone sharpening their grading skills. I also agree 100% where Id have a REALLY hard time accepting the grade given to the coin in the holder. All part of the game. I also agree totally that thete should be a technology based aspect involved in the grading procedures. A 2 part grade, 1 based on a strictly technical basis where a computer compares the details of a base "pefect" master example against the submission, and then a human grade using a formula of eye appeal, nuance of any imperfections ( like location of a ding, field or cheek), etc....or even just a grade by how its done now even..then either combine the grades for a final grade or have the 2 grades seperate. Any way ya slice it, theres gotta be something less subjective available going forward. The technology is here. Its time....
Ok...Great video!! Thank you for the hard work!!!
For what I heard is #1 looks at coin and says MS64 then goes to #2 looks at coin and says MS64 then coin goes out MS64 but if #1 says MS64 and #2 says MS65 then it goes to #3 and says MS65 it goes out MS65 but comes down to what someone thinks the coin is and we are all human.
Gregory Arbuckle I’m finding that’s a universal statement. we’re all human none of us a perfect so this applies to grading as well. I hope something can be done about this.
Can't wait to see what you've got cooking!
The 1900 65 was better then the 66! In some regard it scares the crap out of me to introduce a new grading system as it would probably devalue 75% of the coins out there and impact people financially. I have a 1921 Peace MS 66 that may not make that grade under a new standard. That would be a few thousand loss. Not saying that’s right, but a defined standard would definitely impact a great deal of coins value.
Thanks for another great video.
Thanks for watching!
An aside question! How did such coins get to us in such good condition? Did they spend all those years enclosed in bags? In 1878, such a coin would have been too much needed for living expenses for the average person to have laid it back.
Congress set mintage requirements well above what was actually needed for commerce so many silver dollars often sat in storage after being minted rather than getting circulated because of the mandated overproduction.
In bags at banks and vaults
Great idea with using the EF 42 or EF 48 grades. I know it’s a bit different but they already do it for for the VF grades. Great video as always.
Excellent topic. I would like to see some sort of smart technology involved in grading. It looks like one is buying the slab first, then the coin. Don't want to sound like a conspiracist, but it seems like the companies are controlling the number of coins receiving certain grades. I would not like to think deals are being made with dealers to guarantee a certain percentage of their submissions receive gem grades. No, I am sure I am wrong about that. 😈😉
If A.I. can “read” a hundred written samples to generate a consensus, it can do the same with hundreds of photographs. Between the top 4 grading companies, there’s plenty of photos to generate a consensus of grades.
The 66 is awesome.specially the fields.65 is okay but a lot more black stains but their beautiful thats the way I see it.good luck
I'm in complete agreement with you. There's got to be a better, more consistent grading system than my 1972 Photo Grade book, and a person's opinion. The difference in price between a 64 and 65 can be significant. The last MS 64 Morgan I got from you would be a 65 in my eyes all day long. The old Photo Grade is fine for looking at circulated coins and deciding on a grade for myself, but it's time for an upgrade, especially when it comes to grading services.
I agree, I have seen the same thing and I couldn't grade a coin to save my life. But, I can see things that should not be on a MS65 or MS66 and others. Each type of coin also has different points to grade them correctly. As I said I could not grade a coin, but can see obvious marks, dings and scratches.
it seems to me that the 66 coins have a better field and strike and a few less bag marks then the 65s i would be in faver of a better grading standard for morgan dollars there so hard to grade because every single on has bag marks
Buy the coin not the grade Great video
Really disappointing to see CAC put a sticker on an overgraded morgan. They're supposed to be the validating middle man to prevent buying lowend or overgraded coins. I'd say from what I've seen they usually get it right but still very disappointing
I ve see more than a few dogs with CAC stickers, no idea why people obsess with them.
@@JASN-oj5qu I like CAC coins and they save me time because the average CAC coin is better than the average non-CAC coin. But yeah, there are occasional dogs in those holders. 10/7/20
I have bought some graded coins just so I can learn grading. So I am a beginner on this and I figured there is a slight differences between grades. They probably should of been advancing their system a long time ago.
Nice job. Love your work. I see what you did there, I like your style!!
It is the 69 and 70 that I have a real problem with.... really difficult at times to detect why a 69 coin hasn't been graded as a 70!
Daniel... I agree with your grading perception.... I experience the same when I submit coins for grading.. very frustrating..
I totally agree with you about the whole grading process. I'm confused, and there really doesn't seem to be a real 'standard'. I see coins graded one thing, and then I have one that looks much better....but it gets a lesser grade. I have Morgans that look much better than the MS65's you are showing, and yet they get passed off as MS60's for some reason. I've just decided to forgo the expense of sending coins in because it's all so subjective.
Not one 66, ‘cept the last one. It’s disappointing cause of the price differences. But it was a good lesson. I enjoyed it. I’m actually learning how to grade Morgans watchin these videos. Thanks again!
Thank you Daniel you always gives good info 👍👍
Excellent video 💯🔥
I think you should still do a 2 hour video of showing coins. Just for good measure.
Totally in agreement that some of them seem to have too much rough marking to be a 65.Yep, "opinion" is a tough way to cover these investments.
I've heard from many dealers over the years that the grading companies, especially NGC and PCGS, favor the large dealers. I.e., the dealers who are submitting thousands of coins each year are more likely to get the higher grades. Even worse if a private person submits a coin for grading. It makes sense, but I don't like it. Coming up with a set, fair standard would be wonderful.
No proof
A 100 point grading system.. 25 points eye appeal, 25 points strike, 25 points luster. 25 points marks or bag damage..Do this to observe and reverse..divide the total by 2.... so 98 on obverse and 90 reverse equals a 94 coin..
I agree but to get NGC, PCGS. and CAC to agree to a standard and create a computer program would be a great task. It could be done but it would be difficult to come yo agreement. Then you would have computer geaded and human graded. But you are correct.
The 1898 O looks pretty good ✅
Daniel, I get what you are saying about Grading, what I cannot understand as a small time buyer is about buying some ungraded coins vs Graded Coins. These Graded Coins in particular are bargains for a small time buyer: 1. A PGCS/NGC MS70 or PR70 First Strike Silver Roosevelt. I have bought these for $7.00 on Ebay! Why do they get these graded? PGCS would charge me $24.00 to get the dime graded, ANACS lowest at $12 IF they were grading coins right now they are not. 2. “Improperly Clean” in either AU or MS Details by PGCS, NGC, ANACS, or ICG can be real bargains. The 1892 Columbia Expo PGCS AU Details “Improperly Cleaned” for $14.92 on Ebay I bought recently is a case in point, Beautiful Coin. 3. The one I am still amazed at is American Silver Eagles, I have seen you and other Coin Shops selling MS69 and MS70 of the 4 major grading companies from $35-$40 each, so what if with a magnifying glass they are not Perfect, the best price for a person just buying one coin w PayPal or a CC for a 2020 American Silver Eagle BU is $26.10, but when you get to the checkout they want $7.77 for shipping! Then you have to pay for grading! Also, some AU58’s do look nice to the naked eye.
Didn't PCGS try to develop a computer to grade coins. I remember seeing a video about it but can't remember where. The computer was unable to consistently produce the correct gradings for coins as there was to many different factors to take into account. ie, toning or refraction from the coins surface on different angles. So PCGS found that people were able take these factors into account & do a better job. I agree with you Daniel about the grade of some coins & hope that someday we'll be able to get a more consistent grading system.
They did and it graded more consistent than human graders, I read the patent results
I like your videos thank you for being honest
Good morning Daniel.that a very nice video I agree with what you are saying in my opinion is some of them look more like 63. 64. Thank you Daniel
What I hate is toned coins that have gouges in the cheeks in the feathers in the fields toned like on the PCGS is calendar prime example Min state 68 plus that coin is not a 68 plus is tone it's covering all the marks are but if you look close at the picture
Call me too picky but marks on the face of a Morgan don't make for a 65 to me. And WTH is with all of the "65+" I have seen lately from PCGS? Why weren't they a 66? The entire grading system has always sucked in my opinion. Though disguised as a standard there's no standard at all. People are just wasting their time and money with grading services because ultimately the true quality and grade of a coin is in the eye of the beholder in my opinion. There is no such thing as looking too close either. Marks are marks regardless of if they can be seen with a naked eye or not and any mark makes the difference between a coin being a 70 and any other grade which is why I have yet to see what my opinion is a true 70 coin regardless of what a grading company has assigned to it. When a single grading digit can make for a dramatic price increase in the value of a coin they need to be more exact in their grading for sure. It's been going on for so long though I doubt there will ever be change.
Daniel, unfortunately I don’t believe that the grading companies want a set standard of grading.It is not in their interest to have one.
They prefer to have an opinionated grading scale, this will do things that make collectors keep breaking coins out of holders and re grading them to see if they will jump a grade.
As long as no set standards are implemented, the coin companies can not be accused of doing anything wrong.It is opinion grading, less headaches and more money for the grading companies.
I do agree that some coin series would benefit from a set standard, but I don’t see it happening in the near future.
Great point though !!!
👍
I agree about your committee comments. I also think it does matter WHO or the source of where the submission comes from at times. And you comments about those coins you submit are spot on. Nice posting here today!
No proof they favor larger dealers
@@CoinHELPu Agreed, there likely never will be - standard too difficult to meet proof. However, in my narrow niche of market I know individual coins and who has submitted what and what has come back - lets say they DO NOT favor the smaller submitter.
Could you answer this question every Morgan has a different die and die pairing and varieties A lot of different vams feed your finger vans in so forth. Some of the dyes Are different and some have rounded edges if you look at around to ditch coin compared to square edged coin of the same year you think the rounded edge coin was worn but it's just to die
What's the question?
@@CoinHELPu The die pairings that have a rounded edge to also get a lower grade then the square edged dies that they used but that's all in the dyes if you look to vam world. I also have a 1895 O Bearded Eagle wow vam 3A Rounded edges and the date in stars the reverse is all squared NGC will not attribute It's not in their vam's but it's a wow attribute the vam's
I watched your video 4-5 times and paused it to compare my best ungraded Morgans with same dates and mint. I also took several screenshots to compare them at another time and let a friend compare. However, I believe mint luster has a great percentage of the graders decision. I noticed a good bit more luster on your 66’s.
They graded toned coins MS66 as well.
CoinHELPu - that’s right. I never could understand how toned coins, even dark brown could get high scores because toning and tarnishing covers the surface damage.
Daniel would you consider doing a video showing some coins in your private collection ? Thank you . I always enjoy looking at the M. S. Morgan Dollars you show in your video's .
I did that already
@@CoinHELPu I must have missed that one . Thank you i will find it .
It was interesting 😎 👍
Shortly after learning of and studying the "Big 2" grading companies I was soon concerned about what I call "bad day grading." There can be HUGE differences in value decided by a single point or "+" could make. Bad moods, stress, (heck, even hangovers) could affect the grading of your coin. I know for a fact that simple laser/computer programs could be designed to lessen and assist graders subjectivity.
Podna you say you could show coins for 2 hours, brother I believe you could show coins for 2 days and I would be here with you Daniel.
Lol. Thank you
Those high grade Morgan dollars are beautiful coins. I think the treatment of the coin in the immediate hours after it was struck in the mint is responsible for the marks, which is why the graders cut slack for them. The coin is struck (often in a sloppy way at the New Orleans mint), then it was lobbed into a large cotton sack with hundreds of others. As the sacks became full, they were likely roughly dragged from the coin press room into a vault and dumped haphazardly together. That is the main source of bag marks on coins. Then, if the bags survive the great coinage melts of WW1 (Pitmann act), they sat in the vaults for 70 years or so, slowly tarnishing in decaying cotton sacks. Despite this unpromising start, many of the coins are virtually flawless after spending so long abandoned in a vault.
They even shoveled them with shovels
Exactly. A lot of workers at the mints didn't care. The brand new coins often had a really rough time. The graders allow scruff marks as a result.
Morgans and Peace Dollars are the most loved and complicated to grade, everyone has different view of luster, strike, eye appeal etc. I just buy what I believe is a legit coin with my way of grading a coin, being luster, strike and eye appeal. This is for Morgans and Peace Dollars, because why would you buy a coin you don’t love just because a third party said it is not that good. Grading with PCGS or NGC is a coin flip on any given day between a 65 and 66.
Luster is not what most think it is, there's plenty of toned coins in gem grade.
I have a 1884 cc that I have not had graded and after seeing these coins mine is as good or better than most. I’m just afraid that getting it graded will not help me at all other than trying to sell it later.
What if they regraded the graded with the new tech
We need to get a more transparent system that allows buyers and third parties to validate a coin's grade based on 'actual reasons' from the grader's perspective, not just some brief history on the Sheldon Scale while saying "Heyyy, trust us. We are Professionals."
There is absolutely no good reason not to do this, and I can see only bad ones on why they would.
Hi I think the last coin should be graded MS67. The 2nd last one an MS63. Yes definitely inconsistent grading I think it is due to the experience of their grader and their each opinion. With the volume of grading now some just get the wrong MS state.
There is so much disparity with the grading companies it’s not even funny. If you do go to your own grading I’m in. Would love to see one of your labels on my coins because I believe in your view either high or low on the grade. I also believe you would be more reasonable priced for the common man not the large coin conglomerates.
Yeah, I wonder if we could set up an AI to train on grading Morgans, Peaces, Benjis, JFKs and Lincoln Wheaties (and other high-volume coins). I bet it wouldn't take long for something that uses facial recognition to be retrained to grade coins.
it would be interesting to see a video with just 5% magnification.... I never have done it, and don't even begin to understand grading, but a logical argument might be... if certain size marks are not noticeable at 5% then it doesn't matter if there is 5 marks that don't matter or 50 marks that don't? just wondering
I think there needs to be a tier system within each grade
Like MS62A would be a top end MS62 coin.
MS62B would be an average MS62.
MS62C would be a coin that just barely makes the 62 grade and only slightly better than an MS61A.
Although I agree with Daniel I think first we need to fill in the missing lower grades. It shouldn’t go from F12 to F15. What about F13 and F14?
You are right they really need to change the grading
Thanks Daniel for my Morgan sales. Hope they were as ice as
I thought they were. All 65 s I hope
Should say nice, Ron Palmer7/29
Morgan's are my new favorite.
Inconsistent grading has really turned me off about coin collecting! I still love coins, so I’ve been looking for errors and other ways to still enjoy coins without grading. Relying on another human to render a grade on our coins when so much money is involved is ludicrous! Great video Daniel!
I had 10 ms 65s and I looked for years to find any marks..today, the would be 68s.. a 65 should have no marks on the face or in fields, I had an 1893 ms 64. 4 years I had that coming luster beautiful not 1!! Mark.. it was flawless..
What I don't understand is why a slab coin has a cac greenie company saying what a other grading company grades. What that does is raise the price on the coin to a higher price coin on top of the price of the coin that someone is selling. I have over three hundred of Morgan's Ms 65,64,and 63. Some of the Ms 63 are better then some of the 64. And the ms63pl grades well that is a other fork in the road. Some ms63pl value 160.00 dollars. And ms65 are 190.00 to 160.00 value. It all books down to what I been seeing is $$$$$$$ and population. I also have ms65 that look like 63 so what the hell let's start I own grading company.
What have you got Daniel? Is it a laser scanning grading device? We could use one of those. It could measure all the wear, scratches and reflectivity. Man, would that be sweet.
Lol
On my screen, those coins are no more magnified than 5x and almost none of them qualify as MS65 IMHO. I see so many MS63's, where the open fields are clearly worn and do not have the same luster as the fields among the letters. Those MS66's are also problematic, with the exception of the last 1898O. That is why I only buy raw collector coins and if I do buy slabbed coins, they are MS/PR70 bullion coins, selling at raw bullion prices, which is quite common, indicating some folks made a bad decision to have them graded.
Yes they are, they're much larger than a normal coin, hold a coin up to the screen
I agree that that last MS66 is pretty hinky. Even with the CAC sticker. In addition to the marks on the breast there are also multiple marks above and below "In God We Trust". Maybe if the obverse were a 67 it would average out, but I don't think it is. I like CAC in general but I think their standards can be a little strange. They seem to ignore quality of strike and die deterioration. Sometimes they'll certify a coin that is obviously overdipped. Dealers tend to want huge premiums for CAC Morgans so you have to be careful and shop around.
excellent video. Thank you for this one
This is why I never invest my money in TPG's "opinions". They charge too much to begin with, and get it wrong a lot. That batch of Morgans you showed looked more like ICG graded them, instead of PCGS.
But there's a lot of money to be made doing it, just play the game.
@@CoinHELPu As a Dealer you almost have to play the Grading game. As a Collector I would rather spend that money on buying more Coins.
My guess is that your going to start and open up your new grading company finally. 🙂🙂🤙
I recently purchased the 2020 p-d mint sets, already had the 2019 sets and I was looking at the quarters in the sets. I was comparing the quality of those quarters, because if I’m not mistaken those coins should be the best examples of coins meant for circulation, to the quality of a number of Guam West Point quarters I was lucky enough to find after searching through many boxes. I know p-d mint set coins are kinda “cherry picked” for quality, but it could be a starting point for the modern coin grading system. Just a thought.
They're satin finish in those sets so not business strikes for circulation.
CoinHELPu thanks for the info, they do look different, and can I ask your professional opinion on the value of a 1942P pcgs ms66 Walking Liberty HD?
In my opinion from what we have just seen i think with the exception of the last 66 they would be lucky to get a 63/4.
I have an 1889 Morgan Dollar graded MS64+ with a CAC green bean and I’ve been comparing it to a 1921 D MS65 Morgan that I have and I think the 64+ CAC is even nicer than the 65. 😳