Sorry to be blunt, but I can't believe how dense and clueless people commenting here are. Mario Bros and Pac Man are digitally directed games, Mario uses left and right directions only, Pac Man only uses up, down, left, and right - not even any diagonals. What person uses those games to test an analog controller?! The specialty of the 5200 controller is that it is analog, these guys pretend they are making a new analog controller but then never show it working as an analog controller. How can you not notice that when watching the video?
exactly. i wanna see them play missle command and centipede with it. i use the interface thing that lets you use genesis controllers with a 5200 and i use the track ball or og 5200 controller for some analog games but i really wanna see someone crack that riddle
I still have my original 5200. Yes the controllers were the weak link in the system. My brother and I became experts at repairing them back in the day. Still a very cool and very expensive system back then. Still one of my favorites!!!!
The only problem I can see is that games used thin plastic overlays to tell you what the keypad buttons did, so you'd have to either design the controller to fit the original overlays or provide new ones that are compatible with the redesigned one. Or remember what all 12 buttons did.
Ben, please, PLEASE...make this controller available for sale. I could really use one. I miss using my Atari 5200. When I think about using it, I stop and think, and remember. The controllers are atrocious. 😔 pleaae....help!
I'll second that! I have both models of the 5200 - the 4 controller port version and the 2 port version. I even have a 2600 to 5200 cartridge adaptor. But, I have NO CONTROLLERS THAT WORK! I can't play them anymore :(
The first 5200 with the "funky" switch box was a neat feature. One, it auto-switched to the game signal (from the tv signal), eliminating the need to get up and reach behind the tv. Also, having a single cable go from the box to the tv meant they could provide an extra long cable (with a convenient wire-wrap on the bottom) so you could sit comfortably on your couch instead of having to crouch in front of the tv or have multiple wires strung across your living room. Atari didn't pitch this as the replacement to the 2600, but the "Cadillac" model. As such, it had to look nice (and it looks stunning when cleaned up) and also not leave any clutter- hence the controller storage. I have most every classic console, and the 5200 is the only one that looks nice in your entertainment center (being all sleek, shiny, black-and-silver) and doesn't look "old" alongside a modern receiver, blu-ray player, PS4, etc.
The 5200 was the first console I bought myself (got the 2600 as a Christmas gift). Worked a lot of hot days detassling to buy it with and managed to get the last one the local Target store had. :D
For sure there is a market for these controllers. As others have said, you didn't allow for the use of the overlays for those games that did come with them. Also you really need to test your analog programming with a few games that are very tricky to get working in all directions even with stock and good working 5200 controllers. Those games are Popeye, Kangaroo, Miner 2049er, the sequel known as Bounty Bob Strikes back and Gyruss. Also I would be interested to know if you did a composite video mod on it to get the gameplay footage at the end on your Dell monitor there or how you got around the RF on that? But these are the kinds of videos I originally subscribed to see on the TBHS and it is very bittersweet to see this stuff again on the sunset of Ben leaving...
All of the 5200 games that are Trak-Ball compatible will work well with analog joysticks. Speaking of Gyruss, there's a 5200 specific version that has never been officially released. For whatever reason, the commercial version Parker Bros. released was just a port of the Atari 8-bit computer version.
The original controller accommodated both left-handed and right-handed players. Funny how in this new, enlightened age of making things accessible we expect left-handed players to just "suck-it-up" and adapt to a single controller layout for everyone. Also, the main beef against the 5200 stick was that it was analog while most games of the era (like Pac-Man) worked better with a digital joystick. I'm surprised you didn't also include a D-pad as an alternate control scheme. Multiple third parties sold adapters that would turn a standard digital stick into a 5200 compatible controller.
I love these type of videos. You guys solve a well known problem, and show the solution process from beginning to end. The process is educational and informative. Quite exciting for a nerd like me! I also think this controller should be taken to market. The 5200 was a decent console that was plagued by awful controllers. Would love to see more similar videos in the future!
The thumbnail made me think this was going to only be about the controllers, and I thought about not watching. Thanks for doing a teardown of the console and talking about it, that made the whole thing more interesting overall.
Ben and Felix, there are loads of 5200 owners who would buy that. A lot are over at AtariAge and also in various Facebook groups. However, the true holy grail of a project, and I hope you both would consider doing this, would be to create a retrofix PCB kit for the CX52 joystick that would replace the flex circuit in them. You could take that self-centering analog joystick mechanism you used and replace the existing analog stick with it. And you could use dome switches - which Dan Kramer's CX53 Trak-Ball Controller uses - attached to the PCB so that the mushy fire buttons and keypad buttons would work properly. Essentially turning a stock CX52 into the CX52L that wasn't released. You guys would be 5200 gods! Take my money! If you guys really want to play 5200 games, get the AtariMax SD Cartridge Adapter. It rocks. If you want to mod the 5200 further, there's 2 different RGB mods available, with the VBXE from Europe being the most expensive option but with the most firepower; the SOPHIA - or is it SOFIA? - is a plug-in chip option. And you could use the Dual POKEY mods used on Atari 8-bit computers and use them in the 5200 for "stereo" [dual mono] sound. As for Pac-Man, there's a much better version done in recent years by Tep392 called "Pac-Man Arcade". If you search a little bit, you can find ways of buying it on cart, or you could load the ROM in the AtariMax SD Adapter. Finally, a couple of things about the 5200 chips. Most Atari 8-bits, the 5200, and the 7800 all use Atari's custom 6502C "Sally" CPU. From what I can see, it appears that that particular one in the 5200 in your video was made by Rockwell. Atari bought very little from MOS Technology after Commodore acquired them. MOS actually asked Al Alcorn at Atari Inc. to buy the company to keep themselves out of Commodore's hands but Warner nixed that idea. MOS granted Atari a license to the 6502 upon condition of ordering 50k CPUs - actually, 6507s - from MOS. Atari ended up mainly purchasing their 6502s from Synertek and Rockwell. The 5200 doesn't have a PIA because it doesn't have an SIO Port. It also doesn't have the built-in Light Pen/Gun support that the Atari 8-bit computers have [including the much later XE Game System], or a larger ROM to support those extra goodies. The POKEY reads the joystick ports and also does the audio. In the 2600 VCS, the RIOT handles the joysticks while the TIA handles graphics and sound. Awesome video! Now, about that potential CX52 retrofit kit... :)
Some of the many, many dedicated pong machines from the first generation of consoles had analog sticks (usually non-centering) instead of paddle dials. My first ever videogame console was one of those--it was a Unisonic Olympian 2600 (yes), and it used a later-generation General Instruments pong chip that allowed moving the paddles in two dimensions; also had a couple of target-shooting modes that didn't use a light gun but involved moving a cursor on the screen. I didn't play it much because it broke after about a week. But I remember that the box proudly touted the joysticks as OMNI-DIRECTIONAL CONTROLS.
Hey! Can you build a version of the NES Zapper that works on modern televisions? Or take an AimTrak USB light gun and hack it to work on the NES and then use the AimTrak gun's sensor bar with the TV? I might want to use it for my new AVS console! That one is HDMI-only.
That would be quite the challenge given how the NES zapper is designed to work. You'd probably have an easier time with the SNES Super Scope, because it works slightly differently... But because of how those light guns worked in general I'm not sure you could really create a version that would work in a way the console could actually understand. Would be an interesting project if you could though...
Probably you'd need to use IR beacons and a camera (like the Wii remote and most modern light guns) to determine where the gun is pointing, and then use the position data, along with picture data from the console's video output, to virtually sample the light level of that area of the screen, and feed it back to the console. It could probably be relatively easy on traditional hardware that has a true composite output. For something like RetroUSB AVS (a modern, FPGA-based reimplementation of the NES hardware) this would be complicated somewhat by the fact that that console doesn't have a composite output - the light gun would need to sample picture data from HDMI instead. The HDMI signal from those PLCC machines is probably low enough in latency that it'd still work. As for the SNES Super Scope - I'm not sure how that's easier. As with the NES Zapper you need to use position data to determine when the console thinks it's drawing the part of the frame where the light gun is pointed. An implementation for HDMI-only systems like Analogue Super NT might be simpler than an HDMI Zapper, since the light gun would only need to know the timing of the frames (and adjust that to produce an approximation of the console's true frame timing) as opposed to sampling picture data from specific pixels in the frame... But an analog-signal-path implementation would be almost the same either way.
Tetsujin The two work quite differently though. A game using the NES zapper flashes a bright square for a frame independently for each target, and when the zapper detects such a bright region the console checks on which frame it happened. Since only one target's square lit up on any given frame, the console can determine which target the zapper saw because of which frame it responded in. The zapper has absolutely no sense of what it's pointing at though. Point it at a bright light and pull the trigger while hit detection frames are visible and it'll register a hit even though you weren't even pointing it at the screen. The Super Scope meanwhile is explicitly identical in function to a light pen seen with older computers. It detects the change in brightness of the CRT raster scan itself, and if you pull the trigger it will send a signal at the moment the CRT's beam passes directly across the location onscreen that the scope is pointed at. This signal causes the SNES to latch it's internal horizontal and vertical pixel counters, giving you an actual X and Y coordinate at which the scope was pointed. In other words the Super Scope has a means of providing X and Y screen coordinates whose signal you could spoof. All you need is something capable of providing a set of coordinates, a way to calibrate those coordinates to the actual physical dimensions of thr screen, and a way to synchronise to the SNES's internal counters, and time the right moment to send the latch signal. The NES zapper doesn't know what it's pointed at in the slightest. All it knows is... Is this bright, or dark? Everything is based on timing and the fact that the zapper has a very narrow feild of view to detect whether something is bright or dark. To fake that you'd have to determine during which frame the trigger was pulled, where on the screen it was pointed when the trigger was pulled and then determine if this should've registered a hit or not. This basically requires knowing what's going on onscreen. To fake a super scope you don't need to care what's going on onscreen, you just need to have a way to know when a new frame starts (from memory the scope gets a signal for this anyway), a positioning system, and timers that are fast enough to convert X and Y values to a correctly timed latch signal. In other words NES zapper seems to require image processing and some relatively complex logic. Super Scope only requires being able to determine coordinates somehow (the Wii remote's method would work just fine) and some good timing. They are quite different hardware, despite what you might initially be led to think. The zapper is far more primitive, but in this case it's primitive nature works against you; For the zapper it matters what's visible onscreen at any given time if you want to fake it. The Super Scope can be faked without even needing to care what exactly is visible onscreen...
double-checking some documentation shows that the Super Scope isn't even synchronised to the console. It just sends it's data whenever. This in principle means you could fake it using timers alone. As long as your counters count 60 (or 50 hz) correctly at the rate for horizontal scan and vertical scan, at worst you'd get a fixed timing offset when converting coordinates. There may be more convenient methods, but if all else fails you'd just need some way to calibrate the timing offset to align to the frame timing. Obviously if you read the video signal you can do this automatically, but it isn't strictly nessesary to get something that would work. (the effects of incorrect timing synchronisation with the console would be that the gun's aim would be off. Depending on how super scope games are written, you could create any manner of calibration tools. For instance, with cursor mode active you can have some rotary dials on the gun and ask players to line up the onscreen cursor's position with the gun's sights by adjusting the dials until it lines up. - in fact, if you used any method of tracking not directly tied to the screen output - such as say the IR beacon method of a Wii remote, you'd need such a calibration system anyway to avoid aiming related problems...) Most of these options don't work for the zapper because of how it works. You do in fact need to know what was visible onscreen when you pulled the trigger to know if the zapper should register a hit or not. (you'd have to calculate what part of the screen the zapper was pointed at, do image processing on the screen data to determine if the screen was bright or dark at the time, then determine from that whether a signal should've been sent to the console or not. And of course pray you can do all this processing fast enough that the console registers the 'hit' signal at the right moment.)
I took a non working 5200 roller controller and a 5200 controller cut the joystick part off with a dremel and mounted it where the track ball was. The wiring was easy to figure out and the keyboard and pause start and reset were superior on the roller controller. It worked great and I only needed one because it is set up for 2 players from the factory.
FYI - The consoles Atari was competing against at the time also had storage on the unit itself for their controllers so I don't see why you're mocking the 5200 when the ColecoVision and IntelliVision did the same thing. I've never seen a 5200 with the controllers in the storage area so I don't know if it looks as nice as the others.
Looks super-cool. Now, please produce 250-450 (++) of these and put them out for sale (with revenue of course). Its probably like every retro-gamer-5200-owner out there who’d want one. Looks very good!! Please ‘mass’-produce! ;-)
I would've liked a bit more exposition regarding the voltage ranges used by the arduino and atari. Why does the potentiometer need to be remapped? Couldn't the supply voltage for the potentiometer be modified rather than using a digipot to make a new resistor divider network?
Is it possible to add a d-pad to this, where the d-pad just sends maximum analog value in each of the directions? That would make the arcade style games much more playable. Maybe put it just below the analog stick.
I love the tear down and on the spot analysis of the board. Coming from the web dev world hardwaee development all looks like voodoo but also something you could do over a weekend I guess a bodge is a flaw in the design that was discovered while in production so someone has to hand solder a workaround for every one.
The 5200 was also my first console. When I was a kid I actually loved the 5200 controller. We somehow managed to keep the key inserts and they were really fun to use.
Back in 95 after I purchased Ultra Vortek for the Jaguar, I built a six button controller using a Sega six button casing. It worked perfectly but alas it is long gone. I wonder if Ben could make one?
I still do not understand why they used the values of resistors they did on the joystick ports for the contact inputs. With the values as stated in the design of the controller, of 500 ohm buttons, the values of the resistors are just too high for reliable operation. If the 470 ohm resistors are replaced with 220 ohm resistors, the standard controllers are then within the normal range of values that would be normal for the interface circuitry, and the controllers actually then work quite well.
This brings back some memories. I got an entire Atari 5200 with controllers and a bunch of games for like $5 in the early 90s and never could get the stupid thing to work. I don't remember whether it was the 4 port or 2 port version, though. Sounds like I wasn't missing much with those nasty controllers, though. During the same era, I didn't really care about the 5200 so much because I was able to piece Atari 2600 kits together for about $3 (sold for $30) and get games 10 for $1 (sold for $1-3 each). I sold systems to other kids at school and made enough to buy my Super NES during the "Free Super Mario All Stars game" mail-in promo. I would ultimately sell my Super NES to buy a second-hand 386 laptop in 1997. Worth it.
An improved Intellivision controller would be greatly appreciated along with a somewhat easy way to replace the hardwired ones on the Intellivision I and INTV System III iterations.
This is great, but... what about the spinning function of the 5200 joystick? I'm trying to remember correctly, but weren't you able to roll the stick clockwise &/or counterclockwise too?
That was the 2800/Sears Video Arcade II. Those controllers had similar issues with failures, so this should be the next controller Ben replaces. But with an old-fashioned stick that rotates, not a pad. The controllers work as joystick and paddle in the Atari 2600/7800/8-bit computers/C64, as well. Only problem was that you only had one paddle per port instead of two. The 2800/Sears Video Arcade II had 4 ports.
Hey how about making a controller with both a self centering and a none centering stick with a switch to change between the two for some games so the controller will work both like an old controller and a proper controller
Really, I thought that the 5200 was your most disappointing console. And you never really mentioned the alternatives to the original controller nor the upgrade kits available. Sorry but cant take your comment at face value.
The auto switch box with just one cable going to the console was a nice design as one didn't have to manually switch a TV/game switch to play their console.
A beautiful masterpiece!! The 5200 was my very first console too. The 4 side buttons on the original controllers died right quick. So, I ended up getting a Wico Command Control joystick for it. I still have my 5200, but it stopped working a long time ago!
@@R3TR0R4V3 I did buy some parts, to try and fix it/troubleshoot the problem, but they didn't help. I'm not an electrician; so, I'm not going to take it apart and stuff. =)
I would like to see an episode seeing if it is possible to put a digital tuner inside a Sony watchman and still be portable and still have the tuning knob work
Hey, I can't find a video on a laptop from scratch. ive seen upgrading and raspberry pi's but what about buying actually small hardware and making a custom case and stuff running linux? i think its a cool idea.
I remember taking the joystick apart and trying to play by manually turning the potentiometers in it. Also using a metal object to do button presses because the button pads stopped completing the circuit.
Yes, This is something a lot of retro gamers would love. I bought a 5200 from ebay back in 2000 just so I could play all the games I had as a kid, the 5200 controller was unique in that you could play it from either hand as the fire buttons were on both sides. I remember watching Ben make a few of the handheld 2600 a while back.
Also the only two things I would request he do make the controller with dual thumb sticks. I loved space dungeon and robotron which required a special adapter to lock 2 sticks. And since he has done miracles in the past with portable units Im sure he could (seeing the wasted space on the motherboard) build a "laptop" version or one that could fit in a case with games... Thanks Ben and E14 for the awesome work
I challenge you to find the Atari 2600 adapter for the 5200 and make it work on the Atari 800 and or the 800XL, I figure by using pin by pin adapter cables. The Atari 8-bit systems (XL / XE anyway) used a 65C02. A custom tri-state version. The 400 and 800 frequently used standard 6502 processor. The 5200 used a stripped down version of the Atari 8-bit OS. This needs 2 modes - full X-Y movement, and simulated 8 position distinct for games needing it. You should definitely mass produce and sell it.
Atari used the 6502C. Apple used the 65C02 in the //c.
6 лет назад
Anyone knows the brand of the long orange screwdriver used in the disassembly?? I had one just like it and lost it a couple of years ago, I have been trying to get one with no luck so far.
I need a few of these controllers so I can finally play my 5200 games. When I was young I really didn't like the 3 button Sega Genesis controller, but I seem to like it now.
this popped up, one controler was broken in the 80s, my daughter broke the second one around 2000, can not wait to fix mine, activision dreadnaught was my favorite
Hey Ben got an idea, how about making PS One accepting dualshock 3 and dualshock 4 controllers via Bluetooth? It shoud be quite simple using arduino and bluetooth shield or ESP32. I think there is even some library for controlling PSone using it and you could make nice wireless connector package to put that module there and then use those modern controllers wirelessly with old PSone, how about do that? :-)
I would love if these or something similar were mass produced. There isn't a good optional secondary controller out there for the Atari 5200, just a few one off mods here and there. Also you mentioned easily pulling composite off that video area. There isn't a good composite mod out there anymore that i've found. There used to be a board that could be used for that but it's dropped off the internet mostly.
As a 5200 fan, I gotta comment. The Atari 8-bit computers started out intending to replace the VCS [2600] in 1979. That's what Nolan Bushnell wanted; Warner didn't. Bushnell was fired/quit. Warner's installed President of Atari, the late Ray Kassar, saw the huge margins Apple was making off the Apple II and demanded Atari enter the home computer market. So the VCS replacement project became a computer project. So the 5200 in 1982 returned that whole revolutionary chipset back to its original intent: a game console. Even going back to 1979, Atari internally was debating to release what became the 400 as a keyboard-less console but ultimately released it as a kid-friendly computer with that curse-ed membrane keyboard that made it spill-resistant. The 5200 was originally released with 4 joystick ports. Most of the design choices were made due to the results of intense - and expensive - marketing research. Consumers thought bigger was better which was why the 5200 is huge. Atari also surveyed mothers across the nation and it was decided to make the power and RF cables into a single cable so mothers would stop tripping over multiple wires as they walked across the living rooms since the consoles usually were placed on the floor while gaming. The modulator on the original 5200 was also auto-switching 3+ years before the NES popularized that feature in the US. But since the modulator could spark, it scared people. Not that any 5200s ever caught fire and burnt down houses, unlike Microsoft's original Xbox. Ahem. The controller cabinet on the back was also meant to satisfy mothers. It would be wise to remember the Intellivision and the Colecovision both stored their controllers on the top of the consoles. One short-sighted manager at Atari - who was installed by Warner - is responsible for the 5200 not being backwards-compatible with 2600 [VCS] from the start as well as not insisting upon the standard joysticks self-centering. Atari's own engineers wanted both features. Atari later cost-reduced the 5200 during the intense battle with the Colecovision for next-gen dominance while the industry crashed. So the model you are featuring is that version, the so-called "2-port" version, because it lost the 2 extra joystick ports. It also ditched the fancy auto-switching all-in-one modulator for the traditional separate slider. This version was also natively compatible with the 2600 adapter whereas the 4-port had to be modded at the local Atari Service Center. Atari also designed a 5100 which was much smaller and ditched the controller cabinet but it also sacrificed the Expansion Port. It wasn't released. Like it, Atari also designed the CX52L self-centering joysticks but they also weren't released. That's because Warner forced Atari to discontinue the 5200 in favor of GCC's 7800 which had arguably more powerful graphics - not to mention a cartridge slot that had lines for onboard cartridge RAM, CPU replacements, sound chips, etc - but was also cheaper to manufacture. This happened just as the 5200 was projected to overtake the Colecovision in sales. It really cheesed off Atari's engineers. It prevented Dan Kramer - who designed the awesome Atari Consumer Trak-Ball Controllers - from finishing up work on a 5200 Driving Controller [based upon Atari's arcade Pole Position Steering Wheel, Pedals, and Shifter] and also starting on a 5200 Yoke Controller [based upon Atari's arcade Star Wars Yoke]. The 7800 was supposed to be released nationally - and later internationally - for Christmas 1984 but then Warner decided to sell Atari Inc's Consumer Division to Jack Tramiel's Tramel Technology Limited [TTL], which became Atari Corp, and threw everything out of whack. Tramiel still wanted to release the 7800 for Christmas 1984 for $59.99 but GCC refused because they didn't want their royalties per unit massively reduced, since it was supposed to sell for $149.99, and plus they wanted Warner to generously pay them for the design instead of Tramiel while Tramiel demanded Warner also compensate GCC. Tramiel ended up having to pay GCC but the whole thing dragged out which is why the 7800 didn't get released nationally until January 1986. Meanwhile, the cash-strapped Atari Corp modded leftover 4-port 5200s for traditional RF switchbox and 2600 Adapter compatibility and sold the inventory in bundles via mail-order out of the Atari Explorer magazine... Good times! Oh, and the 5200 rules with its Trak-Ball!
Does Ben ever release the files/specs for his projects? I guarantee there's a part of the community that would produce these. There's only one third-party 5200 controller I know of, and it's ridiculously expensive.
Can you build a raspberry pi 3 compute module powered Gameboy for emulating snes, atari and n64? Also nice video, i still have my working atari 400! lol
Ben, you should send one to AVGN to replay some old 5200 games. Hell, he should send you his Jaguar & Jaguar CD to see if you can get the thing to actually work where others have failed. I'm sure plenty of people would love to see a tear down of that system and peripheral.
So, yeah; remember my challenge from a couple years back now that turned into your Multi-System Retro Controller episode? This is a LOT closer to what I'd had in mind :) If you had one of these usable on the 2600/Intellivision/Colecovision, you'd have a controller that would sell like gangbusters.
This was a very enjoyable video. Thanks. I had (have!) all of the old consoles, and have a singular hatred for the “stock”. Colecovision controllers. It was hard to play games with precision (Ladybug,, Venture, Time Pilot), and uncomfortable for prolonged play. By contrast,I loved the Super Action Colecovision controllers. I did find their durability “lacking”, though. I now use an indestructible EDLADDIN controller for that system. The games play great now!!! I actually like the shape of the Atari 5200 controller. It is comfortable to hold, and I like the placement of the “fire” buttons. I also like the keypad for “Star Raiders” and Defender., and the fact that other games are enhanced by having two fire buttons. The non-centering stick is an issue, of course. However, the WICO 5200 stick is the best handheld controller I have ever used. Very precise. The 5200 power/RF setup is unconventional in the 4-port units, but it does simplify hookup quite a bit. Especially if you have a big retrogaming set-up with wires all over the place. The video quality over RF is acceptable; Atari always did a good job with that. Nothing beats the Composite/S-Video output of an Atari 800, though.
You should update the design so it can use the numkey covers for each game. It would end up looking like proto Switch or WiiU controller with the inserts.
i was thinking is it because 0x80 is 128 in dec, and the i2c bus has 0-127 reserved for the first potentiometer/devices addresses? ie each i2c bus has a max capability of 128 devices on it?
Wow.. I can't believe anybody else remembers this thing. I waited for this thing to come out for months... mostly because it had the accurate pacman maze... completely disappointed with the controller... except for the pause button... that was a Godsend. I still have this thing in its box in my attic I think... I'll have to check it out. As far as bad controllers... have to also go with 2600 joysticks. Great simplistic design but not durable enough. I had a first-gen console (with the difficulty controllers on the front - 3 lever-switches on each side of the cartridge slot). The first gen joysticks had springs in them to press down the lands on ckt board. There was a plastic overlay that held the springs in place on the board. Tje other end of the springs were connected with a bracket to a piece of G11 or something. I was cracking those like crazy before they changed to the white plastic insert with the extremely weak support rails... good memories of long play sessions though... BTW... how could you leave out the feature in the top-left corner of the console? THE EXPANSION PORT! so mysterious! so unused! ...to my knowledge don't think they ever made anything for it. Anyway thanks for the memory lane stroll!
The problem wasn't that the joystick didn't center, but rather that it relied on the rigidity of the rubber casing around it to do so. The issue of course is that kids and time wore the rubber down, making it not center the joystick anymore. If a remember correct, the real design flaw was with the board. It was anchored in a point the allowed the board to flex causing the thing to break itself apart. It's really a shame that they botched the controllers that way as the system itself was not bad for it's era. If I remember correctly though, Atari made first, but when the company changed hands the board was used for the home computers. They literally sat on a more advanced console for three years and only released it once sales of the 2600 started to slip.
It was an analog controller, it did not spin. Apparently the controller in this video is not analog. I don't know what the point of this project and video was after all.
mybad, it was the 2800/Sears Video Arcade II and the point of this video is to create an improved 5200 controller solution, I guess? I had a 5200 a while back but didn't really care to keep it in my collection... the controllers hadn't failed yet when I owned it, they worked well enough.
Yes it was the 2800 controller which had a rotating joystick shaft that doubled as a paddle controller. This project here is facepalm inducing. There have already been many options for using newly built keypads and digital controllers for 5200. What is widely known to be an issue is recreating the analog control for 5200 games, Ben Heck talks about and shows an analog stick for his project here, but in execution it is just another digital controller apparently.
I feel like the controller would be nicer with better ergonomics and making the 2 red buttons shoulder buttons. Also, the number buttons should be where the red buttons should be, and the number buttons should have a groove for the controller overlays. Nice job though
Nice controller! However, I do prefer grabbing a stick like on a 2600 controller. With some games like Enduro, I play better with a stick. I never really cared for the ColecoVision, IntelliVision or Atari 7800 controllers. (For 7800, I never got a chance to use a CX78 controller. I've only used the standard US Pro-line CX24 controller.) The way you have to hold the controllers with the buttons on the sides always felt awkward. I had less of a problem with the IntelliVision, but it's still not a favorite. I don't mind the modern analog sticks. I just prefer the arcade joysticks or early Atari and PC joysticks (like the old Gravis black and red controller).
The cord looks too stiff. Need a softer one. Otherwise looks nice. Not sure if ADC->DAC is worth it though, especially if it does not offer any way to communicate to it digitally. Well, I mean, it's ok for a hack-those-things-together DIY project.
Felix! We need a dual sticks controller for Robotron 2084 and Space Dungeons! Dual sticks, number pad, start/pause/reset and two controller cables. No need for buttons. That would be great...
Seriously !! You should mass produce these ! At least make 1000 available. They would sell out on Atari Age within 15 minutes !
Does it actually work though? They talk about the analog controller but then just seem to forget about it.
TheClassicGamefan Did you saw the video? They test it with Pacman & Mario Brothers
Sorry to be blunt, but I can't believe how dense and clueless people commenting here are.
Mario Bros and Pac Man are digitally directed games, Mario uses left and right directions only, Pac Man only uses up, down, left, and right - not even any diagonals. What person uses those games to test an analog controller?!
The specialty of the 5200 controller is that it is analog, these guys pretend they are making a new analog controller but then never show it working as an analog controller. How can you not notice that when watching the video?
exactly. i wanna see them play missle command and centipede with it. i use the interface thing that lets you use genesis controllers with a 5200 and i use the track ball or og 5200 controller for some analog games but i really wanna see someone crack that riddle
indeed it'd make me want to buy a 5200 since i'd actually be able to play it :D
This is the most emotion I've ever seen Felix show!
That's what I was thinking too :)
Yea Felix laughed OUT LOUD and not just in his own head... next thing you know the Koreas will be shaking hands!
I'm thinking of a spin-off series where Felix and Jordan Schlansky solve crimes with a dog and a stoner.
He's really come out of his shell, which is impressive for a Linux guy :D
Taken straight back to his childhood and the kid inside of him awoke.
I still have my original 5200. Yes the controllers were the weak link in the system. My brother and I became experts at repairing them back in the day. Still a very cool and very expensive system back then. Still one of my favorites!!!!
There’s an entire atariage community who would love that controller. Myself included. Please provide this to be available for purchase.
It needs to be seen whether this controller actually provides analog control.
The retro market is in need of this controller. My god this needs to be mass produced
crimson7085 ah jeez. Who’s really getting teary eyed over the 7800 much less the 5200?
There's a lot of us 5200 and 7800 gamers still rocking the systems. Go over to AtariAge dot com if you don't believe me.
I agree! I have two controllers and I’ve taken them apart so many times to fix them
This channel has gotten so much better lately. It's really too bad that the show is ending.
The only problem I can see is that games used thin plastic overlays to tell you what the keypad buttons did, so you'd have to either design the controller to fit the original overlays or provide new ones that are compatible with the redesigned one. Or remember what all 12 buttons did.
Ben, please, PLEASE...make this controller available for sale. I could really use one. I miss using my Atari 5200. When I think about using it, I stop and think, and remember. The controllers are atrocious. 😔 pleaae....help!
I'll second that! I have both models of the 5200 - the 4 controller port version and the 2 port version. I even have a 2600 to 5200 cartridge adaptor. But, I have NO CONTROLLERS THAT WORK! I can't play them anymore :(
I'm very good at fixing them look for Mark on atariage page on Facebook
I would definitely buy this!
There's something to that controller. If it was compatible with PC games, it would be tempting to buy one.
Have somebody put this into production or brand new controllers for all retro consoles hey there's an idea, show me the money Ben!!!!
The first 5200 with the "funky" switch box was a neat feature. One, it auto-switched to the game signal (from the tv signal), eliminating the need to get up and reach behind the tv. Also, having a single cable go from the box to the tv meant they could provide an extra long cable (with a convenient wire-wrap on the bottom) so you could sit comfortably on your couch instead of having to crouch in front of the tv or have multiple wires strung across your living room. Atari didn't pitch this as the replacement to the 2600, but the "Cadillac" model. As such, it had to look nice (and it looks stunning when cleaned up) and also not leave any clutter- hence the controller storage. I have most every classic console, and the 5200 is the only one that looks nice in your entertainment center (being all sleek, shiny, black-and-silver) and doesn't look "old" alongside a modern receiver, blu-ray player, PS4, etc.
The 5200 was the first console I bought myself (got the 2600 as a Christmas gift). Worked a lot of hot days detassling to buy it with and managed to get the last one the local Target store had. :D
We had an Interton VC 4000 back in the late 70's and we loved it back then.
That also had an analog stick! In fact the controller looks remarkably similar in concept to the 5200's.
For sure there is a market for these controllers. As others have said, you didn't allow for the use of the overlays for those games that did come with them. Also you really need to test your analog programming with a few games that are very tricky to get working in all directions even with stock and good working 5200 controllers. Those games are Popeye, Kangaroo, Miner 2049er, the sequel known as Bounty Bob Strikes back and Gyruss.
Also I would be interested to know if you did a composite video mod on it to get the gameplay footage at the end on your Dell monitor there or how you got around the RF on that?
But these are the kinds of videos I originally subscribed to see on the TBHS and it is very bittersweet to see this stuff again on the sunset of Ben leaving...
All of the 5200 games that are Trak-Ball compatible will work well with analog joysticks. Speaking of Gyruss, there's a 5200 specific version that has never been officially released. For whatever reason, the commercial version Parker Bros. released was just a port of the Atari 8-bit computer version.
5200 Gyruss was my jam. Of course, I had a Wico stick.
Loving the going out with a bang aspect to these videos, back to the good old Ben Heck
Looks great, although didn't some 5200 games have overlays? Not sure they would work so well with this version.
The original controller accommodated both left-handed and right-handed players. Funny how in this new, enlightened age of making things accessible we expect left-handed players to just "suck-it-up" and adapt to a single controller layout for everyone. Also, the main beef against the 5200 stick was that it was analog while most games of the era (like Pac-Man) worked better with a digital joystick. I'm surprised you didn't also include a D-pad as an alternate control scheme. Multiple third parties sold adapters that would turn a standard digital stick into a 5200 compatible controller.
Honestly, this acting was super-par... Way too good... I'm a little disappointed in you guys... Don't let yourselves slip like this...❤️
I love these type of videos. You guys solve a well known problem, and show the solution process from beginning to end. The process is educational and informative. Quite exciting for a nerd like me! I also think this controller should be taken to market. The 5200 was a decent console that was plagued by awful controllers. Would love to see more similar videos in the future!
The thumbnail made me think this was going to only be about the controllers, and I thought about not watching. Thanks for doing a teardown of the console and talking about it, that made the whole thing more interesting overall.
Ben and Felix, there are loads of 5200 owners who would buy that. A lot are over at AtariAge and also in various Facebook groups. However, the true holy grail of a project, and I hope you both would consider doing this, would be to create a retrofix PCB kit for the CX52 joystick that would replace the flex circuit in them. You could take that self-centering analog joystick mechanism you used and replace the existing analog stick with it. And you could use dome switches - which Dan Kramer's CX53 Trak-Ball Controller uses - attached to the PCB so that the mushy fire buttons and keypad buttons would work properly. Essentially turning a stock CX52 into the CX52L that wasn't released. You guys would be 5200 gods! Take my money!
If you guys really want to play 5200 games, get the AtariMax SD Cartridge Adapter. It rocks. If you want to mod the 5200 further, there's 2 different RGB mods available, with the VBXE from Europe being the most expensive option but with the most firepower; the SOPHIA - or is it SOFIA? - is a plug-in chip option. And you could use the Dual POKEY mods used on Atari 8-bit computers and use them in the 5200 for "stereo" [dual mono] sound.
As for Pac-Man, there's a much better version done in recent years by Tep392 called "Pac-Man Arcade". If you search a little bit, you can find ways of buying it on cart, or you could load the ROM in the AtariMax SD Adapter.
Finally, a couple of things about the 5200 chips. Most Atari 8-bits, the 5200, and the 7800 all use Atari's custom 6502C "Sally" CPU. From what I can see, it appears that that particular one in the 5200 in your video was made by Rockwell. Atari bought very little from MOS Technology after Commodore acquired them. MOS actually asked Al Alcorn at Atari Inc. to buy the company to keep themselves out of Commodore's hands but Warner nixed that idea. MOS granted Atari a license to the 6502 upon condition of ordering 50k CPUs - actually, 6507s - from MOS. Atari ended up mainly purchasing their 6502s from Synertek and Rockwell. The 5200 doesn't have a PIA because it doesn't have an SIO Port. It also doesn't have the built-in Light Pen/Gun support that the Atari 8-bit computers have [including the much later XE Game System], or a larger ROM to support those extra goodies. The POKEY reads the joystick ports and also does the audio. In the 2600 VCS, the RIOT handles the joysticks while the TIA handles graphics and sound.
Awesome video! Now, about that potential CX52 retrofit kit... :)
To answer your question:YES! I’d buy one of these, two even!
Only one question, will the controller overlays fit into it?
Yes we would buy it. Contact us for your first order.
I'd buy it :) :) :)
Some of the many, many dedicated pong machines from the first generation of consoles had analog sticks (usually non-centering) instead of paddle dials.
My first ever videogame console was one of those--it was a Unisonic Olympian 2600 (yes), and it used a later-generation General Instruments pong chip that allowed moving the paddles in two dimensions; also had a couple of target-shooting modes that didn't use a light gun but involved moving a cursor on the screen. I didn't play it much because it broke after about a week. But I remember that the box proudly touted the joysticks as OMNI-DIRECTIONAL CONTROLS.
Does the new keypad hold the plastic overlays? I didn't see any slots for the edges.
Hey! Can you build a version of the NES Zapper that works on modern televisions? Or take an AimTrak USB light gun and hack it to work on the NES and then use the AimTrak gun's sensor bar with the TV? I might want to use it for my new AVS console! That one is HDMI-only.
That would be quite the challenge given how the NES zapper is designed to work.
You'd probably have an easier time with the SNES Super Scope, because it works slightly differently...
But because of how those light guns worked in general I'm not sure you could really create a version that would work in a way the console could actually understand.
Would be an interesting project if you could though...
Probably you'd need to use IR beacons and a camera (like the Wii remote and most modern light guns) to determine where the gun is pointing, and then use the position data, along with picture data from the console's video output, to virtually sample the light level of that area of the screen, and feed it back to the console. It could probably be relatively easy on traditional hardware that has a true composite output.
For something like RetroUSB AVS (a modern, FPGA-based reimplementation of the NES hardware) this would be complicated somewhat by the fact that that console doesn't have a composite output - the light gun would need to sample picture data from HDMI instead. The HDMI signal from those PLCC machines is probably low enough in latency that it'd still work.
As for the SNES Super Scope - I'm not sure how that's easier. As with the NES Zapper you need to use position data to determine when the console thinks it's drawing the part of the frame where the light gun is pointed. An implementation for HDMI-only systems like Analogue Super NT might be simpler than an HDMI Zapper, since the light gun would only need to know the timing of the frames (and adjust that to produce an approximation of the console's true frame timing) as opposed to sampling picture data from specific pixels in the frame... But an analog-signal-path implementation would be almost the same either way.
Robert Weatherholt if this could be possible, I'd buy one immediately.
Tetsujin The two work quite differently though.
A game using the NES zapper flashes a bright square for a frame independently for each target, and when the zapper detects such a bright region the console checks on which frame it happened.
Since only one target's square lit up on any given frame, the console can determine which target the zapper saw because of which frame it responded in.
The zapper has absolutely no sense of what it's pointing at though.
Point it at a bright light and pull the trigger while hit detection frames are visible and it'll register a hit even though you weren't even pointing it at the screen.
The Super Scope meanwhile is explicitly identical in function to a light pen seen with older computers.
It detects the change in brightness of the CRT raster scan itself, and if you pull the trigger it will send a signal at the moment the CRT's beam passes directly across the location onscreen that the scope is pointed at.
This signal causes the SNES to latch it's internal horizontal and vertical pixel counters, giving you an actual X and Y coordinate at which the scope was pointed.
In other words the Super Scope has a means of providing X and Y screen coordinates whose signal you could spoof. All you need is something capable of providing a set of coordinates, a way to calibrate those coordinates to the actual physical dimensions of thr screen, and a way to synchronise to the SNES's internal counters, and time the right moment to send the latch signal.
The NES zapper doesn't know what it's pointed at in the slightest. All it knows is... Is this bright, or dark?
Everything is based on timing and the fact that the zapper has a very narrow feild of view to detect whether something is bright or dark.
To fake that you'd have to determine during which frame the trigger was pulled, where on the screen it was pointed when the trigger was pulled and then determine if this should've registered a hit or not. This basically requires knowing what's going on onscreen.
To fake a super scope you don't need to care what's going on onscreen, you just need to have a way to know when a new frame starts (from memory the scope gets a signal for this anyway), a positioning system, and timers that are fast enough to convert X and Y values to a correctly timed latch signal.
In other words NES zapper seems to require image processing and some relatively complex logic.
Super Scope only requires being able to determine coordinates somehow (the Wii remote's method would work just fine) and some good timing.
They are quite different hardware, despite what you might initially be led to think.
The zapper is far more primitive, but in this case it's primitive nature works against you; For the zapper it matters what's visible onscreen at any given time if you want to fake it.
The Super Scope can be faked without even needing to care what exactly is visible onscreen...
double-checking some documentation shows that the Super Scope isn't even synchronised to the console. It just sends it's data whenever.
This in principle means you could fake it using timers alone.
As long as your counters count 60 (or 50 hz) correctly at the rate for horizontal scan and vertical scan, at worst you'd get a fixed timing offset when converting coordinates.
There may be more convenient methods, but if all else fails you'd just need some way to calibrate the timing offset to align to the frame timing.
Obviously if you read the video signal you can do this automatically, but it isn't strictly nessesary to get something that would work.
(the effects of incorrect timing synchronisation with the console would be that the gun's aim would be off. Depending on how super scope games are written, you could create any manner of calibration tools. For instance, with cursor mode active you can have some rotary dials on the gun and ask players to line up the onscreen cursor's position with the gun's sights by adjusting the dials until it lines up. - in fact, if you used any method of tracking not directly tied to the screen output - such as say the IR beacon method of a Wii remote, you'd need such a calibration system anyway to avoid aiming related problems...)
Most of these options don't work for the zapper because of how it works. You do in fact need to know what was visible onscreen when you pulled the trigger to know if the zapper should register a hit or not. (you'd have to calculate what part of the screen the zapper was pointed at, do image processing on the screen data to determine if the screen was bright or dark at the time, then determine from that whether a signal should've been sent to the console or not. And of course pray you can do all this processing fast enough that the console registers the 'hit' signal at the right moment.)
I took a non working 5200 roller controller and a 5200 controller cut the joystick part off with a dremel and mounted it where the track ball was. The wiring was easy to figure out and the keyboard and pause start and reset were superior on the roller controller. It worked great and I only needed one because it is set up for 2 players from the factory.
FYI - The consoles Atari was competing against at the time also had storage on the unit itself for their controllers so I don't see why you're mocking the 5200 when the ColecoVision and IntelliVision did the same thing. I've never seen a 5200 with the controllers in the storage area so I don't know if it looks as nice as the others.
Looks super-cool.
Now, please produce 250-450 (++) of these and put them out for sale (with revenue of course).
Its probably like every retro-gamer-5200-owner out there who’d want one.
Looks very good!!
Please ‘mass’-produce!
;-)
I would've liked a bit more exposition regarding the voltage ranges used by the arduino and atari. Why does the potentiometer need to be remapped? Couldn't the supply voltage for the potentiometer be modified rather than using a digipot to make a new resistor divider network?
Is it possible to add a d-pad to this, where the d-pad just sends maximum analog value in each of the directions? That would make the arcade style games much more playable. Maybe put it just below the analog stick.
Exactly what I was thinking!
I love the tear down and on the spot analysis of the board.
Coming from the web dev world hardwaee development all looks like voodoo but also something you could do over a weekend
I guess a bodge is a flaw in the design that was discovered while in production so someone has to hand solder a workaround for every one.
The 5200 was also my first console. When I was a kid I actually loved the 5200 controller. We somehow managed to keep the key inserts and they were really fun to use.
really cool controller but you should make a follow up video creating custom overlays for this controller.
I used to scrape down aluminium foil and glue it to the contact pads of the 5200 controller. Worked perfect for me.
Can you make the console itself more compact? Or even a portable, if you haven't?
If you search the net, you'll find one example of the 5200 motherboard being chopped up and installed inside a 2600jr case.
Haha that's pretty cute
Am I misunderstanding something with the code? He never calls sendPot() from the loop function.
Back in 95 after I purchased Ultra Vortek for the Jaguar, I built a six button controller using a Sega six button casing. It worked perfectly but alas it is long gone. I wonder if Ben could make one?
I still do not understand why they used the values of resistors they did on the joystick ports for the contact inputs. With the values as stated in the design of the controller, of 500 ohm buttons, the values of the resistors are just too high for reliable operation. If the 470 ohm resistors are replaced with 220 ohm resistors, the standard controllers are then within the normal range of values that would be normal for the interface circuitry, and the controllers actually then work quite well.
I'd love to see this board open sourced and the shell available to be 3d printed.
This brings back some memories. I got an entire Atari 5200 with controllers and a bunch of games for like $5 in the early 90s and never could get the stupid thing to work. I don't remember whether it was the 4 port or 2 port version, though. Sounds like I wasn't missing much with those nasty controllers, though. During the same era, I didn't really care about the 5200 so much because I was able to piece Atari 2600 kits together for about $3 (sold for $30) and get games 10 for $1 (sold for $1-3 each). I sold systems to other kids at school and made enough to buy my Super NES during the "Free Super Mario All Stars game" mail-in promo. I would ultimately sell my Super NES to buy a second-hand 386 laptop in 1997. Worth it.
I'd love to buy this. Also interested in making a device similiar to the Electra Concepts Masterplay Interface
I'll take 2 of them, where can I buy this?
An improved Intellivision controller would be greatly appreciated along with a somewhat easy way to replace the hardwired ones on the Intellivision I and INTV System III iterations.
Amen! I have ideas for this if anyone wants to do this.
I like these video game centered episodes, getting back to his roots before his swan song.
This is great, but... what about the spinning function of the 5200 joystick? I'm trying to remember correctly, but weren't you able to roll the stick clockwise &/or counterclockwise too?
That was the 2800/Sears Video Arcade II. Those controllers had similar issues with failures, so this should be the next controller Ben replaces. But with an old-fashioned stick that rotates, not a pad. The controllers work as joystick and paddle in the Atari 2600/7800/8-bit computers/C64, as well. Only problem was that you only had one paddle per port instead of two. The 2800/Sears Video Arcade II had 4 ports.
Get one of these to James Rolfe so he can finally review them 5200 games!
Corey Woodworth agreed
I had one it might be at my parents. I now remember the button pad and some games came with overlay cards to show what the buttons do for that game.
Hey how about making a controller with both a self centering and a none centering stick with a switch to change between the two for some games so the controller will work both like an old controller and a proper controller
Please please please take a look at the Colecovision regular and super action controller. Thanks.
Um, I’d buy it in a second!!
Really, I thought that the 5200 was your most disappointing console. And you never really mentioned the alternatives to the original controller nor the upgrade kits available. Sorry but cant take your comment at face value.
@@nostalgicforthe70s18 it's a RUclips comment.. chill
there is a cheap adapter floating on ebay (greece imported) that lets you use 2600 controllers instead of the 5200
The auto switch box with just one cable going to the console was a nice design as one didn't have to manually switch a TV/game switch to play their console.
I’d certainly buy these. That’s the tough part when I watch these videos, I see things I want, but can’t get.
A beautiful masterpiece!! The 5200 was my very first console too. The 4 side buttons on the original controllers died right quick. So, I ended up getting a Wico Command Control joystick for it. I still have my 5200, but it stopped working a long time ago!
Fix it! Do some digging around in here and I'm AtariAge. I'm sure it can be fixed. ;)
@@R3TR0R4V3 I did buy some parts, to try and fix it/troubleshoot the problem, but they didn't help. I'm not an electrician; so, I'm not going to take it apart and stuff. =)
love this. Always wanted to do something similar for Intellivision.
I would like to see an episode seeing if it is possible to put a digital tuner inside a Sony watchman and still be portable and still have the tuning knob work
Avgn would love to have a set of these 5200 redesigned controls. I suggest you contact them
Hey, I can't find a video on a laptop from scratch. ive seen upgrading and raspberry pi's but what about buying actually small hardware and making a custom case and stuff running linux? i think its a cool idea.
Really with they would demo this on an analog game (Centipede), I guess Felix didn’t own any Trak-ball titles. Are plans / schematics available?
I remember taking the joystick apart and trying to play by manually turning the potentiometers in it. Also using a metal object to do button presses because the button pads stopped completing the circuit.
was the RF modulator modulated via a R2R resistor network.
Similar bodge on the early mk1 genesis, the pin is bent out and a small resistor is attached.
Yes, This is something a lot of retro gamers would love. I bought a 5200 from ebay back in 2000 just so I could play all the games I had as a kid, the 5200 controller was unique in that you could play it from either hand as the fire buttons were on both sides. I remember watching Ben make a few of the handheld 2600 a while back.
Also the only two things I would request he do make the controller with dual thumb sticks. I loved space dungeon and robotron which required a special adapter to lock 2 sticks. And since he has done miracles in the past with portable units Im sure he could (seeing the wasted space on the motherboard) build a "laptop" version or one that could fit in a case with games... Thanks Ben and E14 for the awesome work
And can you make a controller for the Atari 5200 that looks a lot like the 5209 controller but works the right way including the button overlay
I challenge you to find the Atari 2600 adapter for the 5200 and make it work on the Atari 800 and or the 800XL, I figure by using pin by pin adapter cables.
The Atari 8-bit systems (XL / XE anyway) used a 65C02. A custom tri-state version. The 400 and 800 frequently used standard 6502 processor. The 5200 used a stripped down version of the Atari 8-bit OS.
This needs 2 modes - full X-Y movement, and simulated 8 position distinct for games needing it.
You should definitely mass produce and sell it.
Atari used the 6502C. Apple used the 65C02 in the //c.
Anyone knows the brand of the long orange screwdriver used in the disassembly?? I had one just like it and lost it a couple of years ago, I have been trying to get one with no luck so far.
Did I miss the part when you explained how the inputs work on the console ? you just say like a keyboard, but not much else.
DJ legion It's like in the Atari 800 computers
I need a few of these controllers so I can finally play my 5200 games. When I was young I really didn't like the 3 button Sega Genesis controller, but I seem to like it now.
this popped up, one controler was broken in the 80s, my daughter broke the second one around 2000, can not wait to fix mine, activision dreadnaught was my favorite
Back on form good to see
Hey Ben got an idea, how about making PS One accepting dualshock 3 and dualshock 4 controllers via Bluetooth? It shoud be quite simple using arduino and bluetooth shield or ESP32. I think there is even some library for controlling PSone using it and you could make nice wireless connector package to put that module there and then use those modern controllers wirelessly with old PSone, how about do that? :-)
I would love if these or something similar were mass produced. There isn't a good optional secondary controller out there for the Atari 5200, just a few one off mods here and there. Also you mentioned easily pulling composite off that video area. There isn't a good composite mod out there anymore that i've found. There used to be a board that could be used for that but it's dropped off the internet mostly.
As a 5200 fan, I gotta comment. The Atari 8-bit computers started out intending to replace the VCS [2600] in 1979. That's what Nolan Bushnell wanted; Warner didn't. Bushnell was fired/quit. Warner's installed President of Atari, the late Ray Kassar, saw the huge margins Apple was making off the Apple II and demanded Atari enter the home computer market. So the VCS replacement project became a computer project. So the 5200 in 1982 returned that whole revolutionary chipset back to its original intent: a game console. Even going back to 1979, Atari internally was debating to release what became the 400 as a keyboard-less console but ultimately released it as a kid-friendly computer with that curse-ed membrane keyboard that made it spill-resistant.
The 5200 was originally released with 4 joystick ports. Most of the design choices were made due to the results of intense - and expensive - marketing research. Consumers thought bigger was better which was why the 5200 is huge. Atari also surveyed mothers across the nation and it was decided to make the power and RF cables into a single cable so mothers would stop tripping over multiple wires as they walked across the living rooms since the consoles usually were placed on the floor while gaming. The modulator on the original 5200 was also auto-switching 3+ years before the NES popularized that feature in the US. But since the modulator could spark, it scared people. Not that any 5200s ever caught fire and burnt down houses, unlike Microsoft's original Xbox. Ahem. The controller cabinet on the back was also meant to satisfy mothers. It would be wise to remember the Intellivision and the Colecovision both stored their controllers on the top of the consoles.
One short-sighted manager at Atari - who was installed by Warner - is responsible for the 5200 not being backwards-compatible with 2600 [VCS] from the start as well as not insisting upon the standard joysticks self-centering. Atari's own engineers wanted both features.
Atari later cost-reduced the 5200 during the intense battle with the Colecovision for next-gen dominance while the industry crashed. So the model you are featuring is that version, the so-called "2-port" version, because it lost the 2 extra joystick ports. It also ditched the fancy auto-switching all-in-one modulator for the traditional separate slider. This version was also natively compatible with the 2600 adapter whereas the 4-port had to be modded at the local Atari Service Center.
Atari also designed a 5100 which was much smaller and ditched the controller cabinet but it also sacrificed the Expansion Port. It wasn't released. Like it, Atari also designed the CX52L self-centering joysticks but they also weren't released. That's because Warner forced Atari to discontinue the 5200 in favor of GCC's 7800 which had arguably more powerful graphics - not to mention a cartridge slot that had lines for onboard cartridge RAM, CPU replacements, sound chips, etc - but was also cheaper to manufacture. This happened just as the 5200 was projected to overtake the Colecovision in sales. It really cheesed off Atari's engineers. It prevented Dan Kramer - who designed the awesome Atari Consumer Trak-Ball Controllers - from finishing up work on a 5200 Driving Controller [based upon Atari's arcade Pole Position Steering Wheel, Pedals, and Shifter] and also starting on a 5200 Yoke Controller [based upon Atari's arcade Star Wars Yoke]. The 7800 was supposed to be released nationally - and later internationally - for Christmas 1984 but then Warner decided to sell Atari Inc's Consumer Division to Jack Tramiel's Tramel Technology Limited [TTL], which became Atari Corp, and threw everything out of whack. Tramiel still wanted to release the 7800 for Christmas 1984 for $59.99 but GCC refused because they didn't want their royalties per unit massively reduced, since it was supposed to sell for $149.99, and plus they wanted Warner to generously pay them for the design instead of Tramiel while Tramiel demanded Warner also compensate GCC. Tramiel ended up having to pay GCC but the whole thing dragged out which is why the 7800 didn't get released nationally until January 1986. Meanwhile, the cash-strapped Atari Corp modded leftover 4-port 5200s for traditional RF switchbox and 2600 Adapter compatibility and sold the inventory in bundles via mail-order out of the Atari Explorer magazine...
Good times! Oh, and the 5200 rules with its Trak-Ball!
Nice job! Definitely a market for those. Everyone that has a 5200 console will want 2 to 4 of them.
This is all kinds of coolness. I've only ever owned the 2600 and the 7800. The 5200 is a pretty rare bird.
Does Ben ever release the files/specs for his projects? I guarantee there's a part of the community that would produce these. There's only one third-party 5200 controller I know of, and it's ridiculously expensive.
Can you build a raspberry pi 3 compute module powered Gameboy for emulating snes, atari and n64? Also nice video, i still have my working atari 400! lol
Ben, you should send one to AVGN to replay some old 5200 games. Hell, he should send you his Jaguar & Jaguar CD to see if you can get the thing to actually work where others have failed. I'm sure plenty of people would love to see a tear down of that system and peripheral.
i wanted a dreamcast, but i only manage to buy a VNU , do something with the VNU Ben
So, yeah; remember my challenge from a couple years back now that turned into your Multi-System Retro Controller episode? This is a LOT closer to what I'd had in mind :)
If you had one of these usable on the 2600/Intellivision/Colecovision, you'd have a controller that would sell like gangbusters.
Now make it wireless and you've really got something.
How much current do the MC and the digipot require?
Felix is an introvert. I can relate to Felix. This is a marketable product.
This was a very enjoyable video. Thanks. I had (have!) all of the old consoles, and have a singular hatred for the “stock”. Colecovision controllers. It was hard to play games with precision (Ladybug,, Venture, Time Pilot), and uncomfortable for prolonged play. By contrast,I loved the Super Action Colecovision controllers. I did find their durability “lacking”, though. I now use an indestructible EDLADDIN controller for that system. The games play great now!!!
I actually like the shape of the Atari 5200 controller. It is comfortable to hold, and I like the placement of the “fire” buttons. I also like the keypad for “Star Raiders” and Defender., and the fact that other games are enhanced by having two fire buttons. The non-centering stick is an issue, of course. However, the WICO 5200 stick is the best handheld controller I have ever used. Very precise. The 5200 power/RF setup is unconventional in the 4-port units, but it does simplify hookup quite a bit. Especially if you have a big retrogaming set-up with wires all over the place. The video quality over RF is acceptable; Atari always did a good job with that. Nothing beats the Composite/S-Video output of an Atari 800, though.
You should update the design so it can use the numkey covers for each game. It would end up looking like proto Switch or WiiU controller with the inserts.
why is the second potentiometer address 0x80?
i was thinking is it because 0x80 is 128 in dec, and the i2c bus has 0-127 reserved for the first potentiometer/devices addresses? ie each i2c bus has a max capability of 128 devices on it?
I liked the explanation of the 5200 innards. Now can you make a new controller for ColecoVision? (Your vision is our vision!)
I need one of these! Make more, please!
I always felt the buttons on the Turbo Grafx 16 were a little stiff.
Ben you really should contact james rolfe and send him this controller!
AlphaMax Agree Make two
Wow.. I can't believe anybody else remembers this thing. I waited for this thing to come out for months... mostly because it had the accurate pacman maze... completely disappointed with the controller... except for the pause button... that was a Godsend. I still have this thing in its box in my attic I think... I'll have to check it out.
As far as bad controllers... have to also go with 2600 joysticks. Great simplistic design but not durable enough. I had a first-gen console (with the difficulty controllers on the front - 3 lever-switches on each side of the cartridge slot). The first gen joysticks had springs in them to press down the lands on ckt board. There was a plastic overlay that held the springs in place on the board. Tje other end of the springs were connected with a bracket to a piece of G11 or something. I was cracking those like crazy before they changed to the white plastic insert with the extremely weak support rails... good memories of long play sessions though...
BTW... how could you leave out the feature in the top-left corner of the console? THE EXPANSION PORT! so mysterious! so unused! ...to my knowledge don't think they ever made anything for it. Anyway thanks for the memory lane stroll!
The problem wasn't that the joystick didn't center, but rather that it relied on the rigidity of the rubber casing around it to do so. The issue of course is that kids and time wore the rubber down, making it not center the joystick anymore. If a remember correct, the real design flaw was with the board. It was anchored in a point the allowed the board to flex causing the thing to break itself apart. It's really a shame that they botched the controllers that way as the system itself was not bad for it's era. If I remember correctly though, Atari made first, but when the company changed hands the board was used for the home computers. They literally sat on a more advanced console for three years and only released it once sales of the 2600 started to slip.
Some Felix Gold here
*w o o o l i t t l e t u r t l e*
didn't the 5200 joystick also have paddle/spinner functionality too?
It was an analog controller, it did not spin. Apparently the controller in this video is not analog. I don't know what the point of this project and video was after all.
mybad, it was the 2800/Sears Video Arcade II
and the point of this video is to create an improved 5200 controller solution, I guess? I had a 5200 a while back but didn't really care to keep it in my collection... the controllers hadn't failed yet when I owned it, they worked well enough.
Yes it was the 2800 controller which had a rotating joystick shaft that doubled as a paddle controller.
This project here is facepalm inducing. There have already been many options for using newly built keypads and digital controllers for 5200. What is widely known to be an issue is recreating the analog control for 5200 games, Ben Heck talks about and shows an analog stick for his project here, but in execution it is just another digital controller apparently.
I feel like the controller would be nicer with better ergonomics and making the 2 red buttons shoulder buttons. Also, the number buttons should be where the red buttons should be, and the number buttons should have a groove for the controller overlays. Nice job though
can you resdesign an n64 controller to be more ergonomic ?
Nice controller! However, I do prefer grabbing a stick like on a 2600 controller. With some games like Enduro, I play better with a stick. I never really cared for the ColecoVision, IntelliVision or Atari 7800 controllers. (For 7800, I never got a chance to use a CX78 controller. I've only used the standard US Pro-line CX24 controller.) The way you have to hold the controllers with the buttons on the sides always felt awkward. I had less of a problem with the IntelliVision, but it's still not a favorite. I don't mind the modern analog sticks. I just prefer the arcade joysticks or early Atari and PC joysticks (like the old Gravis black and red controller).
The cord looks too stiff. Need a softer one. Otherwise looks nice.
Not sure if ADC->DAC is worth it though, especially if it does not offer any way to communicate to it digitally. Well, I mean, it's ok for a hack-those-things-together DIY project.
Where can I Buy One!
Intellivision 2's number pad material is terrible, rendering my Intellivision unplayable. What if it was touch screen?
Hey could you guys make a system that played Atari 2600 5200 and 7800 games
Felix! We need a dual sticks controller for Robotron 2084 and Space Dungeons!
Dual sticks, number pad, start/pause/reset and two controller cables. No need for buttons.
That would be great...