man i love pulling for fictional anime girls (and the six guys) in project sekai but i enjoy a wide range of rhythm games especially more challenging ones, and this is such a great video connecting them all
i’d like to mention another circle game, chrono circle. basically like maimai, but there’s a rotation mechanic (rotaeno connection) where you spin the wheel controller for rotate notes and for moving slides. aside from that, there are the outer buttons on said wheel as well as notes on screen. this is where “chrono” comes in-the judgment line(s) is like hands on a clock, the notes just sit there and you wait for the line to align with them
i was also thinking of chrono circle too! especially with the rotation mechanic. but rip the game since its gonna be gone (the online server) next year 😔
Due to historical reasons: - Deemo kind of needs to be mentioned as one of the first popular mobile VSRGs to do away with lanes - Dynamix kind of needs to be mentioned if Phygros is mentioned, as (it seems) somewhat of a strong inspiration - And the original Ouendan kind of needs to be mentioned if osu is mentioned as osu did start as an unofficial PC port of Ouendan It's for the same reason that Taiko no Tatsujin needs to be mentioned when talking about osu!taiko (done) or how you did mention ez2dj for osu!catch (thank you). Otherwise, the video is pretty amazing!
As a musician who absolutely loves rhythm games, the hardest part for me is figuring out when the notes are hit in relation to the songs melody. Also, Rhythm Doctor is one of the best rhythm games I've ever tried. I recommend that everyone who also loves rhythm games play it.
Have you tried fixing your offset in the games? Once you set that up properly, usually notes would be in time with the music...henkhenk. Unless you're talking about lower difficulty charts then yea... the note patterns in these charts tend to oversimplify the melodies.
@@oonkadoonk544 Na I only need to hear the relevent melody in the song once and then I can match it up to the pattern I saw in game. I call it "rhythmic context" as it usually takes me one pass through the song to understand it.
@@EnderSackboy oh yeah, pretty sure that's normal for all of us, which is also why i tent to plays familiar songs first whenever i play a new rhythm game, as i already know the song, i can concentrate on how to play the game instead
Rhythm Doctor is literally my favorite rhythm game. Not the hardest or most skill based but great music, art style, story, etc. 7th games hit it out if the park (literally with the most recent update)
Some extras : there's also wacca-like game in mobile now, it's called liminality. But, it's still in Japanese, not translated yet, but it plays pretty much like wacca, and also they just recently do a collab with hardcore tano*c, crazy
Osu catch player here. There’s definitely a rhythm aspect that is pretty essential to follow once you start to get around 4 stars but it focuses the most on precision in how you play. What I would compare it to most is actually a precision platformer in the vein of Celeste or Super Meat Boy. My prior skill in platformers really helped me when learning the game mode. Definitely really under-appreciated since it’s genuinely really cool.
I also like using jakads as an example of skill transfer between games because on some old streams/ his twitter he says that the hardest part about learning new rhythm games is whatever special mechanic they introduce over other ones. Jakads learned rhythm games from playing O2J (afaik) so from the start he was learning skills like LNs, higher keymodes (4+), and thumb usage (especially in his case he used both thumbs to press space bc that's what the O2J tutorial told you to do) so all of those skills are easily transferrable to other games. The higher number of lanes transfer to other traditional VSRGs like EZ2ON, high keymode osumania, and DJMAX which is slightly interesting because it bridges the gap between many different games in the fact that it's a multi-keyed VSRG but it also has scratch lanes (like IIDX, etc) and two separate thumb buttons that are overlayed on the main lanes which tie back to both thumb usage and reading FX buttons in sound voltex. The main difficulty of learning new games is all the special mechanics (lasers in SDVX, flick notes in proseka, raise notes in chunithm, scratch notes in IIDX and it's abysmal button layout). However many types of special mechanics you can engrain into your fundamental skill of rhythm gaming is how easy it will be for you to transfer to a new game. Someone who spent the late 2000s playing stepmania/etterna will have a harder time transferring to osumania or quaver than someone who spent that time playing O2J just on the pure fact of the LN release timing being such a fundamental game difference. Personally I like to separate rhythm games into a few categories of "anchored" gameplay where your input always physically stay the same (traditional VSRGs) "mixed games" where your inputs have a set rule to them but you still must physically change how you move yourself to play (SDVX, chunithm, some IIDX styles, etc.) and "dynamic" games where the entire point of the game is to learn how to move yourself to be able to hit notes (beat saber, maimai, wacca, dance games, etc.) *one extra note I'd like to add is that just because a VSRG has less lanes doesn't mean it's fundamentally the same still, 4k and 7k keyboard games can be seen as fundamentally the same but the less lanes a game has the more it can focus on pure speed, while the more lanes it has the more it can focus on density and complexity of the patterns
Would've been worth mentioning ITG as a tie to reading non-vertical inputs, since it basically spearheaded modcharting. It is fundamentally just DDR, but the ease of modding it definitely makes it stand out.
Before i started playing osu i came from a mobile game called Cytus, where the approach circle is more of an approach line that moves up and down across the screen
Yeah, but for me, Cytus is like the opposite of VSRG. Instead of the notes approaching the stationary judgment line, Cytus makes the judgment line approach the stationary notes.
I personally think "rhythm sense" is the only factor that is really responsible for the transferring of skills to other rhythm games. I personally think there are other factors such as pattern recognition. But this is also dependent on the person how they read rhythm game charts. For example I am able to play rhythm games without music or desynced audio (like 400ms slower) and still upscored and unable to break it for months, but when you turn the speed slightly I would suddenly have shit accuracy for no reason. Subsequently some players are able to play maimai blindfold supersonic entirely (like Solips Mas and still AP) or speed 1 Tsunagite, and while I am here struggling at Umiyuri at 5.5 (my default is 7).
The statement of being good at a certain rhythm game can translate to being good at another is so true. I play proseka the most currently, used to be a bandori player and wayyy before that played piano tiles (not sure if this counts as an actual rhythm game). I've tried games like phigros, Osu, chunithm and maimai. phigros was easy to start off but harder in the later stages, maimai and osu i've had trouble reading, and i got decent at chuni within a few plays.
Wacca was truly a gem that was not permitted to exist due to the much more mainstream successful maimai It really is a shame because despite what it seems, these two games could not be any more different especially at its hardest difficulties However the Wacca community is apparently quite dedicated, and there are unofficial servers to still host the game on actual cabs
One more unable to categorize one to remember is Dance Evolution Arcade (Rest in Peace). Started as a 360 + Kinect game with a very neutered setlist, before getting an upgraded version in arcades, still using the Kinect for full body tracking but with more famous Jpop and BEMANI songs. There technically still are taps (limb at position), holds (limb stays in position), and drags (limb follows path), but since it's a Kinect it's all tracked relative to your body, and the special notes basically require you to strike poses. At easier difficulties you can probably cheese most of the notes, but on the hardest difficulty you may as well (and probably should) follow the exact choreography for a better scores. Very much a game for the "Odottemita" ("I tried to dance") scene in otaku culture.
luckily DanEvo AC is probably the easiest and cheapest arcade rhythm game to play at home with a truly completely faithful controller... a Kinect! It plays literally identically despite the Kinect model being different in terms of the firmware in the arcade version, the only thing missing is that the offline patch which hasn't been leaked publicly has an extra song
hey this is pretty good ngl. i did remember i analysed rhythm games like this, and i think i grouped all gacha games together, given the near identical nature of them, being barline (mobile VSRG) games. oh and vivid stasis. One heck of a great Keyboard 4K VSRG game for introducing a new (rhythm only) gameplay feature.
beat saber relates to other rhythm games because it does the same neural processes (for reading notes) as other rhythm games. its why within my first year of playing beat saber a bunch, i also managed to beat a proseka song on master mode on my first day of playing proseka, since i was so used to reading notes. hope this helps
joining like thousands of arcaea players saying "why do you call arcs lasers"(and adding that tip of Blue=Left and Red=Right from Red and Blue because 6:35) also would a dance of fire and ice qualify as "1k but every key is binded to that one lane"/"osu but you remove the mouse" or would it be their own thing
Great video, the flow and edit was amazing I'd include D4DJ too! Arcaea and pjsk skills pretty much transfer to that game, also maybe SDVX too? Because you have "phaser", in D4DJ you slide a bar horizontally, but it notes plays somewhat like a knob laser note would?? Dunno
I think one key mechanic you could’ve mentioned in maimai are spins. They’re basically trills in vsrg (I think??) but since it goes in a loop it requires a different type of skill which is spinning/swiping in a consistent speed instead of a good sense of rhythm compared to “poking” the notes. Very good video! Me with my attention span of 7.27 seconds managed to watch a 15 min long video without skipping is impressive. 👍
Believe it or not taiko skill (for me) directly translates to Beat Saber, at least if you play taiko KDDK and alternating. Most (ranked) Beat Saber maps are mapped in a way that your wrist goes "up-down-up-down" repeteadly, the movement is quite similar as a stream in taiko but instead of changing which finger to move (ring or middle in taiko) you slightly need to change the angle of your wrist. Of course this applies only to movement in streams, as in BS there's tons of patterns. VSRG and taiko reading also is quite useful as most BS maps only have 4 lanes (like a lot of VSRG) and notes come to the same lane as different colors (like in taiko).
Oldschool head here. DDR was my first. It kind of helped with IIDX but BOY...that was the truest skill check I've ever ran into in my life. Even today I can only clear up 8's reliably and sometimes up to 10's if they're easier.
im sorry you calling arcs lasers just triggers me so much LOL theres also a special thing with pjsk and chunithm, because notes can vary in sizes, it can add a whole new layer of reading
I think Beat Saber could be linked to Taiko in that both games require heavy use of your wrists, but not much more than that. The readability in the two games is completely different.
Bro did NOT do pjsk justice 😭😭😭 there’s so much more to it than being an anime girl vocaloid game (I know it was a joke) jp pjsk players r on another level when it comes to charts Nice video tho
surprised u didnt make the link between musedash and vsrgs, as a vsrg player i find it basically the same to both read and input, theres a few twists on reading but thats not unheard of considering vsrgs such as notitg exist
Agreed on Australia not having enough variety of rhythm games in it’s arcade. Miss playing my go-to rhythm game jubeat since I moved to Australia. Well, it is defo a rhythm game only proliferates in Asian countries. (And losing popularity nowadays tbh :( ). It has a pretty unique gameplay style that I think you should try out and cover it.
rhythm games are so much easier when you've already built up a sense of rhythm. my first one was gh3. have been able to pick up other rhythm games very quickly ever since then. have experience playing and performing actual music helps a lot too
slight correction, IIDX and SDVX specifically are 7+1 and 6+2 rather than 8, the number after the + indicating that those buttons are "special", because scratches and lasers aren't used the same way as buttons
Would love to add to the discussion games that focus entirely on rhythm but minimally on input eg. rhythm heaven 7th beat games games. Or games that fuse rhythm skill with other genres eg. Mad Rat Dead, Bullets Per Minute
6:30 They’re not lasers😡😮😡😮😡☹️☹️🤬 they’re called arcs they’re not lasers :(. Also this might sound weird but on beat saber i found that it has a link to arcaea, it’d kinda similar when they’re both in a 3D space, and also beat saber added arc notes, which have the exact same name as the arcaea notes and they just work a little different.
As a Beat Saber player coming to Maimai just recently I can say that it helped me transition faster since I both use all of my upper body for both games so my shoulder can not break on me so yayyy, especially with maimai charts that have heavy jump sessions where the incoming notes are literally at the other end of the screen Also I don’t like tech slide heavy charts
the difference between dance games (ddr like) and keyboard ones is that on kb everyone uses spread which is 1 finger for each key and in dance games you almost always alternate your feet which makes the transition not as easy even reading-wise (you can also play index playstyle on kb to emulate that). this makes them connect to beat saber a little because in there you almost always alternate your hands (although in this case it's an explicit game mechanic)
That and sheer stamina. Being tired rarely happens in any other type of rhythm game. You step the equivalent of a five minute mile for DDR at the highest levels and last I checked, running didn't validate your existence by whether or not your left foot landed 33.3ms out of step with your right. The overweight dance game player is a rare sight and just about everyone has calves of steel.
I feel like if you were to place Ongeki somewhere it'd probably be next to SV but other than that its a pretty unique game because the movement aspect doesn't really transfer from any other game (or at least ones that are rhythms lol)
Personally I wouldn't judge reading and input separately take sound voltex and arcaea for example if we look at reading only, we might conclude that it's similar to read but taking the knob into account and the 3d nature of arcaea's lazer compare to the 2d lazer in sound voltex, we will see that - sound voltex: you essentially have 2 "lane" for each knob (turn left and turn right) and the lazer patterns form by combining those in some orders which mean you read how the two lazers switch - arcaea: basically infinitely many way a lazer can form plus you have to hold it down so when reading you have to read the static part too, patterns form by splitting the lazer into curves and lines (and even sub curves if the curve is too long) which mean you are reading how to aim the lazer i would say playing one of the two teach you how to read something else on top of a standard vsrg but i dont think the reading carry over much
as Pump It Up player 1st then start to brached out to Osu!Standard then Arcaea and later phigros and now started to take interest on Maimai,Dancerush and its Vr Variant(i forgot the name) and Beat saber now that Quest 2 prices are lowering down the entry barrier i can pretty much agree on some part especially Osu!Ctb,but felt Beat Saber is somewhere around Damcerush and Taiko in terms of skillset since you use your hand almost the same way you use drums bit you have to move and possibly need to duck and jump just like on dancerush,not to mention i saw some of beat saber mod wich mimics dancerush by slicing it with feets and then i found that theres a dancerush clone for vr basically act similarly to how chunitm and puroseka is
I know I'm gonna been seen as annoying for this because I'm saying "You forgot __" but I really do think that it's worth mentioning this game: A Dance Of Fire And Ice (ADOFAI for short) While the reading in ADOFAI is completely different as the visuals are represented by two orbiting planets landing on tiles, your ability to clear harder charts is SIGNIFICANTLY boosted if you have experience in ANY rhythm game that involves tapping. The game has no hold notes that had a significant level of difficulty like in any VSRG, so top gameplay is based purely off of tapping to the required rhythms. Where I get my evidence for the fact that pretty much any previous rhythm game experience boosts your ability to play the game well is how the game is mostly dominated by Korean players. Korea is one of the only countries that actually has designated rhythm game arcades (please correct me if I'm wrong about that), an open opportunity to training your ability to maintain rhythm. As a Beat Saber player myself, I can definitely attest to the fact that it literally has no connection with any other rhythm games. It is a complete outlier. This point is proven further by how the scoring system is not based on timing windows to hit the cubes, but instead how accurately you can cut the cubes through the center, and how large your swings are. Even with all that said, this was a very excellent video! Great work!
I'd also like to add that Rhythm Doctor, another game that 7th Beat Games made should probably be mentioned, I think due to it's use of audio cues instead of visual cues it should be significant too. Rhythm Heaven, Bits and Bops, and Melatonin should be considered too, I know nobody really cares about my opinion but I'll just state it out lol
11:14 "Most Beginner players I've met (in maimai) that are prodigies have a background in Taiko." Me, a Taiko player, sucking at the spinny washing machine game: Well yes, but actually no.
see, despite every every game being different with input and or reading, it doesnt matter if your rhythm is as equivelent a cat playing with a metronome
One thing that seems under used in rythem games is mines. (aka notes you don't want to hit) Although the most common place to find them is probably in friday night funkin mods, which is kinda interesting
i feel like beat saber connects to taiko a bit, because you also have two color notes, red and blue, and they're both sorta in the same lane, plus sabers and bachis arent that different lol
another game really similar to muse dash is unbeatable! has the same horizontal scrolling but notes can also come from both directions which to my knowledge muse dash doesn't have. sadly there's only the demo for now but the main game has reached its kickstarter goal
Would cytus tie in closer to osu? Judgement line->hitcircle? Where do u think jubeat would sit in? Also there's the odd category of single button rhythm games like rhythm doctor and rhythm heaven Man there's so many, is there an ultimate rhythm game chart?
Pretty sure the official pronunciation(?, it's in the end of the Introduction song) is "Phi (as in the greek letter, "phee")-gross", with the stress on the o
I'm fairly good at Taiko and I'm new to Maimai, I think maimai charts are more cluttered to read than taiko and am trying to learn how to read maimai charts at the moment
@@sixsix14unfortunately I don't play dojo that much because I'm under the mercy of whatever the condition my arcade's drums are at (although they do fix them promptly) and I'm still trying to get the hang of rolling, but third dan is my highest! I play on the switch ver more :D Dojo's conditions can be very strict/narrow haha. I do plan on continuing sometimes soon
@@SaowAngelyeah I do, and I think it also has to do with my hands not being able to catch up the clutter in the screen even when I think I can read the patterns
Cool video and an interesting look at how the skills overlap and differ, thanks! I just wanted to pop in (hehe) to mention to anyone who might find this interesting that pop'n'music is a vertical scroller with 9 lanes and a wild controller that's actually pretty cheap to buy - I think that 9 lanes is the upper limit of what has been tried. Some vertical scrollers like beat souls require you to move your avatar through the lanes which is an interesting mechanic that came from games like thumper but idk how much that corelates to the skills that regular clicking/tapping vertical scrollers require. I think someone mentioned it but osu is not an original game, same way as osu taiko is a knock-off, OG game is osu! tatakae! ouendan and there have been three of them for the DS, one of them being a western release and available in English (Elite Beat Agents) and they are delightful to play and the cutscenes before missions are animated like a motion comic so I would say you can play them even without knowing Japanese with some trial and error (or google lens) as to what the settings do, if you have a DS then give them a try! As someone who started playing Taiko on handhelds and only recently graduated to a drum controller I see how much of the skill is the part where your body automates the movements required vs reading the charts and understanding them (I usually play oni 7 with a gamepad pretty comfortably and on the drum I struggle with hard 8-9).
I don't know if it's just me, but PIU and DDR just don't seem to translate in my experience. I can read and play PIU pretty decently, but simply can't for DDR. Maybe it's the arrows that throw me off? idk another unmentioned link might be cyTus to osu!standard. idk, I've made that jump and it seemed to translate.. cuz you click the circles.. to the beat (but also I'm a touchscreen player so maybe not necessarily that)
Do not forget that Drag notes exist on Project Sekai (Similar to Phigros and Varied VSRG’s). Relief me that i played phigros before the V3.0 of the JP Server so i can used on it that much before make my gameplay complicated. (P.S: Seems im guilty after mentioning abt the gacha Since im a (Not a #1) fan of Ichika Hoshino 😅. Otherwise, its a great video i see and may ppl will watched and learn how will VSRG’s can do for you and what should you start playing as a beginner. kudos!💙)
somewhat of a stretch but a lot of beatsaber pattens follow a ⬆️⬇️⬆️⬇️⬆️ pattern of some sort to make it feel like it flows, that kinda transfers over to flick notes in like. phigros and pjsk, and then to the turn table in iidx, one way transfer like with taiko tho also cytus and osu
It does though, I was able to clear 15s on SDVX on my first day without having touch SDVX ever. I have an Arcaea background and I find that it helped me a lot.
@@axyorifelheim3811 To each their own, I guess. I can clear ADV 15 charts since they don't involve any complex knob stuff (the skills from my history with osu!mania are more relevant for this), but even as low as an EXH 12 will humiliate me if it's got even a tiny bit of knob or hand trip charting
@@cy4ni430 Despite being able to do crosshands effortlessly in Arcaea, the moment you give me any sort of hand trip or knob-based chart in SDVX I just implode. I can do high density note charts no problem but the moment you give me even as low as an EXH 12 with weird lasers I'm not passing that
ur not supposed to use bachi on tatacon unless it’s modded 😭😭😭😭 from my experience playing with the plastic sticks is somehow better than my normal bachi as there’s no wood for the maibachi to roll on
4:48 This is why i like arcade, mobile and vr rhythm games more than pc ones. You don't just mash your keyboard I also played chunithm a while ago it was so fun and easy to get used to i was almost fcing songs on expert
I will just say since you did show it in the video, I think classifying guitar/clone hero with the rest of the vsrgs doesn't make much sense. While it certainly looks as though the gameplay would be similar, they are extremely different because of how using the guitar controller affects the gameplay. It's much more revolved around patterning than other rhythm games (for example, a zig is 5 notes, and in other vsrgs you would play it as though hitting 5 notes, but in clone hero you basically just do one motion and it hits all of it).
From a beginner maimai player with a lot of experience in the genre, slides are fucking impossible to me. I bounced off maimai so hard but so my friends tell me i should still give it a try. If only my closest cab wasn't ~260 miles away😢
Now that i think, Taiko and ADOFAI connect in a lot of ways, don't they Single lane, two types of inputs, similar reading (just with different directions and all)
those saying 'bro forgot _' remember there's over a hundred rhythm games he can't do it all
frfr
True
The truth..
It feels cursed how Phigros is considered a vertically scrolling rhythm game
Vertical and horizontal Lmao
For now(at least after 2.0.0)it's mostly Vertical scroll with gimmicks. Legacy charts on the other hand....
@@SaowAngel and diagonal lmao... or also Lanota?(part of stasis AT chart), or like cytus
@@cooki9807Lmao Lyrith there observing from the corner
Laterally scrolling rhythm game
calling arcs “lasers” is the equivalent of calling the wave in geometry dash “arrow” or “dart”
I'm too sdvx pilled
its called Arcaea not Laseraea
The old name was the dart.
Lasers is the correct term 😎 arcs is off brand
@@trollsansofficial Let's also start calling the UFO a "bird", seems like a good idea
man i love pulling for fictional anime girls (and the six guys) in project sekai but i enjoy a wide range of rhythm games especially more challenging ones, and this is such a great video connecting them all
GOOD VIDEO
😮
TY!🐐🐐🐐
Holy moly🤯
YES
no way bmc
i’d like to mention another circle game, chrono circle. basically like maimai, but there’s a rotation mechanic (rotaeno connection) where you spin the wheel controller for rotate notes and for moving slides. aside from that, there are the outer buttons on said wheel as well as notes on screen. this is where “chrono” comes in-the judgment line(s) is like hands on a clock, the notes just sit there and you wait for the line to align with them
i was also thinking of chrono circle too! especially with the rotation mechanic. but rip the game since its gonna be gone (the online server) next year 😔
Due to historical reasons:
- Deemo kind of needs to be mentioned as one of the first popular mobile VSRGs to do away with lanes
- Dynamix kind of needs to be mentioned if Phygros is mentioned, as (it seems) somewhat of a strong inspiration
- And the original Ouendan kind of needs to be mentioned if osu is mentioned as osu did start as an unofficial PC port of Ouendan
It's for the same reason that Taiko no Tatsujin needs to be mentioned when talking about osu!taiko (done) or how you did mention ez2dj for osu!catch (thank you).
Otherwise, the video is pretty amazing!
I actually had deemo and dynamix written down but removed them for the more popular successors, but you make a good point
Agreed, it sucks that people don’t know osu is just a knockoff of Ouendan/Elite Beat Agents.
As a musician who absolutely loves rhythm games, the hardest part for me is figuring out when the notes are hit in relation to the songs melody.
Also, Rhythm Doctor is one of the best rhythm games I've ever tried. I recommend that everyone who also loves rhythm games play it.
Have you tried fixing your offset in the games? Once you set that up properly, usually notes would be in time with the music...henkhenk. Unless you're talking about lower difficulty charts then yea... the note patterns in these charts tend to oversimplify the melodies.
@@oonkadoonk544 Na I only need to hear the relevent melody in the song once and then I can match it up to the pattern I saw in game. I call it "rhythmic context" as it usually takes me one pass through the song to understand it.
@@EnderSackboy oh yeah, pretty sure that's normal for all of us, which is also why i tent to plays familiar songs first whenever i play a new rhythm game, as i already know the song, i can concentrate on how to play the game instead
Rhythm Doctor is literally my favorite rhythm game. Not the hardest or most skill based but great music, art style, story, etc. 7th games hit it out if the park (literally with the most recent update)
Also ADOFAI!
Some extras : there's also wacca-like game in mobile now, it's called liminality. But, it's still in Japanese, not translated yet, but it plays pretty much like wacca, and also they just recently do a collab with hardcore tano*c, crazy
Oh shit gonna check it out now
14:09 ngl I died a little when you said "izz to DJ" instead of "easy to DJ"
I'm so sorry, thought it was "ez" since it's spelt like that lol
@@SaowAngel haha its fine i just thought its funny, great video though
I came here to write this
Osu catch player here. There’s definitely a rhythm aspect that is pretty essential to follow once you start to get around 4 stars but it focuses the most on precision in how you play. What I would compare it to most is actually a precision platformer in the vein of Celeste or Super Meat Boy. My prior skill in platformers really helped me when learning the game mode. Definitely really under-appreciated since it’s genuinely really cool.
"you use your index fingers to tap"
me, a thumb player: 😢😢
sorry bro you don't exist
I was angry too. Thumb is the real way to play games like Project sekai.
@@megagiganium6211 master and append:
me, having no arms: 😢😢
@@The-cyber-imbiber You use your legs?
I also like using jakads as an example of skill transfer between games because on some old streams/ his twitter he says that the hardest part about learning new rhythm games is whatever special mechanic they introduce over other ones. Jakads learned rhythm games from playing O2J (afaik) so from the start he was learning skills like LNs, higher keymodes (4+), and thumb usage (especially in his case he used both thumbs to press space bc that's what the O2J tutorial told you to do) so all of those skills are easily transferrable to other games. The higher number of lanes transfer to other traditional VSRGs like EZ2ON, high keymode osumania, and DJMAX which is slightly interesting because it bridges the gap between many different games in the fact that it's a multi-keyed VSRG but it also has scratch lanes (like IIDX, etc) and two separate thumb buttons that are overlayed on the main lanes which tie back to both thumb usage and reading FX buttons in sound voltex. The main difficulty of learning new games is all the special mechanics (lasers in SDVX, flick notes in proseka, raise notes in chunithm, scratch notes in IIDX and it's abysmal button layout). However many types of special mechanics you can engrain into your fundamental skill of rhythm gaming is how easy it will be for you to transfer to a new game. Someone who spent the late 2000s playing stepmania/etterna will have a harder time transferring to osumania or quaver than someone who spent that time playing O2J just on the pure fact of the LN release timing being such a fundamental game difference. Personally I like to separate rhythm games into a few categories of "anchored" gameplay where your input always physically stay the same (traditional VSRGs) "mixed games" where your inputs have a set rule to them but you still must physically change how you move yourself to play (SDVX, chunithm, some IIDX styles, etc.) and "dynamic" games where the entire point of the game is to learn how to move yourself to be able to hit notes (beat saber, maimai, wacca, dance games, etc.)
*one extra note I'd like to add is that just because a VSRG has less lanes doesn't mean it's fundamentally the same still, 4k and 7k keyboard games can be seen as fundamentally the same but the less lanes a game has the more it can focus on pure speed, while the more lanes it has the more it can focus on density and complexity of the patterns
Would've been worth mentioning ITG as a tie to reading non-vertical inputs, since it basically spearheaded modcharting. It is fundamentally just DDR, but the ease of modding it definitely makes it stand out.
Before i started playing osu i came from a mobile game called Cytus, where the approach circle is more of an approach line that moves up and down across the screen
Yeah, but for me, Cytus is like the opposite of VSRG. Instead of the notes approaching the stationary judgment line, Cytus makes the judgment line approach the stationary notes.
I personally think "rhythm sense" is the only factor that is really responsible for the transferring of skills to other rhythm games. I personally think there are other factors such as pattern recognition. But this is also dependent on the person how they read rhythm game charts. For example I am able to play rhythm games without music or desynced audio (like 400ms slower) and still upscored and unable to break it for months, but when you turn the speed slightly I would suddenly have shit accuracy for no reason. Subsequently some players are able to play maimai blindfold supersonic entirely (like Solips Mas and still AP) or speed 1 Tsunagite, and while I am here struggling at Umiyuri at 5.5 (my default is 7).
The statement of being good at a certain rhythm game can translate to being good at another is so true.
I play proseka the most currently, used to be a bandori player and wayyy before that played piano tiles (not sure if this counts as an actual rhythm game). I've tried games like phigros, Osu, chunithm and maimai. phigros was easy to start off but harder in the later stages, maimai and osu i've had trouble reading, and i got decent at chuni within a few plays.
Piano tiles was my gateway drug
how are you already 15.2k in maimai 😭
probably would be 15.3k if i played more and farmed
Saying "WACCA is a dead game everyone moved on to maimai" is such a disservice to the incredibly active community surrounding Wacca even to this day
LMAO, tbf here in australia, i never seen anyone play on it 💀
Wacca was truly a gem that was not permitted to exist due to the much more mainstream successful maimai
It really is a shame because despite what it seems, these two games could not be any more different especially at its hardest difficulties
However the Wacca community is apparently quite dedicated, and there are unofficial servers to still host the game on actual cabs
One more unable to categorize one to remember is Dance Evolution Arcade (Rest in Peace). Started as a 360 + Kinect game with a very neutered setlist, before getting an upgraded version in arcades, still using the Kinect for full body tracking but with more famous Jpop and BEMANI songs.
There technically still are taps (limb at position), holds (limb stays in position), and drags (limb follows path), but since it's a Kinect it's all tracked relative to your body, and the special notes basically require you to strike poses. At easier difficulties you can probably cheese most of the notes, but on the hardest difficulty you may as well (and probably should) follow the exact choreography for a better scores. Very much a game for the "Odottemita" ("I tried to dance") scene in otaku culture.
luckily DanEvo AC is probably the easiest and cheapest arcade rhythm game to play at home with a truly completely faithful controller... a Kinect! It plays literally identically despite the Kinect model being different in terms of the firmware in the arcade version, the only thing missing is that the offline patch which hasn't been leaked publicly has an extra song
hey this is pretty good ngl.
i did remember i analysed rhythm games like this, and i think i grouped all gacha games together, given the near identical nature of them, being barline (mobile VSRG) games.
oh and vivid stasis. One heck of a great Keyboard 4K VSRG game for introducing a new (rhythm only) gameplay feature.
Tyty. Vivid stasis is also pretty fun as well, but i forgot to put in the video lol
Nice video explains about rhythm games. Loving playing Phigros,Maimai, PJsekai and D4DJ here.
HOLY HELL D4DJ MENTIONED
Dynamix player quietly crying in the corner
*_No paradigm reboot :v_*
bro not even d4dj smh
Yeah that's me😢
@@MAVEBACKHO 이게임이뉴비유입이란걸알까요
beat saber relates to other rhythm games because it does the same neural processes (for reading notes) as other rhythm games. its why within my first year of playing beat saber a bunch, i also managed to beat a proseka song on master mode on my first day of playing proseka, since i was so used to reading notes. hope this helps
yea i feel like my osu dt skill transfered well into playing fast maps in beat saber
Him saying "standard vs directional" broke me a little lol
the way notes come at you in beat saber really feels to me like the perspective in the playfield of many VSRGs like guitar hero or project sekai
@@unicodepepper yeah, exactly
joining like thousands of arcaea players saying "why do you call arcs lasers"(and adding that tip of Blue=Left and Red=Right from Red and Blue because 6:35)
also would a dance of fire and ice qualify as "1k but every key is binded to that one lane"/"osu but you remove the mouse" or would it be their own thing
Great video, the flow and edit was amazing
I'd include D4DJ too! Arcaea and pjsk skills pretty much transfer to that game, also maybe SDVX too? Because you have "phaser", in D4DJ you slide a bar horizontally, but it notes plays somewhat like a knob laser note would?? Dunno
D4DJ MENTIONED RAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
If there was another part of this video, add an A Dance of Fire and Ice
I was hoping he'd mention ADOFAI too 😔
11:44 is that a ba dum tss LMAO
I think one key mechanic you could’ve mentioned in maimai are spins. They’re basically trills in vsrg (I think??) but since it goes in a loop it requires a different type of skill which is spinning/swiping in a consistent speed instead of a good sense of rhythm compared to “poking” the notes.
Very good video! Me with my attention span of 7.27 seconds managed to watch a 15 min long video without skipping is impressive. 👍
more like staircases in vsrgs
@@xjfn yeah and learning how to play them is one of the most satisfying thing ever :D
very interesting attention span...
Believe it or not taiko skill (for me) directly translates to Beat Saber, at least if you play taiko KDDK and alternating. Most (ranked) Beat Saber maps are mapped in a way that your wrist goes "up-down-up-down" repeteadly, the movement is quite similar as a stream in taiko but instead of changing which finger to move (ring or middle in taiko) you slightly need to change the angle of your wrist.
Of course this applies only to movement in streams, as in BS there's tons of patterns. VSRG and taiko reading also is quite useful as most BS maps only have 4 lanes (like a lot of VSRG) and notes come to the same lane as different colors (like in taiko).
and then theres tech.....
we dont talk about tech....
Oldschool head here. DDR was my first. It kind of helped with IIDX but BOY...that was the truest skill check I've ever ran into in my life. Even today I can only clear up 8's reliably and sometimes up to 10's if they're easier.
im sorry you calling arcs lasers just triggers me so much LOL
theres also a special thing with pjsk and chunithm, because notes can vary in sizes, it can add a whole new layer of reading
he forgot to mentions trace notes too
I think Beat Saber could be linked to Taiko in that both games require heavy use of your wrists, but not much more than that. The readability in the two games is completely different.
Bro did NOT do pjsk justice 😭😭😭 there’s so much more to it than being an anime girl vocaloid game (I know it was a joke) jp pjsk players r on another level when it comes to charts
Nice video tho
As someone that plays every rhythm game and is OBSESSED with skill transfer, this vid is so so so good! Imma send this to ppl to explain the concept!~
finally.. i dont have to explain this to people anymore when they think im crazy
Now they will think I'm the crazy one
I'm surprised you didn't mention Cytus in the mobile section thought it can also be gotten on Nintendo Switch, which is another tap rhythm game.
surprised u didnt make the link between musedash and vsrgs, as a vsrg player i find it basically the same to both read and input, theres a few twists on reading but thats not unheard of considering vsrgs such as notitg exist
Agreed on Australia not having enough variety of rhythm games in it’s arcade. Miss playing my go-to rhythm game jubeat since I moved to Australia. Well, it is defo a rhythm game only proliferates in Asian countries. (And losing popularity nowadays tbh :( ). It has a pretty unique gameplay style that I think you should try out and cover it.
rhythm games are so much easier when you've already built up a sense of rhythm. my first one was gh3. have been able to pick up other rhythm games very quickly ever since then. have experience playing and performing actual music helps a lot too
slight correction, IIDX and SDVX specifically are 7+1 and 6+2 rather than 8, the number after the + indicating that those buttons are "special", because scratches and lasers aren't used the same way as buttons
rotaeno mentioned !!! really fun game ngl
Would love to add to the discussion games that focus entirely on rhythm but minimally on input eg. rhythm heaven 7th beat games games. Or games that fuse rhythm skill with other genres eg. Mad Rat Dead, Bullets Per Minute
Phigros is my favourite here
14:30 did you just call OSU!Catch a superior gamemode than the other game modes?
You know it's true
@SaowAngel you made me happy as a OSU!Catch player
6:30 They’re not lasers😡😮😡😮😡☹️☹️🤬 they’re called arcs they’re not lasers :(.
Also this might sound weird but on beat saber i found that it has a link to arcaea, it’d kinda similar when they’re both in a 3D space, and also beat saber added arc notes, which have the exact same name as the arcaea notes and they just work a little different.
a link to arcaea? as in similarities?
As a Beat Saber player coming to Maimai just recently I can say that it helped me transition faster since I both use all of my upper body for both games so my shoulder can not break on me so yayyy, especially with maimai charts that have heavy jump sessions where the incoming notes are literally at the other end of the screen
Also I don’t like tech slide heavy charts
the difference between dance games (ddr like) and keyboard ones is that on kb everyone uses spread which is 1 finger for each key and in dance games you almost always alternate your feet which makes the transition not as easy even reading-wise (you can also play index playstyle on kb to emulate that). this makes them connect to beat saber a little because in there you almost always alternate your hands (although in this case it's an explicit game mechanic)
Yeah triple jacks bs are rare in PIU and ddr
That and sheer stamina. Being tired rarely happens in any other type of rhythm game. You step the equivalent of a five minute mile for DDR at the highest levels and last I checked, running didn't validate your existence by whether or not your left foot landed 33.3ms out of step with your right. The overweight dance game player is a rare sight and just about everyone has calves of steel.
I feel like if you were to place Ongeki somewhere it'd probably be next to SV but other than that its a pretty unique game because the movement aspect doesn't really transfer from any other game (or at least ones that are rhythms lol)
Personally I wouldn't judge reading and input separately
take sound voltex and arcaea for example
if we look at reading only, we might conclude that it's similar to read
but taking the knob into account and the 3d nature of arcaea's lazer compare to the 2d lazer in sound voltex, we will see that
- sound voltex: you essentially have 2 "lane" for each knob (turn left and turn right) and the lazer patterns form by combining those in some orders which mean you read how the two lazers switch
- arcaea: basically infinitely many way a lazer can form plus you have to hold it down so when reading you have to read the static part too, patterns form by splitting the lazer into curves and lines (and even sub curves if the curve is too long) which mean you are reading how to aim the lazer
i would say playing one of the two teach you how to read something else on top of a standard vsrg but i dont think the reading carry over much
actually such a comprehensive video nice one
Any real drum experiences directly translates to drummania skills, you should definitely try playing it.
as Pump It Up player 1st then start to brached out to Osu!Standard then Arcaea and later phigros and now started to take interest on Maimai,Dancerush and its Vr Variant(i forgot the name) and Beat saber now that Quest 2 prices are lowering down the entry barrier
i can pretty much agree on some part especially Osu!Ctb,but felt Beat Saber is somewhere around Damcerush and Taiko in terms of skillset since you use your hand almost the same way you use drums bit you have to move and possibly need to duck and jump just like on dancerush,not to mention i saw some of beat saber mod wich mimics dancerush by slicing it with feets and then i found that theres a dancerush clone for vr basically act similarly to how chunitm and puroseka is
Rip Ongeki
For real
Me when only jp exclusive
@@SaowAngelPlayed it in london @ freeplaycity, skill issue
I am just gonna say rest in peace to groove coaster and chrono circle. since they got announced EoS
0:18 WTF that's me!!
sick play
@@SaowAngel funnily enough on my 2nd ever attempt some months later i couldnt AP it
I know I'm gonna been seen as annoying for this because I'm saying "You forgot __" but I really do think that it's worth mentioning this game: A Dance Of Fire And Ice (ADOFAI for short)
While the reading in ADOFAI is completely different as the visuals are represented by two orbiting planets landing on tiles, your ability to clear harder charts is SIGNIFICANTLY boosted if you have experience in ANY rhythm game that involves tapping. The game has no hold notes that had a significant level of difficulty like in any VSRG, so top gameplay is based purely off of tapping to the required rhythms. Where I get my evidence for the fact that pretty much any previous rhythm game experience boosts your ability to play the game well is how the game is mostly dominated by Korean players. Korea is one of the only countries that actually has designated rhythm game arcades (please correct me if I'm wrong about that), an open opportunity to training your ability to maintain rhythm.
As a Beat Saber player myself, I can definitely attest to the fact that it literally has no connection with any other rhythm games. It is a complete outlier. This point is proven further by how the scoring system is not based on timing windows to hit the cubes, but instead how accurately you can cut the cubes through the center, and how large your swings are.
Even with all that said, this was a very excellent video! Great work!
I'd also like to add that Rhythm Doctor, another game that 7th Beat Games made should probably be mentioned, I think due to it's use of audio cues instead of visual cues it should be significant too.
Rhythm Heaven, Bits and Bops, and Melatonin should be considered too, I know nobody really cares about my opinion but I'll just state it out lol
I was gonna add a section for those types of rgs but was lazy lol
11:14 "Most Beginner players I've met (in maimai) that are prodigies have a background in Taiko."
Me, a Taiko player, sucking at the spinny washing machine game: Well yes, but actually no.
Think about it as the tappy washing machine game instead of spinning :)
see, despite every every game being different with input and or reading, it doesnt matter if your rhythm is as equivelent a cat playing with a metronome
One thing that seems under used in rythem games is mines. (aka notes you don't want to hit) Although the most common place to find them is probably in friday night funkin mods, which is kinda interesting
lanota mentioned
i feel like beat saber connects to taiko a bit, because you also have two color notes, red and blue, and they're both sorta in the same lane, plus sabers and bachis arent that different lol
another game really similar to muse dash is unbeatable! has the same horizontal scrolling but notes can also come from both directions which to my knowledge muse dash doesn't have. sadly there's only the demo for now but the main game has reached its kickstarter goal
This is so underrated
I feel like people who don't cosider ctb a rhythm game just didn't play anything beyond 3 stars.
BEAT SABER MENTIONED RAHHHH!!
Would cytus tie in closer to osu?
Judgement line->hitcircle?
Where do u think jubeat would sit in?
Also there's the odd category of single button rhythm games like rhythm doctor and rhythm heaven
Man there's so many, is there an ultimate rhythm game chart?
I can see jubeat and cytus together. I was going to put rd and adofai but was lazy lol
XD
I love how everyone pronounces Phigros differently
"fig-gros"
I say fi gros
@@SaowAngel
"Pee-gross"
Pretty sure the official pronunciation(?, it's in the end of the Introduction song) is "Phi (as in the greek letter, "phee")-gross", with the stress on the o
I'm fairly good at Taiko and I'm new to Maimai, I think maimai charts are more cluttered to read than taiko and am trying to learn how to read maimai charts at the moment
presuming you find tapping easier right as welll with reading slides much harder
NO WAY ANOTHER TAIKO PLAYER
what dan rank are u? 🥳 rare to see taiko players tbh
@@sixsix14unfortunately I don't play dojo that much because I'm under the mercy of whatever the condition my arcade's drums are at (although they do fix them promptly) and I'm still trying to get the hang of rolling, but third dan is my highest! I play on the switch ver more :D Dojo's conditions can be very strict/narrow haha. I do plan on continuing sometimes soon
@@SaowAngelyeah I do, and I think it also has to do with my hands not being able to catch up the clutter in the screen even when I think I can read the patterns
@@iluVioletLink wow!! im like the only kurouto in sydney somehow
Cool video and an interesting look at how the skills overlap and differ, thanks! I just wanted to pop in (hehe) to mention to anyone who might find this interesting that pop'n'music is a vertical scroller with 9 lanes and a wild controller that's actually pretty cheap to buy - I think that 9 lanes is the upper limit of what has been tried.
Some vertical scrollers like beat souls require you to move your avatar through the lanes which is an interesting mechanic that came from games like thumper but idk how much that corelates to the skills that regular clicking/tapping vertical scrollers require.
I think someone mentioned it but osu is not an original game, same way as osu taiko is a knock-off, OG game is osu! tatakae! ouendan and there have been three of them for the DS, one of them being a western release and available in English (Elite Beat Agents) and they are delightful to play and the cutscenes before missions are animated like a motion comic so I would say you can play them even without knowing Japanese with some trial and error (or google lens) as to what the settings do, if you have a DS then give them a try!
As someone who started playing Taiko on handhelds and only recently graduated to a drum controller I see how much of the skill is the part where your body automates the movements required vs reading the charts and understanding them (I usually play oni 7 with a gamepad pretty comfortably and on the drum I struggle with hard 8-9).
about the PJ diva part that mentions the 3ds, it has project MIRAI not DIVA which is KINDA different
Ahhh... My rhythmical soul is happy...
You missed Magical Beat by arc sys or Touhou Spell Bubble. But those start going into mergers of other genres
hey pretty good video
i guess ctb is like playing with just drag notes
also i lov osu and taiko
I don't know if it's just me, but PIU and DDR just don't seem to translate in my experience. I can read and play PIU pretty decently, but simply can't for DDR. Maybe it's the arrows that throw me off? idk
another unmentioned link might be cyTus to osu!standard. idk, I've made that jump and it seemed to translate.. cuz you click the circles.. to the beat (but also I'm a touchscreen player so maybe not necessarily that)
Technically you can bring GF DM and Taiko into one catagory
good video!
ty
1:29 as someone playing a tournament match of 1 key right now i am offended you said that...
Joke mentioned!
Finally some mentions for vsrg's 🤣 yippiiii
We love the fish vanquisher at 12:56
Pjsk also has trace notes
Do not forget that Drag notes exist on Project Sekai (Similar to Phigros and Varied VSRG’s). Relief me that i played phigros before the V3.0 of the JP Server so i can used on it that much before make my gameplay complicated.
(P.S: Seems im guilty after mentioning abt the gacha Since im a (Not a #1) fan of Ichika Hoshino 😅. Otherwise, its a great video i see and may ppl will watched and learn how will VSRG’s can do for you and what should you start playing as a beginner. kudos!💙)
Damn, i can't believe that i can't transfer my osu! skill to the other rhythm games
Hit button when the thing goes to the thing 😂
somewhat of a stretch but a lot of beatsaber pattens follow a ⬆️⬇️⬆️⬇️⬆️ pattern of some sort to make it feel like it flows, that kinda transfers over to flick notes in like. phigros and pjsk, and then to the turn table in iidx, one way transfer like with taiko tho
also cytus and osu
As an Arcaea player of 5 years and 12.7ptt and a relatively new SDVX player I can confidently say that the reading skill does NOT transfer over at all
It does though, I was able to clear 15s on SDVX on my first day without having touch SDVX ever. I have an Arcaea background and I find that it helped me a lot.
@@axyorifelheim3811 To each their own, I guess. I can clear ADV 15 charts since they don't involve any complex knob stuff (the skills from my history with osu!mania are more relevant for this), but even as low as an EXH 12 will humiliate me if it's got even a tiny bit of knob or hand trip charting
reading skill does, just not input skill
@@cy4ni430 Despite being able to do crosshands effortlessly in Arcaea, the moment you give me any sort of hand trip or knob-based chart in SDVX I just implode. I can do high density note charts no problem but the moment you give me even as low as an EXH 12 with weird lasers I'm not passing that
@@christophobia6415 I meant it in a way that I can read the lazers, i understand what input is required, i just cant execute them 😪
ur not supposed to use bachi on tatacon unless it’s modded 😭😭😭😭 from my experience playing with the plastic sticks is somehow better than my normal bachi as there’s no wood for the maibachi to roll on
it's modded ;)
@@SaowAngel ohhh 🙏 modded tatacons are op
BMS/IIDX skill doesn't really transfer over to other VSRGs that well due to how you end up positioning your hands while playing it
Games like Rhythia seem to fall into the Osu branch of "aim + tap"
4:48 This is why i like arcade, mobile and vr rhythm games more than pc ones. You don't just mash your keyboard
I also played chunithm a while ago it was so fun and easy to get used to i was almost fcing songs on expert
I will just say since you did show it in the video, I think classifying guitar/clone hero with the rest of the vsrgs doesn't make much sense. While it certainly looks as though the gameplay would be similar, they are extremely different because of how using the guitar controller affects the gameplay. It's much more revolved around patterning than other rhythm games (for example, a zig is 5 notes, and in other vsrgs you would play it as though hitting 5 notes, but in clone hero you basically just do one motion and it hits all of it).
It has been said already but yeah Dynamix should probably have been mentioned, and Deemo probably.
Very good video nonetheless!!
3:42 (Noises in Chilean/Ruidos en Chileno)
Good video
5:19 What about trace notes 😭😭😭
From a beginner maimai player with a lot of experience in the genre, slides are fucking impossible to me. I bounced off maimai so hard but so my friends tell me i should still give it a try. If only my closest cab wasn't ~260 miles away😢
Now that i think, Taiko and ADOFAI connect in a lot of ways, don't they
Single lane, two types of inputs, similar reading (just with different directions and all)
Bandori not mentioned (they were here before Prosekai)
5:33 when you see folen append and master you can see its almost same