Talking Steel: Nitro-V (Tough and Stainless)
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- Опубликовано: 11 мар 2021
- Nitro-V draws its lineage from steels like AEB-L and 14C28N. It appears to me to be an improvement over these with higher corrosion resistance than AEB-L and higher hardness than 14C28N while still keeping a fine grain resulting in high toughness. The increased C and N aid in higher hardness and the V addition helps keep grains smaller at the higher austenitizing temperatures required for higher hardness.
Overall I think it's a great stainless steel choice for those looking for high toughness in a stainless steel and want more corrosion resistance than AEB-L. It is key that it is hardened properly to at least above 59HRc to appreciate the fine edge performance. If abrasive materials like cardboard or rope are commonly cut, this steel is probably not the best choice due to low carbide content and no VC.
CORRECTIONS:
5:26 Nitrogen forms nitrides not carbides.
5:58 Particle metallurgy not just crucibles CPM process.
12:17 LC200N has all nitrides not carbides.
Outpost 76: • Nitro V edge retention...
Cedric and Ada: • Nitro V vs 14c28n - Gr...
See corrections in the description to a couple mistakes made in the video. I don't write a script so sometimes I mix up my words.
The hamon on that knife is beautiful.
Lamination line rather? They did some sort of finishing and acid etch on just the exposed core steel and it looks awesome indeed!
I’m not that into steel make ups , genetically speaking, but enjoyed that and enjoyed reading up in the chat , just give me a steel I can sharpen and keep sharp 😂
Everyone is welcome here! Glad you enjoyed!
Very awesome!
Thank you!
I have no experience with aeb-l. I do, however, have quite a bit of experience with 14c28n and nitro v. 14c28n and nitro v both sharpen extremely similar. They are both able to take a very high polish edge and, for "budget/midgrade" steels, they hold that top end sharpness for a respectable amount of time. For budget steels, 14c28n and nitro v are my favorites.
My experience is limited for all but I really enjoyed Kershaw 14C28N. They are really the perfect budget steel IMO. Very stainless, hold a good edge, tough and stabile. Only thing is I wish they would heat treat them a bit higher
very interesting. So you mentioned that AEB-L is the very toughest stainless you can get for the most part on a knife at this time, and 14c and Nitro V are gonna be similar in toughness. they need to be hardened properly to perform. That said, does Nitro V really make that much sense on a small EDC type folder? Wouldnt it be more suited to a large wilderness blade?
There is more the how these steels perform than just raw shock absorption of a woods blade. At the high hardness they can hold a really sweet thin edge that is great for edc or kitchen tasks! Sharpens up amazing too which is fun for any knife.
Honestly most large wilderness blades are so thick at the spine and edge they can be made out of almost anything and still perform well
In your opinion, for a medium or large knife, what better stainless steel (with toughness condition first, second condition is EDGE retention)?
According to the knifesteelnenerds.com report, AEB-L is x2 stronger than Nitro-V.
And the stainless steel capacity is not much different between AEB-L and Nitro-V
It depends on the environment. How much do you really need the stainlessness? If it’s used around seawater you will definitely notice the upgrade in Nitro-V. But where I live, M4 and Cruwear don’t have rust issues so AEB-L would be the better choice. It’s lower cost and tougher so one really needs to have a reason for the extra corrosion resistance of Nitro-V.
So with toughness AEB-L at the same hardness and geometry will out perform Nitro-V. For edge retention AEB-L can be run harder and thinner while having the same toughness as softer Nitro-V. So the latter case is how I’d recommend utilizing the properties of AEB-L
Here in my country There's a maker using this kind of steel.
It gets hardened to 57 HRC ( machine tested ).
The maker is Ambrogio Sanelli , the knives are inexpensive.
It’s a nice blade steel but 57HRc doesn’t really make sense to me. Even in an outdoor blade that seems overly conservative on the hardness unless the geometry is fragile but that doesn’t really match an outdoor use.
@@EngineersPerspective701 It's a kitchen knife :)
Definitely low balling hardness, probably should be 62-63HRc for a kitchen knife. BUT cutting geometry is key so if they are nailing that and are inexpensive the knives are probably still a good buy!
@@EngineersPerspective701 63 hrc ? nah man 😂🙈 way too much hardness makes the knife too brittle.
Check out some Japanese cutlery, 63HRc is mid-range! My K390 delica is ~65HRc and I love that thing.
I know absoluty nothing of metallurgy or if im even asking the right questions but id like to know what steels would you use for cutting wood, cardboard and meat? can you recommend a couple or one for each category? Also, what are your thoguhts on Civivi's damascus steel or any "damacus" steel for that matter is it worth using for an edc or is it just pretty and hyped up? apperciate your input thank you in advance looking forward to your response.
What you’re cutting is just as important of how and why. What are the situations you’re thinking for wood and meat? Cardboard is dealing with the odd box or you work in a warehouse?
Civics Damascus isn’t anything special but it’s not garbage either. Probably better off with their standard 9Cr18MoV.
@@EngineersPerspective701 a good steel for warehouse cardboard boxes and for the wood im looking for a good bushcraft fixed blade steel for medium/small branches maybe small firewood splitting and for the meat im looking for a good steel to carve up deer and other small/medium game
Thank you for your input on the damascus i will definently look at some 9Cr18MoV thank you
@@EngineersPerspective701 Hey not to bug you but i replyed to your comment and havent heard back from you would greatly apperciate it if you could still give me some suggestions thank you again
@@MikeA-lo9xu no sweat, I lost track of it! First pick is usually the non-stainless options and then I give the stainless recommendation.
Cardboard: Maxamet from spyderco. S110V if you need stainless.
Wood: Nitro-V or Magnacut. I’d recommend stainless for this one.
Meat/Hunting: 10V or K390. S90V if you need stainless.
@@EngineersPerspective701 Thank you very much truly apperciate your help and insight I will most definitely be looking for these steels : ]
But what do you mean by working edge? So do you not suggest aeb-l or nitro-v for kitchen knives
Opposite, they are great steels for kitchen knives especially if they are done hard.
Neither develop a working edge because they don't have enough carbide. A working edge is when the initial hair popping sharpness is abraded away during cutting and reveals micro teeth (carbides) that will continue to cut. Hard AEB-L will instead hold that nice initial edge longer and then, somewhat suddenly, go dull. Abrasion isn't a major contributor to dulling in the kitchen so the ability to hold a working edge is usually not a desired steel trait by chefs.
Many prefer the wonderful sharpening of simpler steels like AEB-L and carbon steels in the kitchen because of how fine the edge can be sharpened and how long they hold it.
If you enjoy sharpening, AEB-L is the 2nd best sharpening stainless steel I've come across. Almost feels like a carbon steel.
@@EngineersPerspective701 if so what would you recommend for a laser class chef knife? aeb-l? or Nitro-v? and at what hardness? and what about honing ability? It seems like aeb-l and nitro-v lacks in edge retention so if I go low hrc would it be easier to have it little lower hardness and do a quick one two pass on on a honing rod? I personally dont use honing rod at all but seems good option when I am in middle of service and my knife goes dull.
I am a culinary art student planning to order a custom knife and he offers aeb-l and nitro-v and he said he can harden hardness I want. And I am planning to use that knife as my everyday work knife and I can't really decide which steel at which hardness. I already made up the design I want but I really cant decide on which steel at which hardness.
@@smithgeorge6858 Your reasoning is a little backwards here so I'll try to explain.
First I want to note that the maker's knowledge and skill will be the #1 dictator of what to target. If they've never made a knife in that steel and hardness then pass on it. The heat treat is the soul of the blade so it must be done well if you're paying for a custom.
1) Take aogami super at 65HRc for example. Famed for taking and holding a great edge. Yet it technically has less edge retention than AEB-L based on carbide volume at about 1/3 of what AEB-L has. Also less tough than AEB-L by a lot. Yet it does so well because it is HARD AS HELL.
2) You say that AEB-L doesn't hold an edge. The logical step would then be to make it HARD to compensate. The beauty of AEB-L is it's super tough at high hardness compared to most steels. It's a perfect candidate for the application. Going soft would be like buying Ferrari and putting mudding tires on it.
In short, I'd choose AEB-L at 63-64HRc. If you're concerned about loosing the edge then buy either a MAC or Idahone ceramic rod (NO DIAMOND RODS!) and that'll keep you up and running.
If you want more stainlessness then go Nitro-V. I haven't used it personally so I have to recommend what I can speak to which is AEB-L. I'm sure Nitro-V would be great too.
@@EngineersPerspective701 ok totally don't understand why but i totally got it with your super blue example. I do own super blue they take nice edge and they don't go dull as fast other knives even though their edge retention is even lower than aeb-l in the knife nerd graph And one more question do you suggest mac white(1200grit) ceramic or black(2000grit)? For 63~64hrc aeb-l
@@smithgeorge6858 Either works. I prefer higher grit rods for honing.
Nitro-v at HRC 59 is a waste and blades that are at that HRC haven't had a proper heat treatment and cryo. Even the knife steel nerds review about it and results based on how they say it should be heat treated is incorrect. If you really want to see the performance of Nitro-V it needs to go through a vacuum hardening process then rapidly cooled with nitrogen gas followed by deep Cryogenic quench in liquid nitrogen its expensive but the end result is a steel that outperform the majority of other steels in toughness, edge retention and its still fairly easy to maintain a edge. People have been basing its performance on knives being manufactured buy companies who mass produce knives who put profit margins first who are doing the most cost effective heat treatment or from knife makers following a someone that people view as a expert who posts a heat treatment protocol on the their site that's not going to achieve maximum performance.
100% agree. I’d say a majority of all blades made from any steel are “wasted” in terms of their potential. But unfortunately that means realistically speaking the way people will interact with this steel will be in that lower range and same goes for AEB-L.
Even in customs it doesn’t seem like makers are going much past 61-62HRc on nitro-V which is well within the hardness range of AEB-L as well. So at the end of the day it is a more stainless AEB-L is all. Now that’s a major compliment in my mind because they are major outliers in the stainless steel class only really accompanied my Magnacut at this point.
Aeb-l is very prone to warping during HT & the HRC achievable with Aeb-l varies from batch to batch and which plant has manufactured it the average with a great HT will be HRC 60-62. To try and avoid serious warping with Aeb-l knife makers need to leave a thicker bevels Prior to HT and then remove excess stock & finish them afterwards. Problem then is the HRC test was done straight after HT removing the excess stock unless they have a water cooled platen set up the HT is affected. Nitro-v doesn't suffer from that problem it can have bevels ground down very thin to about 98% only needing the final cutting edge to be done and when HT using Vacuum has absolutely zero warping and HRC is repeatable as it's manufactured by one plant. Also saying they are basically the same as they can achieve HRC 62 with the Nitro-V being more stainless is not correct because Nitro-V is also much tougher & shock resistant than Aeb-l if both are HRC 62 and holds a superior edge.
@@krakentacticaledc Can't speak to the warping issue so that is a great note to have. And keep in mind this video is more of a production focused video because that is what most will have the opportunity to experience. Once you start talking custom, then really it's a completely different conversation as I'm sure you know well! It's like going from production cars to F1.
I really have a hard time believing the difference between the two is SO significant assuming a quality heat treat on AEB-L and you're being consistent in your material procurement. With the extra Nitrogen and splash of V in Nitro-V I can see how it would be easier to achieve higher hardness without generating excess carbides and/or blowing up the grain, thus reducing the toughness. So my guess if you've seen this happen with AEB-L, then one or both of those things are happening.
So does nitro-v have better edge retention? Since it's less tough?
Being less tough doesn’t necessarily indicate higher edge retention although they are strongly correlated.
Between the three steels whichever is heat treated the to the highest HRc hardness will have the best retention.
Very dependent on the maker.
Theoretically both Nitro-V and AEB-L have the same hardness potential I think.
@@EngineersPerspective701 so in practical terms, nitro-v has no real benefit over the others? Except a cooler name?
@@MRGoods89 more stainless is the problem it solves. I’ve had AEB-L get some light rust from sitting on the drying mat for a night (mother and law used it). Nitro V would have be spotless
Hi Justin, are you familiar with BGM Knives? Coming in the mail are two of John Miller's CKKs (compact kitchen knife) in Nitro-V which are cryogenic-ally heat treated in house at 60 to 61 HRC. I'd attached pics but RUclips won't allow. John is 22-years-old, a pleasure to deal with and making a pretty good name for himself in the knife community. Check out his work, both website and Instagram page.
Yeah I've heard a lot about him through Outpost76 and NotYourAverageEDC and been tempted but none of the designs when I last checked fit a need for me. However the CKK is new and that looks like a sweet deal! His prices have always been very fair so that may need to be pushed up towards the front of the buy list! Really like that size too.
@@EngineersPerspective701 How can I send pics of the two he made for me?
seems like a bit of a pointless video. was looking for info specifically on nitro v. saying it depends heavily on hardness is a bit obvious as most if not all steels depend heavily on hardness. very little info on nitro v here just talking about other steels in the majority of this video. thumbs down 100%
Yeah pretty much laid it out right off the hop there to save you some time. If you have experience with the others it can give you an idea where it will land relative to those. Plus they are the direct precursors to Nitro V