Micron Seating Dies - Straighter Ammo?
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
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I'm an engineer,... I love all your videos!
Love your work Keith. You convinced me
Thanks for the comparison. For now I'll stick with my Wilsons. Lord knows I'm the biggest ES on target right now..
I feel that. Im always the weak point
Difference is measurable, but begs the question; Does it actually shoot any better?
Guys over at Hornady will tell you with confidence it will not make a material differnce to mean group radius.
Go watch the vidoe F-class John made on runout, makes no difference
Does it show on Target? Will you make a Video on that, too? Great work!!
Yeah, same as the other comments, I'm only really interested once you've seen a statistically significant difference in group size. You've shown us a few variables that 'don't really matter' before. Till then, I still love my Wilson.
There are 5 comments ahead of mine and most are wanting to know if the point of the video makes a difference on target. I wondered the same thing but I also think those folks missed the point. This video was only to demonstrate the differences in the 2 dies and subsequent runout. The video was not about how runout may or may not affect the outcome on target. That's for us to consider. If you want to know about that, you can see what Mr. Erik Cortina said on one of his videos and that is he doesn't even check runout anymore.
I thought I recently saw that Short Action Customs also has an Arbor type die. Wonder how it would compare. By the way, years ago when I was on the phone with Boots Obermeyer, he stated to me his "cull" loads at a 600 yard match with too much runout shot his best group of the day, which of course, did not count as they were his warm up/practice loads. His best loads with minimal runout didn't fair so well
They may have missed the point of the specific video, but, I think they are wise in asking the bigger question - of - 'yes, and so what?' - people love to fixate on things, people love to buy new toys, but, at a point you do have to ask if it's making any practical difference.
On saying that, I do have one friend who cuts grains of powder in half to get exact measurements. Does it make a difference? Even he would admit that he can't tell you - but - he also likes the knowledge that he has removed any excuse except himself.
I am just more comfortable accepting its my shooting.
Of course - it's also about creating content, which I also get - I have done plenty of articles on things that don't really matter, but, are of interest to me.
@@GoodBlokesNZ Yep, definitely missed the point of this specific video. Yep, wise to ask a bigger question and certainly fertile grounds for discussion as well. But that also gets people off track of the specific video purpose. For me, I don't even compete and I'm still punching caliber size groups to 0.1s, 0.2s, 0.3s with my hunting rifles and hunting bullets with Rockchucker and Forster presses, RCBS matchmaster dies and Redding Elite dies. Thus, I have no need for an Arbor press or Arbor dies to achieve my hunting rifle and handload goals. I personally also stopped using my Sinclair runout indicator about 15 years ago once I realized it didn't make a difference. Took me awhile to figure it out but I rely on a good action, ignition, fire control and good barrel to control the ammo, even with runout. This has served me well. Getting off track here but of all the button barrel makes I've used, Broughton is best for me and for cut-rifled barrels, especially 7mm, Brux comes in first. But generally, it's a wash between Brux, Bartlein, and Krieger in my experience. The Benchmark cut-rifled barrels did not impress me like I hoped they would but in fairness I've not spent much time with them
@@Accuracy1st unfortunatly, down in little old'NZ we don't have quite the same range to work through.
I guess, like this conversation - the video intent doesn't/can't/shouldn't limit the scope of the conversation that stems off it though. It can be a good catalyst to start conversations about how the subject covered fits into the bigger picture.
When I last competed, it was in Precision Rifle - so - group size isn't what you score off, nor does the leaderboard care what your runout measurement, or ES/SD/whatevermetricyouwanttomeasure - it really seems to come down to who has their equipment sorted to a decent degree, and can then utilise that in a field situation under pressure consistently. A '1 moa gun' is fine for most things - knowing how to control your breathing and wobble zone on a jacked up position is way more important.
An aside -this isn't Todd is it? Just going off the name tag...
@@GoodBlokesNZ As Keith states right off the bat, the purpose of this video is how to load match grade ammunition or at least one little bit of that. Thereafter, his personal experience with a couple tools showed a difference in runout. For me, that's where the meat n taters ended and the big takehome message was certain dies seem to perform better than others, nothing more nothing less. I personally don't question to what degree it matters on target because I've been at this long enough I know there's just too many variables that can offset repeatable accuracy. My interpretation was he merely demonstrated a tool's useful utility to better obviate or at least minimize a variable - runout. Certainly a bigger picture exists, but the focus on the content here was pretty well laid out in the first few seconds. I used to handload weight sorted brass, weight sorted bullets, measured base to ogive of each bullet, checked runout with each load, weighed each charge one at a time (still do), use "froggy's lube" inside the necks to hopefully have more continuity with neck interference prior to bullet seating, got rid of expander buttons, use turn mandrels, neck turn, etc - all in the name of hoping for those mysterious one hole groups at 100 and 3/8 to 1/2" at 200, and I still do a lot of this. Then I started buying better barrels, better actions, better triggers, top tier stocks, chose better bedding compounds making my own dummy rounds and getting my own reamers made and found out a well built rifle can control even mediocre ammo to a degree I didn't realize prior. This is a reason I never took up any kind of competition. I think my blood pressure would go up! And by competition, for me it would be whatever type requires the smallest groups. For me, that's the primary reason I started handloading. I want to see how tight I can get the ammo on paper so when the time comes to fill a tag, I have as much confidence as possible. And I have experienced the same thing Mr. Obermeyer did years ago. Many times my CULL ammo shoots better than my best (little to no runout) ammo. It's a mystery. But I've seen it enough times I just don't even touch my Sinclair runout indicator anymore. And speaking of filling tags, down there in little old NZ, you have stags there I fantasize about hunting. Doubt I'll ever be able to do it though. No. I'm not Todd
@@Accuracy1st no question about what the video is about. I don't think anyone is questioning that either? Of course - that doesn't then limit what the comments section should be.
Yeah. We have some good animals down here. Though - most of the monster monsters are private land, not what most of us hunt either. ;)
Appreciate the content as usual. However, in PRS it really doesn't matter.
What's very interesting is so much effort is placed into perfect concentricity but people like F Class John have done anecdotal testing and has purposefully loaded ammo WAY crooked, and the on paper results don't show that perfect concentricity is really all that big of an issue to even worry about.
Are you trying to say my ammo isn’t straight? Strange times we live in😮😂
LOL
Will they cut custom ones im searching for a 25x47 chamber die
I use a concentricity gauge that can straighten bullets. Even using the Micron, the bullets need some adjustment.
A Wilson die and a Short Action Customs bushing will give you Zero to .0005 run out.
Same combo for me, same result
But does it shoot better?
I'm not going to question buying a better die, even at $300+, but I will question the difference it makes on target. I have done my own concentricity tests and have stopped measuring runout because of the results. I can't tell a difference on target.
Staighter ammo (question mark)
Did you run those rounds into the your chamber, remove them, and measure them again?
No, there is more than a little bit of context that applies there. Feeding from a magazine is far different from single shot action feeding.
Now the million dollar question…….does it make a difference on target??
I'm curious what the min and max runout was. Also, you showed a .001" indicator for your runout gauge, but report a mean of .00126. This seems to violate the principle of significant figures. From where I sit those two results are identical.
Question for you - You have 4 bags of apples. One bag has one apple, one has 4 apples, and two have 3 apples each. What is the average number of apples in a bag?
@@winninginthewind There is a significant difference when dealing with things you can count (units), and things you can measure (measures). The two are not the same. What's happening here is you are presuming your measurements are perfect, and they cannot be. Either a) you squint real hard and estimate the ten-thousandths position, or b) you can see the needle a little above or below the line, but you don't care and you just report the nearest thousandth. In either case, your _measure_ has some error in it, and thus lacks _precision_. You then go on to report a really really long decimal which implies that you have such precision when in fact you don't. The correct way to address this is to either only report the correct amount of sig figs or put error bars on it. Also, for completeness, you have 2.75 apples (average units).
Only question I'm left with was what was your total run out average with this die?
.00126" it was on screen with the stats.
Meh who cares if they gave u the die. If it better it better🎉🎉🎉🎉. But I mic and runout all my ammo anyways. So i keep what I got going. But thanks for the info never the less🎉🎉
Interesting a die that sponsored you is better.
How did the die sponsor him? Bullet central sells stuff, it doesnt manufacture anything...
That's fair... I can understand the cynicism as RUclips is nothing but advertising.
Bullet Central gave me the die for free.
Well, that test only included one example of dies from each manufacturer. And on that alone we have a conclusion that Micron dies are better? Nonsense. Not to even speak about the actual importance of such small difference which cannot be seen on a target in bench rest let alone in PRS. I was a loyal follower until now Keith, but this clearly smells like a commercial. I am out, Thanks for putting out so much good content in the past, this is not doing it any service.