You should look at cards not as annoying but as hard puzzles to solve or, in the case of Cathar's Crusade, a different playstyle approach. Not all are for everyone but I dont mind trying to figure my way out of a game where someone drops a Winter Orb turn 5 and the board is locked. Some find it annoying or wasteful but I like to look at it like I said before a puzzle to solve.
I'm posting this prior to watching. I will be disappointed if Ixidron isn't on the list. Edit will occur when I finish watching. Edit: Disappointed :/ Also, I have a tap matters deck and Mesmeric Orb didn't make the cut specifically because of the reasons mentioned, as well as straight up just wanting to not do a Labman/Thoracle win condition.
Hey! I laminated Index Cards with Premade Tokens and a Summoning sick mat that is laminated construction paper for my Token deck with Cathars Crusade. Now that I type it out... I KNOW WHO I AM!
The extra issue with Slivers... Some buff up ALL Slivers. Some buff up all of YOUR slivers. When a different player plays a changeling, that creature gets SOME of the buffs.
Most frustration in commander games can be midigated by knowing the cards in your deck and paying attention to the game. When you biuld a deck make sure you gold fish it and make sure your prepared to play the deck. If you need alot of tokens or dice make sure you have them. I am very rarely annoyed by players paying attention and planning ahead for their turn even if they are playing complicated cards.
It's a shame locally for me most players in pods are often on their phone and half paying attention to the game. I started in Avacyn Restored , had a good couple years break , worked in LGS's combined around 4 years. For whatever reason in my time playing most people are very uninterested in giving their full attention , it's a shame :( It's not even a case of a player in the pod playing a very solitaire combo deck or anything all the decks could be battle cruiser and people just don't care if it's not their turn and don't actively have interaction. Slows games down so much to catch people up to speed when they try and do something then something else triggers that they weren't aware of souly because on they weren't paying attention.
@@zackwilcox3183That is a shame. Magic is such a rich and complex game. People build amazing decks and it is cool to see what other players put together but you do definitely need to pay attention to catch all the cool interactions.
Most frustration in commander games can be mitigated by knowing the cards in your deck and paying attention to the game. When you build a deck, make sure to goldfish it so you are prepared to play the deck. If your deck needs any tokens or dice, ensure you have them. I am very rarely annoyed by players who pay attention and plan ahead for their turn, even if they are playing complicated cards.
20:42 for the Crystaline Giant i always plan ahead. So i have a small black fabric bag with each type of counter inside it. Then i just draw one at random or let another player draw at random. If a counter is removed from the giant, it goes back in the bag. If a counter is somehow put on it in another way, i just grab the counter from the bag and put it on it. And of course, i show all the tokens before the game or when i play the giant. So that works alright. I just have to keep the bag with the deck that has the giant. But i only have the giant in one of my decks.
Yeah I thought of that too. Not really any different than having a copy of all the types of tokens your deck can make, and moxfield gives you an easy list. Though I might be in the minority for even doing that lol, it's normal for my playgroup but they are mostly the only people I play with.
I made a site as a project where it just does this for you. It randomizes what you get and ensures there's no repeat without having you to do the work. Would link it if I could find it again
Surprising rule clarification for charismatic conqueror. It says, "when an artifact or creature enters untapped..." So if you have, say blind obedience, you don't get the 1/1s through conqueror.
It's the opposite: Whenever an artifact or creature an opponent controls enters untapped, they may tap that permanent. If they don't, you create a 1/1 white Vampire creature token with lifelink. And from the ruling: If the permanent is tapped as the ability resolves, the opponent can't choose to tap it, so you'll create a Vampire token. Similarly, if it's no longer on the battlefield as the ability resolves, they can't choose to tap it, and you'll create a Vampire token. EDIT: I'm wrong, it specifies enters untapped. Got confuse with the panharmonicon synergies.
@@SimWOT That's not correct. If it enters tapped, Conqueror never triggers to begin with. This is referring more to something like a mana rock that could enter untapped but then be tapped before the trigger resolves.
Turn 4: Annointed Procession (no creatures in play) Turn 5: Cathar’s Crusade (still no creatures) Turn 6: Pass with mana up. EoT before you go, cast Secure the Wastes for 5 (10 due to Procession), put 110 power onto the battlefield. 😂
I think what Rachel says at 13:02 is inaccurate. Reading the effect, it says something needs to enter untapped to begin with. Therefore, having a Blind Obedience effect already on board should circumvent the whole trigger and not give you the Vampire token.
@@123abcvolleyball Can you explain how that is the same? It is one thing for it being tapped by another Ability (e.g. another Charismatic Conqueror), but to enter tapped to begin with should not trigger "Whenever... enters the battlefiels *untapped* and...".
@@123abcvolleyballthis is wrong. This is if they're tapped as the ability "resolves". That ruling was in response to things like mana rocks that could be tapped for mana before the ability resolves. Clarifying that in THAT situation you would still get the 1/1. If an effect causes the permanent to enter tapped the ability wouldn't trigger at all based on the fact that it's worded "if enters untapped".
It's interesting how my perspective on annoying cards has changed over the years. It started off being cards that were just really good and I would lose to all the time, and now it's a mix of that and cards that are too complicated resolve or take too many game actions and are time consuming.
Absolutely agree. Like, if we're in a game where we didn't specificaly agree on to play theme decks, slightly upgraded precons or just general chill vibes with my friends, all gloves are off, hit me as hard as you can. I'll accept whatever strong cards you play. But dear lord, will I lose intrest and glaze off during the game, if there are cards that require me to keep a shops worth of dice with me & keep track of a single card that forces me to keep track of 5 different things it causes
They didn't mention Ward of Bones "Each opponent who controls more creatures than you can't play creature cards. The same is true for artifacts, enchantments, and lands." this just shuts other peoples decks down or slows them so much, S+ annoying card for me
Simple rules we encourage for tokens and dice. Use at least two tokens (but no more than three) to represent tapped and untapped creatures (or if summoning sickness matters). Use tiny D6 dice to track +1/+1 counters. Large dice from D8 to D20 can be used to count amounts of tokens in a "pile", other kinds of counters, and anything else that is being tracked (cards in yard, devotion, affinity, etc).
I feel like the most annoying part of commander is player indecision or inaction based off of not wanting to make enemies. It makes the game so much longer
47:30 Mayhem Devil “in the hands of players who don’t want to make enemies…”? I feel like those players shouldn’t be running Mayhem Devil. That’s on them. 😂
I think y'all are overstating how much extra clutter Initiative adds.. You keep one collective Undercity dungeon card and use a bunch of dice or whatever in different colors (which you pretty much always have already for +1/1 counters) to track where each player is in the initiative, and just move that one card in front of the player who currently has the initiative. If you do it that way you're adding exactly one card to the stuff you already needed to have at the table for a Commander game without Initiative..
Truth. Initiative is awesome. The longer the video goes, the less it's about actual annoying cards and the more it's complaining about "powerful" effects.
I usually use one collective oversized undercity card to place markers for the players and one normal sized initiative card to hand around the table. In webcam games I add the initiative card to my spelltable command zone, so that everyone can easily read it. I think it's a really fun mechanic even if it takes a little bit work to track.
I have a initiative based deck, and in my playgroup after the initiative is introduced we track it by each player putting a die of their choice on the room they enter, and me as the player keep track of who has it. And we use infinitokens for the treasure and skeleton tokens
I agree that the initiative isn't a big deal. Decks that are focused around that mechanic are usually equipped to manage it. Very very few cards with the initiative slip into lists not focused on that mechanic. White Plume Archer is literally the only intiative card that I've seen pop up in decks that are not initiative decks.
I bought a cheap wooden board with the Undercity on it + an oversized "initiative card" off Etsy for maybe $20? Had some old DnD minis that I now keep in a bag next to my token box. When initiative gets triggered or taken, that person picks a mini out of the bag and places it on the Undercity map, which can just go in the middle of the table alongside the life tracker. Now everyone can easily track where they, and everyone else, are in the Undercity. We all spend so much money on this hobby. This extra $20 was an easy thing to justify for me just for how simple it makes the whole mechanic. And it's fun!
34:20 I understand how annoying the Initiative can be, but emphasizing the Skeleton Token, Treasure Token, and additional dice need seems silly, when if you’re in a good playgroup, someone has extra dice and infinitokens. The additional Undercity token is the only thing that makes it annoying imo, but the onus on that is for the person who bring The Initiative into the game to have 4 Undercity trackers. If they don’t, I agree it should rank highly as annoying, but emphasizing the rest of the stuff needed for it to work just seems silly and petty.
i always have 4 undercity and 1 initiative token ready every game. and a few 4/1's and treasures. the only problem with dungeons is that its op and wins super fast with a combo nobody else gets to use them!
FS, I've never thought initiative was annoying, because I've only ever played with it in these circumstances. The player always brings extra copies of the undercity, we have plenty of dice and tokens available for use, and often times we emphasize who has it with real world objects like a hat, or our personal favorite, a stuffed baby doll. I only realized people found the initiative annoying thanks to online threads and videos like these.
Funny story about Charismatic Conqueror. Was playing against my roommate's un-upgraded Ixalan vampires precon with this card in it, it was getting a bit annoying, and I drew into a Crafty Cutpurse in my upgraded Ixalan pirates precon, and...you get the picture. My Cutpurse enters, I decline to tap it, my roommate goes to create a token from Conqueror, but my Cutpurse says that I make instead. When my token enters under my control, I again decline to tap it, triggering Conqueror, which triggers the Cutpurse, and I do this about 25 times, just to make a point.
I feel like Grave Pact misses the mark of annoying. It's oppressive, it can essentially turn off certain decks, it's powerful, but it's not difficult to function or remember and it doesn't lead to appreciably longer turns
Yeah, as someone who plays a lot of black, I am tired of Grave Pact and similar cards being referred to as annoying or asocial or whatever by content creators when what they are is a) effective and b) an essential part of the color pie. Black is good at killing stuff. It goes after creatures. On the color wheel, it is opposite green, the color most based around creatures. Effects like Grave Pact, No Mercy, etc are a balance against over-reliance on creatures. Yes, they can be rough against certain strategies which are over-reliant on creatures, such as voltron, and on decks which don’t run a lot of creatures but rely on their commanders, but that is not a bad thing. There should be a cost to putting all your eggs in one basket. Voltron is weak to Grave Pact like artifact decks are weak to Vandalblast. It is called game balance.
i've cast it a few times, and i just cope with the cards seeming decent enough. like there's another evasive threat, a good land or two, and maybe a neat artifact. sure i guess. if it's all lands i'm going again usually
Shoutout to Lavinia of the Tenth, a card I wish I didn't know existed! One of my friends abuses it in his flicker deck and shuts off every other player for turns at a time while he sits back and generates a ton of value without actually going for a win. Definitely more of a build-around than most of these, but ridiculously annoying in the same vein as the pillowfort stax cards.
You can tell I'm the green player, because my answer is free counterspells. 😂 JK, I haven't run into them all that much. But it is frustrating that they aren't telegraphed. You can't even say "just expect it if they have cards in hand." because they're in blue! They'll ALWAYS have cards in hand!
Yeah, all these cards need the right home. I play it in my Adeline deck. Sure, you have a couple of 12/12 humans, but I have 9 12/12 humans myself. Same with Cathar's Crusade, it ends the game quickly in that deck.
@@commanderpower99 Cathar's crusade is a lot of triggers and counters. There is no denying that it's a lot of work to manage. I don't understand the hate on coat of arms though.
Yeah coat of arms is a totally fine card. They talk about it like it's hitting the table turn 2 and every combat for the next 5 rounds is under the shadow of its math, but in reality it's a finisher and the decks that run it don't care that the effect is symmetrical.
@@fgnsfgnsfgnexactly I keep this in my hand until I have an opening to kill the table with my pirates, it is simply a finisher. I never play it as a value card
Used as a finisher is nice. The issue is, I play against a friend with a humans deck that also gets pumped with this effect. So for Prossh I find BEASTMASTER ASCENSION much better!
I don't think people have ejected coat of arms because it's annoying. I think they've ejected it because it is a symmetrical "win-more" card. The first time you die because someone plays a "secure the wastes" and your coat of arms makes the tokens 8/8 and beats you down with them, you think "maybe paying 4 mana and a card to pump your opponent's stuff isn't that good."
Once, someone had a Coat of Arms in their elf deck against my Neera, Wild Mage deck, which is an elf. I ended up winning with commander damage a first for that deck I will never forget. They never expected it and I was quiet about it until I swung
@wcreative5889 It is far too good. It is _the_ boardwipe - any other is comparatively meaningless. Consider that in the premium set of MH3, in black, the other color generally capable of removal, they printed a laughable caricature of the card.
@@lVideoWatcherl Toxic Deluge, Cyclonic Rift, Blasphemous Act, March of Otherworldly Light, Fire Covenant, The Meathook Massacre etc. - lots of great board wipes (quite a few which are better than Farewell most of the time - fully clearing the board for 6 mana is generally overrated as you are usually putting yourself last in turn order to rebuild ...)
@@wchenful March isn't even a board wipe. It's single target removal. Fire Covenant is enormously weak compared to any of the cards you mentioned there, unless you're leagues ahead, that card will not get you to parity, much less to a commanding position. And apart from Cyclonic rift, you didn't mention a single other boardwipe that could actually wipe not just creatures... I get the sincere feeling that the meta you personally play in significantly skews your ability to accurately evaluate cards.
day/night is the worst mechanic wizards may ever make. it's annoying, it's not fun, it's not strong, and doesn't interact with the previous werewolf mechanics at all. it's the ultimate draft chaff.
Hey don't forget that the original innistrad flip cards work sliiiightly differently lol. It's what stopped me from building a werewolf deck, I didn't want to have to deal with day/night stuff constantly.
It's honestly such a shame , concept wise could be cool have cards change dependent on it being day or night could work with things outside if specifically werewolves but it is so clunky and confusing and difficult to keep track of most of the time in commander. It's a darn shame. One of those on paper cool in practice bad.
Never ever have I met anyone who gets annoyed by the Innitiative. It gives every player the chance to mana fix, it opens up politics, gives incentive to attack more often, has modes that are interesting for most decks and also is not that hard to track if the player in charge brings either enough copies or of the big versions.
I once built a Sen Triplets deck that was also a Sliver deck, as a joke. Just to see how fast the entire table would want to destroy me. It was pretty much immediately, which I found hilarious. Pretty much disassembled as soon as I came home. Didn't even get to cast my Telepathy.
Hi, math guy checking in! The distribution of throwing two d6s IS NOT the same as a d12. With two d6s, you'll quickly realize that 6+1 = 1+6 = 2+5 = ... = 7 whereas only 6+6 = 12
So it is actually the everybody else's responsibility to pay. The owner of the card(s) don't legally have to ask. It's just common courtisy. So as annoying as it may be, they can actually just stop being curious and stop asking, to be less annoying. 1:07:03
I use both a the Initiative and Monarch in my Obeka, Splitter of Seconds deck. Because I’m using a ton of Unblockable effects I have a good chance of getting either or both back from whoever takes it from me, and generate immediate value by getting multiple Upkeeps from Obeka’s ability.
@willtactix Yeah, I end up not running Cathar's Crusade and Doubling Season in that particular deck because I don't want to spend the mana to drop a big enchantment when I can instead drop a Hardened Scales and start casting creatures and generating creature tokens to maximize Galadriel's three abilities. Especially having Cathar's Crusade in there is just too win-more for my tastes. I already have a time dealing with the counters I make now.
I love this card and use it in a few decks, but people seem to either love it or hate it. Usually after it's been out, they start to hate it. Timesifter
I love the initiative. I have an Abdel Adrian / Dungeon Delver deck with Hama Pashar as the "second" commander. It's a heavy Blink deck, and one of the win-cons is just hitting the Trap room so much I drain the table.
So I have started running more "permenant" removal in ALL of my decks regardless of color, just so that I can have answers to these kinds of cards. Like Grave Pact for example, I don't really mind if my opponents run it even against my creature based decks. Because I know that it won't last very long on the battlefield.
I think with the Initiative and Day/Night, people aren't annoyed by it if it's the central theme of someone's deck because presumably that player is going to be on top of it and it is relevant to the game. It's when someone plays one card that incidentally introduces it and they don't care otherwise.
it is not rhystic study taht is annoying it is the players that dont even give you a chance to announce that you are going to pay the one, that are annoying.
The thing that I find most annoying about top is on top of the time stuff is you can’t get rid of it because in response they put it on top of their library
Just use ur removal on whatever the payoff for Top is, tbh. On its own, Top doesn’t do a lot to further the game state for the controlling player, unless it’s part of a combo. Like, in an Elsha of the Infinite Deck, Top combined with cost reduction combos into Aetherflux Reservoir for a win. If you remove the cost reduction source or stop Aetherflux, then Top doesn’t matter in the end.
Day/Night should be a silverborder/Un-style mechanic but just in black border instead, like Syr Cadian, Knight Owl. " Daybound (When cast, If the time in your local time zone is between 6pm and 6am, this permanent enters flipped. Transform it at 6am.) Nightbound (When cast, If the time in your local time zone is between 6am and 6pm, this permanent enters flipped. Transform it at 6pm.) " Does it mean you can transform your werewolves in the middle of the game? I guess once in a blue moon if you happen to be playing around 5:50am/pm, which makes more thematic sense, because once in a blue moon is how often I see a werewolf in the first place hahaha Obviously this is a stupid mechanic but goddamn I'd prefer this even as the werewolf deck pilot, than the innocent opponents forced into a completely senseless thematically (how in the heck does casting spells in the magic world change time/position of the sun? Inb4 some convoluted reasoning like the sky filling with dark fog from the dust caused by magic or some other BS) alternating status for the whole game. As useless and pointless this change would be, it makes 4x more sense than WotC's desperate desire, but utter incompetence at a werewolf mechanic.
My only pushback on the Rhystic Study / Smothering Tithe comments are that - while it is the responsibility of the caster to ask if folks pay the 1 or 2 - players move *so* quickly through a series of spells their intending to sequence that just asking for them to pay is sometimes not possible. When there's not a window for the caster to even ask I don't think that is on the fault of the caster and exclusively on those being affected by it. Though this may not be a Rhystic / Tithe issue as much as it may be just a player issue - but still feel like its worth mentioning.
I think with a few of these cards, it really depends on how they're played. I'm totally on the same page about Cathars' Crusade, I took it out of so many token decks because I can't be bothered to constantly update dice. However, I do run it in my Elminster deck. Eventhough it also wins with tokens, It usually only ever creates one large batch at a time, so the counters become fairly straight forward, and they do generally also threaten lethal right away.
For what it's worth, each player doesn't have to keep track of the Initiative. As someone that plays with it often enough (especially on Spelltable), I tend to have 4 dice to keep track of the room each player is currently in on the token, and keeping track of who has it at any given time isn't that hard. I do the same thing any time I give players counters like poison or rad counters.
My play group use to have a big house ban list. Which eventually just became so restrictive that we decided to scrap it entirely. We changed our mentality to account for these annoying cards. If we know that someone runs a card that shuts off our decks strategy or does something that's just time consuming or confusing, we build around that to stop that effect. Annoying cards aren't annoying, they are a challenges to be removed/stopped.
Nadu in a landfall deck is so irritating. The turns take so long as they flip cards off the top of the library one at a time and any of the lands have tons of triggers. I played against one where the player took 5-10 minute turns to play 8 lands a turn, draw 20 cards a turn, and thought this was somehow a fun deck for the table
Nadu I'm sure will become another Tergrid where people will know its unfun after doing the thing a few times. Also just a shame the modern day commander rules committee low-key kind of just doesn't want to do any work and says "figure it out yourself rule 0 exists! :D" like yes but also stop. When was the last time we even had a change in the commander ban list . . . Think the most recent change was like unbanning world fire and how long ago was that ? It's kind of silly and feels like they do basically nothing while trying to act like they are somebody with the title of "commander rules committee" lol...
As a long standing Chainer player, Living Death is the hardest spell to resolve in my deck, smoothly. I will say after a decade, I’ve gotten quick, and a living death loop is REALLY fun to lock the game. Two of them from me though begins the one-sided effects.
For initiative you don't need all that. Just need one initiative token and one undercity. Just use different color dice for each person in the undercity and pass the actual initiative token around
I had the Champions of Kamigawa Sasuke premade deck back in the day that included Sensei's Divining Top as my first ever magic deck. I was born into this game ready to be a control mill player.
29:00 our meta plays that day/night is only in effect if there is a card on board that can make use of the ability. Once all cards are removed, day/night goes away and if another card comes back or is introduced, day/night starts over again on day. Works well enough so we don't have to track the thing all the time. only when it impacts the game.
The first time I ever played against a Mill deck Mesmeric Orb came down on Turn 2 and nobody could get rid of it for most of the game. And I was the first one down and out because I was the one who had to untap the most things every turn just to build up my board (the average CMC of the deck I was playing at the time was somewhat high around 4).
I am so glad to see the Aetherflux Reservoir mentioned; i just hate the pressure one player can have on the table...i definetly have to try out what Rachel suggested the next time i see it!
Pretty sure a couple of their staff is still on the commander rules committee they likely don't want to give any attention to that obvious problematic dumpster fire. Ban list hasn't seen any actual change for a while cuz "figure it out rule 0 exists ! :D" Nadu will fall into the same jank pile as Tergrid in time I'm sure especially since it's now banned out of most formats.
If “casual “ now means minimal effort easy mode in paying attention and only using ‘fun’ cards - the strategic aspect is lessened . I’ll be at the high power table pod playing all the annoying cards- see you there when you want a challenge
So correct me if I'm wrong but I remember hearing for tithe effects... you don't have to say "Do you pay?" every time - that's a courtesy you do for your opponents sake. The trigger happens regardless. Rules as written I believe you'd be within your rights to never remind them to pay, and if they don't remember to, get your card/treasure/whatever. Same with stuff like Forgotten Ancient getting counters every time somebody casts a spell - you dont NEED to remind the table every time that its happening. I think it comes down to play group if they'd find the constant questioning more annoying, or the sudden realization that the tithe player now has thirty treasures more annoying.
@@Malstrx Checked with a judge and you're correct! Its interesting cus I'm personally of the opinion that if I don't say I'm paying, assume I'm not paying. The constant reminders are more annoying to me. I'd rather ignore my bad decisions until they blow up in my face.
1:12:04 I love using Sensei’s Divining Top. I have it in my Post, Son of Rich deck. I would combo that card with Post Citadel and Aetherflux Reservoir as a win-con. It also saves me from milling certain cards that I tutor for. Even worse, Etali triggers 😂 I kept a nasty spell on top one time, because the other two spells was going to win me the game upon my turn
30:46 The longest game of commander I had was against two decks with sacrifice/recursion themes, and they both had Grave Pact out. and one of their things died on each persons turn, not just theirs.
Day/Night matters and is a key part of my Izzet Wizard Spell-slinging deck. My commander is Vadrik, so when it changes between day/night he gets bigger and my sorceries and instants get cheaper. 🙂
As somebody that plays an aristocrats deck, that has some similar creatures to mayhem devil. I find it easiest just to target life totals. It's also usually the best option long term so you can close out games.
I think Nevinyrral's Disk and similar cards are a weird case of being more annoying to the person playing them than to opponents. The correct response from the pod is come after you and even if you're okay with being the archenemy you are then suddenly the one having to deal with basically every interaction until you use the card or get knocked out.
There are many ways to handle Crystalline Giant. One fun way would be to have a small deck of cards. One for each counter type. Shuffle it. When combat starts reveal the top card each time, then put it under the creature card as the counter, until it has them all. If it somehow loses a counter (or gains one another way) adjust the deck’s contents accordingly and give it a very quick shuffle. The rolling of dice being a poor solution isn’t the card’s fault. Also, if you read this far, do you have an even more elegant solution than the one I just made up?
Even if you roll a dice you can just count forward the number you rolled to the next type of counter you don't have. I played this card only once and we came up with that on the spot and that worked fine. (Did have infinitokens).
1:22:19 not always true! I have a River Song deck that really loves puzzle box. Mainly because it doesn’t work on her. She cares about people searching their libraries and such
I have a Hama Pashar deck that includes just about every "delve" and "initiative" trigger there is in W/U. I just use an oversized Undercity map, and if multiple people are in it, we just use a different coloured die. I agree with Rachel: its fun because you won't always see it in a game. It's very niche .
I usually use Coat of Arms more like a Craterhoof - just cast it after you've already gone wide for the alpha strike. Once you're in the 15+ tokens range, calculations are usually unnecessary.
From oracle: "If The Meathook Massacre enters the battlefield and it wasn't cast (or it was cast without paying its mana cost), X will be 0. The first ability will trigger, but it won't be much of a massacre."
So surprised that tergrid is not in the list... like discard each turn. It ends up in a topdecking situation for the whole table making the games long and borring. Also, coat of arm as an S tier? It's so damn easy to keep track. The only way it becomes hard to track is if no one plays boardwipes or attacks. Most of the times it just a finisher or give just a little extra power.
Teferi's Puzzle Box makes it so that no players can look at their hand on other turns to plan out their turn. We will always have a new hand every turn and you just don't know what you're gonna have to work with. I consider it to be a chaos card, like a lot of red chaos cards (which would also be listed here).
The one card on this list that I love and play is Rhystic Study. The only apology I will offer about it is that I don’t /have/ to draw a card, so I don’t have to ask if you pay the 1, and you don’t have to put up with me trying to retcon the sequencing of your turn. If I have the cards I want, I’m really not going to risk having to discard because I wasn’t able to empty my hand effectively enough before my next end step.
7:33 if you want a Cathar’s Crusade type effect that is less tedious, try Starlight Spectacular from Unfinity. If you’re swinging with a wide board, it is basically the same thing, but the boost is only temporary so you don’t need to keep track of the +1/+1 counters. Edit: and it’s less than a dollar, vs Cathar’s Crusade being ≈$10
Monarch is often regarded as the best mechanic for commander, so it surprises me that the initiative could be on this list. Sure, there's a bit more going on with it but it plays very similarly.
Using only the cards/archetypes from your list, here is my ranking: S (I will not play these): Day/Night, Winter Orb, Grave Pact A (I play these only in high(er) powered decks): Charismatic Conquerer, Toxrill, Rhystic Study, Sensei's Top B (I play these only when the deck really needs them): Smothering Tithe, Cathars Crusade, Constant Mists C (It's a bit annoying, but not enough to make me not play these): Crystalline Giant, Mayhem Devil, Seedborn Muse, Living Death, Slivers D (I can see why other people find these annoying, but I do not): Ledger Shredder, Shoeldred, Dauthi, Meathook (Aristocrats), Initiative, Teferi's Puzzel Box/Wheels F (These are just normal cards and not annoying at all): Coat of Arms, Orvar (assuming the player bringing the deck is prepared), Mesmeric Orb, Nevs Disk No rank (I have never played with or against these cards): Telepathy What is missing the most, in my opinion, are fetch lands, which would be a "B" for me. They just take so much time and most decks can do very good without them
conqueror wont trigger if the creatures enter tapped is one things, but another annoying thing i realized is if two players each have him out they have a consecrated spinx type loop going where they can give eachother infinite tokens if they both keep going
I wouldn’t mind Cathars’ Crusade if the people who play it brought enough dice and tokens, but they never do. It’s always stuff like “This die represents a number of +1/+1 counters and this other die represents the number of Soldier tokens that have that number of +1/+1 counters on them” and the dice are the same color.
Cards that kill the pacing of a game with too many small triggers -- Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe Cards that win games without needing much work or synergy -- Teferi's Protection, Cyclonic Rift, and Inkshield Cards that are really oppressive to creatures -- No Mercy, The Abyss, Grave Pact Cards that halt the game -- Stasis, Winter Orb, Armageddon
On triggers like tithe and rhystic, I actually take the alternate view that it’s all players responsibility (as much as possible, of course) to remember them.
![Gunna - HIM ALL ALONG [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HiCxoDeo0hc/mqdefault.jpg)
What cards annoy you most at the commander table?
Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe.
Armageddon
green cards
You should look at cards not as annoying but as hard puzzles to solve or, in the case of Cathar's Crusade, a different playstyle approach. Not all are for everyone but I dont mind trying to figure my way out of a game where someone drops a Winter Orb turn 5 and the board is locked. Some find it annoying or wasteful but I like to look at it like I said before a puzzle to solve.
I'm posting this prior to watching. I will be disappointed if Ixidron isn't on the list. Edit will occur when I finish watching.
Edit: Disappointed :/ Also, I have a tap matters deck and Mesmeric Orb didn't make the cut specifically because of the reasons mentioned, as well as straight up just wanting to not do a Labman/Thoracle win condition.
I have a pretty simple rule for my takes on this subject:
Cards you are playing - annoying/cringe
Cards I am playing - awesome and cool
^ this guy knows whats up
So true
Your shit is your shit my stuff is my stuff.
100% every MTG player ever. When I do it, "it's part of the game bro." Anyone else does it and it's cheese.
They forgot to mention the most annoying part of Seedborn Muse… when people always say “you mean OUR untap step? 🤪”
I play it in my OG Omnath deck but I also hate when people say that and I never do.
Haha so clever never heard that one before players who say that are soooooo good at the card game. So witty
But it's funny
Lmao
you have to do it and its objectively funny
Commandzone over here just providing me with a new deck list in the form of a video talking about random cards.
Toxrill is a card that when someone plays it, it becomes a game where "I don't care if I win, I just need you to lose"
The Most Annoying Cards in Commander are the ones that that guy over there is playing. _YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!_
Guilty as charged. 🥹
It's me
It's always my opponent. I'm innocent...... I'll leave..
Hey! I laminated Index Cards with Premade Tokens and a Summoning sick mat that is laminated construction paper for my Token deck with Cathars Crusade. Now that I type it out... I KNOW WHO I AM!
That one guy with seedborn muse out lol "It's our Untap bro"
The extra issue with Slivers...
Some buff up ALL Slivers. Some buff up all of YOUR slivers. When a different player plays a changeling, that creature gets SOME of the buffs.
That's not really an issue, it's pretty straight forward
You forgot the most annoying part of Coat of Arms:
Creature. Type. Errata.
This was me learning mid-game that all the splicers and all the Golems they make are Phyrexian, when my opponent dropped Coat of Arms.
[vine boom] 1,197 CARDS AFFECTED
Tfw no more viashino... :(
@@thestorythiefWhat happened to viashino?
@@gregallan4291lizards now, and cephalid are octopus
Most frustration in commander games can be midigated by knowing the cards in your deck and paying attention to the game. When you biuld a deck make sure you gold fish it and make sure your prepared to play the deck. If you need alot of tokens or dice make sure you have them. I am very rarely annoyed by players paying attention and planning ahead for their turn even if they are playing complicated cards.
It's a shame locally for me most players in pods are often on their phone and half paying attention to the game. I started in Avacyn Restored , had a good couple years break , worked in LGS's combined around 4 years. For whatever reason in my time playing most people are very uninterested in giving their full attention , it's a shame :(
It's not even a case of a player in the pod playing a very solitaire combo deck or anything all the decks could be battle cruiser and people just don't care if it's not their turn and don't actively have interaction. Slows games down so much to catch people up to speed when they try and do something then something else triggers that they weren't aware of souly because on they weren't paying attention.
@@zackwilcox3183That is a shame. Magic is such a rich and complex game. People build amazing decks and it is cool to see what other players put together but you do definitely need to pay attention to catch all the cool interactions.
The longer the turn, the more annoying it is
Most frustration in commander games can be mitigated by knowing the cards in your deck and paying attention to the game. When you build a deck, make sure to goldfish it so you are prepared to play the deck. If your deck needs any tokens or dice, ensure you have them. I am very rarely annoyed by players who pay attention and plan ahead for their turn, even if they are playing complicated cards.
None of this makes Rhystic Study any less frustrating to play against
20:42 for the Crystaline Giant i always plan ahead. So i have a small black fabric bag with each type of counter inside it. Then i just draw one at random or let another player draw at random. If a counter is removed from the giant, it goes back in the bag. If a counter is somehow put on it in another way, i just grab the counter from the bag and put it on it. And of course, i show all the tokens before the game or when i play the giant. So that works alright. I just have to keep the bag with the deck that has the giant. But i only have the giant in one of my decks.
That’s so much extra work for one card lol. I respect the effort though.
Yeah, what a courteous move. 😂
Someone made a website you can use to keep track that randomizes it
Yeah I thought of that too. Not really any different than having a copy of all the types of tokens your deck can make, and moxfield gives you an easy list. Though I might be in the minority for even doing that lol, it's normal for my playgroup but they are mostly the only people I play with.
I made a site as a project where it just does this for you. It randomizes what you get and ensures there's no repeat without having you to do the work. Would link it if I could find it again
Surprising rule clarification for charismatic conqueror. It says, "when an artifact or creature enters untapped..." So if you have, say blind obedience, you don't get the 1/1s through conqueror.
i think they were just talking about cards that do similar things to the charismatic conqueror not listing cards that work with it
It's the opposite:
Whenever an artifact or creature an opponent controls enters untapped, they may tap that permanent. If they don't, you create a 1/1 white Vampire creature token with lifelink.
And from the ruling:
If the permanent is tapped as the ability resolves, the opponent can't choose to tap it, so you'll create a Vampire token. Similarly, if it's no longer on the battlefield as the ability resolves, they can't choose to tap it, and you'll create a Vampire token.
EDIT: I'm wrong, it specifies enters untapped. Got confuse with the panharmonicon synergies.
@@SimWOT That's not correct. If it enters tapped, Conqueror never triggers to begin with. This is referring more to something like a mana rock that could enter untapped but then be tapped before the trigger resolves.
Creatures that enter tapped and attacking do not trigger CC. It has to satisfy the condition of entering untapped before it triggers.
@@HakureiIllusion you're right.
Turn 4: Annointed Procession (no creatures in play)
Turn 5: Cathar’s Crusade (still no creatures)
Turn 6: Pass with mana up. EoT before you go, cast Secure the Wastes for 5 (10 due to Procession), put 110 power onto the battlefield.
😂
My Will, Scion of Peace deck would likely have you throwing a chair at me…
"Of course I know him, he's me."
@@Dragon_Fyre I don’t play any of these cards. 😂
I’m just giving a scenario that would be kinda hilarious.
You forgot the turn 3 Coat of Arms. 😂
@@thomaspetrucka9173 Swing for 200. 😂
*
I was using turns assuming you didn’t play anything ahead of the natural one-land-per-turn curve.
I think what Rachel says at 13:02 is inaccurate. Reading the effect, it says something needs to enter untapped to begin with. Therefore, having a Blind Obedience effect already on board should circumvent the whole trigger and not give you the Vampire token.
Correct! Good catch. Same with the few cards that say "when you tap an opponents creature, do X" if they enter tapped you don't get to do the thing
@@123abcvolleyball Can you explain how that is the same? It is one thing for it being tapped by another Ability (e.g. another Charismatic Conqueror), but to enter tapped to begin with should not trigger "Whenever... enters the battlefiels *untapped* and...".
@@123abcvolleyballthis is wrong. This is if they're tapped as the ability "resolves". That ruling was in response to things like mana rocks that could be tapped for mana before the ability resolves. Clarifying that in THAT situation you would still get the 1/1. If an effect causes the permanent to enter tapped the ability wouldn't trigger at all based on the fact that it's worded "if enters untapped".
It's interesting how my perspective on annoying cards has changed over the years. It started off being cards that were just really good and I would lose to all the time, and now it's a mix of that and cards that are too complicated resolve or take too many game actions and are time consuming.
Absolutely agree.
Like, if we're in a game where we didn't specificaly agree on to play theme decks, slightly upgraded precons or just general chill vibes with my friends, all gloves are off, hit me as hard as you can. I'll accept whatever strong cards you play.
But dear lord, will I lose intrest and glaze off during the game, if there are cards that require me to keep a shops worth of dice with me & keep track of a single card that forces me to keep track of 5 different things it causes
They didn't mention Ward of Bones "Each opponent who controls more creatures than you can't play creature cards. The same is true for artifacts, enchantments, and lands." this just shuts other peoples decks down or slows them so much, S+ annoying card for me
Simple rules we encourage for tokens and dice.
Use at least two tokens (but no more than three) to represent tapped and untapped creatures (or if summoning sickness matters).
Use tiny D6 dice to track +1/+1 counters.
Large dice from D8 to D20 can be used to count amounts of tokens in a "pile", other kinds of counters, and anything else that is being tracked (cards in yard, devotion, affinity, etc).
I feel like the most annoying part of commander is player indecision or inaction based off of not wanting to make enemies. It makes the game so much longer
47:30 Mayhem Devil “in the hands of players who don’t want to make enemies…”? I feel like those players shouldn’t be running Mayhem Devil. That’s on them. 😂
I think y'all are overstating how much extra clutter Initiative adds.. You keep one collective Undercity dungeon card and use a bunch of dice or whatever in different colors (which you pretty much always have already for +1/1 counters) to track where each player is in the initiative, and just move that one card in front of the player who currently has the initiative. If you do it that way you're adding exactly one card to the stuff you already needed to have at the table for a Commander game without Initiative..
Truth. Initiative is awesome. The longer the video goes, the less it's about actual annoying cards and the more it's complaining about "powerful" effects.
yup thats how me and my playgroup do it also.. dont understand the issue?
Agreed I think it’s very easy to play with and doesn’t add clutter at all.
I usually use one collective oversized undercity card to place markers for the players and one normal sized initiative card to hand around the table. In webcam games I add the initiative card to my spelltable command zone, so that everyone can easily read it. I think it's a really fun mechanic even if it takes a little bit work to track.
That's pretty clever man!
Day night is the poster child of that time when wizards thougth it was going to be a videogame company.
The most annoying cards in commander are....
Jimmy: anything that isn't a land when I need it
I have a pain and suffering deck where the wincon is my opponent's frustration. I'm gonna add all of these.
I have a initiative based deck, and in my playgroup after the initiative is introduced we track it by each player putting a die of their choice on the room they enter, and me as the player keep track of who has it. And we use infinitokens for the treasure and skeleton tokens
I agree that the initiative isn't a big deal. Decks that are focused around that mechanic are usually equipped to manage it. Very very few cards with the initiative slip into lists not focused on that mechanic. White Plume Archer is literally the only intiative card that I've seen pop up in decks that are not initiative decks.
This is the way👍 friend of mine plays a pauper / dimir / initiative commander (can't remember the name right now), super efficient this way
The up-front logistics cost of Initiative isn't trivial, but if you can get the rules down and the tokens set it can inject a lot of fuel into a game.
I bought a cheap wooden board with the Undercity on it + an oversized "initiative card" off Etsy for maybe $20? Had some old DnD minis that I now keep in a bag next to my token box. When initiative gets triggered or taken, that person picks a mini out of the bag and places it on the Undercity map, which can just go in the middle of the table alongside the life tracker. Now everyone can easily track where they, and everyone else, are in the Undercity.
We all spend so much money on this hobby. This extra $20 was an easy thing to justify for me just for how simple it makes the whole mechanic. And it's fun!
34:20 I understand how annoying the Initiative can be, but emphasizing the Skeleton Token, Treasure Token, and additional dice need seems silly, when if you’re in a good playgroup, someone has extra dice and infinitokens. The additional Undercity token is the only thing that makes it annoying imo, but the onus on that is for the person who bring The Initiative into the game to have 4 Undercity trackers. If they don’t, I agree it should rank highly as annoying, but emphasizing the rest of the stuff needed for it to work just seems silly and petty.
i always have 4 undercity and 1 initiative token ready every game. and a few 4/1's and treasures. the only problem with dungeons is that its op and wins super fast with a combo nobody else gets to use them!
Suppose my playgroup isn’t “good” enough then 🤷♂️
FS, I've never thought initiative was annoying, because I've only ever played with it in these circumstances. The player always brings extra copies of the undercity, we have plenty of dice and tokens available for use, and often times we emphasize who has it with real world objects like a hat, or our personal favorite, a stuffed baby doll. I only realized people found the initiative annoying thanks to online threads and videos like these.
Funny story about Charismatic Conqueror. Was playing against my roommate's un-upgraded Ixalan vampires precon with this card in it, it was getting a bit annoying, and I drew into a Crafty Cutpurse in my upgraded Ixalan pirates precon, and...you get the picture. My Cutpurse enters, I decline to tap it, my roommate goes to create a token from Conqueror, but my Cutpurse says that I make instead. When my token enters under my control, I again decline to tap it, triggering Conqueror, which triggers the Cutpurse, and I do this about 25 times, just to make a point.
I feel like Grave Pact misses the mark of annoying. It's oppressive, it can essentially turn off certain decks, it's powerful, but it's not difficult to function or remember and it doesn't lead to appreciably longer turns
Yeah, as someone who plays a lot of black, I am tired of Grave Pact and similar cards being referred to as annoying or asocial or whatever by content creators when what they are is a) effective and b) an essential part of the color pie. Black is good at killing stuff. It goes after creatures. On the color wheel, it is opposite green, the color most based around creatures. Effects like Grave Pact, No Mercy, etc are a balance against over-reliance on creatures. Yes, they can be rough against certain strategies which are over-reliant on creatures, such as voltron, and on decks which don’t run a lot of creatures but rely on their commanders, but that is not a bad thing. There should be a cost to putting all your eggs in one basket. Voltron is weak to Grave Pact like artifact decks are weak to Vandalblast. It is called game balance.
Lim Dul’s Vault.
“This isnt the PERFECT five”
i've cast it a few times, and i just cope with the cards seeming decent enough. like there's another evasive threat, a good land or two, and maybe a neat artifact. sure i guess. if it's all lands i'm going again usually
Shoutout to Lavinia of the Tenth, a card I wish I didn't know existed! One of my friends abuses it in his flicker deck and shuts off every other player for turns at a time while he sits back and generates a ton of value without actually going for a win. Definitely more of a build-around than most of these, but ridiculously annoying in the same vein as the pillowfort stax cards.
You can tell I'm the green player, because my answer is free counterspells. 😂
JK, I haven't run into them all that much. But it is frustrating that they aren't telegraphed. You can't even say "just expect it if they have cards in hand." because they're in blue! They'll ALWAYS have cards in hand!
Not to mention that most of them are prohibitively expensive.
Love Coat of Arms in my Prossh deck! No one expects 6 0/1 Kobolds turning into 5/6 Kobolds.
Yeah, all these cards need the right home. I play it in my Adeline deck. Sure, you have a couple of 12/12 humans, but I have 9 12/12 humans myself.
Same with Cathar's Crusade, it ends the game quickly in that deck.
@@commanderpower99 Cathar's crusade is a lot of triggers and counters. There is no denying that it's a lot of work to manage. I don't understand the hate on coat of arms though.
Yeah coat of arms is a totally fine card. They talk about it like it's hitting the table turn 2 and every combat for the next 5 rounds is under the shadow of its math, but in reality it's a finisher and the decks that run it don't care that the effect is symmetrical.
@@fgnsfgnsfgnexactly I keep this in my hand until I have an opening to kill the table with my pirates, it is simply a finisher. I never play it as a value card
Used as a finisher is nice. The issue is, I play against a friend with a humans deck that also gets pumped with this effect.
So for Prossh I find BEASTMASTER ASCENSION much better!
I don't think people have ejected coat of arms because it's annoying. I think they've ejected it because it is a symmetrical "win-more" card. The first time you die because someone plays a "secure the wastes" and your coat of arms makes the tokens 8/8 and beats you down with them, you think "maybe paying 4 mana and a card to pump your opponent's stuff isn't that good."
There are also way way more good finisher cards in every color than there used to be for go wide decks that can't accidentally lose you a game.
Once, someone had a Coat of Arms in their elf deck against my Neera, Wild Mage deck, which is an elf. I ended up winning with commander damage a first for that deck I will never forget. They never expected it and I was quiet about it until I swung
Nothing takes the wind out of a games sails like an uncontested Farewell
I do hate that little girl, but is the only answer sometimes
I rescind all previous statements and move to support this opinion.
@wcreative5889 It is far too good. It is _the_ boardwipe - any other is comparatively meaningless. Consider that in the premium set of MH3, in black, the other color generally capable of removal, they printed a laughable caricature of the card.
@@lVideoWatcherl Toxic Deluge, Cyclonic Rift, Blasphemous Act, March of Otherworldly Light, Fire Covenant, The Meathook Massacre etc. - lots of great board wipes (quite a few which are better than Farewell most of the time - fully clearing the board for 6 mana is generally overrated as you are usually putting yourself last in turn order to rebuild ...)
@@wchenful March isn't even a board wipe. It's single target removal. Fire Covenant is enormously weak compared to any of the cards you mentioned there, unless you're leagues ahead, that card will not get you to parity, much less to a commanding position. And apart from Cyclonic rift, you didn't mention a single other boardwipe that could actually wipe not just creatures... I get the sincere feeling that the meta you personally play in significantly skews your ability to accurately evaluate cards.
day/night is the worst mechanic wizards may ever make. it's annoying, it's not fun, it's not strong, and doesn't interact with the previous werewolf mechanics at all. it's the ultimate draft chaff.
Hey don't forget that the original innistrad flip cards work sliiiightly differently lol. It's what stopped me from building a werewolf deck, I didn't want to have to deal with day/night stuff constantly.
Agreed
It's honestly such a shame , concept wise could be cool have cards change dependent on it being day or night could work with things outside if specifically werewolves but it is so clunky and confusing and difficult to keep track of most of the time in commander. It's a darn shame. One of those on paper cool in practice bad.
Never ever have I met anyone who gets annoyed by the Innitiative. It gives every player the chance to mana fix, it opens up politics, gives incentive to attack more often, has modes that are interesting for most decks and also is not that hard to track if the player in charge brings either enough copies or of the big versions.
I once built a Sen Triplets deck that was also a Sliver deck, as a joke. Just to see how fast the entire table would want to destroy me. It was pretty much immediately, which I found hilarious. Pretty much disassembled as soon as I came home. Didn't even get to cast my Telepathy.
"Which cards are annoying in Commander?"
"Yes"
Hi, math guy checking in!
The distribution of throwing two d6s IS NOT the same as a d12.
With two d6s, you'll quickly realize that 6+1 = 1+6 = 2+5 = ... = 7 whereas only 6+6 = 12
Its also impossible to get a 1 with 2 d6...
@@underpaidoverworked4250 Yes, but they said that in the video already
So it is actually the everybody else's responsibility to pay. The owner of the card(s) don't legally have to ask. It's just common courtisy. So as annoying as it may be, they can actually just stop being curious and stop asking, to be less annoying. 1:07:03
Man, I was really hoping this would be like one of those everyone in the office is involved in the video. Still a great video tho!
I use both a the Initiative and Monarch in my Obeka, Splitter of Seconds deck. Because I’m using a ton of Unblockable effects I have a good chance of getting either or both back from whoever takes it from me, and generate immediate value by getting multiple Upkeeps from Obeka’s ability.
I'm quite fond of Charismatic Conquerer in my Bant Hardened Scales Galadriel deck, but even I won't touch Cathar's Crusade.
Cathar’s Crusade is good, but it’s a headache
@willtactix Yeah, I end up not running Cathar's Crusade and Doubling Season in that particular deck because I don't want to spend the mana to drop a big enchantment when I can instead drop a Hardened Scales and start casting creatures and generating creature tokens to maximize Galadriel's three abilities. Especially having Cathar's Crusade in there is just too win-more for my tastes. I already have a time dealing with the counters I make now.
43:19 - that's because it isn't a boardwipe Jimmy, it's a reanimation spell!
I love this card and use it in a few decks, but people seem to either love it or hate it. Usually after it's been out, they start to hate it. Timesifter
I love the initiative. I have an Abdel Adrian / Dungeon Delver deck with Hama Pashar as the "second" commander. It's a heavy Blink deck, and one of the win-cons is just hitting the Trap room so much I drain the table.
So I have started running more "permenant" removal in ALL of my decks regardless of color, just so that I can have answers to these kinds of cards. Like Grave Pact for example, I don't really mind if my opponents run it even against my creature based decks. Because I know that it won't last very long on the battlefield.
what about that dirty little Human that is a Wizard at slowing the game down for 3 full turns until someone wastes a removal... Drannith Magistrate
I think with the Initiative and Day/Night, people aren't annoyed by it if it's the central theme of someone's deck because presumably that player is going to be on top of it and it is relevant to the game. It's when someone plays one card that incidentally introduces it and they don't care otherwise.
Four Undercity cards?
Nah! Just one large-size Undercity with four small dice. 😎
it is not rhystic study taht is annoying it is the players that dont even give you a chance to announce that you are going to pay the one, that are annoying.
My friends call nev's disk the "oh shit button".
The thing that I find most annoying about top is on top of the time stuff is you can’t get rid of it because in response they put it on top of their library
Right?! You basically need 2 removal spells or a way to shuffle their library
Just use ur removal on whatever the payoff for Top is, tbh.
On its own, Top doesn’t do a lot to further the game state for the controlling player, unless it’s part of a combo.
Like, in an Elsha of the Infinite Deck, Top combined with cost reduction combos into Aetherflux Reservoir for a win. If you remove the cost reduction source or stop Aetherflux, then Top doesn’t matter in the end.
Day/Night should be a silverborder/Un-style mechanic but just in black border instead, like Syr Cadian, Knight Owl.
" Daybound (When cast, If the time in your local time zone is between 6pm and 6am, this permanent enters flipped. Transform it at 6am.)
Nightbound (When cast, If the time in your local time zone is between 6am and 6pm, this permanent enters flipped. Transform it at 6pm.) "
Does it mean you can transform your werewolves in the middle of the game? I guess once in a blue moon if you happen to be playing around 5:50am/pm, which makes more thematic sense, because once in a blue moon is how often I see a werewolf in the first place hahaha
Obviously this is a stupid mechanic but goddamn I'd prefer this even as the werewolf deck pilot, than the innocent opponents forced into a completely senseless thematically (how in the heck does casting spells in the magic world change time/position of the sun? Inb4 some convoluted reasoning like the sky filling with dark fog from the dust caused by magic or some other BS) alternating status for the whole game. As useless and pointless this change would be, it makes 4x more sense than WotC's desperate desire, but utter incompetence at a werewolf mechanic.
Day / Night?
Void Walker?
Void Winnower?
Grave Pact / Dictate?
NO THANKS!
Coat of Arms really ain't that bad, most people use it as a finisher rather than a card that sits on the board for 5 turns.
Seems like a pretty solid list of staples to buy.
My only pushback on the Rhystic Study / Smothering Tithe comments are that - while it is the responsibility of the caster to ask if folks pay the 1 or 2 - players move *so* quickly through a series of spells their intending to sequence that just asking for them to pay is sometimes not possible. When there's not a window for the caster to even ask I don't think that is on the fault of the caster and exclusively on those being affected by it. Though this may not be a Rhystic / Tithe issue as much as it may be just a player issue - but still feel like its worth mentioning.
I think with a few of these cards, it really depends on how they're played.
I'm totally on the same page about Cathars' Crusade, I took it out of so many token decks because I can't be bothered to constantly update dice. However, I do run it in my Elminster deck. Eventhough it also wins with tokens, It usually only ever creates one large batch at a time, so the counters become fairly straight forward, and they do generally also threaten lethal right away.
Coat of Arms is an overrun that you play on your turn that you win. Don't play it unless you win that turn with it!!!
For what it's worth, each player doesn't have to keep track of the Initiative. As someone that plays with it often enough (especially on Spelltable), I tend to have 4 dice to keep track of the room each player is currently in on the token, and keeping track of who has it at any given time isn't that hard. I do the same thing any time I give players counters like poison or rad counters.
My play group use to have a big house ban list. Which eventually just became so restrictive that we decided to scrap it entirely. We changed our mentality to account for these annoying cards. If we know that someone runs a card that shuts off our decks strategy or does something that's just time consuming or confusing, we build around that to stop that effect. Annoying cards aren't annoying, they are a challenges to be removed/stopped.
Nadu in a landfall deck is so irritating. The turns take so long as they flip cards off the top of the library one at a time and any of the lands have tons of triggers. I played against one where the player took 5-10 minute turns to play 8 lands a turn, draw 20 cards a turn, and thought this was somehow a fun deck for the table
We all get it. Nadu is busted
Nadu I'm sure will become another Tergrid where people will know its unfun after doing the thing a few times.
Also just a shame the modern day commander rules committee low-key kind of just doesn't want to do any work and says "figure it out yourself rule 0 exists! :D" like yes but also stop. When was the last time we even had a change in the commander ban list . . . Think the most recent change was like unbanning world fire and how long ago was that ? It's kind of silly and feels like they do basically nothing while trying to act like they are somebody with the title of "commander rules committee" lol...
As a long standing Chainer player, Living Death is the hardest spell to resolve in my deck, smoothly. I will say after a decade, I’ve gotten quick, and a living death loop is REALLY fun to lock the game. Two of them from me though begins the one-sided effects.
I think you would love my Mycotyrant deck with living death, Mesmeric Orb and nearly every possible different drain effect 🙂
For initiative you don't need all that. Just need one initiative token and one undercity. Just use different color dice for each person in the undercity and pass the actual initiative token around
I had the Champions of Kamigawa Sasuke premade deck back in the day that included Sensei's Divining Top as my first ever magic deck. I was born into this game ready to be a control mill player.
29:00 our meta plays that day/night is only in effect if there is a card on board that can make use of the ability. Once all cards are removed, day/night goes away and if another card comes back or is introduced, day/night starts over again on day. Works well enough so we don't have to track the thing all the time. only when it impacts the game.
The first time I ever played against a Mill deck Mesmeric Orb came down on Turn 2 and nobody could get rid of it for most of the game. And I was the first one down and out because I was the one who had to untap the most things every turn just to build up my board (the average CMC of the deck I was playing at the time was somewhat high around 4).
I absolutely love that card!
Rachel was the best addition to this show ever, absolutely love her energy, insight, and warmth as a host!
Thanks for all the suggestions of what cards to add to my decks! 😊
For day/night there is a card that turns it to night: "unnatural moonrise" and you can even flash it back.
I am so glad to see the Aetherflux Reservoir mentioned; i just hate the pressure one player can have on the table...i definetly have to try out what Rachel suggested the next time i see it!
Crystalline Giant - you could bring a hat with each name written in it and then have whoever wants to draw from the hat.
Polite include... Nadu... it is an egregious play pattern to play against, cedh and edh both
Pretty sure a couple of their staff is still on the commander rules committee they likely don't want to give any attention to that obvious problematic dumpster fire. Ban list hasn't seen any actual change for a while cuz "figure it out rule 0 exists ! :D" Nadu will fall into the same jank pile as Tergrid in time I'm sure especially since it's now banned out of most formats.
As long as treasures have a tap ability, I will not stop running blind obedience.
If “casual “ now means minimal effort easy mode in paying attention and only using ‘fun’ cards - the strategic aspect is lessened . I’ll be at the high power table pod playing all the annoying cards- see you there when you want a challenge
So correct me if I'm wrong but I remember hearing for tithe effects... you don't have to say "Do you pay?" every time - that's a courtesy you do for your opponents sake. The trigger happens regardless. Rules as written I believe you'd be within your rights to never remind them to pay, and if they don't remember to, get your card/treasure/whatever. Same with stuff like Forgotten Ancient getting counters every time somebody casts a spell - you dont NEED to remind the table every time that its happening. I think it comes down to play group if they'd find the constant questioning more annoying, or the sudden realization that the tithe player now has thirty treasures more annoying.
You have to announce your triggers bc technically priority passes every time you have a trigger.
@@Malstrx Checked with a judge and you're correct! Its interesting cus I'm personally of the opinion that if I don't say I'm paying, assume I'm not paying. The constant reminders are more annoying to me. I'd rather ignore my bad decisions until they blow up in my face.
1:12:04 I love using Sensei’s Divining Top. I have it in my Post, Son of Rich deck. I would combo that card with Post Citadel and Aetherflux Reservoir as a win-con. It also saves me from milling certain cards that I tutor for. Even worse, Etali triggers 😂 I kept a nasty spell on top one time, because the other two spells was going to win me the game upon my turn
30:46 The longest game of commander I had was against two decks with sacrifice/recursion themes, and they both had Grave Pact out. and one of their things died on each persons turn, not just theirs.
These would be a nice addition to my decks
Day/Night matters and is a key part of my Izzet Wizard Spell-slinging deck. My commander is Vadrik, so when it changes between day/night he gets bigger and my sorceries and instants get cheaper. 🙂
As somebody that plays an aristocrats deck, that has some similar creatures to mayhem devil. I find it easiest just to target life totals. It's also usually the best option long term so you can close out games.
I think Nevinyrral's Disk and similar cards are a weird case of being more annoying to the person playing them than to opponents. The correct response from the pod is come after you and even if you're okay with being the archenemy you are then suddenly the one having to deal with basically every interaction until you use the card or get knocked out.
My top 10 list:
10) Thassa's oracle
9) Rhystic study/Esper sentinel
8) Smothering Tithe
7) Stasis
6) Humility
5) Thieves auction
4) Vorenclex, Voice of hunger
3) Gaduuk Teeg
2) Narset, parter of veils
1) Winter orb
There are many ways to handle Crystalline Giant. One fun way would be to have a small deck of cards. One for each counter type. Shuffle it. When combat starts reveal the top card each time, then put it under the creature card as the counter, until it has them all.
If it somehow loses a counter (or gains one another way) adjust the deck’s contents accordingly and give it a very quick shuffle.
The rolling of dice being a poor solution isn’t the card’s fault. Also, if you read this far, do you have an even more elegant solution than the one I just made up?
Even if you roll a dice you can just count forward the number you rolled to the next type of counter you don't have. I played this card only once and we came up with that on the spot and that worked fine. (Did have infinitokens).
That method with the dice probably creates some probability issues on what gets picked.
1:22:19 not always true! I have a River Song deck that really loves puzzle box. Mainly because it doesn’t work on her. She cares about people searching their libraries and such
I have a Hama Pashar deck that includes just about every "delve" and "initiative" trigger there is in W/U.
I just use an oversized Undercity map, and if multiple people are in it, we just use a different coloured die.
I agree with Rachel: its fun because you won't always see it in a game. It's very niche .
1:01:49 You mentioned Doppelgang, my Patreon answer! Thank you!! 😢😊❤
I usually use Coat of Arms more like a Craterhoof - just cast it after you've already gone wide for the alpha strike. Once you're in the 15+ tokens range, calculations are usually unnecessary.
From oracle: "If The Meathook Massacre enters the battlefield and it wasn't cast (or it was cast without paying its mana cost), X will be 0. The first ability will trigger, but it won't be much of a massacre."
So surprised that tergrid is not in the list... like discard each turn. It ends up in a topdecking situation for the whole table making the games long and borring.
Also, coat of arm as an S tier? It's so damn easy to keep track. The only way it becomes hard to track is if no one plays boardwipes or attacks. Most of the times it just a finisher or give just a little extra power.
Teferi's Puzzle Box makes it so that no players can look at their hand on other turns to plan out their turn. We will always have a new hand every turn and you just don't know what you're gonna have to work with. I consider it to be a chaos card, like a lot of red chaos cards (which would also be listed here).
The one card on this list that I love and play is Rhystic Study. The only apology I will offer about it is that I don’t /have/ to draw a card, so I don’t have to ask if you pay the 1, and you don’t have to put up with me trying to retcon the sequencing of your turn. If I have the cards I want, I’m really not going to risk having to discard because I wasn’t able to empty my hand effectively enough before my next end step.
7:33 if you want a Cathar’s Crusade type effect that is less tedious, try Starlight Spectacular from Unfinity. If you’re swinging with a wide board, it is basically the same thing, but the boost is only temporary so you don’t need to keep track of the +1/+1 counters.
Edit: and it’s less than a dollar, vs Cathar’s Crusade being ≈$10
Monarch is often regarded as the best mechanic for commander, so it surprises me that the initiative could be on this list. Sure, there's a bit more going on with it but it plays very similarly.
Using only the cards/archetypes from your list, here is my ranking:
S (I will not play these): Day/Night, Winter Orb, Grave Pact
A (I play these only in high(er) powered decks): Charismatic Conquerer, Toxrill, Rhystic Study, Sensei's Top
B (I play these only when the deck really needs them): Smothering Tithe, Cathars Crusade, Constant Mists
C (It's a bit annoying, but not enough to make me not play these): Crystalline Giant, Mayhem Devil, Seedborn Muse, Living Death, Slivers
D (I can see why other people find these annoying, but I do not): Ledger Shredder, Shoeldred, Dauthi, Meathook (Aristocrats), Initiative, Teferi's Puzzel Box/Wheels
F (These are just normal cards and not annoying at all): Coat of Arms, Orvar (assuming the player bringing the deck is prepared), Mesmeric Orb, Nevs Disk
No rank (I have never played with or against these cards): Telepathy
What is missing the most, in my opinion, are fetch lands, which would be a "B" for me. They just take so much time and most decks can do very good without them
conqueror wont trigger if the creatures enter tapped is one things, but another annoying thing i realized is if two players each have him out they have a consecrated spinx type loop going where they can give eachother infinite tokens if they both keep going
I wouldn’t mind Cathars’ Crusade if the people who play it brought enough dice and tokens, but they never do. It’s always stuff like “This die represents a number of +1/+1 counters and this other die represents the number of Soldier tokens that have that number of +1/+1 counters on them” and the dice are the same color.
Cards that kill the pacing of a game with too many small triggers -- Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe
Cards that win games without needing much work or synergy -- Teferi's Protection, Cyclonic Rift, and Inkshield
Cards that are really oppressive to creatures -- No Mercy, The Abyss, Grave Pact
Cards that halt the game -- Stasis, Winter Orb, Armageddon
Also 16:58 in what magical world are you guys killing Lord of Extinction with a Toxic Deluge?
"I don't like being held hostage in commander" is my favorite line and im stealing it 😂
On triggers like tithe and rhystic, I actually take the alternate view that it’s all players responsibility (as much as possible, of course) to remember them.