One good thing Detect Magic has going and spells like that is Bard gain the ritual caster so that given time, they can cast rituals without using a spell slot.
Ah my favourite class! A few comments: - On the role of the Bard: This might be contrary to the video, but dabbling in spells is better for a Bard that specializing is for a Bard. For example: Taking Disguise Self, Healing Word and Dissonant Whispers is more robust than Healing Word, Heroism and Cure Wounds. The latter is more focused, and makes you a very good healer, but the former is more applicable to more situations which keeps you relevant across the board. - One thing I've found that helps is to avoid leaning into spells that other casters are likely to have/take. If there is a Wizard in the party, avoid all Rituals, they have them. If there is a Cleric, just Healing Word is usually enough. etc... - Spells that scale well reduce the pressure on making the 'wrong' selection. For instance, Disguise Self is likely applicable throughout a Bard's career. It doesn't diminish like Sleep does, so I seldom regret taking it. Command is another good scaling spell. - Shatter is kind of a support blast that can follow other stronger AOE castings. If the party Wizard casts Fireball and there are still survivors at range, follow with Shatter. But yes, it's not even close to Fireball itself. - Knock is too niche, I have found, even without a party Rogue. The Bard would be better off carrying Enlarge/Reduce to shrink doors/locks, and then have some side utility from the spell that you would not have with Knock. - Slow is amazing, IMO. Much more applicable than spells that require placement, such as Hypnotic Pattern and Fear. No friendly fire with it. Combos well with Spirit Guardians.
Good comments. I can't believe I missed slow - you're right that it's an amazing spell. I can't believe I didn't mention it. Also, I probably wasn't clear about the idea of picking a role - I don't mean you have to specialise and take everything in that category, I just mean that you shouldn't be trying to be the healer, and the face, and the crowd control guy, and the AOE damage dealer all at the same time. Find a niche that no one else is really filling, and be that. One of the great things about Bard is that you have the ability to do pretty much any role you want. But I think you were kind of saying the same thing, so I mostly think we agree on that front. Anyways, great comment and additional insight.
Hey Jag. Good inputs. here's my comments on each: 1. agreed with Rob here. it's better to specialize always in 5e. it doesn't mean though i ignore other types of spells. for example, my creation bard is a controller/summoner hybrid. so i focus on control spells and buff spells for my summons. once that's covered then i consider other good spells like healing word. the healing example you laid out is kind of bad because no one should be the healer as a primary role. a healer is suboptimal. at best, one can be a healer as a secondary role (popping up allies when they go down then healing post-combat). i think a better example would've been comparing your initial spell selection with a controller bard's spell selection. personally, if i were to start as a level 1 bard, my 1st 4 spells would be command, sleep (to be swapped later), healing word and unseen servant. 2. agreed with #2 here, but again with a caveat. you should really just get healing word, regardless if there's a cleric in the party or not. the only other good healing spell really is something like aura of vitality which is good for healing in between combats (best on a divine sorc so it can be extended). oh and even if there's a wizard with rituals, i'd still pick up unseen servant as a bard to boost my own action economy. that's the only exception i think. 3. i think factoring tier of start here should also come in to play. if starting at or near tier 2 (most westmarch servers allow starting at level 3 for example), there's no point in picking sleep as it's good for the levels before that. command i agree is an excellent spell with scaling. disguise self, i disagree with, as i've found this spell to be very niche and table dependent. this i consider to be a "swap spell". i'd only pick it if it's clear that the campaign is built for it AND if the party likes that type of infiltration (some parties would just forego infiltration and just go in and blow stuff up, others like my own table prefer the stealth approach, etc). disguise self is NOT universally applicable. 4. i wouldn't even bother with shatter. if the enemies are close to dying, kill with cantrips or use a dissonant whispers/command. 5. agreed knock is too niche. with or without a party rogue. as an aside, i dont understand why people think lockpicking in 5e is reserved for the rogue. they have nothing special that makes them the best at it, especially at earlier levels. Bards are better at it with jack of all trades. A champion is better at it. and so on. rogues at best are equal to any class with good dex for lockpicking until level 11. and tbh by level 11 your party should have all sorts of options to counter a non-magically locked door. the best lockpickers are the ones who get bonuses to non-skill ability checks such as the bard and champion i mentioned earlier. but yeah like you i'd carry enlarge reduce, or better yet misty step + find familiar. 6. agreed. i prefer slow as well to fear and to a lesser extent hypnotic pattern as i'm a fan of stuff that circumvents common immunities.
@@thedungeon1578 i wouldnt say specializing means taking everything in a category. it just means if you have limited picks, you prioritize whatever's needed for your core tactics before taking utility/defensive spells then spells outside of your specialization. specializing doesn't mean doubling down. just prioritization. doubling down actually means you don't know what you're doing. like a blaster picking both fireball and shatter isnt specializing. they are doubling down. a blaster specializing would pick lets say erupting earth for aoe, scorching ray/magic missile for single target then start picking up the utility and defensive spells in shield, absorb elements, counterspell, misty step, etc before lets say considering a spell outside their specialization like hypnotic pattern or summon draconic spirit.
@@thedungeon1578 Yes, we are agreed in principle: Don't overload in a specific category. Craft away from the other casters in the group. You can make what you want with a Bard, so use that to your advantage.
@@TheRobversion1 Hey Rob, Good to hear from you again. To reply: 1. I usually go with a few key spells, and then the rest to round out. We could be saying the same thing, just the degree is different. For your example, I usually don't use the same spell load out for back line Bards vs. mid line Bards. It depends. - For Unseen Servant, is it mostly Caltrops and Potions for the combat action economy? - On Command: I generally avoid taking this until 2nd level because then it can it 2 targets. At level 1, I choose Dissonant Whispers instead. - No Silvery Barbs? 2. Fair point. 3. At most tables I've played at, Disguise Self has been quite useful. But yes, if you're party doesn't care to infiltrate with guile and face abilities, or infiltrate/stealth at all, it's a switch out. 4. Shatter is quite economical. Whether it's used before ranged blast or after, so long as it encompasses enough targets, it's valuable. 5. Yep. 6. Common immunities and placement. Generally, DMs don't offer ideal spell placement and that's what holds Fear and Hypnotic Pattern back for me. Why Catnap? Cheers Rob.
yeah i agree. why is spells known a detriment for sorcs while it's not for bard? people just following an old tired narrative instead of actually paying attention to numbers. agreed specialization in a primary role and perhaps a secondary is the best way to build not just a bard in 5e, but any character really. here's my general picks assuming i don't have a specific build in mind (level 6): cantrips-same as yours 1st-command, healing word, unseen servant, *sleep-to be swapped out later 2nd-aid 3rd-catnap this leaves me 4 spells for core tactics spells or utility spells. for example as a controller bard i'd pick stuff like phantasmal force, slow, speak with animals (i think this spell is quite underrated and can be so useful with a cool DM) and leomund's tiny hut. since the bard has ritual casting, i generally like having 1/3-1/4 of my spell selection be rituals as you wont have enough spell slots anyway to cast the other spells. longstrider is a good spell but not for casters. it's for melee gishes so they dont waste turns dashing to close in.
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One good thing Detect Magic has going and spells like that is Bard gain the ritual caster so that given time, they can cast rituals without using a spell slot.
Ah my favourite class! A few comments:
- On the role of the Bard: This might be contrary to the video, but dabbling in spells is better for a Bard that specializing is for a Bard. For example: Taking Disguise Self, Healing Word and Dissonant Whispers is more robust than Healing Word, Heroism and Cure Wounds. The latter is more focused, and makes you a very good healer, but the former is more applicable to more situations which keeps you relevant across the board.
- One thing I've found that helps is to avoid leaning into spells that other casters are likely to have/take. If there is a Wizard in the party, avoid all Rituals, they have them. If there is a Cleric, just Healing Word is usually enough. etc...
- Spells that scale well reduce the pressure on making the 'wrong' selection. For instance, Disguise Self is likely applicable throughout a Bard's career. It doesn't diminish like Sleep does, so I seldom regret taking it. Command is another good scaling spell.
- Shatter is kind of a support blast that can follow other stronger AOE castings. If the party Wizard casts Fireball and there are still survivors at range, follow with Shatter. But yes, it's not even close to Fireball itself.
- Knock is too niche, I have found, even without a party Rogue. The Bard would be better off carrying Enlarge/Reduce to shrink doors/locks, and then have some side utility from the spell that you would not have with Knock.
- Slow is amazing, IMO. Much more applicable than spells that require placement, such as Hypnotic Pattern and Fear. No friendly fire with it. Combos well with Spirit Guardians.
Good comments. I can't believe I missed slow - you're right that it's an amazing spell. I can't believe I didn't mention it.
Also, I probably wasn't clear about the idea of picking a role - I don't mean you have to specialise and take everything in that category, I just mean that you shouldn't be trying to be the healer, and the face, and the crowd control guy, and the AOE damage dealer all at the same time. Find a niche that no one else is really filling, and be that. One of the great things about Bard is that you have the ability to do pretty much any role you want. But I think you were kind of saying the same thing, so I mostly think we agree on that front.
Anyways, great comment and additional insight.
Hey Jag. Good inputs. here's my comments on each:
1. agreed with Rob here. it's better to specialize always in 5e. it doesn't mean though i ignore other types of spells. for example, my creation bard is a controller/summoner hybrid. so i focus on control spells and buff spells for my summons. once that's covered then i consider other good spells like healing word.
the healing example you laid out is kind of bad because no one should be the healer as a primary role. a healer is suboptimal. at best, one can be a healer as a secondary role (popping up allies when they go down then healing post-combat). i think a better example would've been comparing your initial spell selection with a controller bard's spell selection.
personally, if i were to start as a level 1 bard, my 1st 4 spells would be command, sleep (to be swapped later), healing word and unseen servant.
2. agreed with #2 here, but again with a caveat. you should really just get healing word, regardless if there's a cleric in the party or not. the only other good healing spell really is something like aura of vitality which is good for healing in between combats (best on a divine sorc so it can be extended).
oh and even if there's a wizard with rituals, i'd still pick up unseen servant as a bard to boost my own action economy. that's the only exception i think.
3. i think factoring tier of start here should also come in to play. if starting at or near tier 2 (most westmarch servers allow starting at level 3 for example), there's no point in picking sleep as it's good for the levels before that. command i agree is an excellent spell with scaling. disguise self, i disagree with, as i've found this spell to be very niche and table dependent. this i consider to be a "swap spell". i'd only pick it if it's clear that the campaign is built for it AND if the party likes that type of infiltration (some parties would just forego infiltration and just go in and blow stuff up, others like my own table prefer the stealth approach, etc). disguise self is NOT universally applicable.
4. i wouldn't even bother with shatter. if the enemies are close to dying, kill with cantrips or use a dissonant whispers/command.
5. agreed knock is too niche. with or without a party rogue. as an aside, i dont understand why people think lockpicking in 5e is reserved for the rogue. they have nothing special that makes them the best at it, especially at earlier levels. Bards are better at it with jack of all trades. A champion is better at it. and so on. rogues at best are equal to any class with good dex for lockpicking until level 11. and tbh by level 11 your party should have all sorts of options to counter a non-magically locked door. the best lockpickers are the ones who get bonuses to non-skill ability checks such as the bard and champion i mentioned earlier.
but yeah like you i'd carry enlarge reduce, or better yet misty step + find familiar.
6. agreed. i prefer slow as well to fear and to a lesser extent hypnotic pattern as i'm a fan of stuff that circumvents common immunities.
@@thedungeon1578 i wouldnt say specializing means taking everything in a category. it just means if you have limited picks, you prioritize whatever's needed for your core tactics before taking utility/defensive spells then spells outside of your specialization. specializing doesn't mean doubling down. just prioritization. doubling down actually means you don't know what you're doing.
like a blaster picking both fireball and shatter isnt specializing. they are doubling down.
a blaster specializing would pick lets say erupting earth for aoe, scorching ray/magic missile for single target then start picking up the utility and defensive spells in shield, absorb elements, counterspell, misty step, etc before lets say considering a spell outside their specialization like hypnotic pattern or summon draconic spirit.
@@thedungeon1578 Yes, we are agreed in principle: Don't overload in a specific category. Craft away from the other casters in the group. You can make what you want with a Bard, so use that to your advantage.
@@TheRobversion1 Hey Rob, Good to hear from you again. To reply:
1. I usually go with a few key spells, and then the rest to round out. We could be saying the same thing, just the degree is different. For your example, I usually don't use the same spell load out for back line Bards vs. mid line Bards. It depends.
- For Unseen Servant, is it mostly Caltrops and Potions for the combat action economy?
- On Command: I generally avoid taking this until 2nd level because then it can it 2 targets. At level 1, I choose Dissonant Whispers instead.
- No Silvery Barbs?
2. Fair point.
3. At most tables I've played at, Disguise Self has been quite useful. But yes, if you're party doesn't care to infiltrate with guile and face abilities, or infiltrate/stealth at all, it's a switch out.
4. Shatter is quite economical. Whether it's used before ranged blast or after, so long as it encompasses enough targets, it's valuable.
5. Yep.
6. Common immunities and placement. Generally, DMs don't offer ideal spell placement and that's what holds Fear and Hypnotic Pattern back for me.
Why Catnap?
Cheers Rob.
yeah i agree. why is spells known a detriment for sorcs while it's not for bard? people just following an old tired narrative instead of actually paying attention to numbers.
agreed specialization in a primary role and perhaps a secondary is the best way to build not just a bard in 5e, but any character really.
here's my general picks assuming i don't have a specific build in mind (level 6):
cantrips-same as yours
1st-command, healing word, unseen servant, *sleep-to be swapped out later
2nd-aid
3rd-catnap
this leaves me 4 spells for core tactics spells or utility spells. for example as a controller bard i'd pick stuff like phantasmal force, slow, speak with animals (i think this spell is quite underrated and can be so useful with a cool DM) and leomund's tiny hut.
since the bard has ritual casting, i generally like having 1/3-1/4 of my spell selection be rituals as you wont have enough spell slots anyway to cast the other spells.
longstrider is a good spell but not for casters. it's for melee gishes so they dont waste turns dashing to close in.