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Is Gul Dukat Actually a Hero?
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- Опубликовано: 6 фев 2018
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this analyses reminds me of a great quote from the subject itself:
"A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness." -Gul Dukat
I literally can remember no other line from a villain in any other media as well as that one!
That line right there lives rent free in my mind
Dukat's daughter's death caused a temporary psychological break. At this point, Dukat decides to give up on trying to make himself look good, and gives in to the evil side. The key line for me is in a discussion between Weyun and Dukat: "You have to make them see that they were wrong to oppose you in the first place." It shows that he's always concerned with convincing people, and not the genuine truth.
I think his daughter's death is a watershed moment. She was the one factor that could've awakened his conscience and turned his pretense of respectability into genuine disinterested virtue...or perhaps I grasp at straws. Anyhow, once she was dead, there was essentially nothing that would awaken any latent goodness.
Agreed when zial died, there was no longer any way to redeem dukat
@@travcollier Nearly any Cardassians image of themselves, through the series we kind of come to understand the Cardassian mindset, they're essentially fascist for the most part...even their most lauded artistic works (like Garak's book he lends to Bashir, the Neverending Sacrifice) paints the greatest trait in their eyes as subservience to the state first and foremost. They are actually very comparable in some ways to another franchise's species, the Turian's from Mass Effect. The main difference is in their moral shading, where the Turians are largely friendly for the most part, they have all the "militaristic subservience to the state" qualities in spades. If sacrificing your son to get the job done is the only option, they'll do it readily. The Cardassians though have a much more expansionist, colonial bent along with that where the Turians are a bit more friendly pragmatist who want the military power, but more to defend than expand.
There's exceptions in both cases of course. It should also be noted, if memory serves, the real break that happens with Dukat, that episode of him and Sisko on the planet alone where he's hallucinating, comes almost immediately after Ziyal dying. In fact, I could be wrong, but I think it's literally the next time we see Dukat...he's being taken in for trial or something after they find him when they retake DS9, in that episode he's weeping in a corner and talking to Ziyal who's dead. It's AFTER that he returns as the leader of a cult on...Empok Nor is it? Worshiping the Pah Wraiths...we next see him aiming to free the Wraiths and he really seems entirely disinterested in what's happening on Cardassia...I think he uses it as an excuse to get what he needs from them, but he kind of leaves things in Damar's hands because he's got better things to do in a sense. I really think it was Ziyal who kind of kept him tethered to things, once she died he very quickly got consumed by his shadow...
One of favorite lines in the entire series.
"It shows that he's always concerned with convincing people, and not the genuine truth."
I would disagree: I think in Dukat's mind, his point of view and genuine truth are interchangeable: "Cardassians don't make mistakes". His only concern is convincing people because he never reflects on his actions or motivations. He's convinced he doesn't need to. When he does, like in Duet, he's forced to face the trail of destruction and broken lives he's blazed and it breaks him.
only Marc Alaimo could have pulled off this character. a true testament to his acting.
Indeed, my fellow Bane. Indeed.
he was acting? im pretty sure thats him just wearing makeup and prosthetics.
@@plewtz80 if you've seen him in the documentary, you're right, he's an absolute creep.
He was intense!
this reminds me of a great post i saw on tumblr, written by gorncaptains:
"I can't get over the fact that in Waltz Dukat tenderly nursed Sisko back
to health and cooked for him while Sisko critiqued it with the funniest
fucking odd couple dynamic and I know in Dukats mind it was a 50,000+
word stranded on a deserted planet, enemies to friends to lovers fic and
in Sisko's mind it was pure unadulterated hell"
so damn true lmao
Exactly. Dukat lived stories in real life, where he was always the hero. Later he embraced the role of villain. But he was always the most important character.
That's it. That's the episode. Dukat thinks he's in a slow burn Enemies to Lovers fic but in actually he's in an episode of Deep Space nine
Lieutenant Worf: [referring to Admiral Satie] I believed her. I, I helped her. I did not see what she was.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Mister Worf, villains who twirl their moustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well camouflaged.
Lieutenant Worf: I think... after yesterday, people will not be so ready to trust her.
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Maybe. But she, or someone like her, will always be with us, waiting for the right climate in which to flourish, spreading fear in the name of righteousness. Vigilance, Mister Worf - that is the price we have to continually pay.
Well cited
I was about to type the very same quote until I scrolled down and saw it. Well said.
I watched that episode last night and just saw your comment.
Such good dialogue
@@Shadowfire204 i saw it recently aswell
Garek was more of a redemption story than Dukat. Simply because he redeemed himself because it was the right thing, not to impress anyone or get approval, unlike Dukat. Because Dukat was looking for approval, that makes his redemption impure.
I thinks Garak and Dukat are opposites. Dukat lied and gaslit people about his evil. He never wanted redemption because he never truly saw his actions as wrong.
Garak never once shows anything but total knowledge that what he's done are terrible things. Even if they were done for something that he felt justified them in the end, he still acknowledges what he had to do while remaining realistic about what kind of person it makes him.
Lies and slander. Garak is a simple tailor, nothing more.
Garek was great, a man who knew what he was and was realistic and even having mental breakdown about having to fight Cardassians to save Cardassia but lets not forget the other Cardassian Redemption story. Damar was one of the more interesting characters in my opinion. He came about it slowly but surely first becoming disillusioned about what the dominion was doing to Cardassia and just falling into a drunken depression, then deciding to lead a rebellion against the Dominion to bring back the GREAT CARDASSIA OF THE PAST, then finally accepting that the old Cardassia was just wrong and should be allowed to die so a new Cardassia could rise in it's place, and to think that when he was introduced he was just a Dukat lackey.
I think Damar shouldered the burden of attempting to redeem Dukat. Or at least, Dukat's rule of Bajor. It was only at the very end, when his own family had been exterminated by the Dominion, that he understood what the Cardassians had done during the occupation. From that point, he became a better person, able to put his animosity to Kira aside in order to help his people. He might have brought true peace to Cardassia and Bajor's relations, had he lived.
@@michaeldougherty6036 And that was the moment when I thought these writers can deliver anything to me. They made me even fall for 'Dukat's job replacement with the alcohol problem'. I bow to Damar. He was a hero.
Dukat is a grandiose narcissist who is a legend in his own mind. He is blithely unaware of his own villainy, which is typical of pathological narcissists. He warps every situation in his mind to justify whatever actions he takes.
Delusional and narcissist would almost be a dead ringer for Hitler if wasn't for the fact that Hitler was a know drug addict.
Frances Drew yeah ... I don't mean to be political in real life but Gul Dukat is Donald Trump in many ways ...both a nihilist and a textbook narcissist.
Francis Drew- You say that like it is a BAD thing... ;)
@@phibbrizzo drug addicts can be narcissistic, it's just that the reasons for drug addiction aren't usually narcissistic. Certain substances can easily promote narcissism, cocaine immediately springs to mind.
@@rodferguson3515 Except Dukat is smart and charismatic.
I see Dukat as someone struggling to convince himself, and others, that he actually IS a good person. He doesn't want to face what he is or what he's done. He can't acknowledge what he knows deep inside: that he's done truly horrible things. That's why he can't truly cross the bridge to redemption.
Unable to face and conquer his demons, Dukat seeks out the validation of others to make those nagging voices go away. This is a consistent character trait throughout his run; his quest for redemption is in finding others who will praise the fiction of what he wishes he could be.
I see his final arc as the ultimate result of that internal turmoil. He drives HIMSELF to madness through his desire to be a "hero" and finally justify himself. In doing so, he removes the mask and exposes the fragile ego and unstable man beneath it. In his desire to destroy and remake the galaxy, he seeks to literally burn away his sins and all evidence of them.
He is an evil man who COULD, if he looked inward, find a path to the light. He remains a villain precisely because he can't bring himself to face his own darkness. He is a warning of how far WE might fall if we refuse to cope with and atone for our misdeeds. That's why he's such a great villain in the first place.
I agree with you. One of the things that DS9 was good at was stringing along the viewer with the possibility that Dukat might be redeemed in some fashion for quite sometime. What is interesting is how the decision that is more or less irrevocable by Dukat that makes redemption virtually impossible for Dukat is kept hidden from the viewer. What I mean is Dukat's decision for Cardassia to become part of the Dominion. We can only be partly sure of the reasons and we were not given a clear view of how Dukat arrived at the decision. But however Dukat reasoned it out it made his descent to the darkside became then more or less irrevocable.
@@makinapacal I like to think that Weyoun offered Dukat the same thing he offered Sisko in their first meeting - but Dukat took it, while Sisko said "obviously your psychological profile of me isn't as accurate as you thought". After all, Dukat wasn't exactly in a position of high power in the Cardassian government when he was involved in those talks, this wasn't a peaceful handing-over of power - he _conspired with the Dominion_ to seize power from the democratically elected government Cardassia had for a couple of years.
@CommandoDude
"and proved that true redemption requires great personal sacrifice."
I disagree, redemption only requires the honest willingness for great personal sacrifice. As a comical example if a former racist spends the rest of his live jumping in between a people he used to hate and gunman taking aim at them, he'll eventually redeem himself even if all the guns misfire and he never actually sacrifices anything.
PERFECT! That's a perfect description of the Dukat character to a T! To him, it was all about the ego, how he saw himself & how he wanted others to see him.
VisibleSigns brilliantly said. I fully agree
Dukat is the only textbook psychopath I know of who's really fascinating to watch. Kudos to the DS9 writers and to Marc Alaimo for creating this amazing character!
I still would throw in there are only 4 lights as a contender.
true, im not the greatest fan of ds9 but man, this one man, I hate him but in a good way.
I think people forget that character development doesn't always have to be positive development. Gul Dukat did develop as a character, he just developed into more of a villain.
No, he was always a man who felt like he was the hero of his own story who circumstances always proved to be a man out for solely his own gain. He was "kind" to the Bajoran's because he wanted their love. He fetishized Bajoran women because he could have their adoration with a small amount of good treatment. He sold out his people to be lap dogs of the Dominion not because it was what was best for Cardassia but because it was what was best for Dukat.
Dukat wasn't a man we saw degenerate morally. He was a bad man who we saw demonstrate his true character.
Dukat is a mix of several high-ranking Nazis who actually existed.
He has a "silver tongue" like Joseph Goebbels and the same attitude towards Cardassia as Goebbels had to "Germania".
Goebbels also considered himself to be a hero.
Heinrich Himmler was obsessed with occultism. He tried to communicate with his "Aryan ancestors" and thought of himself as reincarnation of an old Saxon king. ( Pah-Wraiths, anyone? )
And there were several officers in charge of concentration camps who had Jewish mistresses in there and some of them even had children with them.
@@hackman669 Are you just now seeing this allegory? DS9 practically clobbers us with it (and it is well welcomed lol). The Bajorans are an ancient, religious culture, scattered and treated like outcasts before returning to ancestral home after brutal mistreatment. The nation that oppresses them is a militaristic, and fascistic (in the sense of a authoritarian populist right-wing government run by political or military parties), with a very family or clan orientated communal culture analogous to some of the cultural ideas about "germanism" that the Nazi's had, and sees their race (and some other more powerful and relatively culturally similar races) as superior to the Bajorans. The Cardassians are also depicted as having concentration camps (and killing lots of Bajorans) and having "collaborators" among the Bajorans, who are later tried just like some people in countries occupied by the Nazis were tried for supporting them.
That being said, the actual relationship between the Cardassians and Bajorans (and the Maqui, for that matter) itself is most often also portrayed consistently as colonialist abuse and land grabs/forced resettlement by private groups but tacitly allowed by the government. Which arguably describes the *Israeli* occupation of lands historically belonging to Palestinians...lol, but that's another story...
Funny you're saying this, he actually reminds me a bit of Amon Goeth in Schindler's List, who did have a Jewish mistress. The reason why Dukat is attracted to especially Meru seems to be the same as the one for which Goeth is attracted to Helene Hirsch...And Oscar Schindler also cleverly feeds into Goeth's desire to appear as a basically good and merciful person by telling him what a truly merciful person would do. Both characters also seem to be hugely vain people - I am not sure whether this is also true for the actual Goeth but it certainly is the way the character was described in the movie Schindler's list.
Don't even go outside Star Trek. Dukat was heading towards Kodos style evil.
@@christianealshut1123 Helen hersh, the woman who was depicted in Schindler's list as amon goeths move interest has said that goeth never had any sexual feelings toward her that she was aware of.
Helen said that he would abuse her physically though for small infractions and she was terrified of him.
By all accounts of goeth that I have come across he did not have any Jewish mistresses and absolutely hated the Jewish race.
@@Ellimist000 well said. Star trek voyager also has an episode where a cardassian doctor is introduced as a hologram figure, and long story short, he was performing experiments on bajoran patients while they were fully conscience. My first thought was mingle
And the federation still deals with them in one way or another...
The short version: Dukat could have slaughtered everyone on Bajor. The fact that he didn't murder everyone makes Ducat a hero... in Ducat's calculus. Crucially, if he killed everyone, Dukat could not play "master of the universe" where he spends all day every day arbitrarily deciding the fate of everyone.
Agreed. Just like Kylo Ren, Dukat is, above all, selfish.
Calling dukat a hero (who is a mass murderer and war criminal) is akin to saying “hitler made sure not all the Jews were killed in Europe”
At least spell his name right - consistently. His name is in the video title!!!!!!!! It's Dukat, not Ducat... It's like spelling Spock, Spook. Or Star Trek, Star Track...
@@Locutus exactly...or calling data "data" instead of data!!
I am also a good guy...
I didn't kill my brother, nor my sister. Every day I am not killing my students...
I am basically a saint...
Dukat was a charming, intelligent, suave, confident man.
Just as you'd expect someone would have to be to climb up into the high echelons of power.
He was also a ruthless, murderous, Machiavellian manipulator, who used his power not just for Cardassia but also for his own private gain.
His fetishisation of Bjorain woman, using those woman for himself and as 'gifts' to his officers. Knowing that all it would take is the promise of say medicine, or food for the families of those woman, to keep them in check.
His obsession with Kira (and his borderline stalker behaviour toward her) were the reason he showed any sympathy toward his daughter. If Kira wasn't there at the rescue, he would have killed her on sight (and probably any one else deemed unvaluable to him).
He was a fantastic character. One of my favourites, from one of my favourite shows. Showing that no one, not even mass murderers, think of themselves as evil.
The idea that anyone would think him a 'Good' man, or a redeemable man, makes me rather nauseous.
It is the same as some people were bewitched by Nazi leaders.
Keep in mind that Marc Alaimo actually did think that Gul Ducat was one of the heroes of the show. The writers were aware of Alaimo's belief and didn't say anything because they thought it improved his performance of the character. Reportedly he was very upset toward the end of the series when the writers started having his character perform increasingly evil acts.
while he did show is daughter more sympathy because of kira was present, he would still not have killed her, the Cardasians have a strong cultural bond to family and thus any notion of a Cardasian officer killing their' own flesh and blood was the end of that Cardasians career, and life
Completely agree.
And I can't see how anyone could think anything else... he is CLEARLY a villain.
I mean, have those people never met someone who seemed nice first but turned out to be an asshole?
I can even recall some cases, where I met someone at a party who seemed perfectly nice at first but then turned out to be extremely racist Neo-Nazis.
Not Space-Nazis, but regular Nazis. ;)
Up until a certain point I did consider him redeemable. In retrospect I do agree it was silly.
I think Quark says it best, "No one thinks of themselves as the villain." I believe Dukat was doing what he thought was best. Just because he doesn't realize he's a monster does make him not a monster. While I think he did some good, he did more evil.
He exposed Kai Wynn. That was good!
Quark's my favorite character on DS9...in a way he's the opposite of Gul Dukat, he presents himself as greedy, selfish, and conniving...which are all kind of true on the surface...but as his character evolves, he's revealed to be dependable, insightful, and wise in his own way...i can't remember the context, but there's this scene where he says something along the lines of "The federation is horrible and insidious, these self righteous freaks who keep plugging away at you until you start realizing you're becoming just like them. Disgusting!"
When you rewatch it in context, every seemingly decent thing he does he only does because he doesn't have power. Steve doesn't mention this in the video, but alongside the Federation and the new Bajoran government, Dukat is massively invested in convincing the Council that banishing him is a mistake. It wasn't his fault, in his mind, he was forced to carry out orders that were over amplified by overzealous underlings.
As sentient beings, we either do decent things because we want to see others happy, or we do them for gratification, as a trade-off. People with narcissistic tendencies, even non-psychopaths, have a complex depiction of others and themselves in their minds. They don't view the constant seeking of approval and gratification as a bad thing because due to the aforementioned transactional nature they think whenever somebody else gets praised, they gamed the system. The thought cannot and does not enter their mind that others don't constantly harangue those around them. Whenever somebody who's being praised is in a conflict with the appraiser, they don't think it's merely a confrontation, but something to exploit. My father is one such individual, when I was 6 and my brother were 4 he bemoaned while our growing bodies get more food (we were working poor at the time).
How petty has an individual has to be that they're jealous of their own children getting affection, love and attention? One of my friends praises my father for advising him to get a GED and create a better life, and to the best of my knowledge, my old man didn't want anything in return, except, of course, for being admired to doing a decent thing.
As a father myself, I find it strangely offensive that 'not murdering your own child' could be a redeeming quality.
When grading good vs evil, that "quality" will net you zero points.
As someone who would never conceive of having a child; I find it strangely offensive that 'not murdering your own child' could be a redeeming quality.
@slashandbones13
There are certin actions that are simply not an option if your a decent human (or alien) being, harming your children in any way is one of them. You don't get points for being a good father because you didnt beat your children it's a standard.... an expectation to placed upon anyone that would be concidered a decent parent. and as Steve said in the video while Dukat did do some justice to his daughter, it was never REALLY about her well being, it was about what she could do for HIS well being. Dukat never owned being a parent to his daughter as he continued using her to the end.
you sure about that ? Is it Dukat needs to show off to Kira for an elaborate scheme to get into her pants in the future ?
Didn't kill my cat today, so I must be a great guy. Right? Didn't run my neighbor over with my car, too. I'm so swell! No, that bullshit wouldn't fly with most people. So why does Dukat get a pass for it? Anyone want to answer that one?
In their society he and his family would be stripped of everything and his daughter would be an outcast in both worlds. Most likely killed. It could be argued he was making the hardest choice of a father. Killing her would spare her a cruel life in which her death would be painful, and he was protecting his wife who didn't deserve what was going to happen to her.
Wish I could like this video more than once. Thank you for underscoring the power dynamics inherent in his various “relationships” with Bajoran women. It’s disturbing how often people don’t get that.
Dukat was a fantastic character and a total sociopath. The fact that so many people irl were taken in by him is a testament to how brilliantly written and portrayed the character was. You got got fam. Hope you find that appropriately chilling.
Dukat was a psychopath by human
standards However, Dukat isn’t human! Also, are Psyhopaths evil? a psychopath is a manipulative person who has little to no feeling. Clearly he has feelings for his daughter and those feelings caused a “human” psychotic break when she was murdered.
You can like this video more than once... Just create a new account, and you can like it more than once... It's that simple. Why do people say they can't like a video more than once, when they can...?
That was about the easiest part to understand about Dukat. “How often people don’t get that” 🤣 who do you talk to who don’t? Kids?
@@lord_haven1114Much of humanity will always disappoint you
I think the DS9 writers missed a real opportunity with the Ziyal. Since it was established that Kira’s mother was Dukat’s consort, they should have made her Kira’s sister. How awesome would that have been?
It certainly would've made the relationship between Damar and Kira more fraught with tension. Imagine having to work with the man who killed your half-sister because he's the only hope to sabotage a key foothold (Cardassia) from an overwhelming foreign power.
I think on one level, Kira's feelings for Ziyal were like those for a younger sister, and on a personal level, the younger woman's fate made her aware of the ethical mess that the occupation had created - Ziyal was probably not the only Cardassian/Bajoran hybrid born, and those children were not fully accepted on neither Cardassia nor Bajor (similarly to "Children of the Dust", the children of Vietnamese women and American soldiers during the Vietnam War). The fate of Ziyal, who experiences that discrimination first-hand when living on Bajor, makes Kira aware that her people's way of dealing with the aftermath of the occupation is not entirely marked by kindness, which she sees as an injustice because these children had no hand and no fault in being created. So Kira makes a point of interacting differently with her.
But coming to think of the fact that Dukat did have relationships with two Bajoran women - the relationships with Kira's mother and Naprem (Ziyal's mother) must have partly overlapped , i.e. that he was still involved with one while already being involved with the other. We know from another episode that Kira's mother stayed with Dukat as his mistress long after she had been a comfort woman (essentially a prostitute serving the occupants) because she knew she would not be accepted by her own people any longer. Dukat may already have been involved with Ziyal's mother at this point, or he may have started the relationship with Kira's mother while still being with Naprem (who, by this time, may have been conveniently stashed away elsewhere). At any rate that man was a pro at compartmentalising his relationships.
A bit over the top. But would have been a great story arch.
@@christianealshut1123 you used the perfect word to describe how dukat treated his women... compartmentalize..the word even sounds sterile.
I remember dukat had a cardassian wife, who birthed his legitimate children..so not only did he have more then one bajoran mistress during the occupation, women who gave birth to at least one of his kids..he had an entire other "real" life back on cardassia!!
I don't think that the relationships overlapped very close. Ziyal is younger then kira, it seems like by at least ten years.
Kiras mom would have been dead by the time ziyal was born just judging by her age and what I guess is kiras age.
Kira had to have been around 12 or 13 when her mother died.
Of course now I have to google this and see if there is anything online to make sense of the madness!!! Lol
This would have made Dukat even more disgusting because he was clearly sexually interested in Kira, so he'd be trying to have a sexual relationship with his daughter's sister.
Gul Dukat is one of the best villains of all time. Through the show you see his entire character change so much, but you see why he changes and how his character evolves. And through it all Dukat is able to rationalize everything. That is what makes him a villain.
Charles Dance once said of Tywin Lannister, "he is a man of principle, just not necessarily the principles of you and I". An assessment which could quite easily be made of Dukat as well.
The William the bloody/Spike effect: The actor makes the "disposable villian" so popular that fan would riot if they are killed off.
Waltz definitely isn't a retcon, it's a character developing due to events that happen within the show. This is Dukat breaking down completely and discarding all semblance of civility after the death of his daughter. It's him using Bajor as a scapegoat for him having put her in harm's way and then failing to protect her. Whether or not he already believed that Bajorans really are inferior and deserve to be massacred (which he probably did), he believes it *now* because of what happened to his daughter (even though Bajorans didn't actually kill his daughter), and he's no longer going to pretend otherwise. He goes from an abuser who wants the abused to love him so that he can go on abusing them, to wanting plain and simple revenge for a crime that the abused didn't actually commit.
Dukat works so well because he *believes* that he is doing right, even though he so obviously isn't.
it is also after this point his goals shift from acquiring power in order to Rule to bringing down Sisko becoming his overriding motive. So, of course, he would turn to the Pah'wraiths as he sees the connection of Sisko to the Prophets and needs something to counter that which is the Pah'Wriaths after all else has failed.
@@lordomacron3719 And it makes sense that he would seek out the Pah'wraiths, because his unique relationship with the Bajorans and the Federation would have given him enough knowledge to figure out that that would be a possible mean of hurting both parties.
I believe the Pah-Wraiths chose him, and that they were the hallucinations who started tormenting him after the death of Ziyal. They keep trying to convince Dukat to kill Sisko and they agree and support his epiphany that Bajor should have been destroyed.
Ziyal's death was painful for Dukat, only because of his selfishness. Dukat, only loved himself. He needed Ziyal. She accepted him, loved him, and initially believed that there was goodness in him. And yet Dukat has always expected this from Bajoran's. From the beginning, he was obsessed with them. Ziyal, was needed by him, too, to convince the Bajoran's that the Dukat was good and they should worship him. And he only wanted revenge because his ego had suffered. He had lost the only person who loved him, and at first she had deluded herself that he was good. Ducat needed Ziyal, just like Kira and Bajoran's - only because of his selfishness. After his defeat, when the Dominion forces did not arrive, the victory he was sure had slipped from his hands, he lost the Ziyal he needed. He did not love his daughter just as he did not love Cardasia, Bajor or Kira. He only loved himself.
"One man's villain is another man's hero, and by the way, they're building me a monument." I wonder if it's a wall.
It's interesting the dichotomy between DS9's main villain, Gul Dukat and TNG's main villain, Q. Both characters appear frequently on their respective shows (including both the pilot and finale of both). But, where Dukat came off as multifaceted in the beginning of the series and then into a moustache-twirler in the end; Q starts as a 1-dimensional antagonist in "Encounter at Farpoint" and then as a multilayered, almost guide figure in "All Good Things...". Indeed their arcs are almost converse. There are hints of complexity in Q early on in the series and pure evil in Dukat early in the series. In fact, while Dukat had "Waltz" as his turning point episode in season 6 of DS9, Q had "Deja Q" in season 3 of TNG. When the Enterprise crew protect him and show him mercy, Q has a sort of change of heart and becomes an almost ally with a dark edge (in fact, Q might be the only character on TNG with an honest-to-goodness show arc on the show). They don't make rich antagonists like Q and Dukat on Trek anymore.
Not just Sisko's respect, but Bajor's as well.His relationship with Kira Nerys embodies that.
I wouldn't really say Q was a major villain in TNG. He was only in something like 9? episodes and they don't even form much of a of plot arc.
Never really thought of Q as a villain, per se. Everything he ever did to Picard's crew, even truly bad things (Q Who) always seemed to have a goal: getting humanity to look at itself, acknowledge their faults and limitations, and try to grow beyond them.
And as for the "stinker" comment? Sorry, but I loved Q. He was a complete ass, and hilarious about it.
Tolland Q is an omniscient being whose perspective varies differently from other sentient beings; there is no good and evil in his mind as the concept is outdated to his people. Dukat sees most of his actions as benevolent or at least with good intentions, plus he could be said to be a typical Cardassian so his personality is not that unique in a sense
That stinker comment applies more to Lwaxana Troi, if you ask me. And I LIKE Lwaxana Troi.
It should also e noted that the one reason he snapped in Waltz (or at least showed clear signs of mental shattering) is because of the death of his daughter Ziyal a few episodes prior, during the Retaking of DS9. Where Dukat wanted to take Ziyal along as they were leaving, but Ziyal refuses and is shot by Damar. Dukat is shown shown in total psychological trauma in the end, as he's cowering in a holding cell, gazing into the distances and speaking comforting words to Ziyal (who is dead anyway). His daughter (no matter how you mince it, by that time, he really saw her as HIS daughter, not just a tool) got murdered by his trusted friend and direct second-in-command. That made him snap, made him go completely nuts in Waltz, where basically his whole world crumbled and his mental character got unravelled. That made him give up on his elegant dreams and focus on wiping out all those who dared questioning him. Yet he retained sufficient bravado and eloquence to still found a Cult of the Pah Wraiths in "Covenant" (where he fostered another Bajoran-Cardassian baby, btw...)
Oh, it should also be noted that apparently, Cardassians are roughnecks anyway when it comes to relationships. Remember that episode where the Defiant is used by 3 female Cardassians to test some theory? Miles was to help one of them and got repeatedly annoyed by her behaviour and she became more and more attracted. Until it all came down to them being in a Jeffries tube, recalibrating some stuff and she basically proposes to him and they realise that this is the typical Cardassian way of courting; irritating the other. (sidenote: Kira was always irritated by Dukat. Guess why he was so enarmoured by her....)
Funnily, this is lampshaded by Garaks attraction towards Ziyal. Garak does is very best to be nice to Ziyal (being kind, inviting her to a hot-stone session in the holodeck, etc), to not irritate her in order to get her to like him more. Which, ironically, does irritate her and make her like him more..... Garak is acting more like a Bajoran for that matter, while Ziyal, a half-Bajoran, acts out her Cardassian side.
Point being; if they base affection on irritation, I don't want to know, how fierce they get during intercourse (less rough than the Klingons I bet, judging how Worf, and his mates Jadzia and K'Ehleyr usually looked)
The Dukat needed Ziyal. First, to get closer to Kira, second, to gain Bajoran's approval - all the time, he is sorry that they underestimated him. Third - Zyial, she was the only person who loved him and initially, it seemed to her that Dukat was not so bad that he wanted to change, redeem his sins. Ziyal gave him what he was still striving for - acceptance, recognition that he was good, love. Dukat has always been about that. He let his daughter live because he had an interest in it. He needed her and she was the only person who loved him, believed that maybe there was good in him. As for Ziyal and Garak, she was after him. It was she who invited him to "share the warmth" of stones. It was Ziyal who invited him to meet and talk. She was fascinated by him. Garak knew he had a lot on his conscience and didn't understand why Ziyal loved him. For starters, he was afraid that Ziyal wanted to kill him because he knew she had reasons. When he confirmed what he had done to her grandfather, Ziyal said she didn't care. Only his self-criticism irritated her. Garak was kind to her as he was to everyone, but he made no effort to win her sympathy. He did not think he deserved the love of Ziyal and, in fact, tried to discourage her. Meetings, conversations, showing love resulted from her initiative. Garak only agreed to it. It is only towards the end of her life that Garak begins to show a bit of love back to her. Though he still doesn't understand her feelings for himself.
Dukat is awesome! Better than Khan, actually. But yeah, he's a monster.
khan is never the villain! he is the only true hero in the star trek universe
Khan made no bones about his intentions. He was a bad guy and was proud. Because of his genetics was edited, he felt him and his kind were superior and made sure everyone knew it. Dukat was more insidious and a liar. he not only lied to others for years, but up until Waltz, he was lying to himself. He was a mass murderer, a rapist, and a despot. He tore family's apart, much like he did to the Kira Family when he took Kira Meru from her family just so she can be his comfort woman. Also he was pretty sick since he tried to fuck Meru's daughter, Nerys.
Oh Gods, imagine putting Khan and Dukat in the same room. I don't know if the universe could take that much concentrated ego and ambition all in one place
@daro2096 better than Khan? That's a bit far-fetched...
"Waltz" is one of my favorite DS9 episodes! I love how Dukat's rivalry with Sisko, which up to that point had mostly been tensions and indirect insults, finally comes to a head and they really say what they feel about each other by the end. And it's an extremely well-written case of a recurring character 'going crazy', as we get to see or hear all of Dukat's trauma leading up to that point that causes his hallucinations and unhingedness, not the least of which was the death of his daughter, in front of his own eyes by someone he thought he could trust. And sure, the pah-wraith plot after that is a little strange, and personally I think the payoff in the series finale could've used some work, but "Waltz" in particular was a great step for his character to take.
In the late 1700s, Friedrich Schiller explained why the bad guy in one of his works ("The Robbers") was portrayed as so charming: because we need to be on the lookout for tigers, and not be distracted by their beauty. And here in the real world, EVERYONE can be kind to their own; even a villain can be kind to their mother and their dog. It proves nothing.
The thing about Dukat is that even when the episode was trying to sell him as charming, it never really connected, even with Alaimo's charm. They'd done too good a job making him look vile. Any viewer that somehow missed the disgust the other characters directed toward him, across the show's entire history, should have been pulled up short by "Sons and Daughters", which makes it clear that Kira feels one of her biggest failings in life was humoring him for Ziyal's sake.
Oh, the shark, babe, has such teeth, dear
And it shows them pearly white
Just a jackknife has old MacHeath, babe
And he keeps it, ah, out of sight
Ya know when that shark bites with his teeth, babe
Scarlet billows start to spread
Fancy gloves, oh, wears old MacHeath, babe
So there's never, never a trace of red
And yet, people who see Dukat as a full-on villain are the same people who are complete Walter White apologists or who see the Dexter as troubled, but ultimately good.
He does do rather a lot of gaslighting, doesn't he? I'm re-watching the series on Netflix right now and noticed it in the Season 2 episode "Cardassians" that he was surprisingly at ease with rationalizing the fact that he was the one who gave the order to abandon the children on Bajor during the evacuation. Other characters on the show even pointed out that the excuse he gave was pretty thin and that he was using Rugal as a weapon against a political enemy....
That's not "gaslighting", but certainly he's offering up thin rationalizations that are still just substantial enough to fool anyone looking to be fooled (including himself). ("Gaslighting" is doing a thing and then saying you're not doing it at all, and putting the other person in a spot where they start questioning the evidence of their own senses. Dukat never denied doing the things he's accused of, he just insisted that he was justified in doing so.)
@@kingbeauregard That example given does not exactly qualify, but there are many situations when he gaslights Kira about how much she likes him, as well as manipulating events so that they keep "just happening" to have to go on missions together, alone. He also keeps lying about his intentions and motives and actions to Ziyal, who demonstrates that exact wondering whether it really happened in the run-up to her death. (This is by no means the only thing or even an emblematic event, but the dress he buys for Kira who then rejects it, he immediately switches tracks to it always having been intended as a gift for Ziyal. He's willing to lie and rewrite history on a whim, to try and make himself look better, in almost all of his appearances. She didn't know Kira had been offered it first, but even if she had, Dukat would almost have certainly still tried to insist it was meant to be hers all along.)
I don't know if you can call it "gaslighting" when only his daughter ever seems to believe him, and even she figures things out pretty quickly. What I find baffling is that anyone who watched _Deep Space Nine_ would be convinced by a villain's apologias, when they're mostly written to demonstrate how disgusting and petty he seems to the heroes. It seems so absurd to me that I suppose part of me, deep down, thinks no one could possibly be that tone-deaf to dramatic cues.
Interestingly enough, his decision to abandon war orphans and that of not pure Cardassian heritage doesn't come from Nazis, but the Japanese. They left a ton of children in China whom nobody wanted and even those who made it to Japan were socially stigmatized. Grave of the Fireflies is super sketchy in omitting details, depicting only local civilians as victims. The sad truth is that beyond the appealing "we are now peaceful, our military leaders deceived us" veneer, many war orphans were subject to abuse. They were blamed as the partial cause for losing the war or not being born in Japan.
A key element in jingoistic fascism is that you're a highly valued member of society, allegedly for your language and culture, and ethnicity, but dare to question those in power, suddenly you're not following preset values make you an enemy of the state. Symptoms include legendizing the siege or defense of an object accrued under less than honorable circumstances (Alamo comes to mind), painting lost wars and internal conflicts as foreign interventions to shift and/or avoid local blame. Then there's empathy with any kind of minority, that's also a crime in the jingoistic wonderland.
“Waltz” is honestly my favorite Dukat episode. After the build up of the last several seasons, I felt that it was a perfect way to wrap up his story. Finally accepting who he is. Beautiful
He is to Star Trek Deep Space Nine as System Lord Baal was to Stargate! An Excellently charismatic villian!
Yes!!! I didn't think of that!!
Holy crap!!! I've watched DS9 all the way through at least 8 times and I really did never notice that Tora Ziyal was 3 different actors!!! Mind blown!!!
Same. Great makeup.
The only thing that I noticed was that she seemed to age faster than she should have if it was the same actress, but even that didn't tip me off that it wasn't the same person.
Dukat's attempts at changing who he appeared to be onscreen worked so well that it worked on the viewers beyond the fourth wall.
An Anti villain.
Comes close to redemption, only to sabotage himself.
The thing is he never really came close to redemption. He may have told others that he regretted his actions, he may have even have regretted them. He never tried to atone or make amends.
Dukat was at his most "good" when he was with his daughter Ziyal. Then she dies and by 'Waltz', Dukat had clearly gone off the deep end. He's always been pretty bad but he just got worse from there. Evil and insane.
Dukat still had some creepy moments with Ziyal, like sending a sexy dress to Kira to have her wear at a party, Kira returns it, then Dukat gives the same revealing dress to Ziyal the moment Kira has left the room
@@weldonwin I mean yeah but it was a star trek revealing dress, but it's a star trek revealing dress so it was y really at all.
Ziyal's death may have been a catalyst but Dukat these are not new internal struggles for him as evidenced by his discussions with the hallucinations.
I love DS9. I recently rewatched the entire series on Netflix. Still never realized she was played by 3 different actors.
God Damn.
I did catch that at the time (well, honestly the 2nd transition to the 3rd), only I also remember the world before the MCU established the one character one actor rule, so replacing contract players was fairly common at the time.
(Game of Thrones spoilers, I guess?)
This is exactly how I felt about Danaerys after her 'evil turn' in GoT's final season. There was no turn, the evil was always there. I, and most of my friends who watched the show, knew she was gonna be THE badguy years before.
People choose to ignore that which they don't want to see.
Congratulations, you just made me realize that Danearys Targaryen is Gul Dukat with Dragons.
I have my differences of opinion with you on some issues, Steve, but I think you're 100% on with this assessment of Dukat. He's a wonderfully well-crafted character, he's compelling, often likable, and frighteningly charismatic... But when you take the time to look at him, HOLY CROW is he ever Evil.
Dukat was a classic example of the "Everyone's a hero in their own story" concept.
He saw his little kindnesses as great acts of heroism, and his many many evils as justified.
I can’t bring myself to like Dukat for what he did to Jadzia, she was my favorite character and didn’t deserve to die
Blame the higher ups, Terry Farrell said she would be cool with a reduced role due to filming schedule conflicts with her other projects but they let her go and killed her off instead.
Dukat was a very frightening character in that he was so very real. I knew a man very much like him (minus the intelligence & discipline) That scene when he put his hand on Kira's face & told her they WERE connected....*That was Chilling! For me...that truly was the scariest Dukat scene.
That's basically it. If he was going to truly turn hero, or , remain "nuanced" he would have to throw out some indicator of regret and/or questioning the occupation, and, that never happened at any point.
In the episode in question: a tinge of questioning / regret about the Dominion alliance, but, only because it blew up in his face so big personally.
Marc Alaimo also played his "cousin" Gul Macet.
He is literally the inspiration of the makeup because of his large muscular neck ridges
Dukat wanted it both ways, to be powerful and beloved. All those good deeds were his way of trying to ingratiate himself to those whose admiration he wanted, especially Kira and Sisko.
Yes and he was vain about his image, prompting him to do “”good”” things purely for the kudos of those who witnessed it, but it was all part of his manipulations
Kira said it best: "What your father wants is forgiveness and that's something I can never give him."
Isn’t the point that dukat and sisco are two side of the same coin. Also real evil doesn’t think it’s evil it thinks it’s right.
Simon Elliott Dukat didn't think he was wrong. He simply didn't care, as long as he looked good. That's the difference: Sisco isn't killing to look good.
Simon Elliott very much so. Sisko was a flawed hero and dukat was a “flawed” villain (that is, he had character aspects that weakened his “villian” credentials. But he was a villian with an occasional lighter flash, and Sisko was a hero with some dark moments
This video was epic! Dukat is one of my favorite characters from DS9, and an incredible villain. I liked waltz, and throughout the whole series enjoyed seeing his progression from a decent man painted in a poor light revealing the monster he truly is (though some of it is a more contextual pulling back of the curtain than Dukat showing it himself). He starts out a lot like Eddington, a man who sees himself as a righteous hero. Unlike Eddington, he doesn't want to make the heroic sacrifice and be remembered, his ego is too big for that. What he wants is hero worship, and to be a living legend. When he finally realizes that he isn't a hero, when he finally accepts who he is, and embraces the hatred, greed, and jealousy he's always denied, he evolves as a villain and a character in a brilliant way. He then turns to the Pah Wraiths, the enemies of his enemies, and they accept him as their emissary, and it's a perfect balance to Sisco and the Prophets. Such a good story, I kind of want to re-watch it now...
Well said I used BBCA marathons to watch it quite a few times during 2020 & 2021. Dukat grows as a villain throughout the course of the series with "Waltz" being exactly when he accepts his role as a villain after falling to insanity from his daughter's death & his past crimes & mistakes. Dukat was always arrogant just like you said.
This is one of the most accurate Star Trek analysis I've ever watched! Thank you!
I always saw this episode as being the culmination of a man finally cracking under all the realization that he has lost _everything_ . Yes, Dukat was obviously an evil person. But what we saw in "Waltz" wasn't just an "evil" person being evil; his being an "evil bastard" merely tweaked the flavor of his breakdown.
Dukat's shark-jumping moment actually comes a little later in "Wrongs Darker Than Death or Night" when he inexplicably phones up Kira to say, "Guess what, babycakes? I slept with your mom! Muwahaha!" Actually, the problem with his appearance in "Waltz" is how suddenly and emphatically he endorses the genocide of Bajor and then subsequently works to have that mass murder realized. In the events preceding this episode, Dukat's half-Bajoran daughter Ziyal was killed by a Cardassian - his protege Damar. Moreover, in "Waltz," both Damar and Weyoun join Kira in mocking him in his fever dream. Sure, his resentment towards the Bajorans doesn't come out of nowhere, but his descent into genocidal mania is strange given how the Federation or the Dominion or Cardassia itself are all better candidates of his ire in the midst of his grief over Ziyal's death.
There's no denying that prior to "Waltz," Dukat was still a suitable candidate for execution in the Space Nuremberg Trials. But consider gold-star Sisko himself rendered an entire planet uninhabitable for all life in his bid to thwart the Maquis. His unsanctioned effort to dupe the Romulans into joining the war with falsified data could have sparked a different war with Romulus leading to the deaths of billions. The writers' need to push Dukat to the furthest reaches of evil and to set Sisko up as his virtuous opponent mirrors the flawed arc of the final seasons of the show: Light vs Dark, Pah-Wraiths vs Prophets, Good vs Evil with capital letters. Early DS9 Dukat was so successful because he leaned into the gray. It isn't that his actions in "Waltz" and beyond do not or cannot make sense in the context of the show; Dukat is a deeply flawed character that worked essentially within the Nazi High Command. No matter what good he'd done, he was already tainted. He was his best, though, when we could see the competing forces within him battling. But having him shout Mein Kampf at Sisko shortly before serving as the Devil's bodily vessel to shoot a magic laser at the wormhole really reduced Dukat to a camp villain.
And that's a shame.
I agree that the Pah-Wraiths vs Prophets thing didn't work out at all and also that Sisko was far too callous at least for my tastes. I do think however that people can change for the worse after traumatic experiences in many different ways, so while I also think that dukat became less interesting and compelling I'm not sure it was an unrealistic change (I mean I couldn't even if he was human, of course I can't judge the result of trauma on alien psychology).
Unsanctioned? Starfleet Intelligence wasn't privy to everything, but they signed off on allowing Bashir to release biomimetic gel to an unknown 3rd party.
Reminds me of something Ricardo Montalban once said of his characterization of Khan... the bad guy never sees *himself* as the bad guy, but justified in his actions, even righteous and virtuous...
That pretty much summed up Dukat to a "T". Later! OL J R :)
This reminds me of that talk Picard had with Worf about villains not always twirling their mustaches.
This is a great video, and while at first I found myself in total agreement with Steve, recently upon rewatching I've had some thoughts. Whilst there certainly is a lot of holocaust-esque imagery when it comes to the Bajoran Occupation, an echo reinforced when Dukat speaks about 'the superior race' in Waltz, I don't think this really is the most fitting allegory. Alternatively, I would suggest that Dukat and Cardassia fit far more neatly into the history of Imperialism and Colonialism. The Cardassians didn't set out to exterminate the Bajorans, but just like 18th and 19th century imperialists many of them were convinced they were carrying out a 'civilising mission' - just as Dukat in Waltz argues the Cardassians planned to turn Bajor into a 'paradise' with their perceived superior technology and culture. This attitude of superior and inferior races is also inherent to this imperialist attitude - even figures that are still highly respected such as Churchill is known to have had highly derogatory view of Indians. Heck, even concentration camps have their origin in the age of imperialism. Therefore, Dukat is best understood as a product of that Imperialist society, and therefore morally can only really expected to be judged relative to those forming values. When you're brought up believing in the tenets of Cardassian supremacy and their manifest destiny in the alpha quadrant, I think there should be some degree of credit ( not to say he doesn't have many, many undesirable traits) that Dukat does have at least some respect and compassion towards the Bajorans (he's even shown in many episodes to have a not insignificant knowledge of Bajoran beliefs and customs) - put him up against Gul Darheel for example.
Another slightly odd thing about Waltz is how Sisco is the one who pushes Dukat towards the idea of 'you should have killed them all' - you may say Dukat has been nurturing this hatred all along, but the guy is incredibly unstable and furious in this episode, so it probably not wise to take this as an honest accounting of the contents of the guy's soul - and it seems that Sisco ends up directing him towards his genocidal conclusion - just saying.
Another thing, I don't think Dukat is honestly narcissistic - the events that would lead us to understand this are better understood by his driving and overarching need for approval. He needs Sisco's respect in Waltz and longs for Kira's (representing Bajor), he's delighted that they're building a statue of him on Cardassia because he finally has recognition.
Any thoughts appreciated!
2:50 It was Another security system left by his Leget. Thats what made it even more epic.
I really do love the way that Steve draws such appropriate parallels in videos such as this to a reflection upon what people can be truly like and breaking down the character in really clever detail in a way we can all relate .
Gul Dukat is one of the best examples of Lawful Evil. He thinks he is Lawful Good, that he's doing the right thing but he's really an evil mess.
Godzilla is a hero/villain? I thought Godzilla was a force of nature where your arbitrary concept of good and evil are artificial human constructs that just can't be applied to a kaiju with atomic breath. Or in other words, next time you are in Alaska, try and get into a philosophical discussion with a polar bear.
Depends on the Godzilla. Early on Godzilla could be considered an antagonist, as any antagonist can be anything from a storm (like in castaway) to a person (like Darth Vader). Godzilla definitely represented a force of nature, unstoppable and insurmountable. But later versions who fight other big monsters could be come a hero of some sort, just maybe never the protagonists.
I tend to agree with your take on Dukat except in one point. You stated that there should be no redemption for someone like Dukat, especially if he can't come to terms with his Nazi-like regime and treatment of the Bajorans. But what about Garak? Wasn't he guilty of equally horrible things, though perhaps on a less grandiose scale. As a member of the Obsidian Order it's revealed how much he enjoyed the interrogation chamber, which had a sole purpose of breaking people. The only shred of decency we get from him in the old days was in "The Wire," but even then, can you trust anything he or Tain said? Garak was also charming and witty, but ruthless and deadly. Could he be redeemed when Dukat could not be?
The only deeds I remember Garak hating himself for were the ones against his own people. He detested himself for working for the Federation against the Dominion, because it meant Cardassians would die thanks entirely to him.
Beyond that, I never got the impression he was bothered by any of his past life. Sure, he had daddy issues, but he wasn't bothered by his life as an agent or assassin. Listen to how he justifies himself to Sisko in "In the Pale Moonlight." He's perfectly happy treating people's lives as currency. He has no qualms about plotting murder. He's absolutely ruthless.
Garak gets away with it because his true deeds are more well hidden than most of Dukat's AND because he constantly assists our heroes. Add in his charm and its easy for people to forget how dangerous he is. I remain in absolutely no doubt he would have killed any or all of the DS9 main characters if that happened to be in line with his objectives.
An interesting man, for sure. A useful man, definitely. A nice one, not so much. Even Garak would tell you that.
Garek was a bad man who did a lot of evil things in the Obsidien Order, but he didn't bullshit himself like Dukat. When Garek did good, he didn't do it for anyone's approval, like Dukat. In order to be redeemed, you need to know first and not dance around the idea that you're an evil person first. You need to identify the problem before it could be solved. Dukat, unlike Garek refused to do so. Garek always had a kind of low opinion about himself and didn't understand why someone would want to bond with him like Ziyal did. He felt he didn't deserve it, but through his actions on the show, he proved himself worthy. Dukat did what he did to impress the Sisko and the target of his obsession, Nerys, which made his redemption impure and wasn't worthy. Dukat's a great and complex character, but he doesn't deserve to be redeemed because he never earned it, and he never will.
Exactly. Dukat was a pure narcissist personality. Even Garak could acknowledge that the Cardassians have not been "entirely innocent." I doubt you'd ever hear Dukat speak like that about his people.
Yes, Garak's eyes were opened by Ziyal. He realized that she really loved him, and he couldn't understand because he knows he's not a "good" person. Sometimes you need someone else to see the good in you, to acknowledge it's there, and give it a chance! After that, it was not as hard for him to choose to help the Federation!
Garak was a realist. He knows full well the actions and results of what he himself and his people had done. Garak could be an example of a Nazi who escaped to Argentina and then started working for the US Government after the war. Garak never sought redemption, but did seek acceptance.
Man I miss DS9. I found the Cardassians way more interesting than the Klingons.
If Gul Dukat is anything it is an Anti-Hero. Which is NOT anything like an actual Hero. An Anti-Hero is someone who is an overall bad person who just happens to do the right thing because it is in their own best interest.
Another fantastic quote from the show that captures Dukat for me is his line to Weyoun, "A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness." Great work by the way on this video!
Dukat isn't a villain, but he is absolutely an antagonist. He was capable of being a good person, but he was born into a place, time, and society that didn't allow him to be a good person without forfeiting any possibility of personal success or prestige. As a result, he compromised his ethics, did a few bad things to climb the social ladder so he could have the power to run things the way _he_ thought was right, and spent the rest of his life haunted by the consequences of the bad things he did and watching his reputation stain everything good he tried to do. Over time, the cognitive dissonance between the person he wanted/intended to be vs. the person his actions defined him as caused him to essentially lose his mind. He hated _actually_ being the bad guy, but he hated the _mere possibility_ of personal failure and disgrace even more, so in the end he was essentially forced to go all-in on being a successful bad guy instead of a failed good guy.
He was unable to accept that while he may have been better than other Cardassians, he was still doing bad things. If he had been able to accept that those things were unacceptable and move forward as the person he tried to be, he could have grown into a much better person.
Sure his labour camps had less deaths, but he still ran labour camps. He needed to realize that act wasn't acceptable. There wasn't some grander purpose to their enslavement of the Bajorians, it was pure evil.
@@radix4400He’s a cautionary tale in my opinion, just as both the Cardassian Union and the Dominion are cautionary tales on the inevitable downfall of all oppressive dictatorships.
I do buy his explanation that things would have been worse without him... at least at first. Continued (justified) resistance against a brutal, but not as brutal as the higher ups wanted, occupation forced his hand, being pushed by those higher ups into getting worse and worse until he was as bad, if not worse, than those "worse" commanders he was replacing. Sadly, he stopped feeling bad about it, justifying it and seeing it as a good thing, becoming over time the worst of the worst. In the show itself, as you say, he refuses to admit his awfulness.
You're having a pretty hard time reading dramatic cues if you "buy his explanation". The show goes out of its way, in every single scene where he makes claims like that, to show how the other characters find his "explanation" somewhere between laughable and stomach-turning. The historical context here is, of course, the Nazis that Dukat is meant to represent: many of them tried to "explain" to the Nuremberg trials that they only helped carry out the murder of millions to try and "save" people.
I think that was partly based on Adolf Eichmann. Even in captivity, he clung to the false persona he created and later tried to rationalize his actions by handwaving it away as "if Himmler had come it would have been worse". The sad reality is, that by the tile he arrived in Hungary in the summer of '44 most Axis countries started to get jittery with continued support for Nazi Germany. By the time he arrived in Hungary it had to be occupied like Italy to keep it in the war on the Axis side.
There are only differences. Where Italy dropped out and partisans joined the Allies in actively fighting the Nazis and fascist collaborators, the Hungarian leadership willingly stayed in the fight and was even more eager to ramp up deportations. In contrast with Eichmann's claim that Himmler had been worse, he did nothing. He didn't advise Veesenmayer that due to amped up Allied bombing the infrastructure is no longer secure for such deportations, he didn't plead with Hitler or Himmler that fighting a 3-front war ends in inevitable defeat, so they need to focus on organized retreat.
Can't put it in exact words, but to sum it up, Dukat expected to be a perpetual leader of Bajor even after leaving Terok Nor. Like any good fascist, he sees moral decay in people who don't follow the only good kind of rules so it's only a matter of time before Bajor sees reason and rejects the chaos brought on by revolting and reinstates the old rules.
Wasn't he just being the typical Cardassian? View through their lens, he was probably a less brutal than others. The occupation was way worse before Dukat was in charge, and relatively speaking he was probably on par with the regular occupation style of the Klingons and Romulans.
Family is everything in Cardassia, but he gave it all up to be with Ziyal. While he may have somewhat used her to redeem himself reputation wise, that is the Cardassian way.
He was also willng to sacrifice her to help Cardassia.
If we only view things through the Federation point of view, yeah he is probably evil, but other species has different views. Claiming Dukat is evil is akin to saying that Quark is evil by Bajoran standards for putting profit before spirituality, or that Kira is evil by Klingon standards since she rather engage in cowardly attacks than to fight in honorable combat. The whole universe doesn't revolve around the Federation.
festealth There are situations where right and wrong are obvious. The fact that killing millions in order to use their resources is wrong is a fact, not an opinion.
I love Dukat but he's literally space Hitler. He is the allagory for Hitler in this story.
This isn't about the Federations values vs Cardassian values. This really is as simple as "Space Hitler ultimatley bad". Space Hitler may have done some nice shit, but he literally ordered the murder of millions of people so he's still the bad guy.
Subjective morality or differing cultural values only get you so much of a pass. The murder of millions should be an eye opener but Marc Alaimo is just too fucking charming so we forget sometimes..
Nah. One thing the Cardassians have on most other aliens on Star Trek, through the magic of _Deep Space Nine,_ is that they come across as complex and therefore morally responsible.
BigHenFor but if such exploitation helps trillions more then it is better.
@@BigHenFor
"The fact that killing millions in order to use their resources is wrong is a fact, not an opinion"
Meh and yet I'll continue to eat, killing countless living beings and steal their resources in the process. You can only judge your own species, festealth is right that you can't expand your ideas on other life forms.
In my point of view Dukat is a villain even by Cardassian standards, but realistically speaking there's no way to judge a being who's body chemistry works completely different from our own. Even if lions were sentient you'd still have no basis to judge their males for killing the cups of disposed former pride leaders.
Anyway Star Trek isn't a documentary but an allegory, so Dukat is meant to represent humans which makes it fine to judge him, but if he was indeed a real existing alien life form, we could not do so and the claim that "killing millions in order to use their resources is wrong is a fact" would only be a meaningless fantasy if you tried to apply it to him and not another human.
also on 'waltz' the main reason he finally takes this turn, is because his daughters death has made him mentally unstable, which allows his mind to finally go the extra mile and accept who he is and embrace it, vrs his rational mind which keeps it in check to not detract from his quest for more power. which is always his singular focus. more power. more standing. getting his old job back. there is ALWAYS some motivation for personal gain with dukat. ALWAYS. vrs garak who is arguable just as evil, and capable as such, but cares for both his father, and cardassia as a whole. even after being exiled and reviled, by both his homeland and his father. genuine goodness and selflessness. albeit a very small part, but its there. and i feel for him in the last episodes. he finally returns home. but it is so bittersweet, so phyrric, cause his home is no longer the same. dukat? he never really cared for cardassia. he only cared for how much power he could obtain, within cardassia. this is evident after his turn, which there is some insanity involved im sure, but he cares nothing for cardassia, only the destruction of bajor and the release of the pah-wraiths later.
The greatest Star Trek villain ever.
Dukat is simply saying that if he hadn't been prefect of Bajor somebody worse might have been.
Dear Steve,
You provide lots of points of discussion in our family. Good work. Xxx
The behavior of the Cardassians on Bajor reminds me more of the actions of the Japanese during World War II. Enslaving people as "comfort women" for soldiers is something the Japanese did, not the Nazis.
LOL - I always thought Omar WAS the hero in The Wire!
Well it sure as hell wasn't Marlow Fucking Stansfield.
Waltz wasn't a character assassination as much as it was that moment in Greek tragedy where a character realizes he cannot escape his fate. As DS9 wraps up, both Dukat and Sisko finally surrender to the roles the universe (and it no small part The Prophets) have cast them. Both lived in shades of grey, both resisted their fates, and both end up fulfilling them despite the struggle.
"You know old man, I used to think all my life that nothing was truly good or truly evil.... everything seemed to be a shade of grey. And then you spend some time with a man like Dukat...and you realize that there IS such a thing...as truly evil".
-Captain Benjamin Sisco, Waltz.
Stuck in quarantine, and your trek videos give me so much joy 🖖🖖🖖
This video is so well thought out. Thank you keep up the good work!
He was a "monster" that believed he was the good guy, exactly like every real world "monster".
"Not in a good place mentally." In the episode Waltz, Gul Dukat was, to borrow from one of my favorite sci-fi characters (Col. Jack O'Neil), "three french fries short of a happy meal!" And well on his way to having his cupcakes come completely unfrosted.
A very good video with the right perspective! Dukat is the stereotype of the worst villain, claiming to be the savior of a species he tried to destroy and humiliate. This one of the best written villain, and it shows how DS9 writers had a good grasp on plot developpement than many other Star Trek shows.
It's hard to see him as a "Good Guy", but i think the supposed "assassination of the character" is a thing.
I mean, he shift from being a character with you can empathize in some of his decision(like entering in the Dominion)to a bidimensional villain just interested in being evil.
I think Braga and the others needed a true devilish figure to go with Pah-Wraith, as opposite with the godly-like Sisko sided by Prophets, so they took Dukat and turn him in that way a little bit too easily in my opinion.
When in Season 6 Episode 6, the Prophets say "the Sisko is of Bajor but he will never find peace there" ? At the point they already that this act evoked the series finale, and that Dukat will lead the Pah Wraiths.
And of course Godzilla, is now my favorite way to end any sentence just to screw with people.
Honestly. Gul Dukat lost his mind after seeing everything in his life go tits up and PTSD. Lost his homeworld. Ziyal. Couldn't be enough for Kira. Lost his prestigious command. Lost being the head of the Central Command! Like Being the head of Starfleet. Trying to be friendly to Sisko as his DS9 Counterpart. He had "everything" then had "nothing" and was on his way to a hyperliberal court to be hanged. He hit the breaking point.
Lately - when I watch "geekdom" style channels like this, whether it be Star Trek or video games or comic books, etc, I just wait, WAIT for weird, sudden sexist or alt right views to pop up in one of the channel videos and I have to slink away depressed. After this video I wish I could give you a hug. Thanks being true to the spirit of Trek. Can't wait to watch them all. I'll pay ya back on Patreon.
Actually, they literally did just try to make him more of a bad guy. Ira Steven Behr even admits to doing so in a cast interview. He did not like and felt bad the Dukat was being celibrated by the fans as a "hero". He morally started to not agree with that as Ira thought of him as nothing more then a space Nazi. Dukats actor hated that and it actually caused quite the fights between them. Ira would win out (of course) and thus started changing it in the writers room. To make it more black and white. This is per interviews with them. There isnt any deeper meaning in the change.
Nope. What Behr explained is that they had a clear idea of the character, and they were shocked (since Dukat in "Waltz" is, of course, recognizable as the character we'd seen up to that point) that they even had to guide viewers back to the story they were telling. I feel for Behr: it's pretty tough for me to imagine someone so tone-deaf to dramatic cues that they thought Dukat was anything other than what he was always shown to be: monstrous and evil, but also petty and just plain pathetic. What a great villain.
This a lie. Just look up Marc Aliamo interview on Waltz. He said he loved that episode. You also misunderstood Ira. Just admit it, you’re a Nazi sympathizer.
I would say 40% of my love of Ds9 comes from Mark Alaimo's overtly dominant acting job with the Ducat character. That an the fantastic multi season story arc of the Dominion war. What better way to do a multi season arc then with a war!
Between Dukat, Garak and Quark, many of the best/most favorite chars aren’t even our Starfleet heroes proper!
People seem to forget Dukats slow descent into madness. His arc towards the end of the series actually makes sense when taken as a whole. IMO, he’s one, if not the greatest, of Star Trek villains ever written.
An important note about Explorers, the episode with the ancient Bajoran starship that Sisko flies with his son, is that it is implied that the only reason Dukat gives Sisko fireworks is to save face. Because the Cardassian government was already aware that such ships had made the trip to Cardassia before. When Sisko made the trip they conveniently showed a ship that they had "Recently found" that corroborated the undeniable evidence that Sisko's trip had already provided.
Well said. I was scared going into this one. I thought you were gonna lionize / redeem Dukat the way you did with Jellico, and I simply didn’t wanna let you do that to me. But I took a chance, and I’m glad I did. Great work! A nice ending too which could’ve gone sour easily but didn’t.
Keep bringing more DS9 please. Thoughts on Ezri? Thought on the distinct absence of Jadzia during the black/white flashbacks of the finale? Terry Farrell gave so much to DS9, far more than Crosby or even Meaney did to TNG, but they got All Good Things. They didn’t have to do a time warp, but Farrell deserved at least a flashback shot!
I love the Dukat character, I am one of those Dukat fans.... I was not bothered by the "Waltz" storyline for Dukat. He clearly had a extremely dark side that he tried to justify,. While I think he did have a chance to be redeemed I don't think all redeemable characters need to be redeemed. There can be still be a great character arc with a redeemable character that refuses the redemption offered to them.... Also I think what DS9 did with Damar and his story arc is the "Gul Dukat redemption" story that Damar who was mentored by Dukat was 'Cardassia redeemed at the end of the war" did the redeemable part of Dukat justice.
Dukat is Trek's greatest villain, because he's genuinely one of Trek's greatest characters. Also, Waltz is one of my favorite episodes in all of Trek.
Dukat's charm, and apparent "humanity" are part of the point. Many monsters tell themselves they are doing what must be done for the greater good, and are very skilled at convincing others as well. It's what makes the most dangerous monsters so dangerous.
I want to point out something that is often overlooked. We really should not hold other sentient species to the same moral rules we can hold humans to. A Vulcan is not a logical human, a Klingon is not an aggressive human, a Cardassian is not a devious human, they belong to their own species and their behaviors are not distorted reflections of our own, they are normal for them. Of course, Star Trek does use other species to illuminate various aspects of our own species, but in universe the behaviors of those species should NOT be seen as something that needs to be corrected and brought in line with Federation ideals. Of all the characters I have seen in Star Trek, I think only Picard has this sort of outlook, everyone else in the Federation seems to think that THEY have the high road, and others better get with the program and conform, or else.
But some deeds no matter how you try to justify them ARE evil. Genocide and slavery are some of them.
Good point
So what standards do we hold them too? Even if it is a direct contradiction with our own morals and standards? I think it's unavoidable, and I think understanding is the key.
You know, one of the most memorable moments in the series was in an episode when Jake was trying to form a friendship with Nog and kept running up against Nog's greed and... Ferenginess. Captain Sisko reminds Jake that Nog is an alien and that Ferengi have different values from hoomahns, which requires mindfulness for Jake to navigate. It was, to me, one of those moments that made the world the show inhabited feel realized.
We should hold all life to some range of standards, I think - if they are conscious and by that I mean it is _like something_ to be them, and to suffer or be well for so being, and they are sentient / aware of this range of felt states.
I'm not sure it's possible for species to survive "the great filter" without this.
Some good thoughts here, Steve. DS-9 is my favorite of the Star Trek series although since I'm not much of a Star Trek fan in general, that only goes so far. I never saw that much "good' in Dukat. Everything he does is out of pure selfish interest. Sure, sometimes that helps the 'good guys' but that's not his primary goal. Contrast this with my favorite Sci Fi "villain of all time, Scorpius of "Farscape" who is motivated entirely by his loathing and fear of the Scarran Empire and who does bad things (from the main character's point of view) for what can be argued is a perfectly valid reason-to stop the Scarrans from killing everybody. If he's got to torture a few regular characters every season....omelettes and eggs, right?
Mr. Worf. Villains who twirl their moustache are easy to spot. Those who cloak themselves in good deeds are well camouflaged.
Hitler supposedly loved Eva Braun and had a dog whom he also loved a lot and spent a lot of time with him and a painter, an artist, lets not forget that.
He was ( and unfortunately still is ) a hero to many people and monuments of him were built. And we all know what he has done...
I think Gal Dukat is a great character and an awesome allegory to that part of history and people in it, especially all those nazi officers and leaders subsequently trying to prove the same thing Dukat is trying, at Nurnberg trials afterwards. Somewhat distanced from that but in this day and age i see similar thing in Hague trials involving people from my country ( Croatia ) and villanisation as opposed to heroisation of some people... Lesson of the day from deep space nine and real life from history and more recent events is that even the most horrible war criminals and murderers are just people in the end, that does not and should not lessen the crime.
Great video btw ;)
I think him more of a representation of Colonialists than Nazis. He was racist, was willing to kill as many Bajorans as he seemed fit, and used them as slave laborers. But until "Waltz" or maybe "In Purgatory's Shadow" he never attempted to actually exterminate them which was certainly something the Nazis decided on early on.
Not that that is defense of him since colonialism as a whole is about the only part of human history possibly even worse than WW2.
The mental-health issues that Ducat may have been dealing with this entire time make him even more sympathetic to me. People who have a lot of repressed guilt can start to come apart at the mental seams. At the point of Waltz, he was psychologically broken. He tried to defend his actions to himself, to Sisko, to everyone: it was the only way he could deal with what happened. Losing his daughter pushed him over the edge.
His psychotic break came from losing the last person who ever loved him. It wasn'"t a psychological breakdown brought on by remorse. People with PTSD stemming from survivor's guilt don't usually have homicial tendencies, schizophrenics with homicidal ideations do.
Makes me wonder what Steve would think of Damar . . .
Great Episode. The writers do a great job humanizing him over the course of the series, but every Dukat appearance leads up to and is fulfilled at this moment.
The algorithm served me your Garak video and I was impressed enough to check your other vids out. I love all the Trek the analysis you share in these videos, I’m glad I stumbled across your channel. I was already about to subscribe then you said DS9 was your favorite Trek and I knew I had to not only sub but dive deep into your catalog, haha, great work!
You should do a video about Damar.
Just reacting to the title before watching your video; in my opinion, HELL TO THE NO. Dukat is a narcissistic, manipulative, sexually predacious WAR CRIMINAL who will do literally ANYTHING to advance his standing and power (the only reason he didn't kill his half-bajoran daughter Ziyal during the episode Indiscretion, was Kira's persistent interference managing to prick what little atrophied soul he retains, spurring it into a brief flare of function). He can put on a charming facade when he wants to, but anyone with two brain cells to rub together sees through it and treats him with the caution his presence warrants.
Ok, got that out of my system, watching your video now.
Oh come on, are you really going to cite the fireworks Dukat sets off at the conclusion of the light ship episode as proof he's a 'hero'? That is OVERWHELMINGLY WEAK, dude. He tried, multiple times, to dissuade Sisko from taking the journey! Why? Because proving Bajorans were capable of interstellar travel before the Cardassians would be counter to the narrative of technological and sociological superiority that Cardassia's society maintained over Bajor! He begrudgingly celebrated Sisko's arrival in Cardassian space because they could no longer maintain that false narrative! They were even forced to "discover" an ancient Bajoran lightship that had crashed on Cardassia millennia ago, providing hard evidence of ancient Bajor's ability to travel through systems, via light ship. Cardassia's government had known about this for ages; they'd hidden it because 'Oh noes! Mah Cardassian Supremacy!' You are skipping over a LOT of dirty details here, Steve. Which is a nice segue into your next subtopic.
In Waltz, Dukat finally shows his true colors. As his sanity unravels, so too does his ability to obfuscate his true nature. He's a self-serving, murderous, genocidal predator nazi with delusions of empathy. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love watching him. I love how complex he is as a character. The main reason I love watching him is the very reason he's NO HERO; He has this obsession with selectively contextualizing his past, with trying to get someone, anyone, to forgive him, or at least to understand his actions as HE WANTS them to; to accept the warped reasoning and rationalizations he puts forward to justify the things he's done. And when that fails, when Sisko really gets him frothing, the last pieces of his mask fall away, and we're left staring at the alien Hitler he has been all along. The progression of his character development (or rather, devolution, he goes pretty nuts) is fantastic, because we get hints, prods, and straight up SHOVES about what he really is, WAY before we get to Waltz, and I just find it hilarious that so many people got so worked up over the 'assassination' of his character when it was PAINFULLY obvious (to me anyway) just where we were headed with his progression.
Oh good, you mention Indiscretion! Kinda hard not to, really, if we're talking about Dukat's personality and past... also yes, I really, REALLY WISH we'd gotten a bit more depth from Ziyal as a character. The most compelling thing about her was her shortlived (get it? 'shortlived?' Because she ends up...nevermind) romance with Garak, and that kind of just squicked me out, to be honest. Everyone knows Garak and Bashir were meant for one another.
By Inferno's Light oh my god talk about a SHOVE regarding Dukat's true nature, JFC. That really wraps it all up, doesn't it? Dukat is a fucking VILLAIN. A brilliant one, sure, but a villain all the same. Anyone who thinks otherwise really just needs their head examined.
Ok so the title of your video was clickbait, but I forgive you because I had a lot of fun watching and reacting to it. Voluntary Quarantine is boring, so thank you for entertaining me.
For me the single best scene that sums up Dukat comes in the episode "Sons and Daughters" when Kira returns the dress that Dukat wanted it to wear and basically tells him to fuck off. The instant after Kira leaves, his daughter Ziyal walks into the room Dukat pretends the dress was meant for her so that he can continue to build up the image of himself as a caring father. His entire character is defined by his desire to make himself out to be the knight in shining armor. Everything he does in Deep Space Nine is designed to further the construction of that image. Even after "Waltz" he still continues to try to make himself out to be the good guy. For proof, one doesn't need to look any further than "Covenant" when he sets himself up as the leader of the pah-wraith cult.
My favorite Cardassian was always Garak. Something about the guy fallen from grace in his own world who is more than he seems being a cool character type. Especially when he helped lead a Cardassian revolt against a government in league with the Dominion and got to indulge his patriotism in the process gave me a good dose of vicarious satisfaction.