I can't say it often enough--- as I make my way through this life, I let my steps be guided by one simple rule: if you see a hole in the ground, DON'T GO INTO IT.
Not-so-fun fact: Rescuer Ryan Shurtz suffered terrible facial injuries during the attempted rescue. When that pulley system collapsed a giant carabiner came crashing down on him, busting his jaw, splitting his tongue. he had to seek immediate help for himself. Also, Ryan's dad also worked for the same rescue group and was there and I think his dad went down in the place of Ryan I would have to reread the article if I can find it
@@bobs5596Nope he doesnt get one, he had children, passing on genes makes you ineligible for the Darwin awards. So theres no contribution to human evolution.
Yes! A cave or a sinkhole. I read about a man in fl whose house fell into a sinkhole and they couldn’t find him. He could have possibly been down there for days d¥ing slowly. Terrifying stuff.
I have listened and read about this several times, even though I almost have a panic attack every time. I cannot even imagine his terror, his family's terror, and the effects on the rescuers who were there. RIP, John.
To install a ceiling fan electrical box, I wiggled my way solo through the hot attic and trusses of vaulted ceiling and got stuck. After installing the box, I began to panic when I couldn’t move back but was able to calm myself and just relax and breathe. After a spell, ever so slowly, was able to inch my back out. Very frightening experience.
@@Ken-fh4jc It certainly seems like it's only been a handful of years. Time starts _FLYING BY_ after you reach your early to mid 30s, and I reached age 30 in the late 90s.
What a horrific and senseless death. I’m glad that he wasn’t alone during his final hours. It’s the only silver lining that I would have if I was a family member of his. God bless the rescuers who cared enough to try and save him. I can’t even imagine how difficult that must have been
@@Angelfas Point is, she forgot about him as was expected, she also started dating shortly after. Literally no one remembers you after death lol except maybe your parents
@@JustMe-fo4ev Truth is harsh mate... everyone imagining his wife dealing with the pain of his loss when in reality the only thing she was dealing with was the decision on which guy to choose among hundreds of tinder options
This story is so horrifying. My claustrophobia could never. Thank you for covering this with your usually thoroughness and compassion. Happy Holidays Dr. Grande and Everyone!
I went on a field trip in kindergarten to a cave and I never forgot it because it was so terrifying and I didn’t enjoy any of it ! I was so relieved when we came up to surface and got on the bus to go home! I’ve never ever been interested in caves !!! I don’t understand how it’s thrilling it’s just dark, damp, cold and scary !
Some of us have higher sensory experience-seeking personalities than others. It's the same with how some folks like to travel, and others like to try new varieties of cuisine. People just enjoy different things. It also makes other life concerns very easy to handle in comparison, in my experience. It actually considerably reduces my personal anxiety. Sometimes a little inherent risk is worth it, and mistakes like this are few and far between for experienced individuals. He was not experienced.
@Nylak-Otter. You just described junkies. People who risk their lives & the lives of others for an adrenaline rush are no different than street junkies who are hooked on coke, meth or other street drugs.
@@learobinson4450 If you need to see it that way, except drugs are harmful by design and ALWAYS hurt you. Fortunately, I don't risk the lives of others, since I actually work SAR. I don't mind taking on the dangerous assignments, because I find it a challenge. I have a DNR and do not retrieve order in place for my remains in case I go missing myself.
2 points 1) I'm surprised Dr Grande didn't mention how when John Edward Jones was a child, he participated in training drills where he would be stuck in a cave, and cave rescuers would practice their techniques on rescuing him. In fact, his climbing in the Nutty Putty cave was the first time he had climbed since he had last been in a cave acting as a rescue victim as a child. This clouded his vision--when he last caved he had a child's body, but now he had a large adults body, his mind thought he could climb in areas that he could have as a child, not realizing that he was grown and could no longer climb those areas. And also, he had so much experience being rescued, that he just expected he could climb wherever and get rescued like when he was a child. This is why psychologically he made terrible decisions in the Nutty Putty cave. 2) Yes, while the Nutty Putty Cave was considered a beginner and training cave, that was only for certain areas of it. Before John Edward Jones died in the cave, there had been many close calls, which as Dr Grande mentioned, led to the cave being shut down for some time, and only being recently reopened when John Edward Jones made his ill-fated climb into it. The cave had long been criticized for not being well-marked, making it very easy for inexperience climbers to get into the dangerous sections (as John Edward Jones did) instead of staying in the well-mapped areas. It is inexplicable why after so many near misses, signs weren't installed in areas of the cave making it clear which parts were dangerous and unmapped. But for whatever reason, they weren't. John Edward Jones is responsible for his own death, but he isn't responsible for the closing of the Nutty Putty Cave--that responsibility lies on Utah State and their failure to put up relatively cheap signs marking the dangerous parts of the cave, even after repeated incidents that barely escaped death.
thelogicaldanger, you have added some details I have not read anywhere else. Thanks for your info, it makes the tragedy more understandable as to his possible mindset. I am 72 now, and there is a local cave (East Tn) we would crawl in 1965. Then again in the 1970s. My friend and I both shudder at the thought of the passages we crawled. If we had gotten stuck, no way could rescue even happen, it scares me to even think about it. But, at the time, it was just adventure.
I am not a caver and was not familiar with this incident, but your comment made me curious...what was the most famous caving death ever? And how is brain damage and amnesia relevant, or irrelevant as you imply? @@throbbinwoodofcoxley6830
I dont know that we have that much insight into what affect his amnesia had. There is no clear indication that his amnesia resulted in John coming to realize that he was in the situation he was in over and over. I do realize rescuers reported that he went between being calm and panicking, so perhaps that is what led you to think this?
@@throbbinwoodofcoxley6830 it was mentioned at the end of the video that John was suffering from amnesia and possible brain damage by both the angle in which he was facing (essentially upside down) as well as hitting his head while he descended into the cave.
SAME- I went caving as a college student. You had to crawl about 40 feet and it opened into a huge “room”- I had a panic attack and had to crawl out -I hit my head on the way out because I kept trying to stand up. After 13 stitches -NEVER again
@@deelee4639I couldn't watch this at all, only remembering this case gave me a panic attack, I have physically touch around and move that I know I'm not stuck there. Holy fucking shit. I would only go into a cave if I could have a cyanide capsule in my mouth at all times that I could kill myself at any point if I got stuck. That would be the only thing relieving the panic. Not even joking. If I knew I was stuck like that I couldn't wait for help, I would lose it so bad o fuck the panic hits again...... Wow. Took me half an hour to write this holy shit.. Oh, and I didn't even remember the reason why I came to comment. It was the fact that he has the same fucking initials in his name as me!!! J.E.J. John Edward Jones, Jonne Eemil Jaakola
Dr. Grande rarely takes sick leave or vacations, and it seems like he is always working without any leisure time. He truly deserves a break. Let's show our support for Dr. Grande by liking, commenting, donating, and subscribing. This will help him continue doing what he loves. Thank you, Dr. Grande, for all that you do. We appreciate the laughter, the knowledge, and your unwavering dedication.
This case always gives me chills . So much effort was put into trying to save him and it just couldnt be done . I recall they called an ER / Trauma doc in to help . Since he was essentially upside down he suffocated on his own fluids . The ER doc said he could hear it in his voice ( they had some radio communication ) as his voice kept getting more nasally . Just horrifying .
@@gingerlee726 Thats a very good question ! Ive never heard that mentioned and Ive seen several reports of this case . Im an RN and I cant think of a way they would've been able to give him meds unfortunately . As I understand they only had limited access to his feet and lower legs . If they were able to somehow I really hope they did
I nearly got stuck in a cave in Mariana, FL as a kid and have been claustrophobic ever since. Can't sit in the back seat of smaller vehicles, can't fly unless I have an aisle seat, no sleeping bags, no tight clothing. Even listening to this makes me a little panicky.
Lmao 🤣, I've been in 3 serious motorcycle accidents and literally had to be rescued while drowning in the ocean. I had guns pulled in me two times, and shot at once. Heard the bullets whizzing past me. Every one of those incidents was horrifying. Especially the drowning one because I had a good 60 seconds to realize that nobody sees what's happening to me and that you're actually unable to yell for help. None of that had changed me in such a way that I'm scared to do something. I'm just more careful. So for that changing your life in such a way makes you a weak man...
Classic example of the maxim that when you’re in a hole, stop digging. Tragic end, and due sympathies to his family and friends; but his unwise choices brought him there and put other lives at risk.
When i lived near Nutty Putty i always declined to go. At the time, it was pre-internet and there wasn't accessible information about who owned/maintained the area, maps, etc. I happened to be in the area again during this Thanksgiving and it was awful--everyone with their TVs on hoping he would be saved like Baby Jessica.....and then he wasn't. And it was horrible for him. What heartache for those who lost him and the rescuers who tried so hard. Just awful.
Freaky. I almost drowned once...That was exciting. Interesting thing about drowning you don't scream like in the movies, in fact you don't make a sound. Pure horror.
There was a fascinating article on this that I read years back that contained interviews and testimonials from the rescue workers. It really put the horror and hopelessness of the situation into perspective. You can't help but feel for the people who were there. Unfortunately the article cut off right in the middle of one of the rescue worker's recounting of the story, and I could never find the full article anywhere.
Why? It’s Darwinism in a nutshell. He went in a dangerous cave when he hadn’t been spelunking in years, and had gained a bunch of mass in the meantime.
I feel really bad for his family that he left behind yes, he literally just had a kid too. Then he goes and does somthing this reckless. So heres advice for new parents, don't crawl into tight caves 700ft underground ok?
Perhaps you are unaware of how many previous emergency call outs had happened at that location, even before John died. Or that safety improvements had very recently been made, but this tragedy still occurred. The family and the trust that owns the land are okay with the public visiting the land and memorial to John / the rescuers that worked so hard to save him that day, but the cave is tomb now. They don't want people risking their lives to have morbid tourism moments down there... and I don't blame them.
Unfortunately keeping the cave open after this death would prove impractical. In today's world, the next person to get hurt could file a lawsuit saying that the controlling body(ies) knew the cave was unsafe. And they would likely win a bunch of money. I agree with the sentiment that the cave should have stayed open and explorers assume the risks, but that is simply not practical until our legal system changes.
This story has been following me lately! I originally watched a video about it a couple years ago and lately I’ve seen so many videos about it pop up on YT. I watched a fatal breakdown video about it that made me nauseous from how detailed it was. It’s so horrifying to think he crawled into his own grave. I love your videos Dr Grande and can’t wait to watch this one!
Same. I literally started having panic attacks after listening to this story for the first time 2 weeks ago and since then, I have stumbled upon this story 4 times.
Wow. 2 or 3 days back I was thinking in my head about how out of everything you’ve covered since I started following you a few years back, you had never covered this specific case. And then this morning I see this notification… what a crazy coincidence. Thanks for the upload, as always!
Happens to me all the time. I'll think or dream about something, and two or three days later, the event happens, or will come up in conversation. Probably happens three or four times a year. No explanation for it. The latest example was, thinking about the Tylenol murders from Chicago in 1982. Hadn't thought about that case, for at least twenty years. Two days later, I read in the news, the main suspect in the case died. He was never convicted, or even arrested. Not enough evidence.
Dr Grande, I have watched at least a dozen videos on this tragic story. You are the first one to describe in epic detail the nuances of how absolutely panic inducing that experience must have been for John. I could actually imagine for the first time. Horrific accident. Well done on your script. May John rest in peace.
This is one of the very reasons I will never go venturing into caves, above or below the water. Call me boring and un- adventurous if you must, but there are plenty of ways to die just standing up right on land.
Excellent analysis. I agree with all of your points. The horror of his death is matched by the incredibly bad choices he made. To know that your situation is desperate and then to descend into an even narrower vertical hole in the bottom of the passage way was a spectacular decision. His inability to admit he made a mistake and needed help killed him. It also had significant detrimental effects on everyone involved in trying to save him and everyone who cared for him.
This is truly horrific and I feel very badly for John. I think they closed the cave because of the danger not just to cavers but to any rescuers if something bad happened again. Plus they probably wanted to keep ghoulish curiosity seekers away from a grave site.
I've listened to a story of two foolish cave divers who become disoriented and died. One of the extremely experienced divers who went in to recover their bodies also died.
@wolfe6220 And that's another thing. You go and get yourself into trouble then someone else has to risk their own lives to get you out. And, in this case someone died trying to drag his carcass out from an UNDERWATER cave. A regular dangerous land cave wasnt good enough. He had to add an extra element of danger by going underwater. People do the absolute stupidest things.
@@JamesStreet-tp1vb Not really sure if you know this or not, but the rescuers are not forced to go in. Very often rescuers in this case are volunteers. They know or certainly ought to know of the risks before they enter. They are brave, for sure, but the victim is not to blame if their rescuers perish.
I’m assuming his son is about 14 and daughter a couple years older now. I was squirming just listening to this. Can’t imagine the trauma of those 36 hours. Can’t imagine how his brother Josh feels. I’m astonished at his wife’s strength to move on. The closure of going on a family vacation and not even returning with a body or ashes, I can’t imagine what the funeral was like. This is so sad and unfortunate because it was just made progressively worse by bad decision after bad decision.
FYI, John's dad, his wife's FIL, gave her away at her second wedding. I am glad for the sake of the children, that his family and his wife were able to remain close.
@@thelogicaldangerthanks for sharing that. That's really sweet. I wonder if it was partly the family's decision to not have his body recovered so as to not risk more lives. If anyone knows, please share!
When I first heard this story, I was instantly angry with Mr. Jones. I am of the opinion that if you are a married person with a family, then you do not have the right to engage in reckless, risky behavior that could get you killed. You owe it to your family to try to stay alive and be there for them. It pains me to think about how his wife must have suffered and I see him as responsible for that.
@@CatholicZola except this cave was not supposed to be high risk. People die in road traffic accidents all the time, so do young fathers and mothers have a duty to avoid all vehicular trips if at all possible?
@@darthkek1953 I think the risks and rewards should be weighed. Driving on roadways can be viewed as much more necessary and having greater rewards (getting to work, school, etc) than cave diving, no matter how "safe" the cave or the dive.
@@CatholicZola that's why I chose to say unnecessary trips not all trips. It would mean no leisure travel, only essential travel. If you're minimising risk you should minimise by far and away the greatest risk to your family - that of an intoxicated car driver smashing into you at high speed.
@@darthkek1953 This comparison is ridiculously off. The real analogy is in HOW you choose to go about life. Because the problem was only that he was cramming himself into tight holes the entire time in an effort to thrill seek, NOT that he was doing it in the first place. Same with driving, the problem isn't making unnecessary trips, it's in what you do when you are driving. The equivalent would be swerving in and out of lanes without turn signals at higher than normal speeds. Also you literally did say "all vehicular trips if at all possible?" Maybe read your own comments.
Hey Dr. G, you did an excellent job describing the experience of caving. This is a sport that should never be underestimated for its level of danger. It’s good to share with others so they can be mindful of such an undertaking.❤
I agree with you up to a point. But I think that the fact that they left him in the cave has a GREAT deal with closing it permanently. How can you have a tour of a cave with the remains of a dead body inside?
You do that in Everest all the time. Everest has multiple dead bodies. You'd just have to close the cave until the body is decomposed sufficiently. It's a question of if you find it disrespectful or not.
There are many caves with bodies in them that can't be recovered- especially diving caves. Same is true with mountain climbing. The world is full of bodies.
Just imagining being stuck like that makes me almost physically sick. Usually, I'm not claustrophobic, but this is my biggest fear. To be stuck somewhere, unable to move, not even as much as to end my own life. I can't even imagine the panic and horror. And I don't want to.
Son of a friend went caving with friends. All got out when he noticed he lost his cell phone in cave. Against friends advice, he started back down and fell on his head. He is permanently disabled, living with his parents at age 53. Rash decisions can cause catastrophe.
This was on the extreme opposite end of the scale from a perfect decision. Don’t even TRY to minimize this. The man was a FOOL. Once you have a spouse and a child, it’s time to put the risky hobbies into memory.
There is a large range between perfect decision-making and sheer foolishness with zero risk management. No one deserves this suffering and it was a horrible incident, but it could have easily been avoided.
This story touched me in so many ways. I can’t imagine the pain that he felt when he was upside down for such a long time. Just another example to not mess with Mother Nature. She can be a bitch! Great Analysis Dr Grande!
I'm sorry, whilst I sympathise that it is a very unfortunate and sad incident, I think John is not only very silly, but he seems selfish to an extent - especially knowing you have a child on the way( his son).
His brain wasn't fully developed and he was being kind of cocky, thinking he knew best just bc he had been in caves before. You couldn't pay me enough to get in such a small tunnel in a cave 🙃
There are often lessons that can be drawn from tragedies. I think that parents of young children might be wise to consider putting their "thrill seeking" hobbies on the back burner temporarily while their primary role is raising their children to independence. After their children are grown and independent, then resume caving, sky diving, deep water exploration or wrestling crocodiles.
Hi Dr Grande I remember reading about this case also see the movie "The Last Descent". To say it is beyond horrific is totally an understatement, especially he eventually died there, where the cave is now sealed. I don't have claustrophobia but just reading about this case that feeling kind of lingers as I read about it. Thank you so much for giving the case analysis about this. Also I would like to recommend to do a case on Lou Pearlman , because I felt everyone deserves to know the case, in which at least for me reminds me of be careful of someone who to trust. I would like to know your take on that analysis. Thank you
Dr. Grande is my favorite! The soothing voice is so relaxing, without being awkward ASMR. But the dry wit and story telling are engaging enough that I pay attention and am distracted from my anxiety. Best channel to wind down with at the end of the day.
It doesn't matter how many times I hear this story wherever I am I feel claustrophobic and trapped. Im lying in bed right now and I feel like walls are closing in on me.
Same! Every time I hear this story, no matter who tells the story it provokes anxiety, claustrophobia and insomnia for several days 😢. It is strange that when hearing similar stories it does not have the same affect. RIP to this poor young man who suffered this horrible death 😢
I saw a program about this case. Love your analysis on it Dr Grande, tragic for all concerned. How decisions we make can alter everything for the worst and devastate lives. Truly tragic.
I had never seen true darkness until I went spurlunking for my geology college class. The cave was in Flagstafff AZ ...and I will never go again!!!! It was soooo scary!
I will never understand caving as a hobby. What's so enticing about spending very long periods of time inside of dark, damped, hot, incredibly tight and dangerous places?
I think mental illness has a lot to do with these risk takers who do stupid dangerous things like caving, rock climbing, etc. Not a popular opinion but oh well.
@@sme91158 Well, if you need to do incredibly dangerous things and put your life at risk constantly just to feel at peace with yourself, I think that might be a good argument.
From my perspective, somebody almost twice as old as this poor boy, reckless behaviour among young men is just appalling. "John and two other friends decided to break off from the group and search for more adventure." / "Instead of the Birth Canal, John ventured into an unmapped passageway that was extremely tight. This move was inexplicable. It's not clear what motivated John to do this." / "In yet another inexplicable move, John decided to climb head first down into the crevice. He immediately became stuck."
@@Heidi_137 I've read a comment suggesting that he must have thought it actually WAS the Birth Canal and that's why he tried to get through it at all costs believing he could make it. It's the only possible explanation for his irrational behaviour.
This story has haunted me for years. I literally have had recurring nightmares of entrapment like this since childhood. God bless his soul and his family.
Would also love to see you cover the Gollum Cave incident. Four teens and young adults drowned, with the first corpse trapping the other three still alive. The Cave is now closed off.
That's also a frightening story. Four young adults get trapped, then drown in water inside the cave. The Gollum Cave is about 25 miles, as the crow flies, from Nutty Putty.
R.I.P John. It's almost as if he was in a child-like state when he saw that narrow entrance; all those childhood adventures in the cave came back to him and he ventured forward with unhindered youthful exuberance. In that child-like state he forgot he was no longer a child but a grown man - too big for that tiny space. One mistake can cost you your life. Doesn't define his life to me, though. Sounds likes he was a great family man.
This is the one story I struggle to get through after watching a breakdown of the whole incident on another channel. It's so tragic and you can't help but feel overwhelming empathy for this guy. Just the description of the vents is enough to make me feel it.
This guy had a great life and I just feel like he squandered that by choosing to go in that cave. There had been so many complaints about the safety of that cave for a long time before he died, the community of cave spelunkers were being stubborn though. Several times people nearly got stuck and his death was what made them finally permanently seal it off. Just a terrible case of hubris humbling people yet again
Oh no. From the title I am pretty sure I know which case this is. I saw another video about it and it’s the only video I can ever remember not being able to finish. It often crosses my mind and I get chills, like now. This might be the only video of yours I don’t watch, Dr. Grande.
I’ve watched a lot of videos about this case and this is one of the best (aside from ones from experienced cavers providing technical knowledge). The insight into his consciousness and each and every decision is valuable.
This was the first Dr Grande video that I had to bail out of as soon as he started describing that narrow crevice. I've never had a panic attack in my 75 years or throughout my career as a physician, but this description brought me close enough that I made the wise move to abort the rest of the narrative! Sheesh!
Ok so it's not just me that's noticed a random uptick in this incident lately. Two other channels I follow covered the Nutty Putty cave incident this month, but I've seen at least one video on this every year since 2018ish. Surprised it showed up on this channel too
@@ufolandingsIt definitely comes and goes in waves as far as coverage. I imagine one person happens across the case and covers it, and then others pick up on it and cover it themselves until it phases out again.
I've explored hydrothermal caves. An interesting feature of the cave is that the clay covered walls tend to absorb sound, so it's difficult to hear anyone once they have turned a corner or two. This has it's obvious dangers. Having said that, don't go cave exploring unless you are competent and know your limitations. Experience does not automatically translate into competence.
You have to qualify that though. All the choices he made came from the same bad premise - that he was in the birth canal part of the cave. He never knew he’d taken a wrong turn very early on (despite mapping the trip himself before he went under) and found himself in an unmapped passageway near ‘Ed’s reach’. He thought he was about to reach a wider opening at the bottom of the birth canal and the tiny narrow crevice that he came across turned out to be a kind of mirage for him. Bad decisions yes, but not exactly several errors of judgement. The fatal mistake was made at the very start.
This case was horrific, but i couldn't help but bust out laughing at the thought of a few town folks gathering with pitforks and torches to get mad at a cave
Wow this story reminds me of the Sand Cave disaster in Mammoth Caves Nat'l Park, KY and how Floyd Collins was entombed after ridiculous and endless misfortune would strike rescue efforts at every turn.
This is absolutely insane. This has been one of my worst fears as long as I can remember. For someone to be so careless and negligent with their own life is so ridiculous.
Bad decision or not, we all think we're invincible when young, is sad some of us don't get a chance to live & learn. Too damn young, poor decision or not. My condolences to his loved ones.
two corrections: 1. 4:18 it is clear and explicable why john went that way...he thought he was going into the birth canal. he just took the wrong turn, and he didn't realize he took the wrong turn. 2. the reason he kept "pushing forward" was because he thought it was the birth canal the whole time, which opens up at the end. because he knew the birth canal opens up, he pushed through adamantly, not realizing he wasn't in the birth canal at all
@KwonJasperet it was explained logically already by John. He didn’t know exactly where he was going, thought he was in the birth canal where it would open up. It’s that simple. It’s what he said and it logically makes sense too. There’s no evidence to the contrary, even if there are other possible scenarios that could’ve happened. Everything else is just made up stuff to make the story more intriguing
He seen a fork which he thought was the birth canal why if there is two whole to slide through why not think twice before continuing ahead it's his fault for thinking that was the right way he should of confirmed with his brother Josh is this the right way before trying to be the next best thing ! Ppl get to ahead of themselves thinking nothing could go wrong and everything got worse the more an more he kept going ! This is a sad situation to be in but at the same time he's the one to blame because he knew what he was doing nobody told him to go down there he wanted to and the fact they make a group of people have to sign a waiver plus only one group at a time go down into the nutty putty cave should tell you right there your at your own risk 😩 R.I.P John and prayers going to his family and friends ❤
A friend of mine recently died after becoming lost while hiking alone. She has recently ended a toxic marriage and I believe she was on a search of answers and peace. Thank you Dr Grande for continuing to make these videos of every day people who lose their lives to occurrences that may seem benign at first. Life is so so precious, and fragile. We should all be aware of the dangers of certain activities and people. ❤
People can be so strange. A cave is a geological formation that exists on a different timeline than humans. Most are formed over millions of years by tectonic shift, volcanic activity, water movement and glacial metamorphosis. Humans rarely live beyond 100 years and have free-will and are able to use judgement and reason, most of the time. John was a medical student, who was building his family. He had a lot to lose, but he went ahead and made what I think is a completely illogical chain of decisions to get himself hopelessly stuck. Blaming the cave is ridiculous. He used extremely poor critical thinking skills. I've been caving before and I got stranded in a cave in the 1980s when my flashlight suddenly died. It was late at night and I had paddled out in an inflatable raft to an island in the lake where I had found the cave. One person was with me, but he decided to stay out of the cave until I got back out. When my light died, I kept my cool and began to feel my way further ahead to a sinkhole I knew about deeper in the cave. The way back would have required me to wade through a cavern full of water, which seemed more dangerous. It took a long time of crawling, but I eventually hit a wall and looked straight up, where I could see a very small patch of stars directly above me, hovering in the pitch blackness. I carefully climbed the wall of rock in the vertical portion of the cave, up to of the sinkhole, where I finally clambered out to the forest floor. My friend was relieved to see me. I never went caving again after that.
I once climbed into a life-size reproduction of the Mercury capsule used by early astronauts. It was made of plastic, and was in a museum where people were allowed to climb into it to get an idea what it was like. But truth be told, I'm too large to be a Mercury astronaut. Once I got in and had my fill of the experience I realized it was going to be very difficult to get out. Of course, this was in a museum and I could have asked for help. It wasn't too busy that day, there weren't too many people around, but if I had yelled somebody would have come. I very quickly became panicked and had to expend some effort to regain my composure. After calming myself, I was able to climb out in a very awkward and ungainly fashion. I certainly learned a lesson about crawling into small places, and that was in a place where there wasn't any real danger. I think it gave me some tiny insight, in a very small way, how horrible it would be to be stuck in a cave, 100 ft underground. The thought chills me.
I would rather be ripped apart by sharks or a bear than die in a cave. My dad convinced me to scuba dive in a cave system , super deep . No thanks, never again. There's an even worse story of another cave disaster in Utah where these kids jump in a hole with water and swim to other side ! Like who does that ?! They all died and drowned 😢.
I saw that story , they didn't realise that the hole they swam to would get a build up of carbon monoxide from their breath , by the time they realised there wasn't a lot of air to take a deep breath to get back. I think one of them went past the exit and couldnt find it , I think one of them died in the passageway making it impossible for the rest to get past which meany they died in there as well
I can't say it often enough--- as I make my way through this life, I let my steps be guided by one simple rule: if you see a hole in the ground, DON'T GO INTO IT.
Depends on the subway. Mines are definitely out.
facts. i'm studying to be a marine biologist, and my golden rules are: no deep ocean, no underwater caves, and no land caves.
Unless there's some treasure down there I see no worthwhile purpose of venturing into an unexplored cave. You know what's down there? More cave.
And even if money were in the cave I would let it stay there, hands down! Let someone else go get it.
Mine is similar: Avoid all horror movie scenarios.
Not-so-fun fact: Rescuer Ryan Shurtz suffered terrible facial injuries during the attempted rescue. When that pulley system collapsed a giant carabiner came crashing down on him, busting his jaw, splitting his tongue. he had to seek immediate help for himself. Also, Ryan's dad also worked for the same rescue group and was there and I think his dad went down in the place of Ryan I would have to reread the article if I can find it
The thought of this just makes me physically sick. What a horrific way to die. RIP young man 😞
just another darwin award.
Yes. What more can we say???
@@bobs5596Nope he doesnt get one, he had children, passing on genes makes you ineligible for the Darwin awards.
So theres no contribution to human evolution.
He FAFO.
FAFO????@@neglectfulsausage7689
When you hear the phrase "broke away from the group", that is always the beginning of problems.
Or…there was a cave…
@@oggiedog157haha, underrated comment! My thinking too!
R
Exactly.
It is even used in horror movies to create extra fear and excitement.
being stuck in a cave is my absolute worst nightmare
Dont worry, the caves cant get you, you have to be a special kind of stupid to go inside that deep.
My suggestion is to avoid going into caves. Lol. Kidding. Sorry you have that nightmare.
What about a cave under the sea?
I feel you. Is up there for me. Having this as an hobby is beyond my comprehension 😅
Yes! A cave or a sinkhole.
I read about a man in fl whose house fell into a sinkhole and they couldn’t find him. He could have possibly been down there for days d¥ing slowly. Terrifying stuff.
I have listened and read about this several times, even though I almost have a panic attack every time. I cannot even imagine his terror, his family's terror, and the effects on the rescuers who were there. RIP, John.
For real! I was trembling watching the footage on other vids!
What a horrible story. Why do people do this to themselves? Listening to this just gave me so much anxiety.
This
They compete for the Darwin Awards.
It's a thrill to do things that are really dangerous, it's not often your life is at risk.
I thought the same thing, why am I listening to something so horrible.
Yeah, I wish I have never watched this guy's story...
To install a ceiling fan electrical box, I wiggled my way solo through the hot attic and trusses of vaulted ceiling and got stuck.
After installing the box, I began to panic when I couldn’t move
back but was able to calm myself and just relax and breathe. After a spell, ever so slowly, was able to inch my back out. Very frightening experience.
They call those "confined spaces" and there are lots of OSHA regulations about them
Now imagine thousands of tons of immovable earth and stone around you.
I panic when taking off a turtleneck sweater. I can’t stand close quarters and have nightmares about it.
When you said "late 20th century," I felt personally attacked. 😅
That was just a few years ago right. 🥴
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Me too. John was only 7 months older than me. He'd be 41 now.
Yeah , sounded like it was 150 years ago ! . . . 😅
@@Ken-fh4jc
It certainly seems like it's only been a handful of years. Time starts _FLYING BY_ after you reach your early to mid 30s, and I reached age 30 in the late 90s.
What a horrific and senseless death. I’m glad that he wasn’t alone during his final hours. It’s the only silver lining that I would have if I was a family member of his. God bless the rescuers who cared enough to try and save him. I can’t even imagine how difficult that must have been
Nah her family is fine... his wife remarried shortly after and has probably even forgotten about him lmao
@@kartikeyatiwari2502no Sir. Five years isn’t shortly
@@Angelfas Point is, she forgot about him as was expected, she also started dating shortly after. Literally no one remembers you after death lol except maybe your parents
@@kartikeyatiwari2502 your crushing depression must be wild to deal with
@@JustMe-fo4ev Truth is harsh mate... everyone imagining his wife dealing with the pain of his loss when in reality the only thing she was dealing with was the decision on which guy to choose among hundreds of tinder options
This story is so horrifying. My claustrophobia could never. Thank you for covering this with your usually thoroughness and compassion. Happy Holidays Dr. Grande and Everyone!
I had to skip some parts for the same reason.
No kidding,, I wouldn't go into a cave for a million dollars... Happy holidays 💯...
@@susanc4622me too ! Eek 😖
@@karenmoreno433 me three
Nor Would I.
I went on a field trip in kindergarten to a cave and I never forgot it because it was so terrifying and I didn’t enjoy any of it ! I was so relieved when we came up to surface and got on the bus to go home! I’ve never ever been interested in caves !!! I don’t understand how it’s thrilling it’s just dark, damp, cold and scary !
that's absolutely outrageous they should never have taken you there
@@peanut1001x it was the 90s 😂
@jacquelinekemp4074 🤣 awful teachers doing something fun with kids that one student didn’t enjoy!
@@peanut1001xMy 7th grade class was forced to walk two miles into a town on a hot day two times.
It was ridiculous looking back LOL
Life is not easy to begin with, let alone looking for danger/thrill seeking.
Some of us have higher sensory experience-seeking personalities than others. It's the same with how some folks like to travel, and others like to try new varieties of cuisine. People just enjoy different things.
It also makes other life concerns very easy to handle in comparison, in my experience. It actually considerably reduces my personal anxiety.
Sometimes a little inherent risk is worth it, and mistakes like this are few and far between for experienced individuals. He was not experienced.
@Nylak-Otter. You just described junkies. People who risk their lives & the lives of others for an adrenaline rush are no different than street junkies who are hooked on coke, meth or other street drugs.
@@learobinson4450 If you need to see it that way, except drugs are harmful by design and ALWAYS hurt you. Fortunately, I don't risk the lives of others, since I actually work SAR. I don't mind taking on the dangerous assignments, because I find it a challenge. I have a DNR and do not retrieve order in place for my remains in case I go missing myself.
@@learobinson4450 Anyone who comes into contact with "coke, meth, or other street drugs" can become a "junkie", including you. People are people.
@@learobinson4450 One MAJOR difference: spelunkers don't run the risk of hurting anyone but themselves. Junkies hurt everyone around them.
2 points 1) I'm surprised Dr Grande didn't mention how when John Edward Jones was a child, he participated in training drills where he would be stuck in a cave, and cave rescuers would practice their techniques on rescuing him. In fact, his climbing in the Nutty Putty cave was the first time he had climbed since he had last been in a cave acting as a rescue victim as a child. This clouded his vision--when he last caved he had a child's body, but now he had a large adults body, his mind thought he could climb in areas that he could have as a child, not realizing that he was grown and could no longer climb those areas. And also, he had so much experience being rescued, that he just expected he could climb wherever and get rescued like when he was a child. This is why psychologically he made terrible decisions in the Nutty Putty cave. 2) Yes, while the Nutty Putty Cave was considered a beginner and training cave, that was only for certain areas of it. Before John Edward Jones died in the cave, there had been many close calls, which as Dr Grande mentioned, led to the cave being shut down for some time, and only being recently reopened when John Edward Jones made his ill-fated climb into it. The cave had long been criticized for not being well-marked, making it very easy for inexperience climbers to get into the dangerous sections (as John Edward Jones did) instead of staying in the well-mapped areas. It is inexplicable why after so many near misses, signs weren't installed in areas of the cave making it clear which parts were dangerous and unmapped. But for whatever reason, they weren't. John Edward Jones is responsible for his own death, but he isn't responsible for the closing of the Nutty Putty Cave--that responsibility lies on Utah State and their failure to put up relatively cheap signs marking the dangerous parts of the cave, even after repeated incidents that barely escaped death.
thelogicaldanger, you have added some details I have not read anywhere else. Thanks for your info, it makes the tragedy more understandable as to his possible mindset. I am 72 now, and there is a local cave (East Tn) we would crawl in 1965. Then again in the 1970s. My friend and I both shudder at the thought of the passages we crawled. If we had gotten stuck, no way could rescue even happen, it scares me to even think about it. But, at the time, it was just adventure.
Please use paragraphs although this is only YT.
Still a reckless, suicidal hobby for someone with obligations to his wife and children.
well said
They play stupid game and won the prices. It’s nobody fault but themselves
The fact that the brain damage and amnesia made him realize over and over again that he was in this situation and panic is truely horrific.
Like the death zone when climbing Everest.
Brain damage and amnesia. What the hell are you on about? Tell us you’re not familiar with the most famous caving death ever.
I am not a caver and was not familiar with this incident, but your comment made me curious...what was the most famous caving death ever? And how is brain damage and amnesia relevant, or irrelevant as you imply? @@throbbinwoodofcoxley6830
I dont know that we have that much insight into what affect his amnesia had. There is no clear indication that his amnesia resulted in John coming to realize that he was in the situation he was in over and over. I do realize rescuers reported that he went between being calm and panicking, so perhaps that is what led you to think this?
@@throbbinwoodofcoxley6830 it was mentioned at the end of the video that John was suffering from amnesia and possible brain damage by both the angle in which he was facing (essentially upside down) as well as hitting his head while he descended into the cave.
When I first heard this story a few years ago, I felt anxiety like I never felt before. It has put me off cave exploring for life.
SAME- I went caving as a college student. You had to crawl about 40 feet and it opened into a huge “room”- I had a panic attack and had to crawl out -I hit my head on the way out because I kept trying to stand up. After 13 stitches -NEVER again
@TracvM320 that's exactly how I picture myself reacting. There's just no way.
Small spaces and heights. No thank you. Nope. Exactly 💯
@@finalgirl640 🥲😪 I understand
This is one of the scariest cases I’ve ever heard.
I skipped past the part where he should have asked for help thr first time to DR grandes analysis . Im still freaking out
@@deelee4639I couldn't watch this at all, only remembering this case gave me a panic attack, I have physically touch around and move that I know I'm not stuck there. Holy fucking shit. I would only go into a cave if I could have a cyanide capsule in my mouth at all times that I could kill myself at any point if I got stuck. That would be the only thing relieving the panic. Not even joking. If I knew I was stuck like that I couldn't wait for help, I would lose it so bad o fuck the panic hits again......
Wow. Took me half an hour to write this holy shit..
Oh, and I didn't even remember the reason why I came to comment. It was the fact that he has the same fucking initials in his name as me!!! J.E.J. John Edward Jones, Jonne Eemil Jaakola
Did you see the recent one where 4 guys got sucked into a pipe
Now you know why a baby elephant waits so long to be born !
@@deelee4639 I, too, was very uncomfortable listening to this, in a way I have not been uncomfortable before. I had to stop for awhile.
Dr. Grande rarely takes sick leave or vacations, and it seems like he is always working without any leisure time. He truly deserves a break.
Let's show our support for Dr. Grande by liking, commenting, donating, and subscribing. This will help him continue doing what he loves.
Thank you, Dr. Grande, for all that you do. We appreciate the laughter, the knowledge, and your unwavering dedication.
Absolutely! His videos have helped me a lot. Thank you!
A real man works 365 days a year
He probably works ahead and then can publish those videos even while he’s on a break or vacation.
It sounds like you really enjoy the taste of Todd Grandes boots.
@@45pints87lol a slave does
This case always gives me chills . So much effort was put into trying to save him and it just couldnt be done . I recall they called an ER / Trauma doc in to help . Since he was essentially upside down he suffocated on his own fluids . The ER doc said he could hear it in his voice ( they had some radio communication ) as his voice kept getting more nasally . Just horrifying .
I've always wanted to know if they gave him medicine to keep him calm. Do you happen to know?
@@gingerlee726Doubtful.
@@gingerlee726 Thats a very good question ! Ive never heard that mentioned and Ive seen several reports of this case . Im an RN and I cant think of a way they would've been able to give him meds unfortunately . As I understand they only had limited access to his feet and lower legs . If they were able to somehow I really hope they did
Dear Lord this is absolutely sickening
@@gingerlee726 On another video they said when they first got to him, they were able to get a tube down to him to give him fluids but that was it.
I nearly got stuck in a cave in Mariana, FL as a kid and have been claustrophobic ever since. Can't sit in the back seat of smaller vehicles, can't fly unless I have an aisle seat, no sleeping bags, no tight clothing. Even listening to this makes me a little panicky.
Oh no, that sounds horrible. I am so sorry
Lmao 🤣, I've been in 3 serious motorcycle accidents and literally had to be rescued while drowning in the ocean. I had guns pulled in me two times, and shot at once. Heard the bullets whizzing past me. Every one of those incidents was horrifying. Especially the drowning one because I had a good 60 seconds to realize that nobody sees what's happening to me and that you're actually unable to yell for help.
None of that had changed me in such a way that I'm scared to do something. I'm just more careful.
So for that changing your life in such a way makes you a weak man...
@@jeremybly Fake 😂
Classic example of the maxim that when you’re in a hole, stop digging. Tragic end, and due sympathies to his family and friends; but his unwise choices brought him there and put other lives at risk.
When i lived near Nutty Putty i always declined to go. At the time, it was pre-internet and there wasn't accessible information about who owned/maintained the area, maps, etc. I happened to be in the area again during this Thanksgiving and it was awful--everyone with their TVs on hoping he would be saved like Baby Jessica.....and then he wasn't. And it was horrible for him. What heartache for those who lost him and the rescuers who tried so hard. Just awful.
Baby Jessica ?
Similar thing happened to me. I got pulled out by my feet. I will never go in a tight space again. I have nightmares about it often.
😮😮😮😮 thank goodness you’re ok!
Freaky. I almost drowned once...That was exciting. Interesting thing about drowning you don't scream like in the movies, in fact you don't make a sound. Pure horror.
@@fendermonyeah no shit
@@RealReelsRightHerelmfao right? And which fucking movie has people screaming drowning???
I would have nightmares, too. I hope your nightmares will stop soon.
There was a fascinating article on this that I read years back that contained interviews and testimonials from the rescue workers. It really put the horror and hopelessness of the situation into perspective. You can't help but feel for the people who were there. Unfortunately the article cut off right in the middle of one of the rescue worker's recounting of the story, and I could never find the full article anywhere.
I mourn for this young man and his family every time I hear this story.
Why? It’s Darwinism in a nutshell. He went in a dangerous cave when he hadn’t been spelunking in years, and had gained a bunch of mass in the meantime.
Yes me too, and for the rescuers who had to hear his screams.
I feel really bad for his family that he left behind yes, he literally just had a kid too. Then he goes and does somthing this reckless.
So heres advice for new parents, don't crawl into tight caves 700ft underground ok?
He had a wife and kid. When you have that responsibility the last thing you consider is doing dangerous activities.
So very smart but zero common sense. Very sorry for his family and friends.
Perhaps you are unaware of how many previous emergency call outs had happened at that location, even before John died. Or that safety improvements had very recently been made, but this tragedy still occurred. The family and the trust that owns the land are okay with the public visiting the land and memorial to John / the rescuers that worked so hard to save him that day, but the cave is tomb now. They don't want people risking their lives to have morbid tourism moments down there... and I don't blame them.
Not everybody agrees that it is a 'beginner' experience either.
Exactly. It is sealed not because experienced cavers will go down, but because weirdos will venture down just to see the remains.
Unfortunately keeping the cave open after this death would prove impractical. In today's world, the next person to get hurt could file a lawsuit saying that the controlling body(ies) knew the cave was unsafe. And they would likely win a bunch of money.
I agree with the sentiment that the cave should have stayed open and explorers assume the risks, but that is simply not practical until our legal system changes.
And why wasn’t that passageway itself sealed ?
I thought Dr. Todd did mention the other incidents here ?
This story has been following me lately! I originally watched a video about it a couple years ago and lately I’ve seen so many videos about it pop up on YT. I watched a fatal breakdown video about it that made me nauseous from how detailed it was. It’s so horrifying to think he crawled into his own grave. I love your videos Dr Grande and can’t wait to watch this one!
Do you have a link to the fatal break down video?
Same. I literally started having panic attacks after listening to this story for the first time 2 weeks ago and since then, I have stumbled upon this story 4 times.
Why anyone would put themselves in that situation is beyond me.
The trill of being invisible
Folks always said John liked it tight.
Wow. 2 or 3 days back I was thinking in my head about how out of everything you’ve covered since I started following you a few years back, you had never covered this specific case. And then this morning I see this notification… what a crazy coincidence.
Thanks for the upload, as always!
Happens to me all the time. I'll think or dream about something, and two or three days later,
the event happens, or will come up in conversation. Probably happens three or four times a year.
No explanation for it. The latest example was, thinking about the Tylenol murders from Chicago in 1982. Hadn't thought about that case, for at least twenty years. Two days later, I read in the news,
the main suspect in the case died. He was never convicted, or even arrested. Not enough evidence.
Dr Grande, I have watched at least a dozen videos on this tragic story. You are the first one to describe in epic detail the nuances of how absolutely panic inducing that experience must have been for John. I could actually imagine for the first time. Horrific accident. Well done on your script. May John rest in peace.
This is one of the very reasons I will never go venturing into caves, above or below the water. Call me boring and un- adventurous if you must, but there are plenty of ways to die just standing up right on land.
Excellent analysis. I agree with all of your points. The horror of his death is matched by the incredibly bad choices he made. To know that your situation is desperate and then to descend into an even narrower vertical hole in the bottom of the passage way was a spectacular decision. His inability to admit he made a mistake and needed help killed him. It also had significant detrimental effects on everyone involved in trying to save him and everyone who cared for him.
This story has always given me such chills 😢
I really dig it tho
It's always fascinated me. Where is your sense of wonder, little witch?
This has been my nightmare for YEARS. What a horrific way to go. Awful.
Rip to that young man
This is truly horrific and I feel very badly for John. I think they closed the cave because of the danger not just to cavers but to any rescuers if something bad happened again. Plus they probably wanted to keep ghoulish curiosity seekers away from a grave site.
I believe they should have closed off the part of the cave that led to John's body, and left the main cave open for future exploration.
I've listened to a story of two foolish cave divers who become disoriented and died. One of the extremely experienced divers who went in to recover their bodies also died.
@wolfe6220 And that's another thing. You go and get yourself into trouble then someone else has to risk their own lives to get you out. And, in this case someone died trying to drag his carcass out from an UNDERWATER cave. A regular dangerous land cave wasnt good enough. He had to add an extra element of danger by going underwater. People do the absolute stupidest things.
@@JamesStreet-tp1vb Not really sure if you know this or not, but the rescuers are not forced to go in. Very often rescuers in this case are volunteers. They know or certainly ought to know of the risks before they enter. They are brave, for sure, but the victim is not to blame if their rescuers perish.
should sue owner & Utah
I have heard this story reported at least 20 times on 20 different channels, but the details still make me squirm every time. RIP buddy.
I’m assuming his son is about 14 and daughter a couple years older now. I was squirming just listening to this. Can’t imagine the trauma of those 36 hours. Can’t imagine how his brother Josh feels. I’m astonished at his wife’s strength to move on. The closure of going on a family vacation and not even returning with a body or ashes, I can’t imagine what the funeral was like. This is so sad and unfortunate because it was just made progressively worse by bad decision after bad decision.
FYI, John's dad, his wife's FIL, gave her away at her second wedding. I am glad for the sake of the children, that his family and his wife were able to remain close.
@@thelogicaldangerthanks for sharing that. That's really sweet.
I wonder if it was partly the family's decision to not have his body recovered so as to not risk more lives. If anyone knows, please share!
@finleys_mama5891 It wasn't possible to recover.
When I first heard this story, I was instantly angry with Mr. Jones. I am of the opinion that if you are a married person with a family, then you do not have the right to engage in reckless, risky behavior that could get you killed. You owe it to your family to try to stay alive and be there for them. It pains me to think about how his wife must have suffered and I see him as responsible for that.
I agree with your opinion. Personal responsibilities have to be taken into account before engaging in highly risky ventures.
@@CatholicZola except this cave was not supposed to be high risk. People die in road traffic accidents all the time, so do young fathers and mothers have a duty to avoid all vehicular trips if at all possible?
@@darthkek1953 I think the risks and rewards should be weighed. Driving on roadways can be viewed as much more necessary and having greater rewards (getting to work, school, etc) than cave diving, no matter how "safe" the cave or the dive.
@@CatholicZola that's why I chose to say unnecessary trips not all trips. It would mean no leisure travel, only essential travel. If you're minimising risk you should minimise by far and away the greatest risk to your family - that of an intoxicated car driver smashing into you at high speed.
@@darthkek1953 This comparison is ridiculously off. The real analogy is in HOW you choose to go about life. Because the problem was only that he was cramming himself into tight holes the entire time in an effort to thrill seek, NOT that he was doing it in the first place. Same with driving, the problem isn't making unnecessary trips, it's in what you do when you are driving. The equivalent would be swerving in and out of lanes without turn signals at higher than normal speeds. Also you literally did say "all vehicular trips if at all possible?" Maybe read your own comments.
Hey Dr. G, you did an excellent job describing the experience of caving. This is a sport that should never be underestimated for its level of danger. It’s good to share with others so they can be mindful of such an undertaking.❤
I agree with you up to a point. But I think that the fact that they left him in the cave has a GREAT deal with closing it permanently. How can you have a tour of a cave with the remains of a dead body inside?
Good point.
You do that in Everest all the time. Everest has multiple dead bodies. You'd just have to close the cave until the body is decomposed sufficiently. It's a question of if you find it disrespectful or not.
There are many caves with bodies in them that can't be recovered- especially diving caves.
Same is true with mountain climbing.
The world is full of bodies.
Just imagining being stuck like that makes me almost physically sick. Usually, I'm not claustrophobic, but this is my biggest fear. To be stuck somewhere, unable to move, not even as much as to end my own life. I can't even imagine the panic and horror. And I don't want to.
Son of a friend went caving with friends. All got out when he noticed he lost his cell phone in cave. Against friends advice, he started back down and fell on his head. He is permanently disabled, living with his parents at age 53. Rash decisions can cause catastrophe.
Horrible!!
Leaving his body there, was a memorial for him. It is also a warning for other potential cave explorers, to be careful.
This poor man and his family. None of us makes perfect decisions all the time. My heart ached just listening.
This was stupidity at its finest. Look into it, it’s not a tragedy.
I get that but going skydiving I forgetting to put a parachute on is a “mistake” too. That’s not the sort of mistake people make.
This was on the extreme opposite end of the scale from a perfect decision. Don’t even TRY to minimize this. The man was a FOOL. Once you have a spouse and a child, it’s time to put the risky hobbies into memory.
Sorry, I didn't realize I was around folks that make the best decisions all the time. I'll stop watching all together.
There is a large range between perfect decision-making and sheer foolishness with zero risk management. No one deserves this suffering and it was a horrible incident, but it could have easily been avoided.
This story always freaks me out. Its scarier than any horror story to think about being wedged into a crevice while upside down. Poor guy. RIP 🙏
This story touched me in so many ways. I can’t imagine the pain that he felt when he was upside down for such a long time. Just another example to not mess with Mother Nature. She can be a bitch! Great Analysis Dr Grande!
I don't think we can blame poor Mother Nature. I believe Dr. Grande said that the blame rested solely on him--for making poor decisions.
Its so scary to think that a fun time can turn so deadly so quickly. I feel so sorry for this man having to pass so horrifically.
I'm sorry, whilst I sympathise that it is a very unfortunate and sad incident, I think John is not only very silly, but he seems selfish to an extent - especially knowing you have a child on the way( his son).
I agree. Just arrogant.
His brain wasn't fully developed and he was being kind of cocky, thinking he knew best just bc he had been in caves before. You couldn't pay me enough to get in such a small tunnel in a cave 🙃
There are often lessons that can be drawn from tragedies. I think that parents of young children might be wise to consider putting their "thrill seeking" hobbies on the back burner temporarily while their primary role is raising their children to independence. After their children are grown and independent, then resume caving, sky diving, deep water exploration or wrestling crocodiles.
@@leahtv7778He was 26 years old what are you talking about?
Speaking of selfish, because of him, now no one else can go in there anymore
I was living in Salt Lake City when this happened. It was excruciating, I cannot imagine that poor man and his family.
Hi Dr Grande I remember reading about this case also see the movie "The Last Descent". To say it is beyond horrific is totally an understatement, especially he eventually died there, where the cave is now sealed. I don't have claustrophobia but just reading about this case that feeling kind of lingers as I read about it. Thank you so much for giving the case analysis about this.
Also I would like to recommend to do a case on Lou Pearlman , because I felt everyone deserves to know the case, in which at least for me reminds me of be careful of someone who to trust. I would like to know your take on that analysis. Thank you
Dr. Grande is my favorite! The soothing voice is so relaxing, without being awkward ASMR. But the dry wit and story telling are engaging enough that I pay attention and am distracted from my anxiety. Best channel to wind down with at the end of the day.
I blame the cave. It had a horrible attitude of indifference throughout the hole situation
Top tier comment. 😂🥁✨
Most people will cave in and agree with that analysis.
😂😂😂😂
I agree hole heartedly
You are no Dr Grande. Just kidding. Pretty good!🤠💕
It doesn't matter how many times I hear this story wherever I am I feel claustrophobic and trapped. Im lying in bed right now and I feel like walls are closing in on me.
Same! Every time I hear this story, no matter who tells the story it provokes anxiety, claustrophobia and insomnia for several days 😢. It is strange that when hearing similar stories it does not have the same affect. RIP to this poor young man who suffered this horrible death 😢
It's a survival instinct, it's not normal to be in those spaces. I too feel claustrophobic
I love your timing! I've been obsessed with this story for the past 2 weeks! Can't shake how he went out. 😩
I saw a program about this case. Love your analysis on it Dr Grande, tragic for all concerned. How decisions we make can alter everything for the worst and devastate lives. Truly tragic.
Went looking for the birth canal, to find the death canal.
Such a sad way to go. This is a very good analysis Dr. Grande. I hope you’re doing well and keep up the great work. Take care!
I had never seen true darkness until I went spurlunking for my geology college class. The cave was in Flagstafff AZ ...and I will never go again!!!! It was soooo scary!
I knew about this horrific case a few years ago. A true nightmare. Thank you for covering this!
I have heard this story before. Horrific way to spend your last day alive. May John rest in peace. Great analysis as always Dr. Grande
I will never understand caving as a hobby. What's so enticing about spending very long periods of time inside of dark, damped, hot, incredibly tight and dangerous places?
The only other thing I can think of that's as mindlessly dangerous is rock climbing.
@@Thomas-yw9eo at least with that you get some nice views.
I think mental illness has a lot to do with these risk takers who do stupid dangerous things like caving, rock climbing, etc. Not a popular opinion but oh well.
@@sme91158 Well, if you need to do incredibly dangerous things and put your life at risk constantly just to feel at peace with yourself, I think that might be a good argument.
@@Akron162 Yes
As always, thank you for these slices of intrigue, no matter how grim they might sometimes be.
I've heard many versions of this story but I feel you do it great justice....thank you!! What a sad tale of horrible decisions.
From my perspective, somebody almost twice as old as this poor boy, reckless behaviour among young men is just appalling.
"John and two other friends decided to break off from the group and search for more adventure." / "Instead of the Birth Canal, John ventured into an unmapped passageway that was extremely tight. This move was inexplicable. It's not clear what motivated John to do this." / "In yet another inexplicable move, John decided to climb head first down into the crevice. He immediately became stuck."
It's clear what motivated him. Feeling of being invincible, magical thinking... mmm, narcissism comes to mind?
@@Heidi_137 I've read a comment suggesting that he must have thought it actually WAS the Birth Canal and that's why he tried to get through it at all costs believing he could make it. It's the only possible explanation for his irrational behaviour.
@@Heidi_137He’s dead. And you’re labeling him a narcissist, based on one short video. Nice.
This analysis is very clarifying, detailed and well done, in contrast to previous amateurish press reports.
It's like you read my mind. Just last night I was wishing you would do this case. Thank you as always for your insights!
I haven’t watched yet and the comments are giving me second thoughts 🥺
This story has haunted me for years. I literally have had recurring nightmares of entrapment like this since childhood. God bless his soul and his family.
Same, I've had three panic attacks just writing comments here I didn't even watch the video since I know the case and I simply cannot do it.
Thank you for responding to my request, I'm flattered!!! ❤🙏👍
Would also love to see you cover the Gollum Cave incident. Four teens and young adults drowned, with the first corpse trapping the other three still alive. The Cave is now closed off.
That's also a frightening story. Four young adults get trapped, then drown in water inside the cave. The Gollum Cave is about 25 miles, as the crow flies, from Nutty Putty.
R.I.P John. It's almost as if he was in a child-like state when he saw that narrow entrance; all those childhood adventures in the cave came back to him and he ventured forward with unhindered youthful exuberance. In that child-like state he forgot he was no longer a child but a grown man - too big for that tiny space. One mistake can cost you your life. Doesn't define his life to me, though. Sounds likes he was a great family man.
I saw a youtube video about this a few years ago..What a nightmare!!
This is the one story I struggle to get through after watching a breakdown of the whole incident on another channel. It's so tragic and you can't help but feel overwhelming empathy for this guy. Just the description of the vents is enough to make me feel it.
This is one of the many stories that made me never want to go spelunking.
This guy had a great life and I just feel like he squandered that by choosing to go in that cave. There had been so many complaints about the safety of that cave for a long time before he died, the community of cave spelunkers were being stubborn though. Several times people nearly got stuck and his death was what made them finally permanently seal it off. Just a terrible case of hubris humbling people yet again
Oh no. From the title I am pretty sure I know which case this is. I saw another video about it and it’s the only video I can ever remember not being able to finish. It often crosses my mind and I get chills, like now. This might be the only video of yours I don’t watch, Dr. Grande.
I watched a fatal breakdown video about this case that literally made me nauseous from anxiety. It’s bone chilling!
good thing you didn't watch... I watched it on a different channel and wish I never saw or heard this story.
Even tho I’ll never go in a cave or climb a mountain, both getting stuck in a cave or falling off a mountain are fears of mine.
I’ve watched a lot of videos about this case and this is one of the best (aside from ones from experienced cavers providing technical knowledge). The insight into his consciousness and each and every decision is valuable.
His brother must of been terrified... Going in feet first to try to save John then realizing you have to leave him in the dark upside down...
*MUST HAVE
This was the first Dr Grande video that I had to bail out of as soon as he started describing that narrow crevice. I've never had a panic attack in my 75 years or throughout my career as a physician, but this description brought me close enough that I made the wise move to abort the rest of the narrative! Sheesh!
I couldve sworn Dr G had already covered Johns horrible case? Absolutely horrifying what he went through
I feel like everyone on the internet has covered him so I would have assumed Dr Grande had as well Lol
Ok so it's not just me that's noticed a random uptick in this incident lately. Two other channels I follow covered the Nutty Putty cave incident this month, but I've seen at least one video on this every year since 2018ish. Surprised it showed up on this channel too
Yeah I’ve come across this same story over the years on RUclips.
@@ufolandingsIt definitely comes and goes in waves as far as coverage. I imagine one person happens across the case and covers it, and then others pick up on it and cover it themselves until it phases out again.
4 months ago he covered the Kenny Veach cave incident, maybe that's it. I searched but didn't see another of this one come up.
I've explored hydrothermal caves. An interesting feature of the cave is that the clay covered walls tend to absorb sound, so it's difficult to hear anyone once they have turned a corner or two. This has it's obvious dangers. Having said that, don't go cave exploring unless you are competent and know your limitations. Experience does not automatically translate into competence.
Very sad outcome but it was all preventable. I feel sad for the guy, but he made some really poor choices.
You have to qualify that though. All the choices he made came from the same bad premise - that he was in the birth canal part of the cave. He never knew he’d taken a wrong turn very early on (despite mapping the trip himself before he went under) and found himself in an unmapped passageway near ‘Ed’s reach’. He thought he was about to reach a wider opening at the bottom of the birth canal and the tiny narrow crevice that he came across turned out to be a kind of mirage for him. Bad decisions yes, but not exactly several errors of judgement. The fatal mistake was made at the very start.
Best of your kind Dr. Grande much appreciated
This case was horrific, but i couldn't help but bust out laughing at the thought of a few town folks gathering with pitforks and torches to get mad at a cave
Very good opinion there at the end, Dr. Grande. Very good. Thank you for another great episode.
Wow this story reminds me of the Sand Cave disaster in Mammoth Caves Nat'l Park, KY and how Floyd Collins was entombed after ridiculous and endless misfortune would strike rescue efforts at every turn.
Thanks for sharing, looking it up now.
@@TheAshesArt it's a crazy story. Was hoping DrG would do an "incident" take on the Sand Cave disaster one day.
“Jack the Caver” tells the story in a video. Floyd’s story will stick with me as long as I live. He just wanted to help his family earn money.
Internet Historian did a really good video about Floyd's story.
Floyd's story has haunted me for years ! Cant imagine the shear terror of being trapped like that !
This is absolutely insane. This has been one of my worst fears as long as I can remember. For someone to be so careless and negligent with their own life is so ridiculous.
Bad decision or not, we all think we're invincible when young, is sad some of us don't get a chance to live & learn. Too damn young, poor decision or not. My condolences to his loved ones.
No, not all of us are idiots trying to show off.
He was not a child and neither were his family. The whole family were probably so religious and arrogant.
@@tessajones9393 I wonder what kind of explanation the LDS church has for this incident.
Speak for yourself.
Sometimes turning back when you know it’s right can be as much of an accomplishment as what you initially set out for.
After watching Mr. Ballen videos, I will never go caving or diving. Never ever!!
two corrections: 1. 4:18 it is clear and explicable why john went that way...he thought he was going into the birth canal. he just took the wrong turn, and he didn't realize he took the wrong turn. 2. the reason he kept "pushing forward" was because he thought it was the birth canal the whole time, which opens up at the end. because he knew the birth canal opens up, he pushed through adamantly, not realizing he wasn't in the birth canal at all
It look like a birth canal in the nutty putty and so he yeeted into it
@KwonJasperet these are just urban legend made up “rumors”
@KwonJasperet it was explained logically already by John. He didn’t know exactly where he was going, thought he was in the birth canal where it would open up. It’s that simple. It’s what he said and it logically makes sense too. There’s no evidence to the contrary, even if there are other possible scenarios that could’ve happened. Everything else is just made up stuff to make the story more intriguing
He seen a fork which he thought was the birth canal why if there is two whole to slide through why not think twice before continuing ahead it's his fault for thinking that was the right way he should of confirmed with his brother Josh is this the right way before trying to be the next best thing ! Ppl get to ahead of themselves thinking nothing could go wrong and everything got worse the more an more he kept going ! This is a sad situation to be in but at the same time he's the one to blame because he knew what he was doing nobody told him to go down there he wanted to and the fact they make a group of people have to sign a waiver plus only one group at a time go down into the nutty putty cave should tell you right there your at your own risk 😩 R.I.P John and prayers going to his family and friends ❤
I was literally telling someone about this story yesterday… the world works in mysterious ways 😂
So tragic - particularly given how close they were to rescuing John.
This is why I don't go in caves. Being buried alive is my worst nightmare.
A friend of mine recently died after becoming lost while hiking alone. She has recently ended a toxic marriage and I believe she was on a search of answers and peace. Thank you Dr Grande for continuing to make these videos of every day people who lose their lives to occurrences that may seem benign at first. Life is so so precious, and fragile. We should all be aware of the dangers of certain activities and people. ❤
People can be so strange. A cave is a geological formation that exists on a different timeline than humans. Most are formed over millions of years by tectonic shift, volcanic activity, water movement and glacial metamorphosis. Humans rarely live beyond 100 years and have free-will and are able to use judgement and reason, most of the time. John was a medical student, who was building his family. He had a lot to lose, but he went ahead and made what I think is a completely illogical chain of decisions to get himself hopelessly stuck. Blaming the cave is ridiculous. He used extremely poor critical thinking skills.
I've been caving before and I got stranded in a cave in the 1980s when my flashlight suddenly died. It was late at night and I had paddled out in an inflatable raft to an island in the lake where I had found the cave. One person was with me, but he decided to stay out of the cave until I got back out. When my light died, I kept my cool and began to feel my way further ahead to a sinkhole I knew about deeper in the cave. The way back would have required me to wade through a cavern full of water, which seemed more dangerous. It took a long time of crawling, but I eventually hit a wall and looked straight up, where I could see a very small patch of stars directly above me, hovering in the pitch blackness. I carefully climbed the wall of rock in the vertical portion of the cave, up to of the sinkhole, where I finally clambered out to the forest floor. My friend was relieved to see me. I never went caving again after that.
Arrogance.
I once climbed into a life-size reproduction of the Mercury capsule used by early astronauts. It was made of plastic, and was in a museum where people were allowed to climb into it to get an idea what it was like. But truth be told, I'm too large to be a Mercury astronaut. Once I got in and had my fill of the experience I realized it was going to be very difficult to get out. Of course, this was in a museum and I could have asked for help. It wasn't too busy that day, there weren't too many people around, but if I had yelled somebody would have come. I very quickly became panicked and had to expend some effort to regain my composure. After calming myself, I was able to climb out in a very awkward and ungainly fashion. I certainly learned a lesson about crawling into small places, and that was in a place where there wasn't any real danger. I think it gave me some tiny insight, in a very small way, how horrible it would be to be stuck in a cave, 100 ft underground. The thought chills me.
I would rather be ripped apart by sharks or a bear than die in a cave. My dad convinced me to scuba dive in a cave system , super deep . No thanks, never again. There's an even worse story of another cave disaster in Utah where these kids jump in a hole with water and swim to other side ! Like who does that ?! They all died and drowned 😢.
@@byuftbl oh man, ya I literally just learned about that story last month. So sad and scary too.
I saw that story , they didn't realise that the hole they swam to would get a build up of carbon monoxide from their breath , by the time they realised there wasn't a lot of air to take a deep breath to get back.
I think one of them went past the exit and couldnt find it , I think one of them died in the passageway making it impossible for the rest to get past which meany they died in there as well
@@steve10How is this incident referenced if I want to look it up?
@@greatamericandreamrealty802 Gollum cave disaster on youtube
@@greatamericandreamrealty802 I believe they are referring to the Gollum Cave deaths.
Very very well put very informative. Your insights are appreciated.