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Everyone that created this CrAP needs to burn in hell. Dr Who is VOMIT that gives SF a bad name. DEATH to Dr. Who and all the shitty fans. Dr. Who is why kids get beat up in school, instead of being respected. Dr. Who is STEAMING GARBAGE, it is not not not not SF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dr Who is VOMIT that gives SF a bad name. Dr Who is VOMIT that gives SF a bad name. Dr Who is VOMIT that gives SF a bad name. Dr Who is VOMIT that gives SF a bad name. CARDBOARD scripts written by loser morons FOR loser morons.
@@noneone8726 Chill out, and let people like what they like. You don't like doctor who, cool. I like doctor who, cool. But being so toxic about what other people like, just because you yourself don't like it makes you a toxic peace of shit. Let people like what they want. Now go back to your basement.
It was a crime that you did not highlight the best part of this two-parter: The fact that Donna's dream man is a guy with a stutter so she can talk as much as she wants without interruption, and the *utter tragedy* this results in when that guy comes back to life at the end of the episode and Donna JUST misses him *because he can't call out her name in time.* Like GOD, that ending stuck with me for a LONG time after I first saw it...
I remember a joke in a podcast where they said if you could give someone a dream would you be able to give them one that gives them the perfect training to do a kickflip once they wake up, which makes sense so wouldn't he be able to speak better just from muscle memory?
@@drneotech7254 He never learned to speak better though (I don't think), he just lived with his stutter and Donna loved him for it rather than despite of it. (and even if he did improve some, high stress still worsens stutters and he was certainly highly stressed.)
You forgot one of my favorite moments from this episode: “How are you holding up?” “I’m okay.” “Is ‘okay’ super secret Time Lord speak for ‘not really okay at all’?” … “Because I’m okay too.” Not only is this moment so human by coping with grief by making a bit of a joke, but it shows how much Donna is becoming like The Doctor. Enough like him to know how he’s feeling and to hide her feelings the same way he does. For shadowing the meta crisis even further.
It's a shame they didn't use the same verbage at the end of Journey's End when Donna is pretending to be fine when The Doctor knows she can't cope with the Metacrisis. Would've have been a great callback
Not really because Wandavision is loosely based off of the House of M story arc in the comics which came out in 2005 before this season of Doctor who. So Marvel still did the whole made up dream stuff first.
@@emersonharrop5775 yeah but its so loose that the only things it has in common is reality bending, scarlet witch and her being really sad due to deaths Its about as close to House of M as Ned is to Harry Osborne The comic didn't do the dream/reality is like a TV show stuff at all
@@conradlorgar5508 The House of M did do the dream reality thing, Wanda gave everyone their dream lives like Spider man still had Uncle Ben and Gwen whilst his identity being public and his family was safe or Wolverine being the director of SHIELD, Captain America never went into the jce and got to loke out his life etc. It may nit have done it like a TV show but it still did the dream reality which was my original point.
I think one of the saddest things in this episode is when Donna is speaking to her kids before they disappear they say “when you blink it’s like we don’t exist” and she says “I promise to never blink again” then it cuts to the next shot and you actually see her blink and then her kids are gone
Alex Kingston absolutely killed it in this two-parter, especially for only an introduction. Her mixture of grief, love, and understanding were heart-wrenching.
Omg how can u not mentions the parallels when the 10th doctor says “Time can be rewritten” then she says “don’t u dare” then how her younger self in 11th says “Time can be rewritten” then the doctors older self is the one saying “don’t u dare”. They learn the rules & consequences of time from each other’s older self who then teaches the younger.
@alanbeaumont4848 I think it meant "I scream" I scream I scream. meaning that she was actually screaming at that point of her death. so she died screaming
These episodes are just devastating after watching River’s story in her order. I’ll leave it here if anyone wants to try it (I thoroughly recommend it): 1. A Good Man Goes to War 2. The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon 3. Let’s Kill Hitler 4. Closing Time 5. The Wedding of River Song 6. First Night/Last Night 7. First Night/Last Night (River from 5 years later) 8. A Good Man Goes to War (Frost Fair) 9. A Good Man Goes to War (Demon’s Run) 10. The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon 11. Bad Night/Good Night 12. The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang 13. The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone 14. The Wedding of River Song (meeting Amy) 15. Rain Gods 16. Last Night (failed trip to Darillium) 17. The Angels Take Manhattan 18. The Husbands of River Song 19. Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead 20. The Name of the Doctor
@@frde2190, in A Good Man Goes to War we have baby Melody, who is then taken to the orphanage in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon, she escapes the suit and regenerates in New York. Then she goes to Leadworth and grows up ready for Let’s Kill Hitler. I hope this helps 🙂
The Doctor: let me do this! River: if you die here it will mean I never met you. The Doctor: time can be rewritten... River: not those times. Not one line, don't you dare. It's okay, it's okay, it's not over for you. You'll see me again. You've got all of that to come. You and me. Time and space. You watch us run. No matter what my opinions are about River's character in future seasons of the show, that scene breaks me. Reduces me to sobs, every single time.
The fact that at the end of the 2nd part, Donna is looking for her Husband/Boyfriend, they leave and then we actually see him proving he was real and looking for her, THAT scene to me is the most sad scene in the entire 2 parter, you see just how close they were to being back together but JUST missed each other. Shows that you can be extremely close to something, nearly getting there but the smallest of mistakes can destroy it all but it also shows the opposite, that we know he was real meaning the love they had for each other was also real.
@@DanTheMan2150AD I was going to add in "unless they appeared in a later or earlier story I don't know about" but I figured I'd just leave it to the replies to let me know if that was the case. So, did they?
That’s why Moffat’s stories were so good. He has a talent for playing on a those basic human fears and extrapolating them into terrifying sci-fi concepts.
Oh my god how could u not mention the saddest part of the whole series, when the guy with the stutter can't call out Donna's name at the end before he is teleported away 😭😭😭
At the time I first watched that episode, I happened to be dating a man with a stutter so that scenario of being unable to call to his lover in time before she leaves forever... broke me.
One thing though that no one really talks about is that these people in the library have been missing for decades. Gotta feel for them, everything and everyone they knew is basically gone.
I always loved that idea, the doctor knowing his time is done and there’s nothing left for him do can finally let go and spend the rest of eternity with his wife and true love river song
@@DoctorTwo well when I said eternity I don’t just mean only in the computer cause even if they both fade they’d still be together in whatever is after cause doctor who is always so vague on afterlives lol
Another interesting way to analyze these episodes is as an allegory for dementia. Donna comforting Evangelista as her consciousness degrades, River experiencing the feeling of someone she loves not recognizing her, and Donna's confusion in the simulation.
And Donna's reaction and screams always make me cry, poor woman. If you think about it, the whole dream life is a paralell to her ending, because her mind being wiped out, it was like waking up from a dream that you instantly forget, and that version when she traveled with the Doctor, is forever lost. I know that's obvious, but it just occured to me now. (Sorry for my bad english)
Donna's end broke me heart in a way very few stories have. She evolved and became a truly good person. A total 180 from the runaway bride. Then to have it taken away and her return to her old personality broke something in me.
@@fortunate4260 agreed. At his best, he has written something phenomenal stuff, but over a series he can be a bit self indulgent. I think he's worse with Sherlock, that declined substantially over its episodes imo, but doctor who was more up and down
Silence in the library and forest of the dead is up on the number 1 podium with Human nature/Family of Blood for me. I always enjoy 2 parters more than single episodes and those 2 are just the unbeatable peak.
I think its because doctor who just works better with more time to tell the stories. These are such talented writers but theyre always forced to write full stories that fit neatly into a 45 minute section.
Absolutely, but the best episode I have ever seen in the show was a one parter, Blink. I love it because it manages to get everything across in one episode, and it just-works.
When you run with The Doctor, it feels like it will never end. But however hard you try, you can't run forever. Everybody knows that everybody dies, and nobody knows it like The Doctor. But I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark if he ever, for one moment, accepts it.
The Vashta Nerada are a very scary monster especially how quick they are and how you cant see them. Not every shadow is infected but any shadow could be and the fact the Doctor says to Donna that they are on most planets although very minor. The example he gives with someone walking down a alley way and never being seen again. These episodes have a very scary atmosphere and walking skeletons repeating their last thought very sinister. Alex Kingston is very good in these episodes not knowing (at least fully) what her character was going to be but play the role like its her last appearance with all the coming history already happening for River. It is quite heart-breaking and very good. Theres also one moment where Donna asks River where she is in the future and River looking like shes a ghost after knowing what will happen to Donna. Its something small but done well. River's ending speech to The Doctor really hits you hard once you have seen the episodes in the future series leading up to this one in series 4. Its the masterpiece of series 4 along with Midnight and honestly i dont think there is a better series of doctor who for me than series 4
I’ve always been torn between this and Human Nature/The family of blood as to which I’d rank in my No 1 spot for my favourite two parter?! No...they both belong on the top spot for me! 🙌🏻
the whole "slowly dying while in a dream state" thing reminds me of the bed crabs in that Christmas special with Santa claus. I mean the concept is quite similar, especially Donna's occasional fleeting realizations that none of this is real, but refusing to accept that it isn't. it was the same with Clara in that episode, she didn't want to leave Danny and face reality.
It’s especially chilling if you’ve been in a coma...which I have been and was on the day that the face crabs episode aired. I only realised the weird coincidence when I got round to watching S9 a while later once I got better.
This two parter is gold. Everything is on point. Emotion, acting, writing, pacing, even the moments of humour. all of it in the pocket. the only thing that tops it is the next story Midnight which is diamond let alone gold (unintentional pun i know) Urgh series 4 is so good.
I loved this two parter. Easily my favourite episode from series 4 and the show. The acting was fantastic, and there was never a time where I felt turned off by the cheesiness and plot inconsistencies unlike the other Doctor Who episodes I’ve watched (even the other good ones).
"The strongest human emotion is fear, the oldest the oldest type of fear is the fear of the unknown." You never truly know what's hiding in the shadows, just out of sight.
Moffat and RTD have this really nice compliment to each other's writings. They take different approaches and have tendencies that can go overboard alone but paired together make much better stories. Like Moffat's whole refusal of letting fan favorite characters die goes really well with RTD forcing the Doctor as a tortured soul. Alone both can get to be too much. But "just this once EVERYONE lives" and rivers ending here are so good because we're otherwise watching a tortured doctor unable to do anything to save the people around him despite being treated like an all powerful god at times. Small victories sometimes feel much larger the less frequent we get them.
4:57 also in Survival when ace says You had to pick a Sunday, didn't you? You bring me back to the boredom capitol of the universe, you pick the one day of the week you can't even get a decent television programme.
One thing this episode also made me appreciate of Moffat's writing over Chib's is that almost all of these moments of narrative groundwork (for its own episode or for when he takes over later as showrunner) come so smoothly. Sometimes Chibs will nail a narrative detail in one of his stories, but every time he does, it feels less like a character/story moment, and more like a writer conjuring a moment with a giant neon sign with the words "THIS IS IMPORTANT - REMEMBER THIS!!" hanging over it. Like, he would have a scene out of nowhere where The Doctor and the Fam will suddenly dedicate two full minutes toward talking about their love of cheese and agreeing to buy a ton (tonne?) of it "for later", only for it to be because the invincible villain's one weakness is a deathly allergy toward cheese.
For me this is the two part episode that no matter times you watch it, it always feels like you are watching it for the first time. It's my favourite two part episode.
This is one of my favourite episodes of modern Doctor Who ever. The introduction of River Song, the premise, the monster, the music, the set design and the direction is fantastically done.
As a parent, the absolute anguish and terror Donna experienced when the children disappeared was heart-wrenching. Catherine Tate did an amazing job communicating this to the audience.
I love the section where Donna has a fake life in the simulation because as a TV watcher you're used to shows cutting shots and assuming time has passed between scenes...only for Donna to point out that she suddenly got somewhere else and doesn't remember the journey. I'm in the same boat of not liking what Moffat did to River Song later on. Companion/Doctor romances never appealed to me 'cos they always had this weird power dynamic. So I absolutely loved the idea that River had her own adventures all the time and could engage the Doctor like an equal without her whole life revolving around the Doctor being so much bigger than her. Needless to say, later episodes ruined that by having River's entire life literally be all about the Doctor and having her tell Amy that they should lie and suffer in silence just to protect the Doctor's feelings.
Technically River couldn't have been talking about the Vashta Nerada when she talks about "whole armies turning and running away" because she says it before that happens in the episode. She's talking about the events of "A Good Man Goes to War" or "The Pandorica Opens."
I absolutely loved River Songs reaction/realization to who Donna Knoble really was, it totally set the scene to who Donna was supposed to become, like Alex knew before hand how important Katherine Tate’s character actually was
You do realize that the twist of Soma was that there never was a '50/50' shot, you start off in one body you stay in that body and then a copy is made, you don't continue on as the copy, you never continue on as the copy, the copy is a different iteration of the same consciousness.
While I will agree that Moffat’s writing does suffer from some overused tropes, I think this episode highlights what he’s best at: sci-fi concepts. I’ve heard some people say that his concepts are sometimes “half baked” or “under explained” but I don’t agree with that. Like some of the best sci-fi, he doesn’t (always) try to beat you over the head with the concept but allows you to think about it and form your own conclusions. And then there are times where he does beat you over the head with it (I can forgive a lot of series 7’s writing as he was spread a little thin with Sherlock, DW series 7 and The Day of the Doctor all happening around the same time) still, he does better than certain classic episodes (fight me) where the sci fi concepts are usually over explained to the point of boredom. Doctor Who is at its best when the sci fi concepts are at the perfect balance between explanation and imagination. Just enough is explained to get the gist of it, but enough is left to your imagination to make it feel truly real and awesome. This is why I think Neil Gaiman’s episodes were so good (yes I liked Nightmare in Silver. Again, fight me) because he excels at creating that balance. Silence in the Library is Moffat’s masterpiece because it’s probably the best example of the concept ticking all the boxes for not only great Doctor Who but great sci-fi writing. Thank you, this has been my TED talk.
I think the issue here is that Moffat and Chibnall are on opposite ends of a spectrum. Moffat is this cross between Joss Whedon/Christoper Nolan who is just bursting with a very distinct creativity. Not only do you just KNOW when it is a Moffat script, a lot of people just want to casually watch some light fun family entertainment. But what entertains Moffat is episodes like Heaven Sent or Listen, and with Moffat as show runner, this style is no longer an occasional treat, but definitive of the overall shows overall direction. Davies had some ridiculous go-for-broke concepts, but he didn't give a damn about over arching plots, so everyone forgot his dumber stuff and remembering is strong stuff, while a handful of episodes in Series 6 became a stain on Moffat's reputation to this day because his style invites more scrutiny even if he's operating on the same level of absurd comic book nonsense as Davies. Chibnall on the other hand, just doesn't have a creative bone in his body. You immediately go from the time distortion/cyberman war in Series 10 ... to a guy with teeth in his face kidnapping a random dude ... for ... Idk reasons in Series 11. He's so fundamentally boring and simple as a writer that he shifted the conversation about the show much further than it ever had been before into how it addressed political issues, even though the Davies/Moffat eras had similar politics, they just wrote better stories to go along with whatever message they had
I will always argue that 12 was “river’s Doctor” considering her full dialogue in HoRS/ SitL&FotD more than 11. Also the botched upload reveal still makes me uncomfortable as hell
Remember, a single night on Derilium is 24 years. Even though as an audience, we've experienced more adventures between the 11th Doctor and River than anyone else. River likely spent more consecutive time being a regular married couple with the 12th Doctor than she ever did with the 11th
@@TheJadedJames and when they went to Darillium they were both at the same point in their relationship- deeply in love with each other and the Doctor not questioning who River is, knowing that he gets to spend 24 years of well deserved bliss with his wife
I was terrified of this as a child bc I had a wicked combo of fears, the weeping angels and the dark. Looking back, it ain’t that scary anymore but my god they scarred me for 6 years
Such clever writing, and the way Moffat managed to work out stories that would interlink in the future. C Tate is superb in this story, funny, sad, angry amazing.
It’s not as hard as it seems to be honest. The only things he has at this point are: - the doctor must eventually fall in love with this woman - I’ll have to name a ship the Byzantium at some point - eventually I’ll show them at darillium (an episode that didn’t quite match how River explains it to ten) - the doctor will tell her his name (something we never actually saw) So he just writes the story backwards. He’s merely putting pieces on a board that he’ll eventually write into episodes later rather than having all of it planned out beforehand,
27:00 SOMA is very explicit that it is NOT a 50/50 shot for who comes out the other end. The game makes it very clear that the you that dies is always you. When you walk into a teleporter you don’t flip a coin on your consciousness being sent to the next place or not, the You that entered always dies and a duplicates comes out the other side. By SOMA logic the Donna that we see after this episode is a new being while the Donna before this episode is permanently dead Although the logic in Doctor Who may be different if there is an in universe canonical soul that follows a single digital and/or physical being, thus conferring realness and originality on to that duplicate.
Been scrolling looking for this, Cathrine really hammers it in at the end. Makes me think about how we’re just meat computers with our consciousness as ‘software.’ Soma was such a good experience 🙏
I think the way the doctor stops the vashta nerada is perfect. Even when he has no way of stopping the enemy, just his history, experience and amount he’s killed is enough to give him a day to save everyone and stop the vashta nerada. Also I gotta say Alex Kingston does a great job at showing river song having a history with the doctor. If you watch river song from start to finish(from the perspective of river though(so you’d start with the episode she’s born then let’s kill evil dictator)) there isn’t a weird disconnect where she seems less developed from the last time you see her
what was interesting to learn about this episode during the Doctor Who lockdown event was that Dr. Moon was intended to be the Doctors final incarnation and 45th life.
Evangelista always break my heart, Donna being nice to her was simple but so cute, most of the companions are trying to be clever, and impress their beloved Doctor... and really not caring for other people to be honest, but Donna no. She won't care about this being or act like The Doctor shit, like Clara, Yaz, Rose etc, Donna was her, in her best and seeing now, she was probably the companion that came most close to be The Doctor on the New Who (and well literally she became) but even without the Meta Crises, she was clever, she would care for the others around them, she scream in anger and sadness to the Doctor for him to save at least one person, in Fires Of Pompeii. I just love this woman, one of the best companions hands down.
Only just noticed the similarities between the vashta narada spacesuits and those used by the aliens in ambassadors of death when I saw that thumbnail.
I also want it point out the missed but brilliant moment when the Doctor and Donna are asked to sign the contract, and they just look at each other and in perfect sync tear them up in the exact same manner and toss them away
I remember when I first saw Donna's screaming breakdown after her children disappeared...it broke my heart, even as a preteen, and it only hurts more now that I'm a parent myself. I don't think I've ever really seen a performer reach the levels of grief that Tate portrayed during her time as Donna.
Omg that makes so much sense!! And coz when we saw everything Clara did for the Doctor in that episode we saw the 10th in the library!! Why didn’t they add that, that’s such a good ideaaaa
this is one of my favourites. only waters of mars beat this one back when it came out. there have been so many good stories the top 5-10 are all fantastic that i cant rank them properly. this one is up there tho.
When we first watched this episode, it was a spooky thriller about shadows eating people, with an interesting character from the Doctor's future adding fuel to the mystery and suspense. Watching it back now after the end of the 12th doctor's run, it's an absolutely heartbreaking conclusion to a years long arc which started with him crashing in a Scottish girl's back yard, and peaked with him getting married at the end of time and space itself. River isn't just a companion, she is his wife, and even in this _first ever appearance_ you can tell she loves him. Of course with 10 this is a bit unfortunate because, well she's not exactly the first girl to fall for David Tennant's face, but in that one scene where she says "please tell me you know who I am" and he responds with "who are you?" ... _chef's kiss_ peak performances from both actors here. David's face perfectly conveys the confusion 10 must be feeling, but Alex really steals it with just the way her face sinks. Even without context you could tell this is a crushing blow. And her love for him is visibly different from Rose or Martha, it's not just an infatuation or a crush, it's clearly deeper, she fully expects him to at least partially reciprocate the energy. With context, you honestly feel the blow with her, he's known her for her whole life, she's known him most of his... again, she's not just another girl he picked up, she's his wife, and the daughter of his best friend. And he has absolutely no idea who she is. It's tragic in a way only Doctor Who could be. While Moffat gets a lot of flak for his cheap writing tricks, and a lot of it is well-earned, I think the whole story of Amy and Rory, and how that resulted in River, and the way that whole era kind of ends right here before it even began... I think it's actually a pretty brilliant use of time travel to subvert romance plots in an interesting and shockingly cohesive way on rewatch. And god damn does it make so much of the Moffat era bittersweet on said rewatches. Starting right here with that first, last episode.
The library episodes are awesome. It's epic. Seeing it again is as amazing as the later episodes, and river song is treated in that episode as great as she should be.
I think that River's death hits harder on rewatch after seeing her different adventures and that some scenes from those future episodes playing in your head as she talks about them
Jack was Davies’s character tho, Moffat just got to write him. I cant really see Moffat creating a flirtatious gay male character who’s explicitly gay, on his own accord as a straight writer back in 2004. There was definitely RTD influence in that two parter
I love the moffat era of Doctor who (RTD era is still perfect). However this episode compare to his later seasons, shows that he can make some of the best individual episode in all of doctor who however he isnt the best when he comes to stories to last an entire season, killing everyone off, bring them back an episode later, the length he keeps some of his companions and poor execution of season finales. The first 10 seasons of DW will always be my all-time favourite shows with its ups and downs. I'll take moffat's range of S tier episodes to D tier episodes then, Chibnall range of D tier episodes to F tier episodes, any day of the week.
These two episodes were the first that I ever heard of Doctor Who, that I remembered before watching the show. My siblings watched it, and I could only hear the repetitive line "Hey, who turned out the lights?", and could only wonder at the horror that was happening in the show. And after watching these episodes and 11's era, these two are in my top favorites of the entire show.
ahh, one of the first instances of the doctor winning by saying "google me" while also being a nice setup for the other big databases full of dead people that moffat would go on to write. (to be clear this two parter is phenomenal and I love it a lot but WOW did moffat reuse a lot of tropes from it)
Yeah, the Doctor is the timeless child and can regenerate as much as s/he wants - but, and people tend to forget it, when they bring stuff like Rivers sacrifice up, the Doctor doesn't know this. No one knows this until the master found it out in "the timeless children". So I have no problem with that being brought up as a big stake-moment, since - and that is something people tend to forget, too - each doctor dies. Every doctor is a very individual personality. We have grumpy gramps, the space hobo, Mr. Venutian Aikido, Hair-and-Teeth, the boring one, the McKay-before-McKay-was-a-thing, the chessmaster, the "Who-am-I", the Wardoctor, the forgotten, the man, who regrets, the man who forgets, the Severus-Snape-version and the "fam"-Doctor. When Jodie Whittaker gives up her sonic screwdriver and is then regenerating in someone new, that version of the Doctor is gone. She'll only return in books, comics, audioplays and the possible crossover, but the new doctor will never have the same personality-traits as their previous incarnations. Therefore: even if the Doctor can regenerate as many times as the doctor damn well pleases, it'll not be a fun situation, as could be seen in "The curse of the fatal death" or "Destiny of the Daleks", when Romana apparently was just bored with her old body and wanted to try out something new. TBH - it would not surprise me, if the "timeless child" would later revealed to be either not the doctor - or not the only child, who could do this. The true timeless child - or the other timeless child - who could pull of that, would be Romana, explaining her carefree attitude to regenerating (and basically killing some of her own versions).
Gaah, can't even start with this two-parter I come back to this one at least once a year, just to remember what I consider part of the peak of the revival's worldbuilding and charm The mystery of River made me biased towards the character up until series 6 (novelty wore off after a while) The iconic Vashta Nerada making 7-year-old me avoid pretty much any shadow at night (I did have a toy sonic that I used to light the way tho) aaagh, pretty much the only thing that doesn't sit well on it's own is how corrupted-upload miss evangelista looks right out of a youtube poop, but honestly it's just part of the 2008-y-ness and I can enjoy it for what it is I truly wish the best for the show, I know it probably wont get better until someone else is running the it, but if something even came close to how great some of this later series 4 stuff is, i'd be more than happy
I know this is unrelated but I love how big finish is basically just loads of stories of the doctor who universe that have the possibility of being canon and gives answers and stuff to things within the show that the show runner can then put into the DW canon, and I LOVE IT!
I saw a bit of one of the library episodes on tv one day and it looked fun. But I didn't recognise it as Doctor Who, it wasn't well known in the Netherlands at the time. But years later, in my twenties I became a proper fan of the show and the Silence in the Library two parter is still one of my favourites.
Alex Kingston's performances are the only reason I like River Song. Steven Moffat's my favourite writer but I'm not blind to the fact that he made River a Mary Sue. Despite that, Kingston's charisma and passion make River fun to watch and she manages to bring heart to a character who, on paper, could very easily have been unbearable.
28:04 yah know, looking back, I'm wondering if she was talking about the "Stonehenge incident", or, as the specific wording suggests, "colonel runaway". (Or, perhaps both? I know she was there at demons run, but was she at pandorica?)
Make the Timeless Child a separate character, and have it's memories in the Doctor like some sort of biological Matrix. Basically the Doctor has had the Timeless Child's memories inside her head ever since the 1st Doctor. And make Jo Martin's Doctor the 14th Doctor.
I don't think it was pointed out but at 5:29 you can see someone's shadow in the background. Clearly not belonging to either of the two in the shot. It might just be some stone bust but it's still terrifying when you notice it on rewatches
It was quite a nice segue from the ending of the previous episode being about Agatha Christie's books living on forever, to the next time we see the Doctor and Donna they're talking about books.
![DID IT SUCK? | Doctor Who [SILENCE IN THE LIBRARY / FOREST OF THE DEAD MEGA REVIEW]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/C9TRz1cT5O8/mqdefault.jpg)
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Can’t wait till they finally go under
What?! That’s ridiculous!! They should be hiring you not claiming you!!!
Everyone that created this CrAP needs to burn in hell. Dr Who is VOMIT that gives SF a bad name. DEATH to Dr. Who and all the shitty fans. Dr. Who is why kids get beat up in school, instead of being respected. Dr. Who is STEAMING GARBAGE, it is not not not not SF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dr Who is VOMIT that gives SF a bad name. Dr Who is VOMIT that gives SF a bad name. Dr Who is VOMIT that gives SF a bad name. Dr Who is VOMIT that gives SF a bad name. CARDBOARD scripts written by loser morons FOR loser morons.
@@noneone8726 Chill out, and let people like what they like. You don't like doctor who, cool. I like doctor who, cool. But being so toxic about what other people like, just because you yourself don't like it makes you a toxic peace of shit. Let people like what they want. Now go back to your basement.
It was a crime that you did not highlight the best part of this two-parter: The fact that Donna's dream man is a guy with a stutter so she can talk as much as she wants without interruption, and the *utter tragedy* this results in when that guy comes back to life at the end of the episode and Donna JUST misses him *because he can't call out her name in time.* Like GOD, that ending stuck with me for a LONG time after I first saw it...
That was such a sad scene...
@@waaaaaaah5135 But the problem I found is that he recovered somewhat so it would've gotten better
i think about that ending to this day too!!
I remember a joke in a podcast where they said if you could give someone a dream would you be able to give them one that gives them the perfect training to do a kickflip once they wake up, which makes sense so wouldn't he be able to speak better just from muscle memory?
@@drneotech7254 He never learned to speak better though (I don't think), he just lived with his stutter and Donna loved him for it rather than despite of it. (and even if he did improve some, high stress still worsens stutters and he was certainly highly stressed.)
You forgot one of my favorite moments from this episode:
“How are you holding up?”
“I’m okay.”
“Is ‘okay’ super secret Time Lord speak for ‘not really okay at all’?”
…
“Because I’m okay too.”
Not only is this moment so human by coping with grief by making a bit of a joke, but it shows how much Donna is becoming like The Doctor. Enough like him to know how he’s feeling and to hide her feelings the same way he does. For shadowing the meta crisis even further.
It's a shame they didn't use the same verbage at the end of Journey's End when Donna is pretending to be fine when The Doctor knows she can't cope with the Metacrisis. Would've have been a great callback
Thanks Harbo.
I’m now crying in my bathroom
👍
♡
I just realised Donna's dream arc did Wandavision years before Wandavision was made.
Honestly that exact thought went though my head hahah 😂
Not really because Wandavision is loosely based off of the House of M story arc in the comics which came out in 2005 before this season of Doctor who. So Marvel still did the whole made up dream stuff first.
@@emersonharrop5775 i know wandavis is based on house of m, i was just saying that the show and this episode are surprisingly similar feeling
@@emersonharrop5775 yeah but its so loose that the only things it has in common is reality bending, scarlet witch and her being really sad due to deaths
Its about as close to House of M as Ned is to Harry Osborne
The comic didn't do the dream/reality is like a TV show stuff at all
@@conradlorgar5508 The House of M did do the dream reality thing, Wanda gave everyone their dream lives like Spider man still had Uncle Ben and Gwen whilst his identity being public and his family was safe or Wolverine being the director of SHIELD, Captain America never went into the jce and got to loke out his life etc. It may nit have done it like a TV show but it still did the dream reality which was my original point.
I think one of the saddest things in this episode is when Donna is speaking to her kids before they disappear they say “when you blink it’s like we don’t exist” and she says “I promise to never blink again” then it cuts to the next shot and you actually see her blink and then her kids are gone
Alex Kingston absolutely killed it in this two-parter, especially for only an introduction.
Her mixture of grief, love, and understanding were heart-wrenching.
Omg how can u not mentions the parallels when the 10th doctor says “Time can be rewritten” then she says “don’t u dare” then how her younger self in 11th says “Time can be rewritten” then the doctors older self is the one saying “don’t u dare”. They learn the rules & consequences of time from each other’s older self who then teaches the younger.
That’s brilliant, thanks for pointing it out, I never noticed! Good luck getting that kind of mature and connected writing nowadays in doctor who🙄
They were quoting one another.
Another bootstrap paradox!
Also the "Not one line" line dates back all the way to The Aztecs lol
"Don't tell the others, They'll only laugh-"
TEARS EVERYTIME!! 😭😭
For me it's: "I....I....I.......ICECREAM ICECREAM icecream icecream....."
I like that You can see the guilt and disgust in Dave’s face when she says that as if they regret treating her like they did
@alanbeaumont4848 I think it meant "I scream" I scream I scream. meaning that she was actually screaming at that point of her death. so she died screaming
That image of the woman's distorted face terrified me when I was younger. I still find it quite scary now.
Weak sauce Blobby smh.
I was 5 when it first came out and honestly, I shat myself.
Uncanniest of all valleys
When it first aired, I had to stop watching when that happened. Watched the rest of it the next day with my eyes closed at that bit.
It was the “hey who turned out the lights” for me, as a child when it first aired I still get chills when I hear it
These episodes are just devastating after watching River’s story in her order. I’ll leave it here if anyone wants to try it (I thoroughly recommend it):
1. A Good Man Goes to War
2. The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon
3. Let’s Kill Hitler
4. Closing Time
5. The Wedding of River Song
6. First Night/Last Night
7. First Night/Last Night (River from 5 years later)
8. A Good Man Goes to War (Frost Fair)
9. A Good Man Goes to War (Demon’s Run)
10. The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon
11. Bad Night/Good Night
12. The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang
13. The Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone
14. The Wedding of River Song (meeting Amy)
15. Rain Gods
16. Last Night (failed trip to Darillium)
17. The Angels Take Manhattan
18. The Husbands of River Song
19. Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead
20. The Name of the Doctor
Nice idea for a rewatch
Hey I’m confused, shouldn’t Let’s kill Hitler be the second one?
@@frde2190, in A Good Man Goes to War we have baby Melody, who is then taken to the orphanage in The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon, she escapes the suit and regenerates in New York. Then she goes to Leadworth and grows up ready for Let’s Kill Hitler. I hope this helps 🙂
@@nocturne8333 oh okay thanks, I got a bit confused there
@@frde2190, no worries, River’s timeline is definitely wibbly wobbly! Glad I could help
The Doctor: let me do this!
River: if you die here it will mean I never met you.
The Doctor: time can be rewritten...
River: not those times. Not one line, don't you dare. It's okay, it's okay, it's not over for you. You'll see me again. You've got all of that to come. You and me. Time and space. You watch us run.
No matter what my opinions are about River's character in future seasons of the show, that scene breaks me. Reduces me to sobs, every single time.
Just reading that brought a tear to my eye.
That connection between “Sunday’s are boring” and the Chibnall era episodes airing on Sunday is gold!
what a lovely coincidence, almost foreshadowing lol 😂
Moffat's episodes were boring.
@@ysthafellgynghori8423 No & nor were Chibnall's. This fandom needs to accept different opinions exist.
The fact that at the end of the 2nd part, Donna is looking for her Husband/Boyfriend, they leave and then we actually see him proving he was real and looking for her, THAT scene to me is the most sad scene in the entire 2 parter, you see just how close they were to being back together but JUST missed each other.
Shows that you can be extremely close to something, nearly getting there but the smallest of mistakes can destroy it all but it also shows the opposite, that we know he was real meaning the love they had for each other was also real.
I guess you could also equate it to The Doctor and Donna themselves, since most of Partners in Crime was them narrowly missing each other
He’ll be haunted forever by his stammer
The Vashta Nerada were easily one of the most hardcore, one-off story enemies in the New Who era. 💀👨🚀
Hahaha. One-off...
@@DanTheMan2150AD I was going to add in "unless they appeared in a later or earlier story I don't know about" but I figured I'd just leave it to the replies to let me know if that was the case. So, did they?
@@DJtheBlack-RibbonedRose Big Finish.
@@DanTheMan2150AD Sorry, Idk what you mean by that.
@@DJtheBlack-RibbonedRose Big Finish make most of the books and audio books in the doctor who universe
You know it's a good episode when they make "hey who turned out the light" a phrase that gives you goosebumps
Primal fears are usually the most terrifying and relatable. its so good.
That’s why Moffat’s stories were so good. He has a talent for playing on a those basic human fears and extrapolating them into terrifying sci-fi concepts.
Oh my god how could u not mention the saddest part of the whole series, when the guy with the stutter can't call out Donna's name at the end before he is teleported away 😭😭😭
That broke me 😭
Me too. That was so sad on rewatch.
At the time I first watched that episode, I happened to be dating a man with a stutter so that scenario of being unable to call to his lover in time before she leaves forever... broke me.
Yeah that's always stuck with me, poor lad
What i don't understand tho is when he saw Donna, why did he not just jump off the teleporter and race after her?
One thing though that no one really talks about is that these people in the library have been missing for decades. Gotta feel for them, everything and everyone they knew is basically gone.
Fun fact: Moffat considered Doctor Moon to be one of the doctors incarnations (maybe the final one) when writing this story.
Moffat has a weird sense of humour.
I always loved that idea, the doctor knowing his time is done and there’s nothing left for him do can finally let go and spend the rest of eternity with his wife and true love river song
@@DoctorTwo well when I said eternity I don’t just mean only in the computer cause even if they both fade they’d still be together in whatever is after cause doctor who is always so vague on afterlives lol
its ok they are infinite Doctors now after that abomination the timeless child
@@purefoldnz3070 shh! We don’t talk about the vile mass hallucination that didn’t really happen.
Another interesting way to analyze these episodes is as an allegory for dementia. Donna comforting Evangelista as her consciousness degrades, River experiencing the feeling of someone she loves not recognizing her, and Donna's confusion in the simulation.
That moment when Donna's children turn into pillows gives me the goosebumps of horror every time.
And Donna's reaction and screams always make me cry, poor woman. If you think about it, the whole dream life is a paralell to her ending, because her mind being wiped out, it was like waking up from a dream that you instantly forget, and that version when she traveled with the Doctor, is forever lost. I know that's obvious, but it just occured to me now. (Sorry for my bad english)
Donna's end broke me heart in a way very few stories have. She evolved and became a truly good person. A total 180 from the runaway bride. Then to have it taken away and her return to her old personality broke something in me.
I love how this is rated as the 3rd best Dr. Who story on IMDB.
Edit: Evangelina's face reveal gave me nightmares for WEEKS.
What’s rated above it?
@@steampunkfox4932 blink in first and heaven sent in second
@@johannvongenerico9487 funny how a lot of people rag on Moffat when he wrote all 3 of the highest rated stories
@@fortunate4260 agreed. At his best, he has written something phenomenal stuff, but over a series he can be a bit self indulgent. I think he's worse with Sherlock, that declined substantially over its episodes imo, but doctor who was more up and down
Still does with me. Ive gotten used to the jump scares of the weeping angels over time but that body horror I cannot keep my eyes on
Silence in the library and forest of the dead is up on the number 1 podium with Human nature/Family of Blood for me. I always enjoy 2 parters more than single episodes and those 2 are just the unbeatable peak.
I think its because doctor who just works better with more time to tell the stories. These are such talented writers but theyre always forced to write full stories that fit neatly into a 45 minute section.
Absolutely, but the best episode I have ever seen in the show was a one parter, Blink. I love it because it manages to get everything across in one episode, and it just-works.
When you run with The Doctor, it feels like it will never end. But however hard you try, you can't run forever. Everybody knows that everybody dies, and nobody knows it like The Doctor.
But I do think that all the skies of all the worlds might just turn dark if he ever, for one moment, accepts it.
The Vashta Nerada are a very scary monster especially how quick they are and how you cant see them. Not every shadow is infected but any shadow could be and the fact the Doctor says to Donna that they are on most planets although very minor. The example he gives with someone walking down a alley way and never being seen again. These episodes have a very scary atmosphere and walking skeletons repeating their last thought very sinister.
Alex Kingston is very good in these episodes not knowing (at least fully) what her character was going to be but play the role like its her last appearance with all the coming history already happening for River. It is quite heart-breaking and very good. Theres also one moment where Donna asks River where she is in the future and River looking like shes a ghost after knowing what will happen to Donna. Its something small but done well.
River's ending speech to The Doctor really hits you hard once you have seen the episodes in the future series leading up to this one in series 4. Its the masterpiece of series 4 along with Midnight and honestly i dont think there is a better series of doctor who for me than series 4
I’ve always been torn between this and Human Nature/The family of blood as to which I’d rank in my No 1 spot for my favourite two parter?! No...they both belong on the top spot for me! 🙌🏻
Same. They are both just so good
the whole "slowly dying while in a dream state" thing reminds me of the bed crabs in that Christmas special with Santa claus. I mean the concept is quite similar, especially Donna's occasional fleeting realizations that none of this is real, but refusing to accept that it isn't. it was the same with Clara in that episode, she didn't want to leave Danny and face reality.
It’s especially chilling if you’ve been in a coma...which I have been and was on the day that the face crabs episode aired. I only realised the weird coincidence when I got round to watching S9 a while later once I got better.
This two parter is gold. Everything is on point. Emotion, acting, writing, pacing, even the moments of humour. all of it in the pocket. the only thing that tops it is the next story Midnight which is diamond let alone gold (unintentional pun i know) Urgh series 4 is so good.
Yeah, y'know a season is good when all the episodes all enjoyable in some way even if they don't make your personal favorites list. 😊
I loved this two parter. Easily my favourite episode from series 4 and the show. The acting was fantastic, and there was never a time where I felt turned off by the cheesiness and plot inconsistencies unlike the other Doctor Who episodes I’ve watched (even the other good ones).
"The strongest human emotion is fear, the oldest the oldest type of fear is the fear of the unknown."
You never truly know what's hiding in the shadows, just out of sight.
Moffat stories under RTD show running are absolute peak Who, everything they did together was a banger.
Moffat and RTD have this really nice compliment to each other's writings. They take different approaches and have tendencies that can go overboard alone but paired together make much better stories. Like Moffat's whole refusal of letting fan favorite characters die goes really well with RTD forcing the Doctor as a tortured soul. Alone both can get to be too much. But "just this once EVERYONE lives" and rivers ending here are so good because we're otherwise watching a tortured doctor unable to do anything to save the people around him despite being treated like an all powerful god at times. Small victories sometimes feel much larger the less frequent we get them.
4:57 also in Survival when ace says
You had to pick a Sunday, didn't you? You bring me back to the boredom capitol of the universe, you pick the one day of the week you can't even get a decent television programme.
One thing this episode also made me appreciate of Moffat's writing over Chib's is that almost all of these moments of narrative groundwork (for its own episode or for when he takes over later as showrunner) come so smoothly. Sometimes Chibs will nail a narrative detail in one of his stories, but every time he does, it feels less like a character/story moment, and more like a writer conjuring a moment with a giant neon sign with the words "THIS IS IMPORTANT - REMEMBER THIS!!" hanging over it. Like, he would have a scene out of nowhere where The Doctor and the Fam will suddenly dedicate two full minutes toward talking about their love of cheese and agreeing to buy a ton (tonne?) of it "for later", only for it to be because the invincible villain's one weakness is a deathly allergy toward cheese.
For me this is the two part episode that no matter times you watch it, it always feels like you are watching it for the first time. It's my favourite two part episode.
This is one of my favourite episodes of modern Doctor Who ever. The introduction of River Song, the premise, the monster, the music, the set design and the direction is fantastically done.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say I know which rank this ends up in.
As a parent, the absolute anguish and terror Donna experienced when the children disappeared was heart-wrenching. Catherine Tate did an amazing job communicating this to the audience.
That was the moment that solidified Cathrine as not just a comedic actress to me.
Don't play games with me gives me chills that scene is amazing the fact that the Vashta Narda literally go the other way when he's says "look me up"
Something else about Tennant's "Look me up" speech - it's an early flash of his Time Lord Victorious phase in Waters of Mars.
'and then, you forgot'
damn the foreshadow
River Song is so perfect. Brilliant casting, brilliant script, and a brilliant arc. It needed all 3 and it had it in spades.
I love the section where Donna has a fake life in the simulation because as a TV watcher you're used to shows cutting shots and assuming time has passed between scenes...only for Donna to point out that she suddenly got somewhere else and doesn't remember the journey.
I'm in the same boat of not liking what Moffat did to River Song later on. Companion/Doctor romances never appealed to me 'cos they always had this weird power dynamic. So I absolutely loved the idea that River had her own adventures all the time and could engage the Doctor like an equal without her whole life revolving around the Doctor being so much bigger than her.
Needless to say, later episodes ruined that by having River's entire life literally be all about the Doctor and having her tell Amy that they should lie and suffer in silence just to protect the Doctor's feelings.
Technically River couldn't have been talking about the Vashta Nerada when she talks about "whole armies turning and running away" because she says it before that happens in the episode. She's talking about the events of "A Good Man Goes to War" or "The Pandorica Opens."
Donna's world is like wandavision
I absolutely loved River Songs reaction/realization to who Donna Knoble really was, it totally set the scene to who Donna was supposed to become, like Alex knew before hand how important Katherine Tate’s character actually was
It's Noble, not Knoble
You do realize that the twist of Soma was that there never was a '50/50' shot, you start off in one body you stay in that body and then a copy is made, you don't continue on as the copy, you never continue on as the copy, the copy is a different iteration of the same consciousness.
Hey, who turned up the quality?
Oh, it was Moffat. That makes sense.
Hey, who keeps flicking the lights on and off? Where are you Moffat?
I miss Moffat
@@ShadowKamehameha32 me too, i wonder what stories he would have written for jodie, even if he just came back for an one off episode
*"I'm the Doctor, and you're in the biggest library in the Universe. Look me up."* 🤩🤩🤩
These are my favourite doctor who episode ever. Absolute classics. The amount of times I would look for second shadows when I was younger lol
While I will agree that Moffat’s writing does suffer from some overused tropes, I think this episode highlights what he’s best at: sci-fi concepts. I’ve heard some people say that his concepts are sometimes “half baked” or “under explained” but I don’t agree with that. Like some of the best sci-fi, he doesn’t (always) try to beat you over the head with the concept but allows you to think about it and form your own conclusions. And then there are times where he does beat you over the head with it (I can forgive a lot of series 7’s writing as he was spread a little thin with Sherlock, DW series 7 and The Day of the Doctor all happening around the same time) still, he does better than certain classic episodes (fight me) where the sci fi concepts are usually over explained to the point of boredom. Doctor Who is at its best when the sci fi concepts are at the perfect balance between explanation and imagination. Just enough is explained to get the gist of it, but enough is left to your imagination to make it feel truly real and awesome. This is why I think Neil Gaiman’s episodes were so good (yes I liked Nightmare in Silver. Again, fight me) because he excels at creating that balance. Silence in the Library is Moffat’s masterpiece because it’s probably the best example of the concept ticking all the boxes for not only great Doctor Who but great sci-fi writing. Thank you, this has been my TED talk.
It was a great Ted talk, thank you
I think the issue here is that Moffat and Chibnall are on opposite ends of a spectrum. Moffat is this cross between Joss Whedon/Christoper Nolan who is just bursting with a very distinct creativity. Not only do you just KNOW when it is a Moffat script, a lot of people just want to casually watch some light fun family entertainment. But what entertains Moffat is episodes like Heaven Sent or Listen, and with Moffat as show runner, this style is no longer an occasional treat, but definitive of the overall shows overall direction. Davies had some ridiculous go-for-broke concepts, but he didn't give a damn about over arching plots, so everyone forgot his dumber stuff and remembering is strong stuff, while a handful of episodes in Series 6 became a stain on Moffat's reputation to this day because his style invites more scrutiny even if he's operating on the same level of absurd comic book nonsense as Davies. Chibnall on the other hand, just doesn't have a creative bone in his body. You immediately go from the time distortion/cyberman war in Series 10 ... to a guy with teeth in his face kidnapping a random dude ... for ... Idk reasons in Series 11. He's so fundamentally boring and simple as a writer that he shifted the conversation about the show much further than it ever had been before into how it addressed political issues, even though the Davies/Moffat eras had similar politics, they just wrote better stories to go along with whatever message they had
I will always argue that 12 was “river’s Doctor” considering her full dialogue in HoRS/ SitL&FotD more than 11.
Also the botched upload reveal still makes me uncomfortable as hell
Remember, a single night on Derilium is 24 years. Even though as an audience, we've experienced more adventures between the 11th Doctor and River than anyone else. River likely spent more consecutive time being a regular married couple with the 12th Doctor than she ever did with the 11th
@@TheJadedJames and when they went to Darillium they were both at the same point in their relationship- deeply in love with each other and the Doctor not questioning who River is, knowing that he gets to spend 24 years of well deserved bliss with his wife
I was terrified of this as a child bc I had a wicked combo of fears, the weeping angels and the dark.
Looking back, it ain’t that scary anymore but my god they scarred me for 6 years
Nope the angles still get me, omg the fear I had when this same out being about 7 was not a good age to experience the angles at there prime scaryness
the vashta nerada scared me as a child and if they came up to me now i still might
Such clever writing, and the way Moffat managed to work out stories that would interlink in the future. C Tate is superb in this story, funny, sad, angry amazing.
It’s not as hard as it seems to be honest. The only things he has at this point are:
- the doctor must eventually fall in love with this woman
- I’ll have to name a ship the Byzantium at some point
- eventually I’ll show them at darillium (an episode that didn’t quite match how River explains it to ten)
- the doctor will tell her his name (something we never actually saw)
So he just writes the story backwards. He’s merely putting pieces on a board that he’ll eventually write into episodes later rather than having all of it planned out beforehand,
27:00 SOMA is very explicit that it is NOT a 50/50 shot for who comes out the other end. The game makes it very clear that the you that dies is always you. When you walk into a teleporter you don’t flip a coin on your consciousness being sent to the next place or not, the You that entered always dies and a duplicates comes out the other side. By SOMA logic the Donna that we see after this episode is a new being while the Donna before this episode is permanently dead
Although the logic in Doctor Who may be different if there is an in universe canonical soul that follows a single digital and/or physical being, thus conferring realness and originality on to that duplicate.
Been scrolling looking for this, Cathrine really hammers it in at the end. Makes me think about how we’re just meat computers with our consciousness as ‘software.’ Soma was such a good experience 🙏
I think the way the doctor stops the vashta nerada is perfect. Even when he has no way of stopping the enemy, just his history, experience and amount he’s killed is enough to give him a day to save everyone and stop the vashta nerada.
Also I gotta say Alex Kingston does a great job at showing river song having a history with the doctor. If you watch river song from start to finish(from the perspective of river though(so you’d start with the episode she’s born then let’s kill evil dictator)) there isn’t a weird disconnect where she seems less developed from the last time you see her
"I'm the Doctro and you're in the biggest library in the universe. Look me up."
One of the Coldest lines of 10's era.
Every time I watch one of your videos it just makes me want to rewatch all of doctor who but I’m not complaining 😌
Im sorry but that photo of Moffat and Davies smiling is so cute
what was interesting to learn about this episode during the Doctor Who lockdown event was that Dr. Moon was intended to be the Doctors final incarnation and 45th life.
Evangelista always break my heart, Donna being nice to her was simple but so cute, most of the companions are trying to be clever, and impress their beloved Doctor... and really not caring for other people to be honest, but Donna no. She won't care about this being or act like The Doctor shit, like Clara, Yaz, Rose etc, Donna was her, in her best and seeing now, she was probably the companion that came most close to be The Doctor on the New Who (and well literally she became) but even without the Meta Crises, she was clever, she would care for the others around them, she scream in anger and sadness to the Doctor for him to save at least one person, in Fires Of Pompeii.
I just love this woman, one of the best companions hands down.
Only just noticed the similarities between the vashta narada spacesuits and those used by the aliens in ambassadors of death when I saw that thumbnail.
I also want it point out the missed but brilliant moment when the Doctor and Donna are asked to sign the contract, and they just look at each other and in perfect sync tear them up in the exact same manner and toss them away
I remember when I first saw Donna's screaming breakdown after her children disappeared...it broke my heart, even as a preteen, and it only hurts more now that I'm a parent myself.
I don't think I've ever really seen a performer reach the levels of grief that Tate portrayed during her time as Donna.
3:16 - I don’t mind the idea of planets with one purpose. It’s the kind of thing I imagine would be built within Magrathea.
1:59 I was so sure that CAL would be revealed as *another* version of Clara. "Aren't I a clever girl?"
So the Moff didn't want me to shoot myself in the head after all?
@@virginiatressider5753 Well *I* certainly don't.
Omg that makes so much sense!! And coz when we saw everything Clara did for the Doctor in that episode we saw the 10th in the library!! Why didn’t they add that, that’s such a good ideaaaa
@@user-gn5gb9pn1nit could have been a younger version of an echo of Clara omg that would work perfectly!!
She looks like a young Clara
this is one of my favourites. only waters of mars beat this one back when it came out. there have been so many good stories the top 5-10 are all fantastic that i cant rank them properly. this one is up there tho.
I absolutely adore when Doctor Who turns everyday things into some kind of threat, like when talking to yourself you aren’t actually by yourself
When we first watched this episode, it was a spooky thriller about shadows eating people, with an interesting character from the Doctor's future adding fuel to the mystery and suspense.
Watching it back now after the end of the 12th doctor's run, it's an absolutely heartbreaking conclusion to a years long arc which started with him crashing in a Scottish girl's back yard, and peaked with him getting married at the end of time and space itself.
River isn't just a companion, she is his wife, and even in this _first ever appearance_ you can tell she loves him.
Of course with 10 this is a bit unfortunate because, well she's not exactly the first girl to fall for David Tennant's face, but in that one scene where she says "please tell me you know who I am" and he responds with "who are you?" ... _chef's kiss_ peak performances from both actors here. David's face perfectly conveys the confusion 10 must be feeling, but Alex really steals it with just the way her face sinks. Even without context you could tell this is a crushing blow.
And her love for him is visibly different from Rose or Martha, it's not just an infatuation or a crush, it's clearly deeper, she fully expects him to at least partially reciprocate the energy.
With context, you honestly feel the blow with her, he's known her for her whole life, she's known him most of his... again, she's not just another girl he picked up, she's his wife, and the daughter of his best friend. And he has absolutely no idea who she is. It's tragic in a way only Doctor Who could be.
While Moffat gets a lot of flak for his cheap writing tricks, and a lot of it is well-earned, I think the whole story of Amy and Rory, and how that resulted in River, and the way that whole era kind of ends right here before it even began... I think it's actually a pretty brilliant use of time travel to subvert romance plots in an interesting and shockingly cohesive way on rewatch.
And god damn does it make so much of the Moffat era bittersweet on said rewatches. Starting right here with that first, last episode.
Saw these episodes about 10 years ago and sometimes I still hear "Hey! Who turned out the lights?" in my nightmares
The library episodes are awesome. It's epic. Seeing it again is as amazing as the later episodes, and river song is treated in that episode as great as she should be.
I love how the music always perfectly compliments the story, characters, and acting. Especially in this part with the "I'm the doctor" bit 28:15
My favourite Tenth Doctor story and one of my favourite stories of all time
"How did he get in? Intru-da window?"
Best Tennant quote.
This is one of my favourite episodes in all of doctor who. I know I'm gonna enjoy this review.
I think that River's death hits harder on rewatch after seeing her different adventures and that some scenes from those future episodes playing in your head as she talks about them
ah yes, the episode i told my mom wouldnt give me nightmares but ended up making me sleep in her room with the lights on for a week.
Does anyone remember the episode of Top Gear that made a joke about the zombiefied character being the stig tearing his face off
Haha no, but that's great
Moffat: *introduces Jack a beloved character*
Also Moffat: *erases everything introduced in the Davis era*
Jack was Davies’s character tho, Moffat just got to write him. I cant really see Moffat creating a flirtatious gay male character who’s explicitly gay, on his own accord as a straight writer back in 2004. There was definitely RTD influence in that two parter
I love the moffat era of Doctor who (RTD era is still perfect). However this episode compare to his later seasons, shows that he can make some of the best individual episode in all of doctor who however he isnt the best when he comes to stories to last an entire season, killing everyone off, bring them back an episode later, the length he keeps some of his companions and poor execution of season finales. The first 10 seasons of DW will always be my all-time favourite shows with its ups and downs. I'll take moffat's range of S tier episodes to D tier episodes then, Chibnall range of D tier episodes to F tier episodes, any day of the week.
brb harbo I gotta do my chores
how dare you
im back
Definitely one of my favs. The tragedy of Donna’s “husband” seeing her walk away in the real world, unable to shout for her because of his stutter
Screw the shadows: we all now that "Curse Of Fatal Death" is moffats masterpiece!
(Jokes aside it's Heaven Sent)
@kiekebe ruclips.net/video/tp_Fw5oDMao/видео.html
Here ya go
"They discovered fire."
These two episodes were the first that I ever heard of Doctor Who, that I remembered before watching the show. My siblings watched it, and I could only hear the repetitive line "Hey, who turned out the lights?", and could only wonder at the horror that was happening in the show. And after watching these episodes and 11's era, these two are in my top favorites of the entire show.
The happish ending to this two partner is needed as we have two brilliant but really dark episodes next and Donna's very sad departure.
ahh, one of the first instances of the doctor winning by saying "google me" while also being a nice setup for the other big databases full of dead people that moffat would go on to write. (to be clear this two parter is phenomenal and I love it a lot but WOW did moffat reuse a lot of tropes from it)
Yeah, the Doctor is the timeless child and can regenerate as much as s/he wants - but, and people tend to forget it, when they bring stuff like Rivers sacrifice up, the Doctor doesn't know this. No one knows this until the master found it out in "the timeless children". So I have no problem with that being brought up as a big stake-moment, since - and that is something people tend to forget, too - each doctor dies. Every doctor is a very individual personality. We have grumpy gramps, the space hobo, Mr. Venutian Aikido, Hair-and-Teeth, the boring one, the McKay-before-McKay-was-a-thing, the chessmaster, the "Who-am-I", the Wardoctor, the forgotten, the man, who regrets, the man who forgets, the Severus-Snape-version and the "fam"-Doctor.
When Jodie Whittaker gives up her sonic screwdriver and is then regenerating in someone new, that version of the Doctor is gone. She'll only return in books, comics, audioplays and the possible crossover, but the new doctor will never have the same personality-traits as their previous incarnations. Therefore: even if the Doctor can regenerate as many times as the doctor damn well pleases, it'll not be a fun situation, as could be seen in "The curse of the fatal death" or "Destiny of the Daleks", when Romana apparently was just bored with her old body and wanted to try out something new.
TBH - it would not surprise me, if the "timeless child" would later revealed to be either not the doctor - or not the only child, who could do this. The true timeless child - or the other timeless child - who could pull of that, would be Romana, explaining her carefree attitude to regenerating (and basically killing some of her own versions).
I really like the episode even though I absolutely hate River. I think she was fantastic in the library episodes
Didn’t expect to hear SOMA. Far too few know about that game.
Gaah, can't even start with this two-parter
I come back to this one at least once a year, just to remember what I consider part of the peak of the revival's worldbuilding and charm
The mystery of River made me biased towards the character up until series 6 (novelty wore off after a while)
The iconic Vashta Nerada making 7-year-old me avoid pretty much any shadow at night (I did have a toy sonic that I used to light the way tho)
aaagh, pretty much the only thing that doesn't sit well on it's own is how corrupted-upload miss evangelista looks right out of a youtube poop, but honestly it's just part of the 2008-y-ness and I can enjoy it for what it is
I truly wish the best for the show, I know it probably wont get better until someone else is running the it, but if something even came close to how great some of this later series 4 stuff is, i'd be more than happy
I know this is unrelated but I love how big finish is basically just loads of stories of the doctor who universe that have the possibility of being canon and gives answers and stuff to things within the show that the show runner can then put into the DW canon, and I LOVE IT!
I just realized how much the inside the saved world is like WandaVision, even down to Donna losing her non-existent family.
I love how scenes like 6:51 show how they forgot to render out the green screen 🤭🤭
I saw a bit of one of the library episodes on tv one day and it looked fun. But I didn't recognise it as Doctor Who, it wasn't well known in the Netherlands at the time. But years later, in my twenties I became a proper fan of the show and the Silence in the Library two parter is still one of my favourites.
Alex Kingston's performances are the only reason I like River Song. Steven Moffat's my favourite writer but I'm not blind to the fact that he made River a Mary Sue. Despite that, Kingston's charisma and passion make River fun to watch and she manages to bring heart to a character who, on paper, could very easily have been unbearable.
28:04 yah know, looking back, I'm wondering if she was talking about the "Stonehenge incident", or, as the specific wording suggests, "colonel runaway". (Or, perhaps both? I know she was there at demons run, but was she at pandorica?)
These are two of my favourite episodes of anything ever. The writing, the suspense, the performances, the chills... absolutely sublime
Make the Timeless Child a separate character, and have it's memories in the Doctor like some sort of biological Matrix. Basically the Doctor has had the Timeless Child's memories inside her head ever since the 1st Doctor. And make Jo Martin's Doctor the 14th Doctor.
I don't think it was pointed out but at 5:29 you can see someone's shadow in the background. Clearly not belonging to either of the two in the shot. It might just be some stone bust but it's still terrifying when you notice it on rewatches
It was quite a nice segue from the ending of the previous episode being about Agatha Christie's books living on forever, to the next time we see the Doctor and Donna they're talking about books.