Dovetails By Hand - Layout Tips & Tricks
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- Опубликовано: 21 июн 2024
- Dovetails By Hand - Layout Tips & Tricks. In this video Rob Cosman shows you how to layout through dovetails. This video is a companion to our through dovetails video which shows you step-by-step how to cut dovetails by hand. In this video Rob teaches you all of his tips and tricks for laying out perfect through dovetails.
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*TOOLS ROB USES IN THE VIDEO
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- DIVIDERS: robcosman.com/collections/lay...
- DOVETAIL MARKING GAUGE: robcosman.com/collections/mar...
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From the first video I saw of yours I have been following, when I learned from that video that you went to BYU I have felt a brotherhood with you, I have loved doing woodworking all my life, thanks for your good examples and experience and tools
I am always impressed with your teaching style no matter how many of your dovetail videos I’ve watched. Thank you for sharing your passion!
I’ve been making dovetails for over 40 year’s and watching you and your videos for at least 20 years. Yet I never fail to learn from you. Please keep these videos coming.
You keep watching and i will keep filming
This video easily has the greatest RUclips thumbnail I've ever seen. On a more relevant note, the videos that Mr. Cosman has uploaded have improved the fit and appearance of my dovetails exponentially and I am grateful to him for that.
The greatest thumbnail of all times? Not sure about that. Glad you find them useful
Just found you a few weeks ago. What you are doing probably saves lives. You are a wonderful amazing person. So happy you are doing what you are!
So i picked up your channel in search of dovetails. Heard and saw "most" of your instructions. My first attempt...looked like a first attempt although i did not trash it. I wstched another video, a different one as i did not save the first one. Here i started numbering my attempts. Better but still a lot of rework to make it fit. Another video and my third attempt was fair. My fourth was going great. Good accurate layout and i was excited! I marked the pins and then proceeded to cut them out. Yep, you guessed it. I forgot to mark the waste! Lesson learned. I found the original video and saved it. Still using a backsaw until i get a proper saw. And using a coping saw until a fret arrives. The miscut pin joint was used and was actually my best fit yet. Thanks for your teaching videos!
Learned how to do dovetails from you many years ago and although it was only a 4 or 5 hour class I learned so much...it was like drinking from a fire hose.
how are your dovetails today?
Thanks Rob! I love your explanation of the divider layout trick. I've watched you use it 100 times, but this is the first time you've gone through the logic to it.
I don't do dovetails often, so I find myself back here for a refresher each time. Thanks Rob.
Rob is the master listen to him, I'm a master electrician for 50 years yet so many don't listen always time to do it over but "never enough time to do it right".
Thanks for your words, Michael
I have yet to actually try cutting a dovetail by hand, I have at this point purchased 90% of the tooling to make it happen, Now to get over the fear ha ha ha.... Watching all of your videos has given me much assurance and confidence that it will work!!! Thanks ROB!!!!!!!
This is the best explanation of dovetail layout that I've seen.
This is pure gold. If my saved videos list could have a top spot, this would be it. I just love simple yet effective stuff that's also quick and precise. I just wish I saw this like a month ago, before doing my first joint ever :D
Thank You Rob… Suddenly dovetail layout makes sense!
You went through this process slowly enough with detailed explanations, and it all made sense to me!
Especially the layout with the dividers, many show what they know and how to do but it all happens so fast without the logic behind what is happening and then I am lost!
Great Job!
Thank You again!
I enjoy your style. I've done 2 dovetails at 67 and they look as if a 3rd grader did them. I'm using pine to learn, and a Japanese saw. Maybe I'll graduate to middle school before I die.
My saw comes with a Phd! :)
Thank you Rob, always a treasure to watch you teach this important joint and how to cut by hand.
Thanks so much!! You are a great teacher. Your method of teaching is wonderful.
👏😉
Thanks Rob, hopefully I’ll get some saw time this winter to practice all you’ve taught me !
Gracias Rob, muy buen video!! Agradezco el tiempo que tomaste para compartir tus conocimiento y experiencia, realmente son de mucha utilidad para quienes nos estamos iniciando en la carpintería. Un fuerte abrazo!!!
I WISH layout was my issue with dovetails... my issue is with stock prep. Just can’t have perfect-looking dovetails unless you have perfectly milled stock... perfectly flat and perfectly square. Getting to that level of accuracy with my beloved hand tools has proven to be an elusive goal, and I can’t bring myself to spend so much money on a jointer and a planer, nor to deal with the noise. I’ll just have to keep practicing! Thanks for the great videos, Rob!
Can't wait to get my Cosman Fret saw in the mail and try some of the techniques. Excellent customer service Rob and that earned you a customer for life! As soon as I can afford more tools you will hear from me again. Hopefully I can perfect this method and make you proud!
Thanks for the great feedback John, glad to have you as a customer.
You're a gifted teacher. Thank you.
Wow, thank you!
I realize there's a "routine" for each component - sharpening a plane blade in the middle of a flattening video, etc. - but I've never (or so rarely I can't recall) seen someone go from one task to another so smoothly, teaching with every moment of dialog, and treating experienced folks with brief reminders while the same brief moment is a gold mine of clear, step-by-step instruction for the inexperienced. No assumptions on audience, no delays with just getting on with it. Amazing!
Excellent work, your explanations make it seem easy enough for kindergarten kids! I love that Apron!!!!
wonderfully explained!
This was the first video I watched that truly taught me how dividers worked. Thank you.
Glad it helped!
I like this layout procedure, its very simple and you get consistent results every time. Its nice when you get to understand why we do things the way we do them !!!
Glad you like it! I think its the best method
great video, these dovetails are great, well taught ,easy to follow.
Thanks so much for your expert tutelage, finally understood the dividers.
This is a fantastic video. I now understand. Thanks so much Rob.
Exactly the information I needed. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
All in all, it's really a matter of practice for me. Correct layout, proper sawing technique, and then removing waste without damaging the surrounding fibers is really what it's taking. I'm getting better with fewer gaps, nicks, dents, etc, so improvement is happening! I have a Lie Nielsen Dovetail saw - 15 tooth - a Cosman dovetail gauge 1:6, and various chisels, marking gauges, and so on.
Dimensions aren't much of a problem, and I try to use some basic rules for half-pins as you pointed out.
But still...practice, practice, practice!
Keep at it you will get it
You truly are taking my wood working to a new level
Very helpful video, thanks. For those new to dovetailing the 1/2 pin "designation" refers to the SHAPE of the pin, not the SIZE of the pin.
Thanks Rob!
Thanks for watching and commenting
thanks for all the info
I'm NOT Rob Coman but I love his shop!
Excellent
Thanks so much
👍👏😉
Nice job as usual, Rob. Well done. I admire tour enthusiasm, and I'll carry your message as long as I can.
really appreciate that
Beautiful！
Thanks for the info Rob! 😃👍🏻👊🏻
your are welcome
As usual, great piece of instruction. Many gems of good guidance. I take it that the magnetic rail on the dovetale marking out board that I sent photos of is a no-goer. It works great for me. I still need the wheel marking gauge for other jobs, but it just removes a point of potential error.
You method is great. If it works for you stick with it. I just dont think I want to do a dramatic change to my current method.
Great instruction, Rob~! This explanation of the layout has tremendously helped my understanding. For some reason, determining the half-pin size confused the heck out of me, but now it's all too clear. Thanks so much~!!
Glad to help, thanks for watching
Hi Bob, you do a great job. Thanks for all your help.
Thankyou
I'm dovetailing my maple vanity apron because of your mentorship Rob....and thrilled with my list of stuff to buy from your store in hopes of giving back what i cannot pay....
Great tips as usual.
Thanks for watching!
That's a lot of good information! I've only cut dovetails once so far and was hooked on the process and the challenge it presents! There's a few projects that I'm going to be working on this winter, including a wooden tool tote. I wasn't sure about the size needed for dovetails on that, but I like your explanation for your travelling tool box with the pins the same size as the tails (21:05) and will go with that!!
As always, I love your videos and the details in all of your explanations! Thank you so much!!!
Found it very interesting. I always did spacing with a calculator!
I’m excited, I’ve been saving up for one of your saws. I will own a Cosman dovetail saw soon and it will be one of my, if not most prized tool
Excellent video, Rob. I’ve been using your layout method for my dovetails and am pleased with the way they look, but had not thought about the structural aspects of them at all. Good explanation of that here!
Glad yu liked it
That was a very helpful video Rob. Thank you! I made my first dovetail this afternoon
and can see after watching the video that I have to change things a bit.
At the risk of over-thinking this (I’m an engineer after all), it seems the half pin widths you typically settle on is about 2/3 - 4/5 the width of your half pins. That’s what I’ve been aiming for since I learned this technique from you. By the way folks - these videos are superb, but let me encourage anyone thinking of attending one of Rob’s “Training the hand workshop”
to JUST DO IT. The nearly one on one training experience over 5 days is unmatched by anything else I’ve seen.
You are the man Tom. We are working on 2021 TTH schedule///looking for you to come back to one of them
Count on it!
Super video!!!
Call me bird killer
Great job
Thnaks
Very informative. All of your videos are really good.
Glad you like them!
Thanks Rob - Great Video. I actually saw this pop up live while i was in my Garage cutting dovetails myself - so it was great to participate why listening/watching. The issue i often have, is with the mitred dovetails - getting the mitre to be tight and accurate is hit-and-miss with me...
Actually what i was looking for. Im thinking in make small wood boxes for most of my tools
Good idea
I find your video content is brilliant as too your teaching
thank you sir!
Thanks for this video, the dovetail has never been clearer to me 🐞
Glad it was helpful!
Your layout method is a joy for someone who loved geometry as a kid. I also appreciate your emphasis on desibgn. This kind of layout could be done strictly by a formula, in which case it might match the laout perfectly an lack in aesthetics.
At the centerpiece its still al by eye, but the dividers allow you to easily create symmetry
The part that leaves me dumbfounded is anything involving math. Yet I like woodworking... it can be a struggle. Thanks for the informative video!
Hi Rob, excellent video as always. Any idea when you will be getting stock of the IBC plane irons?
Could you in one of your videos, show how to make the dovetail markers? Many thanks. Enjoy your videos.
I struggle with getting the spacing of the pin the same at the top and bottom of the tail board. It’s impatience and rushing the cut if I’m honest, but definitely something I need to develop, great video as always, I really do need to get one of those sawtooth knives of yours they look excellent
they work great, will improve your layout
Thanks for a great video. I seem to struggle with gaps on the inside face of the joint the most, but maybe slightly off parallel might be some of the problem.
where exactly are the gaps?
@@RobCosmanWoodworking HI Rob, Thanks for getting back to me. The gaps are on the inside edges, occasionally at the top of the joints, where the pins don't come through enough. I think the two are similar. Not square enough cuts maybe. My new saw (Just made my first one) is helping. So did your advice on lay out (two boards together etc). Thanks for your great videos, they really do help us sprigs. Cheers pal
Rob (or anyone really) - From an aesthetic standpoint, for the same thickness of stock, 3/4, but a width that is less, say 2 1/2 instead of 3 1/2, would you recommend three tails or two tails? I am leaning toward 2. I was pleased to find out that Penses Spices doesn't make spice racks for their wonderful spices. It gives me an excellent project for my wife this Yule.
Since I don't have 10,000 hours of sawing practice in my arm, (10,000 hours of practice is frequently considered the amount of practice needed for mastery or expertise of a skill), one tip I picked up from another RUclipsr woodworker is to lay out and saw some practice dovetails on a scrap piece of wood immediately before having a go at your "real" dovetails. I find doing that does help in getting your body in to the correct position for sawing, and helps you focus on your saw's position vis-a-vis your layout lines for (hopefully) making square and plumb cuts.
I would agree with that approach
Great vid and background Rob! Question - when cutting out the pin waste at 24:23, and to avoid having to cut at the 6 degree angles, why not just turn the board so that the angles become vertical and you're basically cutting the 6-degree straight down? Saw Tom Fidgen do that on the one of his vids and thought it made alot of sense. Perhaps that's cheating in the classical sense but it sure makes my line cutting easier!
The hardest part for me is keeping the tail board secure when marking the top of the pin board. I set the pin board in the vice and set the height of the pin board level with my 5 1/2 plane as you do in your videos. When I try to hold the tail board to make my marks on the pin board using the Cosman marking knife (the one with the blade the same as your dovetail saw), the tail board shifts or moves on me almost every time. I don't have a skew plane so I have tried the painters tape trick. I recall you mention automotive painters tape, what I use is just the regular painters tape. Can you be more specific as to the type or brand of tape you use? Maybe it will provide a better edge to butt up against.
Ok just started this woodworking thing. I'm making river tables and I'd like to make my own legs. I'm thinking u shaped out of nice maple or black walnut or whatever. So how thick can you do dove tails??? Can I do 2x4's or is it limited to thinner stock???
Thank you!
Please let us know where I can buy the material for a a worktop like yours.
Sawing strictly on the line would be newbie flaw. Comes with experience I guess. I haven't tried the dovetail saws you use and I only own few pull saws, so maybe that has something to do with it
Hi Rob. What are your thoughts on the magnetic dovetail markers, that hold your saw plate straight as you begin and continue your cut? I have one and am alternating between using one and doing freehand during my practice sessions. Curious if you have tried them and if so, your thoughts. Thank you, Danny S.
Do we follow the line in cutting the pins or just under cut a fraction of mili?
The tails holding the stress (hanging wall, drawer -- as you mentioned) always seemed obvious to me. But, what's not obvious is in the case of jewelry boxes, chests ... Is it purely a subjective thing with tails or pins going on faces or sides of boxes? It looks as though you prefer tails on the front/back of boxes... Thanks for the videos.
That’s a correct observation. If the structural factor is removed, I tend to place the dovetails on the piece that will have the most visibility.
You know your a dovetail master when you can guess on the deviders an hit bingo first try
The ideas and reasoning behind the steps are helpful. Thx.
Wow. "I see!", said the blind man.
beginners luck!
Paring shoulders is where i struggle the most.
I've finally landed on using my chisel to dig a little ditch on top of the baseline on the sidegrain, and then registering my saw against the resulting tiny wall.
Any suggestions on this process?
(I should check to see if you have a video on this before submitting...)
Im looking for more unique hand cut dovetails... Any good ones out there? I was looking for characters or arcade icons as dovetails
What would be your recommendation on dovetails for a blanket chest with a height of 25?
the "Dovetail Guru"
thanks Andy
👍👍👍
My marking guage uses a Round head screw to hold the cutter on. I cant just drop the cutter&tighten the nut. Where can I get a flat head screw with the right tpi?
Hi Mr Cosman, I am x military as well but Brit x submariner of 15 years and now offshore oil /gas/renewables but coming to the end of would be nearly 50 years at sea in some shape of other and love your vids as I do have a plan to start some kind of small ( very small ) wood workshop producing some kind of bespoke outdoor furniture.I have all the gear and some idea but nothing to what I see in your shop so I have to ask , apart from the pleasing feeling "I done that", self-gratification that must be felt from looking at a joint that's been hand-built ,can something like dovetails be done neater with something like a Leigh jig than by hand or is it just a question of speed to complete
Using a dovetailing jig will make perfect, tight, dovetails in a fraction of the time you need to cut them by hand: that's *after* you have become slick at using it, and *after* you have set it all up. So, for mass-production (eg needing to make 4 or 6 drawers -16 or 24 corners) and selling to a customer who isn't going to be able to appreciate machine-cut from hand-cut, it makes sense.
On the other hand, *if* you have cut enough dovetails by hand to become proficient, and you have only a small number to do, or if you are restoring or copying an antique, the hand-cut method is better, because it actually looks as if it has been cut by hand, and if that is what the customer wants, they will appreciate that fact.
On top of that, you have to balance the satisfaction/frustration of tackling a 'challenge'.
To those in the know, machine-cut dovetails will always look machine-cut, even though they are perfectly good, strong, joints.
I once spent an evening with some friends listening to a reproducing piano. The owner put in one roll after another, and the piano played one virtuoso piece after another, perfectly. No-one felt like applauding. Why? - Because no human skill had been involved in the playing. It makes no sense, but what we appreciate and value has something to do with the amount of skill and effort that we think went into it.
Here is a video by someone who has made a living from hand-work. You might find it interesting. (He speaks Hungarian, only in the first few seconds!)
ruclips.net/video/vKuy3NdLhlE/видео.html
Just realized my divider is awful. Loved the idea of multiple dividers so they are set for the remaining joints
helps a lot and makes things easy
👍🏻
Great explanations...As I go through your teachings especially over the last couple months, I was wondering something. Given how critical it is for those first tail board saw cuts to be perfectly perpendicular, would there be value in making a similar cut with your marking knife as you do to mark the pins? I am thinking maybe using a square on your marking line and do a light couple passes with the saw marking knife to create a shallow kerf enough to “hold’ the dovetail saw. Make sense or not worth the extra step?
Sounds reasonable to me (very much an amateur). Have you tried it out? I think what I struggle more with isn't getting the top of the cut perpendicular but keeping it so all the way down the cut! Possibly says something about my saw set up?
To mark the beginning of the cut and the saw perfectly follow the line marked with the knife what I have done is to mark with the saw a very small cut that only allows me to mark the width of the blade, then re-mark another line at right angles parallel to the first so that the saw takes out material and creates a guide furrow of the width of the blade. It is laborious but it works XP
Thats actually a very good cheat, Col Luther shows folks who cant seem to get the perpendicular cut down. Instead of the saw he uses a square and an awl or the scratch pin from a combination square to scratch a perpendicular like to set the saw in
I like to lay out the spacing of my dovetails by eye and not measure in any way. I try to get them fairly even, but I feel the slight variations, though not obvious, are another step that adds to the human touch. However, I do use a shop made marker to layout the slopes of the tails.
I like to make them appear with the precision of a machine but the finesse of “by hand”. To each his own.
I've wondered why when you put the rebate on the tail board, you still use the full thickness for marking the pin board. Wouldn't that result in proud pins and change the dimensions slightly?
It changes the dimension by the depth of the rebate which is about 3 shavings (6000 of an inch)
I'm curious Rob. Can you tell me the type of material you used on those drawer sides. it looks like painted white wood, or was it something else. Once again thank you for the great video.
Its aspen
Unless you meant the small drawer, that was Holly.
So, I think for me, the last point you make in the video, at 23:34, about cutting perfectly perpendicular and parallel to maintain exact sizing on the two faces of the tails board is where I’m failing. As Rick Roades said in his comment, practice practice practice. And slow down, and focus more.
Yes that is critical
If you make your half-pins only ¼” how do you handle drawer and box bottoms? Probably worth a video on that.
Thanks. And stay safe.
Eric in Ann Arbor
Good idea, I will pass it on to COL Luther
I have that same question
Hi Rob - Any ideas on an alternative method that doesn't use a skew plane? The are very difficult to get hold of at the moment.
Hi Ozwald, Rob explained an alternative method during a live show.
You can use masking tape. You can see here: ruclips.net/video/OuKakop0F5Y/видео.html
A good "poor" alternative.
@@animalivaganti360 Thank you!
OZ I show you an alternative to the skew in my video on perfect dovetails on your first try. You clamp a straight edge to the board instead of cutting a rabit. Watch the video for details
@@RobCosmanWoodworking Thank you, much appreciated!
Unrelated, but I have a bit of extra money and am considering buying a joinery plane. Either a router plane, shoulder plane, or tongue and groove plane. I don’t really use power tools, so can’t do grooves nor dados with table saw. Currently have #5 1/2, #7, and low angle block plane. Thanks.
go with the router plane
Ive had issues with the whole joint being too tight or too loose. And I think its something with the marking gauge off the saw thickness setting.
That's a very real possibility. Make sure you hold the gauge face flat against the say, do not let it tip
@@RobCosmanWoodworking does the cutter being closer or further away from the saw plate have a play in it also? I guess I'll just have to do some test and try to find the errors. The layout technique and offset method always works. Its almost impossible for the joint not to go together.
Is there a video for cutting the grove in the bottom of a dovetail box so the grove does not show?
It is mentioned as part of this video:
ruclips.net/video/vKuy3NdLhlE/видео.html
So, I modified what you told me to do about using the ruler and clamps. I bought a pair of inexpensive spring clamps, put the ruler on one side and clamped... and quickly discovered that the clamps dimpled the wood on the opposite side. So, I grabbed two pieces of cut off material that I wouldn’t care about being dimpled, moved them back away about 1/4” from the marking gauge end, and clamped the work piece between the two pieces of scrap. I also angled the clamps so I could fit the marking gauge on the material. It kept the piece from moving around on the pins board, and didn’t dimple the work piece any more.
Sounds great. Good problem solving
I haven't seen any dovetail joints used on boards that meet at a 60degree angle... only square [90degree] joints.
Any reason for this, aside being 'difficult'?
Its not that difficult. Very doable
@@RobCosmanWoodworking Thanks for that. I'll have a think about 'how to' go about it more.
I am trying to make a small box with pine and I'll be honest, I butchered my dovetails. I really tried to be careful with layout and chiseling but the baseline still get s crushed. I will do as the man says and start over. No sense in continuing at this point! :)
I can´t to get rid of the gap at the bottom. No matter how careful I am laying it out I more or less always get a small hairine gap.
What am I doing wrong? I bothers me alot and as I can´t understand on my on why I keep doing the same mistake over and over so please... =)
Gap at the bottom of what? send me a picture at robswebmaster@robcosman.com so I can evaluate it
What gets me and maybe its because I don't fully understand the why you have to but the whole offset one way n cut the other side(or the same side?) And have trouble feeling like I get it right...?
Think of it this way. If you did not offset, when you made the sockets for your tails they would be too wide my one saw kerf on either side of the socket. Offsetting gets rid of this problem and makes the tail fit perfectly into the socket
Perhaps this will help. The objective is to mark the PIN board using the TAIL board kerfs. You will be scribing the edges of each pin. If you think about the pins, you need to offset the tail board kerfs such that you define the pin necessary to fill the socket which is the complete gap in the tail board. So, (a) offset the TAIL board to the left and mark the left side of the PINS and (b) offset the TAIL board to the right and mark the right side of the PINS....the pins need to be increased on each side to fill the socket between the tails.
Do you ever cut dovetails with a router and router jig?
Never