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The Problems with Star Trek: Voyager: The Equinox Conundrum
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- Опубликовано: 30 окт 2018
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I have no idea why but the audio for the Voyager clips used in this video doesn't play well on mobile devices. It plays fine on my desktop computers, but on mobile devices it plays in some low tiny mono. So this video might be best played on proper speakers on a desktop computer.
It's loud and clear on mine
LOVE your scifi reviews ....
they are excellent, highly competent, insightful as well as entertaining
--- a world away from crazy politics
i hope you can do this forever!
It's got nothing to do with the intelligence (or lack thereof) of the aliens, it's the THREAT they pose. They can appear in a couple of seconds, zap you to aged death and escape again in another couple of seconds.
I'd forgotten why I never liked Voyager, in my memory it was just boring .. but you hit it right on the nose. I was thinking the same thing at the time. It was like a verson of Star Trek for little kids.
Maybe this is the Pre-Europe censorship! lol
I'm surprised you didn't bring up Quartk's quote from DS9: Siege of AR-558. "Humans are wonderful lovely people as long as their bellies are full and their holodecks are working. Take away those creature comforts, and they become as bloodthirsty as any Klingon."
He quotes it at 11:00
@@koyrehme4361 And it made me cringe.
@@spinstartshere So?
Incredibly insulting. Klingons are incompetent children compared to Man when Man is on the warpath.
@@koyrehme4361 No, he doesn't. He does say "when your belly is full" which is a misquote, and then for on to talk about sonic showers instead of holodecks. And he never attributes it to Quark, either. So no, he's not quoting Quark, he's badly paraphrasing. Actually playing that clip from DS9 would have been very effective.
"When the stomach is full, it is easy to talk of fasting.
"
-Saint Jerome
The difference is Archer didn't kill anyone. He left supplies for them to survive.
In the end it still may have killed them, but yes, it was a different situation and he acted much more humane there. A tough decision, but a convincing one. I didn´t see a break of character or theme in the series in that. Hard, but not unjustifiable. With Ransom...not a clear no, but much darker and further into the wrong direction.
@@SirMarshalHaig nah take away those creature comforts & put your behind in that situation
@@SirMarshalHaig even at that, a dire situation like that may be an opportunity for a character to break. Even better, maybe they're not broken, but maybe they're not who we, or they, think they are.
Look at The Sisko in "In the Pale Moonlight".
This always bothered me. Not that he took the warp coil, but after the mission was completed and the ship repaired, why did they not go back or send someone back to replace the warp coil?
@@SirMarshalHaig Ransom initially killed an alien out of scientific curiosity not malice. After that they kept showing up and attacking him. He would have been a fool Not to keep converting the remains to fuel.
Battlestar Galactica was what Voyager could have been: A ship held together by duct tape, crew hungry and angry, leaders making tough decisions that had real consequences, and people dying along the way.
That is why Ronald Moore left Voyager
BSG was superb although in a way it ruined SF because everyone after decided they had to give every SF series the BSG treatment. Stargate (SG 1 and SGA) was great but what the fans liked was the humor and camaraderie. After BSG powers that be decided they had to give SG the BSG treatment which resulted in SGU. Not a bad series but not what SG fans wanted. Giving Voyager the BSG treatment would not have gone over well either.
The problem with making comparisons like this is that there is enough technology in the Star Trek universe for a starship to be relatively self-sufficient for extended periods. Bussard collectors can theoretically provide an infinite amount of energy, and the existence of replicators means that anything that gets beat up can be replaced with ease. In the BSG universe, the people are reliant on manufactured fuel for their ships and raw bio-materials for their food products, and they have industrial ships dedicated to the production of all of these material resources. But also, let's not forget the touch of artistic license involved in Voyager surviving as immaculately as it did.
It may have been good for awhile, but even BSG got oppressive and gloomy, 5 or 6 seasons of that in a Star Trek show would have driven people away.
Voyager killed so much of their crew just in the first 10 minutes they had to recruit the Maquis crew to staff the ship
I’d still watch voyager over discovery
damn right and the orville is what STD will never be as good as
That is not saying much!
I’d rather watch DS9 over STD and I really don’t like DS9.
@@ericpleasant7225 I know right, that's like saying a truck stop burger is better than a shit sandwich.
I'd stare at a blank TV screen for an hour rather than watch Discovery.
Just to add an example of lack of continuity. At the end of Equinox a couple of its crew members are integrated into the Voyager crew AND they are never heard of again for the rest of the series.
Herman Spaerman Really? I didn't remember that. I thought they were all killed at the end of part II
There was a scene where the remainder were disciplined by Janeway:
ruclips.net/video/pA-Vy-lLbto/видео.html
We never see any of these people again but instead we get the "Brady Bunch Borg Kids" in several episodes.
They would've been a good jumping off point for some different types of episodes and crew development / interaction but Star Trek is almost famous for doing this - just dropping plot threads - especially Voyager.
...they were probably sent down to deck 15 to scrub the warp coils.
i looked that up on The Star Trek Memory Alpha site.. apparently they died off screen during the later season, even that one that was afraid of getting into the turbo lift.
They were probably reduced to their basic atomic state by feeding them into a replicator: Those brand new shuttles had to come from somewhere.
It's like that scene in DS9 where Sisko explains that the decision makers are all the way on Earth in comfort making decisions while they are out on the fringes. People were protecting their homes and all they wanted was to be left alone. It's not easy seeing things when you're up in your ivory tower.
Well said! Even Sisko had Starfleet on the other end of the phone
the whole time Janeway was moralizing and grandstanding I just keep thinking "Hey Janeway, remember that time you murdered Tuvix? remember that time you made an alliance with the borg to save your own skin? remember all those times you violated the temporal prime directive?"
It seems the only time Janeway *didn't* violate the prime directive or starfleet protocol was when it came to her actual mission: getting her crew home (until the final episode, of course)
She killed Tuvix like he was a rabid dog.
@@Zodroo_Tint another stewpid comment
Murder? What a stewpid comment
I like Voyager, I often think it’s misunderstood or oversimplified somewhat, and for the most part I could overlook the certain things that didn’t seem that believable. That is until you see the episode where the main crew are turned into Borg but still have full autonomy and are aware of everything the whole time. Because of some brain suppressor bs, and I thought to myself, ahh right, is that how it works?
And that would be fine, if the show actually held her to task for her previous choices...
I think it's a bit unfair to say that Seven never progressed her character from Borg to Human. While there were times she shifted back and forth, there was clear movement forward back to humanity.
I found her too unlikable and annoying.
Yeah Seven could of been a much more interesting character. That is the general problem with VOY, some interesting concepts but never did anything with it.
@@michaeld8280 Yikes, they did a huge amount with her but she was so unlikable to begin with she was off putting.
They didn't really do anything with seven, because like it was said, they kept hitting the reset button with her. Seven didn't really grow as a character.
@@michaeld8280 I guess to me she was as annoying by the end as the beginning. Every step they made with her character didn't make her any more endearing and boy did the writers do tons with her character at the expense of everybody else.
It's easy to be a Saint in paradise.
They're a wonderful, friendly people - as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working.
@@MatthewNash exactly the quote I was thinking about when watching this. One of my favorite ds9 eps
@@andrewblanchard2398 Droning civilians and caging kids was paradise BACK THEN, SURE SMDH
@@09Ateam He's not wrong. It was paradise for SOME people.
@@andrewblanchard2398 Yeah Obama sucked. Good point.
I was 100% with you, until the segue into the intelligence level of the Equinox aliens--why would they need starships and holodecks since they can travel seemingly instantaneously from one place to another in their own wormholes? They could understand Janeway enough to make a deal with her for their own self preservation, they sound like a pretty intelligent race to me.
eh, sometimes ya gotta squash a few space dolphins to make some tuna. boo hoo.
@@stargazerspark4499 Equinox would've been destroyed if they hadn't met Voyager. That means their plan would've failed. A few assholes dead in space. Boo hoo. However, now Voyager plus any other human has nothing to bargain with should they run into these pissed off space dolphins. Innocent lives lost on both sides due to a few dead assholes.
Exactly. And the episode certainly didn't give us time to learn about the aliens' culture. They could have a very rich culture full of philosophers for all we know. We don't because that wasn't necessary to the episode.
Yes
Plus, why are only inteligent beings worthy of being looked at through moral glasses?
Exactly what I thought, they have language that the universal translater could interpret,
Why is it okay to kill a dozen individuals to give yourself a easier ride.
I’ll be honest, to me, your opinions on Star Trek seem a bit contradictory. In more recent videos you rail against it being taken away from Gene Roddenberry’s ideals & vision of the future of humanity yet in this, you seem to be annoyed that Janeway is commanding by those principles. I agree, ST:VOY often had convenient endings to storylines that deprived it of any real consequences but at the same time, GR’s vision in Star Trek is of a somewhat utopian future. While the actions & stories in DS9 are more grounded, some may say realistic, what with the Dominion War & Sisko generally; why is Janeway trying to stick to the ideals of Starfleet & the UFP seen as a weakness in what is a utopian, sci fi franchise? Sure it may seem naive but isn’t that at the heart of what Star Trek is?
I think the moment Voyager really died for me was when it became apparent that they were just... done with the Borg. Oh, they had recurring Borg episodes, but they had this big dramatic build-up to the thing we all kinda knew was coming - the Delta Quadrant is the home of the Borg. Sooner or later, Voyager would come across a place only ever visited by the Enterprise before. It could have been awesome. It could have led to Voyager discovering that the entire region was a post-apocalyptic nightmare, strip-mined and assimilated. There could have been freaky dyson-sphere type things, entire planets mechanized... we could have discovered some tragic origin story for the Borg; the homeworld of the Borg could have still been there, still populated with proto-Borg, but abandoned, considered obsolete; its resources consumed. We could have had an entire season of the Voyager crew constantly running and hiding, lost in the belly of the beast...
...but no.
What if V'Ger was the father of the Borg...
Ayy well there could always be a Voyager reboot with all new characters.
@@leeroberts4850 Yeah, except instead of the series turning into tragedy porn where Harry Kim finds true love then pretends to be dead then actually gets deaded in a really horrible way... they just focus on the actual adventuring and surviving. Preferably.
Nicholas Brakespear I would love to see that
To say nothing about the fact that now a Borg Cube, literally the nemesis of entire Federation fleets, can now be blown up with 1 or 2 torpedoes.
Endgame was the nail in the Borg coffin.
Amazing that Voyager always managed to get more dilithium crystals, photon torpedoes, and replacement parts.
Replicators and asteroids or minable planets. True they don't give much in the way of detail because it's only one hour for the story. The story is never about how they repaired the ship. No one wants to know about that. Try reading books. They offer more details.
Don’t forget shuttles, apparently voyager had roughly 50 of them given the loses
Apparently they can be kit built at a moment's notice.
I guess Paris had to do that too...
@Kathleen Mcmanus pretty much, I remember someone did an analysis and they lost like 70 of them throughout the show's run.
And don't even get me started on the torpedos, can they just replicate them or some shit?
well there were episodes in which they did have to find dilithium. one episode had Kim and Torres stranded on a proto-Greek planet and they found a bunch of dilithium to use.
Enterprise was underrated in my opinion, they dedicated an entire season to one storyline, it was like one giant episode
And that's what killed it. (Except that now, darn near every sci-fi show, and a lot of drama's, are exactly that way. Which is why TV sucks now.)
And that long episode sucked. TOS and TNG worked because there were new stories every week except for the occasional 2 parters. If a story sucks there’s hope that next week would be better.
5:50 The aliens were most definitely not animals. Janeway had a conversation with them. They were sentient.
xxTheFlyingPigxx scientists are able to have basic forms of conservation with dolphins but dolphins are still animals.
@@Lyoko012345 taken that literally - WE are animals. Besides these aliens weren't having "basic" conversations. They were demanding justice and retribution for their murdered comrades. They have the technology to open spatial rifts. Just because their language couldn't be interpreted by the UT doesn't mean they were animals. They were clearly intelligent
Matt M that maybe true but you also have to consider the circumstances the equinox was in. They didn’t have a delta quadrant native to help them find friendly civilizations and out posts like voyager did. They had to do what they needed to survive. Are the lives of those you are in charge of less important than an alien life form with questionable intelligence? Also Dolphins are still intelligent creatures.
Let me put it into perspective. You and a group of people are stranded on a deserted island. There is no eatable food on the island nor fish in the water. The group looks to you as their leader to make the tough decisions. Suddenly a pod of dolphins starts to swim extremely close to the island. You’re people are starving and you have a choice to make. Respect that dolphins are intelligent creatures and leave them be or kill the dolphins and feed your people. What choice are you going to make?
@@Lyoko012345 I understand what you're saying but you're making a false equivalence. It was crystal clear that the aliens were not like dolphins or other animals. They had language. They created technology to open spatial rifts. They could reason and argue that they wanted revenge for the death of their colleagues. The equinox crew tried to rationalize what they did by calling the aliens "creatures" but Janeway wasnt having it. She knew they were beings just like the humans.
The situation was more like being on a desert island with a group of people and you find ANOTHER group of people and they are the only food source. The reason Janeway got so angry was that the Equinox crew were killing living people, not the equilivent of animals.
Matt M New research suggests that dolphins intelligence and language is on par with humanity we just lack the technology needed to fully communicate with them.
Also the Aliens ability to open rifts is more a fact of their biology not technology. It’s this biology that allowed them to be used as fuel.
Further more murders (flocks) of crows have also been known to seek revenge against those who wronged them.
So no it wouldn’t be like killing one group of humans to feed another.
Thus we are back to the dolphin analogy.
DS9 wasn't everyone's cup of tea? It was my mug of raktajino, or bloodwine.
Damage had an excellent sub textual meaning. Archer and his crew used to be exactly like those friendly aliens, so in a way, he has to confront and destroy his old self
It started out as a Black Hole but later evolved into a supernova
The captain of the Equinox could live with it. He could, live with it.
Lol. I see what you did there!
I think Tuvok and Chakotay could live with it. They both could, live with it.
P Tuvix wont be given that option
Spanos, delete that ENTIRE personal log.
Spanos essentially killing some animals for survival that’s not much to live with I’ve done that.
Dave normally does good episode reviews, but this one was horrendous. I'm honestly wondering if Dave really watched the Equinox episode. At the very least, it must have been a long time since he saw it, because he gets literally everything wrong.
The aliens harvested by the Equinox crew for fuel are not comparable to animals. The episode clearly establishes they are sentient intelligent beings, with a level of advancement fully on par with humans. In fact, they are so advanced they can damage and destroy star ships with just their bodies. The reason they don't have comparable mechanical technology to the federation has is because they don't need it. Their own bodies serve the same purpose.
This was clearly shown in part 2 of the Equinox, in which the Voyager crew works out a deal with the aliens to get them to stop attacking Voyager in exchange for helping them hunt down the Equinox. How on earth can Dave claim the aliens are not intelligent in light of this?
Furthermore, the idea that the episode presents a straight forward black and white moral case for right and wrong is absurd. Janeway's moral convictions are severely tested, and in significant ways, she fails the tests. What happens is she becomes so determined to catch Equinox that she actually compromises her own morals do so. A good example is when she captures a member of the equinox crew. In an attempt to get him to reveal information, she actually opens an alien portal in the room in order to let an alien murder him if he doesn't talk, and only intervention by Chakotay prevents the murder from being carried out. Later on, she makes a deal with the the aliens to stop their attacks on Voyager in exchange for promising to hand them the Equinox, even though she know the aliens are going to kill the entire Equinox crew.
Far from being depicted as a moral paragon, Janeway is depicted as a fanatic, so obsessed with revenge for Ransom's immoral acts that she commits several immoral acts of her own in the process of tracking him down. It humanized her in a way few Star Trek shows had ever done with their captains, with the exception of DS9.
Look I understand I'm pretty much the only person on the planet who thinks Voyager was the best Star Trek series (Even though I hated the finale episodes) I have no problem with the majority of trekkies who didn't like it anywhere nearly as much. But Dave's review failed basic fact-checking on what the Equinox episode actually contained. His review contained so many blatant falsehoods that there is no way what he said can be considered valid criticism. You really let me down here, Dave. Do better next time.
Spot on. I think he has truck with the Janeway character and seeing his latest videos about Brie Larson, feminism and general anti-SJW stuff he wanted to criticise her at the expense of being accurate and fair.
Agreed Voyager is actually my fav of the series's and actually the "goodie too shooes" vibe aka being strict to prime directive didn't bother me....furthermore they actually adress that issue and said because they were so far from home from the alpha quadrant is why they needed to have the principles on a tight leach and not allow themselves to bend or break the major rules (some acceptions apply but it's why janeway strictly wanted to follow the prime directive so religiously)
This is the first of this guy's videos that I've seen and it's not left a very positive impression on me for the reasons you've stated. Having watched these episodes of Voyager a few times myself, it was hard to agree with any of the points that were being made. As you mentioned in your comment, it is very well established that the alien species is sentient (and intelligent enough for Janeway to have a conversation with them!) and the majority of Dave's arguments here fall apart immediately if you disregard his absurd comparison with other animals. Poor effort.
@@spinstartshere exactly!! They were like gods or deities or something like that to the alien species that could communicate and summon them with the special device
I actually have to agree with this comment. I have these episodes on my DVR and I was just watching them when RUclips recommended this video (spooky).
Voyager dealt with a lot of difficult issues. One of the first episodes was about someone being trapped in what in our world would be the ICU and facing the possibility that their life would never be the same. That is a very real and terrifying issue that many face today and still resonates with me after all these years.
I do remember this episode and I do remember being revolted by Janeway's actions. She was so naive and self righteous
I guess the promotion to Admiral and sticking her behind a desk could be considered a punishment.
Saying that though I would have liked to have seen Janeway as the Fleet Admiral in Picard rather than the one they picked who's anger was more based on her knowing that she only got the job because he didn't want it.
I was pretty revolted by Ransom’s actions too.
She's actually just a hypocrite in a few episodes too
People just don't understand Janeway as a character... You're missing the point about why she so over-reacted to Ransom's actions: she was afraid that she would have done the same thing in his place. In order to survive with her sanity in the Delta quadrant, she leaned on the ideals of the Federation. When she encountered another Starfleet captain whom had apparently done away with these ideals, her entire mental support system was threatened.
I personally love the character of Janeway. I don't know if it's just because she was a woman, but it always seemed like people would criticize her for her failings when other (male) characters were praised for being awesome in spite of their failings. Her actions in this episode are completely in keeping with her established character in my mind, even though she went off the deep end a bit. Even Chakotay realized how intense she was being and countermanded her orders. So are you criticizing the character, or the writing? If it's the character, it's important to keep in mind the intense stress she was under day by day just trying to keep her crew alive, regardless of the state of her ship. How many of us would handle the weight of that responsibility without buckling under it now and then?
" I don't know if it's just because she was a woman, but it always seemed like people would criticize her for her failings when other (male) characters were praised for being awesome in spite of their failings" I think you hit the nail on the head here. He won't come out and say it (because he'd lose the mask of 'respectibility') but he's probably not a fan of women or at least assertive and independent women. Notice his videos have a negative slant towards feminism and women that are more outspoken and confident? Unfortunately he's just part of a big group of content creators that pander to the angst felt by MRA types about feminism and the like because they feel threatened by it.
I am a huge Janeway fan, although his argument has me questioning that now. However, I hated her in every season finale, she always went way off the deep end and was a total lunatic in the season finale's to the point where she and Chacotay would come to (verbal) blows. They even riffed on that problem in the series finale where Janeway chose to make sure Chacotay was completely onboard this time.
@@TalentSpotter83 - I liked her as Captain. Do not have any issues with her command representation in the show at all. And this is from myself who does turn his nose up at recent feminism also. As recent feminism has arrived with anger. Like many recent activist groups evolving. However a big fan of independent powerful women such as her character. Janeway was a hero (or heroine as I reckon it sounds tougher/sexier) with faults and was no Mary Sue. She fits into the Star Trek world like a glove. I watch all the ST shows and cannot pick a favourite really. Caveat: Although I do find STD distant, annoying and just not my cup of tea.
Janeway was an interesting character, I agree.
@@TalentSpotter83 Part of the reason why women are criticized more for failings, esp. moral ones, is because women have been idealized quite a lot in the past. That doesn't leave a lot of room for being a human.
i hate myself for hating Voyager back in the day, i love watching it all now, i even enjoyed watching Enterprise before that.... ANYTHING is amazing compared to Discovery
That’s cuz discovery isn’t Star Trek
Don't u mean the Michael Burnam show?...about Michael Burnam?
Completely agree
Yes, I agree - any show in my opinion is better than Discovery. Voyager is a breath of fresh air.
STD being worse does not make VOY good, but I understand what you mean.
No one tell Dave that dolphins were an active part of Star Fleet, often serving as navigational specialists aboard Star Fleet ships.
They did consider including whales on the Enterprise D, so dolphins wouldn't be too much of stretch.
Deep Space Nine did a far better job with moral decisions, gray areas, and situations that still feel wrong years after watching them and thinking through it. Whole episodes dedicated to horrible topics like war, traitors, deserters, PTSD, civil rights, political oppression, social unrest, and so many others that would be handled very differently nowadays. I admire Janeway as a captain in some ways, maybe even as a person, but I admire Sisko in every way possible, both as a man of honor and a captain who's willing to do what needs to be done. Hell, I understand the captain of the Equinox far more after thinking about all of the times other Starfleet captains bent the rules and their own moral boundaries in order to survive or continue the mission. In fact, since you mentioned In the Pale Moonlight as a good example of this ideology, I think Sisko already said it best himself.
"So, I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all... I think I can live with it... and if I had to do it all over again, I think I would. Garak was right about one thing: a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the alpha quadrant, so I will learn to live with it... because I can live with it."
I find it kinda funny that he said all that then died at the end of the next season(before you say anything, yes, I realize he didn't actually die he just lost his corporeal form and joined his mother's family).
well what do you expect from a show that was plagiarized from Babylon 5.
Only the initial pitch. The plotlines were generally all new stuff (although some character names seem reused - Dukat? Leeta? anyone?)
@@chrissonofpear3657
Still kinda shit to turn down Strazinski's pitch, only to go go and make their own version.
Jonathan Parker ds9 was a space station not a ship
Thought provoking, of course, and I agree that Voyager was clearly inferior to Deep Space Nine. (Quick note, many of the cast on BOTH shows were excellent actors, so it's nothing against any of them, per se.)
However, you're shockingly wrong about the Equinox story, and not once, but twice.
First, the creatures you dismiss as “no smarter than dolphins” - the corpses of which Equinox uses for fuel - are depicted as possessing complex language and communication skills, and being capable of organizing and executing large-scale, prolonged collective actions. True, they didn't sip coffee with Janeway in the Ready Room, but they were sentient beings possessed of culture and self-awareness. Janeway recognized their exploitation and killing as a form of extreme species racist-esque murder. They didn't look humanoid, so the Equinox crew rationalized their extermination. THAT was the POINT. If circumstances are allowed to dictate our morality, this is what we can become. The episode asks us to ponder the question of moral absolutes, human fallibility, and fidelity to our own hopes and aspirations. You paint it as black and white, but that's because you haven't thought it through. Janeway sized up the situation and saw it for what it was...a former Starfleet crew that had become a criminal gang. She acted accordingly. It was harsh, but look at what they were doing....they were MURDERING innocent people. PEOPLE, just so they could survive. Just because those people had fewer limbs and different skin, they didn't deserve the ovens. (One wonders as well to what degree intelligence bequeaths a right to kill “lesser creatures” at all, but that's for another time.)
Which brings around the second way you are incorrect in your judgement ...this is actually a great Voyager story. You know this, at some level, because you fell for it. The story deliberately depicts the Equinox captain and crew as decent, understandable people. We strongly empathize with their plight, and we see how desperate and weary they had become. They could easily be us. In your case, it seems to me, you followed them down the same perfectly-relatable path and arrived in the same place. I understand. Now you have to do five- to-ten for manslaughter and conspiracy - welcome back to Earth.
Exactly. Not to mention, now Earth is at war with an alien species, who only has to destroy that one device they use to summon them, in order to completely control where and when they attack anyone on earth. They would be the most hated crew in history, even if the Federation won the war.
Think about how they could've communicated with the aliens. If they evolved in Fludic space or wherever, there had to be an ecosystem there. If they told them what they wanted, they may have been able to provide them with actual animals to use for fuel for their warp drive, or perhaps the wormholes or fissures they were seen opening could've been used for travel to earth.
salaciousBastard,
Two great, imaginative points I hadn’t even come close to considering...
Tuvix has entered the chat
Inferior? I disagree entirely, they are totally different shows in terms of what they are about and I don’t think they should be compared. If you want a long serious series about politics and religion, do DS9. If you’re looking for adventure, teamwork and variety, do VOY
@@allank534
Fair point. I probably should have chosen some less harsh and more descriptive than “inferior.” Still, I think there was an internal tension between whatever forces were at work that led to, for example, an actor feeling ill from her hyper-constraining, air-restricting costume and the forces that insisted on writing a female captain as a whole, exceptionally competent, inspiring and complex character. And I think that conflict held the show back…it’s pretty amazing that the show was as good as it turned out to be.
Thank you for this, sir. I always felt irritated by Janeway and her self-righteousness. You said it much better than I ever could. Though I must say that Picard's grandstanding in TNG also irritated me to no end. Picard and Janeway were two peas in a pod in my opinion.
It’s not self righteousness it’s called doing what’s right
At least it was miles better than Discovery.
It's hard to do worse than STD to be honest.
Long time Trek fan, and I'm enjoying Discovery.
Not a fan of TNG or VOY, though.
Big fan of TOS...bits of DS9 and bits if ENT.
@@snake56 Trust me, they will make a worse Star Trek TV series if they continue with this PC bullshit culture.
@Dac DT As long as Star Trek is under the control of a Bad Robot employee (Alex Kurtzman) each new spin-off is guaranteed to be as bad as STD.
@@kirk1701 Oh, so YOU'RE the fan!
Voyager is pretty silly. DS9 is darker, grittier, and more realistic. But you have to remember that they were right on top of each other release wise. Im sur alot of fans were growing tired of dark and gritty DS9 for season after season and welcomed a more relaxed and lighthearted show.
Besides Voyager had plenty of dark moments; like when Paris and Kim are on the prison in space, the Hirogen used Voyager as a training ship and the crew as living targets, or when Chakotay gets brainwashed to kill an alien species he had never met.
The whole show was about staying true to Starfleet's ideals, even in the face of overwhelming odds and a dark and gritty Delta Quadrant. USS Voyager had to be a bastion of safety and security. A place where the audience didnt have to worry too often about the dark realism of the Delta Quadrant. Perhaps that makes Voyager a bad show, or at least a missed opportunity. It is still a great show to watch and enjoy for episode after episode. It's lighter tone makes it a joy to binge, whereas DS9 can get dark and solemn for multiple episodes and you need to take a break.
Voyager may not bring you to tears, but it will keep your attention and tell some good stories along the way.
Just dont break Warp 10. Ever.
A lot of the earlier seasons had stories about the characters that were as dark as DS9. A lot of people like Dave seem to equate the last two seasons of DS9 with how the show always was for some reason.
That warp 10 episode was stupid, like randomly "evolves" into a lizard for some reason, and also can be fixed with a simple injection...
@@TheJadeFist The thing about Threshold is the first fifteen minutes are great. It's when Paris brakes the warp barrier it suddenly goes downhill.
@@pferreira1983 I completely agree, it started off good, but it took a left a turn for it sure.
@@TheJadeFist Yea you could say that. A shame because all the Paris stuff with him wanting to accomplish something and him testing the Warp 10 theory was good stuff. Strangely enough the story idea for that episode was from Michael De Luca, the president of New Line Cinema and then Dreamworks.
You lost me when you compared Ransom to Archer. Archer stole a piece of technology, and yes stranded good people. But NOT just to save his own crew. The survival of his entire species was at stake in that scenario, and the creatures Ransom were killing had language, and at least a sense of justice in their own minds. Thats intelligence. Grinding up an arguably sentient species for fuel would certainly be contradictory to Starfleets mission. And I think the fact that Janeway has worked so hard to adhere to the principle of Starfleet, while Ransom casually tossed them aside as soon as they became inconvenient is part of what made this an great episode. Yes, DS9 was a better show. It covered new ground for Star Trek in alot of ways, and gave us a compelling on going story. But Voyager had many strengths going for it too. This is another example of someone who is so intent on not liking the show they will refuse to infer or use any amount of imagination to resolve any conflict in your mind about the shows arc.
One thing I find odd is Dave Cullen completely describes what was wrong with janeway and the voyager show...cult like devotion to the prime directive and how the show would remain jolly, decedent and clean..every episode the ship would be back in top top shape nothing would have an effect on the lost crew and starship. Now...I did like equinox episode and voyager overall (star trek was doing a different thing back then)...what I find so bizarre...is how dave the reviewer constantly knocks star trek discovery for being more real world, depressing, and dark. Seems like he has complete opposite set of criticisms when it comes to both shows. I find voyager could been better recognize the faults but like the show. Also like discovery for trying new things. But I just find it odd he flip flops when criticizing the two shows.
Dolphins have language. Chimps can be taught sign language. They're still not human.
"Not just to save his own crew". Star Trek spent 2 movies demonstrating that the communist "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is bullshit. Human life is not additive. An act is not justified because it saves a billion lives if it's not justified to save a single life.
Ransom's responsibility was for his crew, not space aliens.
I'd probably add to Janeway's motivation that she had to make hard decisions to stick to her principles, but was ultimately rewarded for her efforts. That kind of thing would really reinforce her command style. I'd say voyager always being in good condition as exceptional work by the crew and captain rather than writing convince.
@@Hiraghm To be fair, most western societies don't eat dolphins or chimps, and their use in medical and cosmetics research is EXTREMELY controversial, with increasing pushback all the time.
Ransom didn't just toss aside Starfleet principles because they were inconvenient. Remember they were near death with all resources depleted. It was necessary for survival. After that then they continued to kill the creatures to get home faster, but I suspect it is because they realized that their ship is not equipped to get home by conventional means or they would again find themselves near death.
There is a difference between killing fish... and killing intelligent life forms that have the ability to communicate.
I agree this alien are inteligent. They dont like delfins, much like stone age human
I love your analysis, Dave. I happen to LOVE Voyager, one of my favorites of the 4 modern series. But you're right. I think the sanitation was an attempt to carry over from TNG, while DS9 took on the true dark story arcs and deeper character development. While you're right, and it's sad, I still enjoyed at least 75% of the Voyager episodes and most of the characters. It just wasn't as biting as it could have been.
Well one can draw a line between enjoying something and it being good. I can enjoy the Transformer movies, but I can admit they are utter schlock.
Don't forget that the only "deep" Star Trek series, DS9, was simply copying the premise of Babylon 5, a show which the Trek writers blatantly PLAGIARISED, even down to the FUCKING NAMES, for GOD'S SAKE.
Deep Space Nine definitely had the multi episode political and personal storyline threads down but it rather lacked in exploration and encounters with the new and unknown (because the series did not focus on that).
That is what I liked about Voyager, exploring new worlds and encountering new species/civilizations, and other things in space. It just ended up doing little with them which I found rather disappointing.
It also relied a bit to much on the Borg to the point that it was deconstructing them.
@@Foebane72 Which names?
@@StevenErnest Off the top of my head: Leeta/Lyta, Weyoun/Neroon, Shakaar/G'Kar, Dukat/Dukhat - I mean, there's not that many, but they're bleedin' obvious. I mean, seriously?
You forgot one thing: the species practically declared war on the equinox and were capable of negotiation. It's a huge part of the episode, how could you miss it !? When is the last time you saw a school of fish do that?
lol
@Jim SunFlowa_HellRaiser this was a couple months ago, can you review the point?
When do you see a school of fish do that? When you look at the so called "cleaning stations" maintained by the so called "cleaner fish" from the genus Labroides, where even predatory fish congregate and do a specific squence of movements signalizing that they won't attack the cleaner fish and are in need of cleaning their skin and gills from parasites.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaning_station
His argument is basically "its us or them".
Ben Sisko would have killed those things for fuel and he would have gotten both ships home fast with fewer casualties. If it wasn't for some future Admiral Janeway nonsense it would have taken Captain Janeway decades to get home and she would have lost half her crew in the process.
What if what you see in voyager is just what Janeway put in her logs. That way when they got home she became an admiral rather than on trial.
What if logs are designed so they cannot be faked, backed up by interior video? Including footage like you suggest would have been _great_ TV, from a production standpoint.
she forgot to delete the Tuvix entry lol
On the note of Bellana keeping the ship perfect, If the environments of Voyager slowly degraded over the full series it would have been a wonderful touch. It could start looking squeaky clean, then after a few episodes there are some scruff marks, some lights eventually stop working, cracks appearing, and by the end of the show full decks could have been sealed off due to being unsafe or unable to support life. Sure it would have made the show seem "ugly" but it would have been fitting.
No need to have entire decks inoperable... but an overall "scruffy" look would have been appropriate. Because, after all, it's not worthwhile to invest *that* much effort in making everything look "spic and span" when the Kazon are going to commandeer your entire ship an episode or two later.
Why would it degrade when they are in an area of space full of planets with resources and species to trade with?? I loved the fact that VOY was actually upgraded along its journey and utilised new technologies to get home quicker.
If you are on a journey through space for 70+ years, you better keep it squeaky clean and in perfect working condition by all means and as long as possible. Or else you die. But yes, hull breaches on multiple decks and fireworks on the bridge in the middle of an episode and not a single scratch is visible in the closing scene 20 minutes later - that always bothered me.
In The Pale Moonlight really showed you how *good* a Garak is at espionage and statecraft. This is probably my favorite episode of DS9 as it shows you a glimpse into what Garak used to do, and how far people are willing to go just to not let the Dominion (aka the bad guys) win.
With regards to the Enterprise episode Damage Captain Archer had the moral high-ground, no matter how distasteful it was. His mission was to save BILLIONS of lives (and I'm sure Starfleet sent someone back to look for that ship after the fact, with luck their delay was only several months.) Captain Janeway never had BILLIONS of lives, Federation lives, to worry about. She could have landed the ship or a suitable M-class planet or found an advanced, friendly, civilization for the crew to join and live out their lives. Yes it would have been sad to never see their friends and families again but they would have no right to strand someone else merely to save themselves- especially when their lives aren't even in that much danger.
I have to say the dimension shifting aliens looked sentient to me- so I can't excuse killing them to get home. If they were mere animals like cows or even space cats for that matter it would be a different story but I honestly don't believe they were mere animals. Could animals mount a well thought out counter-attack?
BirdOPrey5 Janeway had the opportunity early on, to settle on that planet from The 37’s. The apparently had a civilization similarly as advanced as Federation Earth. IMHO, the writer would have made a much more interesting series, by having Voyager use the 37’s planet as a “homebase”, to explore the Delta Quandrant from.
This would have given them a safe (and realisitic) place to repair damage, etc. But nope, the advanced HUMAN planet in the Delta Quadrant was mentioned again the rest of any of the Trek series.
@BirdOPrey5 That right, Janeway never had BILLIONS of lives. In Year of Hell, it was TRILLIONS.
Saying Archer had the moral high ground is equivalent to saying that the ends justify the means. Enshrining that is not only very, very dangerous, it also ridicules the moral conundrum the episode aimed to illustrate.
@@Edax_Royeaux To be honest, per the Prime Directive, she shouldn't (and wouldn't) have intervened if it didn't directly affect Voyager. It wasn't the other species she cared about, it was only Voyager. (I assume you meant the episode with the time ship, not Year of Hell.)
@@Alexander_Kale Well at some point the ends do justify the means.
Completely idiotic argument disregards they were sentient and could communicate
But again in a life or death situation it can be hard to hold onto your moral compass. You have to look at the bigger picture. Some times you have to ask yourself; are the lives of those you are in charge of, the lives of the people who trust you and look up to you less important than the lives of an alien species with questionable intelligence?
To quote a different space oriented franchise “the ability to speak doesn’t make you intelligent.”
You and a group of people are stranded on a deserted island. There is no eatable food on it. There are no fish in the water. The group looks to you as their leader to make the tough decisions. Suddenly a pod of Dolphins starts to swim extremely close to the island. You’re people are starving and you have a choice to make. Respect that the dolphins are intelligent creatures and leave them be or kill the dolphins and feed your people. Which choice are you going to make?
Daemon I was thinking the same thing when Dave described them as "space-rats". That being said... I could live with killing a dozen to save my entire crew, sentient or not.
@@The.Breakfast.Burrito One thing I find odd is Dave Cullen completely describes what was wrong with janeway and the voyager show...cult like devotion to the prime directive and how the show would remain jolly, decedent and clean..every episode the ship would be back in top top shape nothing would have an effect on the lost crew and starship. Now...I did like equinox episode and voyager overall (star trek was doing a different thing back then)...what I find so bizarre...is how dave the reviewer constantly knocks star trek discovery for being more real world, depressing, and dark. Seems like he has complete opposite set of criticisms when it comes to both shows. I find voyager could been better recognize the faults but like the show. Also like discovery for trying new things. But I just find it odd he flip flops when criticizing the two shows.
cows are sentient... they are not sapient, however.
@Daemonollama78 Dolphins can communicate to. so can gorilla's an many great apes and lets be real Sentience is a minimalist way of Defining the ability to perceive subjectively. I would argue cows can feel perceive and experience subjectively in there own capacity. it does not be any standard stand to reason that killing a cow for sustenance is Murder. dispite what some would say. his argument about there nature has ground to stand on. there's no proof those creatures are anymore then animals A universal translation matrix can literally make out communication with mathematical algorithms and rythmical tones by that alone it would sudgest that a calculater or a Synthesizer is Alive and Sentient. Ref:Enterprise. lets not Forget that in the Star Trek universe there exists a probe created by who knows that can comunicate with Whales. REF:Voyage Home. it doesnt mean whales are anything more then animals.
Actually, if you are looking for a counter point to the whole lost in space being a non problem. Bare with me, Neelix, He had a ton of information up to a point in the Delta Quadrant, Realistically, Voyager had only X years after the Necrit Expanse to survive, with already established superior technology and a crew of excellent members in there position, Seven practically knows everything, Torres was an excellent engineer, her profession being well established. Also You missed a dozen times where Voyager was desperate and thought and fought theyre way out of it. The Void, Scorpion, Workforce and back to basics are all examples of desperation being beaten by drive to survive and continue home.
I like Voyager, Janeway was a badass captain who fought for her crew and kicked ass in tense discussion and combat situations, like Macroisim and the famous bully speech to Culla and many others, I fell in love with all the characters aside from Kes, sorry Kes.
She also had salamander babies with the ship's pilot.
Dave, yup it would have been nice to see Voyager take more damage and have to deal with a falling apart ship.
yup. in an on going fashion, not just once in awhile with a quick resolution.
They always have a full compliment of photon torpedoes and shuttles.
I think the creators originally wanted the same thing. Unfortunately the studio suits didn't give a big enough budget for this :(
Year of Hell gave us a brief look at how things could have been..
Not really. You can't tell good stories from week to week with a ship that's falling apart. It gets boring.
@@@pferreira1983
On the other hand, I found the Voyager show rather dull and boring, precisely because it was so pristine and nothing seemed to have any lasting effect. Voyager had a plot armour a mile thick, and that robbed the series of any kind of tension or drama.
"I don't see them as making contributions to philosophy"
"We can agree that what Ransom did was awful."
I am afraid you will have to pick one of the two. Either they killed animals, in which case there is no argument here, because Star Trek Era humans are still farming cattle - even hunting is hinted upon now and again. Your assertion that they are all vegetarians is simply not true.
OR Ransom did indeed commit serial murder on an intelligent species, and they had every reason to send their equivalent of law enforcement/tribal warriors after him.
If anything, throughout the episode, the creatures do not act like animals, the implication that they are in fact sentient is absolutely there.
Besides, the idea that holding on to your principles in comfort is easy is actually the point of the episode. It is easy to be brave when no one is threatening your life after all. The test to your character and to your believes ONLY comes when the going gets tough, and if you cannot be bothered to hold on to them in THAT situation, then maybe preaching them in times of peace is somewhat hypocritical.
Meaning Janeway was right for a change. shocking, I know...
@Maintenance Renegade - And your philosophy is a great way of pissing off everyone and getting your entire civilization killed in a universe full of spacefaring races. Committing mass murder because its convenient for you to use them as fuel is the kind of thing that puts you on the shit list of everyone, at minimum, the people whos friends and familiy you killed will be coming after you, just like they did after the Equinox.
@Maintenance Renegade - Thing is, one of the reasons the Romulans and Cardassians are at least willing to talk, and the Klingons ended up as an ally to the Federation, is because they can reliably count on the humans not being assholes, and not do this kind of shit most of the time. Heck, there is a good chance the Romulans would have joined the dominion in fucking up the alpha quadrant despite Sisko-s efforts, if they did not see the Federation as a much more managable rival power they can live with.
That is not to say Janway was not a self-righteous, grandstanding prick, and that you should not consider your options for putting away those high minded morals if there is a chance those will lead to your untimely death. But in general you should not go around acting like someone who does mass murder at the drop of a hat the moment it is convenient for you, because that is the sort of thing that gets a lot of people, aliens and your own kind alike, pissed at you and see you as a prime threat that needs to dealt with pronto.
@Maintenance Renegade Do you even realize that you can justify every attempted genocide in human history by arguing like that? We get an advantage from them dying, and they cannot effectively fight us, so we can murder them at our leasure? Is that really the point you want to make?
I think the turks would be rather relieved to hear that. Or what about China invading Tibet, after all, who cares about tibetans...
Besides, in regards to impractical Federation regulations, Soldiers today can absolutely be prosecuted for murder, and murder this is should the creatures prove to be sophonts.
I'm guessing you were never homeless. I was raised in a high moral family. When the economy tanked I lost everything and ended up homeless. Out in the woods by myself. I ended up sneaking up on campers' campsite and stealing their food. Eventually I was able to get a job and pull myself out of it. Do I feel guilty? At first I did now not so much. So I know what somewhat what Ransom is going through.
@@timesthree5757 The question is rather impactful, I agree. Either you hold true to your morals and principles and accept that this may result in your suffering and/or death - or you cause suffering and/or death to others.
The thing is, when confronted with your deeds after, if your answer was the latter, you can either own up to what you did or you can try to rationalize it and weasel out of it. If your answer was the latter, then you did what you did out of pure egotism, you did it because you saw your life as more precious than theirs.
In the Federation moral framework, that is something you cannot do - hell, even in ours this might land you in hot waters.
No matter how much battle damage Voyager took, or how many shuttlecraft they lost, they were always good to go next episode. It's amazing how quickly Janeway abandons her principles in order to conduct a vendetta against Ransom, to the point of allowing one of his crew to nearly be killed during an interrogation. The Equinox did seem out of place, scarred and battle-torn, while Voyager looks clean and new. The ethical decisions Janeway has to deal with are always high-minded, ivory tower questions. Even when they were in food-rationing in the 1st season, their situation was always more inconvenient than anything else. Too bad Ransom chose to die (a reformed hero), he might have spiced the show up a bit.
He had to die to appease the aliens. They wanted blood and might have turned their attention back to Voyager otherwise.
This is because a period of weeks or months can pass between episodes, more than enough time to make repairs!
I'm sorry has everyone forgotten that Janeway killed Tuvix to get Tuvok and Neelix back?
Can't remember exactly , maybe it was DS9. There was a transport accident and several crew member became trapped on a planet in the past. But a method was devised to not only bring them back but enabled the decedents now around a hundred to survive.
Janeway also gave biological weapons to a nation that they were in a defacto state of war with.
Janeway also gave holo-technology away to the Hirogen, made a deal with the Borg, and stole a time travel device from the Romulans to alter history. She is just as capable of making questionable decisions when faced with a problem...she just likes to act high and mighty when others break the rules.
@@Rometiklan But giving the holo tech to the Hirogen lead to much less dead individuals, so was that not a good decision? That was while they still used the holo deck and had no idea these characters could develop consciousness.
@@Fidi987 I respectfully disagree. In the short term, perhaps Janeway did avert many immediate deaths by giving holo-technology to the Hirogen. While this appears well-intentioned, what are the long term repercussions of giving away Federation technology? Not only is she interferring in the internal affairs of another culture, Janeway could be shifting the balance of power that could destabilize the entire quadrant. In real life terms, what if we were to give a third world country the tech to forge metal? Such knowledge, in of itself, is innocuous and could make a better life for the tribe. Could they find a way to weaponize such knowledge and gain an advantage over their warring neighbours? Given enough time, yes. For me, it's too great of a risk to just be handing away tech.
Star Trek Deep Space Nine is personally my favourite Star trek show but Star Trek Voyager was just a frustrating watch, decent but never really hit a lot of the high marks I want in Star Trek. Janeway could've been an interesting Captain with the moral quandaries she had to face and I'm glad you mentioned how pristine the voyager ship is, it would've illustrated how good of an engineer B'Elanna Torres is by how she keeps that ship running with alien tech, scraps and parts, heck, seeing the ship Voyager eventually abandoned and the crew have to use a new ship would've been interesting to see.
It would have been a nice touch if, over the 7 seasons, Voyager began to change in appearance as the crew had to adapt new technology they found along the way.
@@GeorgeyTheApe Yeah that would've been cool, but I do recall some Borg tech was implemented for Seven of Nine.
Imagine this: halfway through the second season, Voyager is attacked and successfully fends off the attackers...BUT, her port warp nacelle is severed from the rest of the ship and destroyed. Now they are truly stranded. So....Torres uses some of the arcane knowledge she picked up at the academy and leads a recovery team over to the drifting hulk of the alien attacker's ship. They fight their way through the ship to the engineering section and secure the ship. Then they sever a warp nacelle from that ship, Voyager tractors it and beams the away team back. Then over the next few episodes, they reverse engineer this alien warp tech and attach the nacelle to Voyager's stub pylon. Torres then has to become a miracle worker to make an imbalanced warp field work, but she does it. Just as a new alien fleet looms, Voyager warps away and actually attains a slightly higher warp factor than their pursuers and escapes. The rest of the show features this odd amalgam Voyager with one mismatched nacelle. That would have been awesome IMO.
That would of been great seeing her all preachy in season 1 then by the end of season 7 going full mirror universe.
@@TheAutistWhisperer Yeah, the ship had quite bit of Borg tech on it at the end of the series. You can see the dark gray patches with green lights on them.
once janeway made a deal with the freaking borg just to get her crew home a little faster she lost any moral high ground she potentially had.
I think your wrong. There wasnt much she could do play nice with the Borg when she had the high ground or risk everything in hopes they didnt get caught. Everything in that deal benefited Voyager. Plus the billions of drones that would of been lost due to 8472. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
It was also to save the galaxy from an even bigger threat
@@NitpickingNerd I agree she thought that, but, is there really that much daylight between seeking perfection by assimilating or destroying everyone and everything in the universe, and 'purging it of all life'? either way, lots of people die, and only one set of people are in charge
@@kingzgaming4031 Janeway butt her nose into a war she knew nothing about. On the face of it 8472 were the bigger threat then we learn that they were merely defending themselves. In the end Janeway saved the Borg and led to countless millions getting assimilated afterwards, all so her crew could get home. There was a later episode were an alien calls her out on this and it's glorious.
of course there's a big difference. Borg drones are still alive
“Never truly reached its full potential.” What rot is this, top rated, most watched on Netflix ahead of all other Star Trek shows.
I think what you fail to understand is that so long as a Federation starship has power and convertible mass it has unlimited resources. There is matter even in interstellar space, after all that is a lot of what the Bussard collectors are for - funneling atoms into a storage chamber. This matter is then dumped into the replication system - assuming it has sufficient power and - eureka, whatever you want it to be. Food, clothes, oxygen, spare parts, hull sections whatever you need. There have been times that they needed difficult (read not impossible) items to replicate and when given the choice they prefer conventional methods of gathering these items, but they can be replicated. Dilithium was one such material, but as early as Star Trek The Voyage Home we see the Enterprise crew - re-crystallize dilithium on a Klingon Bird of Prey.
A starship that has a warp power core and auxiliary power in the form of fusion reactors and the mass to feed into replication system, they can build what they need as the putter along - even an endless number of photon torpedoes and shuttle craft. Dilithium was also abundant enough that in one episode they mined enough to last for the planned 70 year voyage - problem solved right there.
Time and distance were the hurdles for Voyager, not power and resources.
then why was the crew on replicator rations having to put up with Neelix's cooking? also removing all the critical and realistic survival elements facing an actual stranded spaceship (not to mention hitting the reset button every episode) removes any real challenge to the characters and makes for a boring and pointless show.
@@stargazerspark4499 It sounds from the various items in your reply that you are really not interested in a discussion, you just wanted to get this off of your chest. Part of the lure of Neelix cooking was the concept of a communal eating area for a crew cut off from their normal lives and connections. It was not needed for anyone except Neelix, who had no skill the ship needed to survive.
@@eatpoopoo I think people think that but there is no scientific or logical reason why that would be the case. An electron is going to orbit a carbon nucleus just as easily as whatever latinum is made of. However, we do hear that some compounds and items are more expensive to replicate. That would imply that the base material to do the replication from is so expensive as to be a break even or cost more to make latinum. We can make gold and diamonds in the real world but they are expensive, is an example.
If you don't stand by your principles when the going gets tough, then you're just pretending to hold those principles when times are easy.
You're not wrong, but it's just as important to realize what are true moral guidelines that are WORTH dying for, and what are just pretty words you say in safety to make yourself feel enlightened.
Picard and Kirk had a good way of separating the two.
The problem was the show never got truly "tough" and when it did, then circumstances became ever so conveniently easy for them to stick to said principles and suffer little if any major negative consequences. This is why DS9 was beloved for being far superior and the best of the Star Trek series because it was NOT a starship series flying off to a new world week to week. They were all based on stationary space station and had to make choices and live with the CONSEQUENCES of their actions. Not everything went smooth for our heroes:
-- The "good" priest that Kira was dating did NOT win election or promotion to lead priest ("vedek"?) on Bajor but the evil one whom she was constantly at odds with did. Also her boyfriend priest died, just to twist the knife for good measure.
-- Bajor did not join the Federation so it make Starfleet's actions more ... "complicated".
-- Starfleet actually lost control of DS9 station to the Dominion in general and Gul Dukat in particular--quite ... gul-ling ... indeed (Thank you, I'll be here all week. ;-) )
-- Starfleet soldiers were afraid during the war.
-- Nox lost a leg during the war and had to get a bionic replacement instead conveniently having a new one cloned and grafted back on.
-- Worf quit a very important Starfleet away mission to save his wife, was punished for it--including never being allowed on an away mission with her in the future--and the mission was a failure.
Choices were made and consequences were lived with. Too bad TPTB were too afraid of that for STAR TREK: VOYAGER.
"...you're just pretending to hold those principles when times are easy." ----> i'm not saying you're wrong... but civility is firmly grounded in pretense. Remove the pretense and chaos could easily take over. There are things that we all don't want to face and use some form of pretense to avoid it; gym rat, pot head, academic, anarchist, rule follower, etc.
@Jay Jeckel I like to think I'm not a cannibal, but am I'm really just pretending? On second thought, I think your statement is bullshit. Pretenders are the ones whom have already broken their principles like the politicians. You're not pretending to hold principles if your willing to break them in extreme circumstances. Principles are not a life and death issue that suddenly becomes fake when they are broken. In desperate times, many people will consume the final resource. That doesn't mean everyone is just pretending to be repulsed by cannibalism during easy times.
Jay, alas sometimes principles cannot stand against reality. eg. during WW2 in Burma (occupation by Japan), young local children were force to act as spies. In one incident, a group of special forces Brits on a raid encountered a 10 year old boy; they killed him, as not doing so would have meant their discovery. Scale this up and you have conventional bombing (highly inaccurate but deemed necessary at the time), then at the top of the moral quandry stack there's Hiroshima & Nagasaki, about which people will argue for days, but the reality is that without those acts, the war would have continued and a land invasion would have resulted in some 3M+ dead, including 250K+ Americans, death coming in ways often far worse than that from a nuke. There were also strategic reasons beyond merely defeating the Japanese (ie. Russia's rapid move into China).
Principles are little different to the modern leftist notion of tolerance, they don't work unless everyone is playing by the same rules; sometimes, reality in the form of war, starvation, the need just to survive, has no rules at all. Then you do what you have to do, simple as that. The universe does not have principles, it is indifferent to our fates.
If you really believe what you said, may I ask as a comparative point, do you believe women should have generally unrestricted access to abortion services? (I don't mean actually reply with your opinion btw, as that's your own business; rather, just think this through in your head) If so, why? (given how many potential lives have been ended since it was largely legalised across the western world, namely, *tens of millions*) And how far should it go? What about the modern demand for post-birth abortion? (yes that's now a thing, currently what would be known as child murder) If that's a step too far, why? How does passing through a birth canal slap a "human" label on the body? At what point does a principle (whatever that might be) suddenly kick in? I mention this example not because I expect you to have a specific opinion in either direction, rather because the only reason why this particular issue has become such a huge debate is because decades ago the principled *moral* argument against sex outside of marriage was destroyed in favour of sexual "freedom", especially among the young, doubly so among women. What once was a "principle" was deemed out of date, restrictive, etc., and so it was abandonded, moving the nature of the debate entirely in another direction, over an issue which technically never needed to even exist if the earlier standard hadn't been ditched. What were once such solid principles have been so dliuted that now the culture of the times seeks to normalise what has arisen in its stead and is now commonplace, the single parent (largely single mother) "family", despite the strong evidence for how damaging this new normal is for the future health and well being of children. We've created a new normal, a structure based on state dependence, and so the media, etc. lay down new principles to rationalise it, hence the modern concept of "entitlement" (aka state imposed slavery upon those who are forced to give up resources, handed over to those who've done nothing to earn them).
In other words, principles themselves are not fixed or absolute, they change over time. It's why the notion of hate speech and offense taking is so stupid. At one time it was considered offensive to suggest getting rid of slavery, before that an even worse notion of the poor having land ownerships rights (feudal serfdom, etc.) In some parts of the world right now it would be deemed offensive to suggest that underage sex is wrong, because the culture in question has a centuries old religious justification for it. And I could cite far worse examples.
What is a principle? Little more than a guideline we make for ourselves only because our current lives of comfort make them possible wherever we happen to live, shaped by who we are and how we've been raised. If you grew up somewhere else, such as Afghanisation, you would have very different principles, perhaps in this example believing that the practice of Bacha Bazi is perfectly acceptable (look it up), or FGM in Pakistan, etc. Lots of principles had to be ditched during WW2, including democracy itself. No principle can stand against the base need to survive, and most of those we cling to are imposed by the culture in which we're raised.
In the West, we constantly change our culture unwisely and then invent new principles to justify the changes; we don't have an educational foundation of ethics and philosophy that can create and sustain anything stronger. We got rid of God but didn't replace it with anything. It's why the likes of SJWs can so run amok even in a nation like the US that has a proper constitution.
Couldn't agree more Voyager always felt like a missed opportunity to explore the limits of 24th century federation/starfleet morals in a situation totally unique to what we had seen before. DS9 during its later seasons really captured this hopelessness and questionable actions at times and you could argue it was this war setting which helped it flourish. They should have had voyager flying apart at the seams with systems crashing and in need of upgrade with the crew under pressure to fix in order to survive in such a hostile domain. This would have let us accept the crew and see the real personalities/conflict come through. Such a pity John Ransom and his crew didn't get more air time as the two episodes with the equinox had more drama and realism that any other episode involving voyager and its near perfect ship/crew.
For me, Voyager is that sort of homely thing you go back to not because it has the best story or characters, but because it's familiar and accessible. I recognize the flaws in Janeway, and I'm perfectly accepting of them, because I don't take the show too seriously and just enjoy the interactions among the crew along their journey. One of my favorite two-part episodes is Fair Haven, and I love watching it a few times a year again and again.
Ahh man.. where do I start.. so you compare them to fish, and the need to survive and the need for food.
So; so only reason his crew were starving was because they put all their energy into getting home quicker, using their energy to enhance their warp drive.. they could have searched for other sources of energy or found a habitable world to settle. The crew were completely sel'fish'.. forgive the pun.
The species also clearly showed significant signs of intelligence throughout the episodes, in many various ways, joining to fight to protect their own race that were being killed (what fish would do that?!), finding the ship and were even able to communicate at our level when they started with "give us the equinox".. Janway was able to reason with them.. what animal can you reason with?
Your arguments are pointless Dave!!
nobody cares how clever magic space dolphins are in a life or death survival situation. at that point they're gonna end up on a plate or fodder for the warp engines.
@@stargazerspark4499 You'd care if you were on Earth, watching the court martial of Ransom and crew, when suddenly magic space dolphins pissed dafuq off at ALL humans popped into your living room and put your kids on a platter.
salaciousBastard you and a group of people are stranded on a deserted island. There is no eatable food on the island nor fish in the water. The group looks to you as their leader to make the tough decisions. Sudden a pod of dolphins starts to swim extremely close to the island. Your people are starving and you have a choice: respect that dolphins are intelligent and leave them be or kill the dolphins and feed your people. What choice do you make?
" THE
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
GOOD PEOPLE
AND
MONSTERS
IS THAT
MONSTERS DON'T SEE
THEMSELVES AS MONSTERS "
Sisko would punted Janeway
Sisko or some one smarter than Janeway , which let's face it isn't much of a task, would have either followed the prime directive and let the Khazan have the caretaker array as they would have had regardless of voyager showing up, or if they deemed it worth interfering, would have realized they could set bombs on a timer... and simply used the array to get home AND destroy it.
@@TheJadeFist sisko is the best simply because he will do anything for his crew, even if that means blowing the enemy up. He's also a LOT more practical as a captain and a lot more likable
@@corsaircarl9582 The man basically punched god, gotta give admire that audacity a little.
@@corsaircarl9582 Sisko could not even be a good butt warmer for Janeway's seat. Janeway was an accomplished science
officer as well as captain. Janeway was much more aggressive than Sisko. She would pursue the typical diplomatic
Star Fleet approach 1st (like any captain), but unlike Sisko, Archer and Picard, Janeway was quick with a decisive and
hard hitting response once a ruse, lack of cooperation or subterfuge was discovered. Janeway was flexible only to the
point of distastefulness...then arm torpedoes, lock phasers, shields to max...we're going in!!!
@@jeffharrison1090 Sisko punched Q.
Q never bothered him again.
Q tried to fuck Janeway, she didn't say no hard enough, he harrassed her for years.
Who's more decisive?
I disagree with your position on Insurrection. The inhabitants may not have been primitive or even indigenous, but both are irrelevant. The Federation *wants* not *needs* that planet and it’s resources, and the inhabitants made it their home before the Federation ever existed, having a prior claim to the land. The premise about forced relocation in the film is a valid one and stands on its own merit.
Will never get the Voyager hate. It is, to this day, is my favorite star trek series.
It's usually DS9 fanboys attacking it. They feel that DS9 is underrated, and because Voyager did better commercially they attack it.
Me too, it's the one that made me love the series and still my favorite
I love both shows. But DS9 was boring af in the first 2 seasons. But DS9 has some of the greatest characters in Star Trek. But I gotta admit, without The Dominion, DS9 wouldn't even be close to Voyager's level. But I personally like DS9 better even though Voyager has more good episodes than DS9 does. But DS9 has great episodes. Especially after season 4
I can't say I hate the show, but it was, in my opinion, one of the least consistent shows in the franchise (which is saying something). There was also a really bad habit of deus ex mechina devices used on a regular basis and the characters didn't so much develop as skip to whatever the writer of the week wanted. It's probably my least favorite "real Trek", but that is still light years ahead of the modern fake Trek.
I liked Voyager a little. I loathed DS9. DS9 was Discovery with better storytelling, IMO. Politically correct, racist, anti capitalist, anti-west, perverted...
But I get the criticisms of Janeway; I started watching PMS Voyeur in spite of it having a female captain, because I was a Kate Mulgrew fan... then I saw what a self-righteous, sjw prig Janeway was... almost... not quite, but almost... a mary sue.
Just once I would have liked to have seen a character on Voyager turn to Annika Hansen ("Seven of Nine" to you) and say, "Would you PLEASE put some clothes on?"
Soooo...they actually try to hold on to the principles of the idealistic future of the original series, but you’re mad they didn’t go dark (why I hate STD by the way) and ignore said principles. I’ve Been in very bad situations and sometimes slipped (which janeway does) but have held out where a lot of people lazily say “I had no choice.” As it says in Buffy: “ you always have a choice. It may not be a good choice but you have a choice.” Regardless of my choices, I had to live with them, but I don’t pretend I had none. In a world where everyone is going dark I don’t mind someone stopping to help others and reminding me not to chuck my Conscience out the window whenever I get abused or suffer, but to remember there’s hope, forgiveness and working together with people you never thought you could. Hopefully that helped you see another perspective. I’m glad to have listed to another myself, sharpened my own. And I often learn from your channel. Btw I consider it human to screw up, but life isn’t all darkness and I don’t want all of my television to keep me in the dark, especially when I’m currently trapped there. I prefer a healthy mix.
Right, so what you're saying is the crew of the Equinox DID have a choice; either kill a few flying space rats to survive, or starve to death. You're right, we shouldn't chuck our consciences to the side of the proverbial road when survival is on the line, because after all, everything is relative, who cares if you or I live or die?
I suppose an easier way to consider how difficult the situations can be is to make it personal. What if it was your children starving and suffering? Captains are essentially the parent of the ship and their crew their children. What are parents willing to do for their children's sake? Was Jean Valjean wrong to do what he did? Was it necessary to help his family survive?Would you do the same in his place?
@@UltraGalaxyify they could also have stopped trying to get home and stayed on one of the inhabitable planets they had been to. It was their choice, no matter how badly the ship and their food stores, to keep going.
@@GodwynDi True, but then you'd have to apply that to the Voyager as well; why didn't they stop at an inhabitable planet to live out their lives? Same reason why the Equinox was capturing those alien animals; they were trying to get home.
You're referring to your own personal choices and sacrifices, but a leader has to think about those under them. I don't like telling people I am a combat veteran, but I feel my personal experiences apply in the sense that I know what kind of person I am and what I'm willing to do.
That being said, I would gladly risk my life to save yours, a complete stranger, because that is the kind of person I am. However, if it came down to saving you, a complete stranger, or my family... Sorry, toots, but your number just came up.
I'd be making all of the rat gas and then some, just to be sure.
The only thing wrong with Star Trek Voyager is that it ended. I loved the show
Agreed!
Arantor Ironically that's the reason why I love Star Trek Voyager :P
@@TheAutistWhisperer yeah i know, all good things come to an end
I can agree with some of your points, however, I have to disagree with your rationalization for doing what he did to the alien species. Just because the alien species couldn't communicate with the Equinox crew doesn't mean they were unintelligent. Also, your argument on this seems to indicate that if a species as advanced as Star Fleet were to come across... let say humans from the Caveman days, that it would be perfectly okay to kill the cavemen because they are going to produce any fine art or literature or do anything of significance anytime soon.
I do agree that the show really missed out on making the hard, gritty reality of their situation more prevalent. I think the situation the Equinox crew found themselves in was the more realistic situation. I still wouldn't justify killing the alien species off due to lack of current intellectual society factors.
Totally agree with this. The basic argument here is that they're not like us therefore we can kill them and use them for fuel. That's not what the Federation is about, not by a long shot.
@@flaminbjuggler It'd be interesting if Janeway were a male character or say if Tuvok were in charge (stoic and logical) whether he'd have made the same criticism?..
While I didn’t like Voyager as well as the others, I would argue that Ransom was in the wrong. He was killing a sentient species. Yeah they aren’t making starships, but they demonstrate there intelligence when the act out of vengeance. I would agree the writers always gave the Voyager crew a way out.
He was also committing sacrilege, as an alien race, the Ankari, regarded them as sacred. If he’d wiped out the whole species just to get home, their culture would probably have gone into the Rapture or something.
Ok, dude your REALLY stretching this. The Aliens arn't animals and that is pretty clear in the episode. They can not only speak but think tactically and just because they look like Dolphins doesn't make them animals. You may have a point if they had chosen to only kill enough to survive but they didn't. They don't need to return home to survive. Their returning home is Selfish and they are killing to do that. They even attack Voyager and leave them stranded being attack by the aliens they provoked. Are they animals? They are not justified in their actions. If you had chosen the episode "Prey," a far better example of your point I might agree with you but your Not correct about this episode
And let's not forget the collectivist idea of disowning the Ba'ku for the greater good...
Hell Dolphins speak and even call each other by name, I don't think it's entirely fair to consider them as lowly as a sardine or some other unthinking creature.
@@TheJadeFist Maybe, maybe not. The bar I would personally set is "if they can beg for their lifes, we have to stop killing them". Then again, we don't do that even for humans sometimes. o.O
@@Alexander_Kale Well some one tell Tojo to stop butchering them. They use those sound weapons on them to confuse, basically flash banging an entire area for creatures with such advanced hearing.
@@TheJadeFist I am not arguing FOR animal cruelty. Just that on the sliding scale of life, consciousnes is hard to identify when we do not even understand what it actually is... Also, stop making this about dolphins. This was about sentience and murder.
1) Janeway was never in the position of being judged by a captain in a superior tactical position. Imagine if a Galaxy class rocked up one day... 2) Starfleet would definitely cover up any crime to get their hands on a strategic picture of the Delta quadrant. They might not agree with the morality of it, but the crew of the Equinox would retire in a quiet place under orders to stay silent. 3) The writers should have given Janeway the option to absolve their crimes by destroying the technology.
The criticism of Equinox makes no sense. It’s clear that the aliens are intelligent enough to suffer psychologically and the implication is that they are sentient. The idea that compromising with murder of sentient beings is okay under rough circumstances is absolutely opposed to the whole Star Trek universe.
I think Quark said it best in "seige of AR-558"
"Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people - as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts… deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers… put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time… and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people will become as nasty and violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces, look at their eyes…"
- Quark to Nog
I really like VOY. I think VOY was trying to be more like TOS, which is fine. Not every tv show has to be some sort of intellectual challenge that makes you rethink your life and ideologies. Sometimes, fun should be just fun.
btw, they aren't vegetarians. O'Brien eats meat.
Probably replicated meat, which means their morals about not killing defenceless little animals is preserved.
@@wadewilson6628 You don't think SG-1 was filled with social commentary? Interesting.
Tbh I think he missed the point on this one. Voyager's suposed to be light and the whole point of the series is that they try do it right without being diks to get home (It is idiological star trek after all) Dave's arguement is literally because it wasant the complete opposite... And their are plenty of Voyager episodes that make you think a sum that he doesn't mention, I could now if challenged on that.
It's true that not every *tv show* has to be an intellectual challenge, but that's the way that Star Trek has presented itself: a science fiction show that investigates what it means to be human and asks occasionally tough questions without always giving an answer. The problem with Voyager is that the premise was good, but the execution was lackluster and unrealistic.
Yea the episodic approach didn‘t work too well for Voyager. The lack of continuity really hurt Voyager.
Voyager firing torpedoes I think is still is a running joke.
The show wasn’t bad. I recently re-watched it and it was better than I had thought it was. But it isn’t as good as DS9 or TNG.
TNG moral grandstanding makes sense, that is mankind at its height. I can listen to Picard speeches all day long.
In Voyagers it is often misplaced. I’m not saying once a crisis arises we need to throw out every and all principles and moral values but some relativism won’t hurt either.
By pressing the reset button on every episode they took away the crisis that was being stranded far away. Voyager never really had troubles due to that.
Yes the Borg or whoever may have blow this or that up but once the episode is over Voyager was like brand new.
Neelix may say food rations are low or whatever and everyone may pretend that replicator use is rationed but never see them actually struggle with it even one bit.
Missed potential.
@BLAIR M Schirmer TNG while aimed at 13 year olds and with just as much moral grandstanding had reason behind it. After 15 Episodes Voyager should have been half way falling apart. Plot Armor is THE worst thing to rely on in a book or show and Voyager had a 20 foot thick Tritanium plate of Plot Armor. Every time they end in a bad future, magic reset button. Every time they had to fire dozens of torpedos they magically have 40 more the next episode.
The ONLY time it came close to a not fixable happy ending was the episode where Voyager is split in two and one ends up destroying itself to save the other. And even then the people who died on the ship that survived just happened to be alive on the one that sacrificed itself so by the end no one died. Compare that to Episodes of TNG like the one where Marla Aster dies in a mission and the whole episode is about coping with a parents death. Or the one with the old man where a species called the Husnak killed his wife and he didnt just take revenge on one husnak but genocided the whole race in a fit of rage. Those two episodes of TNG had more depth than 90+% of Voyager.
@@memnarch129 Supposedly the ship can make new torpedoes via the replicator and resources pulled from asteroids. It would have been nice if they actually showed this on screen though.
There were several instances where Janeway was willing to either separate from Voyager on her own or to have the crew live out their lives on some habitable planet, something that I'm sure Ransom could have done. it is one thing to kill a few people to change the course of a war (something that Sisko didn't even directly do), and a whole other think to melt intelligent beings to use as fuel; the fact that the aliens understood what was happening to them and were fighting back makes them much more intelligent than dolphins or 'flying rats'.
To the broader point though, while I agree that Janeway's voyage was pretty convenient, the only way to make the show realistic is to basically make them fail, which is to die or settle on some habitable planet. Captain Ransom's flying alien fuel is no less fantastical than the plot armor that Janeway has, so generally I think the show did more or less what it could given the premise.
I would have to somewhat disagree with this one. The reason why the Equinox was very damaged and 'falling apart' as you will wasn't because they were stranded like Voyager was, it was because they were killing those beings and those beings were essentially fighting back, that is the reason why they were not 'squeaky clean' like voyager. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a starship can 'mine' it's own resources along the way, from a planet, moon, nebula etc. The amount of resources from such celestial bodies would far outweigh the resources needed for any size starship so I don't see that being a problem IMO. If a galaxy class can replicate it's own runabouts and voyager could build a delta flyer, then I think any ship can beam resources out of celestial bodies.
I agree with the overall idea here, that DS9 is superior and Voyager never lived up to its potential. But I disagree with most of your points.
Comparing Archer's mission and Ransom's or Janeway's is a bit of a false comparison IMO. Archer wasn't trying to save his crew, he was fighting to save Earth itself and all of humanity. The stakes are quite different IMO.
The aliens in those episodes of Voyager were able to communicate and negotiate. That sounds like intelligence to me. I've never seen a Star Trek story where any species is able to communicate with fish.
And as for Insurrection, I personally feel like you have missed a few details with that movie. I mentioned them in your video about it, but I will just say this here:
For all intents and purposes, the Baku DO own that planet. First, a planet being in Federation space does not mean they 'own' that planet, it just means that the planet is within the boundaries that the Federation patrols and protects.
For example, Mintaka III is in Federation space, but the Federation doesn't 'own' it. They can't just seize the planet and do as they wish.
Second, the Baku colonized that planet about 100 years before the Federation even existed. How can they claim any authority on a civilization that predates their own?
The stakes were different for Archer, sure, but the comparison is still valid. Archer faced a terrible moral conundrum and made a choice that, in normal circumstance, we'd all regard as unacceptably terrible. While your entire crew dying isn't the end of all humanity, it's still terrible enough to create real tension between your long standing principles and their survival.
@@BladeOfLight16 but I personally don't think Archer would have made the same decision if it had only been his crew on the line and not all of humanity.
Yep, you got it!
Killing those aliens is justified as killing natives of some islands in the oceans and use them for fuel so the crew of some ocean ship can return home. Nobody with sound mind would agree with that.
@yuotubewalker Bull crap. History is chock-full of rational people enslaving and killing off other cultures. Soundness of mind has nothing to do with it.
Your argument may be good, or not, depending on one thing: The intelligence of the beings being killed for the Equinox to get home. It could be written either way. They could be simple creatures no smarter than a chicken or maybe a dog, who instinctively navigate between dimensions, or these beings could be intelligent beings exploring the unknown which could make them the pinnacle of their species. If the latter is true, then Janeway is in the right.
Plus, remember that Benjamin Sisko, whom you tout, Poisoned an entire planetary biosphere to elicit the surrender of Michael Eddington in the episode "for the uniform".
Also, didn't Chakotay actually negotiate with these creatures? If so, that denotes intelligence.
Good video.
But that's is his point. The Aliens acted like animals and Chakotay only communicated through spirit magic stuff. It was an option the other ship didn't have. They saw an alien life form who seemed to be sub space parasites that weren't intelligent. The captain said they didn't like the idea and wouldn't have done it except for the terrible situation they were in. The Eddington situation was Sisko purposefully playing the villain to make Eddington surrender. The poisoning was only going to be in the atmosphere for a few months and was only supposed to make human like lifeforms sick. It was still a stupid plot point the writers came up with. It would have been better to have Eddington come back again in a later episode where the consequences of his actions hit him hard.
I think the point Dave is making is they made the series to morally black and white. Voyager would have been a better show if they had the captain being forced to make harsh decisions because of their isolation. Instead voyager reset each episode with no real change or lasting consequences.
I agree there should have been more character development
@@constantinethetrickster9661 Except he had no point. The aliens didn't act like animals at all. Animals don't chase your ass across the universe for revenge. They don't speak their own language or understand English as these "animals" did. Animals also don't negotiate a ceasefire. Cullen's argument is retarded. These creatures were very clearly sapient beings. There was no magic communication. The one alien summons them with the same device given to the Equinox crew. Janeway herself asks out loud, "can they understand me?" He says yes and she starts negotiating with them. They are clearly intelligent enough to understand plain English. The other alien is clearly translating their language that Voyager crew can't understand. That torpedoes this retarded argument right then and there. Nowhere in either of the two episodes did they ever act like "subspace parasites," seeing as all they *ever* did was mind their own business, which includes killing the murderers, who murdered their people. The only parasites were aboard the Equinox. Conclusive evidence is at 31 minutes in this video on dailymotion: www.dailymotion.com/video/x5eg18m
@@salaciousBastardI'm not justifying anything they did, but you would be surprised what people will do when their desperate. In the words of the joker "people are only as good as the world allows them to be".
@@wolfwithin2967 Not everybody resorts to cannibalism when they're starving. In fact, it's rare for that to happen. In any case, my argument isn't that no such Ransom would exist. My argument is that, hopefully, there will be someone to stand between decent people and the cannibals of society.
Ah.....In the Pale Moonlight. Perhaps my favourite DS9 episode. Especially how Sisko ends his log.
Voyager is one of my favorites and I'm tired of people knocking it around. It was a great addition to Star Trek. People dnt give it enough fucking credit.
I remember getting bored with DS9 because it was rince and repeat Bajoran vs Cardassian over and over with too much religious nobsense in it. The "war" also ended anticlimatically
> The "war" also ended anticlimatically
That part is very true. That's because the final season had wasted episodes on things like a holodeck baseball game. So when it came time to end the war, they gave it several episodes, but then they get to the last one and its like, "OK, got to magically end this war and get home in time for tea." I thought the whole final series should have been about the war, with the last episode being akin to the Allies battling to capture Berlin in WWII. If there had been slow but steady progress of the Federation winning, with the Breen entry into the war being something akin to the Battle of the Bulge (only bigger), followed by the Federation and its allies pushing the Dominion back, I don't think the war's end would have been so anti-climactic.
She's not always on the morally right side, the episode where Nelix and Tuvok get combined by a transporter accident is one example, they essentially die and a new individual is created, she then orders the murder of that new person in order to get her tactical officer back and nelix.
Any way you splice it :D she murdered someone there.
Exactly!
Yeah the problem with Tuvix is tricky because it is a lose-lose situation
@@Hanmacx I see it as what's done is done, and by that I mean the accident, after that Janeway made a conscious choice to murder someone to bring back the two individuals, and it's not like the argument that she wanted her Security officer and Morale officer back made any sense, their experience existed wthin Tuvix, so it's not like she really lost that, hell even in the episode itself, Tuvix demonstrates he can do both their jobs.
So no, she is a murderer.
And let's not forget Janeway forcing Tuvok to fly the ship between a binary pulsar in Scientific Methods. She threatened to kill the entire crew there to stop her crew from being experimented on. Yet she then turns around and says she'll die to protect them. Wtf?
2 is better than one
...and for an Apples-to-Apples comparison of whether or not Janeway would be equally ruthless in Ransom's predicament, we need only watch "Year Of Hell".
really? what morally questionable thing did she do in "Year of Hell"?
She never even tried to listen to him. He was right and she was a smug 🤦🏻♂️ and you sir are absolutely right DS9 was the superior show
Hum, gotta disagree with you here, I could go into every point you made, giving you a 'valid' reason why Captain Ransom's actions were unjustifiable, but that would take too long. I am more than happy to discuss this further... But I will give you one reason.
You say that the creatures Captain Ransom killed were no more than "flying rats" or "fish," just one problem. Insentient creatures do not seek justice or revenge when their friends/family are captured, torched and ultimately killed.
The "flying rats" sourt revenge, it was an ethical conundrum for them, as denoted in the second part of the Equinox story arc, where communication was possible. They demanded revenge, furthermore their actions, by attacking both crews gives them an emotional context too. A grub does not feel these emotions. Therefore your statements, (only on this topic,) are invalid.
I agree with you. The thing about Ransom also is that he doesn't seem to be that great of a captain. This wasn't focused on. He personally told Janeway that when the Equinox first ended up in the Delta Quadrant, they encountered an alien race known as the Krowtonan Guard. They told Equinox not to cross their space, but Ransom ordered them to anyway, instead of adding another 7 years to Equinox's journey home. This in turn left the Equinox under constant attack, in shambles and 39 dead. Half of the crew. Ransom also deciding to allow the experiments to continue on the nucleogenic lifeforms cost more of his crew and by the time Voyager found them, there were only 13 left. Janeway we all know wouldn't have done any of that and most of her crew would still be alive, just like they were.
Ever pissed off a Momma Raccoon?? Yeah they will kill your ass for fuckin with their kids. Bottom line they werent a evolved species as far as we could tell, aka having literature/culture etc.
DS9 for me also was better. Voyager although awesome because of seven of nine was not allowed to get dirty.
DS9 wasn't immune to hitting the reset button with character development -- remember O'Brien's quick recovery after Hard Time?
There is a self ririteousness to Janeway in this Episode that is really off putting. I came away feeling like if the other captain had bowed his head with regret, and tearfully and hauntedly recounted what they had done, she, as his apparent judge and jury, would have forgiven him, but because he wasn't apologetic for contradicting her stance of unbending morality, because he was defiant of her, he was the villain.
Why do people keep insisting that the Baku planet was in federation space? They had been there before the federation existed.
Don't planets have to petition the federation to join? Did the Baku? NO, then it is not a federation planet.
What Starfleet was doing was the equivalent of kicking down your neighbours door and claiming their house for yourself because you share a border
It was in federation space, but the planet itself did not belong to the federation. Essentially nobody cared about a bunch of primitive looking aliens living on a planet when the borders were drawn and the concept of owned space was agreed upon.
The Baku were warp capable and not asserting their sovereignty to the Federation when they became evenopled in Federation territory. That makes it a Federation planet. If the Federation were to set up a space station around the planet, what exactly were the Baku going to do about it? Send a carrier pigeon?
Star Trek has already had an episode in which a problem like this was discussed, the episode First Contact (season 4 episode 15)
DURKEN: What do you want?
PICARD: A beginning. But how we proceed is entirely up to you.
DURKEN: And if my wishes should conflict with yours?
PICARD: There'll be no conflict.
DURKEN: And if I should tell you to leave and never return to my world?
PICARD: We will leave and never return. Chancellor
btw Edax, let me see if I understand you. What you are saying is if someone can't say no, you can do whatever you want to them?
@@andrewthorne3570 @Andrew Throne The Baku never said no. They never asserted their sovereignty and it would also be dubious that 600 people could claim an ENTIRE planet to begin with. If the Baku formerly held diplomatic relations with the Federations and asserted that that planet was theirs, the situation would be different. If no civilized government recognized the Baku as owning the planet, then guess what, they won't legally own the planet once it's in another entity's recognized space. That's how it works on Earth. You can't just claim land for yourself and make your own laws, otherwise what's stopping the Ferengi from just taking over the Baku planet? Immortality? Sounds profitable. Not a Federation planet? Then the Feds can't complain...right? And what's stopping the Ferengi from claiming all the planets in Federation space that aren't formally Federation members? Like it or not, the Baku are on a Federation planet.
The whole of Insurrection was pointless. Why did they need to move the Baku at all? There are around 7 billion people on Earth and without TV and the internet most of us wouldn't know anybody outside of our immediate geographical area even existed. The whole film could be solved in the first 30 seconds. All it requires is someone with some common sense to say "We don't need to move them. We just need to not go within about 50 miles of them and they won't even know anybody else is here. That still leaves the other 99.999% of the planet for us. They get to stay here living as they always have, we get to have some of that eternal youth goodness, everybody's happy. Simples. "
The allians had an argument with the Voyager crew. They may not be technological but were intelligent.
Watch Avatar.
The arguments presented are akin to someone who commited murder and canabalism being told, "It's ok, we understand you were starving. Here's a cheesburger."
Every time someone shits on voyager, an angel gets it's wings
I liked Janeway as a character, unfortunately the writers gave her shit to work with. If Voyager had been more like Battlestar Galatica in the first season (oh, Hello Ron Moore), I believe Voyager would have been an excellent series rather than a 'meh series.
That being said, even the worst episodes of Voyager are still better than that drek they call Discovery.
Interesting take, yeah the writers kinda wasted this arc.
Look around you Nog. Take away their food and sleep and creature comforts and these same nice people will become as nasty and viscous as the most bloodthirsty Klingon.
"You see, their morals, their code, it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. I'll show you. When the chips are down, these... these civilized people, they'll eat each other." - Joker, in "The Dark Knight"
It's call the evolutionary imperative. If an individual will not do what is necessary to survive, he does not live to pass on his genes, his kind dies out. If enough individuals of a species will not do what is necessary to survive, that species will become extinct. Nature does not care about "morality". For nature, morality lies in propagation.
Top shelf observations. It is like a College Class I did and we were assigned a group project. Someone balked about it. The instructor went on a diatribe about how we need to understand how the real world works and do what he demanded. He then began berating the young person so badly they began to cry. I could tell he (professor) got a stiffy about it. The Professor and I were nearly the same age so I decided I was going to do something really stupid. I asked him how long has been teaching at the College? He said I have been doing this (teaching at the college) FULLTIME for 32 years! So I know what I am talking about! All I said was "School only I assume?" I been working for 30 year too! I never once came across one of these types of work simulation situations assignments you prescribed. But please Sir, continue! You could have heard a pin drop. The next class I had damn near a dozen treats waiting for me and people thanking me for standing up to him. Sadly, the person who he made cry never again came to class again. That Professor reminded me of Janeway! I got a B -. on my way to a USELESS degree!
My Mac laptop had audio issues during Janeway's conversation with Ransom. But you successfully changed my whole perspective on that conundrum. I think the thing that turns it against their Equinox crew is that they conceal what they are doing from Voyager, and clearly realize they are not going to look good when the truth comes out. If Ransom had been honest from the beginning, does he wind up winning that argument?
I'm a Vegan, because I respect sentience more than intelligence. But there is a grey area in situations of necessity for survival, where I might hunt to live.
I think it's wrong when there is no necessity, like in modern life.
UnknownXV what about if your genetics don't allow for vegetarianism, such as my case. I tried going vegetarian but can't do it on a regular basis without losing weight and having dangerously low energy. The best I can do is go vegetarian a day or two per week as respect for God's creation. Someone should invent artificial meat already
@@knightofvoid1325 I haven't ever heard of anyone having genetics disallowing them to be Vegan. However, having low energy is a very common issue most face when they first start, and the reason for that is a lack of caloric intake. Most people go Vegan and eat similar portions as they did before, and not nearly enough starches. The bulk of your diet should be rice, beans, legumes, oats, potatoes, quinoa, some whole breads. Consume enough calories and use an app like CHRONOMETER to track your micronutrient intake, and you'll feel great! I know I do. And eat a lot! The beauty of a Vegan diet is you can actually eat until you're full and not gain weight, because caloric density of foods is much lower, and fiber intake skyrockets.
UnknownXV thanks, I can try some of this, there are some things youb mentioned that i haven't done yet
David Crockett was a successful hunter.
Your forgetting that a giant alien probe nearly destroyed earth in star trek 4 because he could no longer chat with humpback whales. Took some time travel violations to sort the matter out. That might have gone a little way to shaping Janeway's thinking.
An Star Fleet regulations.
You have some good points, if Captain Sisko was in place of Janeway he would have not only agreed with Captain Ransom he would have helped him and gotten himself some of that alien rat meat to power his own ship. Remember that episode when Sisko started the orbital bombardment of the maquis colony to flush out a starfleet traitor? Janeway was written as a Mary Sue that could do no wrong and the show lacked the grit that was present in DS9 and even Enterprise mainly because of that.
Sisco and those idiots would have been killed by the aliens.
Janeway was much better written than Sisko, who was the real "Mary Sue" (Stupid term.)
He was the one constantly being baled out by his godlike alien masters.
@@mickeye6428 I doubt it, Sisko didn't hesitate to defend his people no matter the cost. If the defiant was teleported to the delta quadrant and those aliens attacked he would have declared war. Janeway always had all the right answers for impossible problems and never had to endure loss, not even in one single situation.
It's true, Sisko was also bailed out of one or two impossible situations by those aliens but he also had to endure losses and learn from them and grow.
I don't like the term either but if one of them was a Mary sue it was defiantly Janeway. I mean the series finale was her saving herself for fuck sake.
@@Bitchslapper316 "Sisko didn't hesitate to defend his people no matter the cost."
That's bullshit. He wouldn't even save his own son. "I can't go against the prophets."
Janeway lost her ship. Crew members died. She got dumped. She stayed celibate for 7 years at her prime for the moral of her crew. If you think she didn't experience loss that is your failure of perception at work.
Sisko didn't earn shit. He was a fuckup that just kept getting promoted because of his connection to godlike aliens to which he deferred on everything including the life of his own son.
@@mickeye6428 You say he didn't sacrifice anything then proceed to list the time he left his own son behind, lol.
Janeway didn't lose her ship, what the fuck are you talking about. Her crew loss was also minimal, even Picard lost far more just on random patrols in the alpha quadrant. Voyager lost like 25 people throughout the entire run and 9 of them died in the first episode. Even when her entire crew was completely captured by hostile aliens on like three separate occasions she didn't lose any of them. Did her wits save her crew or did the shitty writing?
If you’re someone who agrees with Ransom then you really shouldn’t be a Trek fan
If I EVER hear Janeway utter "Prime Directive" again, I would slug her. She does not know what it means. She locks Paris away for saving the whales, while she destroys the Array to save the Ocampans stranding Voyager in the first place - her first act in the Delta Quadrant. Tuvok even tells her it is a violation - shrug. Then she joins forces with the Borg to fight species 8472 on a Quadrant Level Prime Directive "kiss my ass". Arcturus was totally right when because of her, lots of systems - TRILLIONS of people, would get assimilated. If she just let 8472 take out the Borg for a couple years, they would probably be safe for hundreds if not thousands of years... just to bring < 200 people back to Earth.
Ransom was using the aliens to go home, not survive. Your analogy of fishing is flawed in that sense. They could have settled on a planet and made the best of it, but instead, murdered intelligent aliens for a speed boost. Hardly “do what you must to survive”.
yes, and killing those aliens didn't keep them free from danger, as the aliens learned how to attack & kill the Equinox crew
I think the point he was trying to make was, in the Equinox's case, getting home was the same as survival. Equinox wasn't ideally equipped for a decades long solo journey through hostile space the way Voyager evidently was. Remember, Ransom said they were on thrusters only, the ship was falling apart and death was certain.
@@jaredkebbell443 but if they'd just found a planet to settle on, how their ship was(n't) equipped wouldn't have mattered...in fact, with a ship like that, wouldn't it have made more sense for Ransom to have decided to put down somewhere, and live out their lives on some random M class planet, rather than to even try to get home, anyway? by deciding to go for broke, with a ship like that, he had to know there would be huge sacrifices along the way (both in lives, and in morals), and little guaranty of success
@@lauranolastnamegiven3385 Well, under ideal circumstances you might be right. But, as Ransom informs us in the episode, the very first thing that happened to them after emerging from the Caretakers array was getting attacked by somebody called the Krowtonan Guard, who claimed they were violating their space. This attack killed half the crew. Since almost exactly the same thing happened to Voyager, we can conclude the Delta Quadrant is a rough place full of hostile, territorial aliens that want to steal Alpha Quadrant technology. So, even if they found a random M class planet, they would still be extremely vulnerable to other hostile aliens or in violation of somebody else's territory. So, I think settling down would have more or less the same chance of success as pushing on. I think they were damned if they do, damned if they don't.
@@jaredkebbell443 I guess we're to assume those Guard folks are others the Caretaker had brought (and they declared themselves rulers of the area?), and they'd since moved on, or been sent home, since Voyager hadn't been confronted by them...or did the Kazon (who had a history in the area) vanquish them? not sure that story made any sense to me, but whatever...also, what are the odds Voyager hadn't come upon anyone the Equinox had, I know he said they'd found a wormhole and such, I assumed that was all a lie, to cover for their enhanced drive
I agree that any planet they chose wouldn't be 100% safe, either, of course (there's always the Borg out there, too), but, I think I'd rather try to build something on a planet, than be vulnerable out in space, in a most likely futile attempt to get home (when home is across the galaxy), in a vessel so poorly equipped for such a journey...but maybe that's just me ;)
I would love to see Voyager remade in a post-LOST world.
Pretty sure it was explicitly made clear those aliens were intelligent. Primitive, but intelligent. So they were less Dolphins and more...a Hunter/Gatherer tribe. Mind you, I still understand and sympathize with the impossible position the Equinox was in. Their choice was kill, or die. They chose to kill. I was similarly frustrated that Janeway never expressed even an inkling of understanding for that position. Her grandstanding would have been infinitely more bearable...and more interesting...if at least she'd shown some private doubts and ponderance of what she might have done in their place.
Rick Berman was a sexist and homophobe who damaged every Star Trek series he touched. He at one point declared that his job was to get in the way of gay content or characters on Star Trek for the network. Every single woman character had horrible stories about his inappropriate sexist comments and actions, and he was the reason that Denise Crosby quit and he fired Terry Farrell for asking if it would be possible for an episode reduction in season 7. His horrible actions have been detailed by Denise Crosby, Marina Sirtis, Terry Farrell and Jeri Ryan as to inappropriate comments about the actresses bodies, their weight and insisting to be present for female costume fittings which made every single female uncomfortable. As for Voyager he told the main human actors to basically be boring so that the aliens actors would be more believable, and he fired composer Ron Jones because he said the music was "too noticeable" - he just wanted bland wallpaper music. He constantly screwed with actors and artists just to exert control (like refusing to let Will Wheaton do a major movie even though the schedule wouldn't conflict, or refusing to let Garret Wang direct an episode of Voyager because he couldn't fire him once he was declared by People Magazine as the 18th most beautiful person on the planet). He also fought long story lines on Voyager because he wanted to enhance Voyager's syndication-ability (DS9 was able to get around this once Berman was focused on Voyager by not telling him about it).
What about the episode “Tuvix”?
I think she was forced to make a highly questionable decision to “kill” someone to save two others in that episode.
I believe that is the worst episode in the show :(
@@somesinger1575 How come? Because of the sadness?
Voyager was Battlestar Galactica playing on God mod with cheat codes
Odd bit. You can't compare this to Insurrection. The Sona wanted to destroy the biosphere of the Baku so they could quickly fix their deterioration. Keep in mind the Sona CHOSE to leave to travel the stars...surrendering the benefit gained by living on the planet.
3:20 You'd think Kang The Conqueror must have been serectly working behind the scenes to keep resetting the timelines in those episodes LOL.