Edit: test drove an '18 brz limited this week and I was surprised at how well the car fit me; everything fell into place, short clutch, short throws, and due to my height I can sit behind myself. I am a hatch/wagon guy, but this car (brz) makes a great argument to be my next car...I rarely carry people around, the trunk seems big enough and my 6.75yo son's booster seat can fit in the rear if it needs to and I would have more fun on my daily commute than I do now in my mk4 gti.
And the Camaro's tires are 1.5x as wide, too, unless I'm misunderstanding which model was used here. Why can't they ever evaluate cars on equal tires? Nobody does real racing on different size/model/spec tires, and anyone that's ever set foot on a real track in a competitive sense knows tires are everything.
Did you pull that out of your ass? Because the thing you claim as a "fact" is wrong. I went and looked up used prices for 2016 BRZ's and 2016 Camaro's (with low options, base engines). They both had very similar starting prices, and it seems the used values for Camaro's is on par or slightly higher than the same for the BRZ. Here's the info: www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=usedPaidSearchNoZip&newSearchFromOverviewPage=true&inventorySearchWidgetType=AUTO&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=c25256&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity2=c25256&zip=48532&distance=50000&searchChanged=true&modelChanged=false&filtersModified=true www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=usedPaidSearchNoZip&newSearchFromOverviewPage=true&inventorySearchWidgetType=AUTO&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=c24991&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity2=c24991&zip=48532&distance=50000&searchChanged=true&trimNames=1LT+Coupe+RWD&trimNames=2LT+Coupe+RWD&trimNames=2LS+Coupe+RWD&modelChanged=false&filtersModified=true
@@Dolby109 No, with the 1LE package it's 305 for the front and 325 for the rear, unless I misunderstood the website. If that is the case, it's almost exactly 1.5x as wide. Even still, it's 100 treadwear vs. 320 treadwear, which makes a much bigger difference than width. Not even remotely close to a fair fight. Saying "but muh factory tires" is why they keep doing this anti-consumer thing. Yeah, it's cool to run a fast lap on 100 treadwear tires, far less cool for the new owner to need new tires in 1000 miles because they have basically no tread depth and they'll melt after being driven hard a couple of times. Cars need to be evaluated on equal tires or it's all moot, go find a serious racing series that allows wildly different tires, you won't, because it's not racing.
@@nunyabusiness896 There are 4 different 1LE trims, and while we are talking about the base Turbo 4-cyl 1LE that competes with the BRZ price wise, apparently you are referencing the 650hp ZL1 1LE which literally competes with supercars like the 911 GT3 RS, Huracan, 570S, GT-R, and Ferrari 458 on track. In case you didn't know...the different trims come with a lot of different goodies, including tires. The runflats on the Turbo 1LE are almost the same treadwear as the BRZ Ts has.
If you are talking the Challenger then maybe...that's really the only Muscle car sold. The Mustang and Camaro are Pony cars, but frankly they've evolved beyond that now and are serious performance cars. Sure they are a bit bigger than the BRZ but all you need to do is go to an autocross to see how well 6th gen Camaro's handle.
And the 1LE has tires 1.5x as wide and 100 treadwear vs the tS's 320 treadwear, cheater slicks if I've ever seen them. Put both cars on reasonably equal tires and lets run the laps again.
@@nunyabusiness896 1) Your wrong. BRZ Ts comes with 215 section MICHELIN PILOT SPORT 4 which is 300 treadwear rating. The Camaro Turbo 1LE has 275 section EAGLE F1 SUPERCAR G: 2 RUNONFLAT's with a 225 treadware rating. So literally every figure you stated was exaggerated to your points favor. The Camaro's tires are 27% wider, and only slightly more grippy. 2) So what? The Camaro comes with better tires, and is still $4k less expensive than the BRZ Ts. Run what ya brung, and Subaru didn't bring enough.
@@Dolby109 Oh my poor, ignorant child. Maybe you should Google better: www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Sport+4&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=14YR8PS4&tab=Specs See that? UTQG says 320. And for the Camaro? www.chevrolet.com/camaro-sports-car/1le-packages "305/30ZR19 front, 325/30ZR19 Rear Goodyear® Eagle® F1 Supercar 3R summer-only tires† developed exclusively for Camaro." www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Goodyear&tireModel=Eagle+F1+Supercar+3R&partnum=23YR9F1S3R Wrong again, you're really not good at this, are you? And to your other point, with 100 treadwear tires, "what you brung" won't be there after a few hundred miles, so anyone with sense is going to care more about the fundamental car than what disposable parts come on the car and won't be around after a few laps. I wouldn't be opposed to Subaru/Toyota technically offering a crazy sticky tire just to shut up people like you, but I'm not running either company and they probably don't want to embarrass the new Supra or various sporty Lexus cars in the process and undercut their own lineup.
@@nunyabusiness896 There are 4 variants of the 1LE. The ZL1 1LE, SS 1LE, V6 1LE, Turbo 4 1LE. The V6 1LE and Turbo 4 1LE are the same specs outside of the engine. The SS 1LE has its own setup and the ZL1 1LE has its own setup also. The Chevy website has all the info for you to see for yourself. I did the search for you since it seems like you has been misinformed badly and having a hard time knowing the difference in 1LE trims. www.chevrolet.com/camaro-sports-car/1le-packages Scroll all the was to the bottom to see the Turbo 1LE specs. The V6 1LE has the same specs outside of the engine. The SS 1LE and the ZL1 1LE have different specs. In case you can't figure it out, I copied the info straight from the Chevy website as it states: Camaro Turbo and V6 1LE Turbo 1LE features a 2.0L engine rated at 275 hp and 295 lb.-ft. of torque, matched with a 6-speed manual transmission V6 1LE features a 3.6L engine rated at 335 hp, matched with a 6-speed manual transmission FE3 suspension components (from the Camaro SS), including dampers, rear cradle mounts, ball-jointed rear toe links and stabilizer bars Lightweight 20-inch forged-aluminum wheels paired with Goodyear Eagle F1 245/40R20 front and 275/35R20 rear summer-only tires† Brembo 4-piston front brake calipers Mechanical limited-slip differential with 3.27 ratio Standard track cooling package with engine oil, differential and transmission coolers Suede steering wheel and shorter-throw shifter Dual-mode exhaust system (V6 models only) Camaro SS fuel system for higher-load cornering capability Satin black hood, front splitter and unique 3-piece rear spoiler Unique high-flow mesh upper and lower grille with satin black accents Available RECARO® seats Available Performance Data Recorder Thank you. Love and Light
It was actually 4.4 seconds faster than the Accord...but also 8.4 seconds slower than the Camaro which is ~$4k cheaper. The Accord did beat an old lap time in the 2013 BRZ by 2/10ths though.
@@Dolby109 The regular BRZ/86 has deliberately crappy stock tires, you can't base anything performance-wise off of those tires, that's why they made the tS in the first place. Road and Track upgraded the tires on an otherwise stock FR-S and blew away a WRX and Mazdaspeed 3 on the track when it lagged behind on stock tires. Consumer Reports set a slalom record on upgraded tires as well. The 86 platform is probably the most underestimated car in history.
@@nunyabusiness896 They platform may be good, but there are certainly faster if not better options for the money in stock or close to stock trim. Subaru/Toyota shouldn't have hampered a good car with shit tires. It's their fault the factory lap times aren't that great, don't blame me.
@@Dolby109 I didn't blame you, I blamed the crappy tires. Straightline speed is overrated and for people that can't do anything but drive in a straightline. My 86 hits illegal speeds faster than it really needs to, I'd rather it handle like a 6-figure supercar like it does. They only put those tires on there A) minimize rolling resistance to boost fuel economy numbers due to environmental regulations B) make it more fun in everyday driving C) knowing full well anyone going to a track is going to buy a set of track tires based on the rules for the motorsport they're doing. Hardly anyone ever goes to the track on factory tires, and anyone that's been to a track knows this. I guess you haven't been to a track, then, which explains why everything you say is just reciting magazine numbers.
@@nunyabusiness896 Yes but track times are an indicator of it's total performance which can apply on the street. But yes I get the whole slow car fast thing, owning a Honda Beat I actually have you beat by a country mile on the concept. But straight line speed can still be fun, and is a big part of track performance. And it's not the only reason the 4-cyl 1LE is faster, as it's P/W ratio is only slightly better than the BRZ's. And fine if they wanted to put crappy tires on the car, but they should have put out a performance tire version much sooner, and much cheaper than the Ts is.
Subaru/Toyota - listen to your customers and turbocharge this thing! It's 8.4 seconds slower than a Camaro that is $3500 cheaper. I know you tell your moron reps that it will cost $50k to have a turbo version, but that is BS because Ford, Chevy, Fiat, Hyundai, and even BMW can all build RWD turbo-4 cars for $35k or less. Hell even the WRX is AWD (RWD layout) and starts under $30k. Until then, anyone that buys this thing is a tool.
Nah. Even if the 1LE is a faster car, I'd never consider it. I don't like the looks, it's heavy, handling is compromised. I don't like the interior and visibility doesn't look that good. On the FT86 forums you get guys that owned basically any performance car you can name and they still enjoy driving this car for the purity of handling and that balance. It's got 205 hp but I do powerslides with 3 people on board. And that's on sticky Michelins. I redline it every day and it's just such a joy to drive. This 35K edition is a joke and everyone knows it. My 86 cost me 25K. Add some headers, an E85 tune, and you have extra 40 hp. Even on pump gas, you can get up to 30 to the wheels with full exhaust and a good tune. I'm sure the 1LE is a good car to people that like it, but think of it as sushi vs burger. Someone who prefers burgers is probably gonna be amazed that people pay twice the price for a tiny roll of rice and fish, and think they're idiots, but to each his own. I would never even consider the 1LE. In my mind, a muscle car must have a V8. But I understand why someone would buy it over the BRZ. But according to your logic, everyone should just buy the 1LE until roads are full of them. People are different. Track times aren't enough to convince everyone.
Cantcomeupwithone - is your brain broken? The 1LE Camaro handles BETTER than the BRZ tS. It's handling isn't compromised...the BRZ's power is. I'm not saying the BRZ is bad, but this tS certainly is for it's price, and anyone who actually wants a car to track should consider the Camaro over the BRZ. But don't worry, the tS looks like a peach in the light of that type-RA which is crazy stiff and still gets spanked by all of it's much cheaper 4-door hot hatch brethren, and the V6 Camaro.
LOL...no not enough to make up 8.4 seconds. Remember the Camaro weighs a bit more, so it's power to weight ratio is roughly the same as a Focus ST which ran 3:17.6 here, which is in turn 2 sec faster than a BRZ performance pack...because of the power difference. The magic of the 6th gen Camaro is mostly in how great the Alpha chassis is. But maybe...read the reviews for yourself. www.caranddriver.com/features/2018-subaru-brz-ts-lightning-lap-2018 www.caranddriver.com/features/2019-chevrolet-camaro-turbo-1le-at-lightning-lap-2018
Even if your opinion column were true, and most of it really isn't (especially all that stuff about torque), it wouldn't change the fact that in the $33k range the tS is objectively lacking in performance. Yes it's still a good drivers car, but so is the Camaro.
Edit: test drove an '18 brz limited this week and I was surprised at how well the car fit me; everything fell into place, short clutch, short throws, and due to my height I can sit behind myself. I am a hatch/wagon guy, but this car (brz) makes a great argument to be my next car...I rarely carry people around, the trunk seems big enough and my 6.75yo son's booster seat can fit in the rear if it needs to and I would have more fun on my daily commute than I do now in my mk4 gti.
K03sport ok
It helps more for high speed corners it is funtional and adjustable
The Subaru BRZ is the best manual transmission RWD drivers car under $30K hands down. Reliable yet fun
This is great! Really captured how it feels to drive those things!
Now I REALLY want a BRZ
Nice driving bud!!!!!!
Seriously? This car went 69 mph in hog pen but the zr1 only went 64?
Civic si did it at 89 mph lol
Your forgetting one thing, the 2019 Camaro Turbo 1LE is not going to retain it's value as well as the 2018 BRZ ts---That's a fact.
And the Camaro's tires are 1.5x as wide, too, unless I'm misunderstanding which model was used here. Why can't they ever evaluate cars on equal tires? Nobody does real racing on different size/model/spec tires, and anyone that's ever set foot on a real track in a competitive sense knows tires are everything.
Did you pull that out of your ass? Because the thing you claim as a "fact" is wrong.
I went and looked up used prices for 2016 BRZ's and 2016 Camaro's (with low options, base engines).
They both had very similar starting prices, and it seems the used values for Camaro's is on par or slightly higher than the same for the BRZ.
Here's the info:
www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=usedPaidSearchNoZip&newSearchFromOverviewPage=true&inventorySearchWidgetType=AUTO&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=c25256&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity2=c25256&zip=48532&distance=50000&searchChanged=true&modelChanged=false&filtersModified=true
www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=usedPaidSearchNoZip&newSearchFromOverviewPage=true&inventorySearchWidgetType=AUTO&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=c24991&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity2=c24991&zip=48532&distance=50000&searchChanged=true&trimNames=1LT+Coupe+RWD&trimNames=2LT+Coupe+RWD&trimNames=2LS+Coupe+RWD&modelChanged=false&filtersModified=true
@@nunyabusiness896 205 vs 275, so your math is a bit off. And everyone evaluates on factory tires because that is what is fair.
@@Dolby109 No, with the 1LE package it's 305 for the front and 325 for the rear, unless I misunderstood the website. If that is the case, it's almost exactly 1.5x as wide.
Even still, it's 100 treadwear vs. 320 treadwear, which makes a much bigger difference than width. Not even remotely close to a fair fight. Saying "but muh factory tires" is why they keep doing this anti-consumer thing. Yeah, it's cool to run a fast lap on 100 treadwear tires, far less cool for the new owner to need new tires in 1000 miles because they have basically no tread depth and they'll melt after being driven hard a couple of times. Cars need to be evaluated on equal tires or it's all moot, go find a serious racing series that allows wildly different tires, you won't, because it's not racing.
@@nunyabusiness896 There are 4 different 1LE trims, and while we are talking about the base Turbo 4-cyl 1LE that competes with the BRZ price wise, apparently you are referencing the 650hp ZL1 1LE which literally competes with supercars like the 911 GT3 RS, Huracan, 570S, GT-R, and Ferrari 458 on track.
In case you didn't know...the different trims come with a lot of different goodies, including tires. The runflats on the Turbo 1LE are almost the same treadwear as the BRZ Ts has.
They should put an upgraded engine in this car, at least the WRX engine. Even better, the STI engine
it has the wrx engine wrx and 86 have fa20 while the sti has the EJ motor just needs a turbo
Too many long straights. Try a tight togue and watch the muscles fade in your mirror.
Yeah, the South Course is much better suited for this car. But I'll probably do the Full Course again next time because it has the Climbing Esses :)
All the cars got tested on the same track.Subaru needs to step up the power in their cars.
If you are talking the Challenger then maybe...that's really the only Muscle car sold. The Mustang and Camaro are Pony cars, but frankly they've evolved beyond that now and are serious performance cars. Sure they are a bit bigger than the BRZ but all you need to do is go to an autocross to see how well 6th gen Camaro's handle.
@@uncle_salty_3675 275/35 R20 Goodyear Eagle F1 vs 215/45 R17 cheap Pilot Sport 4 get over it...
@@uncle_salty_3675 Somone sounds hella mad
Lol....
This got killed by the 1LE Turbo, Even while weighing 900lbs less...
More like 700lbs, but yeah pretty much.
And the 1LE has tires 1.5x as wide and 100 treadwear vs the tS's 320 treadwear, cheater slicks if I've ever seen them. Put both cars on reasonably equal tires and lets run the laps again.
@@nunyabusiness896 1) Your wrong.
BRZ Ts comes with 215 section MICHELIN PILOT SPORT 4 which is 300 treadwear rating.
The Camaro Turbo 1LE has 275 section EAGLE F1 SUPERCAR G: 2 RUNONFLAT's with a 225 treadware rating.
So literally every figure you stated was exaggerated to your points favor. The Camaro's tires are 27% wider, and only slightly more grippy.
2) So what?
The Camaro comes with better tires, and is still $4k less expensive than the BRZ Ts.
Run what ya brung, and Subaru didn't bring enough.
@@Dolby109 Oh my poor, ignorant child.
Maybe you should Google better: www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Sport+4&sidewall=Blackwall&partnum=14YR8PS4&tab=Specs
See that? UTQG says 320.
And for the Camaro?
www.chevrolet.com/camaro-sports-car/1le-packages
"305/30ZR19 front, 325/30ZR19 Rear Goodyear® Eagle® F1 Supercar 3R summer-only tires† developed exclusively for Camaro."
www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Goodyear&tireModel=Eagle+F1+Supercar+3R&partnum=23YR9F1S3R
Wrong again, you're really not good at this, are you?
And to your other point, with 100 treadwear tires, "what you brung" won't be there after a few hundred miles, so anyone with sense is going to care more about the fundamental car than what disposable parts come on the car and won't be around after a few laps. I wouldn't be opposed to Subaru/Toyota technically offering a crazy sticky tire just to shut up people like you, but I'm not running either company and they probably don't want to embarrass the new Supra or various sporty Lexus cars in the process and undercut their own lineup.
@@nunyabusiness896 There are 4 variants of the 1LE. The ZL1 1LE, SS 1LE, V6 1LE, Turbo 4 1LE. The V6 1LE and Turbo 4 1LE are the same specs outside of the engine. The SS 1LE has its own setup and the ZL1 1LE has its own setup also. The Chevy website has all the info for you to see for yourself. I did the search for you since it seems like you has been misinformed badly and having a hard time knowing the difference in 1LE trims.
www.chevrolet.com/camaro-sports-car/1le-packages
Scroll all the was to the bottom to see the Turbo 1LE specs. The V6 1LE has the same specs outside of the engine. The SS 1LE and the ZL1 1LE have different specs.
In case you can't figure it out, I copied the info straight from the Chevy website as it states:
Camaro Turbo and V6 1LE
Turbo 1LE features a 2.0L engine rated at 275 hp and 295 lb.-ft. of torque, matched with a 6-speed manual transmission
V6 1LE features a 3.6L engine rated at 335 hp, matched with a 6-speed manual transmission
FE3 suspension components (from the Camaro SS), including dampers, rear cradle mounts, ball-jointed rear toe links and stabilizer bars
Lightweight 20-inch forged-aluminum wheels paired with Goodyear Eagle F1 245/40R20 front and 275/35R20 rear summer-only tires†
Brembo 4-piston front brake calipers
Mechanical limited-slip differential with 3.27 ratio
Standard track cooling package with engine oil, differential and transmission coolers
Suede steering wheel and shorter-throw shifter
Dual-mode exhaust system (V6 models only)
Camaro SS fuel system for higher-load cornering capability
Satin black hood, front splitter and unique 3-piece rear spoiler
Unique high-flow mesh upper and lower grille with satin black accents
Available RECARO® seats
Available Performance Data Recorder
Thank you. Love and Light
Slower than an Accord
It was actually 4.4 seconds faster than the Accord...but also 8.4 seconds slower than the Camaro which is ~$4k cheaper.
The Accord did beat an old lap time in the 2013 BRZ by 2/10ths though.
@@Dolby109 The regular BRZ/86 has deliberately crappy stock tires, you can't base anything performance-wise off of those tires, that's why they made the tS in the first place. Road and Track upgraded the tires on an otherwise stock FR-S and blew away a WRX and Mazdaspeed 3 on the track when it lagged behind on stock tires. Consumer Reports set a slalom record on upgraded tires as well. The 86 platform is probably the most underestimated car in history.
@@nunyabusiness896 They platform may be good, but there are certainly faster if not better options for the money in stock or close to stock trim.
Subaru/Toyota shouldn't have hampered a good car with shit tires. It's their fault the factory lap times aren't that great, don't blame me.
@@Dolby109 I didn't blame you, I blamed the crappy tires.
Straightline speed is overrated and for people that can't do anything but drive in a straightline. My 86 hits illegal speeds faster than it really needs to, I'd rather it handle like a 6-figure supercar like it does.
They only put those tires on there A) minimize rolling resistance to boost fuel economy numbers due to environmental regulations B) make it more fun in everyday driving C) knowing full well anyone going to a track is going to buy a set of track tires based on the rules for the motorsport they're doing. Hardly anyone ever goes to the track on factory tires, and anyone that's been to a track knows this. I guess you haven't been to a track, then, which explains why everything you say is just reciting magazine numbers.
@@nunyabusiness896 Yes but track times are an indicator of it's total performance which can apply on the street.
But yes I get the whole slow car fast thing, owning a Honda Beat I actually have you beat by a country mile on the concept.
But straight line speed can still be fun, and is a big part of track performance. And it's not the only reason the 4-cyl 1LE is faster, as it's P/W ratio is only slightly better than the BRZ's.
And fine if they wanted to put crappy tires on the car, but they should have put out a performance tire version much sooner, and much cheaper than the Ts is.
This car needs a bigger engine or some kind of forced induction
Subaru/Toyota - listen to your customers and turbocharge this thing! It's 8.4 seconds slower than a Camaro that is $3500 cheaper.
I know you tell your moron reps that it will cost $50k to have a turbo version, but that is BS because Ford, Chevy, Fiat, Hyundai, and even BMW can all build RWD turbo-4 cars for $35k or less. Hell even the WRX is AWD (RWD layout) and starts under $30k.
Until then, anyone that buys this thing is a tool.
Nah. Even if the 1LE is a faster car, I'd never consider it. I don't like the looks, it's heavy, handling is compromised. I don't like the interior and visibility doesn't look that good. On the FT86 forums you get guys that owned basically any performance car you can name and they still enjoy driving this car for the purity of handling and that balance. It's got 205 hp but I do powerslides with 3 people on board. And that's on sticky Michelins. I redline it every day and it's just such a joy to drive. This 35K edition is a joke and everyone knows it. My 86 cost me 25K. Add some headers, an E85 tune, and you have extra 40 hp. Even on pump gas, you can get up to 30 to the wheels with full exhaust and a good tune. I'm sure the 1LE is a good car to people that like it, but think of it as sushi vs burger. Someone who prefers burgers is probably gonna be amazed that people pay twice the price for a tiny roll of rice and fish, and think they're idiots, but to each his own. I would never even consider the 1LE. In my mind, a muscle car must have a V8. But I understand why someone would buy it over the BRZ. But according to your logic, everyone should just buy the 1LE until roads are full of them. People are different. Track times aren't enough to convince everyone.
Cantcomeupwithone - is your brain broken? The 1LE Camaro handles BETTER than the BRZ tS. It's handling isn't compromised...the BRZ's power is.
I'm not saying the BRZ is bad, but this tS certainly is for it's price, and anyone who actually wants a car to track should consider the Camaro over the BRZ.
But don't worry, the tS looks like a peach in the light of that type-RA which is crazy stiff and still gets spanked by all of it's much cheaper 4-door hot hatch brethren, and the V6 Camaro.
LOL...no not enough to make up 8.4 seconds.
Remember the Camaro weighs a bit more, so it's power to weight ratio is roughly the same as a Focus ST which ran 3:17.6 here, which is in turn 2 sec faster than a BRZ performance pack...because of the power difference.
The magic of the 6th gen Camaro is mostly in how great the Alpha chassis is.
But maybe...read the reviews for yourself.
www.caranddriver.com/features/2018-subaru-brz-ts-lightning-lap-2018
www.caranddriver.com/features/2019-chevrolet-camaro-turbo-1le-at-lightning-lap-2018
Even if your opinion column were true, and most of it really isn't (especially all that stuff about torque), it wouldn't change the fact that in the $33k range the tS is objectively lacking in performance. Yes it's still a good drivers car, but so is the Camaro.
Pussy ass nigga. Cry about it