I think Tolkien, being an older man who had lived through two world wars and rapid industrialization, viewed the idea of immortality as more of a curse. There were likely times he envied people who had died before witnessing what he had seen.
Speaking of him being an older man, I realized watching this that the wisdom of age is a major component of Aragorn's kingly attributes. To be a wise old man, but as capable as the finest warrior--ah! That would feel kingly indeed.
We live in a finite world. Every thing we have, know, and do is limited. Yet immortality is unlimited, and would surpass everything in this reality. If you were to live forever, you would watch as everything you know and love fades away. You would not be able to experience the value of making every moment last because you would no longer be able to internalize that limitedness. For Tolkien, and me, that speaks to the revelation that we are called to inhabit an Eternal realm, that of Heaven, where God invites us into His Kingdom where we may come to experience love with no bounds. Only then we are immortal, and it can only be so in a similarly immortal Kingdom
I like your perspective, but Tolkien had already written at least one story before his participation in WW1. I think it was the story of Turin. But you may be right, after all, he was changing and expanding his stories of ME pretty much up until his death. So it’s possible that he came up with “the doom of the elves” later - either before or after WW2, when he would have been older.
Dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten. Also the fate of the Tuatha de Danaan; magical beings from Irish myth, who faded to become the fairy folk, the mound dwelling Sidhe, following the arrival of humans. They also originally came out of the west.
I was thinking the same, and thinking that they and their "darker" more outré counterparts, the Fomorians, dwindle further to become the brownies and pixies and red caps and goblins of later ages.
This, I did not know! The only story based off of Celtic myth that I have read in detail is the Prydain chronicles, and they were loosely based off of Welsh. I have read Dennis McKiernan, whose faerie folk seem more complete, in both explanations and Celtic-ness, but both authors limit their use of non-Irish names. When D. McKiernan does use one, it is often completely detached from its roots and explanation.
@@BrettHarvey-u6c I knew he used myth, yes. Which myth from where I never learned. I actually never wanted to learn, now that I think on it. I am not against learning this, but given how well the world is written, it was unnecessary, and it didn't cross my mind.
The final ship from middle earth to the Undying Lands always left me with this incredible heaviness for the loss of magic and wonder in the world. Its like the cancer with its slow progression and then the death knell of magic in the world. It feels like the transition from childhood to adulthood, and from the sense of magic and belief in the mystery towards practicality and necessity. It really encapsulates the progression so incredibly well that very few literary moments have ever made my heart ache quite like it.
As I understand it, as well, the Eldar's lifespan was that of the world, so when the end comes (as it inevitably will), they too will die. And whether there's anything after that, they don't know, but it doesn't sound like it. I remember one writer in the days of Web 1.0 saying they were like passengers on a sinking ocean liner, wondering why the humans were always trying to get out of the lifeboats and back onto the sinking ship.
The elves will be reborn again when the Second song of the Ainur begins and they will join along with Men in crafting a song that will be greater than the 1st.
The elves don't exactly know what their role will be after the remaking of Arda, but I don't think it's stated anywhere they will die permanently after singing in the second song of creation alongside Men. Galadriel even says to Treebeard that when the Spring of the world arrives (so, when it's remade free of imperfections) that they will meet again.
@@codeisawesome369 Quite the opposite, it's very flawed. There's nothing anywhere that says elves stop existing when the world dies. The comments below yours explain it well.
They were told by Maia, literal angels, that after the end of the world they would exist on, and help the angels and God himself to create something better.
I understand elves as not merely having a doom ("fate" or "destiny") but as being especially bound to their doom, generally bound to the melody of their song. They are fateful people. For example, oaths have an extremely powerful hold on them, and in turn their oaths can change the course of history and the shape of the world. The fact that men do not know their own fate liberates them to choose their own bindings. Do they make the right choices? Are they on the right track? Nobody will know until the great song, time, ends.
It's funny that Galadriel told a Hobbit - of all people - that the Elves of Middle-earth will _dwindle_ to a "rustic folk of dell and cave". I am sure that Frodo was very happy to hear her high opinion about his people's' way of life 😀
@@anni.68 Well, I don't disagree that perfection isn't great in fiction writing, but A. The Elves are secondary characters, and B. to Frodo it isn't fiction, it's real life. The reader may find the Elves unimpressive, but Frodo certainly doesn't.
@@anni.68 That's probably why the elves are not the main characters. The only elf that actually joins the main characters is a rather inexperienced one. Legolas is good with a bow, but Aragorn uses more magic than Legolas does and he really takes more of a support role, aiding Aragorn in his part of the quest rather than dominating the main objective.
@@anni.68I don't know, I always found myself more interested in the elves than anything in Tolkien's world, even as a child my hero was Legolas from the movies, admittedly, because he was cool to me and nothing more then. But to the point, I find their way of life and fate to be fascinating, the way they live in harmony with the world, the way they master whatever craft they seek due to their agelessness, the way they selflessly taught another race as best they could knowing full well they would have to leave the world completely to them, the way memories never really fade to them, which adds that sense of melancholy to their existence to where loss and happiness is always felt as it happened yesterday yet pain is always more overwhelming, both to them and us. So I don't find them perfect per say, as their physical abilities as warriors, healers or craftsmen are mostly a by-product of "infinite time", their mental and spiritual struggles add so much to them. Can you imagine mourning the loss of a mortal lover throughout all your unending life to the point where you can't even imagine trying to begin a new? Their flaws have always been more spiritual than Man's, their struggle to adapt due to their unchanging nature. In short, I found the way they were written to be beautiful.
Ah, that must have norse origins because that is precisely what the word "dom" means in Swedish today ("dom" being a judgement passed by a judge, "domstol" is a court of law). Interesting!
It means home in serbian and domus is home in latin...you can look at it that way..like a final destination after a full circle, idk....Tolkien liked to twist existinf words a little bit, so....maybe...
"For it is the doom of Men that they forget." - Merlin, Excalibur. Much like the Elves, Merlin grows tired. "There are other worlds Arthur, this one is done with me." But he ends up trapped within the heart of the earth. To forget, and not carry the weariness of the memory of the ages. Arthur was blessed to not know the sins of his father. But so too can as Merlin said forget the good moments, moments to look back on and be proud of. A blessing and a curse.
I think something that also gets missed (especially in the films) is the fact the Elves are, in addition to being long-lived keepers of history and wisdom, also very much creatures of the present moment. Their attitudes in the books when dealing with mortals are merriment and bemusement. They sing nonsense songs in addition to historical ballads, go for star-gazing parties, and feast and drink with the best of them. They are tied to the world and delight in it, with small and grand expressions. It's only when they lose that enjoyment that they decide to go to the Undying Lands, which as Robert pointed out suit their unchanging nature. What I don't like to think about the Doom of Elves, is what happens to them when the world (of which the Undying Lands are still part) meets its doom.
@@raymondcoventry1221 Remember his religious faith influenced his writing and that comes with the implication everyone has both souls and personal responsibility for there own actions.
@@Poldovico Its mostly that people associate Dwarves with strength and drinking while associating Elves with pretty and dainty things. Symbolically both outcomes make sense depending on how one portrays elves.
I don’t think Feanor would dare show his face to those Teleri elves who remember the kin-slaying. To them it’s like it happened yesterday. He’s better off in the Halls of Mandos until the end of time.
One thing else about the dooms, as you mentioned elsewhere, is that Morgoth is in Arda yet, invested in its being, even if his consciousness has been cast into the abyss. So elves have to live with that as long as Arda endures as it does, but the doom of Man is such that Man is pulled free of that when he dies. I.E. allegorically, Man has salvation from corruption before corruption itself is ended. That, more than anything, is probably what the elves envied.
In all their grace, knowledge, might and power, and even arrogance, the elves are perhaps the saddest creatures in middle earth. That makes me love Rivendell in the movies so much. In all its beauty and splendor, Rivendell in fall is such a beautiful embodiment of the melancholy that lies at the heart of the elves.
I first encountered this idea of doomed immortality when a couple decades ago reading Anne Rice's vampire chronicles. I have to admit as a young person the idea of immortality being a curse was completely lost on me. Learning more about Tolkein's ideas now that I'm in midlife, it makes a lot more sense.
I often think about the movie "Death Becomes Her". Women who drink a potion to live forever, but if someone shotguns you in the chest then you have to live foerever with that gaping hole. Not such a thrilling idea after. Immortality on a mortal earth would be terrible.
So poetic, beautiful and sad, the Elves first awoke in Middle Earth, it is their home also and they love it. And yet, they have to leave it behind at some point or fade.
Massive thanks for recommending letter 131. I paused this video for an hour to devour it. It’s awesome to see the overall scope and sweep of Tolkien’s legendarium summarized by the man himself in such a way that the themes, through-limes, and purpose are clear
@fudgepacker2858 osha is a government organization that regulates safety in a work environment, there's a lot of video compilations of examples if you look for them.
Awkward looks in the halls of the Valar knowing you are only there because Elrond doesn't belive in handrails and that asshole glorfaenor never cleans up his banana peals
For what it's worth, the word "doom" literally means judgment. That is why the day of judgment is called doomsday. Interestingly, Tolkien, philologist that he was, gives his readers a lesson about this during the council of Elrond, when he has Elrond ask "What shall we do with the Ring, the least of rings, the trifle that Sauron fancies? That is the doom that we must deem." Deem, to judge, is simply the verb-form of doom; Elrond is just saying, in effect, 'this is the judgment we must judge.' So the doom of the elves is just the judgment of the elves, i.e., the law or rule that applies to them, and the doom of men is simply the law or rule that applies to men.
What of the orcs? Are they not twisted corrupted elves ? Do they get to go to the undying lands after they die ? So many questions so many mysteries ❤ Love the video !! X
I’m going to attempt an answer based on the Dwarves and Tolkien’s Catholic faith here: When Aulë made the Dwarves, they had no animating essence. It was not until the moment that Eru adopted the Dwarves that they had souls. As Eru’s adopted children, their souls are likely eternal, just as the other Children of Ilúvatar (Men and Elves) have eternal souls. Being descendants of Men and Elves, I would imagine that the Orcs, Goblins, and Uruk-hai all have immortal souls. Just as the Catholic faith teaches that no soul is predestined to damnation and annihilation, I would imagine Tolkien intended for the “dark Children” to have opportunities for salvation.
Lucky for you friend, Christ shows us the way and in the Kingdom of Heaven you could have the opportunity to consider the above preponderance after 1,000 years of personal consciousness. : )
This kinda puts a new perspective on Arwen's decision to give up her immortality. On one hand, it's incredibly sad that she will probably never be able to see her father, mother, or brothers again. On the other, it must also feel a bit freeing.
I need to read these letters for myself. They're kind of the 'cut content' of his works and these videos are like if someone made a mod to restore these assets into the game.
Robert, it might have been worthwhile introducing the great quote from Aragorn to Arwen in the appendices, based on his near-death foresight granted by Eru: "Lo, we are not bound to the circles of the world." This suggests some spiritual existence, beyond earthly limits - matter and time. I think it gives Aragorn great hope - Arwen is not so sure at that point, but follows, in time. A beautiful piece of writing.
I was going to comment that it would seem a better symmetry if the Elves came from beyond the world at first and then entered into it and were forever bound to it, while Men came from within the world and were doomed to be cast out of it into the beyond, but then it struck me that that first role is already taken by another race of Tolkien's legendarium, the Ainur, at least those like the Valar and Maiar who chose to enter into Ea. So we've got a nice symmetry of three races there: those Ainur who are from beyond the world but enter into it forever; the Elves who are born of the world and can never leave it; and the Men who are born of the world and then leave it again (I would imagine to the Timeless Halls of Eru Illuvatar, where the Ainur dwelt before Ea). It does make me wonder, as another commenter said, about the Dwarves' place in all this, though.
Tolkien didn't finish fleshing out much of his legendarium. The origins of the Orcs and Dragons are especially obscure, given the problem that Melkor could not have created them as Aulë created the dwarves, since Eru would never have given them souls and Melkor couldn't do that himself. I suspect Tolkien only included dwarves at all because he put them in the children's fable called The Hobbit (in which he'd casually included a few elements of the legendarium, such as Elves and some songs) and he needed a backstory for them when his publishers persuaded him to write The Lord of the Rings, which he decided was set in a much later era of the legendarium. So their role in the stories of the First Age is pretty minimal, and it seems he never got around to explaining what happens to them after they die. Or perhaps he intentionally left it vague as a kind of divine mystery. We can ask similar questions of the Ents, of whom we know even less. One thing we can say though is that the dwarves believed the Dwarf-fathers, the seven originally created by Aulë, reincarnated from time to time, hence the seven kings of the Longbeards named Durin were all supposedly reincarnations of Durin the Deathless, ancestor of all the Longbeards. Whether they were correct in this belief isn't stated.
@@cshairydude That would fit nicely, aesthetically, with the rest of the races' fates, for the Dwarves to have souls bound to the world like Elves, but recycled over and over again instead of continuous and undying. I was thinking that the natural-seeming place for a fourth race in the overall symmetry would be some kind of underside of the cycle loosely implied, where you've got those born outside and come in, those born in and staying in, those born in and escaping out, and then the missing piece would be... ...those born out and staying out I guess, although now that I think about that it seems that the Ainur who never entered Ea actually fill that role, which is a nice kind of symmetry itself (two branches of Ainur, both born outside but only one entered within; two races of Children of Iluvatar, both born within but only one to ever leave). That's not where this thought was going when I started it, but I guess it kinda works out even better. Maybe Dwarves go in and out and in and out as they reincarnate?
Tolkien was thinking in nordic elves, the ones that you know that are tiny people. He bound their strengh to Earth’s strengh, so as times goes by Earth and elve’s strengh is slowly fading away. So, they are going to diminish unless they leave middle earth’s shores and move to Valinor, the elvish paradise, the place in which they will rest after helping men to inhabit middle earth until the Dagor Dagorath. The thing was to explain why nordic elves are tiny people, and this is a very poetic way to explain it. So the tiny elves are the ones who refused to leave middle earth, that means our world.
What about an elf that doen't care if he gets killed, appearing before Mandos over and over again, always with some bad explanation. And trying to make it sound like it wasn't his fault somehow. But every time he gets sent back, he just does something foolhardy again cause he knows he can't really die.
I would like to ask, what happens to the orcs and goblins after death ? They were first corrupted elves, so do their souls also travel to the Halls of Mandos ?
tolkien seems like a trully remarkable man, he is one of the people in time that i would have loved to have a sit down and pick his brain if i could choose historic characters from the past.
Thanks for this good Sir. An explanation ( of the phrase "Doom of the Elves") I did not realize I was missing or in fact, I needed. I have Tolkien's "Letters" and in honesty, have only perused them when discovering a topic in which particular ones have been mentioned. For this, I'm especially thankful for you bringing "Letter 131" to my attention. I shall study it forthwith. As for The "Doom of Men" it's a true wonder and revelation that we, being its subjects, do not fully understand. I personally feel a kindred spirit to Tolkien's belief there is much to what we are beyond this Mortal coil. It will be an exciting and hopefully rewarding journey we commence with our "Part - 2". It also gives us reasoning to make our short time here as joyful and loving as we can, for we only get one ride on this roller coaster... :)
Slowly fading in order to make room for humanity is in some ways a far sadder fate than dying in battle or something. Its also interesting seeing this idea of immortality getting old after a while. A few video games I've played have toyed with this concept to varying degrees. It's nice to become aware of the more subtle Tolkien influences in the wider fantasy canon
Thanks for this, I had draw the wrong conclusion by missing the reincarnation aspect, I had mus-interpreted it as meaning they died and became one with the world.
When I first read TLoTR and the Silmarillion as a kid, I thought of the elves as not having souls of their own. They were animated by the Earth itself, like a part or feature of the Earth, whereas Humans had an actual soul, like a divine spark akin to Illuvitar's I also never thought about it, but its funny how eleves and men both sort of envy eachother's fates
The Doom of Man, which also, according to Tolkien, applies to Hobbits, who are a branch of humanity, though why or how they became short and hairy-footed littlefolk isn't said, and the Druedain, similar, no known reason they branched off, is actually kind of well-explained. The souls of Men go to the Timeless Halls with Eru, at least according to the Eldar and the Faithful (eventually the Dunedain). Elves 'die' when Arda does, but Men survive for the new universe, because their souls are removed. Elves possess estel, though, faith that Eru, being a all loving, all good, and totally benevolent being (he is, according to Tolkien, the Abrahamic God, just in this fictional universe, but, as such possesses the same general traits) will restore the elves (and dwarves believe will restore the dwarves) to rebuild the world as a peaceful place, free of evil, for all of Eru Illuvater's children. Afterall, the fea they've been given is imperishable. How could a loving god just curse them to oblivion when he's supposed to love them so much?
There is an indie movie called 'The Man From Earth' which explores the idea of a single human (male) who reached the age of 30 something and stopped ageing for reasons he can't explain. He can possibly be killed by weapon or disease but he cannot die from the process of ageing so in a manner of speaking he can be described as an immortal (sort of). He has lived over 10,000 years and has adapted with the passing ages of humankind and has even survived deadly diseases in the past (like the plague). It is a movie that explores the gifts and perils of immortality as a 'mortal' human living through many ages and seeing everything shifting before him. Sorry to give away a small spoiler on the movie, but just like the Numenoreans there are a few men in the movie who get jealous of the "immortal" man and are angry that he alone is given the "gift" of immortality because they can't come to terms with their own mortality. The movie is not perfect in any way (although it has a cult following and an 8 plus rating on IMDB) but it does allow us to imagine the possibilities of immortality and reflect on the idea of our own mortality and how valuable it is to us. Things have more value when we know they will perish one day or else we tend to take things for granted (whether that is with people or objects). The movie is worth watching even if you may not agree with its central philosophy or direction. I personally liked the movie. It is a story written by someone who has previously worked with Star Trek episodes so it does fit into the sci-fi genre. I was reminded of the movie after watching this video.
It makes me wonder how the world would have proceeded in Morgoth had not been involved. The Valar had their shining city between the lamps and I could see Elves and Humans building their cities on the shores of the lakes. But would the elves have just faded or would they have had to go to Almaren...
If not for the undying lands this would have been cruel and harrowing. It's thoughtful of Tolkein/Eru that the Elves always had a get out clause for when the Earth became unsuitable for them.
You also have to ask if the Numenorians had some how succeeded in gaining immortality, How long before they would be begging for a death that would never come. Sure the first 1000 years would be fun, but the next less so and the next even less so. Until every waking hour is torture of endless crushing boredom.
Whenever I see someone who thinks immortality would be a curse, it just tells me that they're missing something internally, the kind of overflowing inner peace and joy that could fill eternity, replaced instead with a bottomless hole that even eternity could not fill. Having felt both ways at different times in life, it makes me sad to think some people find that inner void so normal that that's what they expect of immortality, rather than it giving time enough to heal from that kind of thing and flourish forever.
@@Pfhorrest If every good things around you are also eternal then maybe that's good that's where the idea of heaven comes from but if you're the only one to stay forever and everything changes then you probably going to wish for death in a few hundred years.
But is that true after Eru Iluvatar smacked down Numenor, made Arda into a globe, and moved Aman beyond the reach of Men? We don't really know what Eru Iluvatar does with Himself in His halls outside of time and space. But we know that He has further plans, which even the Ainur know little about. Is He creating more worlds other than Arda? Has He, perhaps, strongly encouraged the Elves to leave Middle-earth because the same task awaits them on newer worlds?
We must remember that Melkor had poisoned the world, corrupting its intended purity, making it toxic to the Elves in the long term, to spite Iluvatar. Only in Valinor do the Valar maintain this original purity of creation, thus now the only lifeboat for the Elves to live out the life of the universe without suffering. Humanity, you could say, was tailor-made to thrive on Earth, now "Morgoth's Ring", with a lifespan short enough where his evil wouldn't corrupt us.
Elves could refuse the summons to the Halls of Mandos and remain in Middle-Earth but they would exist as fading spirits unable to take physical form again; the same fate as those Elves who never made the final journey to Valinor.
One point that I am not clear on is what happens to elves once Arda ends. Do they just stop existing at that point? Do they get to join Eru Iluvatar in the timeless halls? Something else?
Finrod once said (to Andredth) that for Elves death is simply slow footed, and that by being tied to Arda they will perish with it. He saw that Men were thought about with regards to death but nothing has been said of Elves, and that not knowing unsettles them.
What confuses me is that the dwarves believe they are to be an integral part of the rebuilding of the world and finally making it the way the Creator wished, after it is destroyed. If the bittersweet doom of the elves is to be part of Arda forever, what happens to them if Arda is Renewed? I think perhaps that even with the doom of the elves, and Men being 'freed from the cycle' my knowledge of deep-time makes me feel that a few tens of millennia of youth and beauty would be preferable to the fate of those doomed to exist til The End.
I'm still not clear about being "re-embodied." I understood that Glorfindel was an exception, coming back as himself. I thought that other elves would come back as the spirits of infants, rather like reincarnation, with at most vague memories of prior lives. Or are new infant elves, like human infants, completely new spirits?
Glorfindel was the exception in the way that he was allowed to return to middle earth to keep on fighting the darkness. All the elves that return get a new copy of their bodies and return as themselves. For and instance, Finrod Felagund was reimbodied sooner than the other exiled noldor, due the devotion and loyalty he showed to Beren before dying, rejecting the silmaril and honouring his friendship with the house of Barahir.
The catch is, no one knows where humans go once they die. Elves and Maiar know exactly where they'll go after centuries/millennia of living, but humans will die after 80 years, many earlier due to illness, and go - god knows where, but we're supposed to be grateful for it anyway?
Yes, precisely. It is the gift of Eru, to be free of the bonds of the earth. If you don’t understand that, and think the elves have it better, you’re far too materialistic to understand Tolkien
I think the very concept of the soul of the elves is as part of Arda as in the same way the elemnts of nature are. That´s way in the prologue Galadriel says that "The world is changing; i feel it in the water, i feel it in the earth, I smel it in the air" Because her soul is also part of the world.
Am I alone in thinking that it is ironic that men are "blessed" with freedom from the circles of the world, but are the only ones to remain in the world after a time. Which in the absence of elves, further explains why the world is in a state of decay.
The doom of the elves sounds a lot like good ole' nostalgia, it wouldn't be a surprise if this is what inspired Tolkien most when he conceived the race of the elves.
I’ve always thought of the elves as described here, they never age. But Tolkien’s Nature of Middle Earth is making me question that. Tolkien describes extensive calculations for calculating their effective age, which really doesn’t make any sense unless they continue to indeed age. It’s even described at certain ages how they tire and eventually fade. Along those same lines, if being slain is the loss of their body, fading is really the same thing. And yet being slain and fading are treated very differently by Tolkien. One seems temporary, the other permanent. I’d love to hear your thoughts on how this book affects our view on the Elven life cycle. 👍
Elves don't age in the body as Men do. "The Quendian “growth” and “life” may be compared with that of Men, so long as it is remembered that (a) its rate of “expenditure” was far slower than the human, especially after achievement of maturity, and (b) that when the Quendi spoke of their bodies “waning” it did not mean that these became decrepit or that they felt the oncoming of senility or death." (NoMe, 1 XII) & "It might be thought that, since the Eldar do not (as Men deem) grow old in body, they may bring forth children at any time in the ages of their lives. But this is not so." (MR, Laws & Customs)). That is, they don't become aged, wrinkled, in need of a cane etc*. At the point in life where Men might become 'aged', Elves would start fading. *Normally. Some great stress (e.g. Gwindor's captivity by Morgoth), may cause them to appear old like Men.
But can‘t elves just make themselves mortal? Arwen did that somehow. Was she then removed from the circles of the world? And if so, why didn’t other elves do as she did, to escape the circles?
Good questions. We actually know of an elf who became mortal by choice, Elros, Elronds brother and first king of Numenor. But it seems to be always a special case. For Elros it was his parents, human and elf. This allowed him to chose which to become, since he couldnt be both. Maybe it was the same with Arwen, she is, after all, of the same bloodline. Or maybe she could chose, because of her marriage to Aragon, when they tied their fates together and spoke their vows. Such things do carry power in Tolkiens world.
@@Daniel-rd6st Elros was not an Elf. He was a half-elf who the gift of Men. Earendil and Elwing were also half-elves. By the judgement of Manwe, anyone with any mortal blood is mortal, unless Manwe specifically grants other doom. Other doom was granted to Earendil, Elwing, Elros, Elrond and Elrond's children. The only Elf allowed to change fate was Luthien, and Tolkien says she was an absolute exception.
Arwen was not an elf, she was a half-elf who was specifically granted a chopice. The only elf allowed to 'become mortal', in a direct act of God, was Luthien, and Tolkien notes her as an absolute exception.
Thats basically what i wrote, ok i should have phrased it differently, but i said that the parents of Elros were elf and human, which kinda implies, that he was half elf half human, which gave him the choice, because he couldnt be both (with the whole different treatment of afterlife stuff going on) 🙂@@Tar-Elenion
Only the half-elves were given that choice. Luthien and Arwen were both “lost” to elves by choosing humanity. Elrond and his sons chose to be elves while his brother Elros chose to be judged as a man. Earendil hesitated and let his wife Elwing choose: she chose to be an elf.
Melkor had spread much of his evil in all of Middle Earth's soil and water. Eating and drinking meant consuming and imbibing some of it. Humans died before that could affect them much. But Elves would gradually turn into wraiths over the centuries. At least, without the protection of the Three Rings. But these failed when the One was destroyed.
How did the ghosts of the slain Elves still reside in the Dead Marshes? It's clear that there were Elven warriors that Frodo saw, how did they not go to the Halls of Mandos?
The physical body is not what goes to the halls of Mandos and these spectres I believe would be more akin to the barrow wights usurping the shadow of the physical body
Elves could refuse the summons. They were known as The Houseless. Some were consumed by grief at their deaths. Others were corrupt in some way (Saeros comes to mind, though he answered the Summons, but Mandos held him a LONG time for what he had done to Turin). The Houseless COULD become so corrupted they would fall prey to Necromancy and be 're-housed' as Barrow-Wights IIRC.
Tolkien explains this with "That was an Age and an Age ago!" said Sam, "the Dead can't really be there. Is that some devilry hatched in the Dead Land?" "Who knows? Smeagol doesn't know," said Gollum. "We tried to touch them, long ago, yes we tried. But bodies to see, not to touch perhaps, precious. Oh yes." Sam shivered, thinking he knew why Gollum had tried to touch them. "Well I never want to see them," he said, "Not never again!" -they were hallucinations caused by Sauron and his ghostly minions. As Frodo says with Faramir, "Seeming so by Sauron's dark arts," to which Faramir says "No for his works fill the heart with loathing but mine was consumed by pity" [talking about seeing the dead body of his borther Boromir]. In reality, the Elves' bodies faded and their spirits passed, but probably were unable to come back to Earth due to Mandos fearing corruption by Sauron or something.
And the difference between his tall and mighty elves, and the small, elusive elves of "real" folklore. People today forget, but before Tolkien the entire concept of elves was of little magical creatures akin to how we still think of gnomes (the Noldor are even *called* Gnomes in his earlier drafts!), brownies, fairies, and of course dwarves. The big novelty of his worldbuilding was that once upon a time, ages and ages past, the world was dominated by large, powerful, magical folk, whose time then passed, and who faded, as the age of men dawned and those once-mighty dwindled into "dell and cave".
Same! It explains how elves became the smaller impish beings we read about in fairy tales, who hide from humans and spend their time playing in forests etc. I’m guessing this was the fate of the Silvan elves from Mirkwood for instance.
Good! There's a lot very modern about Tolkien; especially how the main heroes of the tale aren't kings or warriors or wizards, but common folk resistant to the corrupting spell of power. I also like that the Witch-King could be slain by no man, so instead he was slain by a hobbit and a woman. And Ungoliant, the spider from outer space, could have come straight from pulp SF.
It's interesting that Tolkein's view of human mortality in his fantasy world is seen as a gift. In Catholic theology, death is a byproduct of original sin. It's a curse born of original sin.
In Catholic theology, the Fall--a motif Tolkien admitted to be primary to his mythology, being almost everywhere in it and on many different levels (beginning with Melkor before anything else was made)--is, likewise, a kind of separation of creature from creator; but regardless, is still viewed as being allowed only so that it can be harnessed entirely for the Good (even as Melkor's greatest attempts at causing discord in the Music were only used by Eru as his "instrument in bringing about greater devisings" in its themes than would have otherwise been). The "curse" of death then, from the perspective of Tolkien's 7th Age (Nature of Middle Earth) which he aligns with the birth of Christ, is seen rather, as the greatest possible gift and redefines death as the process that brings about an end to any such separation. So really, Tolkien's own theological perspective--as a Catholic--is that "death's curse" is being experienced by us now, and in varying degrees, until "all of the Children of Illuvatar join with the Ainur in the final Music" when all will be played aright and each will be given, personally, the fullness of the Flame Imperishable, enabling each to comprehend the meaning of each other's unique part in the Music, and thus also Illuvatar Himself, the Composer, Conductor, and Sound. Tolkien's "..and he will then give to each the Flame Imperishable, being well pleased..," is his Catholic "..and God shall be All in All." Theology calls it the Eschaton, common speech calls it the Final Judgement, Tolkien calls it the end of the final battle or the "Dagor Dagorath."
@@kandlefuhriman7515 Catholic theology is all over the place, utterly wrong. Everything that's happened on earth, for billions of years, is totally unplanned, not thought out in advance, and the 'gods' (including YHVH) are just playing catch-up, trying to navigate through an utter mess. There's no moral to it whatsoever, as Solomon told us, everything is futile. He went somewhat mad eventually, once he realised how fucked up EVERYTHING is. Let's just hope that death is total death, who in their right mind wants to be cursed with resurrection and eternal life, really, no one I ask wants it.
Very well done, Robert. I've met many people who assume the Elves are immortal in the world and then when the world ends Iluvatar will call them back. I don't subscribe to that theory. I believe Elves exist as long as the world exists, and when it finally perishes, then so will the Elves. The fate (or doom) of Men is different, and it is treated as a gift, by Iluvatar.
I personally doubt that. I think the reason that the final fate of the Elves is a mystery is the same reason the final fate of Men (ie, they're fate after death) is a mystery. The Legendarium just isn't about the afterlife, that doesn't mean Elves don't have one.
The fate of Elves beyond the end of the world is one of those things that Tolkien didn't nail down - one of those things where some say one thing and some another, and only Illuvatar, and perhaps Manwe, Mandos, or Morgoth knows.
@@rmsgreyI doubt that any save Iluvatar knows for sure. Morgoth certainly doesn't know - for if he did he would have certainly tried to use that information to corrupt the Elves (further)
Tolkien was doing his best to make some sense of death and to make the immortality of the elves unattractive, but the best he could do was to point to some vague afterlife for men in the company of Eru. It doesn't really work, though. The eternal youth of the elves and their immunity from disease still seems like the better deal. 😊
Tolkien did state that Mortal Men's spirits after residing in the Halls of Mandos for an unknown amount of time do eventually leave the circles of Arda and come to live in the Timeless Halls with Eru. So actually there is an afterlife for Men.
I think both of you are correct and both could be horrible in different ways. The first in a bittersweet sadness kind of way and the latter being more existential nightmare, howling into nothingness
@@ThommyofThenn yup and so we come on the conundrum of human life, immortality and mortality both deal with the infinite and no one knows which is more horrible than the other
but you would not know and experience it, the concept of a void exists for one in the here and now as an existential angst but the future nothingness is, well, nothingness. @@squidmanfedsfeds5301
Robert Heinlein explored this with his character Lazarus Long, the first immortal man in his universe. Long grew weary of life and tried in vain to end himself only to be brought back over and over by his loved ones who couldn't understand why he wanted his release.
Rob, are you aware of the book ' the nature of Middle Earth'. It draws from many of the papers, notes, manuscripts and such, and includes an explanation of the Elves' fading. Elves have two sources of energy. One related to their corporal being and the other to their spirit. Over time, the power or Force related to their Spirit increases while the energy related to their corporal self decreases at the last, the only source of energy is the spirit or spiritual energy. Ergo, Elves become pure spirit.
The Elven Doom is there is no real end or change. They do not become or ascend to something new. They are static. Events around them flow, but they themselves are like rocks in a river of time. They my be worn down, they may fade away, but they are still the unchanging stone.
Robert, here is something I've long pondered but do not recall being discussed. I submit this for consideration: how might Middle-Earth's history have played out if Sauron has been killed at some point and NEVER created any Rings of Power? For example, if Huan the wolfhound had just flat-out killed Sauron, or perhaps Finrod had somehow triumphed over Sauron and killed him in combat. I know that Sauron somehow returned from the dead after Numenor was drowned and after Gil-Galad and Elendil killed him combat, but let's say that that death in either or those earlier two instances might have been final and so Sauron ceased to exist -- certainly LONG before he created the Rings or ever arrived in Numenor. So, absent Sauron what would would Middle Earth (and Numenor) have been like and what would the Elves have done throughout the second and third age with no Rings of Power, not even the Three? Would Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan have abandoned Middle Earth an age earlier, as they would not have had their rings? Gandalf would never have been come over, but that would be OK since he would not have been needed unless the Valar wanted someone to help the people deal with the occasional dragon or balrog (Saruman would never have arrived, either!). Or would the elves departing Middle-Earth over the thousands of years instead have slowed to a trickle, so that by the time that Frodo was born there would have remained great cities still of elven-kind to rival the glory of Gondolin? Would the elves of Mirkwood have stayed for thousands of more years? And with Numenor till happily going its merry way with The Faithful, and the descendants of Elros as great kings, then Gondor and Arnor would have been little more than outposts of Numenor, right? There would have been no Mordor to deal with, and life would have been peachy, right? Indeed would the "fading" of the Elves have happened at all? Or would the elves, particularly those who never saw the undying lands, have happily stayed in a Sauron-free world for thousands of years into what we now call the 4th Age? Maybe the Noldor would leave, but the other elves? Why would they feel compelled to leave? LOL, and then discuss what it would have been like if the Undying Lands and Feanor had never lost the Simarils!!
The gift of man was to be freed from generations of piled up trauma that elves endured. Quite the gift. No wonder there is a sense of melancholy surrounding the elves.
One of the inconsistencies in all this is Beren being brought back to life. Was there some prophecy of Mandos that compelled him to do so when confronted with Luthien? And if so, how did Mandos manage such a thing when it didn't seem that mankind were in his wheelhouse? Also, if the Elves were re-embodied after death, why weren't Feanor and his sons sent back to ME, and Thingol, Gilgalad, etc.? I still don't really understand what Tolkien was suggesting there.
As stated in The Silmarillion, it was not Mandos (or the Valar). It was an Act of God: "But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar. He went therefore to Manwë, Lord of the Valar, who governed the world under the hand of Ilúvatar; and Manwë sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Ilúvatar was revealed." The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Luthien
You know, if Eru just straight up, told the humans that once they die, they would be hanging out with him creating the second music then all of this would’ve been solved.
Execellently explained. There are clear paralells to the greek mythology. Gods and half gods are immortal, but they are jealously about the mortal humans.
As Elrond once told Neo, “we are not here because we are free, we are here because we are not free.”
He also told Frodo: "The Ring is a disease, and you....are the cure, Mr. Frodo. "
Welcome to Rivendell...Mister Anderson.
@@joshdoldersum9132 🙃
then Snape killed Trinity with Rosebud
Hugo Weaving is a great actor.
I think Tolkien, being an older man who had lived through two world wars and rapid industrialization, viewed the idea of immortality as more of a curse. There were likely times he envied people who had died before witnessing what he had seen.
Interesting perspective
Speaking of him being an older man, I realized watching this that the wisdom of age is a major component of Aragorn's kingly attributes. To be a wise old man, but as capable as the finest warrior--ah! That would feel kingly indeed.
I know how he feels
We live in a finite world. Every thing we have, know, and do is limited. Yet immortality is unlimited, and would surpass everything in this reality. If you were to live forever, you would watch as everything you know and love fades away. You would not be able to experience the value of making every moment last because you would no longer be able to internalize that limitedness. For Tolkien, and me, that speaks to the revelation that we are called to inhabit an Eternal realm, that of Heaven, where God invites us into His Kingdom where we may come to experience love with no bounds. Only then we are immortal, and it can only be so in a similarly immortal Kingdom
I like your perspective, but Tolkien had already written at least one story before his participation in WW1. I think it was the story of Turin. But you may be right, after all, he was changing and expanding his stories of ME pretty much up until his death. So it’s possible that he came up with “the doom of the elves” later - either before or after WW2, when he would have been older.
Dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and cave, slowly to forget and to be forgotten.
Also the fate of the Tuatha de Danaan; magical beings from Irish myth, who faded to become the fairy folk, the mound dwelling Sidhe, following the arrival of humans. They also originally came out of the west.
I was thinking the same, and thinking that they and their "darker" more outré counterparts, the Fomorians, dwindle further to become the brownies and pixies and red caps and goblins of later ages.
This, I did not know! The only story based off of Celtic myth that I have read in detail is the Prydain chronicles, and they were loosely based off of Welsh.
I have read Dennis McKiernan, whose faerie folk seem more complete, in both explanations and Celtic-ness, but both authors limit their use of non-Irish names.
When D. McKiernan does use one, it is often completely detached from its roots and explanation.
Yes, from Hy Breasail in the west.
Where do you think JRRT got some of his ideas? He took a lot of lore and myth and created his own stories. Just like a lot of writers before him.
@@BrettHarvey-u6c I knew he used myth, yes. Which myth from where I never learned.
I actually never wanted to learn, now that I think on it. I am not against learning this, but given how well the world is written, it was unnecessary, and it didn't cross my mind.
The final ship from middle earth to the Undying Lands always left me with this incredible heaviness for the loss of magic and wonder in the world. Its like the cancer with its slow progression and then the death knell of magic in the world. It feels like the transition from childhood to adulthood, and from the sense of magic and belief in the mystery towards practicality and necessity. It really encapsulates the progression so incredibly well that very few literary moments have ever made my heart ache quite like it.
Dehh
As I understand it, as well, the Eldar's lifespan was that of the world, so when the end comes (as it inevitably will), they too will die. And whether there's anything after that, they don't know, but it doesn't sound like it. I remember one writer in the days of Web 1.0 saying they were like passengers on a sinking ocean liner, wondering why the humans were always trying to get out of the lifeboats and back onto the sinking ship.
That's a perfect explanation..!
The elves will be reborn again when the Second song of the Ainur begins and they will join along with Men in crafting a song that will be greater than the 1st.
The elves don't exactly know what their role will be after the remaking of Arda, but I don't think it's stated anywhere they will die permanently after singing in the second song of creation alongside Men. Galadriel even says to Treebeard that when the Spring of the world arrives (so, when it's remade free of imperfections) that they will meet again.
@@codeisawesome369 Quite the opposite, it's very flawed. There's nothing anywhere that says elves stop existing when the world dies. The comments below yours explain it well.
They were told by Maia, literal angels, that after the end of the world they would exist on, and help the angels and God himself to create something better.
I understand elves as not merely having a doom ("fate" or "destiny") but as being especially bound to their doom, generally bound to the melody of their song. They are fateful people. For example, oaths have an extremely powerful hold on them, and in turn their oaths can change the course of history and the shape of the world. The fact that men do not know their own fate liberates them to choose their own bindings. Do they make the right choices? Are they on the right track? Nobody will know until the great song, time, ends.
Before I expanded your comment, I immediately thought of their uniquely powerful oaths as I read it. Great minds.
It's funny that Galadriel told a Hobbit - of all people - that the Elves of Middle-earth will _dwindle_ to a "rustic folk of dell and cave". I am sure that Frodo was very happy to hear her high opinion about his people's' way of life 😀
Eh, Frodo suffered no illusions of grandeur regarding the comparison between Hobbits and Elves.
@@anni.68 Well, I don't disagree that perfection isn't great in fiction writing, but A. The Elves are secondary characters, and B. to Frodo it isn't fiction, it's real life. The reader may find the Elves unimpressive, but Frodo certainly doesn't.
@@anni.68 That's probably why the elves are not the main characters. The only elf that actually joins the main characters is a rather inexperienced one. Legolas is good with a bow, but Aragorn uses more magic than Legolas does and he really takes more of a support role, aiding Aragorn in his part of the quest rather than dominating the main objective.
@@anni.68 Something tells me you're the type of person who'll cheat or leave a good relationship cause they're "bored".
@@anni.68I don't know, I always found myself more interested in the elves than anything in Tolkien's world, even as a child my hero was Legolas from the movies, admittedly, because he was cool to me and nothing more then.
But to the point, I find their way of life and fate to be fascinating, the way they live in harmony with the world, the way they master whatever craft they seek due to their agelessness, the way they selflessly taught another race as best they could knowing full well they would have to leave the world completely to them, the way memories never really fade to them, which adds that sense of melancholy to their existence to where loss and happiness is always felt as it happened yesterday yet pain is always more overwhelming, both to them and us. So I don't find them perfect per say, as their physical abilities as warriors, healers or craftsmen are mostly a by-product of "infinite time", their mental and spiritual struggles add so much to them. Can you imagine mourning the loss of a mortal lover throughout all your unending life to the point where you can't even imagine trying to begin a new? Their flaws have always been more spiritual than Man's, their struggle to adapt due to their unchanging nature. In short, I found the way they were written to be beautiful.
Well done! One thing about the word "doom" is Tolkien seems to use it in the old english sense (dōm), which means "judgement" or "law".
Puts a new context on the volcano
@@hummakavula3750indeed!!
Ah, that must have norse origins because that is precisely what the word "dom" means in Swedish today ("dom" being a judgement passed by a judge, "domstol" is a court of law). Interesting!
It means home in serbian and domus is home in latin...you can look at it that way..like a final destination after a full circle, idk....Tolkien liked to twist existinf words a little bit, so....maybe...
@@dejanmarkovic3040 absolutely a lovily combination.
"For it is the doom of Men that they forget." - Merlin, Excalibur.
Much like the Elves, Merlin grows tired. "There are other worlds Arthur, this one is done with me." But he ends up trapped within the heart of the earth.
To forget, and not carry the weariness of the memory of the ages. Arthur was blessed to not know the sins of his father. But so too can as Merlin said forget the good moments, moments to look back on and be proud of.
A blessing and a curse.
My God that man's ideas (and writings) were beautiful...
I think something that also gets missed (especially in the films) is the fact the Elves are, in addition to being long-lived keepers of history and wisdom, also very much creatures of the present moment. Their attitudes in the books when dealing with mortals are merriment and bemusement. They sing nonsense songs in addition to historical ballads, go for star-gazing parties, and feast and drink with the best of them. They are tied to the world and delight in it, with small and grand expressions. It's only when they lose that enjoyment that they decide to go to the Undying Lands, which as Robert pointed out suit their unchanging nature. What I don't like to think about the Doom of Elves, is what happens to them when the world (of which the Undying Lands are still part) meets its doom.
From what a lot of Tolkien's notes say they get to join the other faithful in the world to come but are tied to Middle Earth tell that time.
@@Wolf-oc6tx I hope so, dissolving into nothingness would be a raw deal after the aeons they've gone through
@@raymondcoventry1221 Remember his religious faith influenced his writing and that comes with the implication everyone has both souls and personal responsibility for there own actions.
I was so surprised to see Legolas drink Gimli under the table in the book. Tropes from fantasy that came after had me expecting the exact opposite.
@@Poldovico Its mostly that people associate Dwarves with strength and drinking while associating Elves with pretty and dainty things. Symbolically both outcomes make sense depending on how one portrays elves.
Is poor Feanor still languishing in the Halls? If so, he must be yearning for the gift of men. At some point immortality must be like Groundhog Day.
I don’t think Feanor would dare show his face to those Teleri elves who remember the kin-slaying. To them it’s like it happened yesterday. He’s better off in the Halls of Mandos until the end of time.
One thing else about the dooms, as you mentioned elsewhere, is that Morgoth is in Arda yet, invested in its being, even if his consciousness has been cast into the abyss. So elves have to live with that as long as Arda endures as it does, but the doom of Man is such that Man is pulled free of that when he dies. I.E. allegorically, Man has salvation from corruption before corruption itself is ended. That, more than anything, is probably what the elves envied.
In all their grace, knowledge, might and power, and even arrogance, the elves are perhaps the saddest creatures in middle earth. That makes me love Rivendell in the movies so much. In all its beauty and splendor, Rivendell in fall is such a beautiful embodiment of the melancholy that lies at the heart of the elves.
I first encountered this idea of doomed immortality when a couple decades ago reading Anne Rice's vampire chronicles. I have to admit as a young person the idea of immortality being a curse was completely lost on me. Learning more about Tolkein's ideas now that I'm in midlife, it makes a lot more sense.
I often think about the movie "Death Becomes Her". Women who drink a potion to live forever, but if someone shotguns you in the chest then you have to live foerever with that gaping hole. Not such a thrilling idea after. Immortality on a mortal earth would be terrible.
Or like Tom Cruise Interview with a Vampire. Cursed to be immortal and watch as time marches on and friends grow old and die.
I'm now thinking of Highlander.. and the song "Who Wants to Live Forever" has just entered my head and will probably stick around for a while..
So poetic, beautiful and sad, the Elves first awoke in Middle Earth, it is their home also and they love it. And yet, they have to leave it behind at some point or fade.
Good riddance, say I. I'm quite glad they left. Gawd they were tiresome.
@@john.premose no race is more tiresome than us humans.
@@Visitant01 admit it though, the way Tolkien portrays the elves is insufferable
Massive thanks for recommending letter 131. I paused this video for an hour to devour it. It’s awesome to see the overall scope and sweep of Tolkien’s legendarium summarized by the man himself in such a way that the themes, through-limes, and purpose are clear
Imagine being an elf sent back after an osha violation related slaying
Lmao that would be a hilariously great idea for a comedy skit
@@MerkhVisionAgree. @demarge1065, hope you send your idea to SNL writing team.
@fudgepacker2858 osha is a government organization that regulates safety in a work environment, there's a lot of video compilations of examples if you look for them.
Awkward looks in the halls of the Valar knowing you are only there because Elrond doesn't belive in handrails and that asshole glorfaenor never cleans up his banana peals
For what it's worth, the word "doom" literally means judgment. That is why the day of judgment is called doomsday. Interestingly, Tolkien, philologist that he was, gives his readers a lesson about this during the council of Elrond, when he has Elrond ask "What shall we do with the Ring, the least of rings, the trifle that Sauron fancies? That is the doom that we must deem." Deem, to judge, is simply the verb-form of doom; Elrond is just saying, in effect, 'this is the judgment we must judge.' So the doom of the elves is just the judgment of the elves, i.e., the law or rule that applies to them, and the doom of men is simply the law or rule that applies to men.
Long time follower but first time commenter. You should make a series where you read his letters. Your narration is fantastic.
What of the orcs? Are they not twisted corrupted elves ? Do they get to go to the undying lands after they die ?
So many questions so many mysteries ❤
Love the video !! X
My guess is that orcs are just vanished, more of a "put them out of their misery" sort of situation...
Orcs don’t go the undying lands.
I’m going to attempt an answer based on the Dwarves and Tolkien’s Catholic faith here:
When Aulë made the Dwarves, they had no animating essence. It was not until the moment that Eru adopted the Dwarves that they had souls. As Eru’s adopted children, their souls are likely eternal, just as the other Children of Ilúvatar (Men and Elves) have eternal souls.
Being descendants of Men and Elves, I would imagine that the Orcs, Goblins, and Uruk-hai all have immortal souls. Just as the Catholic faith teaches that no soul is predestined to damnation and annihilation, I would imagine Tolkien intended for the “dark Children” to have opportunities for salvation.
They were created by Melkor by corrupting the elves but the orcs that were born after that has no direct link with elves.
Never thought about it like this before, that it's made to sound as if elves are a kind of angel.
I get weary of the endless cycles of the world too and I’m only in my 30’s lol. Can’t imagine living for thousands of years, sounds exhausting.
I would need a thousand years to see before I say bs like that
Lucky for you friend, Christ shows us the way and in the Kingdom of Heaven you could have the opportunity to consider the above preponderance after 1,000 years of personal consciousness. : )
@@johnphillips4708 This is a Lord of the Rings video mate. Keep your unrelated fantasy musings out of it.
@@omgblastbeatslol is that a real replay or are you just a troll?
@@johnphillips4708 You're the troll. Keep that nonsense to yourself.
This kinda puts a new perspective on Arwen's decision to give up her immortality. On one hand, it's incredibly sad that she will probably never be able to see her father, mother, or brothers again. On the other, it must also feel a bit freeing.
Unusually well done, Robert. You brought a tear to my eye.
I need to read these letters for myself. They're kind of the 'cut content' of his works and these videos are like if someone made a mod to restore these assets into the game.
Channeling my inner Samwise - "I don't know why, but it makes me sad!"
Yes, that final line got me all emotional.
Always a blessing Loremaster Robert. Great breakdown as usual
Robert, it might have been worthwhile introducing the great quote from Aragorn to Arwen in the appendices, based on his near-death foresight granted by Eru: "Lo, we are not bound to the circles of the world." This suggests some spiritual existence, beyond earthly limits - matter and time. I think it gives Aragorn great hope - Arwen is not so sure at that point, but follows, in time. A beautiful piece of writing.
I would love to see a video about what is going to happen to the dwarves :)
I was going to comment that it would seem a better symmetry if the Elves came from beyond the world at first and then entered into it and were forever bound to it, while Men came from within the world and were doomed to be cast out of it into the beyond, but then it struck me that that first role is already taken by another race of Tolkien's legendarium, the Ainur, at least those like the Valar and Maiar who chose to enter into Ea. So we've got a nice symmetry of three races there: those Ainur who are from beyond the world but enter into it forever; the Elves who are born of the world and can never leave it; and the Men who are born of the world and then leave it again (I would imagine to the Timeless Halls of Eru Illuvatar, where the Ainur dwelt before Ea).
It does make me wonder, as another commenter said, about the Dwarves' place in all this, though.
Tolkien didn't finish fleshing out much of his legendarium. The origins of the Orcs and Dragons are especially obscure, given the problem that Melkor could not have created them as Aulë created the dwarves, since Eru would never have given them souls and Melkor couldn't do that himself.
I suspect Tolkien only included dwarves at all because he put them in the children's fable called The Hobbit (in which he'd casually included a few elements of the legendarium, such as Elves and some songs) and he needed a backstory for them when his publishers persuaded him to write The Lord of the Rings, which he decided was set in a much later era of the legendarium. So their role in the stories of the First Age is pretty minimal, and it seems he never got around to explaining what happens to them after they die. Or perhaps he intentionally left it vague as a kind of divine mystery. We can ask similar questions of the Ents, of whom we know even less.
One thing we can say though is that the dwarves believed the Dwarf-fathers, the seven originally created by Aulë, reincarnated from time to time, hence the seven kings of the Longbeards named Durin were all supposedly reincarnations of Durin the Deathless, ancestor of all the Longbeards. Whether they were correct in this belief isn't stated.
@@cshairydude That would fit nicely, aesthetically, with the rest of the races' fates, for the Dwarves to have souls bound to the world like Elves, but recycled over and over again instead of continuous and undying. I was thinking that the natural-seeming place for a fourth race in the overall symmetry would be some kind of underside of the cycle loosely implied, where you've got those born outside and come in, those born in and staying in, those born in and escaping out, and then the missing piece would be...
...those born out and staying out I guess, although now that I think about that it seems that the Ainur who never entered Ea actually fill that role, which is a nice kind of symmetry itself (two branches of Ainur, both born outside but only one entered within; two races of Children of Iluvatar, both born within but only one to ever leave). That's not where this thought was going when I started it, but I guess it kinda works out even better. Maybe Dwarves go in and out and in and out as they reincarnate?
Tolkien was thinking in nordic elves, the ones that you know that are tiny people. He bound their strengh to Earth’s strengh, so as times goes by Earth and elve’s strengh is slowly fading away. So, they are going to diminish unless they leave middle earth’s shores and move to Valinor, the elvish paradise, the place in which they will rest after helping men to inhabit middle earth until the Dagor Dagorath. The thing was to explain why nordic elves are tiny people, and this is a very poetic way to explain it. So the tiny elves are the ones who refused to leave middle earth, that means our world.
What about an elf that doen't care if he gets killed, appearing before Mandos over and over again, always with some bad explanation. And trying to make it sound like it wasn't his fault somehow. But every time he gets sent back, he just does something foolhardy again cause he knows he can't really die.
One of the best reflections that you have given us; and deeply moving too.
I would like to ask, what happens to the orcs and goblins after death ? They were first corrupted elves, so do their souls also travel to the Halls of Mandos ?
Do the orcs, which were a twisted from elves by Morgoth, also become re-bodied after “death” and, if so, do they return as orcs or elves?
No
Love the depth of your topics. Keep up the great work.
I'm about 50, and having seen what I've seen already, the idea of living forever is a scary thing 🤣🤣
tolkien seems like a trully remarkable man, he is one of the people in time that i would have loved to have a sit down and pick his brain if i could choose historic characters from the past.
No mention of the summons of the Valar and that had Ulmo had he’s way the doom of the elves may have been different
Thanks for this good Sir. An explanation ( of the phrase "Doom of the Elves") I did not realize I was missing or in fact, I needed.
I have Tolkien's "Letters" and in honesty, have only perused them when discovering a topic in which particular ones have been mentioned.
For this, I'm especially thankful for you bringing "Letter 131" to my attention. I shall study it forthwith.
As for The "Doom of Men" it's a true wonder and revelation that we, being its subjects, do not fully understand. I personally feel a kindred spirit to Tolkien's belief there is much to what we are beyond this Mortal coil. It will be an exciting and hopefully rewarding journey we commence with our "Part - 2". It also gives us reasoning to make our short time here as joyful and loving as we can, for we only get one ride on this roller coaster... :)
If the elves are tied to the earth, were they always destined to fade or did that only come about after Morgoth tainted it by becoming a part of it?
Men: Why do Elves get to live while we have to die?
Elves: Why do Men get to die while we have to live?
Slowly fading in order to make room for humanity is in some ways a far sadder fate than dying in battle or something. Its also interesting seeing this idea of immortality getting old after a while. A few video games I've played have toyed with this concept to varying degrees. It's nice to become aware of the more subtle Tolkien influences in the wider fantasy canon
Thanks for this, I had draw the wrong conclusion by missing the reincarnation aspect, I had mus-interpreted it as meaning they died and became one with the world.
I think the place human souls went after death is here, to our world. And that Ea is not a far past history of our world, but a separate creation.
When I first read TLoTR and the Silmarillion as a kid, I thought of the elves as not having souls of their own. They were animated by the Earth itself, like a part or feature of the Earth, whereas Humans had an actual soul, like a divine spark akin to Illuvitar's
I also never thought about it, but its funny how eleves and men both sort of envy eachother's fates
The Doom of Man, which also, according to Tolkien, applies to Hobbits, who are a branch of humanity, though why or how they became short and hairy-footed littlefolk isn't said, and the Druedain, similar, no known reason they branched off, is actually kind of well-explained. The souls of Men go to the Timeless Halls with Eru, at least according to the Eldar and the Faithful (eventually the Dunedain). Elves 'die' when Arda does, but Men survive for the new universe, because their souls are removed. Elves possess estel, though, faith that Eru, being a all loving, all good, and totally benevolent being (he is, according to Tolkien, the Abrahamic God, just in this fictional universe, but, as such possesses the same general traits) will restore the elves (and dwarves believe will restore the dwarves) to rebuild the world as a peaceful place, free of evil, for all of Eru Illuvater's children. Afterall, the fea they've been given is imperishable. How could a loving god just curse them to oblivion when he's supposed to love them so much?
One of your best. And that’s saying something!
Another wonderful LOTR video
Amazing stuff. As always it is a fantasy drama but which ties together so much philosophy and deep thought provoking ideas.
That was really one of the things i didnt understand, thanks for explaining!
@6.35 Great picture of Denethor.
In the movies the Elves always came across as cowards who just ran away from battle leaving the others to their fate.
There is an indie movie called 'The Man From Earth' which explores the idea of a single human (male) who reached the age of 30 something and stopped ageing for reasons he can't explain. He can possibly be killed by weapon or disease but he cannot die from the process of ageing so in a manner of speaking he can be described as an immortal (sort of). He has lived over 10,000 years and has adapted with the passing ages of humankind and has even survived deadly diseases in the past (like the plague). It is a movie that explores the gifts and perils of immortality as a 'mortal' human living through many ages and seeing everything shifting before him.
Sorry to give away a small spoiler on the movie, but just like the Numenoreans there are a few men in the movie who get jealous of the "immortal" man and are angry that he alone is given the "gift" of immortality because they can't come to terms with their own mortality.
The movie is not perfect in any way (although it has a cult following and an 8 plus rating on IMDB) but it does allow us to imagine the possibilities of immortality and reflect on the idea of our own mortality and how valuable it is to us. Things have more value when we know they will perish one day or else we tend to take things for granted (whether that is with people or objects). The movie is worth watching even if you may not agree with its central philosophy or direction. I personally liked the movie. It is a story written by someone who has previously worked with Star Trek episodes so it does fit into the sci-fi genre. I was reminded of the movie after watching this video.
It makes me wonder how the world would have proceeded in Morgoth had not been involved. The Valar had their shining city between the lamps and I could see Elves and Humans building their cities on the shores of the lakes. But would the elves have just faded or would they have had to go to Almaren...
If not for the undying lands this would have been cruel and harrowing. It's thoughtful of Tolkein/Eru that the Elves always had a get out clause for when the Earth became unsuitable for them.
Another fantastic analysis! Cheers Robert
You also have to ask if the Numenorians had some how succeeded in gaining immortality, How long before they would be begging for a death that would never come.
Sure the first 1000 years would be fun, but the next less so and the next even less so.
Until every waking hour is torture of endless crushing boredom.
Whenever I see someone who thinks immortality would be a curse, it just tells me that they're missing something internally, the kind of overflowing inner peace and joy that could fill eternity, replaced instead with a bottomless hole that even eternity could not fill. Having felt both ways at different times in life, it makes me sad to think some people find that inner void so normal that that's what they expect of immortality, rather than it giving time enough to heal from that kind of thing and flourish forever.
Just ask the nazgul
@@Pfhorrest If every good things around you are also eternal then maybe that's good that's where the idea of heaven comes from but if you're the only one to stay forever and everything changes then you probably going to wish for death in a few hundred years.
Thank you for another great video.
But is that true after Eru Iluvatar smacked down Numenor, made Arda into a globe, and moved Aman beyond the reach of Men? We don't really know what Eru Iluvatar does with Himself in His halls outside of time and space. But we know that He has further plans, which even the Ainur know little about. Is He creating more worlds other than Arda? Has He, perhaps, strongly encouraged the Elves to leave Middle-earth because the same task awaits them on newer worlds?
We must remember that Melkor had poisoned the world, corrupting its intended purity, making it toxic to the Elves in the long term, to spite Iluvatar. Only in Valinor do the Valar maintain this original purity of creation, thus now the only lifeboat for the Elves to live out the life of the universe without suffering. Humanity, you could say, was tailor-made to thrive on Earth, now "Morgoth's Ring", with a lifespan short enough where his evil wouldn't corrupt us.
Deep! Great breakdown!
Thank you so much Robert!!!
Excellent as always
Giving birth to Feanor is one hell of a misadventure.
Without him the Valar would've just sat on their asses while Morgoth ruled all of middle earth for eternity
Elves could refuse the summons to the Halls of Mandos and remain in Middle-Earth but they would exist as fading spirits unable to take physical form again; the same fate as those Elves who never made the final journey to Valinor.
Correct, the Avari come to mind. The original fathers of the Elves must still reside, invisible to the naked eye, in the far eastern regions of Arda.
Agreed. His best letter.
One point that I am not clear on is what happens to elves once Arda ends. Do they just stop existing at that point? Do they get to join Eru Iluvatar in the timeless halls? Something else?
Finrod once said (to Andredth) that for Elves death is simply slow footed, and that by being tied to Arda they will perish with it. He saw that Men were thought about with regards to death but nothing has been said of Elves, and that not knowing unsettles them.
What confuses me is that the dwarves believe they are to be an integral part of the rebuilding of the world and finally making it the way the Creator wished, after it is destroyed. If the bittersweet doom of the elves is to be part of Arda forever, what happens to them if Arda is Renewed?
I think perhaps that even with the doom of the elves, and Men being 'freed from the cycle' my knowledge of deep-time makes me feel that a few tens of millennia of youth and beauty would be preferable to the fate of those doomed to exist til The End.
I'm still not clear about being "re-embodied." I understood that Glorfindel was an exception, coming back as himself. I thought that other elves would come back as the spirits of infants, rather like reincarnation, with at most vague memories of prior lives. Or are new infant elves, like human infants, completely new spirits?
Glorfindel was the exception in the way that he was allowed to return to middle earth to keep on fighting the darkness. All the elves that return get a new copy of their bodies and return as themselves. For and instance, Finrod Felagund was reimbodied sooner than the other exiled noldor, due the devotion and loyalty he showed to Beren before dying, rejecting the silmaril and honouring his friendship with the house of Barahir.
@@senorbolainas2991thank you for explaining the re-emodiment. I didn't understand that
The catch is, no one knows where humans go once they die. Elves and Maiar know exactly where they'll go after centuries/millennia of living, but humans will die after 80 years, many earlier due to illness, and go - god knows where, but we're supposed to be grateful for it anyway?
Tolkien says that men go directly with Eru Iluvatar so that's not much of an awful doom
Yes, precisely. It is the gift of Eru, to be free of the bonds of the earth. If you don’t understand that, and think the elves have it better, you’re far too materialistic to understand Tolkien
Sauron has gotten to you!
Here’s a question: Does Arwen slowly fade or did choosing Aragorn make her mortal too!
She chose a mortal life.
I think the very concept of the soul of the elves is as part of Arda as in the same way the elemnts of nature are.
That´s way in the prologue Galadriel says that "The world is changing; i feel it in the water, i feel it in the earth, I smel it in the air"
Because her soul is also part of the world.
Am I alone in thinking that it is ironic that men are "blessed" with freedom from the circles of the world, but are the only ones to remain in the world after a time. Which in the absence of elves, further explains why the world is in a state of decay.
The doom of the elves sounds a lot like good ole' nostalgia, it wouldn't be a surprise if this is what inspired Tolkien most when he conceived the race of the elves.
I’ve always thought of the elves as described here, they never age. But Tolkien’s Nature of Middle Earth is making me question that. Tolkien describes extensive calculations for calculating their effective age, which really doesn’t make any sense unless they continue to indeed age. It’s even described at certain ages how they tire and eventually fade. Along those same lines, if being slain is the loss of their body, fading is really the same thing. And yet being slain and fading are treated very differently by Tolkien. One seems temporary, the other permanent. I’d love to hear your thoughts on how this book affects our view on the Elven life cycle. 👍
Elves don't age in the body as Men do.
"The Quendian “growth” and “life” may be compared with that of Men, so long as it is remembered that (a) its rate of “expenditure” was far slower than the human, especially after achievement of maturity, and (b) that when the Quendi spoke of their bodies “waning” it did not mean that these became decrepit or that they felt the oncoming of senility or death." (NoMe, 1 XII)
&
"It might be thought that, since the Eldar do not (as Men deem) grow old in body, they may bring forth children at any time in the ages of their lives. But this is not so." (MR, Laws & Customs)).
That is, they don't become aged, wrinkled, in need of a cane etc*. At the point in life where Men might become 'aged', Elves would start fading.
*Normally. Some great stress (e.g. Gwindor's captivity by Morgoth), may cause them to appear old like Men.
Outstanding Robert!!!
But can‘t elves just make themselves mortal? Arwen did that somehow. Was she then removed from the circles of the world? And if so, why didn’t other elves do as she did, to escape the circles?
Good questions. We actually know of an elf who became mortal by choice, Elros, Elronds brother and first king of Numenor. But it seems to be always a special case. For Elros it was his parents, human and elf. This allowed him to chose which to become, since he couldnt be both. Maybe it was the same with Arwen, she is, after all, of the same bloodline. Or maybe she could chose, because of her marriage to Aragon, when they tied their fates together and spoke their vows. Such things do carry power in Tolkiens world.
@@Daniel-rd6st Elros was not an Elf. He was a half-elf who the gift of Men.
Earendil and Elwing were also half-elves.
By the judgement of Manwe, anyone with any mortal blood is mortal, unless Manwe specifically grants other doom.
Other doom was granted to Earendil, Elwing, Elros, Elrond and Elrond's children.
The only Elf allowed to change fate was Luthien, and Tolkien says she was an absolute exception.
Arwen was not an elf, she was a half-elf who was specifically granted a chopice.
The only elf allowed to 'become mortal', in a direct act of God, was Luthien, and Tolkien notes her as an absolute exception.
Thats basically what i wrote, ok i should have phrased it differently, but i said that the parents of Elros were elf and human, which kinda implies, that he was half elf half human, which gave him the choice, because he couldnt be both (with the whole different treatment of afterlife stuff going on) 🙂@@Tar-Elenion
Only the half-elves were given that choice. Luthien and Arwen were both “lost” to elves by choosing humanity. Elrond and his sons chose to be elves while his brother Elros chose to be judged as a man. Earendil hesitated and let his wife Elwing choose: she chose to be an elf.
Melkor had spread much of his evil in all of Middle Earth's soil and water. Eating and drinking meant consuming and imbibing some of it. Humans died before that could affect them much. But Elves would gradually turn into wraiths over the centuries. At least, without the protection of the Three Rings. But these failed when the One was destroyed.
Excellent video.
There’s an an anime called Frieren that’s all about an elf coming to terms with her immortality.
How did the ghosts of the slain Elves still reside in the Dead Marshes? It's clear that there were Elven warriors that Frodo saw, how did they not go to the Halls of Mandos?
Interesting question
The physical body is not what goes to the halls of Mandos and these spectres I believe would be more akin to the barrow wights usurping the shadow of the physical body
Elves could refuse the summons. They were known as The Houseless. Some were consumed by grief at their deaths. Others were corrupt in some way (Saeros comes to mind, though he answered the Summons, but Mandos held him a LONG time for what he had done to Turin).
The Houseless COULD become so corrupted they would fall prey to Necromancy and be 're-housed' as Barrow-Wights IIRC.
@@BrooklynRedLeg Thanks
Tolkien explains this with "That was an Age and an Age ago!" said Sam, "the Dead can't really be there. Is that some devilry hatched in the Dead Land?" "Who knows? Smeagol doesn't know," said Gollum. "We tried to touch them, long ago, yes we tried. But bodies to see, not to touch perhaps, precious. Oh yes." Sam shivered, thinking he knew why Gollum had tried to touch them. "Well I never want to see them," he said, "Not never again!"
-they were hallucinations caused by Sauron and his ghostly minions. As Frodo says with Faramir, "Seeming so by Sauron's dark arts," to which Faramir says "No for his works fill the heart with loathing but mine was consumed by pity" [talking about seeing the dead body of his borther Boromir]. In reality, the Elves' bodies faded and their spirits passed, but probably were unable to come back to Earth due to Mandos fearing corruption by Sauron or something.
Excellent essay!
I also thought it was a way of connecting his fantasy realm to our real word, explaining the absence of such creatures
And the difference between his tall and mighty elves, and the small, elusive elves of "real" folklore. People today forget, but before Tolkien the entire concept of elves was of little magical creatures akin to how we still think of gnomes (the Noldor are even *called* Gnomes in his earlier drafts!), brownies, fairies, and of course dwarves. The big novelty of his worldbuilding was that once upon a time, ages and ages past, the world was dominated by large, powerful, magical folk, whose time then passed, and who faded, as the age of men dawned and those once-mighty dwindled into "dell and cave".
@@Pfhorrest ..and into legends
Same! It explains how elves became the smaller impish beings we read about in fairy tales, who hide from humans and spend their time playing in forests etc. I’m guessing this was the fate of the Silvan elves from Mirkwood for instance.
Should civilization persist, I think in 1,000 years people will be reading Tolkien the way we read Dante or Homer.
Good! There's a lot very modern about Tolkien; especially how the main heroes of the tale aren't kings or warriors or wizards, but common folk resistant to the corrupting spell of power. I also like that the Witch-King could be slain by no man, so instead he was slain by a hobbit and a woman. And Ungoliant, the spider from outer space, could have come straight from pulp SF.
It's interesting that Tolkein's view of human mortality in his fantasy world is seen as a gift. In Catholic theology, death is a byproduct of original sin. It's a curse born of original sin.
In Catholic theology, the Fall--a motif Tolkien admitted to be primary to his mythology, being almost everywhere in it and on many different levels (beginning with Melkor before anything else was made)--is, likewise, a kind of separation of creature from creator; but regardless, is still viewed as being allowed only so that it can be harnessed entirely for the Good (even as Melkor's greatest attempts at causing discord in the Music were only used by Eru as his "instrument in bringing about greater devisings" in its themes than would have otherwise been). The "curse" of death then, from the perspective of Tolkien's 7th Age (Nature of Middle Earth) which he aligns with the birth of Christ, is seen rather, as the greatest possible gift and redefines death as the process that brings about an end to any such separation. So really, Tolkien's own theological perspective--as a Catholic--is that "death's curse" is being experienced by us now, and in varying degrees, until "all of the Children of Illuvatar join with the Ainur in the final Music" when all will be played aright and each will be given, personally, the fullness of the Flame Imperishable, enabling each to comprehend the meaning of each other's unique part in the Music, and thus also Illuvatar Himself, the Composer, Conductor, and Sound. Tolkien's "..and he will then give to each the Flame Imperishable, being well pleased..," is his Catholic "..and God shall be All in All." Theology calls it the Eschaton, common speech calls it the Final Judgement, Tolkien calls it the end of the final battle or the "Dagor Dagorath."
@@kandlefuhriman7515 Catholic theology is all over the place, utterly wrong. Everything that's happened on earth, for billions of years, is totally unplanned, not thought out in advance, and the 'gods' (including YHVH) are just playing catch-up, trying to navigate through an utter mess. There's no moral to it whatsoever, as Solomon told us, everything is futile. He went somewhat mad eventually, once he realised how fucked up EVERYTHING is. Let's just hope that death is total death, who in their right mind wants to be cursed with resurrection and eternal life, really, no one I ask wants it.
Very well done, Robert. I've met many people who assume the Elves are immortal in the world and then when the world ends Iluvatar will call them back. I don't subscribe to that theory. I believe Elves exist as long as the world exists, and when it finally perishes, then so will the Elves. The fate (or doom) of Men is different, and it is treated as a gift, by Iluvatar.
I personally doubt that. I think the reason that the final fate of the Elves is a mystery is the same reason the final fate of Men (ie, they're fate after death) is a mystery. The Legendarium just isn't about the afterlife, that doesn't mean Elves don't have one.
The fate of Elves beyond the end of the world is one of those things that Tolkien didn't nail down - one of those things where some say one thing and some another, and only Illuvatar, and perhaps Manwe, Mandos, or Morgoth knows.
@@rmsgreyI doubt that any save Iluvatar knows for sure. Morgoth certainly doesn't know - for if he did he would have certainly tried to use that information to corrupt the Elves (further)
The elves are tied to the undying lands which will always exist as will the valar
@@SelfProclaimedEmperor Disagree.
Tolkien was doing his best to make some sense of death and to make the immortality of the elves unattractive, but the best he could do was to point to some vague afterlife for men in the company of Eru. It doesn't really work, though. The eternal youth of the elves and their immunity from disease still seems like the better deal. 😊
To you...
@@aimeem The last sentence in my comment makes your comment redundant.
Tolkien did state that Mortal Men's spirits after residing in the Halls of Mandos for an unknown amount of time do eventually leave the circles of Arda and come to live in the Timeless Halls with Eru. So actually there is an afterlife for Men.
I can think of nothing worse than being immortal in the Elven or Human sense. Thank you for this vid explaining the tensions between the two.
lol, you suffer from a poverty of imagination.
What about an immortal darkness, void, I think that might be worse
I think both of you are correct and both could be horrible in different ways. The first in a bittersweet sadness kind of way and the latter being more existential nightmare, howling into nothingness
@@ThommyofThenn yup and so we come on the conundrum of human life, immortality and mortality both deal with the infinite and no one knows which is more horrible than the other
but you would not know and experience it, the concept of a void exists for one in the here and now as an existential angst but the future nothingness is, well, nothingness. @@squidmanfedsfeds5301
Robert Heinlein explored this with his character Lazarus Long, the first immortal man in his universe. Long grew weary of life and tried in vain to end himself only to be brought back over and over by his loved ones who couldn't understand why he wanted his release.
Rob, are you aware of the book ' the nature of Middle Earth'. It draws from many of the papers, notes, manuscripts and such, and includes an explanation of the Elves' fading.
Elves have two sources of energy. One related to their corporal being and the other to their spirit. Over time, the power or Force related to their Spirit increases while the energy related to their corporal self decreases at the last, the only source of energy is the spirit or spiritual energy. Ergo, Elves become pure spirit.
The Elven Doom is there is no real end or change. They do not become or ascend to something new. They are static. Events around them flow, but they themselves are like rocks in a river of time. They my be worn down, they may fade away, but they are still the unchanging stone.
Very well said.
Robert, here is something I've long pondered but do not recall being discussed.
I submit this for consideration: how might Middle-Earth's history have played out if Sauron has been killed at some point and NEVER created any Rings of Power? For example, if Huan the wolfhound had just flat-out killed Sauron, or perhaps Finrod had somehow triumphed over Sauron and killed him in combat. I know that Sauron somehow returned from the dead after Numenor was drowned and after Gil-Galad and Elendil killed him combat, but let's say that that death in either or those earlier two instances might have been final and so Sauron ceased to exist -- certainly LONG before he created the Rings or ever arrived in Numenor.
So, absent Sauron what would would Middle Earth (and Numenor) have been like and what would the Elves have done throughout the second and third age with no Rings of Power, not even the Three?
Would Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan have abandoned Middle Earth an age earlier, as they would not have had their rings? Gandalf would never have been come over, but that would be OK since he would not have been needed unless the Valar wanted someone to help the people deal with the occasional dragon or balrog (Saruman would never have arrived, either!). Or would the elves departing Middle-Earth over the thousands of years instead have slowed to a trickle, so that by the time that Frodo was born there would have remained great cities still of elven-kind to rival the glory of Gondolin? Would the elves of Mirkwood have stayed for thousands of more years? And with Numenor till happily going its merry way with The Faithful, and the descendants of Elros as great kings, then Gondor and Arnor would have been little more than outposts of Numenor, right? There would have been no Mordor to deal with, and life would have been peachy, right?
Indeed would the "fading" of the Elves have happened at all? Or would the elves, particularly those who never saw the undying lands, have happily stayed in a Sauron-free world for thousands of years into what we now call the 4th Age? Maybe the Noldor would leave, but the other elves? Why would they feel compelled to leave?
LOL, and then discuss what it would have been like if the Undying Lands and Feanor had never lost the Simarils!!
Mae Govannon Mellon! Ecthelion! Glorfindel! Gil-Galad! Legolas Greenleaf!
The gift of man was to be freed from generations of piled up trauma that elves endured.
Quite the gift.
No wonder there is a sense of melancholy surrounding the elves.
One of the inconsistencies in all this is Beren being brought back to life. Was there some prophecy of Mandos that compelled him to do so when confronted with Luthien? And if so, how did Mandos manage such a thing when it didn't seem that mankind were in his wheelhouse? Also, if the Elves were re-embodied after death, why weren't Feanor and his sons sent back to ME, and Thingol, Gilgalad, etc.? I still don't really understand what Tolkien was suggesting there.
As stated in The Silmarillion, it was not Mandos (or the Valar). It was an Act of God:
"But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; nor could he change the fates of the Children of Ilúvatar. He went therefore to Manwë, Lord of the Valar, who governed the world under the hand of Ilúvatar; and Manwë sought counsel in his inmost thought, where the will of Ilúvatar was revealed."
The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Luthien
You know, if Eru just straight up, told the humans that once they die, they would be hanging out with him creating the second music then all of this would’ve been solved.
Execellently explained. There are clear paralells to the greek mythology. Gods and half gods are immortal, but they are jealously about the mortal humans.
Elves were made to live in the undying lands but born in Middle Earth.
It required an act of obedience and acceptance to go there
Adam and Eve anyone?
What about the Moriquendi, who never went to Aman? Do these also end up in the halls of Mandos if they are slain in Middle Earth?