Awesome video! Glad to see someone finally took quality close up shots and highlighted all the issues like you'd normally see when holding the parts in hand. This almost never happens on other channels. I've been studying the extrusion inconsistencies on Prusa over the last several weeks and have found at least 2 separate issues at the extruder. Will be posting a model that emphasizes the issues with some potential fixes for one of them.
You're missing another couple of advantages of the Bondtech upgrade. I did it on my MK3s, and there's two things it brings to the party - the gearing lets me get a better experience printing at higher pressures, which I find helpful for polycarbonate. Also useful for PC printing is the better resistance to heat of the SLS printed parts - I warped the PINDA mount in the stock PETG extruder body printing PC. The PINDA was left at a 45 degree angle, which meant I was going to have to rebuild the extruder anyway. For me, those benefits made this upgrade well worth the money - and I've had excellent results with PC since I did it. If you do the upgrade for the same reason, spend the extra $20 to also get the SLS printed sensor parts for best results.
Not sure it's really any force difference as the gearing barely compensates for the much weaker motor. Could be a difference though. Something I've recently noticed is that if the extruder is not perfectly assembled there can be a huge difference in print quality.
I'm late to the party, but how much different are the gears? Bondtech says they're larger with more teeth. What nozzle diameter(s), layer thickness, speeds, etc. do you run with PC? Were you not able to accomplish the pressures needed by adjusting the OEM gear spring pressure or changing the spring itself?
I think we've reached new levels of absurdity between this $110 Bondtech extruder upgrade and Slice Engineering's $300 Copperhead hotend setup for squeezing out that last 0.05% print quality.
Not worth the 110$ (IMO) , besides you dont even get the gears with the upgrade. $110 for some plastic and a pancake stepper :( , kinda seems like 3D printing snakeoil.
I've been out of 3D printing for quite some time and recently got back into it. I purchased an Ultimaker S3 and just purchased an MK3S+. I owned quite a few MK3 machines previously. I converted them all to bondtech. I didn't see huge improvement either. This time around I won't be doing that. As your video indicated, it's not a life changing experience. Also, I'm glad I resubbed to your channel when I picked printing back up. You do have some great content!
I wish this video was out a few months ago, I got a Prusa Mini and quickly started selling a bunch of stuff on Etsy so I needed more printers. Even though the MK3S was much more expensive it had a lower lead time and I figured I could benefit from the "better print quality" over the Mini. After 2 MK3S kits built, the Bondtech extruder upgrade, and 3 weekends later I couldn't get the MK3S to have the same print quality as my Mini. Prusa support's response was "MINI is indeed sensibly more precise than the MK3S+ when looking at the layer resolution", which was the first time I've heard someone say that. I assumed the opposite based on it's reputation and Prusa marketing. Try your tests on the Prusa Mini and if it's working as it should then you should see better results than your Bear MK3S. The Mini has its issues but when it comes to layer consistency, it wins.
Thanks for the Video Chris. It appears that the Bondtech generate a fine stringing. You can see it on the cube and the benchy, could be retraction calibration. Enjoy your upgrade
Thank you for a great test, the close up shots are great with way better detail than many 'Experts'. The fine eye for detail reminds me of how someone would try to convince themself and friends that they really did need the upgrade. The key phrase to such a talk is usually - 'and here it is way better, see layer 2,671 is not correct?? - friend: 'Nope'.
I personally think these issues come from the tmc2130 stepper motor drivers. You should pop in the skr with 2209 drivers and coaster! Thanks Chris great video!
I went with the Bondtech because I wanted to use a hot end that would work with the MMU but not require prints to be ran hotter like the stock Prusa does. This is due to the change Prusa made to the E3D V6 heat break to make it work better with the MMU. So instead I went a bit crazy and got the Mosquito Magnum hot end and the Bondtech extruder. If you are not using the MMU one of the best things you can do is simply to change the heat break to the original E3D V6 and that will get rid of the jamming issues many of us have ran into with the stock hot end. That and an upgrade to the Sunon fan. For the vast majority of people I would recommend not going with the Bondtech/Mosquito route unless you plan on using the MMU. Don't get me wrong I love mine...there are benefits that someone as nit picky as I can be would gladly pay the extra price for...like the ability to change the nozzle with 1 hand. Ironically I haven't yet gotten the MMU for either of my printers and at this point probably won't bother. That said I would love to see you put that Bondtech on the Bear frame and see how much better the print gets :) Also were you using linear advance on those prints? If not tuning that in might help with the extrusion inconsistencies.
I got my prusa bondtech extruder for the better reliability. I had so many jams on my mk3 due to the ptfe tube in the stock extruder jamming and blocking the filament path. the bondtech extruder eliminates that issue.
It's good to see a complete guide with printed parts that aren't 1000% looking perfect, it shows more realistic prints to a home upgrade with little strings coming off of it etc
Chris you scare me. This is the third time you do a video when i‘m thinking about buying a thing. I talked to my wife this morning exactly about the bondtech extruder!
It was interesting. Thank You Chris. Also have you played around with the new all metal "bi metal" hot ends. I would love to see one of those tested on Prusa Mk3S.
Hi Chrs, If the initial gears cause the issue, they should include new ones.... and for that kind of money i would expect new gears in the kit. Still a good compare video and onest advise.. spent it on making your frame etc more ridgit.
I just bought and assembled one of these printers last week. The only disappointment for me was the stock extruder design. The full size heavy extruder motor hanging way out from the support rails. The center of gravity offset from the drive belt location is just a pendulum ready to swing back and forth and wear out the bearings. The bondtech looks better.
Since my original comment below, I'm starting to understand the need for this upgrade. I've been printing flower pots for a local store, and she just placed a huge order, and I've been cranking up the printing speed. I've hit the limit to what a stock Prusa Mk3s can do, so I ordered this extruder in hopes of being able to increase my print speed. I hope to be able to give you a side-by-side comparison of this versus stock in a high-speed setup.
Well, for 110 dollars you get ... different artifacts 😁Whether this upgrade is worth it ... I think both prints are great in any case, and it's our obsession with chasing last per cent to perfection (that notorious 90/10 rule). It looks like frame rigidity plays more important role, especially as height increases.
There is another who exposed the cause of those patterns.. the gears grabbing the filament .. when you tighten the grub screw.. you make the gear slightly less round.. that tiny amount causes the filament to push more and less as it rotates.. so it happens in both.. I have upgraded to the bontech on all my MK3S machines.. well worth it.. and also swapped out the v6 assy to the Phaetus Dragon Hotend, they have longer heat breaks, and work with everything as is.. same heater and thermistor.. just need a shorter PTFE tube, PS there are a bunch of options once you start looking at these..
I just put a Bondtech Mosquito combo on my China Clone MK3s printer, I use it in a heated enclosure, it also has the bear upgrade. I call it "Fire Hazard". The bondtech upgrade made a sizable difference printing faster and in a heated environment. I had issues previously where the stock idler door warped and wouldn't extrude properly. I'm seeing a lot less artifacts on the surface than my original Kit I got from prusa. But I think the market for these is mainly for people that buy clones. Its still a lot cheaper to source all the parts (including bear frame, bondtech and mosquito) than to buy a regular printer kit from prusa. The only downside is you still need to print your own parts, or source them from someone. Its also more for people looking to tinker. I'm looking at putting clipper and input shaper/acceleration control on it. The weight reductions will help a lot going faster using this style of gantry. Love your work, keep it up!
Hi, Chris! 42:52 - the vertical artifacts are most probably the so called "motor ripple". If you're rotating the shaft by hand and feeling those separate clicks pretty noticeably then it's the reason. As far as I know about this stuff. You can check this by using the facts that there are 50 steps (for NEMA17) on 360 degree move and then use the formulas: P_sh = Pi * D_sh // P_sh - shaft's perimeter, D_sh - shaft's diameter. Ratio = St / P_sh // St - 50 steps for NEMA17. Here you'll get the ratio of steps/1mm of linear movement. In my case I've got 0.995 steps/mm. So if I measure 10mm, there will be 9.95 steps. In other cases (with bigger or smaller shafts) you'll get not so close to 1.0 numbers and then *10 (mm) measuring logic will be more logical :) Thus you'll be able to make sure that these vertical lines are because of not so smooth motors. The smoothness can be measured by the force (the weight in kg) that is necessary to start the rotation of a motor's rotor. If you'll convert the rotation to the linear motion and apply a steelyard to measure the weight then you'll get your kg value. So you will be able to compare different motors. Actually I wonder - which motors are installed on your Prusa? I mean the manufacturer and the model. I'm going to replace mine by Hanpose but not sure if they do the best.
@@KiR_3d That might also be. I can't post links here and I don't want to be a smartass here, but at there is an interesting topic at the Prusa forums regarding the use of 0.9 degrees steppermotors. Just Google "stepper motor upgrades to eliminate vfa's".
I think that 95% of the issues I have relates to my Bowden extruder setup. I switched to a Creality extruder, and it helped, but I still have random issues (clicking too yet the heat, etc... means it should never click). I am seriously thinking of doing this to get back to my Original Prusa I3's direct drive. I once tried Bowden on the I3 and went back. My X5S will lose speed, but as it is I have to print 260c, 10% fan, and 30mm/s for PETG and hope it doesn't hiccup.
I think most of the artifacts on the MK3 are caused by the non-linearity of the TMC2130 drivers. I'd love to see Prusa release an updated board that uses 2209s, or see their firmware ported over to another board with 2209 support added.
Hi Chris, came across a reference to one of your videos on a forum where apparently you had a loud BMG noise on retractions and resolved this by lowing the current of the E stepper driver, but I can't seem to find the video this happened in?
I don't remember if that made it to a video or not. I was actually snapping it back to hard and grinding the gear, lowering and slowing it down a bit 50mm/s helped.
I agree, my results were close to yours, and my thinking at the time better extruder to help with MMU2 , which it did of course my Bondtech 2-3 years old ..
Great videos as always! PLEASE do not use Allen wrenches to align you brand new BT gears! Makes me cringe as you can damage the gears with “tool steel”... Use a toothpick or something else that is soft and won’t potentially damage the sharp peaks on your gear. 👊🏼😉
You might want to make note that it is worth going to Bondtech if an owner swaps to a Mosquito Hot End. The Bondtech upgrade with Mosquito is worth every penny.
Great video, however i think that 130USD/EUR are not worth it for the minor upgrades in print quality. I've been going crazy with the inconsistency in extrusion which is clear on that XYZ cube as i have the exact same thing towards the middle of the prints which looks like layer lines are slightly going in and out but i guess it's just a direct drive thing which will not be fixed anytime soon. That said, considering how expensive a Prusa MK3S+ is, i would expect perfection. Starting to think that Prusas are not really worth it if you expect impeccable prints, then again the Bambu X1C is too big for my space so it is what it is :)
I don't think it is about print quality. Seems like you want it for more pushing force. Also, indirect geared drive eliminates the problem of heat moving from the motor to filament gears and soften filament causing jams.
I installed the Bondtech extruder on my Mini a few days ago, and now i can print flexible (A95) Filament. With the 4.3.3 Firmware the Software-Side is changed only with a few Clicks. (No need to open the electronic-Box and changing Wires.) I like the "inbuilt" Filament-Sensor, no dangeling around anymore...
Thanks for making this video, you just saved me from wasting a load of money on the bondtech. I think the simple truth is, the dual gears have to much run out. Increasing the gear ratio wont solve that. Intresting about the bear frame.
Very interesting comparison, but it would have been interesting to use something else that the traditional PLA. I'm interested into printing usable parts and PLA is not my favorite composite. PETG or PETG-CF tests would have been welcomed.
@@quadrokatze4286 My MMU2S is still in the box waiting to be assembled/installed. My MK3S is down due to a failed bed thermistor and I have not had the time to install the new one. I am still running the stock extruder on my MK3S, but updated my Prusa Mini to the Bondtech Extruder and heat break.
Thanks for making this. Please, please, please do one on using the MK3S with an MMU2S, Mosquito and Bondtech extruder upgrade! I've had this setup for months and am desperately trying to get it to reliably print Prusament PLA and Verbatim BVOH so I can print a model with dissolvable supports. I feel like I have tried it all. I've made mod after mod to my MMU2S and just got a NozzleX but it still isn't printing. I feel I am very very close to having a successful print, but the PLA keeps grinding in the extruder during loads, causing them to fail.
I did the Bondtech upgrade on a Prusa Mini, and it was life-changing. My biggest (only) gripe with the Mini is that it didn't come with a geared extruder, but the Mk3S does. I think this upgrade for the Mk3/S is a ripoff, just for the fact that you reuse your own parts, and as someone else said, you get a new stepper motor (and an additional gear). However, I get that people just like to upgrade their stuff, so to each his/her own.
My Mk3S is beginning to show more artifacts after several thousand hours of printing. I am wondering if the linear bearings are wearing out. I am seeing a lot more "candy striping" and what appears to be ringing. I've done belt tightening and calibration. Also the y motor is making a lot of racket when printing. Any thoughts? I have a bondtech kit that is still in the box (with a mosquito.) I don't want to install untill I understand the real issue.
Man... The disassembly of the i3 MK3S Toolhead sure gave me Vietnam Meme like Flashbacks of servicing mine after 3D Printing all the ABS parts for my Voron 2.4 on it... The i3 did _not_ like doing that... Had to basically reprint the entire toolhead ( also upgrading it to the MK3S+ in the process... ) and it was a royal fuckin' pain in the ass. Also having had a filament blob on the Voron Toolhead with it coming apart in like 15 sec for servicing that ( thank the makers for my DIY Silicone Sock protecting the Mosquito Hotend ) didn't really help with my agony against the i3 😑
My MK3S+ suffers pretty badly from the 45 degree moire effect on prints. It's driving me nuts that I'm getting way better surface quality from my Ender3 V2 compared to the Prusa. I understand that this is mostly due to the difference between Bowden and direct drive, but I'm really hoping to find a way to mitigate the effect on my Prusa. Unfortunately, it looks like this upgrade has little impact in that regard. I've seen speculation that it could be due to the steppers used. Has anyone ever tried a MK3(S/+) with TMC2209's to see if that improves things?
I haven't tried 2209's with the Prusa, but I would guess it probably doesn't help much. I am currently having this issue on a different printer and I am going to test a bunch of different stepper motors to see if there is a difference.
There is still MUCH room for improvement. If not, why would Prusa ever create upgrade kits or develop their printers any further? You're not going to find any improvements without testing and trail and error. What did you think about the MK3s+ upgrade? LMAO pretty damn marginal.
@@Adam-my8qx don't get me wrong. I have a Tevo Tornado that the only thing it still has from Tevo is the extrusions. Tinkering with printers is fun in and of itself, and hardly as superfluous as printing action figures. I do have the Mk3s, but that was my first Prusa, so I cannot compare. But this upgrade produces what are at most very marginal improvements, for a really steep price, for which you'll need to recycle parts from your original Prusa (so you don't end up with an extra extruder that you can mount on a cheap secondary printer). As a guy who never saw an upgrade he didn't immediately want, I have a rule: if it doesn't really solve a functional issue (like letting me print flexibles at a reasonable speed or letting me print with a really large nozzle) and doesn't magically turn my fdm prints into something that looks like it came out of a resin printer, it doesn't get bought. Particularly when a resin printer costs what it costs nowadays.
@@carlosperromat3013 I will be honest with you, I installed a bondtech kit on my Mk3s last month and was disappointed. Minimal to no change in print quality. There is more to this upgrade than just print quality that you are overlooking though. I can now more comfortably print in an enclosure which I keep my Prusa in. The carriage is light, and allows for easier maintenance which is something the Prusa needs often @ every 200 working hours or so. It is easier to dissemble for clogs etc and is just a more premium component. With the stock cooling fan I noticed that cooling is also much more efficient for the hotend. My stock prusa ASA fan shroud warped on me, and many others have had their PINDA holder warp. More premium, easier maintenance, better fit and finish. It is not for everyone and if I could go back I probably wouldn't buy it again, but I also don't regret my purchase.
@@Adam-my8qx those are very good reasons indeed. Removing a diagonal pattern you see if you look at it in a certain way, maybe not so much. By the way, I did find that a titanium heatbreak and the bear upgrade (x axis only) design fixed the occasional clogs. If anything, replacing the Noctua fan with the Sunlu probably helped too and you can barely tell the noise difference.
great video as usual chris but i dont think for the diffrances its worth the upgrade you could have probably got the same results if u had set the esteps and the current on the stock extruder and made some firmware tweeks thats just my opinion
Hi All, I have the Prusa MK3/s and currently installing the bond tech upgrade. I have put everything together inside the BondTech but I'm having trouble mounting it back on the rails? The screws don't line up on my x carriage and I do not have the same piece part as seen on this video at 31:54 Can anyone help? Is this part required? Do I have to purchase separately?
Hey! You will need to check out the Prusa printed parts. There are a few different configs. The Bondtech only fits one. If you browse the STL's that should give you an idea of which version you need.
@@ChrisRiley Yes, I had to purchase the x carriage piece separately which I didn't know because I just ordered the Extruder upgrade...school boy error. 😅I have just received the correct piece in the post and will get round to fitting it today or tomorrow. (I hope) Appreciate the reply, keep up the vids 👊💪
@@ChrisRiley Hope you’re doing well bro. Ok, So I’ve managed to finally install the Bondtech upgrade successfully. At first the filliment wasn’t feeding through fast enough so I played with the tension and it started coming out but not as fast/consistent as the original Prusa MK3s stock extruder…🤔 I have been trying so hard to just get a decent print but Ive failed every time and it’s very frustrating. I can’t seem to fix the issues with layer lines? The prints aren’t coming out very well, layers not sticking on top of each other properly, prints look a little (see through) I have some pictures I would like to share with you in hope you can advise me how to rectify the issue… can I email you the pictures or send via another platform if possible? Thanks Chris
I turned off the audio at the comparison point because I didn't want to be swayed by the narrative. What I saw with my own eyes however in the video was not enough of a difference to warrant the $110 price tag. As a matter fact I didn't see enough of a difference to even make it worth doing a swap.
as of today i wanted to upgrade my prusa mk3s, what do you suggest me to do between bear upgrade Caribou Kit or Bondtech Mosquito Magnum (or normal) ? or both two systems ? i have already installed the Bondtech kit with E3D V6.
@@ChrisRiley The Caribou frame upgarde also exists with height 220, I wanted to take it to eliminate some artifacts on the prints (typical of the Prusa printer) while the Mosquito Magnum extruder was to solve some under-extrusion problems. I would like to know if these upgrades can help or if only one type of uprade is needed?
i recently (last couple of weeks) installed a Bondtech BMG on my CoreXY. After doing so...I started getting those angled artifacts as well. Very strange. Would love to hear if others have come across it as well and if they were able to remedy the issue.
And another question (and I have not looked) but does Bondtech detail the configuration changes in their firmware? I'm thinking that I don't want to be dependent on Bondtech to provide updated firmware each time Prusa makes an update.
@@ChrisRiley was not meant for you chris, I am sure you are fully aware, just more to confirm what you were saying that this upgrade is not really worth the money for what is gives I just finished printing a Quadruple disc enclosure with many straight walls at 100mm/s and have a very smooth finish on a stock mks3, no need to upgrade anything on my Prusa ( Apart from ruby nozzle )
you may need to tune extrusion ratio. When I see these type of issues -- where layers are not consistent. I had these z inconsistencies on a delta and lowered extrusion ratio from 1 to .88 (even though steps/mm was perfect) -- and got a print which looked like it had z banding to a perfect print that looks injections molded.
@@ChrisRiley Yes but Prusas print marvelously already. Let me watch the whole video first. Also I wish they (Prusa) could simplify the extruder when it come to assembly.
Awesome video! Glad to see someone finally took quality close up shots and highlighted all the issues like you'd normally see when holding the parts in hand. This almost never happens on other channels. I've been studying the extrusion inconsistencies on Prusa over the last several weeks and have found at least 2 separate issues at the extruder. Will be posting a model that emphasizes the issues with some potential fixes for one of them.
Great, look forward to seeing your model .
You're missing another couple of advantages of the Bondtech upgrade. I did it on my MK3s, and there's two things it brings to the party - the gearing lets me get a better experience printing at higher pressures, which I find helpful for polycarbonate. Also useful for PC printing is the better resistance to heat of the SLS printed parts - I warped the PINDA mount in the stock PETG extruder body printing PC. The PINDA was left at a 45 degree angle, which meant I was going to have to rebuild the extruder anyway.
For me, those benefits made this upgrade well worth the money - and I've had excellent results with PC since I did it. If you do the upgrade for the same reason, spend the extra $20 to also get the SLS printed sensor parts for best results.
still really expensive..
Not sure it's really any force difference as the gearing barely compensates for the much weaker motor. Could be a difference though. Something I've recently noticed is that if the extruder is not perfectly assembled there can be a huge difference in print quality.
Interesting, I haven't considered some of this, I will have to test it out.
I'm late to the party, but how much different are the gears? Bondtech says they're larger with more teeth. What nozzle diameter(s), layer thickness, speeds, etc. do you run with PC? Were you not able to accomplish the pressures needed by adjusting the OEM gear spring pressure or changing the spring itself?
I think we've reached new levels of absurdity between this $110 Bondtech extruder upgrade and Slice Engineering's $300 Copperhead hotend setup for squeezing out that last 0.05% print quality.
I personally think Slice is robbery. Patenting a hotend, and the copperhead is just a V6 with extra steps and a huge price tag.
I prefer seeing his installs on Log. Prusas are so well engineered already.
@@wangouthangout yea, the improvements I see in this upgrades is either nonexistent or tiny.
Thanks for your insight! 🙂
Not worth the 110$ (IMO) , besides you dont even get the gears with the upgrade. $110 for some plastic and a pancake stepper :( , kinda seems like 3D printing snakeoil.
excellent tutorial 👍
Glad you liked it!
I've been out of 3D printing for quite some time and recently got back into it. I purchased an Ultimaker S3 and just purchased an MK3S+. I owned quite a few MK3 machines previously. I converted them all to bondtech. I didn't see huge improvement either. This time around I won't be doing that. As your video indicated, it's not a life changing experience.
Also, I'm glad I resubbed to your channel when I picked printing back up. You do have some great content!
Thanks for coming back!
I wish this video was out a few months ago, I got a Prusa Mini and quickly started selling a bunch of stuff on Etsy so I needed more printers. Even though the MK3S was much more expensive it had a lower lead time and I figured I could benefit from the "better print quality" over the Mini. After 2 MK3S kits built, the Bondtech extruder upgrade, and 3 weekends later I couldn't get the MK3S to have the same print quality as my Mini. Prusa support's response was "MINI is indeed sensibly more precise than the MK3S+ when looking at the layer resolution", which was the first time I've heard someone say that. I assumed the opposite based on it's reputation and Prusa marketing. Try your tests on the Prusa Mini and if it's working as it should then you should see better results than your Bear MK3S. The Mini has its issues but when it comes to layer consistency, it wins.
I will have to put it up against my Mini again and look closer.
I ordered a Bondtech DDX v3 for Creality on Monday. Looks like an amazing setup, can’t wait to get it installed.
Nice, I need to try that one.
is it compatible with Ender 3 V2?
@@TheRealDoubleT I’m fairly certain it is. They have most models listed as compatible.
Just be aware, these are a little on the expensive side.
@@TheRealDoubleT I think it is, should be the same for V1.
I’ve had a DDX in a box for quite a while now. I need to put it on at some point.
Thanks for the Video Chris. It appears that the Bondtech generate a fine stringing. You can see it on the cube and the benchy, could be retraction calibration. Enjoy your upgrade
Thanks for the info!
Great video Chris. Definitely answered some questions while gearing up to do the Bear Build. Thanks for putting out great easy to understand content!
Glad to help! Thanks
Thank you for a great test, the close up shots are great with way better detail than many 'Experts'.
The fine eye for detail reminds me of how someone would try to convince themself and friends that they really did need the upgrade.
The key phrase to such a talk is usually - 'and here it is way better, see layer 2,671 is not correct?? - friend: 'Nope'.
Lol, thanks!
I personally think these issues come from the tmc2130 stepper motor drivers. You should pop in the skr with 2209 drivers and coaster! Thanks Chris great video!
Your assumptions are probably correct.
Great video Chris. Id love to see a comparison like this between stock and hemera extruder assembly.
Great idea!
Excellent photos, and a really interesting comparison, Chris
Thank you!
I also have 2 prusa mk3s with bondtech extruder and they improved my prints so much
That's great news!
I went with the Bondtech because I wanted to use a hot end that would work with the MMU but not require prints to be ran hotter like the stock Prusa does. This is due to the change Prusa made to the E3D V6 heat break to make it work better with the MMU. So instead I went a bit crazy and got the Mosquito Magnum hot end and the Bondtech extruder. If you are not using the MMU one of the best things you can do is simply to change the heat break to the original E3D V6 and that will get rid of the jamming issues many of us have ran into with the stock hot end. That and an upgrade to the Sunon fan. For the vast majority of people I would recommend not going with the Bondtech/Mosquito route unless you plan on using the MMU. Don't get me wrong I love mine...there are benefits that someone as nit picky as I can be would gladly pay the extra price for...like the ability to change the nozzle with 1 hand. Ironically I haven't yet gotten the MMU for either of my printers and at this point probably won't bother. That said I would love to see you put that Bondtech on the Bear frame and see how much better the print gets :) Also were you using linear advance on those prints? If not tuning that in might help with the extrusion inconsistencies.
Yes, LA was on all these prints, that is an interesting idea though, what if we put it on the bear? I will have to see how that works out.
Nicely done Chris. Just looking into upgrade paths for several MK3S machines since I have the BondTech for the Mini+. Cheers, JAYTEE
🙂👍
I got my prusa bondtech extruder for the better reliability. I had so many jams on my mk3 due to the ptfe tube in the stock extruder jamming and blocking the filament path. the bondtech extruder eliminates that issue.
Nice, good info!
this is better than bondtech's instructions. they don't even explain how the magnet polarity is supposed to be.
Thanks!
It's good to see a complete guide with printed parts that aren't 1000% looking perfect, it shows more realistic prints to a home upgrade with little strings coming off of it etc
Glad it was helpful!
Chris you scare me. This is the third time you do a video when i‘m thinking about buying a thing. I talked to my wife this morning exactly about the bondtech extruder!
Your wife listens to you when you talk about your 3d printer?
@@wangouthangout Yes. I‘m a lucky bastard.
👍🙂
@@ChrisRiley Bought it. For my Bear :D
It was interesting. Thank You Chris. Also have you played around with the new all metal "bi metal" hot ends. I would love to see one of those tested on Prusa Mk3S.
Hey John, thanks, I haven't yet, but I hope to get one soon.
@@ChrisRiley Thank you Chris. I will be watching for that video.
Wow i love your style of tutorial, very easy to follow. You should do one on the Prusa MK3s+ kit build.
Great suggestion! Thanks
Hi Chrs, If the initial gears cause the issue, they should include new ones....
and for that kind of money i would expect new gears in the kit.
Still a good compare video and onest advise.. spent it on making your frame etc more ridgit.
That's a good point, if the gears were worn or had any defects they would transfer the problem to the new setup
Good point!
As always an Impressive and honest review
Thank you
I just bought and assembled one of these printers last week. The only disappointment for me was the stock extruder design. The full size heavy extruder motor hanging way out from the support rails. The center of gravity offset from the drive belt location is just a pendulum ready to swing back and forth and wear out the bearings. The bondtech looks better.
The Bondtech is a bit slimmer.
Since my original comment below, I'm starting to understand the need for this upgrade. I've been printing flower pots for a local store, and she just placed a huge order, and I've been cranking up the printing speed. I've hit the limit to what a stock Prusa Mk3s can do, so I ordered this extruder in hopes of being able to increase my print speed. I hope to be able to give you a side-by-side comparison of this versus stock in a high-speed setup.
That would be great! Thanks for watching!
Chris, nice set of tests and got to see how are Prusa is calibrated
Thanks Dave, I figured this one would cause some "discussion" here is the comments, we will see.
Well, I guess I'm the average middle of the road 3d printer user, and you just saved me a lot of money and time. 😂
Thanks!
Glad I could help!
i think this is the best 3d printing channel no cap
Wow, Thanks!
Well, for 110 dollars you get ... different artifacts 😁Whether this upgrade is worth it ... I think both prints are great in any case, and it's our obsession with chasing last per cent to perfection (that notorious 90/10 rule).
It looks like frame rigidity plays more important role, especially as height increases.
Lol, Good point!
Love the tutorial I went one further did the Bondtech and the bear conversion with wide 10mm y belt and i love it.
That is awesome!
There is another who exposed the cause of those patterns.. the gears grabbing the filament .. when you tighten the grub screw.. you make the gear slightly less round.. that tiny amount causes the filament to push more and less as it rotates.. so it happens in both.. I have upgraded to the bontech on all my MK3S machines.. well worth it.. and also swapped out the v6 assy to the Phaetus Dragon Hotend, they have longer heat breaks, and work with everything as is.. same heater and thermistor.. just need a shorter PTFE tube, PS there are a bunch of options once you start looking at these..
Thanks for your insight!
I just put a Bondtech Mosquito combo on my China Clone MK3s printer, I use it in a heated enclosure, it also has the bear upgrade. I call it "Fire Hazard".
The bondtech upgrade made a sizable difference printing faster and in a heated environment. I had issues previously where the stock idler door warped and wouldn't extrude properly.
I'm seeing a lot less artifacts on the surface than my original Kit I got from prusa. But I think the market for these is mainly for people that buy clones. Its still a lot cheaper to source all the parts (including bear frame, bondtech and mosquito) than to buy a regular printer kit from prusa. The only downside is you still need to print your own parts, or source them from someone.
Its also more for people looking to tinker. I'm looking at putting clipper and input shaper/acceleration control on it. The weight reductions will help a lot going faster using this style of gantry.
Love your work, keep it up!
Cool, thanks for sharing!
Hi, Chris!
42:52 - the vertical artifacts are most probably the so called "motor ripple". If you're rotating the shaft by hand and feeling those separate clicks pretty noticeably then it's the reason. As far as I know about this stuff. You can check this by using the facts that there are 50 steps (for NEMA17) on 360 degree move and then use the formulas:
P_sh = Pi * D_sh // P_sh - shaft's perimeter, D_sh - shaft's diameter.
Ratio = St / P_sh // St - 50 steps for NEMA17. Here you'll get the ratio of steps/1mm of linear movement.
In my case I've got 0.995 steps/mm. So if I measure 10mm, there will be 9.95 steps. In other cases (with bigger or smaller shafts) you'll get not so close to 1.0 numbers and then *10 (mm) measuring logic will be more logical :)
Thus you'll be able to make sure that these vertical lines are because of not so smooth motors.
The smoothness can be measured by the force (the weight in kg) that is necessary to start the rotation of a motor's rotor. If you'll convert the rotation to the linear motion and apply a steelyard to measure the weight then you'll get your kg value. So you will be able to compare different motors.
Actually I wonder - which motors are installed on your Prusa? I mean the manufacturer and the model.
I'm going to replace mine by Hanpose but not sure if they do the best.
This is great info, these are motors from LDO. www.printedsolid.com/products/ldo-mk3-motor-kit
@@ChrisRiley I'll try to buy new motors locally and I'll manually test them on smoothness. I'll take old. Seems that it's possible to compare.
Some people had very nice results in reducing these artifacts by installing 0.9 degrees steppermotors on X and Y from Moons or StepperOnline.
@@marNL1970 My Tevo Flash doesn't have these artifacts on X-axis. So it's possible to make it without switching to 0.9 degree motors.
@@KiR_3d That might also be. I can't post links here and I don't want to be a smartass here, but at there is an interesting topic at the Prusa forums regarding the use of 0.9 degrees steppermotors. Just Google "stepper motor upgrades to eliminate vfa's".
Nice job. Might be the time to also do a Wham bam upgrade at the same time!
Thanks! Not a bad idea.
I think that 95% of the issues I have relates to my Bowden extruder setup. I switched to a Creality extruder, and it helped, but I still have random issues (clicking too yet the heat, etc... means it should never click). I am seriously thinking of doing this to get back to my Original Prusa I3's direct drive. I once tried Bowden on the I3 and went back. My X5S will lose speed, but as it is I have to print 260c, 10% fan, and 30mm/s for PETG and hope it doesn't hiccup.
I have had a lot of issues with less expensive bowden setups over the years.
Excellent job Chris much appreciated as always 👏
Thanks, Glad you enjoyed it.
Great vid. Thanks Chris! What is the black filament you're using? Love the way it looks.
That is colorfabb PETG from PrintedSolid.
I think most of the artifacts on the MK3 are caused by the non-linearity of the TMC2130 drivers. I'd love to see Prusa release an updated board that uses 2209s, or see their firmware ported over to another board with 2209 support added.
That would be pretty sweet.
Excellent video! great shots, perfect explenations, even better review. You got another Sub from it! Keep up the great content.
Thanks for the sub!
Hi Chris, came across a reference to one of your videos on a forum where apparently you had a loud BMG noise on retractions and resolved this by lowing the current of the E stepper driver, but I can't seem to find the video this happened in?
I don't remember if that made it to a video or not. I was actually snapping it back to hard and grinding the gear, lowering and slowing it down a bit 50mm/s helped.
@@ChrisRiley Thanks for taking the time to get back to me, you're a gentleman and a scholar
I agree, my results were close to yours, and my thinking at the time better extruder to help with MMU2 , which it did of course my Bondtech 2-3 years old ..
Thank you
Excellent and honest review. Thank you!
Thanks for watching!
Thanks!
Thanks!!!
@Chris Riley: Now waiting for test Bunny and Bear SX (BNBSX) extruder for Prusa MK3S :)
Sweet!
@@ChrisRiley Just ordered all what i need for BNBSX mod and already looking forward to all packages from Ali :)
Great videos as always! PLEASE do not use Allen wrenches to align you brand new BT gears! Makes me cringe as you can damage the gears with “tool steel”... Use a toothpick or something else that is soft and won’t potentially damage the sharp peaks on your gear. 👊🏼😉
Thanks for the tip!
Great video! Do you have a review for the railcore you built in mind? Interested in buying a kit
Thanks! No review as of yet, maybe in the future.
Not a lot of difference, but It would be interesting to see a potential advantage at higher flowrates with a bigger nozzle, say 0.8/1.2/1.5?
Good thought, I will have to test that.
You might want to make note that it is worth going to Bondtech if an owner swaps to a Mosquito Hot End. The Bondtech upgrade with Mosquito is worth every penny.
Thanks!
Great video, however i think that 130USD/EUR are not worth it for the minor upgrades in print quality. I've been going crazy with the inconsistency in extrusion which is clear on that XYZ cube as i have the exact same thing towards the middle of the prints which looks like layer lines are slightly going in and out but i guess it's just a direct drive thing which will not be fixed anytime soon.
That said, considering how expensive a Prusa MK3S+ is, i would expect perfection. Starting to think that Prusas are not really worth it if you expect impeccable prints, then again the Bambu X1C is too big for my space so it is what it is :)
I hear you, still the MK3 is one of the best for the price point. It is far from perfect.
I don't think it is about print quality. Seems like you want it for more pushing force. Also, indirect geared drive eliminates the problem of heat moving from the motor to filament gears and soften filament causing jams.
Could be, but I think most folks are looking to this to make their print quality better.
great learning video as always! but i thought when doing the initial noozle/pinda heights, sheets should be off?
It shouldn't matter, as long as the PINDA is about 1mm over the nozzle.
Can you do another video on the Bondtech extruder on Prusa Mini, and the new firmware 4.3.3, which is supposed to support such upgrades.
I will looking that, didn't know they were supporting it now.
I installed the Bondtech extruder on my Mini a few days ago, and now i can print flexible (A95) Filament. With the 4.3.3 Firmware the Software-Side is changed only with a few Clicks. (No need to open the electronic-Box and changing Wires.) I like the "inbuilt" Filament-Sensor, no dangeling around anymore...
@@MrDrumar Sweet, thanks for posting.
Thanks for making this video, you just saved me from wasting a load of money on the bondtech. I think the simple truth is, the dual gears have to much run out. Increasing the gear ratio wont solve that. Intresting about the bear frame.
That's very interesting. Thanks!
Very interesting comparison, but it would have been interesting to use something else that the traditional PLA. I'm interested into printing usable parts and PLA is not my favorite composite. PETG or PETG-CF tests would have been welcomed.
Thank you for your insight!
Chris, would the BondTech swapout affect the ability to use an MMU2S?
I just un-bondTeched/Mosquito to install my MMU2s since I couldn’t easily figure that out. So I’m also interested in Chris’s response.
It would, but Bondtech has a fix for it, it is laid out on the Bondtech Prusa page.
Thanks Chris, I’ll check it out
@@winslowjoy2629 do you get good prints with BT and MMU2?
@@quadrokatze4286 My MMU2S is still in the box waiting to be assembled/installed. My MK3S is down due to a failed bed thermistor and I have not had the time to install the new one. I am still running the stock extruder on my MK3S, but updated my Prusa Mini to the Bondtech Extruder and heat break.
What do you think about pitstop mod? Won't expect any improvement with pitstop neither, but easyer to maintain.
I don't know that one. I will check it out.
Thanks for making this. Please, please, please do one on using the MK3S with an MMU2S, Mosquito and Bondtech extruder upgrade! I've had this setup for months and am desperately trying to get it to reliably print Prusament PLA and Verbatim BVOH so I can print a model with dissolvable supports.
I feel like I have tried it all. I've made mod after mod to my MMU2S and just got a NozzleX but it still isn't printing. I feel I am very very close to having a successful print, but the PLA keeps grinding in the extruder during loads, causing them to fail.
Interesting, MMU2 with the Bondtech Mosquito setup. I will look into it.
@@ChrisRiley That would be amazing! Either way, thanks for replying :)
I did the Bondtech upgrade on a Prusa Mini, and it was life-changing. My biggest (only) gripe with the Mini is that it didn't come with a geared extruder, but the Mk3S does. I think this upgrade for the Mk3/S is a ripoff, just for the fact that you reuse your own parts, and as someone else said, you get a new stepper motor (and an additional gear). However, I get that people just like to upgrade their stuff, so to each his/her own.
Exactly, you do you! Thanks for your thoughts
@@ChrisRiley I forgot to say, I just subscribed to your channel! Great video.
Have you tried the Hemerra on the MK3S ... E3D are literally up the road from me and I notice they now have a prusa specific option on it ...
Not het, but that would be an interesting test.
great video, but... you didn't clean the heating block :P
So I've been told. 😉
Thanks for sharing!!!
My pleasure!! Thanks for watching
My Mk3S is beginning to show more artifacts after several thousand hours of printing. I am wondering if the linear bearings are wearing out. I am seeing a lot more "candy striping" and what appears to be ringing. I've done belt tightening and calibration. Also the y motor is making a lot of racket when printing. Any thoughts? I have a bondtech kit that is still in the box (with a mosquito.) I don't want to install untill I understand the real issue.
Hey Bill, I would say linear bearings, I have a video coming out on that.
Chris so you say it would be even better doing a bear and bondtech upgrade to reach olymp?
Why not, right!? ;)
Man... The disassembly of the i3 MK3S Toolhead sure gave me Vietnam Meme like Flashbacks of servicing mine after 3D Printing all the ABS parts for my Voron 2.4 on it... The i3 did _not_ like doing that... Had to basically reprint the entire toolhead ( also upgrading it to the MK3S+ in the process... ) and it was a royal fuckin' pain in the ass. Also having had a filament blob on the Voron Toolhead with it coming apart in like 15 sec for servicing that ( thank the makers for my DIY Silicone Sock protecting the Mosquito Hotend ) didn't really help with my agony against the i3 😑
I hear ya, I hate tearing into these to fix stuff.
My MK3S+ suffers pretty badly from the 45 degree moire effect on prints. It's driving me nuts that I'm getting way better surface quality from my Ender3 V2 compared to the Prusa. I understand that this is mostly due to the difference between Bowden and direct drive, but I'm really hoping to find a way to mitigate the effect on my Prusa. Unfortunately, it looks like this upgrade has little impact in that regard. I've seen speculation that it could be due to the steppers used. Has anyone ever tried a MK3(S/+) with TMC2209's to see if that improves things?
I haven't tried 2209's with the Prusa, but I would guess it probably doesn't help much. I am currently having this issue on a different printer and I am going to test a bunch of different stepper motors to see if there is a difference.
How about an install for the Bondtech LGX on the MK3S....
I was going to get one, but they were sold out, I will see what I can do.
How about the extruder motor temperature? Is the 3:1 gear ratio motor runs cooler than stock?
Good point, I would guess it is much cooler. I will have to check .
I have a bondtech mosquito upgrade and it‘s great.
That's great!
And at the end of the day, you go from a perfectly accurate 3d print to a marginally better 3d print, still with all its layer lines and whatnot.
🙂
There is still MUCH room for improvement. If not, why would Prusa ever create upgrade kits or develop their printers any further? You're not going to find any improvements without testing and trail and error. What did you think about the MK3s+ upgrade? LMAO pretty damn marginal.
@@Adam-my8qx don't get me wrong. I have a Tevo Tornado that the only thing it still has from Tevo is the extrusions. Tinkering with printers is fun in and of itself, and hardly as superfluous as printing action figures. I do have the Mk3s, but that was my first Prusa, so I cannot compare. But this upgrade produces what are at most very marginal improvements, for a really steep price, for which you'll need to recycle parts from your original Prusa (so you don't end up with an extra extruder that you can mount on a cheap secondary printer). As a guy who never saw an upgrade he didn't immediately want, I have a rule: if it doesn't really solve a functional issue (like letting me print flexibles at a reasonable speed or letting me print with a really large nozzle) and doesn't magically turn my fdm prints into something that looks like it came out of a resin printer, it doesn't get bought. Particularly when a resin printer costs what it costs nowadays.
@@carlosperromat3013 I will be honest with you, I installed a bondtech kit on my Mk3s last month and was disappointed. Minimal to no change in print quality. There is more to this upgrade than just print quality that you are overlooking though. I can now more comfortably print in an enclosure which I keep my Prusa in. The carriage is light, and allows for easier maintenance which is something the Prusa needs often @ every 200 working hours or so. It is easier to dissemble for clogs etc and is just a more premium component. With the stock cooling fan I noticed that cooling is also much more efficient for the hotend. My stock prusa ASA fan shroud warped on me, and many others have had their PINDA holder warp. More premium, easier maintenance, better fit and finish. It is not for everyone and if I could go back I probably wouldn't buy it again, but I also don't regret my purchase.
@@Adam-my8qx those are very good reasons indeed. Removing a diagonal pattern you see if you look at it in a certain way, maybe not so much. By the way, I did find that a titanium heatbreak and the bear upgrade (x axis only) design fixed the occasional clogs. If anything, replacing the Noctua fan with the Sunlu probably helped too and you can barely tell the noise difference.
Where can I find the file of the cutting jig for ptfe tube (6,3)?
Check here. github.com/BondtechAB/Bondtech_Prusa_i3/tree/master/CAD-Files
Thank you 🙏
on their instruction they recommend electrical tape around e3d heatsink to make it more snug. it makes t easier for nozzle change.
Thanks for sharing! 👍
@@ChrisRiley does the motor make a high pitch noise when its bridging or printing fast? mine makes that noise i wanted to know if it is normal.
@@SinaShahsana Mine doesn't, not sure what would cause that.
@@ChrisRiley well I bought a correct spec motor from filamentone , its a 0.9 degree LDO motor, it might be defective. thank you for your response.
great video as usual chris but i dont think for the diffrances its worth the upgrade you could have probably got the same results if u had set the esteps and the current on the stock extruder and made some firmware tweeks thats just my opinion
Fair enough! Thanks for watching
Hi All, I have the Prusa MK3/s and currently installing the bond tech upgrade.
I have put everything together inside the BondTech but I'm having trouble mounting it back on the rails? The screws don't line up on my x carriage and I do not have the same piece part as seen on this video at 31:54
Can anyone help? Is this part required? Do I have to purchase separately?
Hey! You will need to check out the Prusa printed parts. There are a few different configs. The Bondtech only fits one. If you browse the STL's that should give you an idea of which version you need.
@@ChrisRiley Yes, I had to purchase the x carriage piece separately which I didn't know because I just ordered the Extruder upgrade...school boy error. 😅I have just received the correct piece in the post and will get round to fitting it today or tomorrow. (I hope) Appreciate the reply, keep up the vids 👊💪
@@ChrisRiley Hope you’re doing well bro.
Ok, So I’ve managed to finally install the Bondtech upgrade successfully. At first the filliment wasn’t feeding through fast enough so I played with the tension and it started coming out but not as fast/consistent as the original Prusa MK3s stock extruder…🤔
I have been trying so hard to just get a decent print but Ive failed every time and it’s very frustrating.
I can’t seem to fix the issues with layer lines?
The prints aren’t coming out very well, layers not sticking on top of each other properly, prints look a little (see through) I have some pictures I would like to share with you in hope you can advise me how to rectify the issue… can I email you the pictures or send via another platform if possible?
Thanks Chris
@@MrInterventionkid Sounds like under extrusion for sure. Yes, you can send me pictures at brotherchris81@gmail.com
I turned off the audio at the comparison point because I didn't want to be swayed by the narrative. What I saw with my own eyes however in the video was not enough of a difference to warrant the $110 price tag. As a matter fact I didn't see enough of a difference to even make it worth doing a swap.
I am with you on that.
as of today i wanted to upgrade my prusa mk3s, what do you suggest me to do between bear upgrade Caribou Kit or Bondtech Mosquito Magnum (or normal) ? or both two systems ? i have already installed the Bondtech kit with E3D V6.
I guess it depends on what you want to do. Caribou would give you more z, Mosquito is nice, but really only for printing at higher temp ranges, 400c.
@@ChrisRiley The Caribou frame upgarde also exists with height 220, I wanted to take it to eliminate some artifacts on the prints (typical of the Prusa printer) while the Mosquito Magnum extruder was to solve some under-extrusion problems. I would like to know if these upgrades can help or if only one type of uprade is needed?
@@Gasrovescio The frame upgrade would help a bit, I don't Mosquito will change much.
@@ChrisRiley so what could i do to improve the print quality since i've tried everything and the printer is perfectly calibrated?
A used stock extruder vs a brand new bondtech?
Could that be a factor?
I don't think it would much, but not a bad thought.
Do you prefer Hemera or BMG+V6?
Personally, I link the Hemera better, but they both do a great job.
I have a Bear mk3s but with the Bear extruder upgrade.
Cool! Thanks for watching
Test the Bondtech LGX!
It's on the way!
So does this mean it is more software related.
It's actually the 2130 driver that causes most of the problem. The 2209 is a lot better.
Does it reduces an extruder motor heat effect on filament?
Yes, the Bondtech is going to run a lot cooler.
nice comparison
Thank you
i recently (last couple of weeks) installed a Bondtech BMG on my CoreXY. After doing so...I started getting those angled artifacts as well. Very strange. Would love to hear if others have come across it as well and if they were able to remedy the issue.
Me too! Thanks for sharing.
thkyou very good video ;)
Glad you liked it!
Thanks
Welcome
And another question (and I have not looked) but does Bondtech detail the configuration changes in their firmware? I'm thinking that I don't want to be dependent on Bondtech to provide updated firmware each time Prusa makes an update.
I think all of their stuff is on their github with the updates.
does this upgrade apply if you have a MMU2 unit?
I'm not sure, they might have a kit for it.
so they sell a motor with bunch of 3d printed parts for 100$ ?
nice.
Yep, that's how it goes.
that hotend hits my anxiety with how dirty it is
Lol, I'll work on it.
IMO the difference is not worth $110.00. Honestly I won't even notice they were printed with 2 different extruders.
Totally agree.
Invest the money in a sla printer if you need that level of detail :)
Thanks for the tip
@@ChrisRiley was not meant for you chris, I am sure you are fully aware, just more to confirm what you were saying that this upgrade is not really worth the money for what is gives
I just finished printing a Quadruple disc enclosure with many straight walls at 100mm/s and have a very smooth finish on a stock mks3, no need to upgrade anything on my Prusa ( Apart from ruby nozzle )
@@patrickmaartense7772 I know man, it's all good. Thanks for watching :)
you will get less infact no filament jams with pla or tpu with the bondtech.
Thanks for the tip!
Not convinced. You could have corrected the inconsistency when you tightened the belt tensions.
Inconsistency could be introduced everywhere.
you may need to tune extrusion ratio. When I see these type of issues -- where layers are not consistent. I had these z inconsistencies on a delta and lowered extrusion ratio from 1 to .88 (even though steps/mm was perfect) -- and got a print which looked like it had z banding to a perfect print that looks injections molded.
You can probably go through all the tuning steps, but I am not sure it would make a lot of difference with these results.
So conclusion.. get a bear frame and a geared extruder ...motor..
Agreed!
The most disappointing thing on this video is that you didn't clean the heater block when you disassembled it... 🤣
Ha! What can I say?
unless you get perfect diameter filament you will never have perfect layers
Very true.
заплатил 110 получил тоже самое. выдурили просто деньги.
Я полностью понимаю. Очень дорогой.
Umm...
Pretty good, huh?
@@ChrisRiley Yes but Prusas print marvelously already. Let me watch the whole video first. Also I wish they (Prusa) could simplify the extruder when it come to assembly.