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Red Dot vs LPVO - We Really Want to Like LPVO's
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- Опубликовано: 16 авг 2024
- We really want to like LPVO's (low power variable optics). And yet every time we shoot them we wind up wishing we had a red dot and magnifier. Today we go head to head in a series of drills to figure out if LPVO's can exist in our life.
Thanks to Accufire for sponsoring today's video!
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Chapters
00:00 - We want to like LPVO's
00:14 - Montage
00:58 - Opening thoughts
02:50 - Thanks Accufire
03:23 - What we're shooting
04:01 - Bill Drills
07:09 - Moving and shooting
09:10 - Stoeger Drill
10:05 - Support the Syndicate
10:51 - X Drill
12:45 - Low/high ready/turns
19:50 - 100 meters
25:38 - 175 meters
30:12 - The Debate
33:27 - Cost
35:16 - Weight
36:05 - Benefit of a magnifier
39:14 - Batteries
41:21 - Final Thoughts
44:40 - Firearms Legal Protection
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As a LPVO diehard: that was a great video.
in my opinion.
Use as much mag as needed for the target, no more. 6x and for sure 8x is massive overkill for 99% of shooting, and really is only relevant for prone long range stuff.
This isn’t a crossover I expected. While quite different in a lot of ways you both have great channels and it’s always nice to see more input on topics from people with a wide range of experience.
They should be setting up the eye box on full magnification and in their natural head position. This way they will hit it every time.
@@Way2Evl yessir. i've come to learn not as many people realize this as i had expected.
Hey everyone, Brass Facts here
I get that they are also big creators but your refusal to call out the glaring issue of doing an LPVO review consisting entirely of speed drills at
For standing off hand comparison you should be shooting the LPVO at the same mag as your red dot maginfier, ie 3X. I never zoom my LPVO in past the 3-4 range when shooting off hand. This gives you better field of view and less sensitive eye box. If the target is far enough away to need 8x then you should have time to go prone or go to a supprted position.
Well said!
Unless you run a SFP, then get used to running it at max.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz even with SFP, you likely don't need a bdc / reticle etc at 200 yards and in just like with the red dot and magnifier combo. You start pushing the distance far enough to need the reticle for holds then yeah, with SFP you are likely going to full mag so the reticle works. This is why I advocate for SFP LPVOs staying in the 4-6x max magnification range. If you want 8 or 10x max, I would steer towards FFP so you can dial back at intermediate distances.
@@thegrayham same. I dont even like the idea of a 6x SFP, but would probably tolerate it. Something like a SFP 10x is just wacky in my mind.
@acdrz125 you shouldn't need anything but the center dot when using an LPVO really. It's not a precision scope. Same as a red dot. Just gives more magnification for IDing and give the option for more precise shots at range if applicable.
Chris is the only person who can comfortably shoot a Daniel Defense rifle with their vertical grip in the factory location 😂
😂😂😂😂 100% dude
That Yeti reach do be really long.....😆
@@BrianKern2121 😂😂😂
Yeah, two things from Daniels I dont understand.
The use of 6061 and that VFG at the end of a 15" rail.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballzthe placement of the VFG at the end of the rail is actually to help the rifles stay stable on the assembly line. Learned that in a DD factory tour
Red dot with a quick detach 3x magnifier for me. I’m a civilian and I don’t do Recce, DMR or SPR builds because I don’t go on missions. My set ups are all for home/self defense which would likely occur inside of 100 yards. Another amazing video. Thanks guys.
Try flipping the magnifier or running the magnification lever with your strong hand and leaving your support hand on the gun, you might find that it is a little faster. Sure you may be breaking your firing grip but because you drive the gun with your support hand/arm you can keep it on target or get it onto the next target while you are making the magnification change and maintain your cheek weld at the same time. Also your strong hand is physically closer to the magnifier/magnification lever meaning there is less movement required.
Lol, Chris must be huge. That stock fully extended. With the hand stop out that far and his support hand still bent..... on a 16-inch. Big dude. Great video guys 🤙🇺🇸
big dude....big target
He’s not tiny
@@1911syndicatesmall where it counts
Saw him at a suppressor event in Austin a couple years ago...he's a big ass dude
Tonight on 1911 Syndicate: Jake tries to express Love, but doesn't know what that is, The AZ Yeti admits to his red dot addiction, and the Red Fire Extinguisher makes it's first appearance as a new presenter......
As an LEO I run Jake’s ideal setup, 11.5 with T2 and magnifier, and a 14.5 with Vudu 1-8 and offset dot. Two rifles in the patrol car to keep me covered for any situation
🍻
Perfecto sir. Thanks for your service to the community
Also a LEO. I think having a profession really helps you find your “identity” when it comes to your ideal setup. I debated for years until I got into LE. The job helped me discover in real time that a holo+magnifier is ideal for me. At least for work.
@@1911syndicate and Jake it was a pleasure chatting with you in gallensons that one time 🤠
Jesus fuck how well funded is your agency hahaha.
Imagine spending 45 minutes debating whats in second or third place and never mentioning first
Long live King Acog
Lol can I get one for $300?
Long live the king!
Acogs are way too limiting compared to both a red dot +mag and lpvo.
I have a 1-6 sfp lpvo set up for a 36yd zero on a 16in barrel. This gives me a max point blank range out to 300ish yds. From zero to 100ish yds I leave it at 1x mag. From 100 to 300 yds I use whatever magnification I need to get hits. Past 300 yds I max out the magnification and use hnown holds on the reticle for 350, 400, 450 yds etc. I find this gives me the functionality of a red dot out to 300 yds( center reticle on target and pull trigger) and past 300 yds I have the precision of a magnified scope with a usable reticle.
Thanks guys for the video. It was great and respect for not faking the funk when you are grinding your drills. I noticed the height over bore switching from red dot to LPVO was a lot lower and that could have made it harder for you to keep your eye box.
I see a lot of the lpvo vs red dot videos. All I have to say is, it comes down to your mission or purpose you are using it for. They both have a place in this world. Use a red dot but need to push out further, get a magnifier. Use a lpvo but need to shoot a target up close, use a off set red dot. For example my mk18 uses a red dot and if I need to push 200-300 yards then I have a magnifier. My recce has a 1-6 lpvo and if I need to engage a target inside 100 yards then I have an off set red dot. It’s all about the intent of the mission. It’s that simple. Red dot mk18 is cqb missions and the lpvo is intended to hit targets out to distance off 600 yards maybe further.
LPVOs don’t make sense if you’re not going to use the 1x for 1x things. Just get a 2-10 with an offset dot at that point. Better field of view and parallax adjustment which you’re going to want on longer shots anyway.
@@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595which 2-10 do you recommend?
@@Billy4theWin11 If you’re on a budget, Primary arms or Vortex. If not, Nightforce.
Problem is people doing them don't know what the hell they are talking about.
@@chaoticcaninejb How so?
I’m going to be honest. I bought an lpvo because I had a few red dots and I just wanted something different. “My mission” is that I like guns and collect them because I think they are cool and wanted more variety. If you aren’t using these optics for duty works it’s just not that big a deal.
The idea of going "1x or max magnification and nothing in between" kinda only applies to sfp reticles that were zeroed when set to max magnification and even then it's only at longer ranges where it really matters. For FFP scopes in general and for SFP scopes combined with guns that shoot relatively flat at shorter ranges you just set the magnification to whatever you want, nothing stops you and that's actually one of the main advantages over a red dot + magnifier combo.
this.
The fact that they used a TYPE-A in this video shows true to what he said in their TYPE-A reviews. Love that. Especially being from Grand Rapids. Proud!
Yea man great guns
Yes, I have a Type-A SPR 10.5 5.56 NATO A3 Pistol red dot plus 3x magnifier for past 2-3 years. By this time tomorrow it will have a 3x microprism with offset red dot. My 16" AR has red dot plus 3x magnifier. Honestly, torn between keeping it as is, or switching to LPVO +/- offset red dot.
I have both a 1-8x LPVO and EOTech w/ 3x magnifier and if I had to grab one it would be the second option. I will say that if you have a LPVO, having a top mounted RMR adds a lot of versatility at close range and through NODs.
I can appreciate all the honesty and non editing of the misses and struggles of the shooting. Now, that’s awesome!!!!
I tried loving LPVOs (no hate for them, just not my jam). Red dot plus magifier wasnt quite it either. So I ended with ACOG and an offset red dot. Is the ACOG antiquated? Yes. Does it have a garbage eye relief? Yes. Is it bomb proof? Absolutely. And adding to that I have years of experience with it so it's comforting for me. All that to say run what you are good with and practice. Don't overthink it too much.
Jake’s rant about the abusive relationship went on a little longer than expected 😂😭 We are all here for you Jake ❤️
This video makes me think every other red dot vs LPVO video I have ever watched was bullshit. I realized watching this they can’t really be compared against each other. Thought provoking to be sure. That lens break from the ejecting cartridge is also priceless.
Jake is shooting a second focal plane LPVO with a generous eye box and good light transmission on a heads up mount, Chris, used to tall AF mounted red dots, is shooting a first focal plane LPVO with... im guessing not premium glass... on a 1.5 mount.
General purpose. I like the lpvo. Home defense I'll always choose my reddot. Just what I'm comfortable with and it's just stupid easy.
Yeah. LPVO best overall, Red Dot if you’re addressing a known threat.
Except for AR10 used at longer ranges for target and hunting, All of my 9mm, 5.56 and 300 BO rifles have a red dot with flip up 3x -4x magnifier and 45 degree offset iron sights. The .308 has 45 degree offset iron sights, a 3x illuminated BDC reticle battlesight with a flip up 4x magnifier if in Big Sky Country .or the Arizona see forever desert where I live. It works best for me shooting wise but is also budget friendly for us middle class folks.
"I want to like lpvo's".... proceeds to shoot nothing but close range. Add a 300, 400, and 500 meter drill and we'll see where you fall right? And before anyone cries about those distances... pretty sure ppl have been hitting those shots with 4x acogs so not unrealistic distances. Also, you have an lpvo... it's not a 1 or 6 like an elcan... it's a 1-6. If you're shooting at 175m, don't use 6x. put it on 3x or 4x.
I don't even bother throwing lpvo's on guns I don't expect to shoot out past 200. Just throw an elcan on it and call it a day or go acog/rmr. Red dots go on like home defense guns you're going to never shoot out past 50. EVERY gun I want to reach out past 200 on it has either an lpvo or a real scope. Magnifiers... suck. No one makes a good one. If you like your magnifier's glass... you have no standards and probably eat off the mcdonald's dollar menu.
Also did I see that wrong or did you guys kill a camera lens with ejecting brass on the 100m drill? RIP camera.
It's called video editing
All of these times are done when the LPVO follows a red dot. Any time you do something twice, the second time is always more efficient. Swap up the pattern and the time for the red dot would probably increase by 20% over what you’re already getting.
its seems like everyone who runs the sky high unity trend mounts cant hit anything outside of 20 yards
I have tried LPVO, and Red Dot with 4x FTS Magnifiers, and then settled on 3x prismatic optic and an offset RMR. This set up is less weight, offset RMR is easy 2-eyes quick sight for close targets and switch to 3x optic without having to break grip to flip up magnification, just a simple rotation of the rifle. This is on a shorty setup as my intended engagements will be 100 yd or less. So far, this works for me with less weight and the 3x prismatic optic is great with my astigmatism and the RMR is for close “work” so astigmatism is not a concern (put dot “cluster” on center mass…).
Imagine if a magnifier could go from 3-6x with a throw lever
It'd be the size of an elcan
That would be interesting
It would be an LPVO.@@luckyboyyt8582
Just use multiple magnifiers
Elcan needs an upgrade. It's a nice concept but someone needs to modernize it.
This is a big fat example of setting up the eye relief to your lop and lop to your eye relief. Clearly someone brought out their guns that they actively shoot while one brought out his sponsored rifles and accessories but training is the main problem that would need to overcome.
I was kinda thinking the same thing. Wonder if they set their eye relief on full mag when setting up the lpvo's... Also, I'm not familiar with the brand lpvo they were using and no idea the eye relief, exit pupil, etc. My vortex razor 1-6 has super forgiving eye relief and a nice eye box even at full 6x. I love this lpvo so far. I need to run it more to get a better opinion formed, but I'm not faulting these guys for liking their red dots better. I love red dot too.
This was INVALUABLE info.. WELL DONE guys.. fantastic format.. fantastic content.. fantastic production and presentation. You guys ROCK!!!!!!! Taking my LPVO off my rig immediately.. been struggling with this debate myself, but could not articulate or test it the way you did. Invaluable!!! Made my decision clean and easy!!! Job well done!!!!!!!!1
🤙🏻
This is probably the best video you guys have ever put out! Quality entertainment and perspective
Wow really! Damn dude thank you
I personally love an LPVO. Not plural though. Just the PA PlxC. Good eyebox, 17oz, and under 10”. Hated the accufire. Hate most for that matter. My favorite thing about this video is a bunch of people will wanna sell their LPVO’s at a loss now. Haha.
Really interesting to see how many of your points in the end conversation mirror things that Hop brought up in his "What are Red Dot Magnifiers Really For?" video (which came out 11 days ago). Love seeing the different perspective but it's funny how things line up content-wise.
I haven’t seen that vid so 🤷🏼♂️
havent seen the video and Hop hates us so im sure everything we said is wrong
@@Chrisblauwhat makes you say that?
@@SuperAbsolute just a joke dude i dont know if Hop hates us but im sure he does it was a self deprecating joke that didn't land sorry
@@Chrisblauahh makes sense 👍🏽
I use an lpvo with an offset red dot. I think it’s the best of all options. You have an easy time up close with the dot and you get the advantages of the lpvo in longer range.
Agreed. I wanted to go the magnifier route but being left handed it didn’t feel right when I flipped it.
@@rdpillsforall6884 I am not the biggest fan of magnifiers with the dot because it only gives you point of zero and not the benefits of lpvo elevation windage holds
You only use the magnification you need and you should lean towards going less than you need rather than more than what is required. I've been taught that you should have your magnification only where it helps land the shot but where you sacrifice the least amount of FOV, allowing you to take in more information of your surroundings.
Also, dot and 3x micro magnifier has been my go to for a long time. I also use to have a Accufire Tango 8. Great LPVO and great company, but I'm definitely in the magnifier crowd. I like having a dot 80% of the time and I use the magnifier here and there.
Also, you can take it off and not lose a zero. You can let a friend use it too. Only downside is it's 4 different lenses that can get dirty or fucked up.
I was going to say the same thing. Context is important, tactical, target shooting, or hunting?
In 2 gun and black rifle matches I rarely turn my LPVO higher than 3x. 3x seems to be the sweet spot IMO
I have found that I can get nearly identical performance from an lpvo but I cannot say the same for red dots at distance.
That being said it's easier to use a dot (even if times are similar) so i choose a dot for home defense and use an lpvo for everything else.
You guys should do a video with bruiser on this topic since he uses LPVOs quite a lot. I like lpvos that are biased towards distance shooting over ones with simple reticles. It really aint great at anything but i love having 1 gun that can do anything inside 800 yards without being impractically heavy.
PLX-C is best bang for bucks
I chose a Vortex Spitfire x1 prism for my goto rifle. It has an etched dual ring reticle but also lights up (if you have to have color) - perfect for soothing my astigmatism and I don’t miss the magnification under 200yards.
LPVO > dot & magnifier for one simple reason for me.
Astigmatism.
I don't have a terrible case of it, I can still use dots somewhat effectively at certain ranges depending on what type/brand they are (Holosun circle dots seem to bother me the least,) but it gets really annoying seeing the starburst vs looking through an LPVO with its clear etched reticle. Whatever other downsides there are don't matter to me at all because of that one simple reason.
Chris needed to properly setup his lpvo eye relief.
EOTech+Mag all day
"I fucking hate LPVOs, man" started laughing my ass off. Same Chris, same.
they are the worst arent they? legit would almost prefer iron sights
@Chrisblau why do you hate lpvos soo much
@@daytonsmith8910 at 19:30 i go over why i hate them so much
Great video. With that said, I feel like these things always come down to what works for the individual and philosophy of use.
We are all different. This includes our vision. With that said, it is always interesting to hear different points of view.
Dear editor of this video,
I'm digging the ambient spa music in the background. good choice.
Living in Alaska and it has to be the ACOG or LPVO for me for 2 main reasons:
1. Batteries and -40F do not mix
2. Try cleaning fog and snow off of the 4 sets of glass the magnifier combo gives you
If I was back in Kansas I would would likely be red dot + magnifier.
The lens consideration get overlooked ALL the time. LPVO cuts lens maintenance in half, as well as the risk of something breaking. The battery topic is commonly mentioned, but rarely truly considered. Having an etched reticle IS an important consideration in the wild, while not in the controlled environment shooting ranges offer. ALL considered, my ONE go-to option is going to be a 3x microprism with offset red dot. Have not decided if my second choice will continue to be red dot plus magnifier or LPVO +/- offset red do . . . leaning more towards the latter with each passing day.
Magnifiers don’t get zeroed the windage and elevation is to center the dot in the center of the window
You're half right. Yes, the dials are for centering the dot in the magnifier. After you center the dot though, you need to fire a confirmation group, this is to check for any parallax shift, which is normal whenever a magnified optic is introduced.
If the group shifts, you use the same dials, and repeat the zeroing process, this corrects the parallax error. Sometimes you get lucky and no fine tuning is necessary, but sometimes you can flip in the magnifier and see a shift of several inches.
@@dowlingc2 you get parallax shift because your dot is not centered
I would recommend a higher LPVO mount. Your red dot looks to be a 1.93 or higher mount. Try the same with your LPVO and see if you have an easier time with acquisition and speed. It looks like you’re having to sink your head pretty low to get a good sight picture through the tube of the LPVO, I believe a higher mount would really help.
Might just be shouting into the void with this comment since the video is a little older - Chris' point at the 38:00 mark about zeroing a magnifier is technically incorrect. All you're doing with the knobs on the magnifier is centering the dot in the image since that's what we as humans like.
The shift you experienced is likely due to parallax. The T2 is a good dot. It doesn't compare to the Eotech when it comes to parallax shift though. (There are videos out there about this, can't remember who made em though.)
I would assume this is why Jake didn't have an issue, but Chris did. Just a guess though.
All that said, really enjoyed the video! It's always good to get outside the comfort zone haha!
I run LPVO’s a lot and I use the whole spectrum. Off hand plate rack at 50 and I might use 2x or some stages I’ll use 6x instead of 8x because I’m transitioning to different targets ranging from 250-400
LPVO for longer range, Target ID, SFP for red dot bindon aiming even in awkward positions where you're out of the eyebox, depending on model very bright and fast dot (vortex 1-6, leupold, nightforce), always on etched backup sights
Still love em, good for shtf imo
Dot with a 3x is where it's at
My man
100%
Brah, nahh. Block 2 recce is where it’s at. Put an nx8 2.5-20 in a badger comm with an offset AimPoint. It is perfection
Has anyone tried the new Primary Arms Gen2 1x or 3x micro prism?
I’m thinking I might try one for my next build with a 14.5 barrel and 45 degree Magpul Mbus pros for buckup sights.
@@user-mj1vb8jr6jthat would be a great DMR setup but a little to heavy for general use or CQB.
PLX 1-8 LPVO with an RS-10 offset red dot. 16"
Windage and elevation magnifier adjustments are used to center the dot of your optic.
Yeah I heard that and was like…wait lol
This lol he has no idea what he's talking about
I enjoy the jabs they take at each other during these vids. That's a true friendship 😅
Lol
at the very least you should have done 3-4x on lpvo to compare at the 175 obviously x8 is too much for under 200
Yeah, they live in UT & AZ and cant find a use for scopes???
I only have one LPVO so I’m not a huge fan by any means but one thing you guys are forgetting is that in defensive or end of the world scenarios you’re not gonna be shooting at full-size targets you’re going to have very little targets to shoot at. people aren’t just gonna stand out in the open they will most likely be behind cover That’s where an LPVO over a red dot
Exactly, just the size of a target's head at 200 yds is very small and higher magnification would be needed.
@@professionalamateur6169 yep for sure!
Love this review. I have a 5.56 with a 6x lpvo and a .300 blackout with a reflex sight and a 3x magnifier. One for 50 yards and in and the other for reaching out 100 yards plus
It would be interesting to see if having a 1-4 LPVO would have made a difference in regards to having a better eye-box. Additionally a LPVO or Prism scope is great for anyone that has any degree of astigmatism.
I have said this on the channel in the past I have the strongest corrective contact lenses for astigmatism and that is still not enough. I exclusively run red dots as you can tell from the video and the only time I notice starbursting is when I’m not target focused. Just my experience even without the highest lenses the starbursting is a non issue cause I’m target focused 🤷🏻♂️
@@Chrisblau makes sense - thanks for sharing.
@@Quality_Guru at the end of the day also this just for fun right? Like you shoot what you like and that’s cool to right? As long as we are training and having fun it’s all good at the end of the day 👊🏼
@@M4c223c I’m headed in the same direction.
@@ChrisblauI'm 54 and have astigmatism but it's not that bad with contacts or eyeglasses.What sucks is developing macular degeneration in my right eye.Thats a bitch.Don't take good eyesight for granted.Awesome videos.Thanks.
So, no. Magnifiers don't need to be "zeroed." You may need to adjust the magnifier so that the dot appears at the center of the glass. But that has nothing to do with POA or POI. It just relates to where in the glass your dot floats, and most folks (including me) want it centered.
i've had the chance to test most optics, for my choice and my guns, Eotech (or high end red dot) + magnifiers or ACOG's with a piggy back / offset
Depending on distance, magnification choice is partly based on FFP vs SFP. If it’s close enough, it doesn’t matter. The farther it gets, the more having a an accurate BDC or reticle matters. FFP is always consistent across all magnification levels, but SFP is only accurate one a single option (usually full magnification).
Great video.
"Unsuppressed rifles suck"
As the only guy at my range who shoots a suppressed 22 pistol indoors, i felt that in my soul.
Ive got a rifle rated 36 cal can transfering because it was available, and after i move (because god for-fucking-bid i change my address in the fucking year that an eForm4 takes) im also getting a 30 cal can to be a bit more dedicated.
Save the magnified optics for DMR's, a general purpose carbine of any length is going to be way faster with a red dot/holo sight with QD magnifier.
To be fair, both of you should have had a unity mount for your lpvo or a 1.93 height mount, your changing cheek weld and fundamentals. When you were at 175, you should have had the lpvo at 3x, so it would have been apples to apples. Lastly, should have been using the most "red dot" like LPVO's on the market like the vortex razor 1-6 or the kahles 1-6, would have made a big difference.
Or the PLX-C
Or the slx nova
Then they should have compared every LPVO on the market and every red dot and every magnifier and then theyre homeless.
Its a comparison between concepts more than specific models.
@acdrz125 I get what you're saying. However, they used the 2 best red dots on the market against 1 mediocre/ half decent lpvo and one no-name new company scope. LPVO's are designed for different roles. Some lean towards more red dot type rolls, Razor, Kahles, Nova (basically the ones that are screaming daylight bright), etc. Some are designed for DMR type rolls, which can also be half decent up close, the FFP models or ones with complex reticles. The Trijicon he used isn't a bad choice, but it's far from being top in class.
Old guy here, with old guy eyes which work just fine---if you allow me to call time-out so I can get my glasses. So, LPVO is super practical, overall. Assuming the EMP was not accompanied by a mushroom cloud. Reflex sight is by far the easiest and most fun to shoot...inside 100m. Both eyes open, clear sight picture, low weight penalty, fast transitions. Go out past 100m and old eyes seek some magnification. How much depends on how far. Magnifiers are useful. Mandatory if rifle needed for real work. Thanks for the video.
this is exactly the question i have been asking myself. one rifle, i'd go 14.5".. and i want to say LPVO so you can get both 1 and 6x magnification... but i just hate the weight and size the lpvo costs
I get your perspective here but your premise leaves out the entire purpose of a duty rifle with an LPVO. 500m is not bolt gun territory. It should be duty rifle territory, and a 1-6 will let you still be effective at 25m with a true 1x while not compromising your ability to make 1st round hits at 500m+. A bunch of speed drills at
Oh my God, thank you
The trend of people being very tunnel visioned on the intent of the LPVO has been really tiring. It's a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none optic class that has a significantly wider range of applications/capabilities than a red dot + magnifier offers or an MPVO+dot. It's not better than a dot at close ranges nor better than an MPVO at distance, but it can do distance significantly better than a red dot and can do close ranges significantly better than an MPVO+dot can.
I yearn for the day that people stop considering use cases in a vacuum, I would even go as far as to say that the LPVO is probably one of the more sensible choices for a civilian do-it-all rifle if you want to consider scenarios outside of home defense.
To add to my comment below -
I have 5 AR set-ups. Two PLX's 1-8's with an offset RDS, an 8T with Eotech 5x mag, a 4t with an Eotech 5x, and on the last on a 5x prism.
I like shooting them all for different reasons and wanted to get a feel for all different types of optics.
Now if the SHTF I am grabbing my 8T with magnifier. I believe that to be the best dot on the market and that includes everything. I have or had a T2, Eotech EXPS 3-0 and prefer the 8T.
My thought process on the magnification of an lpvo is I like to keep it around a mid power like 3x or 4x because that’s a very much usable magnification at close range and if there’s a bad guy at a distance where I would need to go full power say 8x in my case I’ll most likely have time to change to that magnification if that makes since
Genuinely surprised neither of you considered a prismatic on either your 1 gun or on either of your 2 gun set-up. I greatly prefer the acog 3.5x35 with a red dot offset. Best of both worlds and quickest of all when going between the 2.
I was thinking the same thing. The TA11 has great eye relief. If I could only have one optic it would be a TA11.
This is the way. I ditched my LPVO for a TA31 and off set red dot and its so much better in terms of weight savings and having a simplified system is nice
TA11 with piggyback RMR is king
Man I feel the same way about LPVO’s . Got a nx8 a couple years ago and it’s got maybe 500 rounds on it. So I bought a eotech 1-10 a few months ago to try on something else and it maybe has 50 rounds. To be fair I don’t really shoot the guns that they’re on but man I WANT to love them. I just don’t. The damn thing kept fogging on me the other night when I tried to use it for drills on a foggy night. My dots didn’t do that and they were in the same temperature change. Drove me insane
A LPVO with a good eye box is clutch. It’s always been my opinion that a LPVO equipped rifle is a jack of all trades master of none. The ability to use a reticle at mid/longer range with the sacrifice of a little weight and speed is nice instead of hovering a dot and using Kentucky windage. And if you put a RMR on top of the rings and learn your holds it’s a good height for passive aiming for close work through tubes. Not optimal but it does work.
Your not zeroing the magnifier- your just putting the dot in the center of the glass.
ACOG/RMR master race checking in.
I thought the windage and elevation knobs on the magnifiers were just to center the reticle in the glass. Far as I know you only actually zero the red dot itself. Sweet vid either way guys. Love the one shot drills. Get better and save ammo at the same time…genius!
I'll never understand people that think it's either 1x or max power and nothing in-between.
SWFA 1-4x24 etched reticle at one power I use the lit reticle like a red dot. Then at longer distances the Milquad reticle is AWSOME
Here's my thought process, you're either building a firearm for range use or self protection. For range use, the LPVO is nearly useless. However, depending on where you live the extra magnification may be more necessary for positive identification and not shooting at steel targets. Then again, having a short upper, and a precision oriented upper may make the most sense.
I have a lpvo on my home defense rifle. Not because I need magnification but because I can see the reticle and target clearly through it without my glasses. I think because it's not truly 1x it is similar to my eyeglass lens maybe.
Some of us have ranges beyond 25 yards too that's a really dumb take. They both are valid all the time always
@@pappasmurf243 You missed the point. I was responding to their reasoning that an LPVO is useless for them on a range rifle, and it is because Chris himself said that he never shoots past 100 yards. The point I was making is, if you are building a rifle for defensive reasons, then it makes sense to have an LPVO because you can't assume that it would only ever be used at close range. Personally, I think having one with an LPVO is a great option regardless of the range distance because you can train with a reduced size target and take advantage of extra magnification. (Assuming the optic is setup correctly so you don't have to search for the eye box).
@@noncompliant209cali I think that's a great reason, especially because its a defensive weapon and not just a range toy, with no life threatening consequences if you can't hit the target.
LPVO's ruined the magnifier+RDS combo for me. I really like the fact that I don't have to wear glasses to see clearly with an LPVO (-1.5 each eye).
Climate also plays a part. Watching someone try to get water off of their RDS, and their magnifier while in the rain...definitely a reminder that you have to deal with even more surfaces that can collect dust+water.
For my two rifles:
16” LWRCi M6IC DI with Atibal 1-10 LPVO
13.9” P&W Aero/BA on a PSA Turkey Day lower w/Elfmann with EOTech EXPS3-0 & 3x magnifier
For EMP I have a 1x Prism.
No matter what anyone says the LPVO isn't a do it all optic and neither is a red dot. Each one has its weakness and strengths. For hunting taking longer shots I'd want an LPVO. For flat range CQB high speed stuff of course you'd want a red dot.
I was an lpvo hater. but I have to say, once I decided to try one I’m a fan. On the flat range I’m just as fast with the lpvo as I am with a red dot. But when you start to mix in weird shooting position then the red dot is a little faster. But with any long range shooting thrown in the mix the lpvo is the most comfortable and consistent for breaking accurate shots. Over all I think an lpvo is a good pice to have, it makes a lot of sense on a do it all rifle.
Great video you guys! Personally don’t agree with the always at 1x or full mag. A while back I heard of folks running an lpvo at 3-4X with an offset red dot and this has become my favorite set up. The truth is, everybody’s different, and there’s no absolute “this optic setup is the best”. Run similar tests to this run whatever you shoot the best with.
Dots are never crisp for me. Always slightly elongated and fuzzy. Fine for a pistol but I’d prefer better for a rifle. Became an LPVO vs Prism debate for me and I liked the versatility of the LPVO compared to the Prisim.
The 1x prisim + magnifier is also technically an option but I didn’t like having that many layers of glass for long range shooting and it’s just generally kinda jank because you don’t get the red dot pros with a 1x prism.
I got a 1x prism from Atibal and they said I couldn’t put a magnifier behind their prism.
I have astigmatism and red dots starburst. EOTech holographic is fuzzy when I focus on the reticle but clears when I focus on the target .
I'm with you. I can hit easily with reflex sights at pistol ranges even with the starbursting but at longer ranges on rifles dots get annoying as hell.
I like how clear prisms are but the versatility of the LPVO wins out since there usually isn't a huge weight difference in play.
@@J.Young808 idk about the atibal. I know the primary arms ones you can put a magnifier behind
Razor 1-6 in a badger ordnance 1.7 or 1.93 mount will feel about 98% red dot.
For the magnification debate I’d say it depends on what type of LPVO you have. For example, if I had a SFP 1-4x, I’d agree that you’d basically use it at either 1 or 4. However, if I have a FFP 1-10x, I can use it out to decent range and use my reticle at any magnification, so my magnification setting would really depend on PID and how much FOV I need.
For me the key to using the LPVO up close was not looking at the target through the scope. Just look for the dot. For this you need a day bright dot. Occlude the front of the scope with some tape to get a feel for it. Then once you try a few mags up close remove the tape over the front of the scope. It works fast. 5-10 yards make sure to aim a little high. Red dots are still faster up close by themselves but are not as handy when you want to hit smaller targets at 300-400 yards. Still possible but you can confirm your hits with 4x and make corrections easier. Range estimation, BDC, observation. I own both and would not feel at a disadvantage with either.
*** its not zeroing the magnifier, its just centering the dot. both the dot and target image would be offset in the same directions so you would still impact the dot if it was off center. centering just makes it match your normal eye position so you dont need to adjust your head to get a 'centered' sight picture
👊🏼👊🏼
Next optic video: 3-5x Prism vs LPVO/RDS+Mag?
my go to, red dot only. No magnifier at all. There is no target I would engage with my AR past like 250 or 300.
I went through so many lvpo’s. Vortex, Nightforce; leupold. They were cool to hold and cool when you think about it. Red dots are just more fun to shoot and alot easier to shoot well. I ended going trijicon 1.5x mini and it’s go the red dot eye relief, speed, weight, and when I want to shoot out further it gives me options without having to throw on a magnifier. Perfect piece finally, after 21 yesrs
I gotta be honest, but I don't feel that this was a great comparison. Both systems have strengths and weaknesses. I appreciate the work put into it, but I think there are a few points that should be made.
1 - The ranges and testing was pretty much all within the capability of an un-magnified optic. This almost exclusively plays in the favor of the reddot's aforementioned strengths, while displaying none of the strengths of the lpvo.
2 - If you're struggling to find the eyebox, your setup is wrong. With proper adjustment for cheekweld and eyerelief, you shouldn't have to be looking for anything. I have a 1-6, and after a couple days of dryfire practice and adjustment, I could bring that thing up and it's there. No searching for anything. No moving my head in or out. It's there, and just as fast as my microdot. Magnified or not.
3 - .....I forgot what else I was going to say.
Anyway, I appreciate the video, but I feel like the comparison could have been done in a manner that more accurately demonstrates the strengths and limitations of each system.
Haven't yet been able to love THE LPVO.... I ALWAYS GO BACK TO MY TRUSTY EOTECH
Anyone else notice the tactical spider chillin on the magnifier at 34:01.....just throw the whole gun away 😂
Lol
Thanks for the optics reviews guys.
On what Chris said @2:19 (Multiple $700 optics).
I can't be dropping dough like that. I'm looking for cheap, but will work for, most likely, 200yrd max paper punching. I like to be able to see my hits well though.
You don’t zero magnifiers. You center them to avoid parallax.
you dont need any magnification on a 556 rifle with a 11.5 barrel because after 300 meters your bullets probably keyholing and lost all stability unless your using some seriously hot ammo
I am essentially the opposite in my preferences: my intermediate cartridge rifles are all under either an LPVO or ACOG & Offset dot. I have tried dot & magnifier setups and never found them better at anything for me. The ability to remove the magnifier is the only piece that does not make that statement an absolute. Ignoring that, the ACOG/Offset is lighter, same speed for me, and offers so much better usability at distance. The LPVO is about the same weight, maybe a little heavier or lighter depending upon the specific option selected, and also is the same speed for me, and once again is so much more usable at distance. That same speed item does rely upon having a good reticle for up close use allowing for target bracketing. Being able to remove the magnifier does make that dynamic a little different, largely by dramatically reducing weight. But I do not find them faster because ever since I started training rifle shooting from the standing more and using gas guns, I have always been shooting with these setups. I do dry fire training and all that with these setups. So I don't have to fish around for eye box on 1x-4x standing anymore. If I am going to push a LPVO above 4x, I still need stabilization for that to be effective. The other major thing that scopes provide is a better precision ceiling if you are willing to trade time for it. If you are blasting as soon as the sights are on target, then this doesn't apply. But if you are shooting a lower percentage target or are just trying to keep a tighter group without completely ignoring time, scopes are leagues better than a red dot and magnifier. Obviously scopes do take more time to get used to and good with, however I feel that this tradeoff is absolutely worth it.
One will never be better than the other, theyre just different as Bruiser would always say. Lpvo will never be as quick as a dot(movement, transitions, odd positions, etc) and dot/mag will never be as fast or precise past 300yards. Lpvos can definitely be quick up close with practice but the non-existant eye box of a red dot will always make transitions faster, especially on wide ones but with training the eyebox of a scope will almost be a non-issue with proper stock and cheek weld with a proper shooter. I think bringing the alpha tarac into play with the dot/mag combo would be an interesting test too in a future vid.
34:01 spider is just chilling out on the magnifier
I think unless your just building for fun or you have the money to have one of all genres your optic and build choice depends on METT-TC. I live in rural Texas. My go to is a 11.5” with a 1-8x. I might have to have some urban combat then move to woodland hunting or patrol ops. I have offset irons, lpvo, and a light. At work I carry a 16” with aimpoint pro and back up sights and a light.
for the magnification question, the consideration changes based on whether it's a FFP or SFP. your holds will change if it's a SFP, so knowing all the holds at the different levels will be a pain. but for a FFP, it'll keep the holds the same. so, do whatever level of mag you want
@1911Syndicate1 no.