Did Deep Space Nine Plagiarize Babylon 5?
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- Опубликовано: 10 май 2018
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Straczynski’s email: jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-2132...
Patricia Tallman On Star Trek DS9 Copying Babylon 5: • Patricia Tallman On St...
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This would explain why DS9 was the best star trek series
shoots fired!
but true
except for those Ferengi cross dressing episodes. We dont mention those.
Here here!
@@purefoldnz3070 I'll give you that! ... but two of the best episodes were Ferengi based - ''Little Green Men'' and the funniest episode of Trek of all time will always be "The Magnificent Ferengi"
@@SardonicALLY and the one with all the cross dressing? Dear god lol
"Get the hell out of our galaxy, both of you!" Still noone can beat Sheridan's one liner.
well, I think that in DS9 and Sisko leaving the baseball on his desk for Dukat to find is a hell of a statement of equal weight. However, Sheridan's "See you in hell!" after he blew up the Black Star is way better one liner.
... or G'Kar's Declaration of Principles
... or the wisdom and humor of Marcus: ruclips.net/video/03bOrvlAyeQ/видео.html who also inspired me to learn the first few lines of the Major-General's song ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major-General%27s_Song ) [I am crap at fast-talking]
... or the mindblowing "If you can't say what you're meaning, you can never mean what you're saying. The details are everything." quote from the Centauri Minister of Intelligence which is sooo useful these days with leftists redefining words left and right
... or even the "death ... been there, done that" line from Sheridan again.
"And I could nail your head to the table, set it on fire, and feed your charred remains to the Pak Mara.....but as you say- It's an imperfect universe." Sheridan to Bester.
Best bitch-slap ever.
P.S.- As the fleet is departing for the final battle with the Vorlons and Shadows, Sheridan does a voice-over of a Yeats poem ("Though we are not now that strength which in old time moved heaven and earth, that which we are, we are...") that someone, apparently Sinclair, had left on his desk for Sheridan to find when he took over, so the baseball thing may have been a bit of a rip-off as well.
Admiral Attila Nah, it has to be Deleens "If you value your lives, be somewhere else," from Severed Dreams.
"He is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
Loved both shows but my heart lies with Babylon Five. Such epic storyline with some very moving episodes.
Yeah same, I feel more at home in B5. Some like silk, other like satin
I agree, and Babylon 5 felt "kind of" like home. Kind of sad when they blew it up.
Honestly the Pah Wraiths suck compared to the Shadows
But admit it, you love to hate Dukat and Weyoun
@@aliboy357
I love them both, great villains especially Dukat. Then he went insane, which I liked less.
The one thing I'll give DS9 over B5 is that it probably had superior villains. B5 had Bester, Morden, Cartagia and few others, but none of them quite did it for me the way Dukat and Weyoun and obviously/ocassionally Garak did. However, B5 had much better scary ancient aliens than the dopey Pah Wraiths. The Shadows and Third Space Aliens felt truly inhuman and threatening.
@@robwalsh9843 how dare you call garak a villain. How dare you
Well Pah Wraiths is a more creative name then Shadows so atleast they have that over the others.
I am going to have to watch B5 now.
Theresa Skywalker - It's worth it. 😀
I am going to warn you that the first season is nigh unwatchable with some very good gems.
It starts with movies.
yep it's time I watched
Season 1 gets better after Mr. Morden shows up.
What convinced me was that B5's bible originally had a shape-shifter security officer that was dropped...but adopted by DS9. Full disclosure, I love both shows to death.
I never knew JMS considered having that.
Did they? I'd heard the shapeshifter was the changeling net from the pilot.
@@Karajorma so what I heard is it went from the "bible" paramount read had a notion of a shapeshifting character that was recurring to the changeling net in the pilot to...getting dropped.
@@BlindeyeZero Okay. Thanks.
Here a match for the ages... Oto vs Garibaldi... in a match of wit... who would win
DS9's Leeta was a Dabo girl and Londo's Lady Adira came from Dabo.
And Yoda was in exile on Dagobah
Great spot.
DS9 was a good show. Babylon 5 was Epic! MIT even named it one of 3 Sci-fi shows that had tremendous influence on American TV. DS9 didn't have a JMS writing the scripts.
Had a more poetic vibe to it as well
DS9 didn't have a JMS, but Ira Behr, Robert Hewitt Wolfe, and Ron Moore weren't exactly dollar store hacks.
(full disclosure: I am 100% in the DS9 camp in the Great Fanboy War.)
Great video. According to JMS, Peter Jurasik who played Londo was at a party in LA many years ago when both shows were on the air and said one of the main DS9 cast members who was also there (didn’t say who) privately confided to him saying ‘I just wanted to let you know that we (DS9) are rooting for you (B5) because we know the show comes from you.’ There is also some detailed info in Straczynski’s new biography from a marketing exec which also backs up that Paramount ripped off the show for DS9. That’s why every time on the Big Bang Theory when Sheldon rips on Babylon 5 or calls it “derivative” I want to slap that little jackass right in the face.
It's all a bunch of nonsense. Babylon 5 was basically pitched as a star trek show. Like it was literally in the same era as TOS i.e. 2260ish. It had 5 key members of babylon5, which is exactly the same as the 5 founding races of the federation. Even the Vorlons are pretty mouch the same as the tholiens, the vulcans the minbari and the tellerates and narn sharing similarities traits. The trek movies at that point had all had space stations as major plot points, at the same time the joint Russian American space station was getting endless attention as the cold war ended(exact same idea as in babylon 5. Not to forget that the entire plot of star trek 6 came out before babylon 5 was even pitched.
@@dixonhill1108Sorry, but what you're saying is the real nonsense. The things you pointed out are either coincidences or general similarities that you could easily call inspiration, either from Star Trek or general sci-fi tropes. I.e. what does Federation having 5 founding members have to do with the 5 major races of Babylon 5, when they all have separate governments that often go against each other?
Meanwhile DS9 has very specific and numerous similarities to B5. It even has a major shift in tone compared to previous Star Trek series. It becomes a lot like Babylon 5, morally ambiguous, darker, with political intrigue and war as central themes and with a running undercurrent of shady business, gambling, sleaziness and corruption. These are themes that Star Trek consciously rejected for the most part in TOS and TNG in favor of a naive utopian view of the future, yet they are embraced in DS9.
@@zlosliwa_menda "has very specific" " morally ambiguous, darker, with political intrigue and war as central themes "" are you for real? You talk about "specifics" and list off tonal similarities that were just naturally occurring parts of 90s culture. TNG was from the 80s and even in its time it was hyper cheesy/safe. The writers wanted to do a darker story and did 10 minutes after gene died. Best of both worlds was as dark and as bleak as the shadows and that was in the spring of 1990. Even in season 1 conspiracy had a cabal of starfleet admirals in league with an alien species.
@dixonhill1108 Walter Koenig warned JMS that Paramount executives were planning to sample the Babylon 5 bible that he had shared previous to the start of DS9.
Majel Roddenberry had problems and concerns with Paramount executives as well, to the point that she was playing a character in B5 episode.
An obvious message to Paramount about her independence and her awareness of the studios behavior.
Yes that happened and like I said, the reason they were so shameless in doing so was exactly because he made a star trek knock off. Copied almost everything from it. @@user-Stephen-1967 "I have this great wonderful idea, it's star trek on a space station" and then he acts like the victim when they do it on their own.
I tried watching DS9 when it first ran but it never grabbed me like B5 did. I love B5 I especially the chemistry between Lando and G'Kar.
This is a massively old controversy, but it was resolved during the run of BOTH series. Majel Barrett-Roddenberry did a guest starring role on B5, and Bill Mumy did a guest starring role on DS9 as a means of saying, "we're good now."
Both shows are great and deserve proper HD remasters.
Hell yeah, proper HD remasters. Which means higher resolution, not total design revamps like what some "these designs look too cartoony and should look more like newBSG" idiots would want.
Yeah the guest roles were an olive branch. I heard that they can't do a HD remaster of B5 because of how they did the special effects post-filming... They would have to recreate all the CGI
@@benjo_5 this is true, and at a hell of a cost, paramount never recouped its costs on star trek the next generation which was a shame as they did a fantastic job
bcblom Considering the quality of fan-made CGI these days, I wouldn't be so sure. It's probably a lot cheaper to do an HD remake today, than it was back even five years ago.
Wasn't Walter koenig also on B5?
Babylon 5: Straczynski was the BOSS!
I watch B5 once a year. It never gets stale and always makes me weepy in the finale.
I like DS9, but I love Babylon 5! Hands down one of my favorite series of all time!!!
Having watched both series, i have noticed even the character relationships are similar. Bashir and O'Brien are basically Stephen and Garibaldi, Odo and Quark are G'kar and Londo. Sisko obviously Sheridan (the chosen ones/oracles) and you could probably notice a lot more little intricacies.
if they settled the lawsuit, then it's true.
"We're not some deep space franchise..." LOL
Garibaldi: a dooms day weapon
Lyta: pleased to meet you, Mr Garibaldi.
People who have seen B5 will know that reference.
Also loved the line if you value your lives be somewhere else.
I liked both series to be honest.
My favorite is: The avalanche has already started, it's too late for the pebbles to vote.
Keeva2006 agreed she was poorly treated but one most remember that she did in effect activate the defenses of the enemy telepathically against the wishes and orders of Sheridan.
“You mentioned wondering what my pleasure threshold is. I recently found out…I don’t have one.”
That moment with Lyta gives me chills every time.
Not only a weapon but a HAWT weapon....Sexy red-head with big breasts,pick me.I'd be afraid she would look into my mind and see the nekked lust.....I also remember when she told G'kar that she has never really discovered just how deep her passions ran....He shivered and so did I...lol
I've seen both shows. DS9 is good, my second favorite Trek series after the original. Babylon 5 is transcendent.
choclytgremlins Well said!
Ds9
Voyager
Tng
Original
Don't get it twisted
B5 is better. Season 1 was rough though. But the pay offs, oh the pay offs...
Ds9 is the best star trek,
That said, I am happy I have both on my shelf.
I might rank season 5 of B5 lower than 1. Byron and the telepaths...
i'll keep trying to watch B5 but i have to tell you i can't even make it through the first episode.
the acting is sooooo bad, it's unbearable.
it has been said by some that Siddig El Fadil was the worst actor on DS9 but he's the greatest actor of all time in comparison to those on babylon.
So you are saying that DS9 is the best Star Trek and B5 is better than DS9?
I gotta run and start watching that show ASAP! :O
Nah, the Original Star Trek and The Next Generation are in a superior league. My issue with Deep Space 9 is the vast amount of lazy writing and contrived story arcs. The exact same thing happened from the end of season 2 of Battlestar Galactica as well - though not to the same extent of DS9 until the fifth series of BSG. Battlestar Galactica still had VAST improvements over DS9, particularly in how the military functioned (it was absolute rubbish in DS9). That said, as a full arc from beginning to end, Babylon 5 crushes anything else that ever attempted to do what it did... in sci-fi at least. What DS9 does exceedingly well, though, is characters; Jake > Wesley.
@@colinmontgomery5492 "We're playing Harry Potter!"
The fact that both shows ended up getting made is proof that we are living in the best timeline.
DS9 is by far my favorite Sci Fi series I grew up with. I love the show I wish it never ended. I've recently given B5 a chance tho. And so far I'm hooked.
Regardless of the copying, both are amazing shows.
Well said
@Devan Hale Fuck off
@Devan Hale but copies don't tend to be good.
Nope. DS9 sux.
@@lewstone5430 dominion war arc
Thank you for opening my eyes. I never knew any of this. Since B5 premiered after DS9, I simply assumed that B5 was just a Johnny-come-lately impostor, and I never gave it a chance. Thank you!
Dude's dealing in half-truths, I'm sorry to say. The main thing I would direct you to is his comment about how both Sisko and Sheridan were widowers ... thing is, there was never supposed to even be a Sheridan; it was supposed to be Sinclair for five seasons of B5, at the end of which he'd take Babylon 4 back in time and become Valen. But Michael O'Hare had to quit after one season for medical reasons, and so they had to scramble to shoehorn in a new commander to continue the story. That's when they introduced Sheridan, the widower. Now my question is: how could DS9 have ripped that widower element off, when even the B5 writers had no idea Sinclair was going to have to be written out?
Here's another half-truth. Dude mentions that both Sisko and Sinclair have girlfriends who have their own ships, and he's not wrong about that. HOWEVER, the fact that Kasidy Yates is a captain barely matters to the plot, and seems to be an excuse for her to only occasionally show up (at first). But Sinclair's space explorer girlfriend ... that was intended to be a big deal. The original vision was that she would go missing and be presumed dead, and Sinclair and Delenn would start becoming a couple. Then, all of a sudden ... space explorer would return unexpectedly, as a puppet of the Shadows. So the fact that she was a space explorer was a crucial element to the plot. (You can also see why they introduced Sheridan as a widower, so that he would have a pre-disappeared wife who would unexpectedly return.)
I like DS9, I like B5 (at least the Boxleitnery seasons), but the accusations against DS9 seem like sour grapes to me: B5 fans are mad that the show wasn't better-received, and so have taken to claiming that DS9 must have cheated.
Sadly, you and many others. B5 may be dated, though it seems we are getting a higher definition version on DVDs soon for at least interior live action shots, but the characters and writing is best on TV, because same guy was original idea man, show runner and main writer, so there was tonal consistency and character did not act out of character or mess up the timeline as often happens elsewhere (Andromeda, I am looking at you, you assassin of great potential). Also I think it helped that they had small budget so they had to be creative to do what they were doing and thus thought many times over and improved on details as they did so. Little thing, but it adds up over time. As for what @kingbeauregard says, in the show bible there was the plot about the significant other of the station comander that was an explorer to be the one to find Zahadum and awaken the Shadows. Because Michael O´Hare had mental problems he stepped down and we got Sharidan who did not have a girlfriend, but a missing wife that was archeologist. Presonaly I prefer Sharidan as a character to Sinclair so I am happy with the change, but you get idiots occasionally who claim to know everything but do not do background research beyond what the show actually aired. Every character had a backup that could step in if the main actor had to leave the show, Londo had Vir for example, if Londo had to be killed off Vir would become the ambassador for Centauri and story line itself, which was in the bible from the start, would remain unchanged. That is what happened with the girlfriend that was supposed to find Shadows and how she was replaced with missing wife. It was important plot point that needed to be preserved even if the character in it changed.
@@Matej_Sojka Here is a review of the B5 bible:
www.worldsofjms.com/b5/reviews/b5bible.htm
Sheridan is not even mentioned in it. I consider that pretty strong evidence that DS9 didn't base Sisko on Sheridan.
As it works out, I am in full agreement on this sentence of yours: "Presonaly I prefer Sharidan as a character to Sinclair so I am happy with the change, but you get idiots occasionally who claim to know everything but do not do background research beyond what the show actually aired."
@@kingbeauregard I did not say Sisko was based on Sharidan. I said the story arc was planned and the one who awakened the shadows was supposed to be the significant other of the station commander. When the commander changed, so did the significant other. If O´Hare continued in the role he would have lost his GF to the Shadows. As far as I know, Sisko´s wife was not the one who started the war in DS9. As far as I am concerned, the whole argument about Sisko´s background is weakest of all arguments about plagiarism, but I do not doubt that it happened.
@Meanie Panini Okay, but the fact that you like B5 better does not mean that DS9 was a ripoff of B5. Yeah they have similarities; so do any two TV shows about New York cops, or gunfighters in the Old West, or private detectives, or defense attorneys. And if we're going to play the "who ripped off whom" game, almost all of B5 was ripped off from original "Star Trek". Remember the episode "Journey to Babel", about squabbling diplomats on their way to the diplomatic facility Babel, but the Enterprise was under attack from a mysterious threat and it turns out there was a bad guy on the ship in disguise? That's pretty much the original B5 movie right there, plus the Shadows. Even the name of the show comes from that episode.
But I don't hold the ripping off against B5; similarities are inevitable, and the obvious stealing of some details doesn't much matter. What I do detect from a lot of B5 fans is that they begrudge DS9 its budget, its better pool of actors, and its not being tied to PTEN for its initial run; so they're willing to make claims about DS9 that don't hold up. It's that creepy kind of loyalty that makes a person ask, "what is WITH those people?"
Paramount actively tried to get B5 canceled. At one point the network I was able to watch it on was bought by paramount and B5 was moved to airing at 3am Monday morning. Some networks were runing both Ds9 and B5 and Paramount issued an edict that any network carrying B5 couldn't have DS9. Some networks threatened to sue, but many dropped B5. They eventually got the show canceled in season 4 which is why the story lines were collapsed and condensed in season4, season5 was on another network an they were able to wrap up some of the story lines they had chosen to drop in the season 4 rush.
I remember that,i was wondering where the hell season 4 part 2 was.....then one morning at like 2 am I caught it and missed like 3 episodes.Thank god it got all 5 seasons in the end though.
SFB Addict: I believe it was TBS that bought the rights. They pre-empted several episodes of the last season for football or something, then moved the show to those ridiculous we small hours. I missed the final five episodes - really PO’ed me. I still hate TBS. But, I am now watching on Amazon Prime - the entire series (on season 4, episode 5). The streaming services will eventually kill the networks - primary and cable. Good!
But yeah right on Linda yeah I can honestly say for the most part every single Season gets better and better,really cant say that about most great shows,usually its just the opposite if anything and they get progressively worse and worse...even the great shows..cough cough Lost lol...But yeah babylon 5 id have to say my two favorite seasons would be a toss up between 2 and 4,with 3 coming in like 1 percent behind both so 2 3 and 4 pretty much perfect,1 also great,5 I actually liked the least my self,and yet it was still absolutely fantastic and almost perfect as it was for a final season anyways.thats just how good I thought all seasons were.
Danny Hicks I really need to start watching again. I was invested enough in the story and characters that when I started season 5 to see another new commander...I just wasn't ready for it so I stopped. I'll have to watch it all over, and then grab the movies too. Weren't there about 5 of those as well?
Oh I hear ya,but no need to worry if ya didnt see season 5,Sheridan is still there everyone is minus ivanova who sadly I think wanted or chose to leave,but yeah nbew captain lady and all,but everyone else is still there so it still worked out good.
What really set B5 apart was it was early-days for the Internet and there were message boards that followed each episode by episode with parts posted by the creator called "JMS Speaks". All of the overarching lore and sci-fi rules were consistent and the only BS Technobable stuff was the running joke that the top speed of a Starfury was "The Speed of Plot"
B5 was better with a for me at least, deeper story-line.
Element from the first shows became clear many seasons later and not a single second before.
That and the spaceships were so much more iconic.
I loved the Defiance, the hero ship if you will, but even this ship is far outclassed by ships of all the major races in B5.
Its not even a close match, or a match at all, the winner is stupendously clear!
Existing ST lore was actually a poison in this aspect, it tied SD9 to something much less creative.
I disagree about existing ST lore being a "poison". During the Dominion war watching the good and peaceful Federation pulling out all the stops (In the Pale Moonlight, Siege of AR-51 (or whatever)), major violations of what TNG was all about, made for great TV.
WHICH show is best?
All *I* will say is there is not a *_Shadow_* of a doubt in my mind...😝
However, the DOMINION of certain franchises cannot be denied.
@Brian Coley >>> Much like the Centauri Emperor {portrayed by Turhan Bey} was going to END hostilities between the Centauri and the Narn, but the Emperor died before he could do so....
When I started to watch Babylon 5. I was so awed by the story and characters. Real changes happened and not everyone made it to the end of this 5 year story arc. I sometimes wish JMS had been given the go ahead for all 5 seasons so the overall story arc flowed so well as 1-4 did. I also finally understood what formula writing is. When I continued to watch DS9...well...you never get too overly concerned about a plot or character because it's always tied up so neatly at the end of each episode. If Odo had permanently lost his shape shifting powers...that's real story telling. That's character change. I was literally shocked at some points when some of the main characters in B5 met the end of their stories. It was like a great novel in TV form. Since then my desire for "smart" SF has been there. Oh don't get me wrong. I did like Star Trek overall...but if I had to choose. B5 wins and still rocks it to this day. I would suggest to anyone who hasn't seen it to give it a try. Yes, it has it's 1st season awkwardness...but it goes away quickly. You will fall in love with all the characters and story that Babylon 5 had. I look forward to your thoughts on Babylon 5 in that future video you talked about.
Malryth , agreed. While DS9 was pretty good, B5 was a level above due to great character growth, epic story telling, and very rarely using the "reset button". Almost all actions had permanent or near permanent consequences.
Agreed, except for the slowness of the 1st season, there was actually a lot of reveal in S1 to what was coming, but when first aired it seemed both clumsy and uninteresting. Watched again around middle of S2 by accident (surfing) and was blown away. Luckily I had a volleyball friend that had taped S1 and S2, he lent them to me so I could fill in what I missed.
Exactly. When you get to the end of B5, you can see that it was all one big story centered on one event that transformed the galaxy. When you get to the end of DS9, a lot of little stories have been strung together into something approximating continuity, but that's all. I think reading the speculations in the Lurker's Guide about what each episode might or might not tell us about "the arc", in those early days of the Internet, was what helped me stick with season 1 when it seemed a bit slow and disjointed.
Well said. On re-watching B5 season 1, even there, there are hints and setups for what’s to come. But you’re right: no comparison. The G’kar-Londo story had me weeping multiple times. Utterly epic storytelling, character growth and change over time, and important questions asked that didn’t have easy answers. Even metaphysics. Another thing I loved: a number of great women warriors in normal uniforms and costumes. B5 all the way.
you know whats different Kira isn't god on her station like Ivanova was on B5.
Damn good point, lol.
Kira did briefly get possessed by a god.
@@bronzedivision, Don't forget that Ivanava is a Telepath.
Kira was pretty badass, but Ivanova would have wiped the floor with her.
@@bronzedivision The most delicious part of that was that the Prophets chose the closest thing to a secular Bajoran as their vessel over that bitch Kai Winn who was the religious leader of Bajor.
B5 > all sci-fi on TV.
^ This
Cries in Firefly
@@chrisdufresne9359 FIrefly is nowhere near a grand in scope. It basically focuses on one ship and its crew. Still pretty cool, though.
This video made me call my dad to tell him what I had just discovered. Years ago, he dismissed B5 as a DS9 knock-off and refused to watch it. Bearing the proof that I was right all along, I called him. Apparently, my mother got him to watch it later. >.> Always one step ahead, Mom...
What a tosser of a father. Babylon 5 was epic. Watch both.
B5 is my favorite sci show; man i obsessed over it for a long time
IMO Babylon 5 without doubt.. I was gutted when the spin off "Crusade" was canned.
I'd just finished watching Gary Cole in "American Gothic" and he was perfect for the part..
*Sid'istic Atheist,* as I pointed out at the time, Gary Cole had gone from playing one of the most positive male characters in television history, namely, MIke Brady in the reunion movie of _The Brady Bunch_ (he basically channeled the already-late Robert Reed for that role), then turned around and played an incarnation of ultimate evil in _American Gothic._ He’s an amazing actor.
I’ve always loved Gary Cole and thought that he did an awesome job on Crusade. He’s definitely underrated.
One thing that stood out about DS9 though was the robust cast. Having an ensemble main cast isn't a new thing, but DS9 built an exceptional secondary cast that almost overshadowed those with their names in the title credits. Characters like Nog, Garak and even Damar at the end. Yes, Dukat has a similar name to someone from B5, but his character was something totally different and huge props to Mark Alaimo for his wonderful performance.
Meanwhile, B5 was a bit too far ahead of its time. It came out when CGI was still in its infancy, and couldn't quite reach the level it needed to, giving B5 a dated look. If it were instead made a decade later, it could have been on a visual level that Battlestar Galactica had reached, and been all the better for it.
Another note... Paramount is rather notorious for stealing ideas pitched to them, though they are not the only studio guilty of this. It is pretty rampant throughout Hollywood as a whole. Lesson to be learned? If you have a great idea, don't take it to a studio, make it yourself. We have access to filmmaking equipment, technology, software, funding and distribution that is absolutely unprecedented. We don't need Hollywood anymore.
Wow never realized how similar they are. B5 is my fav sci-fi ever 😊
If, in some hypothetical reality, only one of them had to exist .... I would have to go with B5.
Ruprect44 If in some hypothetical reality, only one of them had to exist ... I would break the rules and build both. ;)
In current reality I wish there were B5 versions of the Next Generation, Voyager, and Enterprise. ;)
There is no reality where DS9 exists and B5 does not, because a Star TREK would not be based on a station and long story arcs unless the blueprints of B5 were presented to the morons at Paramount. They have a long history of plagiarism.
Paramount: here's your show bible Mr. Straczynski sorry it didn't work out.
Straczynski: Thanks...uhm did I hear a copying machine running back there??
Paramount: I didn't hear anything...😓
Jimmy B --- LOL!
Other similarities:
Founders acted behind the scenes and hid themselves (shapeshifting), while having their agents (Vorta and Jem'Hdar) do their bidding. Shadows acted behind the scenes and could make themselves invisible, while having their agents (Morden and Drakh) do their bidding.
Founders used organic technology in genetically engineering the Vorta and Jem'Hdar. The Shadows used organic technology to make their ships and control units.
The Prophets were non-linear and knew the past and future. Time travel allowed Valen and the Vorlons to know the past and future.
Both series had episodes involving a secret intelligence agency, that acted outside the law. Section 31 in DS9, and the Psi Corps in B5.
Both series had the powerful forces stalemated by their enemies, with the stalemate broken by the space station commander. Prophets and Pa-wraiths in DS9, and Vorlons and Shadows in B5.
B5 was a pioneer of long form story telling. It changed our media world from one off episodes to long story arcs.
Best Sci-fi Tv series ever! Today "The Expanse" keeps the flame alive.
At the beginning of each series, the commanding officer is rank commander and later a person of captain rank
The commander/captain of DS9 never changes, for B5 it changes twice ...
B5 had to, because the actor of Sinclair left the show, so they had to come up with a substitute
+Marcio Neves There was always a plan to replace Sinclair. But the original plan was to replace him later on, in the third season after certain events that I won't spoil here. It's just that MIchael O'Hare was mentally ill, and literally could not continue after Season 1, so they had to replace him earlier than they had originally intended. (You can see JMS talk about it here on RUclips.) (Edit: Couldn't get a hyperlink to work. Just search for it on RUclips.)
For the record, I do think that DS9 plagiarized B5, but I enjoy both shows.
John Landon - To refer to specific RUclips videos in a RUclips comment, copy and paste the /watch?v=dhxuGfd37 part of the URL of the video you want to refer someone to.
It does change as Kira is made commander (when sisko isn't available) Ivanaova was partly reworked into Lockley and Kira therefore has a bit of both people in her arc.
Ivanova ends up with a semi-religious job in charge of the Rangers - where as Kira (in the novels joins the priesthood).
I suppose the idea of people not appear to be what they seem applies to both shows - especially to Garek and Quark.
I love both shows. But Babylon 5 is without question the better show.
Nah, Babylon 5 really doesn't build to anything over the course of the entire seasons. You can basically skip S1 since very little with Sinclair ended up mattering. And S5 was largely forgettable and seemed like a show that lasted 1 year too long, since they basically blew off the big storylines in S4. Babylon 5 had a solid run from S2-4.
Regardless of the plagiarism aspect what exactly is the basis of Babylon 5 being a better show?
@Signal 6EQUJ5 Trust me, it isn't. Babylon 5 is shorter and has 22 episodes a season so there aren't those 3-4 filler episodes, but DS9 just hit much higher peaks. Babylon 5's alien characters are fun to watch (Londo, G'Kar, Delenn, Lennier) and carry things, but most of the station officers weren't all that thrilling. DS9's supporting cast also totally blows away B5, who had Walter Koenig and not a whole lot else. B5 has a largely pointless S1 due to Michael O'Hare's issues, so most of it was moot once Bruce Boxleitner showed up. And truth be told the main storylines were all blown off in S4, so most of S5 was an anticlimax. That's 2 seasons out of 5 that didn't do much for me.
Someone mentioned the Bureau 13 thing below, but B5 does NOTHING with that premise. Sheridan mentions it and it's dropped totally. DS9 introduces Section 31 and actually does stuff with it, and Trek has used Section 31 in most shows since.
@@DemoSonicScreamer1 I actually started watching the show in the middle of season 2. And you are right. There were some nice connections to later in the show, like the Babylon 4-story arc. They made me smile when I watched season 1 after season 4, but nothing of much consequence.
I watched b5 when it aired and decided to binge ds9 recently and both shows are phenomenal but if i had to pick one, it would be b5 by a hair....
I think ds9 did a better job of world building and creating a mythos, but i found the b5 version of the future much more realistic and the show was more palatable to mainstream viewers because the technobabble was minimal....
@Signal 6EQUJ5 I actually thought the Special Effects on B5 were better than DS9...particularly the space battles....and I am saying this after watching these shows 20+ years later!
I guess the money all went to the actors.
Love B5. DS9 is good too (if ripped off). B5 had so many things going against it compared to DS9, but they still managed to create some of the best characters and interactions I've ever seen. B5 affected me in a profound and permanent way, plus I was an Amiga fanboy, and B5 used Amiga's for GFX in the early days. The loss of B5 actors over the years has been quite shocking and sad though.
There was also the occupation-resentment historical background, and how it affected both on-screen stories and character interactions. DS9 had the Cardassian occupation of Bajor; B5 had the Centauri occupation of the Narn homeworld.
B5 had a changeling character written but this was changed to a "changeling net" device in the pilot for budgetary reasons.
Sisko and Sinclair were both traumatized by battles to save Earth where the defenders were annihilated.
Fun fact, my dad was the graphics artist who made the Mars Dome matte painting for Babylon 5.
B5 had a perfect 4-season arc. And then season 5 happened ...
We don't talk about season 5. Just like the movie, star trek 5, it never happened. Doesn't exist. When people ask me about it, I say "What are you talking about? There is no B5 season 5. You stupid?"
Babylon 5 was a unique show way ahead of its time. It had a 5 year story arc with amazing continuity, when almost all television was episodic. It dared to be different, to be raw, emotional, spiritual. Deep Space Nine ripped off the frame work, but had none of the intensity, because it kept the Star Trek style. And, well, G'Kar, Londo, Delenn... show me the equivellant in DS9... there are none. :)
You are right about the intensity. DS9 had characters with intriguing background. Dukat was probably the only character that best used and had the most development. It is a shame that they never dared with other characters go to town and take risks to explore them. There was Bashir's genetic engineering and how it effects on him as a person. Odo with being a founder, and not just a shapeshifter, should have been better explored. Kira's time as a terrorist was touched, but they never made her too dirty. Dax has 9 lifetimes to make mistakes. They would do 1 or 2 episodes and never touch on the subject again. There were good actors playing these parts. The only thing that I hated about B5 was the 5th season. it never felt like it was part of the story arc, like the 4 seasons before it...
angel rivera That's because JMS never knew if he would get a fifth season or not, so he wrapped up the main storyline in season 4. As a result, the end of the shadow war felt a little rushed, and he had mainly "left-over" ideas for season 5. It's as shame he didn't get to finish it at his own pace, but its still a great series.
G'kar+Londo/odo+Quark.
Sisco+Cassidy/sheridan+Delenn
Worf/Garak
Man, I can't believe that, Bestor doesn't get a mention.
Good point.
Bestor/Weyoun
Dunno which was better, I never watched B5 - but I think I should now...
Reggie Reginato It's very good, even if the cg is dated. Walter Koeing is one of the main bad guys as a powerful telepath.
Do it reggie, i gave it a go about 2005 but decided not to get into it. Though gave it another chance a few years back and i have to say i am happy i did. It turned out to be one of the greatest series i have ever watched. So well written with layers that overlap each other from seasons years apart.
Watch it. I do a full watch every January. The best sci fi show. Put simply, the only show with a prescripted beginning, middle, and end before a single second of filming. No winging it.
Season 2 to 4 were outstanding. Season 5 slows a lot down, until the final third, where it goes out pretty well.
Wow really?
It's one of my favorite shows ever, and my wife and I have the entire show on DVD and have rewatched the entire series at least 6-8 time, we say "It's time for a Babylonathon" and then spend the next few weeks binging on the B5 series.
I highly suggest you give it a try, it takes a bit to get it's footing, so give it a couple seasons, and it all pays off at the end. Sadly I just wish the studios hadn't been so wishy washy on it, which resulted in a lot of the in them wrapping up many of the stories in the 4th season, as they didn't think they would get a 5th, but then they did (which is why the final episode of season 4 seems like a series finale, since at that point they thought it might be.)
Star trek was always each show separated episode. B5 was the first with a storry with in a storry
Grew up on B5 and watched DS9 in my late teens. BOTH are amazing!
I loved DS9 like most Startrek series, but B5 did it better with a much smaller budget and DS9 straight up stole from the B5 creators
While I enjoyed DS9, once it finally got it's footing, I'm saddened by the fact that I think DS9 ended up stealing much of the B5 thunder and fan base, and had it not been ripped off it could have potentially had much more support and influence than it had.
It's sort of like if Disney released a second super hero type movie the same week as Avengers Infinity War, no matter how good the other movie was, it would suffer because most people would automatically be pulled to the Avengers. Although with B5 it was even worse since it continued over years so it hurt not only the initial release, but the budgets for follow on seasons and such.
The 1984 stuff in B5 was awesome. The Nightwatch stuff reminds me of... now, with all the attacks of free speech.
B5 is the benchmark by which I judge all sci fi.
B5 had a special place in my heart because it didn't put humanity on an equal footing with the other races. Technologically speaking, they were inferior in many aspects. The Federation and Star Trek tech in general is just, for lack of a better phrase, "too advanced".
I don't know but I think that the human technology level was used as a way to show how strong human will actually. The humans held at bay one of the most powerful races in the B5 universe for 2 years and made the Minbari fight for all their victories. Not dying without a fight.
Agreed. The strength of the human spirit and will was more on display than the might of their military.
i wouldt say 'too advanced' for me, rather...trek was allways...too clean, too wholesome. humans are greedy, bothersome and downright nasty as a spieces. i do no t realy see us getting to the trek federation level of 'niceness' by the time they did. but B5s slightly grotty, grumpy and rather selfish humans i did belive more. it felt more beliveable to me than ds9.
trek is the hopefull daydream, b5 is kinda...what ya expect to get after the big guys got thru with the money for the future lmao
I get what you say and you are right in that. What I liked about DS9 was that there were many episodes that the too clean, too wholesome humans having to get dirty. The greedy nasty humans and heroes showing up to do what is right appears in most of television and movies. I found it more interesting the question that if you created an ideal, almost utopian society, now what are you going to do to preserve it? How much are you willing to sacrifice? B5 was great and with compelling characters that i cared about, but I found humans to be the same as today. Societies change with over time and there are consequences of the technological changes good and bad. We never saw that. I would have loved more episodes about telepaths impact to humanity. We have the Psy. Corps and the underground railroads. Then what? What about the legal issues about telepath rights? Lawsuits against the Psy. Corps by civil rights organizations. Bester being told to be low key since they can't afford bad publicity that would hurt the Corps. He reads people left and right, that is a lawsuit waiting to happen. things like that..
would have loved that too. unfortunately we never got any of it as everything got canned. crusade, the rangers...i mean, i watched all the trek too, loved tng, voyager and ds9 but i can only watch them again after at least 5+ years..b5? every year i watch at least some episodes. for me, its b5 as my desrt island scifi dvd set. along with my dune books lol
B5 is much more serial and closer to the likes of breaking bad type of long form story telling than episode two parter centric trek ds9 still manage to stick to at least for the first few seasons. ( likes of rikers twin, q showing up are prime examples). B5 stories from second to fourth season are much more connected, even some of the dialogue really shows it needs a second or third draft or doctoring lol. But we have to give credit as JMS writes most of them... ds9 has enriched the trek main timeline, and b5 has made history in us television. I wish they reboot B5 not Star Trek. As there is clearly a lot more story to be told on B5 plot arc.
It was one of the first series, outside of a soap opera, that did the season arcs. We owe a lot of tv story telling advances to B5.
DP9 did a really nice long form narrative for multiple stories. Bajor, Dominion, Emissary and the Klingons.
NOPE! A reboot of B5 means that they would ruin it by messing with story.
The sad thing is that many, many years before, Gene Roddenberry pitched Star Trek to a studio that rejected it and used many of his ideas to create a show called "Lost in Space." Now, Star Trek has done the same thing to someone else.
Its not JUST that, its the fact Startrek did a lot to try to make its fans ignore B5, it hurt the better show a lot.
Now DS9 is still a decent show, but B5 has always been a better show.
I dunno, I'll have to watch B5 to see what I think. I will say, though, that settling out of court proves nothing more than it would have cost more to fight than to cough up some go-away money.
Paramount almost had more money than God, so....
Babylon Five was better. I liked both shows, but B5 was better.
So agreed! Star Trek: DS9 has notable episodes (In The Pale Moonlight, Trials And Tribulations, The Valiant, Blood Oath) don't get me wrong. But Babylon 5 ruled far as i'm concerned, it'll always be one of my favorite sci-fi shows bar none!
B5 is, imo, the best space show I've ever seen (and I've seen almost all of them).
Except Season 5 sucked.....BADLY.
I agree season 5 wasn't as good, but part of that was because JMS had wrapped up the arc at the end of season 4 because he thought they were being cancelled. When the show was renewed, it left him going backwards with his storytelling...never an ideal situation.
Ness well, as far as I am concerned, Deconstruction of Falling Stars is the finale, with Sleeping in Light being the only one worth watching after that.
Hollywood is full of these "homage" stories. A friend of mine was a writer/producer in LA and was pitching a show about a quirky family of morticians. She went to all the cable networks, the last of which was HBO. They declined...but imagine her surprise when eighteen months later, they premiered a series called Six Feet Under.
B5 remains my very favorite SF - or any other - show of all time. Thank you for this video.
I love b5 because it is one of the very few science fiction shows were humanity gets their teeth kicked in by a technologically superior enemy like it happens in the real world.
_"It's a fake."_
It's a fake, ds9 didn't rip off anything. DS9's original script calls for a planet base, they only changed it to a space station weeks after shooting because they ran into budget problems due to being on location all the time.
TentaclePentacle one or 2 things can be a coincidence. A few dozen points of similarity is clearly intentional. Jms never blamed Berman, pillar, etc, he blamed the upper management at paramount.
+Ameha K
Most of the scifi stories have similar themes. The upper management didn't come up with the idea of ds9. It was 1 guy who used to work for NBC that came up the idea. He brought the idea with him when he was hired to work for parament. DS9 was inspired by the rifleman where a frontier sheriff ran a town. All the story points of sisko are a direct copy of the rifleman. The show as supposed to be based on a planet, not a space station. They only changed it to a space station after they had already begun shooting because it was too expansive for them to constantly go out on location.
TentaclePentacle the station was designed long before they started shooting
+Ameha K
Yes the station was designed long before shooting, the station was designed long before B5 was pitched. The station was designed for TNG.
Great presentation. I loved both series, but I had no idea about the "borrowing" from B5 like that! And for your interesting posts, I am now a subscriber. Thank you! Now I have to watch b5 again!
Do "Space: Above and Beyond"
Yes they plagiarize B5. But B5 is a really great show which i love and Star Trek fans got something different in DS9 series. I really love the ongoing relationship between G'Kar and Londo and how it evolved from utter hatred to friendship and respect.
Both had civil war story lines.
But in Babylon 5, Earth came across as far more believable because they lost the recent Earth/Minbari War and were always militant in trying to obtain more advanced technology so they'd never feel the burn of losing a war and coming so close to extinction ever again. The civil war developed because Earth in many ways was always a hidden dystopian state run by twisted peoples in the Government who ran the; Earth Alliance like a partial fascist regime behind closed doors!
Babylon 5 unlike Star Trek doesn't promise happy solutions to all the storylines, alot of it was dark and dreary true science fiction novela stuff you rarely see on television. whereas Star Trek follows Gene Roddenberry's altruistic vision of a more Utopian future for humanity. Where money and fortune are eliminated in Earth's 23th Century in Star Trek. In Babylon 5 however, money is still a blatant part of the human need for working and earning a livelihood. Which wouldn't realistically go away simply because a few centuries had passed by from the 20th century until the 23rd century etc!
Earth in the B5 universe are partially the bad guys (which isn't the case in Star Trek at all), where they run covert ops behind closed doors, have alliances with powerful alien regimes (The Shadows), allows a Psi-Corps to maintain control over telepaths regardless of reported inhuman actions sometimes. And are always trying to expand their EA influence, even if it brings them into conflict with others alien races or their; Martian 'Earth colonist' neighbors, both legally/illegally, or through political maneuverings. And so on!
I never found the Earth Alliance very believable for those reasons you listed.
For all their actions of the Earth Alliance, we never saw reactions. lets face it, all the things you listed cause a reaction. There are no one fighting the Psi. Corps. you think that they would be allowed to just do what they want? Civil rights groups suing the Psi. Corps in every court that exists on Earth just for existing. Bester's behavior, scanning people left and right would make him a walking lawsuit. The government can't just get rid of all the people fighting the Psi. Corps. it would be too messy. It is made more difficult because it is an alliance of nations. Even the Shadows can't do that and the Shadows did not come on the scene until after the Minbari War.
the same with the colonists, there would be someone presenting their plight to news and the courts. Even today the most despicable criminal can find someone to be their legal advocate. I don't see a secret cabal of individuals ever rising to control everything. Control a lot of everything maybe, but not everything and not without someone challenging that control. Whether bleeding heart liberals or just rivals, you will be challenged to hold that control. sooner or later you will fall.
As for Star Trek, it takes in the 24th century and it is a post scarcity society. That means that production of goods is so efficient and so cheap that the society can feed, clothe and provide homes for everyone without taxing the available resources. They replicator is a household appliance that can replicate any form of food or material. Anyone can replicate a hundred pounds of pure gold in the kitchen. it probably easier than food since Gold is a single element. We are heading that way with automation. What happens when all jobs are automated? In Star Trek, people work because they want to. There is probably a lot of social pressure to improve yourself or doing things that are appreciated by society.
We are social beings. When money is no longer valuable, we will need to find some form acknowledgement of our work. you are not going to hang out with the dude that stays home and replicates a meal while watching TV. You will probably hang out with the dude that decided to build a park for sick children. You would also do something because you will not want to go there and tell people that you do nothing.
Now I don't know if you saw DS9., but it was the show that the warts of the Federation appeared. The Federation's dirty trick squad called Section 31 appeared. they are the ones that does the Federation's dirty work and existed since the founding of the Federation. they assassinate foreign leaders and place puppets in foreign governments or steal valuable technology. They also committed an act of genocide against an enemy, the Founders, then the Federation council refused to provide the cure because they were at war with the Dominion. The last two seasons were about a war with the Dominion whom the Founders controlled. It was bloody and traumatic. Hundreds of millions of people killed. Starfleet used tactics that they would not use before. ect.
I saw DS9 and have already proudly said i watched it and liked it alongside Babylon 5. Sorry but you sound rather Star Trek bias whereas most fans of both can clearly say that B5 was the far more original series when it came down to execution mind you. DS9's Section 31 were just Babylon 5's Bureau 13, even if Bureau 13 was dropped due to legal issues with a board game that already existed copyright wise.
Babylon 5 exposition covered what wasn't seen on the show, so don't worry your concerns on what wasn't seen on the show was mentioned via dialogue or covered in the B5 books/comics and novelizations and even spin off series Crusade. DS9 itself didn't show us absolutely everything onscreen neither.
*The Federation's dirty trick squad called Section 31 appeared. they are the ones that does the Federation's dirty work and existed since the founding of the Federation.*
Again a matter of convenience considering DS9 copied Babylon 5, and hasn't previously alluded to a secret clandestined organization behind the scenes throughout its history from 1966 to the mid 90's until DS9 came on, so again B5 was far more original in showing that off about the B5 universe. Issues which were continued in Crusade TV series (the destruction of the EAS Cerberus the later Captain Gideon of the Excalibur still has issues overcoming) and so on.
*It was bloody and traumatic. Hundreds of millions of people killed. Starfleet used tactics that they would not use before. etc.*
I.e. non Star Trek style stories being made under Rick Berman and co during that period, pacifically only for DS9 though? Hmm certainly sounds like they lifted tons of ideas and concepts from JMS who's other sci-fi series was going on, at the same time doesn't it!!!
I'd highly recommend the Centauri trilogy of books by Peter David if you can find them (could be expensive now) as they wrap up Londo's storyline pretty satisfyingly. The third Telepath trilogy book does something a little similar for Bester, but more mixed quality.
I need the background on the show for it to feel real. One or two lines on a lawsuit against Psi Corps by some group on the newspaper that Sheridan was reading would have been enough. It was incomplete to me. That disappointed me. I loved B5, recorded every episode, but I found that something was missing. Most likely it was budget decisions, but it cost them. Yes, it is the same on DS9 but not as badly. They did go to Earth and Bajor on occasion. DS9 also had the advantage of an established universe. It is a point in storytelling that a creator must deal with regardless. I am not going spend hundreds of dollars on books or comics to get the story that the creator should have put on TV. There are a lot of things that DS9 could have done better, but they didn't. B5 did a great job exploring and developing their characters. There were characters in DS9 that could have been explored but the writers of DS9 never took a chance.
About JMS having his ideas and concepts stolen, maybe or maybe not. The funny thing about fiction. There are only a few stories that are original. There are many things that Babylon 5 that you can claim came from Star Trek. The Minbari are the Borg. The Earth Alliance is a group of sovereign states like the Federation. Going to the planetoid known as Babel for diplomatic conferences was an original Star Trek episode "journey to Babel". Babel is another name for Babylon. Small creatures attached to control the important members of government, I saw that in TNG episode "conspiracy". The only difference with the ones on B5 is that they were external. B5 even had their own version of the Trill. Are we going to accuse JMS of stealing ideas too? Although the plot of the pilot episode of B5 has a lot in common with the episode "Journey to Babel"... There only a number of paths that you can follow if you put a story on a space station. It is more likely that by basing a show in a space station forced them to follow certain similar paths. Also all science fiction have its cliches that just are part of science fiction. Both shows were totally different to the other even if they had the same foundation.
So glad you did this ─ _Thank you._
For sci fi fans wishing to check out *_Babylon B5,_* others have noted the problems with season 1. However, despite the problems, I recommend watching each episode [although, I would love a fan edit of _"Grey 17 is Missing"_ which cuts out everything with Garibaldi, beginning immediately after the doll "attack" fade out, and then keeping his meetup with Sheridan at the end]. The later payoff makes season 1 worthwhile (primarily in terms of character, but there are a few key plot seeds and such). Also, despite what I say below about the other TV movies, I would *start* the viewer's *B5* journey with the TV movie _"The Gathering,"_ which is actually the pilot (despite how difficult it might be to get through for some✱).
✱😴
Sadly, nowadays many may have issues with the special effects (which get much better as the show progresses and as one gets used to the "look"). But if one has grown up during the days when special effects were never all that great to begin with, or can see past such things when the story is engaging ─ such as with _Blake's 7_ or classic _Doctor Who_ ─ then I believe one has a chance of thoroughly enjoying *Babylon 5.*
Even though I recommend watching season 1, if I were to introduce someone to the show, what I would do is present only seasons 1─4. And _then_ jump to the very last episode of season 5, _"Sleeping in Light."_
Given the amount of good Sci-Fi that is available to us now from both the past to the present, I would stop at this point. However, if a *_Babylon 5_* fan has been created, I would continue by having them watch some of the movies, including _"In the Beginning."_ *I would not make that TV movie their introduction to the show.* Although, that might actually be a very good idea. It's just not how I watched it. It may be worth noting that going from the effects of _"In the Beginning"_ to those of season 1/ep 1. . .well, it might cause their brain to deflate like an old balloon. I would also exclude _"The Lost Tales"_ (for now).
After finishing with all of the TV movies, I would then give them the option to watch season 5, but I would insert _"The Lost Tales"_ before the final episode, _"Sleeping in Light."_
After all of that, I might -show them the synopsis for Legend of the Rangers- (never mind). If they enjoyed *_Babylon 5_* as much as I did, I would then follow up with the *_Crusade_* spin-off. After *_Crusade,_* I would have them read the unproduced *_Crusade_* scripts. I only have one that I printed out 20 years ago, but I can't find the other two that I had. And there's no way I can afford to buy even a single Edition of that series of script books etc. ─ as much as I would *love* to have the one which includes the *_Crusade_* plans. Anywizzle, then they could see just what an amazing missed opportunity *_Crusade_* really was.
Finally, if the individual becomes a fan and is scrambling for even _more,_ I would have them read these 2 canonical novels that were released: _"The Shadow Within"_ & _"To Dream in the City of Sorrows."_
I do wonder what it would be like to go through every bit of *B5* media I have available in chronological order (perhaps when I'm in my 90's I will try this). I imagine that would mean jumping from TV show, to novel, to TV movie to novel, etc.
*EDIT/ADDENDUM* 👉 I later realized I left out a few other things that might be treasured by a *B5* superfan ─ the Short Stories published in _"Amazing Stories Magazine,"_ which primarily provide epilogues for some of the favorite characters.
jms' official word is that if they copied it, he didn't care enough to pursue copyright infringement. The fact is that jms did go to Paramount with his ideas YEARS before WB/PTEN took it up. So the producers there at Paramount did have access to the premise/opening script.
Near the end of each show's second to last season, a primary character died and was replaced essentially with a new female character in the next season.
Tracy Scoggins!!! Terrible actress... legendary 1980's poster girl;-)
Terry Farrel left to care for her child...
Terry Farrell didn't get along with the cast, which was also a reason why she left. other rumors lead to something about sexual harassment shocking enough from Ira Steven Behr and Rick Berman its said.
scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/33913/why-was-jadzia-dax-written-out-of-star-trek-deep-space-nine-so-late
www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/525q85/terry_farrells_departure_has_anybody_else_heard/?st=jh8frb9w&sh=5ca4f868
The reason, though, was again, JMS wasn't sure he'd get the last season. He thought the "second to last season" could be the last season, and he wrapped up the basic story line arc.
Season 4 was kinda the last season with season 5 being a bit meh for me. It's mostly a lot of filler until the very end. They could have just made the last episode of season 5 the finale of 4
B5 smote DS9 into the dust.
Sinclair's girlfriend was Catherine Sakai; Sheridan rose from the dead--and then he died later; the Vorlons were almost as malicious and manipulative as the Shadows-Quite unlike the Pa Wraiths & the Prophets; thing is, the arc of B5 proved to be much more complex-people became heroes, villains and back; there was incredible growth for many of the characters. No I am not saying B5 & DS9 had similarities because, obviously, they did. However B5 took some unexpected twists & turns that DS9 chose not to follow or emulate.
OOPS...I shall correct it immediately. How'd I miss that? It's my mother's name.
I haven't watched DS9, so I can't comment on that. But I look forward to your covering B5! One of the best shows of all time. I came to it long after it ended. I don't know how I missed even hearing about it. I'm a huge TV watcher and have always known at least the names of shows, even if I didn't watch them!
Both shows bit stuff from 1930s sci-fi so no one should complain.
I have gone back to watch B5 for the 4th or 5th time since it aired, and it is interesting how "alien" it looked compared to ST, DS9 or any of the ST series, their aliens always looked like a guy with a mask, for some reason, B5, which was a bit cheesier looking and lacked the polish of the ST series, comes off as more alien and carried its mission better.
I never got to watch B5 when it originally aired. I watched DS9 as the DVDs were being released. I remember eagerly buy up each season as they were released. I finally went out of my way to watch B5 and love it so much! Though between the two I do love DS9 more, that's probably because there's so much more Star Trek universe behind it. But both are absolutely amazing shows!!
I remember a late season episode of B5 where two mechanics watch a space battle and talk about the explosions of the alien ships are green, thus lack oxygen. Such an amazing episode!! Whole show, both shows, are perfection!!
Plagiarize? That's a legal term that would be impossible to prove. But did Paramount take JMS' B5 bible, analyze it for a year, file the serial numbers off, and dump the concept in a Star Trek universe? Absolutely. Now, did it go it's own way "enough" to avoid the charge of direct copying? Probably. Just. But the people who try to claim DS9 wasn't a clone of B5 are simply uninformed. And that there were supposedly aware TV people who were calling Babylon 5 a "Star Trek spin-off" was infuriating, and I suspect done at Paramount's behest.
Well done. I've never heard of this conflict between the two shows. As you laid it out is certainly seems like you're right.
Ir'a fake this had been settled long ago. DS9 was based on the rifleman, a western frontier town with a sheriff. The original script was on a planet they even started shooting, but they ran into budget problems going on location all the time so they change the script to be on a station. Plus the paramount exec who pitch the idea wasn't working for paramount when B5 was pitched.
TentaclePentacle Stop spreading lies they were taken to court and they settle and even admitted it.
+Boricua Lion
Stop spreading lies, there was never a lawsuit, show me a link to an article saying there is a lawsuit. The lawsuit is nothing by fantasy in the minds of B5 fans.
TentaclePentacle There is a little thing called google look it up. Amazing how technology works. Btw I'm a fan of both star trek and Babylon 5 and even an 8 could see the influence or the almost outright ripoff in between season.
+Boricua Lion
google can't find what doesn't exist. Amazing how you can't provide a link, because it doesn't exist. This B5 DS9 beef was settled long again. There was never a lawsuit, even the accusation of Straczynski had been withdrawn long ago, that's why Majel Barrett even had a guest appearance on B5 to show that all was forgiven.
I love them both, but yes, DS9 took some B5 ideas.
* B5 is better in my opinion
Christopher Arndt That's okay, I still love ya
I'm sure B5 was inspired by the original Star Trek too. It's not "ripping them off". You think something like Star Wars or LOTR is completely made up? It's inspired by legends and myths but it's not "ripped off".
Paulafan5 I didn't think the sacred tree of Athens would mind being referenced and twisted slightly 4000 years later in a Tolkien novel or Budha's Light Vs Dark notions. It's a bit different going head to head with someone and trying to pass it off as "referencing", so much so a court of law calls it plagerism.
USS White star
There hasn't been in the last 30 years a sci-fi show better than BABYLON 5
Yep. This is the reason why they settled outside of court.
This 'borrowing' continued into Voyager. If you look at Species 8472 and the much earlier Shadows from B5 the similarities are overwhelming. They even look the same! Something I thought of the 1st time I saw 8472 on Voyager.
B5 star furry launch sequence is much, much cooler than DS9's run-about platform life!
I do like those bulkhead doors on DS9 thou.
I too am a fun of both shows, which have both aged well - better than say Voyager!
Patricia Tallman said that Babylon 5 and Deep Space 9 shot next to each other. This allowed her to end up working on both shows at the same time. She was an actress on Babylon 5 and a stunt double on Deep Space 9. It wouldn't be hard to cross pollinate ideas because of all those people right next to each other.
You forgot to mention that Majel Barret agreed to appear in B5 to try and settle fan disputes at the time :) And was made wife to the Centauri Emperor as a spiritual homage to the then deceased Gene Roddenberry.
I loved the 2 shows . B5 was way ahead of its time in story telling
You don't know what "ahead of time" means.
Both shows were great in both shows were my favorite honestly I can’t decide
I'm so glad both of these were made! Two of my favorite shows of all time!
Babylon 5 is one of my favourite sci-fi shows of all time but I still thoroughly enjoy DS9.
love both series but it was arrogant of paramount to rip off b5 so blatantly. b5 suffered from goofy looking aliens but their amazing storylines and amazing actors (specifically g'kar, londo) more than made up for it. i give a slight edge to b5.
I didn't see a single episode of B5. I didn't know it existed at the time and I loved DS9! The production was executed so well I'm glad it was around but that's some hot ass garbage they did that guy that way.
B5 was ahead of its time! Season long (even entire show) story arcs, had cgi special effects and it was also shot in widscreen when not many shows were! Such a shame they lost the cgi files so remastering is going to be time consuming! At least it was shot on 35mm film! Wish theyd do bluray edition with new fx like they did with Generations.
Looking forward to your B5 video. Will you also do one for BSG?
With all do respect to DS9 fans but I liked the show however, I love B5. It was so much better IMO.
WRATHofDESTRUCTION
I'll have to go back and watch both
I liked then both, but prefer DS9 better. I was more interested in DS9 because it forced the Federation ideals to be questioned. B5 people are like they are today and they raise to the occasion to be greater. the Federation was already a great ideal civilization, so what will you do to protect it? I found those questions more interesting.
That is perfectly fine, some people just prefer the taste of shit.
B5 is my favorite sci-fi (along with SG-SG1 and The Expanse) But, I'm binge-watching both B5 and ST:DS9 at the moment :)
Most people don't remember that Seaquest DSV came out around this time and was derivative of all of it at once. At my house, we called it, "Sea Trek Deep Sea 9"
Sheridan and Sisco both were baseball fans, and were survivors of a war with a seemingly unbeatable foe.