Just noticed i screwed up the graph showing the 350 degree injection event, Its at 370 degrees rather than 350 degrees. the whole thing should be to the right 20 degrees. So yeah that injection event is well into to the open intake valve. Inlet valve has been open a long time at this point. It runs 3 - 5.5mm at TDC (360degree) depending on engine rpm (vvti)
Where did all the power go? Mostly because i am running the car up in 3rd gear rather than the usual 1:1 4th gear. As a lot of people have noticed the raw graph gets pretty wiggly in the top end. It seems to be a combo of the dyno and the driveline in this car not loving going over 200kph. Not an engine issue as some people think. Anyway i'm using 3rd gear this time as I can get a better read on what it does right up top. On a similar note. does anyone want to see a video, on how i get consistent results out of this car? Also ways to fudge / cheat dyno results. I already done a video touching on the dyno side of things, not so much whats on the dyno. or anything else you would like to see. remembering i'm just some guy in a shed and these videos dont make any money haha
hhuuuhhh no 160kw hahahah!!! great stuff dude, i had no idea the fuel injection is made during the exhaust cycle. What exhaust are you using today? Sounds sweet!!
Of note is that when the engine "leans out" in the top end because the EOI is well into valve-open area, actual equivalence ratio has not changed. The amount of fuel and the amount of air going through the engine is exactly the same. The reason it looks like it "leans out" is because less of the O2 is being burned because less fuel is being burned because less fuel is being vaporized. Just like a misfire that will show sensor-lean because all that unburned O2 went through the engine...but the actual AFR didn't change. Low pressure port injectors do a pretty shit job at atomizing fuel, which is why the OEMs mostly use around 420° EOI. It puts the fuel on the back of the hot intake valve and ends up with more fuel vaporized when the valve opens. On some engines, I like to use smaller, modern Denso injectors and dial up the fuel pressure. This allows you to shorten the PW, generally results in better atomization, which results in better vaporization, which result in a more efficient calibration. Conversely, on systems with the injectors not aimed at the back of the valve, but way upstream, like in the DCOE-style throttle body, injector timing can be a nightmare. EOI on a closed valve and no moving air just puts the fuel on the runner wall. Idle and mid can foul plugs in no time, and require a lot more fuel. Fuel needs to be injected into a moving airstream, mimicking a carburetor. This also makes Δ-tau, or transient fuel a nightmare to tune, as a lot of fuel is going to condense on the long port wall as soon as the throttle is opened. Requires not just a big shot on throttle opening, but also requires taking fuel away on throttle closing. Anyway...great stuff you're doing here.
Great comparison! One way to tune it would be to go for the injection angle that requires the least amount of fuel, so that you get the most efficient combustion. Or you aim for the lowest EGT's. This can make tuning a engine a forever task...
Those stepped headers sound epic :) i just saw a vid yesterday about someone trying to get that resonance out of his headers and it turned out need to have steps in them - sounds awesome :) Did you pick up any power after stepping them - or its worth any losses just for the sound? :) And yeah - a video about how you get such consistent runs would be great :) along with "cheats" like how hard you strap it down and what tyre pressure does to it and how fast you ramp things and if you have an ambient air temp sensor on the dyno for dyno power corrections n stuff :)
thank you for sharing the great info, especially for including the A/F; it's been my concern if it goes rich or lean depending on combastion effeciency.
@@aaronkirkbride1057 maybe i will do another video with a mild/stock engine to show these kind of things. I used the starlet for this one, as it actually does stuff at wide open. your average engine, not so much
Thanks Mate I realized that this engine needs a lot of fuel at the top end, AFR like 12.3 or less More like a turbo engine. I was not that in to the injector timing. Thanks
@juangraniello7626 hey. I intentionally had the afr set a little rich on the baseline. As I knew it was going to go lean when changing the injector timing. Usually run it closer to 13
Why didn't you do some testing with the inlet valve open to the point just before it closes? The rush of intake charge and subsequent VE is enhanced by charge momentum. Injecting fuel onto the back of closed valves has its merit, ie fuel vaporisation, but to stop the flow and then re accelerate it to move the mixture into the cylinder is counter productive. Do another test and move the EOIT to just before the valve closes and see what happens. The idea of using a large injector is fantastic and makes total sense in this experiment. I'm keen to see your new test results. 😀
A good test will be with bigger injectors that will be used in low duty cycle (lower than intake valve duty cycle) . Maybe you will find some diferences in hp there by altering injection timing
I really enjoy your videos (well done)!!! I have an idea given your combination of parts and tuning is really well optimized (though it may not make any better peak power / bit possibly better average power); would be to make a common plenum to go in place of the air filter…..I think this may result in some gains because, in an earlier video you showed it made slightly better power with the hood down on the dyno…..I’m not an expert that can recommend an exact volume / shape and inlet tube diameter / position, but I do know tunnel ram manifolds on a V8 (think pro-stock / comp-eliminator engines), can make better AVG power than stack injection, due to taking advantage of the tertiary waves / resonance (minimizing torque dips that the harmonic tuning of the intake runner length induces)…..this practice is well studied on 1L race bikes / Moto-GP, which may help to give some inspiration if you wanted to research / try a modification like this….keep up the good work!!!
This would be a good F.I., carburetor comparison. The F.I. needs to be tuned at various RPM for timing and volume. Does a carb do a better job of maintaining the power throughout the curve?
would be interesting to see if would run anygood. Ive heard the carb altlantic 4age's run pretty junk on the low end, compared to the efi ones. The fuel map is pretty wild on this thing compared to you average engine. Either way a comparable carb setup would be out of my budget time and money wise, just for a dyno test unfortunately.
@@Garage4age I've got 45dcoe's on my 160hp bigport. Low end is pretty unhappy, makes standing starts with a TRD gearset tricky! If someone could loan you a carb setup, dizzy and MSD box for a while it would be great to see solid numbers for all the downsides.
I run 45's on an old GT3 car, and help a local guy with his dcoe 45 7ag. It takes a lot of time to get a good baseline that isn't finicky but both cars start well and have nice crisp low throttle. I think it's possible but requires a large arsenal of low end jets, accelerator pump jets, and bleed backs. @@mattteee2973
Have you thought about a dual injector set up? Basically adding one in airbox to shoot down trumpet. Then you could run smaller sized injectors with the inner Injector cut back to 40-60% total fuel, or tapered off entirely. You'd have to get the phasing right, and added fuel system complexity, but it could be good for throttle response, atomization, and pulling heat out. Normally not a commenter, but I just read about this.
It would be cool to hear more exhaust setups and see how they affect power. To see if those obnoxious mufflers you see on hondas and subarus are hurting performance.
Just a question, why weren’t you trying more intake oriented timings? Like opening when intake starts or a tad before? Seems interesting to see that. When I was tuning this is what I was doing most of the times. It kind of ideologically makes it in essence closer to chamber injection. Although I agree it makes almost no difference
better off just to find what the engine likes. what works best here is injecting all the fuel before the valve opens, (at wide open). there are things like travel time, fuel mixing etc to consider.
@@BlueCombPL Part of the injection event is on a open valve on the 350 runs. more so than it looks on those graphs, the cam curve is a generic curve not my actual cams, which run a lot of overlap. I could do it with my standard cam engine with injectors at 70-80% duty. but not much would happen. not really worth making another video about. but next time i have something more mild on dyno will try post it up.
@@Garage4age got it, thanks for the reply! I appreciate what you’re doing, me personally, despite doing quite a few tunings myself I’ve never been able to collect such a high quality data and do the comparisons. Thanks!
You and Robot Cantina (unashamed plug but I have given you a plug over there too) are the best grass roots channels for this type of content. Both of you are 10/10 and both of you make no money yet continue to make vids for the love of sharing knowledge.
Have you ever tested engine angle? I remember back in the day putting a 4 k on a big angle to aim the intake ports as vertical as possible was supposed to be hidden power.
pretty sure most of the k series guys do the upright to get a better intake and longer intake length. which is where the power comes from rather than the angle of the engine
As the injector timing were later, the afr leaned and power drops.. then what about advancing them? lets find out if u can extract abit more power improving the baseline injector timing...
Any tips on where to go with this value for a big cam that jerks at low rpm, low load? Maybe it has to do something with the attomization, earlier eoi would increase atomization? Or make puddles in the port? I will try it tommorow, I was wondering if tried it before
The graphs of the AFR seem to have "waves", especially at low rpm. Is it because the intake pulses sucking and pushing the fuel in and out of the intake?
Yeah basically, the intake and exhaust tuning doing weird things down there. is an issue with big cam overlap at low airspeeds. you can see the peaks and dips line up with the bumps in power. the fuel map looks the same, but its quite hard to get spot on since the ve changes so fast. could dial it out with intake and exhaust tuning. but would have to sacrifice power everywhere else to do it. It's kinda a non issue anyway, as it doesn't do it at part throttle and you arent ever at wide open under 3000rpm where its bad.
To bad your not doing all this trial and error testing on a big high hp 2 stroke. Results could a lot more exciting. Maybe a big old water cooled snowmobile engine. 1000 tcat or 800 xcr
@@Garage4age OK, good to know. At the time of R25 F1, Renault work with continuous injection on RS25 V10 engine (!). An hydraulic damper/absorber on your fuel rail will be a good option for smooth AFR ratio values with no pulsing effect.
not much point going further if its getting worse in either direction. Part of the injection event on the 350 runs is on open intake valve. the valves are open well before tdc at 360. just noticed I screwed up that graph showing the 350 injection event, its at 370 not 350
great video how about a video on the effect of changing the fuel injector dead time i had a problem running the car and the afr was super rich and had to lower the ve numbers substantially to get the car to run .. i found later that the injector dead time was set up for different injectors
would have to change to injectors around 400cc to do it and keep afr correct, I would assume it wouldn't be as bad running 100% duty (open whole engine cycle) vs 40% in the wrong window. but wouldn't be optimal either.
@@Bigcountry_littlelegs Part throttle metering is why Hilborn isn't great for non racing applications. Merc-Benz & Porsche used a modified diesel jerk type pump for petrol injection in the 1970s. Thing is the pump was tuned for the engine by big factories with lots of capital behind them. They were very successful. The throttle response from that setup was impressive but tuning them would be fairly difficult since the plungers are opened and closed by a camshaft and roller follower within the pump which directly controls plunger lift therefore discharge volume. The whole setup is basically fixed since fluid is incompressible, meaning a change in timing and fuel volume would require pump disassembly for every change. It's for this reason that EFI is so adaptable. I must say, if you ever drove a 911 2.7 with mechanical fuel injection it would make you smile form ear to ear. The fun factor is very high.
@ThePaulv12 Yeah, I know hilbourne is a race only setup. I was just curious if it would make more or less or the same power at WOT. yeah, factory mechanical setups are nice but would be a pain on the more heavily modified engines.
It wont make the same power in every gear. well all the gears apart from 4th will probably be similar. 4th being the 1:1 gear in this box, so the layshaft / countershaft is just along for the ride, not driven. hence why its down on power compared to normal being run in 3rd this time. But yeah could show it just to show how the torque multiplies with gearing
@@Rooey129 Dyno reads the torque applied to the rollers and uses the roller speed to work out the power. So if drive line loss was the same, the power the dyno reads will be the same in each gear. the torque dyno sees will be higher but the speed lower. Torque numbers my dyno shows are at the rollers.
@5:53 have you done a video on the step vs non step and I missed it? I assume you added this due to another video's recent success, did you notice if it had any impact on sound on a high rpm 4age?
I haven't done a specific video on stepped headers, that singles out the step. but have a few videos testing my various headers. some have a step some not. I don't usually run open headers, so cant say if there is any difference in sound. I would assume there isnt enough firing events on a a 4 cylinder at 10k to make any exotic noises. Check out the Atlantic car on my channel, it has double stepped headers ruclips.net/video/bWNdVy5bNBA/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/Ik7tK_zmZCM/видео.html ruclips.net/video/CM_xHLRQCdg/видео.html have you seen those 2 ? thats the cheap version, i dont have one on my good engine. but is a spec list in description
It depends on how far away from ideal the injection timing is to begin with in a particular setup. I have seen stock configs that gained substantial TQ & power as well as the top end AFR enrichen by as much as .05 lambda which was useful in that engine, by adjusting only injector end angle. Injection timing was not done using the approach in this video.
yeah can change it with rpm and load. the baseline run isn't a fixed angle. was along time since i set it up. but still seems to be pretty much where it needs to be.
@Garage4age how do you know what is the correct angle, do you calculate it somehow or u base on the sheet and later on test on dyno for what suits you most ??
@@alektroks I just test it on dyno. Dont need a dyno though. just adjust the injector timing till get the richest afr. means all the fuel you are injecting is being burnt properly/ better. then go back and retune the afr. even if you gain no power or engine doesn't run any nicer, you will be using less fuel. most stuff will happily run on around 400 end of injection everywhere
OEM used injection timing on part load in order to decrease consumption, HC and CO emission. The goal is to reduce wall wetting. You can also do stratified combustion with a retarded timing. But it works only at low part load.
I did a batch of headers a few year ago. but don't have the time to make them anymore. intake uses bwm throttles, which need to me modified quite a bit to get port spacing right. rest is all custom one off stuff. So short answer is, you cant buy either sorry
@@Garage4age afr is the richest at this these timing.. maybe not that rich but its very close with typical timings…20v st. I suspect i may have some problems but i already swaped/changed injectors, fp, ff.
@@marlo0oty213 might be just what it likes, 20v's are weird haha. if afr is richer and idle speed increases both signs thats what it likes. as you know if the afr goes richer from say 14.7afr it will make more power. so adjusting the injector timing to where its richer, will make it idle faster. lean it back out and if its happy leave it there. tbh i never got around to setting the injector timing on my 20v. its just set at 400. may put it back on dyno and try some stuff with it
@@Garage4age its weird man ive tuned many other different cars but after 2 years of tuning i still can’t tune my own car and the tune is always funny… im like at 40 degrees ign advance mid to high rpm and whats weird is the car is responding on that timing and its 100% synchronized
@@marlo0oty213 have you seen my latest video with the 20v? it liked 200- 250, was all kinda the same across that range. but i do recall it did something around the 70-100 mark as well
Just noticed i screwed up the graph showing the 350 degree injection event, Its at 370 degrees rather than 350 degrees. the whole thing should be to the right 20 degrees. So yeah that injection event is well into to the open intake valve. Inlet valve has been open a long time at this point. It runs 3 - 5.5mm at TDC (360degree) depending on engine rpm (vvti)
Where did all the power go? Mostly because i am running the car up in 3rd gear rather than the usual 1:1 4th gear. As a lot of people have noticed the raw graph gets pretty wiggly in the top end. It seems to be a combo of the dyno and the driveline in this car not loving going over 200kph. Not an engine issue as some people think. Anyway i'm using 3rd gear this time as I can get a better read on what it does right up top.
On a similar note. does anyone want to see a video, on how i get consistent results out of this car? Also ways to fudge / cheat dyno results. I already done a video touching on the dyno side of things, not so much whats on the dyno. or anything else you would like to see. remembering i'm just some guy in a shed and these videos dont make any money haha
Is your dyno braked ?
@@MrJermbob yes it has a 1350nm retarder brake. All the runs a braked ramp runs
Yeah that video about how to tweak dynos around sounds interesting 👍
@@Garage4age Beauty. Love the testing.
hhuuuhhh no 160kw hahahah!!! great stuff dude, i had no idea the fuel injection is made during the exhaust cycle. What exhaust are you using today? Sounds sweet!!
Of note is that when the engine "leans out" in the top end because the EOI is well into valve-open area, actual equivalence ratio has not changed. The amount of fuel and the amount of air going through the engine is exactly the same. The reason it looks like it "leans out" is because less of the O2 is being burned because less fuel is being burned because less fuel is being vaporized.
Just like a misfire that will show sensor-lean because all that unburned O2 went through the engine...but the actual AFR didn't change.
Low pressure port injectors do a pretty shit job at atomizing fuel, which is why the OEMs mostly use around 420° EOI. It puts the fuel on the back of the hot intake valve and ends up with more fuel vaporized when the valve opens. On some engines, I like to use smaller, modern Denso injectors and dial up the fuel pressure. This allows you to shorten the PW, generally results in better atomization, which results in better vaporization, which result in a more efficient calibration.
Conversely, on systems with the injectors not aimed at the back of the valve, but way upstream, like in the DCOE-style throttle body, injector timing can be a nightmare. EOI on a closed valve and no moving air just puts the fuel on the runner wall. Idle and mid can foul plugs in no time, and require a lot more fuel. Fuel needs to be injected into a moving airstream, mimicking a carburetor. This also makes Δ-tau, or transient fuel a nightmare to tune, as a lot of fuel is going to condense on the long port wall as soon as the throttle is opened. Requires not just a big shot on throttle opening, but also requires taking fuel away on throttle closing.
Anyway...great stuff you're doing here.
Thanks for doing all these interesting tests!
Great stuff. Happy to donate any fuel system parts that you require for testing.
Seems I am not the only one here watching maisteer as well! Thanks Garage 4age for great contents!
You have no idea how many people have asked me to do stepped headers, after he put out that video haha
@@Garage4age will you do it tho ?
@@ntwx2137 Did you actually watch the video?
I dont understand how there isnt a 0 more behind your subscriber count. Its well deserved
Not enough stuff blowing up and catching fire
Yes! Another Garage 4age upload. Hopefully there’s more talking in this one!!!
Great comparison! One way to tune it would be to go for the injection angle that requires the least amount of fuel, so that you get the most efficient combustion. Or you aim for the lowest EGT's. This can make tuning a engine a forever task...
Such a clean and simple engine bay. How beautiful!
Those stepped headers sound epic :) i just saw a vid yesterday about someone trying to get that resonance out of his headers and it turned out need to have steps in them - sounds awesome :) Did you pick up any power after stepping them - or its worth any losses just for the sound? :) And yeah - a video about how you get such consistent runs would be great :) along with "cheats" like how hard you strap it down and what tyre pressure does to it and how fast you ramp things and if you have an ambient air temp sensor on the dyno for dyno power corrections n stuff :)
thank you for sharing the great info, especially for including the A/F; it's been my concern if it goes rich or lean depending on combastion effeciency.
Played with injection angles the other day, seems like it makes more of a difference in low load/idle/cruising. Thanks for the video!
Yeah most engines it doesn't do much at wide open. esp if injector duty is high, as they will be open near the whole time anyway
I noticed it makes a big difference to emissions. CO and HCs
@@Garage4age would you be able to redo the test but at steady cruise to see what one gives the lowest injector pulse width with the same hp?
@@aaronkirkbride1057 maybe i will do another video with a mild/stock engine to show these kind of things. I used the starlet for this one, as it actually does stuff at wide open. your average engine, not so much
Thanks Mate
I realized that this engine needs a lot of fuel at the top end, AFR like 12.3 or less
More like a turbo engine.
I was not that in to the injector timing.
Thanks
@juangraniello7626 hey. I intentionally had the afr set a little rich on the baseline. As I knew it was going to go lean when changing the injector timing. Usually run it closer to 13
Why didn't you do some testing with the inlet valve open to the point just before it closes? The rush of intake charge and subsequent VE is enhanced by charge momentum. Injecting fuel onto the back of closed valves has its merit, ie fuel vaporisation, but to stop the flow and then re accelerate it to move the mixture into the cylinder is counter productive. Do another test and move the EOIT to just before the valve closes and see what happens. The idea of using a large injector is fantastic and makes total sense in this experiment. I'm keen to see your new test results. 😀
Hello from France, perfect video as always !
Would be interested to see you closer to 20-25% duty cycle compared to your baseline.
What are the cam specs?
Great content! Thanks for sharing
A good test will be with bigger injectors that will be used in low duty cycle (lower than intake valve duty cycle) . Maybe you will find some diferences in hp there by altering injection timing
they are pretty big already, 980cc running at about 40% at max power, which is under the advertised intake cam duration
I really enjoy your videos (well done)!!! I have an idea given your combination of parts and tuning is really well optimized (though it may not make any better peak power / bit possibly better average power); would be to make a common plenum to go in place of the air filter…..I think this may result in some gains because, in an earlier video you showed it made slightly better power with the hood down on the dyno…..I’m not an expert that can recommend an exact volume / shape and inlet tube diameter / position, but I do know tunnel ram manifolds on a V8 (think pro-stock / comp-eliminator engines), can make better AVG power than stack injection, due to taking advantage of the tertiary waves / resonance (minimizing torque dips that the harmonic tuning of the intake runner length induces)…..this practice is well studied on 1L race bikes / Moto-GP, which may help to give some inspiration if you wanted to research / try a modification like this….keep up the good work!!!
This would be a good F.I., carburetor comparison. The F.I. needs to be tuned at various RPM for timing and volume. Does a carb do a better job of maintaining the power throughout the curve?
would be interesting to see if would run anygood. Ive heard the carb altlantic 4age's run pretty junk on the low end, compared to the efi ones. The fuel map is pretty wild on this thing compared to you average engine. Either way a comparable carb setup would be out of my budget time and money wise, just for a dyno test unfortunately.
@@Garage4age As a general rule... Carbs don't actually do anything better.
@@802Garage haha, i was trying not to say that.
@@Garage4age I've got 45dcoe's on my 160hp bigport. Low end is pretty unhappy, makes standing starts with a TRD gearset tricky!
If someone could loan you a carb setup, dizzy and MSD box for a while it would be great to see solid numbers for all the downsides.
I run 45's on an old GT3 car, and help a local guy with his dcoe 45 7ag. It takes a lot of time to get a good baseline that isn't finicky but both cars start well and have nice crisp low throttle.
I think it's possible but requires a large arsenal of low end jets, accelerator pump jets, and bleed backs. @@mattteee2973
Have you thought about a dual injector set up? Basically adding one in airbox to shoot down trumpet. Then you could run smaller sized injectors with the inner Injector cut back to 40-60% total fuel, or tapered off entirely. You'd have to get the phasing right, and added fuel system complexity, but it could be good for throttle response, atomization, and pulling heat out. Normally not a commenter, but I just read about this.
It would be cool to hear more exhaust setups and see how they affect power. To see if those obnoxious mufflers you see on hondas and subarus are hurting performance.
Just a question, why weren’t you trying more intake oriented timings? Like opening when intake starts or a tad before? Seems interesting to see that. When I was tuning this is what I was doing most of the times. It kind of ideologically makes it in essence closer to chamber injection. Although I agree it makes almost no difference
better off just to find what the engine likes. what works best here is injecting all the fuel before the valve opens, (at wide open). there are things like travel time, fuel mixing etc to consider.
@@Garage4age if injection at open valves is worse, you should also show it for us, maybe you should also do the same tests on different engine
@@BlueCombPL Part of the injection event is on a open valve on the 350 runs. more so than it looks on those graphs, the cam curve is a generic curve not my actual cams, which run a lot of overlap. I could do it with my standard cam engine with injectors at 70-80% duty. but not much would happen. not really worth making another video about. but next time i have something more mild on dyno will try post it up.
Also i just noticed i screwed up the graph showing the 350 injection event. its at 370 rather than 350
@@Garage4age got it, thanks for the reply! I appreciate what you’re doing, me personally, despite doing quite a few tunings myself I’ve never been able to collect such a high quality data and do the comparisons. Thanks!
Thanks!
You and Robot Cantina (unashamed plug but I have given you a plug over there too) are the best grass roots channels for this type of content. Both of you are 10/10 and both of you make no money yet continue to make vids for the love of sharing knowledge.
@@ThePaulv12 Thanks!
inject after exhaust closes but inlet is still open, do the opposite end
Can you do anti reversion exhaust pipe, please :)
Love you man
Great as always
Have you ever tested engine angle? I remember back in the day putting a 4 k on a big angle to aim the intake ports as vertical as possible was supposed to be hidden power.
pretty sure most of the k series guys do the upright to get a better intake and longer intake length. which is where the power comes from rather than the angle of the engine
As the injector timing were later, the afr leaned and power drops..
then what about advancing them?
lets find out if u can extract abit more power improving the baseline injector timing...
✌️
Thank You!!
wonder what happens if you go the other way towards 0 degrees?
Any tips on where to go with this value for a big cam that jerks at low rpm, low load? Maybe it has to do something with the attomization, earlier eoi would increase atomization? Or make puddles in the port? I will try it tommorow, I was wondering if tried it before
The graphs of the AFR seem to have "waves", especially at low rpm. Is it because the intake pulses sucking and pushing the fuel in and out of the intake?
Yeah basically, the intake and exhaust tuning doing weird things down there. is an issue with big cam overlap at low airspeeds. you can see the peaks and dips line up with the bumps in power. the fuel map looks the same, but its quite hard to get spot on since the ve changes so fast. could dial it out with intake and exhaust tuning. but would have to sacrifice power everywhere else to do it. It's kinda a non issue anyway, as it doesn't do it at part throttle and you arent ever at wide open under 3000rpm where its bad.
A video on crank case vacuum. Thought about a little vacuum pump.like what you get on transits. Are they big enough
To bad your not doing all this trial and error testing on a big high hp 2 stroke. Results could a lot more exciting. Maybe a big old water cooled snowmobile engine.
1000 tcat or 800 xcr
Great job, really!
Just curious if you are working on Full group or batch injectors ?
sequential injection. You can see how this engine would have rich / lean cylinders if was running batch fire.
@@Garage4age OK, good to know.
At the time of R25 F1, Renault work with continuous injection on RS25 V10 engine (!).
An hydraulic damper/absorber on your fuel rail will be a good option for smooth AFR ratio values with no pulsing effect.
Niiiicee...but why didn't you try the whole spectrum? Also injection on an open intake valve?
not much point going further if its getting worse in either direction. Part of the injection event on the 350 runs is on open intake valve. the valves are open well before tdc at 360. just noticed I screwed up that graph showing the 350 injection event, its at 370 not 350
Very interresting
great video
how about a video on the effect of changing the fuel injector dead time
i had a problem running the car and the afr was super rich and had to lower the ve numbers substantially to get the car to run .. i found later that the injector dead time was set up for different injectors
injector dead time only really matters where battery voltage is changing. IMO if your voltage is unstable, you need to fix that first and foremost.
Just out of interest would it be possible to to have the injection run like a old mechanical constant flow injection system just to see what happens?
would have to change to injectors around 400cc to do it and keep afr correct, I would assume it wouldn't be as bad running 100% duty (open whole engine cycle) vs 40% in the wrong window. but wouldn't be optimal either.
Do you mean a k-jetronic or CIS(on the USA)? 😎
@@dejanmrvos5422 was more thinking hilbourn type as the constant flow
@@Bigcountry_littlelegs Part throttle metering is why Hilborn isn't great for non racing applications.
Merc-Benz & Porsche used a modified diesel jerk type pump for petrol injection in the 1970s. Thing is the pump was tuned for the engine by big factories with lots of capital behind them.
They were very successful. The throttle response from that setup was impressive but tuning them would be fairly difficult since the plungers are opened and closed by a camshaft and roller follower within the pump which directly controls plunger lift therefore discharge volume.
The whole setup is basically fixed since fluid is incompressible, meaning a change in timing and fuel volume would require pump disassembly for every change.
It's for this reason that EFI is so adaptable.
I must say, if you ever drove a 911 2.7 with mechanical fuel injection it would make you smile form ear to ear.
The fun factor is very high.
@ThePaulv12 Yeah, I know hilbourne is a race only setup. I was just curious if it would make more or less or the same power at WOT.
yeah, factory mechanical setups are nice but would be a pain on the more heavily modified engines.
Do a power run in each gear to show "power" doesn't change, just the wheel torque.
It wont make the same power in every gear. well all the gears apart from 4th will probably be similar. 4th being the 1:1 gear in this box, so the layshaft / countershaft is just along for the ride, not driven. hence why its down on power compared to normal being run in 3rd this time. But yeah could show it just to show how the torque multiplies with gearing
Power = ((Torque * Rpm) / 5252) * Ratio . So if you change the ratio of the input to the output you are changing the power
@@Rooey129 Dyno reads the torque applied to the rollers and uses the roller speed to work out the power. So if drive line loss was the same, the power the dyno reads will be the same in each gear. the torque dyno sees will be higher but the speed lower. Torque numbers my dyno shows are at the rollers.
It does change. It was done xx times a d tested
@@Garage4agehow much power does the layshaft rob?
With an injection phase of 500 degrees, we got more power and a leaner mixture. It was worth trying to add fuel at maximum power speed.
Nope, if O2 sensor shows a leaner mixture when fuel amount is the same, then it is not fully burnt, which is not optimal.
@5:53 have you done a video on the step vs non step and I missed it?
I assume you added this due to another video's recent success, did you notice if it had any impact on sound on a high rpm 4age?
I haven't done a specific video on stepped headers, that singles out the step. but have a few videos testing my various headers. some have a step some not. I don't usually run open headers, so cant say if there is any difference in sound. I would assume there isnt enough firing events on a a 4 cylinder at 10k to make any exotic noises. Check out the Atlantic car on my channel, it has double stepped headers ruclips.net/video/bWNdVy5bNBA/видео.html
would you do a how to video how you built your motor? like on a budget and one with decent parts
ruclips.net/video/Ik7tK_zmZCM/видео.html ruclips.net/video/CM_xHLRQCdg/видео.html have you seen those 2 ? thats the cheap version, i dont have one on my good engine. but is a spec list in description
Great video in which the results speak for themselves. In short if your looking for power with injector timing your wasting your time.
It depends on how far away from ideal the injection timing is to begin with in a particular setup. I have seen stock configs that gained substantial TQ & power as well as the top end AFR enrichen by as much as .05 lambda which was useful in that engine, by adjusting only injector end angle. Injection timing was not done using the approach in this video.
Burnout video!
Or mud Skids in the Hilux!
Did you see the video Maisteer did on F1 sounding exhausts?
hint hint.. :D
Как привязана линия фаз (от 0° до 720°) к положению поршня? В каких местах поршень находится в верхней мёртвой точке?
What was the baseline configuration?
Can you adjust timing based on engine rpm?
yeah can change it with rpm and load. the baseline run isn't a fixed angle. was along time since i set it up. but still seems to be pretty much where it needs to be.
@Garage4age how do you know what is the correct angle, do you calculate it somehow or u base on the sheet and later on test on dyno for what suits you most ??
@@alektroks I just test it on dyno. Dont need a dyno though. just adjust the injector timing till get the richest afr. means all the fuel you are injecting is being burnt properly/ better. then go back and retune the afr. even if you gain no power or engine doesn't run any nicer, you will be using less fuel. most stuff will happily run on around 400 end of injection everywhere
@@Garage4age do you have any social media where i can contact you directly?
@@alektroks im on instagram, same name
You state the baseline runs but what was the EOI degree for them?
425-450 as rpm increases. something that i set years ago.
@@Garage4age thanks mate! ❤️
Cheers
OEM used injection timing on part load in order to decrease consumption, HC and CO emission. The goal is to reduce wall wetting. You can also do stratified combustion with a retarded timing. But it works only at low part load.
How do we buy your headers and intake setup?
I did a batch of headers a few year ago. but don't have the time to make them anymore. intake uses bwm throttles, which need to me modified quite a bit to get port spacing right. rest is all custom one off stuff. So short answer is, you cant buy either sorry
Baseline is 360°?
@GustavoWorldCar 425 ramping to 450. I set it a long time ago , but still pretty close to where it needs to be
Baseline,how much degree?
425 ramping to 450 at high rpm. Set it along time ago, still seems about right
Your too close to duty cycle is too , you need to be around 30% max and retest:) .
What about EOI when Intake Valve Close?
350 intake valve open for part of the event. 450 intake valve would be closed
Do you have any stainless pipe so I can make twin pipes?
sure
😊
Its weird i get maybe like 50rpm bump on idle when im at 70-100 injection timing any idea guys
what does the afr do?
@@Garage4age afr is the richest at this these timing.. maybe not that rich but its very close with typical timings…20v st. I suspect i may have some problems but i already swaped/changed injectors, fp, ff.
@@marlo0oty213 might be just what it likes, 20v's are weird haha. if afr is richer and idle speed increases both signs thats what it likes. as you know if the afr goes richer from say 14.7afr it will make more power. so adjusting the injector timing to where its richer, will make it idle faster. lean it back out and if its happy leave it there.
tbh i never got around to setting the injector timing on my 20v. its just set at 400. may put it back on dyno and try some stuff with it
@@Garage4age its weird man ive tuned many other different cars but after 2 years of tuning i still can’t tune my own car and the tune is always funny… im like at 40 degrees ign advance mid to high rpm and whats weird is the car is responding on that timing and its 100% synchronized
@@marlo0oty213 have you seen my latest video with the 20v? it liked 200- 250, was all kinda the same across that range. but i do recall it did something around the 70-100 mark as well
i dont believe you are doing it right. i do 230-360 eoi.
every engine is different. what your engine setup and injector duty cycle ?