It also depends a lot on the impedance of the pickups, and the resistance of the pots. A lower impedance source is going to be less affected. An extreme example would be an active pickup, which shouldn't be audibly affected by long cables.
There's such a slight difference, it's hard to tell if I'm only hearing it because I expect to hear it or if it's just due to the slight differences in playing each time.
I could definitely hear it in the blind test... but only because I was explicitly listening for it. If you played me the two clips, with no context, I may not have been able to tell the difference as easily. Or, I suspect I might have heard a slight difference, but couldn't tell you what it was.
@@NoOne-ye5jf An EQ sure helps, but doesn't quite fix it in the strictest sense. If you're losing the highs (which is what happens with cable capacitance), then you can't turn up what you don't have. A buffered pedal early in the chain really is the better option so you don't lose those highs in the first place. (But of course that then opens up the issue of buffered pedals colouring the tone, which is a whole other kettle of fish.)
Guitars with active electronics do not have any of these issues because the electronics present a very low impedance output signal - just like pedals. The run from the pedalboard to the amp should not be considered in the "length to the amp" calculation because nearly all modern pedals provide a low impedance output that isn't subject to the loss of a passive cable. So you can eliminate half of the problem by using a pedalboard (which most guys already do these days) and all of the problem by using a guitar with active electronics (heresy to many purists, I know).
Hello! So, basically.. If I'm playing on active EMGs and use for example a coiled cable (which cuts highs) - it will be the same as playing through just plain shorter straight cable?
My buffer is an '80s Japanese Script BOSS CS-2. I also dated a chick named Buffer once too. I found out right away how she got that nick name. And that's all I have to say about that.
There is a small difference between the 18' and the 25' cable, but not enough to matter. If you are on a big stage running 50' or more of cable then yeah, but all those guys run a buffer.
I feel like this is the difference between making a lasagne with 3 cloves of garlic vs 3.05 cloves of garlic. The difference in tone is far less than what you'd get just by picking slightly harder.
cable length so real even he sounded different when he said "18 foot prs cable" compared to the much more dulled out and lower frequency "and 25 foot cable" at 2:15 lmfao
As an electronic engineer I know that the cable isn't has only capacitance but also has impedance and inductance, so, we treat this as an RCL circuit with and AC signal in the input. And to calculate witch frecuencies will be cut at the end of the TX line, we use something called the telegraphist ecuation. but also, when you check the data of the cable, the fabricant tells you witch is the impedance, capacitance and inductance of 1 meter of cable.
When the line is really long, like some kind of way-line or landline perhaps, then the total impedance becomes very important. However, for guitar the inductance of of the cable is totally swamped by the inductance of the guitar circuit itself so the capacitance becomes the dominant effect of the cable.
I knew there was a loss of high end on my guitars,however slight,but changed with the 2 different amp rigs I to play through,a Fender Pro Reverb & a British style head. The cables are not the same length and I am thinking ,your explanation has to be the reason why! Shimmering highs are what I love about tube amps and though old I am , highs still rock my world.You're brilliant and the finest kind , thanks Phil.
I have cables from multiple brands in multiple lengths and my best sounding cable is a 10 foot Lava ELC cable. Yes, I can hear a huge difference in the sound. I play mostly clean, bright percussive stuff through various tube amps (H&K Tubemeister, Fender Blues Deluxe, Peavey Delta Blues) with single coil pickups, and the longer cables sound like a blanket is thrown on my amp. There is a huge loss in clarity. This is fine if you're doing high gain stuff, but for delicate stuff like I play, it's a huge deal.
In the olden days we experimented with unshielded lamp cords, nine foot was the limit (IIRC) before 60Hz overwhelmed the signal. Somehow I had associated that with the 18 foot thing.
I build my own out of Kineer [sp?] wire ... low Q low noise no crackle if you step on it ... made for mic cables so I use both hots for the signal and float the shield on one end ... bought a roll and some Switchcraft ends 25 years ago and never looked back. Plus the stuff is slinkier than snot and lays on the stage without kinks and if I ever have one fail [I usually have a 50' and a 25' at any one time] I chop it up into patch cords.
I did hear a SLIGHT difference. Having said that, here's a whacky idea - when using a long cable, turn up the treble control on the amp! Just a thought ;)
You can't gain back what you've already lost by boosting the signal without raising the noise floor. Even then, you won't get back exactly what you lost.
A little treble boost is often all you need to get the job done of course. But to split hairs, the cable capacitance is essentially in parallel with the stay capacitance of your pickups. So it is actually lowering their resonant frequency, above which is a 12dB/octave roll-off. So cranking the treble is not really restoring their true treble character.
Back in the days of JBL 120 / 123 /131 - Speakers with aluminum dustcaps long guitar cables have been used to tame the harsh high end of those speakers. If you watch old live videos of Black Sabbath, Jimmy Hendrix and other musicians of the 1960's and 70's and if you are lucky enough that the camera took a shot from the side of the stack, you often will see a long cable lying on the floor. This is the length they didn't need for the stage, but for taming the high end of the speakers.
Buffers are interesting. I made my own pedal called the Buff Dude that has a rotary dial that goes through all the types (BJT, JFET, MOSFET, OPAMP, and INVERT OPAMP). Its interesting as it allows you to hear all the subtleties of the different methods of buffering.
Have you tried a spectrum analyzer? In one instance, I was able to see sections of frequency ranges with no volume to them, making the sound thin. This was a wireless into 20 foot cable into my boss pedals. Switched to a 6" cable and it was perfect. No idea what the cause was, but the android app made it easy to see what was going on.
The input z of the pedal is probably double that of the valve amp. So that's not quite a fair comparison. But this stuff is interesting, and hugely misunderstood by musicians in general. A short cable can have more capacitance than a long cord. It really depends on the type of cable that the manufacturer uses. Phil, why not actually measure the capacitance of these cables?
Phil, great insight.. how does a wireless system compare? Are they not having built in pre-amps to compensate for signal loss as you describe. For that matter would a boost pedal improve the losses of the highs in a long cable situation? Love your channel..
Capacitive loss works like a low pass filter, but before a buffer this interacts with your guitars pickups and controls, so the result is a bit more complex. You can maybe compensate with some smart use of an eq, but a straight amplifying boost won't work. You'll just have a louder, less bright sound. Some wireless units do have a cable compensation sim. When i was using an old one on a passive bass i was rolling back the tone a little because it was quite bright and had more fingernail in the tone. It's much easier to deal with too much bright with an eq tweak than putting the lost high end bqck in.
BJ Stein Which side of a pedalboard is cabled vs. which side is wireless? Seems to me I'd go wireless into the pedalboard, then wire the board to the amp.
@@joshuafreedman7703 this is the usual way. Particularly as high gain amp users tend to have modulation and delay pedals in the FX loop. This means 3 cables between pedalboard and amp on addition to the wireless in from the guitar (or conventional guitar cable)
My wireless unit has a switch that emulates 50 feet of cable. I love it. A Strat on a clean channel can get pretty honest up there and to roll off some of that frequency the makes my dog wince is a nice feature. I call it the "dog switch". He won't come near me if it's off, he will when it's on. And my MXR 10 band EQ has a lot of effect on the highs as well.
For the Future it would be nice if you could put a download link in the description with uncompressed audio. Trough RUclips, with its own amount of compression, I could just hear that you played different so slightly.
Phil great video ....This is all true and as bedroom or weekend players with friends you will notice the difference .....But big stage acts already know how to fix this problem .....Thanks again Phil ...
The "high frequency" rolloff is real. But most people lose the ability to hear those frequencies as they get older. A young person will hear the difference a lot more than older people.
Just to add my point of view . I have been in bands since 1963 . I do not use pedals , I do not use cables over 12 foot long . I have tried wireless systems , and hated them ! Usually a Strat plugged into a Fender Vibrolux . Volume needs to be at least on 4 on amp, guitar volume on 10 . 45 watts seems to be just right . More and there is too much headroom , less and not enough headroom . I might sound fussy , but I am always happy with my tone . I play mostly bars on weekends , jamming on Blues and Classic rock .
I definitely heard the difference, though my brain wanted to interpret the higher capacitance examples as slightly "warmer". Great job on the video, by the way. Your production quality has greatly improved!
@@TL-angzarr . . . . not really. Sure, it can show frequency responses beyond human hearing (and so don't really matter in the practical sense). But the "vice versa" bit isn't true - if folks claim they can "hear differences" where a spectrum analyzer doesn't show a difference, they're imagining it.
@@mikee6666 Sorry but it's not entirely true. There are harmonics and harmonic interactions that don't show up on a frequency analyzer that you can hear. You have to understand your brain interprets the frequencies that you hear. It's a biological adaptation. Where a frequency analyzer does none of that. They aren't ears
Cables are measured in capacitance per foot. As the length of the cable increases so does the capacitance, thus the decrease in treble response. However a non active guitar, which is essentially a non buffered has a lower impedance and output, suffers a much greater loss on a long cable, than active guitar which has a higher impedance and signal. Thus, a country guitarist who’s playing an old telecaster into a longer cable, needs a lower capacity cable, and or a buffer box or buffer built into the guitar. A buffer between the cable and amp is useless, the signal is already decayed. A buffer between the instrument and cable is useful, as the signal is stronger, thus decays less through the length of the cable.
Hi Phil...I did pick the the 25ft cable out in the blind test (A) but didn’t really hear a big difference in the buffer test...that being said are all wah pedals buffered? I use an EHX Crying Tone...and lastly where in the pedal chain is the best place to put a buffer pedal? Thanks for the great videos! 🎸🔊🎶🤘🏻
Good video Phillip. Could you also do one one the QUALITY of guitar cables. Which one(s) do you think are best for the money or just plain BEST quality.
I was very skeptical at the start of the video, but I heard a significant difference between the two cables, even in the blind test. The 18 ft. cable sounded much fuller and brighter than the 25. The pedal helped retain some of the frequencies, but I could still hear a difference between it and the 18.
You should do an audio spectrum check to see where the highs cut out. Maybe even run as many cables as you can for the longest length possible and see how that sounds.
This is why you should have a buffered bypass pedal upfront of your board... If you dont have that. Get a buffer. All issues fixed. (if you have a really exceptionally long pedalboard you should get a buffer at the end of the board as well.. Or get rid of a lot of pedals. You don't need that much)
Yes and no. Having a buffered pedal sorts the distance from that pedal to the amp, but does nothing about the distance between the guitar and said pedal. Probably a moot point for a lot of guitar players - rooted to the spot, and only need a short lead to the pedal board at their feet. But using my rig as an example, sometimes I just have 2-3 always on (or nearly always) effects that I'll leave on top of the amp, so depending on how far away from the amp I am and how much I'll be moving around I could theoretically need quite a lengthy cable, meaning cable capacitance could be a considerable issue regardless of any buffering I'd have amongst the effects. (Also a moot point since I'd be wireless, lol, but hope you get what I'm meaning.)
Found out about cable capacitance completely by accident after years of guitar playing. My electric rig for many years consisted of a Pod running into two powered speakers. A buffered setup, so obviously cable capacitance was never an issue. (And for the record, a fantastic sounding setup that I still use a lot, and that gets plenty of compliments for the great tones.) About 3 or 4 years ago I got an all-tube half stack. I was getting fantastic tone out of it, but for the life of me couldn't understand why I was getting such an inconsistent tone. I could dime the tone one day, leave the settings, and the next day it would just miss the mark. After scratching my head over the issue for a couple of weeks, I coincidentally saw a RUclips vid explaining cable capacitance. All of a sudden it made sense. I swapped and compared the guitar leads I had been using, and sure enough, cable capacitance was the culprit. The difference between using a 3m lead and a 6m lead was as clear as day. That's what made me decide to go wireless in the end, the quest for consistency. For me personally, wireless provides the clearest and most consistent tone.
Now that I think about it, that's the same way I found out about treble bleed and the volume pot! Lol. I acquired a Strat that had extremely noticeable treble loss whenever I used the Vol. I just automatically assumed there was something wrong with the electronics or something. Went online to find out how to go about fixing it, and kept reading that all guitars do it since that's just how electronics work. "BS! None of my other guitars have ever done it!" says the grumpy me. But I plugged in a couple of other gats and listened out for it. And sure enough, clear as day (once I was listening for it), there was the treble loss on them too. Had honestly just not noticed it before. (Mind you, I was deliberately changing my playing style at the time, which would explain it. Used to just turn Vol and Tone all the way up, but was getting into the habit of using them properly to have more control and options over the tone and gain.) Each to their own, but honestly can't stand the tone being changed by the Vol, that's what the Tone is for imo. So now I always install treble bleeds on my guitars, custom values to get it as neutral as possible with a slight erring in preference of keeping more higher frequencies.
There is s a difference but how much that difference matters in a live situation I doubt would be a problem. Also, you can use a cable that has a silver core which sounds noticeably brighter to compensate. I have 2 such cables and when I plug straight into an Amp with them they are too bright so I don't normally like them.
Huh. How does it compare to a wireless system then? Because I've been seeing professional bands using wireless for ages and I was always curious if the difference is negligible or if you have to trade frequencies for maneuverability.
On the 18 you appear from the camera angle to be strumming slightly nearer the bridge which could explain the audible difference (looking relative to the neck pickup, maybe half an inch further back). Not saying cable length doesn’t matter on high end loss - it does - but your strumming position matters also. Looper pedal would have removed that (potential) variable...
The looper pedal will also buffer the signal, and remove the effect entirely. (technically, it would just push the roll-off frequency way above audible)
Listening on a pair of RF Sennheizers, I nailed the blind test. And I did hear a very mild change in tone. Nothing a little boost from a pedal board won't fix :) The 18 ft. sound the clearest of the bunch hands down. the 25ft was fine but a bit more muddy. Both of them with the booster, still quite noticable vs the 18 ft. But again, nothing a pedalboard won't fix. we guiartist tend to fiddle around with tones, LOL
The capacitance of cables is no illusion, but more basic ac electronics...and it certainly effects more than guitars especially as the frequency increases.
can i use eq pedal to compensate for signal lost..i have a 26ft cable, is adjusting high frequencies on the eq pedal solves the problem? my signal path is guitar-26ft cable-boss TU3-boss ge7-drive pedals, etc. thanks!!
What I was noticing is that the tail end seemed to ring out a little more, if that makes sense, but not much other difference. To be honest that could be an issue of using devices that run software and have volume leveling controls in the whole thing. I would imagine that it sounds slightly differen, at least, if you are physically there. I may go by my local music store and ask them to repeat the test. The guys there are good people and generally will do anything that seems interresting and adds something different to their day lol.
Buffers are always a good idea if you use pedals. Unplugged I didn't think I would hear a difference but there was a slight bit of high end that was lost with the longer cable. The buffer brought some but not all of it back. I would have liked to hear the 18' and then 25' and then the 18' into the tuner into the 25' and see what was lost and restored because it didn't feel like everything came back... maybe 90-95% there?
It's almost indiscernible, but I know it happens, I've heard it IRL. Maybe it's the range of the Zoom? maybe recording DI into an audio interface would make it more noticeable?
The difference is quite noticeable. I didn't expect the blind test, so I closed my eyes on the first test and could easily tell the 25 from the 18. Don't know how vital it is, but it is very interesting to me as an audiophile. The same problem facts audiophiles and their speaker cables--higher capacitance leads to lost fidelity. Thanks, man!
Because a good long cable is a lot cheaper than a good wireless system, and basically fool-proof? That was the deciding factor for me when I was playing out. When recording it might make a bigger difference if you have bionic ears, but I'll bet you lunch the vast majority of long cables are used by folks who are playing live or practicing/rehearsing a lot, not in the studio.
Good video, Phil (as usual). IMHO, the battle of the cables is a waste of breath. Give me a cable (any length, preferably it reaches my amp) of good quality that won't get broken circuits at the plugs, and I'm happy. Also, I would imagine that the roll off of treble will occur with any length of cord to a varying degree. When it reaches an unacceptable level, go shorter. I don't think that any particular length (eg, 18 ft) is magical.
I'm surprised but I was able to notice. It's possible I did because I expected the highs to be different. It might be that I use big stereo speakers to watch youtube on the TV as well but the difference was really noticeable when I was analyzing the overtones. The overtones on the longer cable "danced/stirred" less with each other while the shorter cable's overtones from the chords were kind of wild and way less restrained. In other words, the longer cable's overtones were more restrained and focused while the overtones on the shorter cable were more noticeable, making the notes less defined because the overtones were heard moving a lot more. This is cool and thanks for the info. It's definitely noticeable and I think both have their possibilities and place. Someone who wants more individual note definition and less messy overtones in their signal chain should definitely consider longer cables while people who are going for more texture and wild, overtone rich tones should consider shorter cables.
Thanks for acknowledging cable capacitance. It's inevitably not mentioned by most guitar cable vendors. I'm not sure ultra-low resistance cable is good here, it's perhaps a speaker wire thing?
Hi Phil, great video. I noticed you showed a picture of the coil type cable. How does that compare to the straight cables and is there a specific reason for the coils?
I feel that when you added the buffer your lows quite took a hit . The sound is much richer and natural without the pedal. For sure you would not notice this in a live gig but there is still a significant dif between all the variants you presented
I seem to remember hearing a story about one of the classic guitarists (I want to say Bo Diddley) consciously choosing to use a 100 foot cable on stage because he liked the sound.
Buddy Guy used to use a 100+ foot cable, to the extent that he referred to his tech as his "cable valet". He used to occasionally end up playing outside the club! As he was playing a maple neck strat through a silverface twin, it kinda makes sense that he'd want to scrape some of the top end out of his tone...
There's a practical advantage to this. 18 ft is enough for most gigging musicians and 2 ft less cable means less weight and space taken up in your accessory bag/case. Maybe not a big deal, but every little helps. I've actually cut down my 20ft cables to 18 for this reason.
The Secret is..... "Thicker the Guitar Cable Gauge", "{Less Resistance}. I notice it when I had custom cables made for my Amp head for my speaker cab...
Actually resistance doesn't matter with a high impedance guitar output. You would need a few thousand feet of cable before the resistance meant anything. What does matter is the capacitance per foot, and larger diameter cables often have less capacitance (per foot), letting you run a longer cable.
How do you explain Zakk Wylde leaving the stage, and walking far as hell away from the stage and into the crowd and still have strong signal and NOT be wireless. I saw him at Experience Hendrix. I was amazed at the length of the cable AAAANNNNNND him still getting clear guitar signal/sound at the distance he was.
Impedances, and/or whatever EQ/pedals/amps he was using. It's pretty simple overall, but despite the oversimplified explainations most guitar videos provide, there is a ton more to the story than cable capacitance = dull tone. Higher capacitance alone won't necessarily make the signal sound dull. If you plug into a buffer, for example, you can use a super long cable while retaining much of your treble. It all depends on the impedance of what you plug into, along with the effects and EQing after, which I'd be almost certain a pro musician like Zakk uses.
Im pretty sure he uses EMG pick ups. Those are active. Plus it might now matter to him or his tone. These types of videos and talks are about explaining someones thought or logic. For ever example there is another example. PS. Zakk is amazing!
What about cabling into and out of effects loops? Does the length matter? Where would a buffer or buffers be most effective? I use a 10 ft cable into my Fractal FX8 and three 18 ft cables for my 4CM setup.
The simple answer about a buffer is that the nearer you can put a buffer to the guitar (in other words - the shorter the cable from guitar to buffer) the less capacitative loading there will be on the guitar. You should be able to fit any reasonable length of cable between the buffer output and the amplifier, including all the cables in any effects hook up, and it will have no effect on your guitars sound. So place your buffer in front of your effects. However some distortion pedals such as the classic fuzz circuit, are intended to be connected directly to the guitar. If you have a Fuzz Face, place that first, followed by the buffer.
@@Markle2k Certainly you can, but an outboard buffer is perhaps more flexible because you can plug in any guitar, rather than having to have an active buffer in every guitar you might use.
I only use those for the stage despite I usually don't need more than 12 ft. Best results with an active guitar. Also i have 18 ft just to have one... But for practice and whatever daily use I stick to 10 ft. The sound is good and you can still move.
Actually like the slight reduction of high end with a longer cable. Takes away some of the harshness. I've tried backing down the tone control on the guitar very slightly or even on the effects on my board, but it still sounds better with a longer cord from the guitar to the pedal board, and a long cord from the pedal board to the amp.
You could also technically solder in a low value capacitor on the guitars output. Probably like 100pf up to 470pf. I think Reverend used to do this on some of their guitars. They would solder the capacitor directly across the output jack. Some people would snip the capacitor out, and I think Reverend themselves even mentioned snipping it for more brightness.
That's what the tone knob does... It blends in a capacitor into the circuit. A standard Les Paul has a .022uF capacitor which is the same as dialing in anywhere from zero to 733 feet of cable.
Sorry, but it doesn't sound the same with the tone control as compared to a longer cord. My wireless even has a switch that supposedly simulates the length of a longer cord. Even my friends that have the exact same wireless say the same thing. And no, we are not Eric Johnson with golden ears. Even Stevie Ray Vaughan's guitar tech tried to get Stevie to use high grade cables. Stevie didn't like them and said they "Passed too much electricity." Why didn't he just use the high grade cables and turn the tone control down? But to each his own. Whatever sounds good to you, is good. What ever sounds good to me, is good. It would be boring if we all did the same thing.
“So how do you get your unique tone?”
“ everyone else uses an 18’ cable, i use a 19’ cable”
.....🤯...🤦🏻♂️
It also depends a lot on the impedance of the pickups, and the resistance of the pots. A lower impedance source is going to be less affected. An extreme example would be an active pickup, which shouldn't be audibly affected by long cables.
There's such a slight difference, it's hard to tell if I'm only hearing it because I expect to hear it or if it's just due to the slight differences in playing each time.
Yeah, It's nothing that can't be fixed by turning up the highs in the amp EQ
I could definitely hear it in the blind test... but only because I was explicitly listening for it. If you played me the two clips, with no context, I may not have been able to tell the difference as easily. Or, I suspect I might have heard a slight difference, but couldn't tell you what it was.
@@NoOne-ye5jf An EQ sure helps, but doesn't quite fix it in the strictest sense. If you're losing the highs (which is what happens with cable capacitance), then you can't turn up what you don't have. A buffered pedal early in the chain really is the better option so you don't lose those highs in the first place. (But of course that then opens up the issue of buffered pedals colouring the tone, which is a whole other kettle of fish.)
@@NoOne-ye5jf In certain cases, increasing the treble frequencies to compensate for frequency degradation will increase inherent noise.
Because it's 5 meters? That was a wild guess at the beginning of the video
Actually closer to 5.5m, but good guess. Now if you see 6ft cables, that's pretty much 1.8m, a common length.
Guitars with active electronics do not have any of these issues because the electronics present a very low impedance output signal - just like pedals. The run from the pedalboard to the amp should not be considered in the "length to the amp" calculation because nearly all modern pedals provide a low impedance output that isn't subject to the loss of a passive cable. So you can eliminate half of the problem by using a pedalboard (which most guys already do these days) and all of the problem by using a guitar with active electronics (heresy to many purists, I know).
or a pedal with a buffer :)
Hello! So, basically.. If I'm playing on active EMGs and use for example a coiled cable (which cuts highs) - it will be the same as playing through just plain shorter straight cable?
My buffer is an '80s Japanese Script BOSS CS-2. I also dated a chick named Buffer once too. I found out right away how she got that nick name. And that's all I have to say about that.
There is a small difference between the 18' and the 25' cable, but not enough to matter. If you are on a big stage running 50' or more of cable then yeah, but all those guys run a buffer.
you are so knowledgeable about equipment. it blows my mind.
I feel like this is the difference between making a lasagne with 3 cloves of garlic vs 3.05 cloves of garlic.
The difference in tone is far less than what you'd get just by picking slightly harder.
nuberiffic 😜😜😜😆😆😆
cable length so real even he sounded different when he said "18 foot prs cable" compared to the much more dulled out and lower frequency "and 25 foot cable" at 2:15 lmfao
As an electronic engineer I know that the cable isn't has only capacitance but also has impedance and inductance, so, we treat this as an RCL circuit with and AC signal in the input. And to calculate witch frecuencies will be cut at the end of the TX line, we use something called the telegraphist ecuation. but also, when you check the data of the cable, the fabricant tells you witch is the impedance, capacitance and inductance of 1 meter of cable.
When the line is really long, like some kind of way-line or landline perhaps, then the total impedance becomes very important. However, for guitar the inductance of of the cable is totally swamped by the inductance of the guitar circuit itself so the capacitance becomes the dominant effect of the cable.
I've always wondered what was up w/ them making weird lengths of cable. You can hear a difference.
Thanks Phil!
"I think he meant with his ear" Good one Phil!
Dang I have a new founding and perspective on these! Really interesting insight, especially as one who owns a lot!
I always wondered why that length was the maximum, and now I know. Thanks!
I knew there was a loss of high end on my guitars,however slight,but changed with the 2 different amp rigs I to play through,a Fender Pro Reverb & a British style head. The cables are not the same length and I am thinking ,your explanation has to be the reason why! Shimmering highs are what I love about tube amps and though old I am , highs still rock my world.You're brilliant and the finest kind , thanks Phil.
I have cables from multiple brands in multiple lengths and my best sounding cable is a 10 foot Lava ELC cable. Yes, I can hear a huge difference in the sound. I play mostly clean, bright percussive stuff through various tube amps (H&K Tubemeister, Fender Blues Deluxe, Peavey Delta Blues) with single coil pickups, and the longer cables sound like a blanket is thrown on my amp. There is a huge loss in clarity. This is fine if you're doing high gain stuff, but for delicate stuff like I play, it's a huge deal.
In the olden days we experimented with unshielded lamp cords, nine foot was the limit (IIRC) before 60Hz overwhelmed the signal. Somehow I had associated that with the 18 foot thing.
thats why you usually always should have 1 pedal with a buffer on your pedal board.
I wish you would of added a 10ft or less in the mix, but great video as always. Rock on!
What this guy doesn't know, isn't worth knowing. He is the best.
I build my own out of Kineer [sp?] wire ... low Q low noise no crackle if you step on it ... made for mic cables so I use both hots for the signal and float the shield on one end ... bought a roll and some Switchcraft ends 25 years ago and never looked back. Plus the stuff is slinkier than snot and lays on the stage without kinks and if I ever have one fail [I usually have a 50' and a 25' at any one time] I chop it up into patch cords.
Man, that’s subtle! But it’s there for sure.
I did hear a SLIGHT difference. Having said that, here's a whacky idea - when using a long cable, turn up the treble control on the amp! Just a thought ;)
Or just get an EQ pedal
You can't. You could only do it if the treble control on your amp worked *exactly* on the same frequencies, but it doesn't.
You can't gain back what you've already lost by boosting the signal without raising the noise floor. Even then, you won't get back exactly what you lost.
A little treble boost is often all you need to get the job done of course. But to split hairs, the cable capacitance is essentially in parallel with the stay capacitance of your pickups. So it is actually lowering their resonant frequency, above which is a 12dB/octave roll-off. So cranking the treble is not really restoring their true treble character.
@@RobMods Makes sense. Point taken. Thanks :)
I use a 20 ft coiled cable because I actually like those higher frequencies to be rolled off.
I heard Santana did this as well
In pusuit of tone you are . Found it you have ;)
Soooo . . . . there's this thing on guitars called a "Tone Knob" . . . .
:-|
lol ;-)
Isn't that about 4 miles in actual copper length? Like the intestines?
That was a small part of Hendrix tone too
I love learning new stuff like this. Always wondered about this but forget to look up after I leave the shop. Thank you for these!!!
Back in the days of JBL 120 / 123 /131 - Speakers with aluminum dustcaps long guitar cables have been used to tame the harsh high end of those speakers.
If you watch old live videos of Black Sabbath, Jimmy Hendrix and other musicians of the 1960's and 70's and if you are lucky enough that the camera took a shot from the side of the stack, you often will see a long cable lying on the floor. This is the length they didn't need for the stage, but for taming the high end of the speakers.
Same with Buddy Guy. 100+ feet of cable made a maple neck Strat & a silverface Twin usable without shredding everybodys ears...
Buffers are interesting. I made my own pedal called the Buff Dude that has a rotary dial that goes through all the types (BJT, JFET, MOSFET, OPAMP, and INVERT OPAMP). Its interesting as it allows you to hear all the subtleties of the different methods of buffering.
Thank you for the vids! Always learn SOMETHING I didn't know before!
Have you tried a spectrum analyzer? In one instance, I was able to see sections of frequency ranges with no volume to them, making the sound thin. This was a wireless into 20 foot cable into my boss pedals. Switched to a 6" cable and it was perfect. No idea what the cause was, but the android app made it easy to see what was going on.
Great video and explanation! I never knew that the Boss tuner was a buffer pedal. Thanks!!!
The input z of the pedal is probably double that of the valve amp. So that's not quite a fair comparison. But this stuff is interesting, and hugely misunderstood by musicians in general. A short cable can have more capacitance than a long cord. It really depends on the type of cable that the manufacturer uses. Phil, why not actually measure the capacitance of these cables?
Well, With my hearing loss, the highs are already gone😁
Phil, great insight.. how does a wireless system compare? Are they not having built in pre-amps to compensate for signal loss as you describe. For that matter would a boost pedal improve the losses of the highs in a long cable situation? Love your channel..
Capacitive loss works like a low pass filter, but before a buffer this interacts with your guitars pickups and controls, so the result is a bit more complex. You can maybe compensate with some smart use of an eq, but a straight amplifying boost won't work. You'll just have a louder, less bright sound.
Some wireless units do have a cable compensation sim. When i was using an old one on a passive bass i was rolling back the tone a little because it was quite bright and had more fingernail in the tone. It's much easier to deal with too much bright with an eq tweak than putting the lost high end bqck in.
BJ Stein Which side of a pedalboard is cabled vs. which side is wireless?
Seems to me I'd go wireless into the pedalboard, then wire the board to the amp.
@@joshuafreedman7703 this is the usual way. Particularly as high gain amp users tend to have modulation and delay pedals in the FX loop. This means 3 cables between pedalboard and amp on addition to the wireless in from the guitar (or conventional guitar cable)
My wireless unit has a switch that emulates 50 feet of cable. I love it. A Strat on a clean channel can get pretty honest up there and to roll off some of that frequency the makes my dog wince is a nice feature. I call it the "dog switch". He won't come near me if it's off, he will when it's on. And my MXR 10 band EQ has a lot of effect on the highs as well.
For the Future it would be nice if you could put a download link in the description with uncompressed audio. Trough RUclips, with its own amount of compression, I could just hear that you played different so slightly.
It didn't affect John Fogerty in that Old Man Down The Road video. That was a long ass cable too. 😁
I could totally hear the difference, even just listening on my phone
Right, looking for it, the 18ft was brighter! Surprising...
I heard it too...no question
Phil great video ....This is all true and as bedroom or weekend players with friends you will notice the difference .....But big stage acts already know how to fix this problem .....Thanks again Phil ...
The "high frequency" rolloff is real. But most people lose the ability to hear those frequencies as they get older. A young person will hear the difference a lot more than older people.
Same with singing. As you age you can't hit the high notes anymore.
Hey , I'm 67 and I heard the difference on the " blind " test 😳
@@chrisw5742 Tell that to Sammy Hagar and Rob Halford.
@@SaintFredrocks Next time I see them maybe.
Just to add my point of view . I have been in bands since 1963 . I do not use pedals , I do not use cables over 12 foot long . I have tried wireless systems , and hated them ! Usually a Strat plugged into a Fender Vibrolux . Volume needs to be at least on 4 on amp, guitar volume on 10 . 45 watts seems to be just right . More and there is too much headroom , less and not enough headroom . I might sound fussy , but I am always happy with my tone . I play mostly bars on weekends , jamming on Blues and Classic rock .
I definitely heard the difference, though my brain wanted to interpret the higher capacitance examples as slightly "warmer".
Great job on the video, by the way. Your production quality has greatly improved!
Let's see spectrum analyzer images.
Definitely!
Do you hear with a spectrum analyzer? Things can get measured that may not be heard and vice versus
So, you listen to cables?
@@TL-angzarr . . . . not really. Sure, it can show frequency responses beyond human hearing (and so don't really matter in the practical sense). But the "vice versa" bit isn't true - if folks claim they can "hear differences" where a spectrum analyzer doesn't show a difference, they're imagining it.
@@mikee6666 Sorry but it's not entirely true. There are harmonics and harmonic interactions that don't show up on a frequency analyzer that you can hear. You have to understand your brain interprets the frequencies that you hear. It's a biological adaptation. Where a frequency analyzer does none of that. They aren't ears
I wish you have included a 5-6 ft cord so we could really hear the difference.
Cables are measured in capacitance per foot. As the length of the cable increases so does the capacitance, thus the decrease in treble response.
However a non active guitar, which is essentially a non buffered has a lower impedance and output, suffers a much greater loss on a long cable, than active guitar which has a higher impedance and signal.
Thus, a country guitarist who’s playing an old telecaster into a longer cable, needs a lower capacity cable, and or a buffer box or buffer built into the guitar.
A buffer between the cable and amp is useless, the signal is already decayed.
A buffer between the instrument and cable is useful, as the signal is stronger, thus decays less through the length of the cable.
Active pickups still have output resistors, so they are not immune to cable capacitance.
slap_my_hand,
Yes I agree.
It’s that active guitars and basses tend to have less of a problem than non active instruments.
Hi Phil...I did pick the the 25ft cable out in the blind test (A) but didn’t really hear a big difference in the buffer test...that being said are all wah pedals buffered? I use an EHX Crying Tone...and lastly where in the pedal chain is the best place to put a buffer pedal? Thanks for the great videos! 🎸🔊🎶🤘🏻
Good video Phillip. Could you also do one one the QUALITY of guitar cables. Which one(s) do you think are best for the money or just plain BEST quality.
I was very skeptical at the start of the video, but I heard a significant difference between the two cables, even in the blind test. The 18 ft. cable sounded much fuller and brighter than the 25. The pedal helped retain some of the frequencies, but I could still hear a difference between it and the 18.
I usually cannot pick up on minute sound differences. But even through the speakers on my macbook, I could detect a subtle difference.
Good video but the difference is noticeable to buy new cables. Thanks Phil
Yeah not a huge difference, but these things stack-up on aggregate, so you gotta so whatever you can whenever you can to keep the overall result good.
You should do an audio spectrum check to see where the highs cut out. Maybe even run as many cables as you can for the longest length possible and see how that sounds.
This is why you should have a buffered bypass pedal upfront of your board... If you dont have that. Get a buffer.
All issues fixed.
(if you have a really exceptionally long pedalboard you should get a buffer at the end of the board as well.. Or get rid of a lot of pedals. You don't need that much)
Yes and no.
Having a buffered pedal sorts the distance from that pedal to the amp, but does nothing about the distance between the guitar and said pedal. Probably a moot point for a lot of guitar players - rooted to the spot, and only need a short lead to the pedal board at their feet. But using my rig as an example, sometimes I just have 2-3 always on (or nearly always) effects that I'll leave on top of the amp, so depending on how far away from the amp I am and how much I'll be moving around I could theoretically need quite a lengthy cable, meaning cable capacitance could be a considerable issue regardless of any buffering I'd have amongst the effects. (Also a moot point since I'd be wireless, lol, but hope you get what I'm meaning.)
TRUE! I have like 15 pedals in ONE... BOSS ME-70
Found out about cable capacitance completely by accident after years of guitar playing.
My electric rig for many years consisted of a Pod running into two powered speakers. A buffered setup, so obviously cable capacitance was never an issue. (And for the record, a fantastic sounding setup that I still use a lot, and that gets plenty of compliments for the great tones.)
About 3 or 4 years ago I got an all-tube half stack. I was getting fantastic tone out of it, but for the life of me couldn't understand why I was getting such an inconsistent tone. I could dime the tone one day, leave the settings, and the next day it would just miss the mark.
After scratching my head over the issue for a couple of weeks, I coincidentally saw a RUclips vid explaining cable capacitance. All of a sudden it made sense. I swapped and compared the guitar leads I had been using, and sure enough, cable capacitance was the culprit. The difference between using a 3m lead and a 6m lead was as clear as day.
That's what made me decide to go wireless in the end, the quest for consistency. For me personally, wireless provides the clearest and most consistent tone.
Now that I think about it, that's the same way I found out about treble bleed and the volume pot! Lol.
I acquired a Strat that had extremely noticeable treble loss whenever I used the Vol. I just automatically assumed there was something wrong with the electronics or something. Went online to find out how to go about fixing it, and kept reading that all guitars do it since that's just how electronics work.
"BS! None of my other guitars have ever done it!" says the grumpy me. But I plugged in a couple of other gats and listened out for it. And sure enough, clear as day (once I was listening for it), there was the treble loss on them too. Had honestly just not noticed it before. (Mind you, I was deliberately changing my playing style at the time, which would explain it. Used to just turn Vol and Tone all the way up, but was getting into the habit of using them properly to have more control and options over the tone and gain.)
Each to their own, but honestly can't stand the tone being changed by the Vol, that's what the Tone is for imo. So now I always install treble bleeds on my guitars, custom values to get it as neutral as possible with a slight erring in preference of keeping more higher frequencies.
To get the absolute BEST TONE POSSIBLE I use a 6 inch patch cable. I can’t move around much but my tone is AWESOME!!!!
IT'll sound twice as good if you go with the 3"!!
THRASH METAL & FUN RIFFS 3 INCHES!!! YOU ARE A MADMAN!!!!!
There is s a difference but how much that difference matters in a live situation I doubt would be a problem. Also, you can use a cable that has a silver core which sounds noticeably brighter to compensate. I have 2 such cables and when I plug straight into an Amp with them they are too bright so I don't normally like them.
Hi Phil can you make a video on wireless vs cables
Slight difference, but definitely there. Cool video.
Huh. How does it compare to a wireless system then? Because I've been seeing professional bands using wireless for ages and I was always curious if the difference is negligible or if you have to trade frequencies for maneuverability.
No fooling, I believe I heard it too. Once again Phi you have taken us to some place new. Thank you
Like you said I would never notice the difference if it weren’t for the A/B test but this was a very interesting experiment.
On the 18 you appear from the camera angle to be strumming slightly nearer the bridge which could explain the audible difference (looking relative to the neck pickup, maybe half an inch further back). Not saying cable length doesn’t matter on high end loss - it does - but your strumming position matters also. Looper pedal would have removed that (potential) variable...
The looper pedal will also buffer the signal, and remove the effect entirely. (technically, it would just push the roll-off frequency way above audible)
I did 4 takes of each and matched the take that had the same peak to get as close as I could.
nwimpney would depend on the looper pedal...
Listening on a pair of RF Sennheizers, I nailed the blind test. And I did hear a very mild change in tone. Nothing a little boost from a pedal board won't fix :) The 18 ft. sound the clearest of the bunch hands down. the 25ft was fine but a bit more muddy. Both of them with the booster, still quite noticable vs the 18 ft. But again, nothing a pedalboard won't fix. we guiartist tend to fiddle around with tones, LOL
I'm mostly surprised that the silver sky and princeton didn't get into a fist fight. Nice video as always Phil!
The capacitance of cables is no illusion, but more basic ac electronics...and it certainly effects more than guitars especially as the frequency increases.
Thanks for the video and now I may want Wampler buffer boost pedal.
My concern with cables that long is interference noise more than anything.
So then a wireless system should be better than a 25 foot cable. Right???
can i use eq pedal to compensate for signal lost..i have a 26ft cable, is adjusting high frequencies on the eq pedal solves the problem? my signal path is guitar-26ft cable-boss TU3-boss ge7-drive pedals, etc.
thanks!!
What wall hangers do you use for your guitars? They looks so cool!
What I was noticing is that the tail end seemed to ring out a little more, if that makes sense, but not much other difference. To be honest that could be an issue of using devices that run software and have volume leveling controls in the whole thing. I would imagine that it sounds slightly differen, at least, if you are physically there. I may go by my local music store and ask them to repeat the test. The guys there are good people and generally will do anything that seems interresting and adds something different to their day lol.
What about active electronics on the instrument side then? Those output line level, so they should not suffer as much, should they?
Sir, I want to ask for outdoor live music, what length of guitar cable should I use?🙏 I'm from Indonesia 🇮🇩
Buffers are always a good idea if you use pedals. Unplugged I didn't think I would hear a difference but there was a slight bit of high end that was lost with the longer cable. The buffer brought some but not all of it back. I would have liked to hear the 18' and then 25' and then the 18' into the tuner into the 25' and see what was lost and restored because it didn't feel like everything came back... maybe 90-95% there?
Is it everytime the same piece by a loopstation? Or same chords played every time different.
Last cables I bought I cut and soldered it myself. They were 18' because of the size of the room.
It's almost indiscernible, but I know it happens, I've heard it IRL. Maybe it's the range of the Zoom? maybe recording DI into an audio interface would make it more noticeable?
The difference is quite noticeable. I didn't expect the blind test, so I closed my eyes on the first test and could easily tell the 25 from the 18. Don't know how vital it is, but it is very interesting to me as an audiophile. The same problem facts audiophiles and their speaker cables--higher capacitance leads to lost fidelity.
Thanks, man!
Capacitance isn’t a factor with speaker cables.
Wow. Thanks. I totally heard the difference. This helps me out alot
Because a good long cable is a lot cheaper than a good wireless system, and basically fool-proof?
That was the deciding factor for me when I was playing out. When recording it might make a bigger difference if you have bionic ears, but I'll bet you lunch the vast majority of long cables are used by folks who are playing live or practicing/rehearsing a lot, not in the studio.
Good video, Phil (as usual). IMHO, the battle of the cables is a waste of breath. Give me a cable (any length, preferably it reaches my amp) of good quality that won't get broken circuits at the plugs, and I'm happy. Also, I would imagine that the roll off of treble will occur with any length of cord to a varying degree. When it reaches an unacceptable level, go shorter. I don't think that any particular length (eg, 18 ft) is magical.
Great video! I could tell the diference with the blind test!
I'm surprised but I was able to notice. It's possible I did because I expected the highs to be different. It might be that I use big stereo speakers to watch youtube on the TV as well but the difference was really noticeable when I was analyzing the overtones.
The overtones on the longer cable "danced/stirred" less with each other while the shorter cable's overtones from the chords were kind of wild and way less restrained. In other words, the longer cable's overtones were more restrained and focused while the overtones on the shorter cable were more noticeable, making the notes less defined because the overtones were heard moving a lot more.
This is cool and thanks for the info. It's definitely noticeable and I think both have their possibilities and place. Someone who wants more individual note definition and less messy overtones in their signal chain should definitely consider longer cables while people who are going for more texture and wild, overtone rich tones should consider shorter cables.
How do you work on an f hole hollowbody guitar with no back plate? And how does the factory get one put together?
There's a trick to pulling the electronics through the F hole. It's a pain.
Thanks for acknowledging cable capacitance. It's inevitably not mentioned by most guitar cable vendors. I'm not sure ultra-low resistance cable is good here, it's perhaps a speaker wire thing?
Hi Phil, great video. I noticed you showed a picture of the coil type cable. How does that compare to the straight cables and is there a specific reason for the coils?
I feel that when you added the buffer your lows quite took a hit . The sound is much richer and natural without the pedal. For sure you would not notice this in a live gig but there is still a significant dif between all the variants you presented
I seem to remember hearing a story about one of the classic guitarists (I want to say Bo Diddley) consciously choosing to use a 100 foot cable on stage because he liked the sound.
Buddy Guy used to use a 100+ foot cable, to the extent that he referred to his tech as his "cable valet". He used to occasionally end up playing outside the club! As he was playing a maple neck strat through a silverface twin, it kinda makes sense that he'd want to scrape some of the top end out of his tone...
There's a practical advantage to this. 18 ft is enough for most gigging musicians and 2 ft less cable means less weight and space taken up in your accessory bag/case. Maybe not a big deal, but every little helps. I've actually cut down my 20ft cables to 18 for this reason.
The Secret is..... "Thicker the Guitar Cable Gauge", "{Less Resistance}. I notice it when I had custom cables made for my Amp head for my speaker cab...
Actually resistance doesn't matter with a high impedance guitar output. You would need a few thousand feet of cable before the resistance meant anything. What does matter is the capacitance per foot, and larger diameter cables often have less capacitance (per foot), letting you run a longer cable.
How do you explain Zakk Wylde leaving the stage, and walking far as hell away from the stage and into the crowd and still have strong signal and NOT be wireless. I saw him at Experience Hendrix. I was amazed at the length of the cable AAAANNNNNND him still getting clear guitar signal/sound at the distance he was.
Impedances, and/or whatever EQ/pedals/amps he was using. It's pretty simple overall, but despite the oversimplified explainations most guitar videos provide, there is a ton more to the story than cable capacitance = dull tone.
Higher capacitance alone won't necessarily make the signal sound dull. If you plug into a buffer, for example, you can use a super long cable while retaining much of your treble. It all depends on the impedance of what you plug into, along with the effects and EQing after, which I'd be almost certain a pro musician like Zakk uses.
Im pretty sure he uses EMG pick ups. Those are active. Plus it might now matter to him or his tone. These types of videos and talks are about explaining someones thought or logic. For ever example there is another example. PS. Zakk is amazing!
What about cabling into and out of effects loops? Does the length matter? Where would a buffer or buffers be most effective? I use a 10 ft cable into my Fractal FX8 and three 18 ft cables for my 4CM setup.
Effects loops are not all the same so it depends and this would be a great video in itself.
The simple answer about a buffer is that the nearer you can put a buffer to the guitar (in other words - the shorter the cable from guitar to buffer) the less capacitative loading there will be on the guitar. You should be able to fit any reasonable length of cable between the buffer output and the amplifier, including all the cables in any effects hook up, and it will have no effect on your guitars sound. So place your buffer in front of your effects. However some distortion pedals such as the classic fuzz circuit, are intended to be connected directly to the guitar. If you have a Fuzz Face, place that first, followed by the buffer.
@@ResoBridge You can even place a buffer in front of your guitar's output jack. It only takes a few very small components and a power source.
@@Markle2k Certainly you can, but an outboard buffer is perhaps more flexible because you can plug in any guitar, rather than having to have an active buffer in every guitar you might use.
there ought to be a equalizer pedal for unusual wire lengths if it really matters
I could not hear any difference, possibly the speakers that I use on my computer? What happens if I go wireless?
Buffer? Maybe an EQ to compensate the loss?
And how does this work with wireless systems....
I only use those for the stage despite I usually don't need more than 12 ft. Best results with an active guitar. Also i have 18 ft just to have one...
But for practice and whatever daily use I stick to 10 ft. The sound is good and you can still move.
What about wireless systems.....does that have the same limitations?
Actually like the slight reduction of high end with a longer cable. Takes away some of the harshness. I've tried backing down the tone control on the guitar very slightly or even on the effects on my board, but it still sounds better with a longer cord from the guitar to the pedal board, and a long cord from the pedal board to the amp.
I heard Santana uses long cables for the same reason.
You could also technically solder in a low value capacitor on the guitars output. Probably like 100pf up to 470pf. I think Reverend used to do this on some of their guitars. They would solder the capacitor directly across the output jack. Some people would snip the capacitor out, and I think Reverend themselves even mentioned snipping it for more brightness.
That's what the tone knob does... It blends in a capacitor into the circuit. A standard Les Paul has a .022uF capacitor which is the same as dialing in anywhere from zero to 733 feet of cable.
Sorry, but it doesn't sound the same with the tone control as compared to a longer cord. My wireless even has a switch that supposedly simulates the length of a longer cord. Even my friends that have the exact same wireless say the same thing. And no, we are not Eric Johnson with golden ears. Even Stevie Ray Vaughan's guitar tech tried to get Stevie to use high grade cables. Stevie didn't like them and said they "Passed too much electricity." Why didn't he just use the high grade cables and turn the tone control down? But to each his own. Whatever sounds good to you, is good. What ever sounds good to me, is good. It would be boring if we all did the same thing.
A lot of pedals act as buffers. What you said about total cable length is only true if all of your pedals are true bypass.
I am an old truck driver ... always got 18' cable for CB radio and coiled up to reduce noise ... is this the same thing?