My buddy Paul was hit in the same area on his sapi plate when he dismounted his trac in ramadi. He said it felt like a solid punch. He stumbled a little bit and kept moving. Bruised and sore was the extent of his injury.
A high level boxer can punch up to 1000 joule, an average boxer 400-500 joule. Average 7.62x39 will be 2100 joule. You could probably get like 4 boxing gloves on a plate. Sounds logical if feels like a punch.
A buddy from my unit took 5 hits from an RPK in his SAPI plate. it stopped all of them, although 2 other bullets from the burst did hit him outside of where the plate was. Those plates are no joke
"Civilian law enforcement." How refreshing to hear someone who knows that police are civilians. It is truly remarkable. I rarely hear that. Thank you, Sir!
@@moosemaimer In the nuclear world, you don't have "a melt down followed by a steam explosion", you have "the core went supercritical and there was a power excursion".
Many years ago I got some IIIA soft armor. The sales rep promoted wearing soft armor while driving to reduce injury in case of accident. Seatbelt, steering wheel, etc. They wanted it back for review and would send new armor if you included a police and EMS report. They wanted more info on blunt trauma to the armor. Hard, soft, different materials all respond differently and can help in more than just being shot or stabbed.
Mas Ayoob was recommending this idea years ago, in addition to wearing safety glasses while driving the patrol car. I think he had some pretty good ideas.
I've seen kevlar vest being used as a standard in horse riding competitions, of all things. As it turns out, being impaled by an obstacle is a nasty way to die...
There's a well-known case of a Norwegian motorcycle cop who got run over by a car, as in the wheel went right over his chest. He was wearing soft body armor with an aluminium knife resistant outer plate, this armor setup is kind of like a medieval chest plate with kevlar padding. He did get badly injured, but the armor took most of the force amd he survived.
I can state from experience while wearing soft body armor, being struck by a axe handle several time during a altercation I never received any injuries. Actually while struggling with one suspect, I was unaware I was being struck by another.
Would definitely be interested in seeing spall blockers similar to the "V" shaped deflectors that older medieval armor had. Maybe something like an angled HDPE lip that mounts at the top of a steel plate.
Now THAT is a trademakable idea sir! Perhaps even a 3d printed "Clip-on" type with different fixing options for different plate types? .... Get on this asap!
@@jonathanshaw6784 If you're making it to be used it in a modern context, and rated against metal bullet spalling rather than wooden arrow shaft spalling, and attachable to modern armour and plates, I'd say yes. Not sure if the law sees it that way, though.
@Charles Yuditsky like how you see on modern helmets, there's a harness inside the helmet that keeps the surface of the helmet physically separated from actually touching your head, kind of like it's floating.
Speaking of medieval technology, i wonder why they don't add a small collar to the top of the armor plate. medieval cavalry were worried about lances sliding off the chest into the neck and throat area so they added a small lip to the top of the chest plates to deflect the lance away from the neck area. seems like this same design principles would apply to modern body armor as well. id imagine the reason they don't do it currently is because they get the heat treated plates from the factory or forge and don't want to ruin the heat treat, but that could be worked around by welding and molding the plate before heat treat.
Useless Fox Already tested, NIJ says you're good for the rated calibers, maybe some broken ribs. The guy that invented the bullet proof vest traveled around the US shooting himself with a .44 mag so if they test with handgun calibers anything short if a 4 inch .44 mag has been done and been well documented
It seems plausible that blunt trauma was more of an issue with the soft armors that first saw use. I have seen a picture from Korea, whera a US GI is showing of a compound bruise across his stomach where he was hit by a burst from a PPSH. The fact he walked away from that is pretty impressive in itself, of course. A hit from a shell fragment or a rifle bullet sufficiently long range to be stopped by the flak jacket could certainly carry significant amounts of momentum, As a (part time)soldier I wear an OpsCore ballistic helmet and a vest with front and back rifle plates and full wrap around level III soft armor. It would be very interesting to see how the non-rifle rated helmet and soft armor perform at long range. How far away would you need to be for the soft armor to stop an intermediate round could be an interesting test.
Had to watch again..Karl...inrange is my favorite channel...good fit for me..I like tactical stuff but I'm no ex operator..tho I have had a leg ripped off ..jst not by a ied
Thank you- great demonstrations! I also watched your piece in rethinking the AR-15. Would you kindly consider extrapolating our military staying with 556 vs 308 with concerns to soldiers battle armor and lack thereof? One article I read claimed that the newer Russian armor may be more than sufficient vs 556. That idea seems to spur on some consideration for switch 308. Most forces seem to lack body armor. How do we balance those needs in 21st century. Ps. Just some stuff I read and thoughts I had without expertise.
Thanks for this awesome look sort of behind the curtain at how these tests are run in a lab setting. As a control, I would have liked to see the clay shot without any armor, it's so easy for the mind to tell us that the clay itself has some kind of impact-resistant properties.
I'll be honest, I thought this was going to be a test of how well armor stands up to non-bullet attacks. Really expected to see a rifle with bayonet being flung at a target stand.
Would be interesting to see what kind of dent a fist punch leaves in the clay. I can see how 44mm can sound a lot to some people without any sort of comparison to a more "common" (and comparatively harmless) trauma.
Thanks for mentioning the 14.5 that the police in Northern Ireland were having to deal with. The IRA was using antimaterial weapons against police and basically, it was pushing the plate straight through their torso, they were basically better off not wearing the armor at that point.
great video that debunks common myths regarding body armor. with modern hard body armor, the backface deformation is NOT lethal, not even enough to cause much real harm at all. also there's a lot of hate for steel body armor, but it has less backforce deformation than ceramic despite most people claiming the opposite. hollywood and videogames actually exaggerates the power of firearm bullets, a person with proper armor against the caliber threat won't have shattered ribs or crushed lungs. statistically no police has ever been killed shot in their vest by a caliber it was rated to stop.
I think that I'd cope with the weight and heat build up of the rifle rated steel plate and soft armour as when bad things happen it's a great investment! Comfort comes second to protection every time, after all it's worn for protection not comfort!
@Charles Yuditsky Depending on the bullet weight of the 308 and barrel lengths there can be as much as 500 more foot pounds of energy from a 1760fps 1oz slug. I wonder how much deformation difference there is.
@@roboticrebel4092 its still energy transfer. All of the bullets shatter on impact. A slug would probably actually hold its shape better than a rifle projectile. It would be interesting to see if it made a difference
But there's a pretty big difference between 50 meters and 50 feet. 50 meters equals 164 feet, so you're talking over 110 foot difference between Miami Dade and this test. Granted, if the vest can stop a round at 50 feet then it will have no problem stopping that same round at 50 meters/
I can think of at least one instance off-hand where an officer was shot and killed at a distance a lot closer than 50 feet, but I assume he was talking about what's statistically more likely. I'm not too surprised by the results here. I've spoken to a British Army infantry veteran. One of his buddies took a burst from a PKM from 20 meters away, two rounds of which struck him in the plate directly over the spine. He didn't receive any serious injuries and was able to immediately carry on fighting.
Wonder what the utility of adding a thin(1-2mm) plate of high-grade/temper steel to the rear of the ceramic plate would be? The deformation would likely be less and the force spread over a much larger area so if it was achievable without adding too much weight it might be a worthwhile addition....
12 gauge is the only thing military and law enforcement are likely to see as far as rib breaking goes. But I've seen tests that show the larger area of a 12 gauge slug means it actually spreads it out over a larger area. You'd honestly be better off shooting someone with buckshot hoping for a hit around the armor than a direct hit by a slug if you wanted to down someone
I've shot a Winchester Super-X 28g/1oz 12ga slug into a NIJ IIIA rated helmet (from a top-down direction, after using all the sides for pistol testing) and it pretty much turned the helmet inside out. Still, there was no penetration, likely du to the large frontal area and relatively low velocity (490 m/s / 1600 fps) of the projectile. My feeling from this is that slug wouldn't cause too much deformation to a rifle plate. I'd love to see somebody test it.
I believe you brought up a very interesting point. How much would it effect you if you had some form of back face deformation in a specific area that would cause a lot of physical pain. Compare it to some boxing of MMA fight, getting punched in the liver or kidney could technically end a fight, so could a hit in a specific are that wasn't lethal still take you out of the fight? I feel like that could be an interesting video.
I think that order of shots made significant difference in the results. On the last shot, there was no contact between hard plate and soft armor because of deformation from the previous shot. If order of shots were reversed, I think results would be quite different. Edit: I think that shooting AR1000 plate closer to the edge would make a difference too.
Fascinating video, but you made an error when stating that no officers had been killed at a range of less than 50 feet with a rifle. Deputy Kyle Dinkheller, of Laurens County, GA. In January of 1998 while pulling over Andrew Howard Brannan for speeding, the veteran of the Vietnam war became agitated, goading the deputy to shoot him. When the deputy continued to plead rather than shooting, Andrew Brannan removed an M1 Carbine from his vehicle and after a short gunfight, shot the deputy to death. This is the only case I know of, but it was a murder of a law enforcement officer committed at
Why don't any steel plates change their geometry to try to mitigate spalling? Seems like you could have a small bent lip on the top edge that would help prevent you catching spall in the neck.
I have been wondering about that too. You can see that kind of lips on munitions plate and some steel plate designs of ww1 used them too so it HAS been done before
@@Salesman9001 Problem is that they're the budget insert for the current PC's, which don't have space for a plate to extend far enough up to make a lip practical (the lower it is from the neck the more it needs to extend out). There are standalone or integrated ballistic throat protectors out there that would probably do the job.
Question: shelf life......Steel vs other options? As a homestead owner and not a professional, I may not be able to replace plates ever so many years Love this information y’all keep giving out
The plate was not constrained in the carrier and was allowed to move forward in the second shot on ceramic. Would there have been more BFD in a constrained plate?
I've been wondering, if the primary issue with steel plates as armor is the spalling, and UHMWPE plates are excellent at protecting against spalling, why not make a UHMWPE plate with a steel core? That way you don't need to worry about the various liners they use on steel plates peeling off after 2-3 shots.(which I know is excessive but we don't own/wear armor because we are assuming best-case scenarios right?) UHMWPE is very lightweight, though it would add bulk to the steel plate, but I think having the durability of steel, the round-stopping capability of steel, combined with the spall capturing traits of UHMWPE would certainly make the bulk worth it. Having a 1/2 inch thick plate is nice, but if I'm gonna catch spall in my arms, legs, and under my chin when the plate gets hit then it's all worthless imo. I'd rather have an inch thick plate that would take a ton of hits like steel can while capturing all the spall.
It would be interesting to see the blunt force affect when delivered to stand alone 'soft armor' which is pretty much all store clerks and pizza delivery folk usually wear.
A rifle round will go straight through that and out the other side, without a plate. Not a useful part of _this_ test. A separate comparison using pistol rounds might be interesting.
Great vid and great info! If possible, would like to see how the ceramic/poly armor does in conjunction with a trauma pad behind it instead of soft armor. Lots of just regular people that buy armor will probably just have a plate carrier with armor and then a trauma pad behind it. Curious to know if that trauma pad would do anywhere near as good a job as that soft armor did...
The spalling in the neck comment is something I've always wondered about, why don't they have a curled lip on the plates to stop that? It was done historically from roughly the 1300's through to the 1900's for specifically that reason.
I don't think any police have died from blunt force injury on a vest since like before the "if you get shot in the vest you're going to the hospital" procedure. Before that was standard there was a couple of such deaths (12 ga shotgun on both iirc)
My old squad leader too 3 hits from an rpk in 20005 06 sapi plate cracked but nothing got through. That the rounds hit diagonally causing the split but the backing stayed in tact.
In some medieval plate armor you often seen a protuding "V shape" on the top part of the breastplate (irongatearmory.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/MH-A0942-Churburg-Chestplate.jpg) to avoid shrapnel from broken arrows from flying up into the wearer. I wonder if something like that would work in modern armor to reduce spalling
Barrett .50 rifles supplied from US supporters to IRA back end of late 80's shooting over the border. And I know its 12.7mm before anyone asks. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Armagh_Sniper_(1990%E2%80%931997)
The IRA had at least one Boys AT rifle (0.55 inch). The only confirmed use I know of was in 1965 when they hit and severely damaged HMS Brave Borderer with it when it was moored in Waterford Harbour
Stuart Rogers : Some months ago, there was an article in a german arms magazine how terorists and criminals build their own arms, so your comment is surely true.
Chest armour will make the wearer more confident, not much more protected. It is much more efficient to wound the enemy than to kill him; any significant wound to the lower body and extremities will put him out of commision anyway and also make him a burden, as having to be evacuated and cared for, putting other combatants out of service and at risk as well. A dead body can be evacuted later, or not at all.
Please say what the plates product name is on your website thanks. Interested in a non tactical concealable plate soft armor carrier with a ceramic plate
And we need to always keep in mind, that without armor, that type of bullet with that mass and velocity, passing into and through a body, that is likely a lethal wound. You are out of the fight and you probably are fighting for your life, at the very least......
On medeivil armor there was a v shaped piece that deflected arrows, sword points, lance points and what not, why dont they put something similar on steel plates for spalling? It would need to be slightly larger but the same should apply for bullet fragments i would think. Or has this idea been tried already?
My guess would be that the relative rarity of folks getting shot by a rifle round while wearing steel plates just wouldn’t make the added complexity of adding a large lip/ridge worth it, especially since anti spalling coatings are pretty good.
I could probably make you a thing to test, if you want. I'm thinking of a mesh of stuffed ribbons, providing a lot of padding thickness while remaining breathable. Would have to try different mesh sizes.
I may be stupid for saying this but these plates cover very little of your body when are we going to stop looking at the past and move to more full coverage armor
I don't trust the validity of the results of the second shot on the ceramic armour (with the soft kevlar backing). That particular piece of plate could not, given the deformation from the first impact, have been repeatably situated snugly against the clay dummy-torso and would have had a fairly substantial stand-off distance (i.e. there's no way it was "worn" correctly). I don't think the results from that second shot on the ceramic plate are trustworthy. I think the plate existing deformation pattern would have "rolled" like a wave, up the soft kevlar padding, and wouldn't have imparted it's energy in the same way. I get the plates are expensive, but I don't think reusing the plate in this situation returns a valid result.
@@InrangeTv The tone might've came across more strongly than intended. I wasn't trying to attack, only to suggest that the methodology might not have been perfect and you might have overlooked one possible, fairly serious confounding factor. As much as I would enjoy trying to repeat and improve your tests, I'm afraid that's not possible in my current circumstances.
Not a bad idea but I think due to how far your face/chin sticks out over your chest that the angled “lip” as you might call it would have to be quite large and probably not worth the cost and effort relative to the problem.
As someone that wears external soft armor everyday, a neck protector would be extremely annoying in about 99% of daily activities. I'd assume the same would be applicable to plate carriers as well.
I had a friend who felt that the best way to go about it was he wore his ceramic armor like all the time and then and he had a level four steel plate and carrier in his trunk at all times and he felt sense if anything went down that required him to have a lvl-4 plate and an LG of some sort he would first want to protect his family and get them out of there before he did anything else which would take him back to his car or he would be in or near his car already was his thoughts on the subject me personally I have always found this funny because I've never been in any kind of fight whether that was a fish fight knife fight gunfight didn't matter it could be an argument for Christ's sake but I never had the chance to go hang on I'm going to go level up real quick but I do understand the idea of putting your family safety above all others and I kind of feel like most people whether they were armed or not would do that
![Summer Walker - Heart Of A Woman [Official Lyric Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SFddctbZzw8/mqdefault.jpg)
A guy was telling me that a 30-30 would still kill you if you were wearing plates. I didn't directly call him a moron, but I am sending him this video
Buzzard Beaks maybe he meant if you were wearing a plate and got shot in the face. Ha
Well according to your buddy's logic, if the army is worried about body armor becoming prevalent they should just give every rifleman a marlin.
Charles Yuditsky. I am. Avondale to be exact but I was born in Springerville
Paper plates sure
@@cmikles1 my thought too
My buddy Paul was hit in the same area on his sapi plate when he dismounted his trac in ramadi. He said it felt like a solid punch. He stumbled a little bit and kept moving. Bruised and sore was the extent of his injury.
lucky guy
Did it crack the plate?
@@billstevens5277 yes
7.62×39 presumably
A high level boxer can punch up to 1000 joule, an average boxer 400-500 joule. Average 7.62x39 will be 2100 joule. You could probably get like 4 boxing gloves on a plate. Sounds logical if feels like a punch.
A buddy from my unit took 5 hits from an RPK in his SAPI plate. it stopped all of them, although 2 other bullets from the burst did hit him outside of where the plate was. Those plates are no joke
"Civilian law enforcement." How refreshing to hear someone who knows that police are civilians. It is truly remarkable. I rarely hear that.
Thank you, Sir!
James Maxwell ACAB
@@edgedcanshufl praxis
Man walking in range, wearing that shirt, you know he's not afraid of anything.
Tokrus pretty cunning, don’t ya think?
@@509Gman Damn straight!
Not even hearing loss!
When maw duce talks everybody listens.
Not a dent, it's a backface deformation pattern. I'll need to remember that.
It's not an explosion, it's a "rapid unplanned disassembly."
@@moosemaimer those R.U.D can be impressive.
The "dent" is in the front.
@@moosemaimer In the nuclear world, you don't have "a melt down followed by a steam explosion", you have "the core went supercritical and there was a power excursion".
"Honey, why is there a backface deformation pattern in the car?"
Many years ago I got some IIIA soft armor. The sales rep promoted wearing soft armor while driving to reduce injury in case of accident. Seatbelt, steering wheel, etc. They wanted it back for review and would send new armor if you included a police and EMS report. They wanted more info on blunt trauma to the armor. Hard, soft, different materials all respond differently and can help in more than just being shot or stabbed.
Mas Ayoob was recommending this idea years ago, in addition to wearing safety glasses while driving the patrol car. I think he had some pretty good ideas.
I've seen kevlar vest being used as a standard in horse riding competitions, of all things. As it turns out, being impaled by an obstacle is a nasty way to die...
There's a well-known case of a Norwegian motorcycle cop who got run over by a car, as in the wheel went right over his chest. He was wearing soft body armor with an aluminium knife resistant outer plate, this armor setup is kind of like a medieval chest plate with kevlar padding. He did get badly injured, but the armor took most of the force amd he survived.
I read somewhere that most "saves" by vests were traffic accidents
I can state from experience while wearing soft body armor, being struck by a axe handle several time during a altercation I never received any injuries. Actually while struggling with one suspect, I was unaware I was being struck by another.
Would definitely be interested in seeing spall blockers similar to the "V" shaped deflectors that older medieval armor had. Maybe something like an angled HDPE lip that mounts at the top of a steel plate.
Now THAT is a trademakable idea sir! Perhaps even a 3d printed "Clip-on" type with different fixing options for different plate types? .... Get on this asap!
@@peterbenson2185 can you trademark something that was invented 100s of years ago?
@@jonathanshaw6784 If you're making it to be used it in a modern context, and rated against metal bullet spalling rather than wooden arrow shaft spalling, and attachable to modern armour and plates, I'd say yes. Not sure if the law sees it that way, though.
The BMI of blunt force trama. Well put Karl.
And this is not surprising back in medieval time they did where gambeson (linen armor) under chain mail or plate armor
I can’t imagine taking a hit from a pole axe with bare mail on. Definitely a good way to get bones broken.
@@cmikles1 nah man builds character lol
@Charles Yuditsky Also floating helmets
@Charles Yuditsky like how you see on modern helmets, there's a harness inside the helmet that keeps the surface of the helmet physically separated from actually touching your head, kind of like it's floating.
Speaking of medieval technology, i wonder why they don't add a small collar to the top of the armor plate. medieval cavalry were worried about lances sliding off the chest into the neck and throat area so they added a small lip to the top of the chest plates to deflect the lance away from the neck area. seems like this same design principles would apply to modern body armor as well. id imagine the reason they don't do it currently is because they get the heat treated plates from the factory or forge and don't want to ruin the heat treat, but that could be worked around by welding and molding the plate before heat treat.
The soft armor on its own looks like a giant Kraft single.
Thank you for making this! Lots of mythos surrounding this topic
Would love to see another test with just soft armor against handgun rounds
Useless Fox Already tested, NIJ says you're good for the rated calibers, maybe some broken ribs.
The guy that invented the bullet proof vest traveled around the US shooting himself with a .44 mag so if they test with handgun calibers anything short if a 4 inch .44 mag has been done and been well documented
Yeah, body armor is already rated for handgun rounds as it were
Go check out Taofledermaus here on TheyTube. Those guys have shot kevlar with a lot of different stuff.
I suspect the original spec was 1.75" (44.45mm) and that was converted to the nearest round number in millimeters.
Sorta like how the speed of sound is a round number in feet per second
It seems plausible that blunt trauma was more of an issue with the soft armors that first saw use. I have seen a picture from Korea, whera a US GI is showing of a compound bruise across his stomach where he was hit by a burst from a PPSH. The fact he walked away from that is pretty impressive in itself, of course. A hit from a shell fragment or a rifle bullet sufficiently long range to be stopped by the flak jacket could certainly carry significant amounts of momentum,
As a (part time)soldier I wear an OpsCore ballistic helmet and a vest with front and back rifle plates and full wrap around level III soft armor. It would be very interesting to see how the non-rifle rated helmet and soft armor perform at long range. How far away would you need to be for the soft armor to stop an intermediate round could be an interesting test.
Awesome stuff InRangeTV as usual
Thanks for the education. That was so much more quantifiable than simply shooting a plate and looking at the dings in it
Another fantastic video and collaboration! I was wanting to see you shoot the clay, Karl.
Buffman R.A.N.G.E. has hundreds of armor tests on his channel with strict adherence to NIJ standards.
I love Carl's looks to the camera and smiles when he politely calls bull sht...I was thinking the same thing carl...
Same as when knights would wear padded cloth under their steel armor.
Yep.
@@InrangeTv Yep, some stuff sometimes never change.
We used to joke in my reenactment group "The great thing about mail is that it's really flexible. The only downside is that it's really flexible."
@@anthonyhayes1267 mail will let some breeze and most of the rain thru
Cool to see the collab with survival armor, we have some experience with ther soft armor. Comfort was good, fortunately no data on protection.
Had to watch again..Karl...inrange is my favorite channel...good fit for me..I like tactical stuff but I'm no ex operator..tho I have had a leg ripped off ..jst not by a ied
This channel is under rated
Thank you- great demonstrations! I also watched your piece in rethinking the AR-15. Would you kindly consider extrapolating our military staying with 556 vs 308 with concerns to soldiers battle armor and lack thereof? One article I read claimed that the newer Russian armor may be more than sufficient vs 556. That idea seems to spur on some consideration for switch 308. Most forces seem to lack body armor. How do we balance those needs in 21st century.
Ps. Just some stuff I read and thoughts I had without expertise.
Damn I cannot stop watching this channel!
So proper plates with a good backing 👌 good to know that for sure
Thanks for this awesome look sort of behind the curtain at how these tests are run in a lab setting.
As a control, I would have liked to see the clay shot without any armor, it's so easy for the mind to tell us that the clay itself has some kind of impact-resistant properties.
That was really interesting, thank you very much. I wonder if it would shrug off a Kasarda kettlebell assault?!!
I'll be honest, I thought this was going to be a test of how well armor stands up to non-bullet attacks.
Really expected to see a rifle with bayonet being flung at a target stand.
Thanks Karl, a very good demonstration.
Would be interesting to see what kind of dent a fist punch leaves in the clay. I can see how 44mm can sound a lot to some people without any sort of comparison to a more "common" (and comparatively harmless) trauma.
Thanks guys!
Very educational video and entertaining to boot. Thanks fellas.
I learned a lot from this video, thank you guys.
I'd really like to see what a big bore rifle does. Buffalo bore 45 70 would be awesome.
Military is allowing more because the average soldier has more innate padding than they used to have, lol
Natural impact reduction zones
I've lost a bunch of weight over the past year or so, and I've definitely noticed that chairs aren't as comfortable as they used to be.
Thanks for this demo. Really educational
Thanks for mentioning the 14.5 that the police in Northern Ireland were having to deal with. The IRA was using antimaterial weapons against police and basically, it was pushing the plate straight through their torso, they were basically better off not wearing the armor at that point.
At that point,i don't think any individual body armor will save you.
One thing I find interesting that you left out, is that the US military armor is always used in conjunction with soft armor backing.
great video that debunks common myths regarding body armor. with modern hard body armor, the backface deformation is NOT lethal, not even enough to cause much real harm at all. also there's a lot of hate for steel body armor, but it has less backforce deformation than ceramic despite most people claiming the opposite. hollywood and videogames actually exaggerates the power of firearm bullets, a person with proper armor against the caliber threat won't have shattered ribs or crushed lungs. statistically no police has ever been killed shot in their vest by a caliber it was rated to stop.
I think that I'd cope with the weight and heat build up of the rifle rated steel plate and soft armour as when bad things happen it's a great investment!
Comfort comes second to protection every time, after all it's worn for protection not comfort!
Well done. Now we know. Keep up the great work!
Try this with a 3" 12ga slug.
Something from Brenneke, just look at what the guys from TAOFLEDERMAUS say about them ;)
@Charles Yuditsky
Depending on the bullet weight of the 308 and barrel lengths there can be as much as 500 more foot pounds of energy from a 1760fps 1oz slug. I wonder how much deformation difference there is.
@@MrGiXxEr but the slug is bigger
i think it would just shatter
@@dreadnought8363
Or one of those Ddupleks rounds.
@@roboticrebel4092 its still energy transfer. All of the bullets shatter on impact. A slug would probably actually hold its shape better than a rifle projectile. It would be interesting to see if it made a difference
4:38 In the Miami Dade FBI shootout those agents were shot with a rifle from within 50 meters.
But there's a pretty big difference between 50 meters and 50 feet. 50 meters equals 164 feet, so you're talking over 110 foot difference between Miami Dade and this test. Granted, if the vest can stop a round at 50 feet then it will have no problem stopping that same round at 50 meters/
Really cool to see. If we're talking blunt force though, I think a shotgun slug would be interesting to see too.
I can think of at least one instance off-hand where an officer was shot and killed at a distance a lot closer than 50 feet, but I assume he was talking about what's statistically more likely.
I'm not too surprised by the results here. I've spoken to a British Army infantry veteran. One of his buddies took a burst from a PKM from 20 meters away, two rounds of which struck him in the plate directly over the spine. He didn't receive any serious injuries and was able to immediately carry on fighting.
Wonder what the utility of adding a thin(1-2mm) plate of high-grade/temper steel to the rear of the ceramic plate would be? The deformation would likely be less and the force spread over a much larger area so if it was achievable without adding too much weight it might be a worthwhile addition....
12 ga slug, 45-70, and .50Beo I imagine are near rib breaking upon hitting. 308 might be more acute area damage.
NO STEP ON SNEK!!!
12 gauge is the only thing military and law enforcement are likely to see as far as rib breaking goes. But I've seen tests that show the larger area of a 12 gauge slug means it actually spreads it out over a larger area. You'd honestly be better off shooting someone with buckshot hoping for a hit around the armor than a direct hit by a slug if you wanted to down someone
I've shot a Winchester Super-X 28g/1oz 12ga slug into a NIJ IIIA rated helmet (from a top-down direction, after using all the sides for pistol testing) and it pretty much turned the helmet inside out. Still, there was no penetration, likely du to the large frontal area and relatively low velocity (490 m/s / 1600 fps) of the projectile. My feeling from this is that slug wouldn't cause too much deformation to a rifle plate. I'd love to see somebody test it.
@@aqualung. IIIA isn't the same thing as III. IIIA is only rated for pistol cartridges
@@shaggnar2014 Winchester makes spitzer slugs now. Something like 2000 feet per second. I was thinking about that watching this video.
I think it's Winchester, might be Remington.
I believe you brought up a very interesting point. How much would it effect you if you had some form of back face deformation in a specific area that would cause a lot of physical pain. Compare it to some boxing of MMA fight, getting punched in the liver or kidney could technically end a fight, so could a hit in a specific are that wasn't lethal still take you out of the fight? I feel like that could be an interesting video.
I think that order of shots made significant difference in the results. On the last shot, there was no contact between hard plate and soft armor because of deformation from the previous shot. If order of shots were reversed, I think results would be quite different.
Edit: I think that shooting AR1000 plate closer to the edge would make a difference too.
I’m a little late but want to say great content. I wondered about this when Benicio del Toro shot Emily Blunt in Sicario.
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Would be interesting to see the but of the gun against the clay and what that impact looks like
Intersting stuff. Im putting together a plate carrier at the moment.
Fascinating video, but you made an error when stating that no officers had been killed at a range of less than 50 feet with a rifle.
Deputy Kyle Dinkheller, of Laurens County, GA. In January of 1998 while pulling over Andrew Howard Brannan for speeding, the veteran of the Vietnam war became agitated, goading the deputy to shoot him. When the deputy continued to plead rather than shooting, Andrew Brannan removed an M1 Carbine from his vehicle and after a short gunfight, shot the deputy to death.
This is the only case I know of, but it was a murder of a law enforcement officer committed at
M1 carbine is no rifle. Technically speaking, anyway. ;P
There were also the cops who were killed during the Dallas shooting. At least that one who got ran up on behind the building column in the video.
Thanks. Tremendously interesting.
Why don't any steel plates change their geometry to try to mitigate spalling? Seems like you could have a small bent lip on the top edge that would help prevent you catching spall in the neck.
I have been wondering about that for years
I have been wondering about that too. You can see that kind of lips on munitions plate and some steel plate designs of ww1 used them too so it HAS been done before
Same here. The coat of plates had the gorget or bevor that covered the neck. It wouldn’t need to be as big as those, but a lip at the top would help.
@@Salesman9001 Problem is that they're the budget insert for the current PC's, which don't have space for a plate to extend far enough up to make a lip practical (the lower it is from the neck the more it needs to extend out). There are standalone or integrated ballistic throat protectors out there that would probably do the job.
Question: shelf life......Steel vs other options? As a homestead owner and not a professional, I may not be able to replace plates ever so many years
Love this information y’all keep giving out
Thank you for the information!
The plate was not constrained in the carrier and was allowed to move forward in the second shot on ceramic. Would there have been more BFD in a constrained plate?
Great work. Love this science content.
Very educational, thanks
I've been wondering, if the primary issue with steel plates as armor is the spalling, and UHMWPE plates are excellent at protecting against spalling, why not make a UHMWPE plate with a steel core? That way you don't need to worry about the various liners they use on steel plates peeling off after 2-3 shots.(which I know is excessive but we don't own/wear armor because we are assuming best-case scenarios right?)
UHMWPE is very lightweight, though it would add bulk to the steel plate, but I think having the durability of steel, the round-stopping capability of steel, combined with the spall capturing traits of UHMWPE would certainly make the bulk worth it. Having a 1/2 inch thick plate is nice, but if I'm gonna catch spall in my arms, legs, and under my chin when the plate gets hit then it's all worthless imo. I'd rather have an inch thick plate that would take a ton of hits like steel can while capturing all the spall.
It would be interesting to see the blunt force affect when delivered to stand alone 'soft armor' which is pretty much all store clerks and pizza delivery folk usually wear.
A rifle round will go straight through that and out the other side, without a plate. Not a useful part of _this_ test. A separate comparison using pistol rounds might be interesting.
Great vid and great info! If possible, would like to see how the ceramic/poly armor does in conjunction with a trauma pad behind it instead of soft armor. Lots of just regular people that buy armor will probably just have a plate carrier with armor and then a trauma pad behind it. Curious to know if that trauma pad would do anywhere near as good a job as that soft armor did...
What are the weights of the 3 different armours (steel, ceramic and textile) per square cm (or inch if you prefer)?
The spalling in the neck comment is something I've always wondered about, why don't they have a curled lip on the plates to stop that? It was done historically from roughly the 1300's through to the 1900's for specifically that reason.
There were neck protectors issued in the early U.S army IOTV's but most soldiers didn't use it.
Karl found somebody that likes to talk more than he does 😉
Even goes back to old medieval armour, need the padded vest underneath for maximum effect.
Why not put a thinner outward lip on the upper part of the plate, to stop spall from hitting your throat?
I don't think any police have died from blunt force injury on a vest since like before the "if you get shot in the vest you're going to the hospital" procedure.
Before that was standard there was a couple of such deaths (12 ga shotgun on both iirc)
Now we need to see the same tests with a 375 H&H Mag loaded with 300 grain dangerous game solids. That is what I will be slinging down range!
My old squad leader too 3 hits from an rpk in 20005 06 sapi plate cracked but nothing got through. That the rounds hit diagonally causing the split but the backing stayed in tact.
Was he injured? Broken ribs?
In some medieval plate armor you often seen a protuding "V shape" on the top part of the breastplate (irongatearmory.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/MH-A0942-Churburg-Chestplate.jpg) to avoid shrapnel from broken arrows from flying up into the wearer. I wonder if something like that would work in modern armor to reduce spalling
Some armor does have that. Like Russian 6b23, or the Korund VM-K
Can someone explain the '14.5 used in ireland' line??? Who got shot with a KPV during the troubles???
IRA made use of homemade anti materiel, single shot rifles. I guess that's where its come from.
Barrett .50 rifles supplied from US supporters to IRA back end of late 80's shooting over the border. And I know its 12.7mm before anyone asks.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Armagh_Sniper_(1990%E2%80%931997)
Not aware of 14.5mm used, but the IRA did use DShK machine guns
The IRA had at least one Boys AT rifle (0.55 inch). The only confirmed use I know of was in 1965 when they hit and severely damaged HMS Brave Borderer with it when it was moored in Waterford Harbour
Stuart Rogers : Some months ago, there was an article in a german arms magazine how terorists and criminals build their own arms, so your comment is surely true.
Karl, that is one cool shirt you have.
Very interesting!
next video fragmentation test like the ones you receive after an IED or any other blast that hit you with secondary fragments.
Pretty sure the Dallas shooter two or three years ago took out a few cops at just over 10 feet, I saw some pretty brutal video of that.
That plate is tiny.
Swedish steel baby, believe it!
Chest armour will make the wearer more confident, not much more protected. It is much more efficient to wound the enemy than to kill him; any significant wound to the lower body and extremities will put him out of commision anyway and also make him a burden, as having to be evacuated and cared for, putting other combatants out of service and at risk as well. A dead body can be evacuted later, or not at all.
I want to see what 45-70+P hard-casts do.
What rifle is that? it looks sweet as.
Please say what the plates product name is on your website thanks. Interested in a non tactical concealable plate soft armor carrier with a ceramic plate
Armox is awesome👍🏻
And we need to always keep in mind, that without armor, that type of bullet with that mass and velocity, passing into and through a body, that is likely a lethal wound. You are out of the fight and you probably are fighting for your life, at the very least......
On medeivil armor there was a v shaped piece that deflected arrows, sword points, lance points and what not, why dont they put something similar on steel plates for spalling? It would need to be slightly larger but the same should apply for bullet fragments i would think. Or has this idea been tried already?
My guess would be that the relative rarity of folks getting shot by a rifle round while wearing steel plates just wouldn’t make the added complexity of adding a large lip/ridge worth it, especially since anti spalling coatings are pretty good.
Would encapsulating steel plate inside kevlar soft armor control spalling?
It would help a lot, yes.
What weapon is he using in this video? Is it a SCAR variant?
Ive seen the "backface deformation pattern" on 3a helmets from 44 mag. Would added kevlar backing help reduce that cave in of trauma?
I could probably make you a thing to test, if you want. I'm thinking of a mesh of stuffed ribbons, providing a lot of padding thickness while remaining breathable. Would have to try different mesh sizes.
I may be stupid for saying this but these plates cover very little of your body when are we going to stop looking at the past and move to more full coverage armor
I don't trust the validity of the results of the second shot on the ceramic armour (with the soft kevlar backing). That particular piece of plate could not, given the deformation from the first impact, have been repeatably situated snugly against the clay dummy-torso and would have had a fairly substantial stand-off distance (i.e. there's no way it was "worn" correctly). I don't think the results from that second shot on the ceramic plate are trustworthy. I think the plate existing deformation pattern would have "rolled" like a wave, up the soft kevlar padding, and wouldn't have imparted it's energy in the same way. I get the plates are expensive, but I don't think reusing the plate in this situation returns a valid result.
We look forward to your video demonstrating your claims.
@@InrangeTv The tone might've came across more strongly than intended. I wasn't trying to attack, only to suggest that the methodology might not have been perfect and you might have overlooked one possible, fairly serious confounding factor. As much as I would enjoy trying to repeat and improve your tests, I'm afraid that's not possible in my current circumstances.
Test with UHMWPE plates ?!?!
Just dont get shot at in the first place. Worked for me so far.
why dont plate carriers have a small 45° neck protector that sticks out?
In the form of:
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Not a bad idea but I think due to how far your face/chin sticks out over your chest that the angled “lip” as you might call it would have to be quite large and probably not worth the cost and effort relative to the problem.
@@JimYeats it doesnt have to be steel though, just something to deflect the spalling. Not longer than 4 inches probably
As someone that wears external soft armor everyday, a neck protector would be extremely annoying in about 99% of daily activities. I'd assume the same would be applicable to plate carriers as well.
Well, if you have a spalling protection layer then there's no need (theoretically)
Is AR1000 NIJ certified? (Not tested to)
Why not simply use a 50c ruler with millimeter markings on it
Do trauma plates help?
What kind of rifle is that?
I was wondering the same and did some digging, looks like a Robinson Arms XCR-M.
I had a friend who felt that the best way to go about it was he wore his ceramic armor like all the time and then and he had a level four steel plate and carrier in his trunk at all times and he felt sense if anything went down that required him to have a lvl-4 plate and an LG of some sort he would first want to protect his family and get them out of there before he did anything else which would take him back to his car or he would be in or near his car already was his thoughts on the subject me personally I have always found this funny because I've never been in any kind of fight whether that was a fish fight knife fight gunfight didn't matter it could be an argument for Christ's sake but I never had the chance to go hang on I'm going to go level up real quick but I do understand the idea of putting your family safety above all others and I kind of feel like most people whether they were armed or not would do that