UPDATE - I've taken out a couple of names that mistakenly got added into the "wrestlers who never got 5 stars". I also said Bret vs Owen at WrestleMania got 5 stars but that was actually their cage match rematch at Summerslam a few months later. ORIGINAL MESSAGE - James here - I ballsed up on the list slightly. Eddie DID have a 5 star match (that AAA World’s Collide PPV) but I searched for “Eddie” and it was written down as “Eddy” so it didn’t come up. Owens and Sami got 5 stars from WrestleMania 39 night one against The Usos, I got their names off of an old list. The rest I think are right though.
That was pretty easy right? Own up to a mistake? You did it like it was nothing. Makes you wonder why someone Dave Meltzer can’t seem to build the courage to do it…ever
One of the unique traits of Punk that makes him the favorite of millions. The man freely speaks his mind. That’s extremely rare for someone of his level of fame.
@@lazyfrogeyes5949 that's hilarious cause I'm in the same boat. I don't like the dude but you don't have to like someone to recognize their talent and their skill at their craft and in this case, being a box office draw that many people are willing to pay good money to see live or buy his merch
Will Ospreay has had like 40 5 star matches. I bet most fans couldn't name half of those. Even Meltzer couldn't remember all those I bet. If they are so good they wouldn't forgotten. Theres tons of matches still talked about today by fans decades later than Meltzer rated like 3 stars
@AnneHathawayRules Ospreay is an interesting one, he's caught in a pretty rough spot in that the Meltzer crowd seriously overrates him and the more traditional crowd wrongly dismisses him as a spot monkey. The truth is somewhere in between, but we're in 2024 and only extreme viewpoints are tolerable apparently
@@theonetheonlyjoey don't get me wrong I didn't mean to take a dump on the guy I think he's a great wrestler I'm just saying the way that Dave blows him makes him overrated
Kurt Angle is a machine, hard to beat in regards of ability. His character evolved great too, at first I didn't think he could transition to the TV style wrestler but he sure as hell did.
Cornette is one of the biggest marks in pro wrestling history. Just because a bunch of incel neckbeards agree with him that wrestling still should be like it was in 1985 doesn’t make him right about anything.
This is the greatest wrestling show in my opinon. You guys have such a great flow together and work so hard to bring this content to us. It is rare to find a show where both guys do an equal or so amount of work on making the show great.
I think it's downright weird that we care what Dave Meltzer thinks at all. I enjoy the matches Meltzer rates highly, but it's so subjective that it just doesn't matter what one guy thinks. As for a bias, I don't know if he just isn't into the WWE style, or if the presentation of the show isn't his thing, or what, but obviously he disproportionally favours other companies. As far as Kurt Angle never getting a five star match, that's absurd in my view, but if it's his opinion... Cool story? I just think you're wrong, Dave. It's been 20 years and I still think back on Angle Vs Michaels at Wrestlemania 21 as one of the best matches I've ever seen.
Some people, rather lamentably, simply wanna be told what they should enjoy so that when they enjoy things, they feel like they're part of a larger group and aren't outcasts for liking something. Meltzer's star ratings exploit this. He exploits those fans quite well.
Disagree. Skip is an eloquent speaker. I also think Meltzer is a true believer whereas Skip will turn up the volume or pick a side on a debate solely for salacious entertainment purposes
In his interview with CVV, Meltzer couldn't even define the parameters needed to have a 5 star match. He doesn't even know what it takes to have a 5 star match, but somehow he still rates them 5 stars.
@@tonyclifton2230No, Dave presents his opinions as facts that’s why everyone is baffled that he has no solid reasoning behind guys like Kurt never having 5 stars
I sat next to Meltzer at All Out '22, he doesn't actively watch the show. He spent the entire time looking at and typing in his laptop while his entourage told him what was happening and what they thought about it. That's when I learned his ratings mean nothing.
I would personally add No Way Out 2004 vs Eddie, Royal Rumble 2015 vs Cena and Rollins and WrestleMania 31 vs Reigns and Rollins. Some others might say Survivor Series 2018 vs Bryan.
Bryan definitely deserved a 5 star match for the opening match at Mania 30. The triple threat both 30 and 37 could easily be considered as well. He also had Kofimania and his match on Smackdown with Styles in 2018 where he made his big heel turn. That's at least 5 right there off the top of my head.
@@jacekkaplon200 ya know... ya can say "X should have been 5*" while agreeing "this other match was better". 'just cause you think Taker VS Michaels was better doesn't mean that Austin VS Bret didn'T deserve 5*, as an example.
It's because he got worked by The Bucks. They realized he was a mark, they named a move after them, introduced him to Omega and have Dave convince his audience that they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. The people that disagree with Dave's take on wrestling left a long time ago. Thr only people left paying him $14.99 a month are hard-core smarks that also think The Elite are the greatest thing since sliced bread. If he backed down now he'd cut off his subscriber base. It's obvious he has no sources left in WWE, AEW is his cash cow too. He has to felate the people that feed him info so he has something to print, and those who his readers like, lest they unsubscribe.
I 100% agree with Richards here, the arena is a quarter full, the tv ratings are mediocre at best...AEW wrestlers need to be concerned about their paycheck, thier investment accounts, their future far more then they need to be concerned with match ratings from a guy who thought Mable was going to be the 3rd outsider in WCW
@@evanhunke1676lol they don't need to worry about a paycheck, Tony Khan is a millionaire, his father a billionaire, nobody's worried about money, especially when AEW pays more. Every wrestler that left WWE and went to AEW now makes more money, and don't have to wrestle 5 nights a week. It's a better structure.
Meltzer didn't even create the system. It was the creation of Norman Dooley & Jim Cornette. Meltzer copied it, bastardized it and some how convinced a generation of Mark fans that it means more than anything to your career.
Cornette is also giant mark - dude proudly admits to having no other interests outside pro-wrestling and loving it more than anything else in life…like Meltzer would also never dream of getting in the ring
@@rampageclover9788 Jim Cornette WAS in the Ring, however. He's too old now. He never was a wrestler as main role, but there were matches where he was an active participant in the ring, and then there are the bumps he took as manager... like the Scaffold fall...
@@rampageclover9788huh? Cornette has taken some big bumps. He also has been In the ring numerous times. During the territory days manager battle royals were semi regular going from town to town. Comparing Cornette to Meltzer is a horrible comparison. Cornette’s one of the greatest mangers ever and legendary on the stick, Meltzer is just a wrestling reporter who stopped being objective once he became friends with certain wrestlers
@@rampageclover9788Cornette has been a manager, booker, agent, and owner. What are you talking about ?? Cornette isn’t a mark at all. He just hates the soft wrestlers you love.
Stevie, don’t sell yourself short sir…I’m 36, you were a part of my childhood. ECW in its prime, a character on WWE No Mercy, and had some great matches. Love you man!
Just yesterday Davie announced Afa's passing hours before it actually happened. When Afa's daughter Vale corrected him on it all he did was edit his statement. No apology for getting it wrong in the first place.
That’s it. Dave is clearly the worst person in the world. How could someone even dare to not apologise for a mistake? What a weapons-grade asshole. No dinner for Dave.
Dave is best to just not be acknowledged now. Not cancelled, just paid no mind. There is a whole segment of social media content now that just chases engagement, which is to say, they will just put out blatantly ridiculous or flat out wrong statements just because the sh!tstorm of comments and backlash boosts them in social media algorithms under the "engagement" metric. Dave may actually be doing this inadvertently, but he is doing it nonetheless.
Whether they can be successful is a matter of perspective. There’s nothing wrong with being “stuck in that indie mindset... if you’re still happy that some goof gave you a five star match and the building’s a quarter full? We’re not in the same business.” Think this quote says it all.
This. So many just regurgitate whatever spew meltzer says. Then when the inevitable happens and his news turns out to be bullshit. They never question it or correct themselves. They just report whatever meltzer says next as fact
Saw Raven v Justin Credible at a half empty Mariucci arena in 2000, bumping and working everywhere. Those guys put on a 5 star match for those of us who got to see it.
@@LokiTricksterG and while he may be in a wheelchair, you can simply turn on Netflix change the channel go to a movie and get your next fix while some of these guys take unnecessary risks for all the wrong reasons. There's an expression that goes, "just because you can doesn't mean you should"
@@duckmercy11 that would be correct if you are there simply for Your entertainment to watch them light themselves on fire... Then you are not only a bad fan but you would be a bad parent as well
Meltzer's star ratings are one dimensional and only represent his personal taste. Dave Meltzer hates storytelling. He gets bored by building to a big match. He also hates cliffhanger endings that make the general public want to tune in next week. Dave wants his favorite moves performed in the exact same way every week without any reason for a match. He doesn't understand booking for a general audience or episodic storytelling.
@@danhill3302yes this, the first guy to say stop taking the ratings so seriously is Dave so I find it hilarious when people get so worked up over the ratings
@@silverbullet9442If this is the case why does he charge money for his news letter if its just an option why not give it for free like everyone else the fact is he believes in his system and has been doing this for a long time he should at the very least be able to explain the system which he can't now that I think about who the fuck pays for his slop?🤔😂
Would LOVE to see an episode on wrestling CARD psychology. I've heard almost everyone drone on about match psychology, but I've never heard anyone explain the ways in which a SHOW should flow.
In my opinion, the fans dictate what a great wrestling match is. One example that Al Snow says is " Andre vs Hogan was the 5 star match." Savage and Steamboat had the best match, but Andre and Hogan is what filled up the building. Hogan vs. Andre wasn't a good match, but the crowd was into it and lost it when Andre fell down - when a man fell down.
I have never read a single word or listened to a single syllable from Meltzer and I absolutely love the guy. Anybody that can twist so many panties in to so many bunches of so many people is doing something VERY right in my book.
As a wrestling historian, I will give Dave Meltzer his credit all day long. As a gatekeeper of who gets the best ranked matches with a very specific bias towards certain wrestlers and companies, he can kick rocks. Kurt Fucking Angle should have a plethora of 5⭐️ matches. Hopefully Stevie’s words ring true for many performers that they don’t need to kill themselves chasing a banana sticker from Meltzer.
Meltzer didn't come up with the star rating, he just made it popular. Cornette is actually the one who came up with it along his friend Norman "Weasel" Dooley.
Match quality is important yes, but I would say storyline is more important. To me a 5 star match is a match where you're so invested in it that you feel like you're on a roller coaster watching it. A match that gets your heart pumping, like Undertaker vs Shawn which had story, excitement, and good wrestling. A match like Kenny Omega vs Daniel Bryan in his AEW debut was good wrestling, but there was zero story zero investment. Nobody actually cared who won, it was just "woo look at the pretty moves". Like you're telling me THAT is the best these two could do? Because that's what a 5 star merch is supposed to be, the best. A match that will be remembered for generations to come.
It also depends on what you were brought up on watching, if you grew up going to indie shows you have to tell a story through the match as the shows are one offs and there’s no weekly tv show, if you grew up only watching wwe you most likely love the weekly storytelling but have also got accustomed to and just accepting of piss poor boring matches.
@ebransc09 I am pretty sure it was a take off movie ratings. Also the only reason you know the dooley name is because of corny and meltzer saying it. Name a dooley file star match?
This isnt to be mean, but Dave is absolutely on the spectrum - anyone who gets personally offended because others who watch an entertainment product dont place all of the products value on the technical facets that the entertainers only really need to focus on and buries himself in rooms of old wrestling tapes to be able to reference parts of obscure matches that dont matter to anyone, is why he comes across the way he does.
I'm a 33 year old dude on the spectrum and I am shocked a guy Dave's age has such limited ability to hide his power level. I have my weirdly obsessive traits but I eventually caught on that they a) only make sense to me and b) would annoy the hell out of most people, so I keep them in my head. Dave did the opposite and made a "career" off of it.
@@matturner6890 like I said, absolutely nothing wrong with being on the spectrum, so many are, but at least you have a handle on the world around you and can sort of “read the room” so to speak.. Dave can’t seem to grasp any of these social normalities.
Meltzer parades himself as a journalist, but has 0 integrity. He’s essentially a marketing “magazine” for the promotions he likes, while hating on WWE.
That's why I hate the majority of "wrestling news" RUclipsrs. They don't do any actual research and just take Dave's word as gospel. Wrestletalk, looking at you!
To even add to that there was a time when it was the other way around and he was actually on WWE payroll. Dude isn’t a journalist at all. He can either be bought off or as he’s always done. He picks his favorites and makes them out to be these perfect saints, and if he has a personal issue with a wrestler, he does everything in his power to make sure his fans hate them.
@@bdr113080 ah yes, don meltzer, leader of the wrestling mafia. He controlls things so much that he hates wwe so much that they are doing their best in years. You people need to get out of your house lmao
7:20 and that is the problem with modern day wrestling. It is all about showing off, working towards a specific spot when back in the day, wrestlers told stories and had a character.
Here’s what frustrates me about these conversations. Why do we act like a promotion can’t have amazing matches and stories. Everyone always acts like it’s one or the other. Both companies have the talent and minds to do both. WWE has the talent to have much better matches, but by my count has less than a handful this year. AEW has the talent to put together good stories but don’t. It’s as maddening as this conversation
Best match ever: Hogan vs. Rock Wrestlemania 18. The best pro wrestling matches are the ones that excite the crowd the most - it's entertainment after all, not genuine competition where person A is trying to beat person B and vice-versa. There was no match that was louder from start to finish, had fans on the edge of their seats, two wrestlers who adapted so well to the crowd's reaction, exciting finish (especially Rock's kickout of Hogan's legdrop), and in-ring post-match drama.
@@duckmercy11 In stadiums with over 60,000 people glued to the match from start to finish and reacting to every move and gesture by both wrestlers? I doubt it.
@@michaelmarkowski204 Takada vs. Hashimoto in the Tokyo Dome in April 1996 drew 65k and was as loud or louder than Rock vs. Hogan from start to finish. Also was a more influential match (Eric Bichoff was in the building and the match heavily influenced his rollout of the NWO a month later, also indirectly led to the creation of Japanese MMA via PRIDE FC).
I have never been able to understand why so many wrestlers are obsessed with getting Meltzer's approval, and why fans care what Meltzer thinks. He has never been involved in the business in any way, shape or form. He is like one of us, a fan.
The obsession over this one man's opinion is absurd. Meltzer's ratings are not a definitive ranking of wrestling, nor has he ever claimed they were. It's the fans (and wrestlers themselves even) who took his simple recommendation system and turned it into something bigger than it was ever meant to be. Also, wrestling fans seem to be unable to grasp the concept of different people having different tastes. They can grasp it for other things like music, but not for wrestling. Would you get upset at a music reviewer for giving Miles Davis a 5-star album even though you don't like jazz? No, you'd understand that the reviewer likes a different style of music than you do. I like metal music, and would not expect a jazz fan to love the same albums I do. So why is it that wrestling fans can't accept the idea that Meltzer prefers the Japanese style over the American style? If you don't like Japanese wrestling, don't watch it. I don't watch Lucha because I don't like it. I'm not going to get upset at Lucha fans for liking it though. 21:18 This is an excellent point and perfectly summarizes why I hated PWG. Even Chuck Taylor said something to the effect of, "Guys need to know their place on the card. Stop doing finisher kickouts in the opening match."
As a kid/teen, I used to think it was a panel of people from a magazine that decided on the match star ratings... kind of like how Michelin does the Michelin Star rating for restaurants.
The mere suggestion of an episode where Stevie explains the psychology of a card is enough to get me to SUBSCRIBE. Brilliant! Tony Khan better watch the episode because he just does not understand how to book…
@@scentofslaughter8854 being forced to acknowledge guts and greatness to not be too blatantly partisan, which could lead to people calling him out, is not the same thing as "Objective". Even the Rhodes Vs Styles 5* were by not-too small a part of the fanbase considered not really justified and handed out more as 1) becuase Dave likes the owrkers and 2) because people questioned his Mania 40 ratings (especially Rhodes VS Reigns 2)
The HIAC was not a 5 star affair. It was as good as it was going to be with an injury that severe, but it was nothing that truly resonated as a five star classic. I respect Cody going to do it with a half purple chest and Rollins for taking the utmost care of him, but it was not going to be five star. It was a good match, but it wasn't an elite level match.
Have to agree on the star rating vs attendance point. One of the best matches I have ever seen was at a TNA house show. 4 young up and comers for the TNA tag team championship. AJ Styles/Christopher Daniels vs Chris Sabin/Jay Lethal (Sabin/Lethal had not yet found their fame) In 45 years of watching wrestling and attending shows this still holds as one of the best matches I have ever seen. There were probably 150 people at the show.
Meltzer is a kayfabe journalist. In reality he is just writing fan fiction. He should be seen with the same respect as a 12-year-old girl writing fan fiction about Harry Potter, Twilight, or Hunger Games. Maybe less because he is still doing it in his old age.
A five star match is a match where the fans in attendance got everything they hoped for and more, the guys in the match came out of the match more over than they went in, and the business overall was advanced in some real way because of it.
Meltzer is the precursor of the niche of early to mid 2000s RUclipsrs who were professional non-qualified "experts" who were able to gain a following despite being woefully uneducated in whatever they proclaimed expertise on. These days, such NQ experts are the norm but before them, there was Meltzer. Here's the thing about Meltzer: He's a mark who doesn't think he's a mark. He doesn't seem to understand, or want to understand, that the PROFESSIONAL in professional wrestling is the key aspect. It's a business! All business is fundamentally about revenue! Pro-wrestlers who "get it" are about the drawing, not the subjective opinions of vocal commentors on any media platform. As long as a worker draws money via selling tickets, PPVs, and alternative revenue sources like merchandise, video game licensing, etc., they've "won". Star ratings do not boost any worker's paycheck. Meltzer's star ratings are about spot fests. That's fine but just admit that. He doesn't care for or appreciate ring psychology, story telling, and everything fundamental in pro-wrestling.
That last paragraph isn't necessarily true. Look up the list of 5 star matches, it's a pretty diverse list in terms of styles. Gunther, who doesn't do "spotfests" has multiple 5 star matches. Meltzer is also big on Zack Sabre Jr. who's a grappling/submission guy.
@@duckmercy11 There's always exceptions to the rule. For every Gunther match Meltzer rates favorably, there's several others of arguably equal quality that he will rate lower due to personal bias. That's perfectly fine.
@@ambrosewetherbee8301 It's not an "exception" he's clearly a fan of Gunther and guys that work that style. It's the same style as some of the legends from Japan he also gave 5 stars. He doesn't just care about flippy matches, he IS an MMA enthusiast afterall. .
@@duckmercy11 Yes, "that syle" aka Strong Style. Meltzer is a puro fan. He's memed for automatically giving a match high stars for simply taking place in the Tokyodome. So, yes, Meltzer likes Gunther for obviously his stiff style that is reminiscent of Japanese pro-wrestling.
@@ambrosewetherbee8301 All of Japan doesn't do Strong Style, it's specifically a marketing term created for NJPW by founder Antonio Inoki. AJPW did Kings Road style and All Japan Women had their own unique Joshi style. I don't think Meltzer gives 5 stars just for working the Tokyo Dome, I'm pretty sure Sumo Hall, Budokan Hall and Korakuen Hall have more 5 star matches than the Dome.
Your card psychology comment is great. It reminds me of the old superhero problem, as described best by syndrome in the incredible… “when everyone is super, no one will be”.
For people who claim they don't give a shit about Dave Meltzer's star rating yall are so hung up over HIS OPINION!!!that's what it is HIS OPINION!!!why are yall getting bent out of shape over another person's opinion is beyond me but this what wrestling is smarky marks who get into there feelings about an opinion!! lol
Oh the Bret thing about him taking less money to be champion, I don't agree. Bret took less money to stay in WWE because he trusted them more with his character and the legacy he had already built. Bret never really wanted to go to WCW from all appearances. I think he thought they were a less organized and less sound company. And he was right. So I don't agree that it was about just being a champion. It was about being somewhere where he knew the ppl, knew they understood what he was all about and had an established legacy and fanbase. Plus, I think there was a sense of loyalty Bret had at the time to Vince and WWE. He wanted to be there.
Chris Van Vliet had him dead to rights about his ratings system over what's 4.75 and 5 star in quality. How many memorable matches did Angle give us? Zero 5 star matches from Meltzer - who admitted the difference between 4.75 and 5 is negligible and arbitrary and makes him come off as biased towards certain talent and promotions. He has way more influence on some talent today than he should. AEW talent should be focused on making quality stories too, not trying to get Dave's 5 star rating. You've had the likes of Sammy use Meltzer's ratings in a promo. Had Britt mention it backstage. That should not be the aim at all. I say this as a big AEW fan btw.
The real heat on Dave is the fact he standardised what a section of fan demand from wrestlers. If these guys aren't killing themselves he doesn't rate it highly. The knock on effect of that is at some point indy promoters started to look to social media and the Internet in general for which talent was hot and available: in comes Dave, on purpose or not, and he becomes the touch stone for these promoters. 100 billion superkicks later. ....
slaughter&kernodle vs steamboat&youngblood for the tag belts was the biggest feud that year in crockett the cage match blowoff in greensboro in '83 is worth a watch
Id really love to see a whiteboard segment about what stevie was talking about at 22:30 with the psychology of a wrestling card. Thumbs up this comment if you want to see it also!! Hopefully we can get Stevie to do it next week!
Meltzer's opinion doesn't matter to me. I also don't care about movie critics . If I like a Wrestling match or a movie that's all that matters to me was I entertained that's what matters.
My main issue with Meltzer is that he acts like his opinion is based on science and when people point out the flaws in his logic he doubles down. Hogan/Andre might not have been a great technical match, but the energy for it was insane and that doesn't factor into his calculations.
Same with The Rock vs. Hogan in Canada. And not only is his criteria based on flawed logic, he's totally contradicted himself and has been shortly before AEW even started. When he and Cornette were still speaking he was on Cornette's podcast and defending the silly stuff that Jim hates ("invisible hand grenades", etc.) and his whole rationale was it's a great match for THAT audience. Following that logic, the Rock and Hogan match was totally right for the audience....but it wasn't getting any 5 star raves from Dave.
@@KClouisville very true, although Cornette obviously has his own biases with the Undertaker and his disdain for guys like Omega due to wrestling a little girl years ago.
@@geneanthony3421 Oh sure, Cornette has his biases.....and he'll definitely excuse something like the Undertaker being a "dead man" or Kane shooting fire....he'll basically just say "That wasn't an aspect of their characters I was a fan of".....but, to me, Dave his different. While Jim will defend some of the more wild aspects of wrestling in the past, he still sticks to his guns about what he likes and doesn't like Dave makes up his own criteria on the spot as to what constitutes a great wrestling match. And he'll later reverse that criteria if it suits his needs.
The discussion at the end proves how two things can coexist at the same time, namely art films like Anything Everywhere All At Once and Deadpool and Wolverine. Both evoke emotion and both made money, but I am not going to sit here and tell you that one is better than the other because of an absolute rating that I dreamed up in my head.
Melter and his supporters are the exact same to wrestling that Fantano and his supporters are to music. They're so stuck up and treat their opinions as facts.
Meltzer’s system is trash. He gave hogan vs rock at wm18 like 3 stars. The whole goal of professional wrestling, isn’t to see how many acrobatic high spots and false finishes (burying finishers in the process) you can do in one match. It is to captivate the audience and have them in the palm of your hand. I have never seen a match before or since, captivate them like the rock and hogan did at wm 18. Five out of five stars without question. One of the all time great matches in history. Anybody that scores it less, is lying to themselves, hating on Hogan, or Dave Meltzer. Meltzer has helped drastically in the failing popularity of the business with the wrestlers trying to impress him instead of aiming for the fans
Just because you're stuck in the WWE bubble doesn't mean he has to be. He didn't grow up on WWE. And he's given 5 stars to plenty of non-acrobatic matches.
But he wasnt biased and rated any film with Robert De Niro by default 4 stars. Or rate a movie 1 star, then rate a remake of the exact same movie 4 stars because his friends were in it , even though it was still the same rubbish movie
@@wildwine6400 not what's happening here either. I think Meltzer's ratings became completely useless as a barometer a decade or so ago, but for Meltzer and people who share his passion for the high speed spotty choreographed tag craziness, I'm sure those matches really do hit like 4+ star affairs. I disagree with Stevie that there needs to be a rigid set of criteria for a perfectly rated match just like you can't ever have those to decide on the greatest films. Just find a reviewer whose opinion matches yours. It's not Meltzer for me or for a lot of people, but he's not even a reviewer, he just puts numbers on certain matches as a hobby whilst also doing his main job. It's easy to ignore his opinion.
Stevie, I think your take on making money from 5 star matches is a bit short sighted. While most won't get paid directly for that match, being known as a performer who puts out excellent matches will certainly move you up the card to make more money long term.
What makes a 5 star match is not the same as what makes a match a money drawing match. When a company bases itself on having what’s considered a 5 star match over telling a 5 star story, their attendance and ratings are weak. It only satisfies a small number of people. The amount small number of people like you doesn’t outweigh the profit of mass appeal, and businesses exist to make profit. Except AEW.
@@evilrobotchris you're reading way too deep into my comment. Many wrestlers have gotten over due to a career of great matches. I love matches that have a great story (to go along with a great action). And I'm not saying anyone should forsake everything else to obtain a 5 star rating. But if a great story doesn't end in good ring action, what's the point? You can get great stories from any form of television or movie. What makes wrestling unique is the payoff in a match.
Dave couldn't hold one star to Kurt's jock. Angle earned my respect with a few short years in the biz. I don't care , guys like that are just damn good at entertaining. You love to watch their matches , and you believe in their work. If you want to put some cute sparklers on Kurt's matches , every match he ever had was magic
UPDATE - I've taken out a couple of names that mistakenly got added into the "wrestlers who never got 5 stars". I also said Bret vs Owen at WrestleMania got 5 stars but that was actually their cage match rematch at Summerslam a few months later.
ORIGINAL MESSAGE - James here - I ballsed up on the list slightly. Eddie DID have a 5 star match (that AAA World’s Collide PPV) but I searched for “Eddie” and it was written down as “Eddy” so it didn’t come up.
Owens and Sami got 5 stars from WrestleMania 39 night one against The Usos, I got their names off of an old list.
The rest I think are right though.
no worries james meltzers star ratings are meaningless anyway
Rollins got 5 stars for the HIAC with Cody.
Meltzer did put out a criteria as to how he grades matches. I think it’s easy to find it. Not sure exactly where though
@@AlecTracey who cares what that weirdo thinks
That was pretty easy right? Own up to a mistake? You did it like it was nothing. Makes you wonder why someone Dave Meltzer can’t seem to build the courage to do it…ever
"if you care more about some dude's online star ratings over the amount of tickets sold and money made, you are not in the right business" - CM Punk
While I disagree with the guy and find him insufferable 90 percent of the time. He is 100 percent correct on this.
One of the unique traits of Punk that makes him the favorite of millions. The man freely speaks his mind. That’s extremely rare for someone of his level of fame.
The voice of the voiceless @@gogogadgetrectalpunch
@@lazyfrogeyes5949 that's hilarious cause I'm in the same boat. I don't like the dude but you don't have to like someone to recognize their talent and their skill at their craft and in this case, being a box office draw that many people are willing to pay good money to see live or buy his merch
@@lazyfrogeyes5949
Kinda got over Punk a while back, but he's a draw
Reminder: Meltzer also said his ratings actually go to infinity, so on an infinity scale all the matches are actually terrible 😅
hes ridiculous
@@wildwine6400 imagine being worked by meltzer of all people
@@scentofslaughter8854 imagine defending everything you can't explain by saying it's a work
@@dizzygunner what do you want me to explain to you my dear learning impaired child?
He doesn't understand math his ratings go to 20.
Dave is like that one wrestling fan at a show that likes to point out why you should hate what you have fun watching.
God forbid he gives an opinion that you don't agree with
@@scentofslaughter8854 lmao
@@brodyjames4126 I accept your concession :)
@@scentofslaughter8854 you just proved my point lmao
@@brodyjames4126 so let me get this straight, i reply to your comment, you can’t argue back, so i prove your point. LMAO
Will Ospreay has had like 40 5 star matches. I bet most fans couldn't name half of those. Even Meltzer couldn't remember all those I bet. If they are so good they wouldn't forgotten. Theres tons of matches still talked about today by fans decades later than Meltzer rated like 3 stars
And he's overrated as fuck.
Would take Curt Hennig over him every day
@AnneHathawayRules Ospreay is an interesting one, he's caught in a pretty rough spot in that the Meltzer crowd seriously overrates him and the more traditional crowd wrongly dismisses him as a spot monkey. The truth is somewhere in between, but we're in 2024 and only extreme viewpoints are tolerable apparently
@@theonetheonlyjoey don't get me wrong I didn't mean to take a dump on the guy I think he's a great wrestler I'm just saying the way that Dave blows him makes him overrated
@@AnneHathawayRules Yeah I get what you mean mate, I agree on that
Kurt Angle is a machine, hard to beat in regards of ability. His character evolved great too, at first I didn't think he could transition to the TV style wrestler but he sure as hell did.
@@GrumpyOldGamer9221 and he kept evolving over the years, brilliant
And never got a 5 star match from Dumb Dave
@@JJMcHurt 5 stars don't matter to a gold medalist 😎
Like Corny always says, "There are more marks in the ring than there are in the stands."
Cuckny? The one who never found long term success anywhere? Whatever.
Cornette is a mark himself, mainly because he thinks old redneck wrestling from 40 years ago is more relevant than it actually is. 😂
Cornette is one of the biggest marks in pro wrestling history.
Just because a bunch of incel neckbeards agree with him that wrestling still should be like it was in 1985 doesn’t make him right about anything.
This is the greatest wrestling show in my opinon. You guys have such a great flow together and work so hard to bring this content to us. It is rare to find a show where both guys do an equal or so amount of work on making the show great.
I think it's downright weird that we care what Dave Meltzer thinks at all. I enjoy the matches Meltzer rates highly, but it's so subjective that it just doesn't matter what one guy thinks.
As for a bias, I don't know if he just isn't into the WWE style, or if the presentation of the show isn't his thing, or what, but obviously he disproportionally favours other companies.
As far as Kurt Angle never getting a five star match, that's absurd in my view, but if it's his opinion... Cool story? I just think you're wrong, Dave. It's been 20 years and I still think back on Angle Vs Michaels at Wrestlemania 21 as one of the best matches I've ever seen.
The kurt angle thing is the single biggest argument why the ratings make no sense. He had at least 3, minimum.
Hes the type of guy who stops liking a band once they get famous
Some people, rather lamentably, simply wanna be told what they should enjoy so that when they enjoy things, they feel like they're part of a larger group and aren't outcasts for liking something. Meltzer's star ratings exploit this. He exploits those fans quite well.
@@skyenyx8972
Kurt angle Jericho and Benoit, summerslam 2000
i don't care what dave meltzer says
Meltzer is the Skip Bayless of wrestling commentary.
Perfect comparison.
Yes!!!
Even Skip gets it right sometimes.
Disagree. Skip is an eloquent speaker. I also think Meltzer is a true believer whereas Skip will turn up the volume or pick a side on a debate solely for salacious entertainment purposes
No, he's the Brian Windhorst.
In his interview with CVV, Meltzer couldn't even define the parameters needed to have a 5 star match. He doesn't even know what it takes to have a 5 star match, but somehow he still rates them 5 stars.
@TheFishingNomad he says its his opinion and people should leave it at that.
@@tonyclifton2230 No shit it's an opinion, but even an opinion needs to have justification behind it. He doesn't have that.
@@TheFishingNomad do you do this with movie critiques also? It's an opinion if you don't like it don't read it.
@@tonyclifton2230 No.
@@tonyclifton2230No, Dave presents his opinions as facts that’s why everyone is baffled that he has no solid reasoning behind guys like Kurt never having 5 stars
Cant stop binge watching these videos...lets help grow this channel! We love your insights Stevie 💪🏼
I sat next to Meltzer at All Out '22, he doesn't actively watch the show. He spent the entire time looking at and typing in his laptop while his entourage told him what was happening and what they thought about it.
That's when I learned his ratings mean nothing.
3 germans 3 super kicks 3 top rope spots alright 5 stars
The fact he never gave Angle or Brock a 5* match is laughable. Angle vs Lesnar Iron Man Match on Smackdoen 2003 was easily a 5-star match.
I would personally add No Way Out 2004 vs Eddie, Royal Rumble 2015 vs Cena and Rollins and WrestleMania 31 vs Reigns and Rollins. Some others might say Survivor Series 2018 vs Bryan.
Brock has had many classics over the years. If Meltzer doesn’t have at least one five-star rating for Brock, it just proves that he is an idiot.
Angle vs. Benoit Royal Rumble 2003
Angle/Benoit vs Edge/Rey No Mercy 2002
Angle vs. Michaels Wrestlemania 21.
ALL 5 STAR.
@@jamesb1988 Definitely.
Angle v Joe match in TNA was 5 stars
Bryan definitely deserved a 5 star match for the opening match at Mania 30. The triple threat both 30 and 37 could easily be considered as well. He also had Kofimania and his match on Smackdown with Styles in 2018 where he made his big heel turn. That's at least 5 right there off the top of my head.
Tbf I don’t see it. Bryan himself had a match much better with Cena like half a year before that
@@jacekkaplon200 ya know... ya can say "X should have been 5*" while agreeing "this other match was better". 'just cause you think Taker VS Michaels was better doesn't mean that Austin VS Bret didn'T deserve 5*, as an example.
@@undertakernumberone1 yeah definitely but I think that Cena match was decisively better, like it would be hard to put them in the same tier for me
I don’t think any of those matches are five stars except for the Kofi one. The one with Brock at Survivor Series 2018 is a five star match though.
All these AEW five star matches but WWE hasn't been this hot since the Attitude Era. Dave is a relic.
Not quite the Relic that is Bill Apter though.
It's because he got worked by The Bucks. They realized he was a mark, they named a move after them, introduced him to Omega and have Dave convince his audience that they were the greatest thing since sliced bread.
The people that disagree with Dave's take on wrestling left a long time ago. Thr only people left paying him $14.99 a month are hard-core smarks that also think The Elite are the greatest thing since sliced bread. If he backed down now he'd cut off his subscriber base.
It's obvious he has no sources left in WWE, AEW is his cash cow too. He has to felate the people that feed him info so he has something to print, and those who his readers like, lest they unsubscribe.
I 100% agree with Richards here, the arena is a quarter full, the tv ratings are mediocre at best...AEW wrestlers need to be concerned about their paycheck, thier investment accounts, their future far more then they need to be concerned with match ratings from a guy who thought Mable was going to be the 3rd outsider in WCW
@@evanhunke1676lol they don't need to worry about a paycheck, Tony Khan is a millionaire, his father a billionaire, nobody's worried about money, especially when AEW pays more. Every wrestler that left WWE and went to AEW now makes more money, and don't have to wrestle 5 nights a week. It's a better structure.
Meltzer is on Tony's payroll.
Meltzer didn't even create the system. It was the creation of Norman Dooley & Jim Cornette. Meltzer copied it, bastardized it and some how convinced a generation of Mark fans that it means more than anything to your career.
Cornette is also giant mark - dude proudly admits to having no other interests outside pro-wrestling and loving it more than anything else in life…like Meltzer would also never dream of getting in the ring
@@rampageclover9788 Jim Cornette WAS in the Ring, however. He's too old now. He never was a wrestler as main role, but there were matches where he was an active participant in the ring, and then there are the bumps he took as manager... like the Scaffold fall...
@@rampageclover9788huh? Cornette has taken some big bumps. He also has been In the ring numerous times. During the territory days manager battle royals were semi regular going from town to town. Comparing Cornette to Meltzer is a horrible comparison. Cornette’s one of the greatest mangers ever and legendary on the stick, Meltzer is just a wrestling reporter who stopped being objective once he became friends with certain wrestlers
@@rampageclover9788Cornette has been a manager, booker, agent, and owner. What are you talking about ?? Cornette isn’t a mark at all.
He just hates the soft wrestlers you love.
@@adamc-sv2tp I hate today’s wrestling - Cornette though lives through guys who do a job he wouldn’t dare attempt
Stevie, don’t sell yourself short sir…I’m 36, you were a part of my childhood. ECW in its prime, a character on WWE No Mercy, and had some great matches. Love you man!
Just yesterday Davie announced Afa's passing hours before it actually happened.
When Afa's daughter Vale corrected him on it all he did was edit his statement. No apology for getting it wrong in the first place.
@@artdjesus6267 disrespectful
That’s it. Dave is clearly the worst person in the world. How could someone even dare to not apologise for a mistake? What a weapons-grade asshole. No dinner for Dave.
I wouldn’t even be mad if someone from that family (or anybody else) would show that old man a lesson he needed decades ago
@@d.52555
Samoan Werewolf vs Meltzer
@@ComicBookGuy420Book it!
Dave is best to just not be acknowledged now. Not cancelled, just paid no mind. There is a whole segment of social media content now that just chases engagement, which is to say, they will just put out blatantly ridiculous or flat out wrong statements just because the sh!tstorm of comments and backlash boosts them in social media algorithms under the "engagement" metric. Dave may actually be doing this inadvertently, but he is doing it nonetheless.
He doesn't actually do much journalism. He just blurts out an assumption and calls it a story.
Everyone says he's irrelevant yet they can't stop talking about him or his ratings 😂. It's hilarious really.
Whether they can be successful is a matter of perspective. There’s nothing wrong with being “stuck in that indie mindset... if you’re still happy that some goof gave you a five star match and the building’s a quarter full? We’re not in the same business.”
Think this quote says it all.
A lot of the Wrestling “Journalists” are a bunch of wrestling observer marks who worship Meltzer and AEW
This.
So many just regurgitate whatever spew meltzer says. Then when the inevitable happens and his news turns out to be bullshit. They never question it or correct themselves. They just report whatever meltzer says next as fact
Like the guys at Whatculture and Wrestletalk.
@@Dr.JHamilton cultaholic are in the cult of meltzer too
@@Dr.JHamiltonowh yeah those guys are just GARBAGE
But not the dudes running podcasts lol
Saw Raven v Justin Credible at a half empty Mariucci arena in 2000, bumping and working everywhere. Those guys put on a 5 star match for those of us who got to see it.
Yup....and the place held about 750 people and so they made about $26 each and Raven has early stages of dementia. Go pat yourself on the back
@@jjc1188 Yeah, how dare they give the fans a good show (/sarcasm)
@@LokiTricksterG and while he may be in a wheelchair, you can simply turn on Netflix change the channel go to a movie and get your next fix while some of these guys take unnecessary risks for all the wrong reasons.
There's an expression that goes, "just because you can doesn't mean you should"
@@jjc1188 How does them taking risks lessen the entertainment value? You're talking like a promoter or their concerned mom instead of a fan 😂
@@duckmercy11 that would be correct if you are there simply for Your entertainment to watch them light themselves on fire... Then you are not only a bad fan but you would be a bad parent as well
Holy moley finally somebody mentions my favorite tag team of all time Steamboat/Youngblood!
Meltzer even says his star rating ISN'T based on his own personal taste. What a load of crap.
How tf does Angle and RVD not get a 5 star match?!
Exactly what I was thinking. Same with Dean
Cause it wasn't as good as Toyota vs Yamada 😂
Meltzer's star ratings are one dimensional and only represent his personal taste. Dave Meltzer hates storytelling. He gets bored by building to a big match. He also hates cliffhanger endings that make the general public want to tune in next week. Dave wants his favorite moves performed in the exact same way every week without any reason for a match. He doesn't understand booking for a general audience or episodic storytelling.
He would be the first to tell you they represent his own personal taste though
@@danhill3302yes this, the first guy to say stop taking the ratings so seriously is Dave so I find it hilarious when people get so worked up over the ratings
I don’t think he hates storytelling. He just doesn’t care if a match has one or not
@@danhill3302his personal tastes are mindless action that last for 25 minutes
@@silverbullet9442If this is the case why does he charge money for his news letter if its just an option why not give it for free like everyone else the fact is he believes in his system and has been doing this for a long time he should at the very least be able to explain the system which he can't now that I think about who the fuck pays for his slop?🤔😂
I am so glad Stevie is dropping some actual knowledge on these marks.
Would LOVE to see an episode on wrestling CARD psychology. I've heard almost everyone drone on about match psychology, but I've never heard anyone explain the ways in which a SHOW should flow.
Basicly knowing when to slow down how to build suspence etc
Can’t get enough of these convos!
In before this blows up!
Stevie's videos are my favorite to watch! He explains things in a way that is easily understandable and relatable! Keep up the great work guys!
Good quality, good cameras 📸 good production
Stevie knows his shit.
"This is a classic case of Narcassisim" was both funny and so true. Love the podcasts guys.
0:15 I like how you can put a length of time at the beginning of your comment and it comes up at that time 👍
Stevie is such a likable and knowledgeable guy.
It’s not the video, had to record off my laptop and for some reason it hates 30/60 fps.
James u look 17 brother how r u married?
No offence btw Ur a great analyst
@@davidjonmoxleyskipp230 pushing 40, feeling 85, brother!
@@jamesromeroweird stuff happens after 40 James trust me
Best news i heard - the Infinite star rating😂Dave is a infinite star jack ass
In my opinion, the fans dictate what a great wrestling match is. One example that Al Snow says is " Andre vs Hogan was the 5 star match." Savage and Steamboat had the best match, but Andre and Hogan is what filled up the building. Hogan vs. Andre wasn't a good match, but the crowd was into it and lost it when Andre fell down - when a man fell down.
I have never read a single word or listened to a single syllable from Meltzer and I absolutely love the guy. Anybody that can twist so many panties in to so many bunches of so many people is doing something VERY right in my book.
As a wrestling historian, I will give Dave Meltzer his credit all day long.
As a gatekeeper of who gets the best ranked matches with a very specific bias towards certain wrestlers and companies, he can kick rocks.
Kurt Fucking Angle should have a plethora of 5⭐️ matches.
Hopefully Stevie’s words ring true for many performers that they don’t need to kill themselves chasing a banana sticker from Meltzer.
"As a wrestling historian, I will give Dave Meltzer his credit all day long." absolutely not! He is a revisionistic PoS!
Who remembers Kurt Angle vs. Brock Lesnar (the Iron Man Match)? What was the star rating on THAT match?!
Meltzer didn't come up with the star rating, he just made it popular. Cornette is actually the one who came up with it along his friend Norman "Weasel" Dooley.
I love love love ❤listening to Stevie Richard's talk about pro wrestling!
Match quality is important yes, but I would say storyline is more important. To me a 5 star match is a match where you're so invested in it that you feel like you're on a roller coaster watching it. A match that gets your heart pumping, like Undertaker vs Shawn which had story, excitement, and good wrestling.
A match like Kenny Omega vs Daniel Bryan in his AEW debut was good wrestling, but there was zero story zero investment. Nobody actually cared who won, it was just "woo look at the pretty moves". Like you're telling me THAT is the best these two could do? Because that's what a 5 star merch is supposed to be, the best. A match that will be remembered for generations to come.
It also depends on what you were brought up on watching, if you grew up going to indie shows you have to tell a story through the match as the shows are one offs and there’s no weekly tv show, if you grew up only watching wwe you most likely love the weekly storytelling but have also got accustomed to and just accepting of piss poor boring matches.
@@andrew_l1900 good wrestling is good wrestling my guy
He rates matches, not storylines.
Doesn't mean that storylines aren't important but they do not make a bad match great.
@@str.77 they literally do tho 🤦♂️
@@ParadiseDB7 No, they don't. A crappy match is a crappy match, even in good storyline.
Dont worry stevie.... we'll never get tired of your voice
Good insight from a real pro WRESTLING veteran
''Ive adjusted the stars for inflation''. Stevie is easily my favorite wrestler turned podcaster (and cornette). Such knowledge and great opinion
The ratings were useful for the fans back when you traded VHS and needed to know to get your hands on a Misawa-Kawada etc
Created by Cornette & Dooley, not Uncle Dave
@ebransc09 I am pretty sure it was a take off movie ratings. Also the only reason you know the dooley name is because of corny and meltzer saying it. Name a dooley file star match?
I so appreciate you guys' show! Thank you for these videos!
This isnt to be mean, but Dave is absolutely on the spectrum - anyone who gets personally offended because others who watch an entertainment product dont place all of the products value on the technical facets that the entertainers only really need to focus on and buries himself in rooms of old wrestling tapes to be able to reference parts of obscure matches that dont matter to anyone, is why he comes across the way he does.
I'm a 33 year old dude on the spectrum and I am shocked a guy Dave's age has such limited ability to hide his power level.
I have my weirdly obsessive traits but I eventually caught on that they a) only make sense to me and b) would annoy the hell out of most people, so I keep them in my head. Dave did the opposite and made a "career" off of it.
Yeah, as an autist as well, I can see it. If what he does gives him a level of pleasure (which it clearly does) then he is prob spectumy.
@@matturner6890 like I said, absolutely nothing wrong with being on the spectrum, so many are, but at least you have a handle on the world around you and can sort of “read the room” so to speak.. Dave can’t seem to grasp any of these social normalities.
This isn't to be mean: "Meltzer is an autist" wtf is your problem kid
i think he's slipping
22:00 Bless you Stevie only you and Raven are willing to give us that type of knowledge, please make that whiteboard segment
Meltzer parades himself as a journalist, but has 0 integrity. He’s essentially a marketing “magazine” for the promotions he likes, while hating on WWE.
That's why I hate the majority of "wrestling news" RUclipsrs. They don't do any actual research and just take Dave's word as gospel. Wrestletalk, looking at you!
How is he hating on wwe lmao
To even add to that there was a time when it was the other way around and he was actually on WWE payroll. Dude isn’t a journalist at all. He can either be bought off or as he’s always done. He picks his favorites and makes them out to be these perfect saints, and if he has a personal issue with a wrestler, he does everything in his power to make sure his fans hate them.
@@bdr113080 ah yes, don meltzer, leader of the wrestling mafia. He controlls things so much that he hates wwe so much that they are doing their best in years. You people need to get out of your house lmao
Says the one who really need to get out of the house instead kissing someone else buttcheek
7:20 and that is the problem with modern day wrestling. It is all about showing off, working towards a specific spot when back in the day, wrestlers told stories and had a character.
Here’s what frustrates me about these conversations. Why do we act like a promotion can’t have amazing matches and stories. Everyone always acts like it’s one or the other. Both companies have the talent and minds to do both. WWE has the talent to have much better matches, but by my count has less than a handful this year. AEW has the talent to put together good stories but don’t. It’s as maddening as this conversation
Yeah it’s really disappointing that no one seems to be able to get a good middle ground
Best match ever: Hogan vs. Rock Wrestlemania 18. The best pro wrestling matches are the ones that excite the crowd the most - it's entertainment after all, not genuine competition where person A is trying to beat person B and vice-versa. There was no match that was louder from start to finish, had fans on the edge of their seats, two wrestlers who adapted so well to the crowd's reaction, exciting finish (especially Rock's kickout of Hogan's legdrop), and in-ring post-match drama.
I've heard louder matches.
@@duckmercy11 In stadiums with over 60,000 people glued to the match from start to finish and reacting to every move and gesture by both wrestlers? I doubt it.
@@michaelmarkowski204 Takada vs. Hashimoto in the Tokyo Dome in April 1996 drew 65k and was as loud or louder than Rock vs. Hogan from start to finish. Also was a more influential match (Eric Bichoff was in the building and the match heavily influenced his rollout of the NWO a month later, also indirectly led to the creation of Japanese MMA via PRIDE FC).
Uncle Dave is the biggest mark ever.
For himself, yes. I feel like someone like Tony Khan holds that distinction. And I hope the boys and girls take him for all he is willing to spend.
He is also terrible for not paying rent in all the heads of people he lives in.
@@tonyclifton2230 I feel for those who pay for his website. I cant imagine him living rent free
@@tonyclifton2230 dave,is that you?
@@Professor_Genki7 no it isn't phil.
I have never been able to understand why so many wrestlers are obsessed with getting Meltzer's approval, and why fans care what Meltzer thinks. He has never been involved in the business in any way, shape or form. He is like one of us, a fan.
He was a consultant for Vince during the national expansion.
"Wrestlemania false kick out finishes" doesn't equate to "having the best match on the card" - the opposite is true.
This man is a very busy bee, not only being on Stevie Richards show, but also Dutch Mantell’s
Hats off to him! 😊
The obsession over this one man's opinion is absurd. Meltzer's ratings are not a definitive ranking of wrestling, nor has he ever claimed they were. It's the fans (and wrestlers themselves even) who took his simple recommendation system and turned it into something bigger than it was ever meant to be.
Also, wrestling fans seem to be unable to grasp the concept of different people having different tastes. They can grasp it for other things like music, but not for wrestling.
Would you get upset at a music reviewer for giving Miles Davis a 5-star album even though you don't like jazz? No, you'd understand that the reviewer likes a different style of music than you do. I like metal music, and would not expect a jazz fan to love the same albums I do.
So why is it that wrestling fans can't accept the idea that Meltzer prefers the Japanese style over the American style? If you don't like Japanese wrestling, don't watch it. I don't watch Lucha because I don't like it. I'm not going to get upset at Lucha fans for liking it though.
21:18 This is an excellent point and perfectly summarizes why I hated PWG. Even Chuck Taylor said something to the effect of, "Guys need to know their place on the card. Stop doing finisher kickouts in the opening match."
As a kid/teen, I used to think it was a panel of people from a magazine that decided on the match star ratings... kind of like how Michelin does the Michelin Star rating for restaurants.
I gave up when he did not give Rhea v Charlotte at Mania the respect it deserved.
Wdym? He gave it 4.75 stars.
The mere suggestion of an episode where Stevie explains the psychology of a card is enough to get me to SUBSCRIBE. Brilliant!
Tony Khan better watch the episode because he just does not understand how to book…
Owens and Zayn had a 5* tag with the Usos at WM 39. Rollins had one in a cell with Cody and his torn pec.
BuT MeLtZeR HaTeS WwE
@@scentofslaughter8854 being forced to acknowledge guts and greatness to not be too blatantly partisan, which could lead to people calling him out, is not the same thing as "Objective". Even the Rhodes Vs Styles 5* were by not-too small a part of the fanbase considered not really justified and handed out more as 1) becuase Dave likes the owrkers and 2) because people questioned his Mania 40 ratings (especially Rhodes VS Reigns 2)
@@undertakernumberone1 nice blog post, didn’t even read it but i’m happy for you or i’m sorry
I barely even remember those matches.
The HIAC was not a 5 star affair.
It was as good as it was going to be with an injury that severe, but it was nothing that truly resonated as a five star classic.
I respect Cody going to do it with a half purple chest and Rollins for taking the utmost care of him, but it was not going to be five star.
It was a good match, but it wasn't an elite level match.
Have to agree on the star rating vs attendance point. One of the best matches I have ever seen was at a TNA house show. 4 young up and comers for the TNA tag team championship. AJ Styles/Christopher Daniels vs Chris Sabin/Jay Lethal (Sabin/Lethal had not yet found their fame) In 45 years of watching wrestling and attending shows this still holds as one of the best matches I have ever seen. There were probably 150 people at the show.
Meltzer is a kayfabe journalist. In reality he is just writing fan fiction. He should be seen with the same respect as a 12-year-old girl writing fan fiction about Harry Potter, Twilight, or Hunger Games. Maybe less because he is still doing it in his old age.
Except a 12 year-old girl can probably write better.
Dave Meltzer AO3 arc WHEN??
Worse. If you write fanfic over time, you’re supposed to get better at it with experience. Meltzer has progressively gotten worse
A five star match is a match where the fans in attendance got everything they hoped for and more, the guys in the match came out of the match more over than they went in, and the business overall was advanced in some real way because of it.
All meltzer does is give opinions off as facts
Chi town rumble was *chefs kiss* ❤ greatest match I've ever seen.
Meltzer is the precursor of the niche of early to mid 2000s RUclipsrs who were professional non-qualified "experts" who were able to gain a following despite being woefully uneducated in whatever they proclaimed expertise on. These days, such NQ experts are the norm but before them, there was Meltzer.
Here's the thing about Meltzer: He's a mark who doesn't think he's a mark. He doesn't seem to understand, or want to understand, that the PROFESSIONAL in professional wrestling is the key aspect. It's a business! All business is fundamentally about revenue! Pro-wrestlers who "get it" are about the drawing, not the subjective opinions of vocal commentors on any media platform. As long as a worker draws money via selling tickets, PPVs, and alternative revenue sources like merchandise, video game licensing, etc., they've "won". Star ratings do not boost any worker's paycheck.
Meltzer's star ratings are about spot fests. That's fine but just admit that. He doesn't care for or appreciate ring psychology, story telling, and everything fundamental in pro-wrestling.
That last paragraph isn't necessarily true. Look up the list of 5 star matches, it's a pretty diverse list in terms of styles. Gunther, who doesn't do "spotfests" has multiple 5 star matches. Meltzer is also big on Zack Sabre Jr. who's a grappling/submission guy.
@@duckmercy11 There's always exceptions to the rule. For every Gunther match Meltzer rates favorably, there's several others of arguably equal quality that he will rate lower due to personal bias. That's perfectly fine.
@@ambrosewetherbee8301 It's not an "exception" he's clearly a fan of Gunther and guys that work that style. It's the same style as some of the legends from Japan he also gave 5 stars. He doesn't just care about flippy matches, he IS an MMA enthusiast afterall.
.
@@duckmercy11 Yes, "that syle" aka Strong Style. Meltzer is a puro fan. He's memed for automatically giving a match high stars for simply taking place in the Tokyodome.
So, yes, Meltzer likes Gunther for obviously his stiff style that is reminiscent of Japanese pro-wrestling.
@@ambrosewetherbee8301 All of Japan doesn't do Strong Style, it's specifically a marketing term created for NJPW by founder Antonio Inoki. AJPW did Kings Road style and All Japan Women had their own unique Joshi style. I don't think Meltzer gives 5 stars just for working the Tokyo Dome, I'm pretty sure Sumo Hall, Budokan Hall and Korakuen Hall have more 5 star matches than the Dome.
Your card psychology comment is great. It reminds me of the old superhero problem, as described best by syndrome in the incredible… “when everyone is super, no one will be”.
For people who claim they don't give a shit about Dave Meltzer's star rating yall are so hung up over HIS OPINION!!!that's what it is HIS OPINION!!!why are yall getting bent out of shape over another person's opinion is beyond me but this what wrestling is smarky marks who get into there feelings about an opinion!! lol
Yep, they claim he doesn't matter yet they won't keep his name out of their mouths lol 😂
Oh the Bret thing about him taking less money to be champion, I don't agree. Bret took less money to stay in WWE because he trusted them more with his character and the legacy he had already built. Bret never really wanted to go to WCW from all appearances. I think he thought they were a less organized and less sound company. And he was right. So I don't agree that it was about just being a champion. It was about being somewhere where he knew the ppl, knew they understood what he was all about and had an established legacy and fanbase. Plus, I think there was a sense of loyalty Bret had at the time to Vince and WWE. He wanted to be there.
Chris Van Vliet had him dead to rights about his ratings system over what's 4.75 and 5 star in quality. How many memorable matches did Angle give us? Zero 5 star matches from Meltzer - who admitted the difference between 4.75 and 5 is negligible and arbitrary and makes him come off as biased towards certain talent and promotions.
He has way more influence on some talent today than he should. AEW talent should be focused on making quality stories too, not trying to get Dave's 5 star rating. You've had the likes of Sammy use Meltzer's ratings in a promo. Had Britt mention it backstage. That should not be the aim at all.
I say this as a big AEW fan btw.
Great segment. Would rate 5 stars
Meltzer blocked me for calling him a clown for his pro-AEW takes
Thank u 🙏 😊
The real heat on Dave is the fact he standardised what a section of fan demand from wrestlers. If these guys aren't killing themselves he doesn't rate it highly. The knock on effect of that is at some point indy promoters started to look to social media and the Internet in general for which talent was hot and available: in comes Dave, on purpose or not, and he becomes the touch stone for these promoters. 100 billion superkicks later. ....
slaughter&kernodle vs steamboat&youngblood for the tag belts was the biggest feud that year in crockett the cage match blowoff in greensboro in '83 is worth a watch
Id really love to see a whiteboard segment about what stevie was talking about at 22:30 with the psychology of a wrestling card. Thumbs up this comment if you want to see it also!! Hopefully we can get Stevie to do it next week!
Stevie has the best podcast going
Any wrestler who lives for Uncle Dave's star ratings is a mark for themselves. Focus on filling the building up and getting more eyes on the product.
Having good matches is not a way to have more eyes on the product?
@@scentofslaughter8854 Define a "good match"
@@cyruskane8687 a match where the crowd chants ”this is awesome”
@@scentofslaughter8854 A chant doesn't equal business.
@@AS_ONYX good thing he asked about good matches and not business then
TY Stevie, for acknowledging Flair/Steamboat ChiTown Rumble!
Maybe Meltzer should get in the ring and show everybody what he means by a five-star match
I would make it a strap match and whip him like a govt mule
Meltzer's opinion doesn't matter to me.
I also don't care about movie critics .
If I like a Wrestling match or a movie that's all that matters to me was I entertained that's what matters.
No one takes meltzer seriously anymore. He’s complexly destroyed his credibility being a tony khan glazer
I would love to see the white board segment on wrestling cards. Can't wait for it
My main issue with Meltzer is that he acts like his opinion is based on science and when people point out the flaws in his logic he doubles down. Hogan/Andre might not have been a great technical match, but the energy for it was insane and that doesn't factor into his calculations.
Same with The Rock vs. Hogan in Canada. And not only is his criteria based on flawed logic, he's totally contradicted himself and has been shortly before AEW even started. When he and Cornette were still speaking he was on Cornette's podcast and defending the silly stuff that Jim hates ("invisible hand grenades", etc.) and his whole rationale was it's a great match for THAT audience. Following that logic, the Rock and Hogan match was totally right for the audience....but it wasn't getting any 5 star raves from Dave.
@@KClouisville very true, although Cornette obviously has his own biases with the Undertaker and his disdain for guys like Omega due to wrestling a little girl years ago.
@@geneanthony3421 Oh sure, Cornette has his biases.....and he'll definitely excuse something like the Undertaker being a "dead man" or Kane shooting fire....he'll basically just say "That wasn't an aspect of their characters I was a fan of".....but, to me, Dave his different. While Jim will defend some of the more wild aspects of wrestling in the past, he still sticks to his guns about what he likes and doesn't like Dave makes up his own criteria on the spot as to what constitutes a great wrestling match. And he'll later reverse that criteria if it suits his needs.
@@KClouisville I'm not disagreeing with you. I see Meltzer is very disingenuous.
@@KClouisville and then, we had him make excuses for the Jericho Hook match, and go on about how the crowd shitting on the match didn't matter bla.
The discussion at the end proves how two things can coexist at the same time, namely art films like Anything Everywhere All At Once and Deadpool and Wolverine. Both evoke emotion and both made money, but I am not going to sit here and tell you that one is better than the other because of an absolute rating that I dreamed up in my head.
Meltzer is a victim of the internet. Soon as he couldn't hide behind a terrible magazine and his real self came out it was only a matter of time
Melter and his supporters are the exact same to wrestling that Fantano and his supporters are to music. They're so stuck up and treat their opinions as facts.
Meltzer’s system is trash. He gave hogan vs rock at wm18 like 3 stars. The whole goal of professional wrestling, isn’t to see how many acrobatic high spots and false finishes (burying finishers in the process) you can do in one match. It is to captivate the audience and have them in the palm of your hand. I have never seen a match before or since, captivate them like the rock and hogan did at wm 18. Five out of five stars without question. One of the all time great matches in history. Anybody that scores it less, is lying to themselves, hating on Hogan, or Dave Meltzer. Meltzer has helped drastically in the failing popularity of the business with the wrestlers trying to impress him instead of aiming for the fans
Just because you're stuck in the WWE bubble doesn't mean he has to be. He didn't grow up on WWE. And he's given 5 stars to plenty of non-acrobatic matches.
I already enjoy Stevie's thoughts on pro wrestling, and you throw in some Dave Meltzer criticism, well...this was an immediate click.
Roger Ebert's ratings also didn't matter. Weird thing to be angry about. Everyone is entitled to make their own definition of a five star match.
But he wasnt biased and rated any film with Robert De Niro by default 4 stars. Or rate a movie 1 star, then rate a remake of the exact same movie 4 stars because his friends were in it , even though it was still the same rubbish movie
@@wildwine6400 not what's happening here either. I think Meltzer's ratings became completely useless as a barometer a decade or so ago, but for Meltzer and people who share his passion for the high speed spotty choreographed tag craziness, I'm sure those matches really do hit like 4+ star affairs. I disagree with Stevie that there needs to be a rigid set of criteria for a perfectly rated match just like you can't ever have those to decide on the greatest films. Just find a reviewer whose opinion matches yours. It's not Meltzer for me or for a lot of people, but he's not even a reviewer, he just puts numbers on certain matches as a hobby whilst also doing his main job. It's easy to ignore his opinion.
Great Show Stevie Richards
Stevie, I think your take on making money from 5 star matches is a bit short sighted. While most won't get paid directly for that match, being known as a performer who puts out excellent matches will certainly move you up the card to make more money long term.
Not when they're being handed out like candy and you're destroying your body to get them
What makes a 5 star match is not the same as what makes a match a money drawing match. When a company bases itself on having what’s considered a 5 star match over telling a 5 star story, their attendance and ratings are weak. It only satisfies a small number of people.
The amount small number of people like you doesn’t outweigh the profit of mass appeal, and businesses exist to make profit.
Except AEW.
@@evilrobotchris you're reading way too deep into my comment. Many wrestlers have gotten over due to a career of great matches. I love matches that have a great story (to go along with a great action). And I'm not saying anyone should forsake everything else to obtain a 5 star rating. But if a great story doesn't end in good ring action, what's the point? You can get great stories from any form of television or movie. What makes wrestling unique is the payoff in a match.
@@eclect agreed. I'm talking about guys like AJ Styles, Eddie Guerrero, etc. a lifetime of great matches and rarely hurt themselves or others.
No. It won't. You are incorrect.
Dave couldn't hold one star to Kurt's jock. Angle earned my respect with a few short years in the biz. I don't care , guys like that are just damn good at entertaining. You love to watch their matches , and you believe in their work. If you want to put some cute sparklers on Kurt's matches , every match he ever had was magic
Gone with the Wind(1939) is actually still the highest grossing movie of all time adjusted for inflation at a whopping 4.34 Billion, Avatar had 3.95B.
I love how he tried to say he’s a journalist but never apologizes whenever he posts wrong information.