Considering the quality of the videos you guys put out, I am baffled by how little subscribers you have! I have asbolutely been binging your videos. Keep it going lads!
Calling out the mindset of the wheel owner is crucial and often overlooked, so I think you're on the money there. "If you're the kind of rider who goes to your bike shop when you notice a creak or crack, it's usually too late. Buy a quality branded hub". Spot on. Not shaming, just realistic. Oh... I'd also say that hookless isn't fit for purpose for most humans and needs to be ditched.
The mechanical side of hookless is fascinating to me. Because hookless is and has been standard on Car, truck and motorbike wheels for generations. I think the fundamental physics of Bike Wheels just don't align to hookless rims. The pressures are too high, the wheel widths are too small and the contact surface area is too low. One day maybe someone will figure out some magic sauce to make it work, but for my money, I'm not touching hookless for a LONG LONG time.
@@pinkyfull Really it's just the weight and install issues that kill hookless for bicycles. You need proper equipment to break the bead on a car wheel. High performance car tires (i.e. road tire equivalents) are incredibly tight and require a lot of finger f*ing with your tire machine's hydraulic arm to get past the retention flange. A lot of that is that they have high tensile steel cables running around the bead area. On top of that the casing is quite beefy just past the bead. They're also dimensionally stable in a way that bike tires aren't because they're radials with steel belts running all the way around the tire. It's a totally different ball park. We could make it work if we went to steel wire beads, 2500+ gram alloy wheelsets, $150 tires and $20 bucks per tire to have them installed at the garage. Good luck with flats and Strava KOMs, lol.
@@pinkyfull the problem with hookless is the the tires for bikes are build completely different to for example car tires. Far tires have radial metal stings waved I to the tire which helps to keep the form of the tire. Bicycle tires don't have this as it is much too heavy and this causes a lot of dangers for bicycle wheels/tires
I shopped around for ages before settling on Farsports Feder 45mm, 21 internal hooked, DT 240 hubs, sapin cx-ray with brass nipples. 1370 grams for less than 1,500 AUD. Been good wheels, no issues. Proof you don't need to spend Zipp or Enve money to get decent wheels.
Many thanks for taking the time and effort to put this all together, Paul. As you say, FFWD on a set of 350’s (or maybe some 240’s) is pretty much all you’ll ever need.
I remember discovering your channel when your commented under Hambini’s wheel guide that your were also working on yours, and I’m glad it came out! Amongst all the great vids about wheels I watched (Ali Clarkson, Bini, Peak Torque and some french guys) this one definitely sets a benchmark imo. Thank you for all the practical and valuable informations you give away through this channel.
Paul raised the question of Shimano hubs not featuring much in factory built wheelsets, apart from Shimano branded wheels. The answer is that they tend to be heavier than many other brands, with steel axles, steel freehubs and loose ball bearings. Words such as 'durable', 'reliable', 'strong' are not attractive these days. Also, their 105 and Ultegra range are not available with lower spoke counts. My 32 spoke 105 rear hub has seen me through the winter months for the last few years. My experience with DT Revolution spokes was not a happy one. Light and strong but very difficult to get high tension without creating serious spoke wind-up. Great care needed in the build up. Pillar do not have a UK distributor, though the Cycle Clinic have started to stock some triple butted, round spokes. However, I know of no UK source for Pillar bladed spokes, common in some imported wheelsets from China.
having went from shallow alloy wheels that were 21mm to a set that was 31mm then to a 55mm set of carbons almost a year ago. I have now inherited the disease where I run out of road before ever reaching my top speed. There are no sections of road on my commute that are clear or long enough for me to really open up the taps and see how fast I can really go compared to the shallow rims. 21mm will get me from 0-28mph in 20-30 seconds but the moment I let off the pedals it starts to lose momentum really quickly. Its impossible to do the same with the 55mms and stomping on the pedals from a complete stop and expecting to go like a rocket ship has only resulted in giving me knee pain so I can only accelerate from a stop more like a steam train. Its hard for me to decide which set to put on. On one hand Im addicted to the punchy acceleration of the shallow set but the 55 will cruise effortlessly above 30km/h. I may put the 31mm set back on and save the 55s for club, weekend rides and silly things like the Dynamo. Excellent video! straightforward and right to the point!
What a great video for someone like myself who puts a ton of hard miles on his equipment. I do all of the work on my bike, but have only built a few wheels, so I don't have enough experience to make the right calls on things like which spokes to use, spoke tension, etc. Much appreciated for sharing knowledge acquired from years of experience.
I have two sets of handbuilt DCR 24 25 alloy disc brake wheels. 28 Sapim Cx Ray spokes front and rear, built on DCR / Bitex centrelock hubs. Internal hooked rim width 20 mm. First pair are 6 years old and still going strong with only a clean and re grease of the free hub pawls. Very happy with them and perform well without breaking the bank.
Agree about Bitex RAF12/RAR12 road hubs for rim brakes. Inexpensive, light and well made. Spares readily available from DCR , a major distributor. Bitex disc brake hubs also excellent. Spa Cycles a good source for hubs, rims and spokes. Ryan Downes also for spokes. Cycle Clinic also do a good range of wheel components - Malcolm Borg has good info on wheel components. If you're having a go at wheelbuilding it's important to calculate the ERD (effective rim diameter) of the rim so know what spoke length to order. In my experience a slightly long spoke is less problematic than a spoke that's too short. Never use alloy nipples.
I managed to get BITEX RSPF for a rim brake wheel rebuild. Little I got surprised after I put it on scale to check versus worn Ulegra WH-6700-F hub. Bitex was 96 grams versus 159 grams of Ultegra hub.
Glad to to see hookless starting to away. Saw the concept as dangerous. The heavy cheap stock wheels had the spokes too tight and too loose spoke situation on it with the cheap novatech hubs build going out. Limited choices for my CX/ general use/ gravel bike with rear tire clearance at 40 and fork is 15mmTA which wheels of different internal width to make work the best. So road wheels from local company using easy to find parts not enough spokes or dirt wheels to wide. Lucked out on spinergy on sale from local store new for each wheel. Not my first choice due to priority truing tools needed, it what I could afford and regional company just in case. Next set will be set a easier to service and find parts for.
Some new carbon rims are at the top of my list at the moment and vids like this are a lifesaver. There's so much to choose from and getting some good, honest advice is a godsend.
Cracking deep dive video, thanks! 👍🏻 Gotta agree with the DT Swiss hubs but the best thing about them, for me, servicing is a breeze and the ratchet system is a maintenance dream. Pop off the driver body with cassette attached, clean the 5 or so parts, bit of grease, pop it back on. 5 minute job. No pawls and springs, especially for ebikes, is a game changer.
I've been running Token Konax Pro 52 MM wheels with Pillar bladed straight pull spokes for a year now. So far so good with Continental GP 5000 TR tires. Have been a solid set for me.
Extraordinarily happy with my FFWD Ryot 44's. Great customer experience, but beyond that they feel fast and snappy and so well-built that I'm very confident at high speeds. Not the lightest or fastest (like me), but the best wheels I've ever had for the price (just shy of 2k USD).
Fantastic video - love you work and. As you are very much in favor of DT Swiss hub, why don't you mention the complete DTSwiss wheels (ERC1400 DICUT) as great option at the 1.500 mark?
Fantastic review and walking through all the possibilities and issues with different wheels. It really helped me with my next road wheel set by DT Swiss!
I was really looking at the ENVE and the DT Swiss wheels. Your info on Hookless wheels cliched it for me. DT Swiss has great hubs and the I definitely want the hooked rims after your review. I have a mix of smooth as silk roads and some real sections with expansion joints cobbles etc. The DT Swiss ERC 1100 DICUT seems to be the best fit.
Great masterclass Paul , thanks for putting so much preparation and time into this. Knew the basics but have learnt so much more from you. My personal go to is hand built by a time served master craftsman wheel builder. As well as allowing customisation to suit purpose and rider type it also gives longevity and complete trust in the wheels over their lifetime. 👍😁
Spoke failure is often due to poor technique but a key issue is that of spoke length. If, for example, you use an online spoke calculator, you might find that the required spoke length is 285.2mm. You have a choice; do you opt for 286, 285 or 284 ( spokes are frequently available in 2mm increments eg 284, 286, 288 etc. This issue is addressed in a 6 minute video on RUclips by American wheelbuilder Bill Mould. Yhe video title is 'Optimal Spoke Length'. He concludes that a longer option is more reliable than a shorter one. Worth a look.
Yes. Totally agree. Threads hanging out below the nipple create an elongation issue with the min. diameter in the threads of the spoke. And if the spoke is not long enough, it creates a "collapsing" type stress just under the head of the nipple. This time, because of the max diameter of the threads in the nipple. It is much better to have full contact with a smidge left over if necessary. With today's dbl. walled rims, this is easy to do.
Awesome video, thank you so much for sharing. Looks like the message on FFWD Ryots has not got to many people. Managed to pick up a new, display stock Ryot 33 with 240 hubs wheelset for the equivalent Euro 750. Dream build coming up.
I brought hope pro3 mono dt swiss 1.1 in 2004, i sold them 2023. Great wheelset , thousands of thousands of miles every winter inbetween . One spoke and bearings when needed
Good informative discussion. Thank you. I bought some Scribe wheels and I bought the tools, bearings, got spokes - I think those were included and with everything including the noise quieting grease they were still not expensive. Unlike yours, mine came well made and seriously stiff. I've ridden them hard for a couple of years now and haven't needed to use the parts I bought but the bearings are due. In fact, that's what I'll be doing later today.
I’m running a set of scribes 3 years now . They’ve been pretty much trouble free so far . I’ve quietened the hub with grease too . Definitely worth doing. Scribe are servicing their own wheels in house now too! I’d like @Mapdec to do a review of the carbon wheels . It would be interesting to hear his opinion
That’s good to hear. Carbon rims are pretty much standard items arrows many brands now. It’s the build quality and choice of components that really makes them good or not.
Cero AR24 Rim brake set. If you can do your own bearings etc thay are fine.. I'm 100kg and never broke one in a very hilly area. I have broken CX Rays.. 200 quid 1500g.
Tredz had a crazy deal on Reynolds AR 41 rim brakes - so I bought them as I saw that Jake was running a pair. I was attracted to the lifetime warranty and that Reynolds are now backed by a big brand like Hayes.
Always on the lookout for rim brake options (I'm currently on Ksyriums, which I like). I'd probably stick to alloy, but Reynolds are not a brand I knew anything about, so interesting to look anyway. Almost had a heart-attack when I saw their brake pads are £60. What's that about!?
Tks. Now.. i know what to look for when looking for wheels...to suit my kind of ride and matching rim to desired tyre size and safety considerations. Just need facts and no validation as i am not using chris king hubs! Keep it (vids) coming!!
Great video, very informative. As for myself I'm am old school wheel builder I built my first wheel way back in 1978 when I was 18, since then I have built well over 10K wheels mostly built on a $ 2.00 flea market find wheel truing stand I built wheels for 2 San Francisco bay area distributors, D.I.N. industries and Kobe Co. both of which are now long gone. Many of my high end wheels were built with custom cut spokes by Phil Wood, I would roll into Phil Wood and see Bernie and he would cut my spokes for me. I don't use tension meters or spoke prep, when tension meters 1st arrived to the market place a co worker at D.I.N. industries looked at one, grabbed it and tossed it into a garbage can and said, Baron doesn't need this, I guess it wasn't needed I picked one up looked at it and that was it I never touched a tension meter ever again, if I do remember correctly it was Wheel Smith who produced the 1st spoke tension meter. Timing for myself when building a single quality built wheel could take 3 to 4 hours total, I will true then destress the spokes at times pushing the wheel out of trueness, then do these procedures again then bring it back into trueness, then I'll drop a tiny drop of oil into the top section of the nipple spin the wheels for a bit then hang them up to let them rest over night, next day I will repeat the same procedures once again, finishing touch is to mount the tire and tube, over pressurize the the tire, drop a tiny drop of oil again then spin the wheel so the oil can find it way into the threads then I'll apply the final turning of the nipples, when all said and done then they are ready for the road. At times some of my customers will ask, are you turning the nipple because I don't see any movement I'll reply, yes but at times very little is needed, it's all about touch, sight and sound. one customer has logged well over 40K miles on his touring bike wheel set, I said hey Ike how's about servicing your wheel set, he said what for, why mess up such a good thing, they will have 40K miles on them and are doing just fine, I replied, not! He then showed my his bike computer and said the numbers don't lie. BTW: When building the rear wheel in the old days I would want to bring the rear gears as close to the right side chain stay, this is done by respacing the axle, via respacing the axle shifting the spacing over to the other side, when doing so the wheel will be more symmetrical, thus building a stronger wheel and on some steel frames I'd even dent the inside of the right chain stay, as like I had to do with my lugged steel track bike that was converted into a road bike and it was tight. In the mid 80's I built a wheel set for a privateer Specialized sponsor rider, Brad Decker, several weeks later he was rear ended by a car that the CHP estimated that the car rear ended him was traveling at roughly 80 MPH, anyway after his accident he came into the shop being all torn up, he told me of these happenings and I replied well there goes your wheel set then he laughed and went to his car and pulled his wrecked bike out, the frame was totalled, the front end was totally callapsed, the accident was so violent the front end locked into the pavement, when I saw this for sure I was thinking the front wheel must have disintegrated, then he pulled out the wheel set, I couldn't believe my eyes the wheels looked to be 100% intact, I checked the front wheel and it was like the day it was built, it was as straight and tight as can be the rear wheel only had a small blip, he said check them over true up the rear wheel, I'll have a race in about 3 weeks time and I want to use these wheels, I said nope, I'm not touching these wheels, if you really want me to work on them then you'll need to sign a waiver, so he did. He then got his new Specialize bike less of course the wheels of which I don't think Specialized wasn't in favor of, end game he did the race then came into my shop after the race with a friend and said, this is the man, his wheels are TITS! Then said he did his best finish on a badly crashed sets of wheels, he finished 3rd. Today I don't do much wheel building, my thumb joint is a bit messed up from all the wheel building. For me when building a wheel, it's all about, touch, sight and sound as like one of my customers would say, you're fine tuning my wheel as like some one that is fine tuning a violin. Just my long 2 cents.
I think anyone that throws away a scientific instrument thinking that their experience is superior is being extremely arrogant. They might well have built perfectly tensioned wheels, but how would they know with a scientific verification? Science.
Great to hear that custom road bikes are making a comeback! I own an older ti custom frame, and have rode that bike thousands and thousands of miles. May be looking for something similar but with a few added twists. Thanks for sharing all of this!!
Brilliant video, I've already passed on the link on a Reddit forum thread where someone is asking about which carbon wheel to upgrade to. I sure hope they'll watch for your superb guidance.
31:08 Reserve is Santa Cruz Bicycles wheel brand. But never tried them. But Their ads show massive abuse. Danny Macaskill rode on the rims down stairs I think. But they seem nice. but I've always went for ALu.
Exactly the video I needed! I want to build a set of wheels and there was so much information here I couldn't find anywhere else - I am still processing. Thanks!
That is the video I needed! I am planning to order wheels for my new endurance bike and this helped to bring to clarity to the subject. I am in Poland, but I wish I could order the wheels from you, guys..
Excellent video! I do have a set of princeton carbonworks Peak 4550 and their my best wheelset ... worth the money and customer service is fantastic. They have Tune hubs which are very light easy to service but not too sure about long term durability yet
for myself and breaking many brands, i stick with Bontrager and Roval across various disciplines. my Roval cx38's have been bombproof gravel racing and cyclocross.
I love your videos and for the most part this is a great one. I think the title is completely inaccurate though as the budget in "wheels for every budget" starts at £900 which is just unrealistic for most people. Why does this not start at a much lower figure? £300 constitutes a wheel upgrade from most stock bike offerings and would be applicable to a much wider audience. Keep up the good work though! 👍
I’ve had a great experience with BTLOS on two wheelsets. I built one from custom rims and the other was built by them. My initial order came with a damaged box and there ended up being some cosmetic damage to one of the rims. BTLOS offered to ship a new wheel or take an $80 discount and keep the scuffed rim. I was so satisfied with the customer service that I ordered the rims to build my own wheelset for my gravel bike fairly quick after that. They did a custom layup that added about 40 grams of carbon to increase the weight capacity from 130kg to 160kg, so that I had plenty of extra room for camping gear.
Just built a new mtb front wheel with a DT Swiss 350 classic front hub, Mavic rim and DT Rev spokes. Wheel went together really easily and wasnt far out of true or round before I put it in the jig. Never pinged or twanged on its first ride . DT Swiss 350's are my favourite hubs now , although built some summer gravel wheels with Superstar hubs, which are Novatec rebadged. DT Revs again and DT Swiss rims . Happy with those over the facory Fulcrum wheelset that came with my Planet X Tempest, which are now made up as winter wheels.
Great video as usual. Just would like a bit more guidance at the budget end, particularly aluminium rims. Recently bought a pair of £300 Hunt aluminium "all year" wheels. Will be looking at them with new eyes now! At 1500g they weren't much heavier than the cheaper end of the carbon ones. Now I know the difference might be hubs and spokes.
Fair point. Much of the detail is the same. The only difference to consider is depth really, because it can add a lot of weight to an alu rim. There are not many hookless alu rims about any more to worry about.
Shoutout to scrub wheels. Hand made in the uk with a range of budget and name brand components. Can heartily recommend from my own experience with his work.
ICAN FL50 with Novatech hubs, and Sapim spokes. I’ve ridden these for 3000+ miles as they are as straight as the day I got them. Highly recommend, high value wheels.
Unsure whether you’ll find this comment, but I want to thank you, and let you know that I’ve just set up and begun riding a set of FFWD F4R wheels with Pirelli P Zero Race tires. Yes, it’s the rim brake option, and no, I’m running TPU tubes instead of going tubeless, *but* the difference is still enormous compared to my previous wheels (Mavic Kyserium Anniversary Editions from the mid 2000s (!) and Conti5000s)! Thank you so much!
Great video 🙏 The only part of this subject I thought might be missing (and apologies if I DID miss it), especially for someone new to cycling, is the choice between clinchers, tubeless clinchers and tubulars. You did mention hookless a few times and to me this is subset of a more fundamental up-front decision for someone who is new to upgrading their wheels!
I didn’t mention so much. It’s rare to find a hooked clincher these days that is not tubeless compatible, and tubular is dying off faster than rim brakes
@@Mapdec totally agree on rim brake wheels (or anything 'rim brake' for that matter, including frames, regrettably!) but disc brake tubular wheels (and tyres) seem to be continuing, maybe because a tubular carbon disc rim is manufactured in a similar way to a clincher carbon disc rim. Agree that demand for these is diminishing too, but some people might like to consider them as options....
I'm currently comparing two options: Corima Essentia 40 and DT Swiss GRC1400. The Corimas are ahead in pretty much all aspects except crash replacement. Corima: need to register within 10 days of purchase. For 3 years, a decreasing discount of 50>30>10% for a new wheel of the same model. DT Swiss: no registration necessary, for 10 years, 249€ flat fee to have the rim repaired or replaced. I really don't know if I should give the crash replacement so much weight to offset everything else. My bike is going to be insured anyways.
I generally have my MTB wheels built with DT Comps/brass nipples but I went DT Alpjne IIIs for my DJ bike and I'd go the same for eMTB wheels. Edit: I also make sure my wheel builder supplies a few spare spokes of each length I might need in case I need them fixed in a hurry (if I'm on holiday for example). For the MTB equivalents to your three categories at the end (only roughly the same price?) I'd go: Extravagance: Chris King/Enve (£4,000?) Benchmark: I9 Hydra/SC Reserve 30|HD (£2,000?) Compromise: Hope Pro 5/DT EX 511 (£700?)
I used hunt i did have problems at times. My main bike as got a rear hub motor it wasn't made right after year spokes went . I now gone to local wheelbuilder who got stronger rims h son and on rear sapin strong spokes plus washers .
Freehubs tend to go first on my wheels, I like Fulcrum's Raciing 900 as cheap, well sealed, easy to regrease freehub and change bearings. Use old NOS Shimano 7spd 26" mtb wheels on my commute bike, bombproof.
Really well done. Loved the structure and detail of this video, especially the simple checks on wheel quality. Thank you! FYI, I just got the Hunt Alloy SL wheels and I'm trying to decide if I should keep them. This will help a lot!
Very good summary Paul . I was missing one topic that is spoke count. Maybe only since I’m in a bit of a trouble. I’m a big fan of DT350. A while ago i’ve purchased a set of hub 2nd hand, never built. Price was very good and I needed the freehubs for a conversion. Now i have a set of road 350’s on the shelf and it’s tempting to build a road training wheel in my gravel bike. I big issue which I’ve realized only after receiving the hubs. 24 spokes front and rear as well. (Disc) I know it would be better to have 28 in the back, but this is what i have now. What spoke and rim (alu) combo should i consider to build a reliable wheel? I’m 85 kg, no extreme sprints or ftp, lots of bad roads. Will be going for 30 or 32mm road tyres… Any good budget ideas to get use of these otherwise very good hubs?
Is this Rim (a1022) new? Was off my radar. Was planning to go for hooked otherwise looks very cool. Remind s me to the open pro which looks also cool. Sapim lasers. Never went yet for those. Was always a littbe bit worried about twisting. But i’ve built only a couple of wheels yet Thanks for the advice and the quick turnaround.
Very informative and constructively biased as ever from Mr Mapdec. It’s a shame that not more new bikes with more premium frames, wheel sets etc don’t get the choice of 105. My Domane SLR 7 Gen4 has a nice set of wheels and was deeply discounted, 105 would have served just fine. BTW You can pair the 105 11-36 cassette with the new Ultegra Di2 groupset and It works fine. Just be careful with the b screw adjustment. My main issue with the Di2 set up is the lack of a rear mech clutch - noisy chain slap for us less meticulous gear changers. Rear mech charging isn’t so bad though, I have no electric in my garage and a very understanding wife. Battery life is much better than SRAM Totally agree - SRAM Rival AXS beats the 105 and Ultegra Di2 hands down. Tried it on the new Frankenstein Canyon Endurace and it was great. I’d go fir that and wish I had in the otherwise great Domane Gen4.
Farsports Revo rims on DT Swiss 240 EXP hubs, Sapim CX-Rays: $1,299 + shipping. Fantastic build quality, top quality non-proprietary hubs and spokes and some of the best hooked rims you can buy for a very good price. Also, great out of the box build quality.
I don't enjoy the hassle of 20 miles of heavy traffic and terrible roads to get anywhere from where I live so I just stick with Campy rims for my race bike and the originals on my other bikes. The L.District is a good Carboniferous era for yer carbons, brass nips for the rain, makes sense. Don't do distance cycling anymore, the London traffic has won
Great detail in this video - nice one. Quick question unless I missed the answer - is it generally a thumbs up to using nipple washers across the board or specific scenarios where you might opt not to use them? Thinking more from a MTB perspective
They just need to be used as appropriate. There are very few cases where a MTB would need them. You don’t really have high spoke tensions, or very light wheels that need force distribution. You might see them if the rim is rough finished and prevents a nipple turning
Great video. I would like your opinion on winter wheels. Also, loads of people are loading bags onto their bikes. Any advice on wheels for light weight touring? British roads are atrocious, and will not improve in my lifetime. Any advice on real world pot hole resistant wheel, and tyre choice? What about some figures on rider weight. There are lots of big people out there on race bikes - fat lad at the back! Any advice for big guys? Lastly: are you going on holiday? Will the tiny local bike shop have wheel spares if you damage an exotic wheel on tour?
For this, you can’t go wrong with DT Swiss alloy wheels. Spares available world wide and rated to 130kg. If you want Carbon rims it’s not so easy as DT put their nipples internally and use alu. I would probably be inclined to build something.
Really enjoyed that video. I won't be looking to upgrade my wheels for a while, but from watching this I know what I want, what to look for and that I need to put some more money aside 😂 Also, learnt that I am inflating my Giant wheels too close to the 'max'. All round great video.
How about a set of DT-Swiss ER1600. I don't feel carbon is always needed. I upgraded my E1800 32 to the DT Swiss ARC 50 (I got them on deep sale last winter), and while I prefer the star ratchet, I don't feel carbon make such a big improvement (I could not probably tell blind folded, not that I will try). My E1800 have over 10,000km, I sent them in for a check, and they are still true and in good shape.
Sure. In the very shallow and narrow rim shames carbon make little difference. It’s big advantage is for deeper and wider rims without adding too much weight.
As a hobby builder, I have to calibrate the tensiometer for each new type of spoke I use. Users or buyers have to realize that a custom built wheel is never cheap. The some of the part might even be more than an off the shelf. You need to factor in the labour time to build it. Then put a tire on it. Ride it for 30km or so. Back on the stand and check again. True and tension. Custom can be to the level of different spokes use for the drive side and non-drive side to get down to cost/performance metrics. This is especially for the rear wheel. It is also not uncommon to use thicker 3mm bladed spokes for the drive side and triple butted on the non drive side. Spoke patterns also play a part. Coming back to the rear wheel, there standard 2x and 3x crosses, triplet lacing(2:1) and G3 lacing (Campagnolo).
Great sum up of all that's so important when selecting the components of a wheel(set). Would love to hear your thoughts about the spokes lace pattern used (Straight or over 2, 3 or 4spokes) in relation to the optimal tension and spoke diameter in a separate post
Great video, thanks for the info. Like you I'm amazed Shimano hubs aren't used more widely, the ball bearing version is so much better than all of these cartridge bearings, just ride next to someone who runs shimano ball bearings and see how much more you have to pedal!
I’m a fan of the “old” style DT 350 hubs, purely because the stickers come off for a nice clean look. Also, there’s a little known 24t ratchet pack available (from DT swiss) which splits the difference between the 18t and the 36t. It’s an e-bike part so it’s very solid, like the 18t and not “lightweight” like the 36/54. Doesn’t sound like much but for a road/allroad/gravel bike it’s an awesome upgrade and works on both the “old” and “new” DT 350 hubs. I’m also really uneasy about buying carbon rims from Asia. It’s very difficult to know if the quality is good from rim to rim. I’ll stick with Aluminium hoops! They tend to be more comfy to ride and they’re cheaper to boot! I may change my mind if DT ever offers aftermarket carbon rims, otherwise no dice.
I'd trust a random Chinese carbon rim over a cheapo aluminum rim made in the US😅 If DT ever sells an unlaced rim, it won't be cheap and you may as well buy ENVEs. DT wheels have never tested as being particularly fast. Swiss Side helped make them better but they're still not good
@@veganpotterthevegan I’ll never buy an ENVE product again. Absolute garbage. They couldn’t get a round 27.2mm seatpost correct three times in a row and I said enough is enough. DT aluminium rims are very, very good (e.g RR421) if you aren’t a racerboi.
@thedownunderverse DT makes great hubs. They don't make their carbon rims anymore so you're not even buying a DT product by buying their wheels. I have 3 sets of carbon DT wheels. They're "fine" but they really are terrible for the money and the only reason I have them is that my ex girlfriend was sponsored by them and got them for free
@@veganpotterthevegan that’s good info! I agree the hubs and spokes are excellent as are the aluminium rims but I assumed a company like that would make good carbon rims too either in house or outsourced to high standards of QC. Carbon is a material I still don’t fully trust on frames or rims… (or handlebars for that matter), so I’d only go there if the manufacturer has full control. Giant is the only one I trust in the frame stakes… yet to find an equivalent in the rim world. For fully built wheels, Campagnolo are still king IMO. Hoping they release an updated Zonda at 20mm wide. Shimano are good too but even their lowest-end Carbon rimmed wheels are very expensive.
@thedownunderverse everything can be done poorly and well. But I just trust cheap carbon over cheap aluminum more. Obviously high quality aluminum will be less risky than cheap carbon. But this also isn't 2008 anymore. There's a lot of cheap carbon that's very good when there was a time were even high end carbon had a high failure rate...I can't count the number of old Zipps and Bontrager carbon wheels I ran warranties on as a mechanic. But just out of curiosity, I bought a cheapo, 25mm(internal) hookless carbon set of rims. I laced them to DT 350s with Sapim spokes. These rims are only 30mm deep, under 320g each and were on sale for $108 per rim😅 I have about 15k miles on them and I ride them over very salt/plow damaged roads here in the mountains in Utah. They've been problem free and I've only had to touch them up once after the first week of riding. I can't say the same thing about Velocity and Pacenti alloy rims I've owned in the past. I've had even worse experiences with aluminum mtb rims. I still have some aluminum HED rims for training on a rim brake TT bike. But I will NEVER use aluminum rims off road ever again unless I'm on a fat bike
Lots of good info. Regarding hookless, will tire manufacturers continue to support hookless with some wheel manufacturers abandoning hookless rims. I'm a little PO'ed at Giant. I'm usually pretty up to speed on tech and have built my own wheels, but ended up with hookless on my 2022 Revolt because I was clueless about hooked vs. hookless when I bought it.
Maybe. Depends if marketing can make 30mm tyres the new 28mm. It would need a lot of frames to support that width. A 30mm tyre on a 23-24mm internal rim seems to be the sweet spot and covers a lot of weight range
you sort of missed what you do to match ther wheels, on the crap potholed roads, or tracks or smooth roads, due to where i ride i have a set of DT hubs but pair of really hard wearing hed ardennes rims not the fastest wheels but hard wearing but it reflects the surfaces i ride
Care to share your thoughts on Mavic's Infinity ID360 and Vision's in-house hub? I do understand a common complaint about Mavic is parts availability but never hear anything on the actual design and build quality.
Great stuff. There's way more to wheels than I realized. And I'm quite peeved at my lbs for not informing me that my bike has hookless wheels as standard, As I'm 90kgs I'm sure I'm pushing the limit on tire pressure. I'd love to see some real world testing with hookless vs hooked with different tire sizes and heavier than average riders. For example can a ~90kg rider get away with using 28mm tires on a hookless set up?
What a brilliant vid!!!. Many many thanks for your time and effort just goes to show weight is not everything. Would love to hear what you think of the latest alloy wheels that is only if you consider them relevant any more. Think i will save up and perhaps look closer at the Fastforward wheels option after watching this vid. Once again thanks for the knowledge never knew wheels were so complicated!!.
Enjoyed the tutorial as it dived deeper than I have ever considered. I am not sure I would ever build my own as it is very technical it seems. That said.......what is your thoughts on Spinergy wheels? Not mainstream but have been around for years now and I would think that is no coincidence but then again.....who knows. I do wish you were in the US and nearby as I would like to go through the course of building to have depth more in this side of things. I believe wheels over shaving weight on FD, RD, Crank and so on to be the best investment to help anyone's riding.
Hopefully this vid helped you make your own assessment on Spinergy based on your needs and areas of compromise. It’s an almost impossible question to answer without knowing lots of detail.
Well, you know you're really old when you owned all these components when they were new! Still have enough Tois Etelle spokes 1.8mm straight gage to build a wheel. Ark en Ciel rims moldering on the basement floor. A Regina Oro 14-18 stored in an old freezer. A rotting "Wobbler" Pro tire on a disused work bench! A foreign deport if such was a thing! The Dave Moulton restored and restromoded to 9 speed cassette without cold forming the dropouts! Decals match original. Original rear derailleur 1973 from its predecessor. The thing still gets ridden on sunny days and hangs on my wall. I've got new bikes, but would advise others to keep your favorite bike. It will be comforting later on!
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Considering the quality of the videos you guys put out, I am baffled by how little subscribers you have! I have asbolutely been binging your videos. Keep it going lads!
Thank you. Keep spreading the word.
@@Mapdecask people to subscribe during your videos!
because they are very biased
@@thehobbs7849 oh?
Good insight
Calling out the mindset of the wheel owner is crucial and often overlooked, so I think you're on the money there. "If you're the kind of rider who goes to your bike shop when you notice a creak or crack, it's usually too late. Buy a quality branded hub". Spot on. Not shaming, just realistic.
Oh... I'd also say that hookless isn't fit for purpose for most humans and needs to be ditched.
The mechanical side of hookless is fascinating to me. Because hookless is and has been standard on Car, truck and motorbike wheels for generations. I think the fundamental physics of Bike Wheels just don't align to hookless rims. The pressures are too high, the wheel widths are too small and the contact surface area is too low.
One day maybe someone will figure out some magic sauce to make it work, but for my money, I'm not touching hookless for a LONG LONG time.
@@pinkyfull Really it's just the weight and install issues that kill hookless for bicycles. You need proper equipment to break the bead on a car wheel. High performance car tires (i.e. road tire equivalents) are incredibly tight and require a lot of finger f*ing with your tire machine's hydraulic arm to get past the retention flange. A lot of that is that they have high tensile steel cables running around the bead area. On top of that the casing is quite beefy just past the bead. They're also dimensionally stable in a way that bike tires aren't because they're radials with steel belts running all the way around the tire. It's a totally different ball park.
We could make it work if we went to steel wire beads, 2500+ gram alloy wheelsets, $150 tires and $20 bucks per tire to have them installed at the garage. Good luck with flats and Strava KOMs, lol.
"Finger fffing" I love that sentence to describe some fiddly and annoying things... I have to remember that sentence, thanks :D@@waysidetimes9226
@@pinkyfull the problem with hookless is the the tires for bikes are build completely different to for example car tires. Far tires have radial metal stings waved I to the tire which helps to keep the form of the tire. Bicycle tires don't have this as it is much too heavy and this causes a lot of dangers for bicycle wheels/tires
I shopped around for ages before settling on Farsports Feder 45mm, 21 internal hooked, DT 240 hubs, sapin cx-ray with brass nipples. 1370 grams for less than 1,500 AUD. Been good wheels, no issues. Proof you don't need to spend Zipp or Enve money to get decent wheels.
I always build my own wheels i love to use Hope , Dt Swiss or for my budget ones Novatec hubs.
Mooi werk
building your own it's great, your get to pick and choose + its immensely satisfying
Yes I'm still watching. That was a deep deep dive into wheels.
Might I add it was wheelie wheelie good 😂
He was no where near spun out
Wow the quality of your words my mind blows ❤
Many thanks for taking the time and effort to put this all together, Paul. As you say, FFWD on a set of 350’s (or maybe some 240’s) is pretty much all you’ll ever need.
Glad you enjoyed it
I remember discovering your channel when your commented under Hambini’s wheel guide that your were also working on yours, and I’m glad it came out! Amongst all the great vids about wheels I watched (Ali Clarkson, Bini, Peak Torque and some french guys) this one definitely sets a benchmark imo. Thank you for all the practical and valuable informations you give away through this channel.
Thank you. Those are some big names to drop.
Paul raised the question of Shimano hubs not featuring much in factory built wheelsets, apart from Shimano branded wheels. The answer is that they tend to be heavier than many other brands, with steel axles, steel freehubs and loose ball bearings. Words such as 'durable', 'reliable', 'strong' are not attractive these days. Also, their 105 and Ultegra range are not available with lower spoke counts. My 32 spoke 105 rear hub has seen me through the winter months for the last few years.
My experience with DT Revolution spokes was not a happy one. Light and strong but very difficult to get high tension without creating serious spoke wind-up. Great care needed in the build up.
Pillar do not have a UK distributor, though the Cycle Clinic have started to stock some triple butted, round spokes. However, I know of no UK source for Pillar bladed spokes, common in some imported wheelsets from China.
having went from shallow alloy wheels that were 21mm to a set that was 31mm then to a 55mm set of carbons almost a year ago. I have now inherited the disease where I run out of road before ever reaching my top speed. There are no sections of road on my commute that are clear or long enough for me to really open up the taps and see how fast I can really go compared to the shallow rims.
21mm will get me from 0-28mph in 20-30 seconds but the moment I let off the pedals it starts to lose momentum really quickly. Its impossible to do the same with the 55mms and stomping on the pedals from a complete stop and expecting to go like a rocket ship has only resulted in giving me knee pain so I can only accelerate from a stop more like a steam train.
Its hard for me to decide which set to put on. On one hand Im addicted to the punchy acceleration of the shallow set but the 55 will cruise effortlessly above 30km/h. I may put the 31mm set back on and save the 55s for club, weekend rides and silly things like the Dynamo.
Excellent video! straightforward and right to the point!
What a great video for someone like myself who puts a ton of hard miles on his equipment. I do all of the work on my bike, but have only built a few wheels, so I don't have enough experience to make the right calls on things like which spokes to use, spoke tension, etc. Much appreciated for sharing knowledge acquired from years of experience.
I have two sets of handbuilt DCR 24 25 alloy disc brake wheels. 28 Sapim Cx Ray spokes front and rear, built on DCR / Bitex centrelock hubs. Internal hooked rim width 20 mm. First pair are 6 years old and still going strong with only a clean and re grease of the free hub pawls. Very happy with them and perform well without breaking the bank.
Very nice!
I have had good experiene wih the PIllar Wing spokes and shimano hubs. They are both very good.
Agree about Bitex RAF12/RAR12 road hubs for rim brakes. Inexpensive, light and well made. Spares readily available from DCR , a major distributor. Bitex disc brake hubs also excellent. Spa Cycles a good source for hubs, rims and spokes. Ryan Downes also for spokes. Cycle Clinic also do a good range of wheel components - Malcolm Borg has good info on wheel components.
If you're having a go at wheelbuilding it's important to calculate the ERD (effective rim diameter) of the rim so know what spoke length to order. In my experience a slightly long spoke is less problematic than a spoke that's too short. Never use alloy nipples.
Nice one Harry
I managed to get BITEX RSPF for a rim brake wheel rebuild. Little I got surprised after I put it on scale to check versus worn Ulegra WH-6700-F hub. Bitex was 96 grams versus 159 grams of Ultegra hub.
Glad to to see hookless starting to away. Saw the concept as dangerous. The heavy cheap stock wheels had the spokes too tight and too loose spoke situation on it with the cheap novatech hubs build going out. Limited choices for my CX/ general use/ gravel bike with rear tire clearance at 40 and fork is 15mmTA which wheels of different internal width to make work the best. So road wheels from local company using easy to find parts not enough spokes or dirt wheels to wide. Lucked out on spinergy on sale from local store new for each wheel. Not my first choice due to priority truing tools needed, it what I could afford and regional company just in case. Next set will be set a easier to service and find parts for.
Some new carbon rims are at the top of my list at the moment and vids like this are a lifesaver. There's so much to choose from and getting some good, honest advice is a godsend.
Glad to help!
Cracking deep dive video, thanks! 👍🏻
Gotta agree with the DT Swiss hubs but the best thing about them, for me, servicing is a breeze and the ratchet system is a maintenance dream. Pop off the driver body with cassette attached, clean the 5 or so parts, bit of grease, pop it back on. 5 minute job.
No pawls and springs, especially for ebikes, is a game changer.
I've been running Token Konax Pro 52 MM wheels with Pillar bladed straight pull spokes for a year now. So far so good with Continental GP 5000 TR tires. Have been a solid set for me.
Fantastic! Information-packed, well-presented, easy-to-understand, well-paced and useful. 😀
Thank you
Cheers for long form videos. Just getting started and can already tell this is a passion project.
Thanks for watching!
Thorough treatment of the topic. Some useful tips too.
Malcolm at the cycle clinic has a good piece on wheels. He's one of the best out there
Are you able to share a link?
Fantastically informative and balanced video. Thank you.
Extraordinarily happy with my FFWD Ryot 44's. Great customer experience, but beyond that they feel fast and snappy and so well-built that I'm very confident at high speeds. Not the lightest or fastest (like me), but the best wheels I've ever had for the price (just shy of 2k USD).
Fantastic video - love you work and. As you are very much in favor of DT Swiss hub, why don't you mention the complete DTSwiss wheels (ERC1400 DICUT) as great option at the 1.500 mark?
Fantastic review and walking through all the possibilities and issues with different wheels. It really helped me with my next road wheel set by DT Swiss!
I was really looking at the ENVE and the DT Swiss wheels. Your info on Hookless wheels cliched it for me. DT Swiss has great hubs and the I definitely want the hooked rims after your review. I have a mix of smooth as silk roads and some real sections with expansion joints cobbles etc. The DT Swiss ERC 1100 DICUT seems to be the best fit.
Great masterclass Paul , thanks for putting so much preparation and time into this. Knew the basics but have learnt so much more from you. My personal go to is hand built by a time served master craftsman wheel builder. As well as allowing customisation to suit purpose and rider type it also gives longevity and complete trust in the wheels over their lifetime. 👍😁
Glad it was helpful Kevin
Top notch video. Always considered wheel building as something out of reach but things are changing.
Small tip 28:27 just a dot of lube on spring of tension meter will stop this unpleasant sound 😉 I did it and enjoy silent work with it.
Spoke failure is often due to poor technique but a key issue is that of spoke length. If, for example, you use an online spoke calculator, you might find that the required spoke length is 285.2mm. You have a choice; do you opt for 286, 285 or 284 ( spokes are frequently available in 2mm increments eg 284, 286, 288 etc. This issue is addressed in a 6 minute video on RUclips by American wheelbuilder Bill Mould. Yhe video title is 'Optimal Spoke Length'. He concludes that a longer option is more reliable than a shorter one. Worth a look.
Totally. And those extended nipples help take up some excess thread.
Yes. Totally agree. Threads hanging out below the nipple create an elongation issue with the min. diameter in the threads of the spoke. And if the spoke is not long enough, it creates a "collapsing" type stress just under the head of the nipple. This time, because of the max diameter of the threads in the nipple. It is much better to have full contact with a smidge left over if necessary. With today's dbl. walled rims, this is easy to do.
Awesome video, thank you so much for sharing. Looks like the message on FFWD Ryots has not got to many people. Managed to pick up a new, display stock Ryot 33 with 240 hubs wheelset for the equivalent Euro 750. Dream build coming up.
I brought hope pro3 mono dt swiss 1.1 in 2004, i sold them 2023. Great wheelset , thousands of thousands of miles every winter inbetween . One spoke and bearings when needed
Good informative discussion. Thank you. I bought some Scribe wheels and I bought the tools, bearings, got spokes - I think those were included and with everything including the noise quieting grease they were still not expensive. Unlike yours, mine came well made and seriously stiff. I've ridden them hard for a couple of years now and haven't needed to use the parts I bought but the bearings are due. In fact, that's what I'll be doing later today.
I’m running a set of scribes 3 years now . They’ve been pretty much trouble free so far . I’ve quietened the hub with grease too . Definitely worth doing. Scribe are servicing their own wheels in house now too! I’d like @Mapdec to do a review of the carbon wheels . It would be interesting to hear his opinion
That’s good to hear. Carbon rims are pretty much standard items arrows many brands now. It’s the build quality and choice of components that really makes them good or not.
Cero AR24 Rim brake set. If you can do your own bearings etc thay are fine.. I'm 100kg and never broke one in a very hilly area. I have broken CX Rays.. 200 quid 1500g.
Tredz had a crazy deal on Reynolds AR 41 rim brakes - so I bought them as I saw that Jake was running a pair. I was attracted to the lifetime warranty and that Reynolds are now backed by a big brand like Hayes.
also, I've ridden to wheelsets with pillar spokes and I found both wheelsets flexy af. Not good.
Nice. 👍
Always on the lookout for rim brake options (I'm currently on Ksyriums, which I like). I'd probably stick to alloy, but Reynolds are not a brand I knew anything about, so interesting to look anyway. Almost had a heart-attack when I saw their brake pads are £60. What's that about!?
Tks. Now.. i know what to look for when looking for wheels...to suit my kind of ride and matching rim to desired tyre size and safety considerations. Just need facts and no validation as i am not using chris king hubs! Keep it (vids) coming!!
Great video, very informative. As for myself I'm am old school wheel builder I built my first wheel way back in 1978 when I was 18, since then I have built well over 10K wheels mostly built on a $ 2.00 flea market find wheel truing stand I built wheels for 2 San Francisco bay area distributors, D.I.N. industries and Kobe Co. both of which are now long gone. Many of my high end wheels were built with custom cut spokes by Phil Wood, I would roll into Phil Wood and see Bernie and he would cut my spokes for me. I don't use tension meters or spoke prep, when tension meters 1st arrived to the market place a co worker at D.I.N. industries looked at one, grabbed it and tossed it into a garbage can and said, Baron doesn't need this, I guess it wasn't needed I picked one up looked at it and that was it I never touched a tension meter ever again, if I do remember correctly it was Wheel Smith who produced the 1st spoke tension meter. Timing for myself when building a single quality built wheel could take 3 to 4 hours total, I will true then destress the spokes at times pushing the wheel out of trueness, then do these procedures again then bring it back into trueness, then I'll drop a tiny drop of oil into the top section of the nipple spin the wheels for a bit then hang them up to let them rest over night, next day I will repeat the same procedures once again, finishing touch is to mount the tire and tube, over pressurize the the tire, drop a tiny drop of oil again then spin the wheel so the oil can find it way into the threads then I'll apply the final turning of the nipples, when all said and done then they are ready for the road. At times some of my customers will ask, are you turning the nipple because I don't see any movement I'll reply, yes but at times very little is needed, it's all about touch, sight and sound. one customer has logged well over 40K miles on his touring bike wheel set, I said hey Ike how's about servicing your wheel set, he said what for, why mess up such a good thing, they will have 40K miles on them and are doing just fine, I replied, not! He then showed my his bike computer and said the numbers don't lie.
BTW: When building the rear wheel in the old days I would want to bring the rear gears as close to the right side chain stay, this is done by respacing the axle, via respacing the axle shifting the spacing over to the other side, when doing so the wheel will be more symmetrical, thus building a stronger wheel and on some steel frames I'd even dent the inside of the right chain stay, as like I had to do with my lugged steel track bike that was converted into a road bike and it was tight.
In the mid 80's I built a wheel set for a privateer Specialized sponsor rider, Brad Decker, several weeks later he was rear ended by a car that the CHP estimated that the car rear ended him was traveling at roughly 80 MPH, anyway after his accident he came into the shop being all torn up, he told me of these happenings and I replied well there goes your wheel set then he laughed and went to his car and pulled his wrecked bike out, the frame was totalled, the front end was totally callapsed, the accident was so violent the front end locked into the pavement, when I saw this for sure I was thinking the front wheel must have disintegrated, then he pulled out the wheel set, I couldn't believe my eyes the wheels looked to be 100% intact, I checked the front wheel and it was like the day it was built, it was as straight and tight as can be the rear wheel only had a small blip, he said check them over true up the rear wheel, I'll have a race in about 3 weeks time and I want to use these wheels, I said nope, I'm not touching these wheels, if you really want me to work on them then you'll need to sign a waiver, so he did. He then got his new Specialize bike less of course the wheels of which I don't think Specialized wasn't in favor of, end game he did the race then came into my shop after the race with a friend and said, this is the man, his wheels are TITS! Then said he did his best finish on a badly crashed sets of wheels, he finished 3rd. Today I don't do much wheel building, my thumb joint is a bit messed up from all the wheel building. For me when building a wheel, it's all about, touch, sight and sound as like one of my customers would say, you're fine tuning my wheel as like some one that is fine tuning a violin. Just my long 2 cents.
I think anyone that throws away a scientific instrument thinking that their experience is superior is being extremely arrogant. They might well have built perfectly tensioned wheels, but how would they know with a scientific verification? Science.
Great to hear that custom road bikes are making a comeback! I own an older ti custom frame, and have rode that bike thousands and thousands of miles. May be looking for something similar but with a few added twists. Thanks for sharing all of this!!
HED 180s front and rear. Onyx vesper hub. Set up tubeless on conti 5000s
Good video. I had Enve m730s on Hadley hubs with DT competition spokes. Very solid wheels. Selected using some of the principles you listed here
Brilliant video, I've already passed on the link on a Reddit forum thread where someone is asking about which carbon wheel to upgrade to. I sure hope they'll watch for your superb guidance.
Thanks for that!
31:08 Reserve is Santa Cruz Bicycles wheel brand. But never tried them. But Their ads show massive abuse. Danny Macaskill rode on the rims down stairs I think. But they seem nice. but I've always went for ALu.
Yes. All part of PON. Cervelo, Cannondale, GT
Exactly the video I needed! I want to build a set of wheels and there was so much information here I couldn't find anywhere else - I am still processing. Thanks!
Glad I could help!
That is the video I needed! I am planning to order wheels for my new endurance bike and this helped to bring to clarity to the subject. I am in Poland, but I wish I could order the wheels from you, guys..
You can. We can ship.
Great content keep it up mate 👍🏼
Thank you so much 🙏
Excellent video! I do have a set of princeton carbonworks Peak 4550 and their my best wheelset ... worth the money and customer service is fantastic. They have Tune hubs which are very light easy to service but not too sure about long term durability yet
Thank you.
for myself and breaking many brands, i stick with Bontrager and Roval across various disciplines. my Roval cx38's have been bombproof gravel racing and cyclocross.
I love your videos and for the most part this is a great one. I think the title is completely inaccurate though as the budget in "wheels for every budget" starts at £900 which is just unrealistic for most people. Why does this not start at a much lower figure? £300 constitutes a wheel upgrade from most stock bike offerings and would be applicable to a much wider audience. Keep up the good work though! 👍
Point taken.
I’ve had a great experience with BTLOS on two wheelsets. I built one from custom rims and the other was built by them. My initial order came with a damaged box and there ended up being some cosmetic damage to one of the rims. BTLOS offered to ship a new wheel or take an $80 discount and keep the scuffed rim. I was so satisfied with the customer service that I ordered the rims to build my own wheelset for my gravel bike fairly quick after that. They did a custom layup that added about 40 grams of carbon to increase the weight capacity from 130kg to 160kg, so that I had plenty of extra room for camping gear.
Just built a new mtb front wheel with a DT Swiss 350 classic front hub, Mavic rim and DT Rev spokes. Wheel went together really easily and wasnt far out of true or round before I put it in the jig. Never pinged or twanged on its first ride . DT Swiss 350's are my favourite hubs now , although built some summer gravel wheels with Superstar hubs, which are Novatec rebadged. DT Revs again and DT Swiss rims . Happy with those over the facory Fulcrum wheelset that came with my Planet X Tempest, which are now made up as winter wheels.
Nice one. Well done on building yourself
Great video as usual. Just would like a bit more guidance at the budget end, particularly aluminium rims. Recently bought a pair of £300 Hunt aluminium "all year" wheels. Will be looking at them with new eyes now!
At 1500g they weren't much heavier than the cheaper end of the carbon ones. Now I know the difference might be hubs and spokes.
Fair point. Much of the detail is the same. The only difference to consider is depth really, because it can add a lot of weight to an alu rim. There are not many hookless alu rims about any more to worry about.
What a comprehensive, easy to watch video. Thanks for that!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Still using alloyrims tubular tyres do me fine not so keen on my carbon rims only inthe dry
Great video. The most informative unbiased I've seen on wheels.
Thank you
Shoutout to scrub wheels. Hand made in the uk with a range of budget and name brand components. Can heartily recommend from my own experience with his work.
Nice to hear a good builder doing well
ICAN FL50 with Novatech hubs, and Sapim spokes. I’ve ridden these for 3000+ miles as they are as straight as the day I got them. Highly recommend, high value wheels.
Unsure whether you’ll find this comment, but I want to thank you, and let you know that I’ve just set up and begun riding a set of FFWD F4R wheels with Pirelli P Zero Race tires. Yes, it’s the rim brake option, and no, I’m running TPU tubes instead of going tubeless, *but* the difference is still enormous compared to my previous wheels (Mavic Kyserium Anniversary Editions from the mid 2000s (!) and Conti5000s)! Thank you so much!
Pleasure. 👍
Very comprehensive and helpful video!
Thank you
this is exactly what I have been searching for my new wheelset choice Thank you so much
Glad I could help!
Great video 🙏 The only part of this subject I thought might be missing (and apologies if I DID miss it), especially for someone new to cycling, is the choice between clinchers, tubeless clinchers and tubulars. You did mention hookless a few times and to me this is subset of a more fundamental up-front decision for someone who is new to upgrading their wheels!
I didn’t mention so much. It’s rare to find a hooked clincher these days that is not tubeless compatible, and tubular is dying off faster than rim brakes
@@Mapdec totally agree on rim brake wheels (or anything 'rim brake' for that matter, including frames, regrettably!) but disc brake tubular wheels (and tyres) seem to be continuing, maybe because a tubular carbon disc rim is manufactured in a similar way to a clincher carbon disc rim. Agree that demand for these is diminishing too, but some people might like to consider them as options....
great video. However Campagnolo is a great absent here... ( guess you could stow them in the 100% proprietary box)
I'm currently comparing two options: Corima Essentia 40 and DT Swiss GRC1400. The Corimas are ahead in pretty much all aspects except crash replacement.
Corima: need to register within 10 days of purchase. For 3 years, a decreasing discount of 50>30>10% for a new wheel of the same model.
DT Swiss: no registration necessary, for 10 years, 249€ flat fee to have the rim repaired or replaced.
I really don't know if I should give the crash replacement so much weight to offset everything else. My bike is going to be insured anyways.
I would say the Corima ride smoother, but that DT Swiss build is solid.
I generally have my MTB wheels built with DT Comps/brass nipples but I went DT Alpjne IIIs for my DJ bike and I'd go the same for eMTB wheels.
Edit: I also make sure my wheel builder supplies a few spare spokes of each length I might need in case I need them fixed in a hurry (if I'm on holiday for example).
For the MTB equivalents to your three categories at the end (only roughly the same price?) I'd go:
Extravagance: Chris King/Enve (£4,000?)
Benchmark: I9 Hydra/SC Reserve 30|HD (£2,000?)
Compromise: Hope Pro 5/DT EX 511 (£700?)
I used hunt i did have problems at times. My main bike as got a rear hub motor it wasn't made right after year spokes went . I now gone to local wheelbuilder who got stronger rims h son and on rear sapin strong spokes plus washers .
Good move. 👍
Freehubs tend to go first on my wheels, I like Fulcrum's Raciing 900 as cheap, well sealed, easy to regrease freehub and change bearings. Use old NOS Shimano 7spd 26" mtb wheels on my commute bike, bombproof.
I absolutely loved this video
Wish it was created just like this, when I first started getting into bike wheels
Thank you.
Campagnolo shamals here love them have 2 x sets of ally rim brake and a set of carbon disc excellent wheels easy to service lovely hubs 😊😃🚴🏻 Pete
Yes. They are.
Really well done. Loved the structure and detail of this video, especially the simple checks on wheel quality. Thank you! FYI, I just got the Hunt Alloy SL wheels and I'm trying to decide if I should keep them. This will help a lot!
Awesome, thank you!
Very good summary Paul . I was missing one topic that is spoke count. Maybe only since I’m in a bit of a trouble.
I’m a big fan of DT350. A while ago i’ve purchased a set of hub 2nd hand, never built. Price was very good and I needed the freehubs for a conversion.
Now i have a set of road 350’s on the shelf and it’s tempting to build a road training wheel in my gravel bike. I big issue which I’ve realized only after receiving the hubs.
24 spokes front and rear as well. (Disc)
I know it would be better to have 28 in the back, but this is what i have now.
What spoke and rim (alu) combo should i consider to build a reliable wheel?
I’m 85 kg, no extreme sprints or ftp, lots of bad roads. Will be going for 30 or 32mm road tyres…
Any good budget ideas to get use of these otherwise very good hubs?
Mavic AT1022 come in 24 hole. Would probably go for Sapim laser spokes
Is this Rim (a1022) new? Was off my radar.
Was planning to go for hooked otherwise looks very cool. Remind s me to the open pro which looks also cool.
Sapim lasers. Never went yet for those. Was always a littbe bit worried about twisting. But i’ve built only a couple of wheels yet
Thanks for the advice and the quick turnaround.
Very informative and constructively biased as ever from Mr Mapdec.
It’s a shame that not more new bikes with more premium frames, wheel sets etc don’t get the choice of 105. My Domane SLR 7 Gen4 has a nice set of wheels and was deeply discounted, 105 would have served just fine.
BTW You can pair the 105 11-36 cassette with the new Ultegra Di2 groupset and It works fine. Just be careful with the b screw adjustment.
My main issue with the Di2 set up is the lack of a rear mech clutch - noisy chain slap for us less meticulous gear changers.
Rear mech charging isn’t so bad though, I have no electric in my garage and a very understanding wife. Battery life is much better than SRAM
Totally agree - SRAM Rival AXS beats the 105 and Ultegra Di2 hands down. Tried it on the new Frankenstein Canyon Endurace and it was great. I’d go fir that and wish I had in the otherwise great Domane Gen4.
Farsports Revo rims on DT Swiss 240 EXP hubs, Sapim CX-Rays: $1,299 + shipping. Fantastic build quality, top quality non-proprietary hubs and spokes and some of the best hooked rims you can buy for a very good price. Also, great out of the box build quality.
Wow!! super review. Was looking for ear pieces for riding and these seems the one! Thank you for your work on this. And beautiful ride route.
Great video, How does Hope RX24 Pro 5 compare with the DTSwiss G1800 or GR1600?
I don't enjoy the hassle of 20 miles of heavy traffic and terrible roads to get anywhere from where I live so I just stick with Campy rims for my race bike and the originals on my other bikes. The L.District is a good Carboniferous era for yer carbons, brass nips for the rain, makes sense. Don't do distance cycling anymore, the London traffic has won
Great presentation Paul we appreciate your effort and research in preparing this video 👍
Thank you
Great detail in this video - nice one. Quick question unless I missed the answer - is it generally a thumbs up to using nipple washers across the board or specific scenarios where you might opt not to use them? Thinking more from a MTB perspective
They just need to be used as appropriate. There are very few cases where a MTB would need them. You don’t really have high spoke tensions, or very light wheels that need force distribution. You might see them if the rim is rough finished and prevents a nipple turning
@@Mapdec nice one, thanks for the reply.
Great video.
I would like your opinion on winter wheels.
Also, loads of people are loading bags onto their bikes. Any advice on wheels for light weight touring?
British roads are atrocious, and will not improve in my lifetime. Any advice on real world pot hole resistant wheel, and tyre choice?
What about some figures on rider weight. There are lots of big people out there on race bikes - fat lad at the back! Any advice for big guys?
Lastly: are you going on holiday? Will the tiny local bike shop have wheel spares if you damage an exotic wheel on tour?
For this, you can’t go wrong with DT Swiss alloy wheels. Spares available world wide and rated to 130kg. If you want Carbon rims it’s not so easy as DT put their nipples internally and use alu. I would probably be inclined to build something.
Really enjoyed that video. I won't be looking to upgrade my wheels for a while, but from watching this I know what I want, what to look for and that I need to put some more money aside 😂 Also, learnt that I am inflating my Giant wheels too close to the 'max'. All round great video.
Thank you. Stay safe
How about a set of DT-Swiss ER1600. I don't feel carbon is always needed. I upgraded my E1800 32 to the DT Swiss ARC 50 (I got them on deep sale last winter), and while I prefer the star ratchet, I don't feel carbon make such a big improvement (I could not probably tell blind folded, not that I will try). My E1800 have over 10,000km, I sent them in for a check, and they are still true and in good shape.
Sure. In the very shallow and narrow rim shames carbon make little difference. It’s big advantage is for deeper and wider rims without adding too much weight.
As a hobby builder, I have to calibrate the tensiometer for each new type of spoke I use. Users or buyers have to realize that a custom built wheel is never cheap. The some of the part might even be more than an off the shelf. You need to factor in the labour time to build it. Then put a tire on it. Ride it for 30km or so. Back on the stand and check again. True and tension.
Custom can be to the level of different spokes use for the drive side and non-drive side to get down to cost/performance metrics. This is especially for the rear wheel. It is also not uncommon to use thicker 3mm bladed spokes for the drive side and triple butted on the non drive side. Spoke patterns also play a part. Coming back to the rear wheel, there standard 2x and 3x crosses, triplet lacing(2:1) and G3 lacing (Campagnolo).
Great sum up of all that's so important when selecting the components of a wheel(set).
Would love to hear your thoughts about the spokes lace pattern used (Straight or over 2, 3 or 4spokes) in relation to the optimal tension and spoke diameter in a separate post
thank you. That would be a long video. even longer than this one, and much of it contrived.
Ali Clarkson has a very comprehensive video with great illustrations on this topic
Great video, thanks for the info. Like you I'm amazed Shimano hubs aren't used more widely, the ball bearing version is so much better than all of these cartridge bearings, just ride next to someone who runs shimano ball bearings and see how much more you have to pedal!
Super informative!! Great video. Thank you! Now I know more about wheels.
Thank you
awesome vid, thanks for the effort! I wish you had covered the difference between straight pull and J-bend spokes, pros/cons
SP remove the weak point in the spoke and prevent torsional stresses, however that can be harder to build with and if built poorly can loose tension.
thank you for this very detailed vid. Very usefull infos.
Glad it was helpful!
I love my DT Swiss ARC1100 s with GP5000 tyres smooth n fast
Great video. My aluminium Gravel DT Swiss wheels with DT Swiss hubs roll better than some aero carbon wheels my friends use.
Thank you.
Great video. Very useful for someone building their own wheels.
Glad it was helpful!
Your makeup is professional as hell!
😳
Running scribe wheels down. That were not new. Go get set scride carbon wheels and review them there class🚀🚀🚀
I’m a fan of the “old” style DT 350 hubs, purely because the stickers come off for a nice clean look. Also, there’s a little known 24t ratchet pack available (from DT swiss) which splits the difference between the 18t and the 36t. It’s an e-bike part so it’s very solid, like the 18t and not “lightweight” like the 36/54. Doesn’t sound like much but for a road/allroad/gravel bike it’s an awesome upgrade and works on both the “old” and “new” DT 350 hubs.
I’m also really uneasy about buying carbon rims from Asia. It’s very difficult to know if the quality is good from rim to rim. I’ll stick with Aluminium hoops! They tend to be more comfy to ride and they’re cheaper to boot! I may change my mind if DT ever offers aftermarket carbon rims, otherwise no dice.
I'd trust a random Chinese carbon rim over a cheapo aluminum rim made in the US😅 If DT ever sells an unlaced rim, it won't be cheap and you may as well buy ENVEs. DT wheels have never tested as being particularly fast. Swiss Side helped make them better but they're still not good
@@veganpotterthevegan I’ll never buy an ENVE product again. Absolute garbage. They couldn’t get a round 27.2mm seatpost correct three times in a row and I said enough is enough. DT aluminium rims are very, very good (e.g RR421) if you aren’t a racerboi.
@thedownunderverse DT makes great hubs. They don't make their carbon rims anymore so you're not even buying a DT product by buying their wheels. I have 3 sets of carbon DT wheels. They're "fine" but they really are terrible for the money and the only reason I have them is that my ex girlfriend was sponsored by them and got them for free
@@veganpotterthevegan that’s good info! I agree the hubs and spokes are excellent as are the aluminium rims but I assumed a company like that would make good carbon rims too either in house or outsourced to high standards of QC. Carbon is a material I still don’t fully trust on frames or rims… (or handlebars for that matter), so I’d only go there if the manufacturer has full control. Giant is the only one I trust in the frame stakes… yet to find an equivalent in the rim world. For fully built wheels, Campagnolo are still king IMO. Hoping they release an updated Zonda at 20mm wide. Shimano are good too but even their lowest-end Carbon rimmed wheels are very expensive.
@thedownunderverse everything can be done poorly and well. But I just trust cheap carbon over cheap aluminum more. Obviously high quality aluminum will be less risky than cheap carbon. But this also isn't 2008 anymore. There's a lot of cheap carbon that's very good when there was a time were even high end carbon had a high failure rate...I can't count the number of old Zipps and Bontrager carbon wheels I ran warranties on as a mechanic. But just out of curiosity, I bought a cheapo, 25mm(internal) hookless carbon set of rims. I laced them to DT 350s with Sapim spokes. These rims are only 30mm deep, under 320g each and were on sale for $108 per rim😅 I have about 15k miles on them and I ride them over very salt/plow damaged roads here in the mountains in Utah. They've been problem free and I've only had to touch them up once after the first week of riding. I can't say the same thing about Velocity and Pacenti alloy rims I've owned in the past. I've had even worse experiences with aluminum mtb rims. I still have some aluminum HED rims for training on a rim brake TT bike. But I will NEVER use aluminum rims off road ever again unless I'm on a fat bike
No buzz here, only valuable information. Thx that will help me
Lots of good info. Regarding hookless, will tire manufacturers continue to support hookless with some wheel manufacturers abandoning hookless rims. I'm a little PO'ed at Giant. I'm usually pretty up to speed on tech and have built my own wheels, but ended up with hookless on my 2022 Revolt because I was clueless about hooked vs. hookless when I bought it.
Maybe. Depends if marketing can make 30mm tyres the new 28mm. It would need a lot of frames to support that width. A 30mm tyre on a 23-24mm internal rim seems to be the sweet spot and covers a lot of weight range
you sort of missed what you do to match ther wheels, on the crap potholed roads, or tracks or smooth roads, due to where i ride i have a set of DT hubs but pair of really hard wearing hed ardennes rims not the fastest wheels but hard wearing but it reflects the surfaces i ride
Care to share your thoughts on Mavic's Infinity ID360 and Vision's in-house hub? I do understand a common complaint about Mavic is parts availability but never hear anything on the actual design and build quality.
It’s an over engineered hub that eats parts. Vision are ok. Depends on support in your country.
Great stuff. There's way more to wheels than I realized. And I'm quite peeved at my lbs for not informing me that my bike has hookless wheels as standard, As I'm 90kgs I'm sure I'm pushing the limit on tire pressure. I'd love to see some real world testing with hookless vs hooked with different tire sizes and heavier than average riders. For example can a ~90kg rider get away with using 28mm tires on a hookless set up?
Great question. This is why brands are taking maters into their own hands. What does the pressure calc say?
@@Mapdec Thanks for the reply, I don't put a lot a faith in any of the online calc's I'd like real world results to compare.
What a brilliant vid!!!. Many many thanks for your time and effort just goes to show weight is not everything. Would love to hear what you think of the latest alloy wheels that is only if you consider them relevant any more. Think i will save up and perhaps look closer at the Fastforward wheels option after watching this vid. Once again thanks for the knowledge never knew wheels were so complicated!!.
They are still relevant, most of this vid is still relevant.
Enjoyed the tutorial as it dived deeper than I have ever considered. I am not sure I would ever build my own as it is very technical it seems. That said.......what is your thoughts on Spinergy wheels? Not mainstream but have been around for years now and I would think that is no coincidence but then again.....who knows. I do wish you were in the US and nearby as I would like to go through the course of building to have depth more in this side of things. I believe wheels over shaving weight on FD, RD, Crank and so on to be the best investment to help anyone's riding.
Hopefully this vid helped you make your own assessment on Spinergy based on your needs and areas of compromise. It’s an almost impossible question to answer without knowing lots of detail.
Well, you know you're really old when you owned all these components when they were new! Still have enough Tois Etelle spokes 1.8mm straight gage to build a wheel. Ark en Ciel rims moldering on the basement floor. A Regina Oro 14-18 stored in an old freezer. A rotting "Wobbler" Pro tire on a disused work bench! A foreign deport if such was a thing! The Dave Moulton restored and restromoded to 9 speed cassette without cold forming the dropouts! Decals match original. Original rear derailleur 1973 from its predecessor. The thing still gets ridden on sunny days and hangs on my wall. I've got new bikes, but would advise others to keep your favorite bike. It will be comforting later on!
Nice collection