Highly Controversial! Our Assessment of Dark Knight Strikes Again by Frank Mill and Lynn Varley!
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
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This is the only comic I seriously thought about returning to the comic store for my money back -- but I didn't want to hurt the comic store financially so I kept it.
I bought this issue by issue when it came out and I thought it was a bonkers masterpiece. Miller didn't repeat himself he went bigger and crazier.
DKRU version of Robin, as I read it: Dick Grayson was a "failure" as a crime fighter, a victim of a younger Batman's crusade against crime - Wayne FORCED Grayson into the war - literally kidnapped him, tortured him and manipulated him into his cause. Wayne believes his motives are mirrored in Grayson, but they're not - as Grayson makes clear in DKSA. Carrie Kelly joins it in DKR of her own free will, not in a desire for revenge but order and justice.
Grayson needed a father that Batman couldn't be, while Kelly literally wanted to fight the Batman's war - her parents are still alive, but are dead to her through their apathy to the societal decay around them.
ALL-STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN was supposed (and was well on the way) to show how Grayson "failed" and started on his road to the thing he is in DKSA. People didn't like it - Miller's Batman is a sociopathic terrorist with no room for anything but his war; it's lain out here in DKSA and but made uncomfortably explicit in ASBR.
Obviously, I love this book😂
Thank you for this. Dick was not made for the war that Frank Miller’s Batman is fighting. Jason was a better warrior for him. And Carrie was whatever he wanted her to be. 2 years later, just have to appreciate this take
@@DigitaIJusticemaybe its less so about finding the “right” child soldier and just flat out saying child soldier bad but who knows
One of the craziest comics ever. I personally loved it. It was like Miller was determined to destroy the grim and gritty legacy of Returns. It changes it’s art style issue to issue and goes into so many weird directions. It’s a cartoonish satire. And it’s more of a Dc universe story rather than a Batman story. Here’s another backhanded compliment, it’s like Frank Miller got amnesia and rediscovered superheroes and drawing.
Oh my God. That is probably the best take on this book I've ever heard. I remember when it was released; I couldn't wait to pick up my copy of the first issue. I read it, re-read it, and was just befuddled. This is the team that created Dark Knight returns? What the hell happened?!
Got this as a unfortunately non-negotiable package deal w/DKR Absolute and just went WTF ! Having just experienced the Noir version ... well - - the Noir version is the definitive one for sure and completely redeems the work - it succeeds for one simple reason - you can actually READ it. I mean the text is CLEAR, and the illustration secondary but still powerful, experimental and honestly so impressive. The inking, the decisions taken and the lines are INSANELY great - up there with Sin City vol.1 maybe better b/c it's a mix of Elektra Lives Again and Sin City - this incredible artwork is TOTALLY lost in the colour version. There were whole sequences that made no impression on me reading for the first time because the colour was so overwhelmingly LOUD and KRAZY. DKSA Noir is a completely different reading experience - the opposite of the 9 panel grid and serious, respectful DKR. To me DK Strikes Again Noir is the ultimate edition - and this one... just an interesting experiment.
I love when you guys are critical of stuff. I loved this comic when it came out and I like it more now and it’s so much fun to discuss. Miller is never boring. Also, bring Tom in more!
I was at the Kubert School in 2011 and the story of the NDAs was the same. One brother came in with a beautiful OG Sin City page of Marv in a cell, the other brother brought up the NDAs and talked about how Miller didn't have interest in doing it but DC paid 5k/page and that kind of money was just too much for anyone to say no to. Honestly don't know if it's true but it makes sense when you look at it that Miller is having fun and in the context of this is a "fuck you" in regards to the original. He also told us just on pre-orders DC more than recouped all of their money.
At 48:05 Tom ist pointing at a small panel "I still don't know what this is."
I think it is the head of a Tyrannosaurus right at the moment an asteroid is colliding with Earth. "THEN CAME THE FIRE. FROM THE SKY."
@@graham2021 I came here to say that. Miller loves to draw Dinos. You'll find them in almost ever one of his books.
Your channel is helping me enjoy comics again; thank you.
Tom picking out the opening quote that I have been paraphrasing for the last 20 years to defend this book I am so glad to hear the lads enjoy this for what it is rather than what it isnt. Great video
I would've never even imagined wanting to pick this up one day but because of this video, makes me wanna give it a shot. Great overview-whats the story about the green ranger at the convention?
Frank was at the top of the mountain and jump down with no parachute.
@ 10:17 I had the same reaction. I picked it up, flipped through the pages, and put it back. I was very disappointed with what I saw.
Thanks for doing this. I loved how in a lot of ways it was the antithesis of TDKR and Miller's other dark work prior to this because of the way the colors pop off the page.
Lynn Varley's colors in this remind me of Neville Brody's color experiments with Photoshop in the late 80s-early 90s.
I remember being so mad about how terrible this book was when I bought it brand new, I ended up taking a break from comics. As a lifetime Miller mark, I felt completely abused.
Search anna sellheim "Theory: Frank Miller’s recent work is good, but it isn’t getting the right colour treatment". The art is way better using flat colors.
Interesting - thanks.
Union Square Virgin megastore held a signing for the 1st issue, I got one and Miller was real cool, chatted with everyone in line.
I recently bought the noir edition of Dark Knight Strikes Again and it was a completely different reading experience. Everything clicked better.
I instantly liked this comic soon as I read it. It was shocking, original & cool.
I remember picking this up new off the shelf at Barnes and Noble, opening it up and thinking....WTF is this crap? I put it down and ended up getting the whole set at Half Price Books for $3.00 a few months later. I did finally read it and thought it was pretty okish. Ed was spot-on with his assessment of Varley using new technological tools (and the bit about websites being annoying as F with all the banners and flashy blinking text).
the story telling of this comic had elements of 9/11 that as a kid I found really cool . love the character design and their stories all coming together .
I love everything Frank has done with Batman. I love this and All-Star Batman.
I personally never got the feeling that Bruce and Carrie were romantic at the end. Them admitting their love for each other felt more platonic to me, nothing about it seemed sexual, and Bruce doesn't even admit his feelings out loud. The whole time they felt more Father/Daughter.
Scioli cracks me up - 53:14 "and DC was like: NO THANK YOU"
I was 18 when Dark Knight Strikes Again came out. I was so excited to read it that I picked it up before a night out with the boys so I carried it around with me as we hit up night clubs - which was awesome because I had show that artwork to girls and try to explain that it’s a stylistic choice and not something for children. Ah, Great memories.
“Interesting comic, but I think a lot of that interest comes from the context,… as much as what is on the page.”
Nailed it.
I always loved it. I think the key was I read it before I read Dark Knight returns. The part that always stuck with me is that part where the atom is microscopic and he's fightging that tentacle monster. Something about that lodged in my brain forever, and was welcome there, and that simple part sold me on the rest of the book forever. I also love how much the story is about the kryptonians. Everything is so raw and against the grain. I love it.
I finally read this. I think the garish color is perfect. I think the visual storytelling is brilliant. I did however have a hard time following the story.
I like your approach, you guys are picking through it with a critical eye, seeing work you think works and what doesn't, and then giving context to all the elements involved include your personal history with the thing.
Totally spot on criticisms and more importantly, praises!! Yes, it looked like a photoshop n00b colored it...but when Varley drops the cheesy filters, there is some beautiful color field work in DKII and this might be heresy...but I would love to see a gallery edition of the original drawings!
I still love this; I have this along with DK1 and read both from time to time. Really fun and schlocky to read through, and feels like you're reading a Roger Corman version of the Dark Knight movies lol.
Awesome video! How about a review of Frank Miller's Dark Knight 3: The Master Race? That was a vastly superior story...almost an apology piece for the way he treated both Batman, and especially Superman, in DK1 and 2.
Definitely better after some years of separation and lowered expectations. Was a Miller apologist until recently with Superman: Year One. That book was finally a bridge too far for me.
Stopped watching this video 24.07 in to read the book again
Great review. Plastic Man was the best in this comic.
When we getting DKIII? Gotta know what you guys think.
Same
Outside of asking Lynn her intentions, I don’t think the coloring was an intentional choice. Her lovely washes & airbrush don’t translate. Her color control is still there but the application is lacking. Loses that murky atmosphere I liked in the first issue that added to the whole vibe of the book.
I'm just commenting before I even watch this video. I love this book. Yes the art is almost laughable compared to Miller's best. But I feel like he's doing it as a "don't worry about the art, focus on the heroes. We're bastardizing them." It's self aware, self deprecating, and it's almost like Miller was angry that he'd sort been a part of this dark age of comics. All of this to say I could be 1 billion percent incorrect, and probably am. But I love this book
I totally agree!
Very excited to hear what you fellas have to say about this'n.
This was the perfect review for this comic. Acknowledging what doesn't work, but talking about how THAT'S what makes it memorable.
Now do HOLY TERROR...
The more time passes, the stronger this book gets
Yes!
loved it when it came out, love it now.
I think the beaten up, floppy eared jagged tooth Batman at story climax is also a tribute to Kurtzman's Mad Magazine "Vampire Batboy" Comic
I bought this as it came out and by the second issue I said to someone I felt like this was a case of they were going to make this without Miller and he didn't want them to so he agreed to make it himself. Then once he'd got the first issue out there it was too late and he purposely made it trash. I thought he made it horrible on purpose and then by the end I just felt like he was just insane. I didn't read anything Miller after that other than All Star Batman and Robin and again that was insane too.
Wow recently got into comics & scooped a free Red Room issue while hitting up my local shop, funny I’m finding the artist’s channel through a Batman video 😂🔥
Sick stuff 👌🏽👌🏽
It’s a testament to how gripping this tale is when you go off on a five-minute tangent about eating Adam West’s food. 🤣
I love dark knight strikes back... it's my favorite miller book
I just read this last week for the first time and was really looking forward to hearing you guys talk about this. Thanks for the vid and Red Room 2 was great
Petition to release DKSA as a black and white comic that's restored to the original Frank MIll ink textures?
Great episode, dudes. Man, this thing pissed me off when I read it! You make some great points, particularly about his anti-Batman sensibility and intentional, gleeful, fan disservice. Twenty years on, this book is good for a (sometimes uncomfortable) laugh. Cheers!
I remember reading TDKSA knowing everybody hated it for years. I ended finding this book being so fun I actually prefer it to TDKR (I never really took seriously either, hilarious to read batman monologues out loud).
This shit makes me think of Paper Rad too, glad I’m not the only one! Some weird mash up between Jose Munoz, Reboot and Ben Jones? Short-circuits my brain looking at it
Some may call this minimal, I call it thumbnails. The lack of backgrounds doesn’t do this any favors.
Usually when the art is this wonky I can’t get into it, but I really liked where he brought some of the characters, and the black suited flash is a cool design
Could have used another hour of this. So fun.
Frank Miller does the wildest version of Batman and the DC universe people slag this book but it’s probably my favorite version of a future justice league and DK3 only gets wilder
I've been waiting for this!
Great post. My favorite part was when you guys told your Danny Glover Adam West story, fucking halarious !
Bought it when it came out. And threw issue 1 in the garbage after I finished it. Still just as bad as I remember it.
Good points made sorry if you do address it since I'm writing this while watching but will you take a look at the "Batman noir" black and white version of Dark Knight Strikes again? Or what are your thoughts on that version and does it fix some of the issues?
At: 48:00, Tom Scioli says, "I _still_ don't know what this is." Isn't that a T-Rex being silhouetted against fire in the sky?
I don’t hate it. In fact I defended it for a long time, but looking at it now...I remember why it’s not on my bookshelf.
All I can say is this series was like the hunchback of Norte Damne ,you want to look away but you cant
I agree with those who like DK2; I even liked it when it came out and it seemed back then that most people didn't. Think about the position Miller was in. He couldn't just do what he did in 1986 with The Dark Knight Returns. He had to up the ante on everything, or it just would have been seen as a dull re-run. To make a comic that would shake things up and be a critique both on American society and on comics new status quo (that he had a hand in creating) it had to be more outlandish, more satirical, more over the top. I also think Lynn Varley was in on that mission in a major way, too. You think computer coloring is garish now? Wait until you see DK2!
At 48:09, you're looking at a T-rex raising its head to the sky as an asteroid hits the planet. The two angels are talking about how long they've been on Earth, and how it was a 'happy place' until the asteroid hit and killed off the dinosaurs. Sorry, this has probably already been answered, but that's the way I interpreted it... (Oh, and, as always, this was a wonderful breakdown. I love listening to the analysis of comics on this channel. You're doing brilliant and important work in a medium that doesn't get the deep and textured analysis that it truly deserves.)
58:44 a Franquin reference in the last panel, see his cover for 'Ideés Noires'.
I never bought this when it first came out simply because I didn't know about it. I wasn't buying comics that much around the late 90s/early 2000s. Then I started up again and saw DK2 mentioned somewhere and how panned it got. Artistically speaking, the book has some bright spots here and there. I'd have to nab a copy of this and really look at it.
I love the spiral bound collection! Sweet!
Damn bro you are an Artist! Man I wish I had the talent great drawings bro.
Man a paper rad reference was the last thing I expected in these videos haha
I ignored it for years. Then borrowed it from a library thinking I would hate it. I loved it. More than Dark Knight Returns.
It was worth sticking around just to hear your own stories about being in places you are not suppose to be, please let me hear more of your comicbook related adventures and misadventures :)
PG 68 is a TRex
Clearly coconut palm fronds being blown sideways a la nuclear testing in the Pacific & a Tyrannosaurus head a la Devil Dinosaur. All the stylistic stuff you were more critical of 100% works for me. My main crit of DK2 is the racist depictions a la "Jihad!".
Nice meeting yall today at Maui Comicon. Thanks for the deals & your channel here (reviewing an all time fav book of mine here). Subscribed.
I’ve always wondered why I didn’t get all the third issue. 911 changed my priorities I guess.
It changed Frank's as well
I love this book - it's post rock deconstruction.
I read the original run in the 80s and this was definetly quite shocking when i first sat down with it.
It was definetly a WOW and a WTF for me.
Miller really dosen't do lip service to the past and any baggage of expectation we carry for hin, as many did going into this in 2001 were going to get their balls ripped off at page 1.
JRJR 2001 Spidey was also great work but i really doubt you were there as it was memorable and you ask what else was going on?
Well la de dahh girls lah de fuckin dahh.
The enemy is the individual and the Hero is the masses.
What exactly was it that you did good lately?
Vva Farnk.
The Frank Miller take on superheroes, where instead of existing to help all the normal people, they are viewed as being held back by normal people’s stupidity and mediocrity, is pretty fascinating.
This thing's a God damned masterpiece.
This is probably the ugliest comic book I have in my collection.
I have looked at this dozens of times but it’s still my least favorite of the trilogy. I do recommend Dark Knight 3 , it’s good because it’s more of a Superman story than Batman and has many collaborators on this series. Of course the first will always be my favorite
Serious question…has Miller talked about if he was partaking in certain recreational substances when he made this? Because it definitely seems like it.
Yes- I hated it when it came out but now I think artistically drawing wise its his best work. The only thing thats keeping it from being another Miller masterpiece is the colour. I still truly wish Varley painted it. I remember some of the promo stuff for this was painted and it looked breathtaking. Interesting fact- the closer I get to the age Miller wrote that particular work the more I like it. I think he always writes for himself and doesnt care much if people like it or not- all that matters is that he gets off on it.
1:01:15 - y'all talk here about how it reminds you of U2's Zooropa and ZooTV tour. Just as an FYI - that whole schtick was stolen by u2 from a band called Negativland. (if you look up Negativland's latest live video and you can easily see what I'm talking about) Prior to the Zooropa album & tour, Negativland was sued by U2 and Island records for a Negtivland album tiltled "U2" which sampled the song "I still havent found what I'm looking for". This is the exact same Island records legal department Dave Gibbons was talking about almost wouldn't let them use that John Cale quote in the final panel of Watchmen.
LOL @ Tom "It's shit!"
He's not wrong.
48:07 It’s a dinosaur head lol
Haven’t even watched the vid but I’m one of the few people that actually like DK2. All the DK books imo were amazing.
All due respect, this was the moment I stopped trusting Frank Miller as a writer. Maybe it reads more relevant with 20 years passed, but when I read book 3 after waiting all that time, I was just so put off, I took the first 2 books, gave them back to my friend who sold them to me at his store, and told him to take them. No refund. No trade in value. Just take them.
I love his art style, but I'll never touch anything he writes post DK2 ever again.
One of my favourites.
I like this series a lot more now than I did when it came out. I'm really glad Frank didn't draw DKIII himself though.
The bit with the Atom is the only thing I really liked about this series (though I didn’t hate the rest of it) . Miller should have done an The Atom Returns book
I think the art and storytelling on Holy Terror, what would've been Miller's next Batman, are worth a look; it seems an advance on this work. The attitudes embedded in the story are problematic, but it feels more like an old movie serial than a mature political statement; in fact there's almost a retreat to moral simplicity that feels like the power fantasies of a juvenile comic reader. It's like Rory Hayes struggling with Clint Eastwood.
I would have loved if he made 4 more issues. It may have knocked him off from being the king, but in the grand scheme i think it adds to his legacy.
I have hated pretty much everything Miller has done since the first Dark Knight (don't get me started on Holy Terror), so I'm eagerly watching this one.
I love DKSA it’s simentiously a great break away from Miller’s style while also a natural extension of it.
I think I'm in minority but I'm freaking love Dark Knight Strikes Again.
rad.
my favorite plastic man ever
Dude, Blades WERE IN in 01.
WHAT THE HELL DID YOU THINK THE XGAMES WERE??
ROCKET POWER??
FUCKEN TONY HAWK GAMES?? LMAO
This video made me like my Dark Knight Absolute more.
I'm not saying that Batman in the Dark Knight is a Nazi, or Racist and I will give Miller some leeway (or would if based on this. The Miller who wrote Holy Terror, not so much) in that as Alan Moore observed the Superhero is prone to falling into Fascist tropes.
BUT
What is interesting in Millers comprehensive deconstruction of Batman and his psyche is what we DON'T see, in fact we see no hint of it at all. Bruce Wayne Millionaire philanthropist. There is no Wayne Foundation. No grants for the poor, no kind words and "call this number tomorrow Roxy, Wayne owes me a favour you can have a decent job" to a woman stuck in prostitution. No renewal of Gotham.
All fairly important bits of the mythos. YES Batman spends his night beating the living tar out of criminals, including street level ones some of whom almost certainly are victims of society. But Bruce DOES try to make things better. The only hint of anything like this in the book is his paying for Harvey Dents treatment and that seems to be for a self serving reason connected to his trying to deny Batman.
I can only assume that Miller did not think this part of Batman was remotely important, or worse went against the character.
The other thing is of course, once someone points out Batman IS a fascist in this. Then the seemingly "happy ending" of Bruce retired and teaching the next generation of crime fighters suddenly becomes Dark as Feck. Bruce, ironically given a nudge by Oliver Queen, realises Batman is not the solution and fakes his death. Then gathers all the Former Mutants to train them as his very own Militia.
Batman quite literally ends the tale as Ra's Al Ghul (and if you think he can't find a Lazarus pit if he needs one...)