The Kinderhook Plates
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- Опубликовано: 16 окт 2024
- In 1843, Joseph Smith was presented with a set of brass plates pulled from an Indian burial mound, and determined that they were a record of a descendant of Ham in the Bible. The resulting history of the plates would prove a blessing and a curse to the Mormon faith.
Further information:
www.mormonthink...
Music Credits:
"Relaxing Piano Music" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0
creativecommons...
Source: incompetech.com...
Artist: incompetech.com/
I served a faithful 2 year mission, taught Sunday school, held multiple callings, and believed it all with my whole heart. I discovered this and the other colossal lies of the Mormon church in 2012. I removed my name from the records and started my life anew.
@@smdh99 Thank you Julie! I am enjoying my new life so much! I hope you are too!
That's awesome so glad you found the truth have a blessed life😁🤗 we got out too.
Been there, done that, when I found out it was a lie, I felt devastated.
We love you brother and sister ..that my message to you..
What happend to your testimony?
Too bad the internet and RUclips were not around when I was young. I would not have wasted decades in an untrue church.
Where you able to break away without harassment? Did it cost you friends/family?
No difference between mormons
And christians
Even if I give you tangible proof, you'll have an excuse not to accept it just like you made an exception for prophets after the OT, when you said there were NO Prophets after the OT. But even in light of that I'll give you one bit of proof of Mormonism. The church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints stands or falls on the truth of the Book of Mormon. So with that as a back drop, Joseph showed 11 other people the golden plates from which those translations came.
They signed their names to the truthfulness of those records and never denied them their whole lives even when a few of them fell away from the church they NEVER denied seeing and touching those records.
Testimony of the Three witnesses
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris
Testimonies of the eight witnesses:
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.
Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith
So my brother I've given proof of Authority and proof of the Truthfulness of the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints and now you are entitled to do whatever you may with that info.
But as you know we're accountable for ALL our choices.
Klarity*11 all religions are mythology so don’t sweat it! Not many people can see through it immediately. I believed it till we got to evolution and dinosaurs in school. It was one of those omg moments when it fell into place that it’s all bullshit
naya, it would be extremely unreasonable to assume that these men weren’t bribed or paid off to keep quiet about this entire thing. That is not evidence.
This video should have way more views. Well done. It should also be said that Joseph was the editor for the Times and Seasons. Joseph would have approved the broadside that was printed with the translations. He never issued a retraction.
Finally! Modern and quality! Something legitimate and factual without the "anger". Something powerful that TBM's shouldn't be intimidated by. Very very good.
Please Mormon informant we need more videos, I love them!
I really want to show my bf is wrong, but in a gentle and non-combative way. Thank you for making these 🐦🐦🐦
I hope they help! :)
I find it disturbing that anyone who was not/is not an archaeologist digs up what must certainly be a grave and then proceeds to remove the body and any possessions with it. The grave and its contents were placed that way for a reason.
More people need your help.
post more videos. I have learned So much in two videos.
+Rude Red There are more on the way. Be sure to subscribe! :)
+The Mormon Informant I have. Remember me when this channel blows up huge.
Thank you so much for revealing the truth and all your pain staking research . You are Awesome !!!
Well done. Thank you for doing this. I love how fact of the matter and non-emotional you are. Your word choice don't have misleading connotations. Truly brilliant work!
Love the pleasant music and your soothing voice ~
More of Joseph's Myth
I'm reading the excellent book "No one knows my history" by Brodie. I complete my reading with your videos !
Martin Tessier Sacred heart...
jum hitty what do you mean ?
Martin Tessier Your profile picture
jum hitty Yes, I've understood that you were talking about my profile picture, but why ? :)
Get Book. It's a keeper
This was awesome. Great composition, music and graphics, great video. I'm contributing monthly at the CES Letter. I hope some of that donation is supporting this effort as well.
+Lorin Capson Nope, we do this for free, but I'm glad you liked it! :)
The church unapologetically covers this up (or should I state, “the Church’s lack of coverage on the topic of these plates and Joseph’s translation should prove to those searching for answers that the church clearly HAS NO WORDS for this embarrassing revelation. They wish to let it slide until they absolutely HAVE to make a statement on the topic because they know the repercussions are NOT in their favor!)…. I am 44 years old and forced to do my own research because I want to keep my beliefs. Very sad day!
Ask them to show these plates. See what they tell you. Always an excuse because it's all story and they never dug them up. If it's real like they want you to believe, then ask them to present the plates
I understand your confusion, but these are a different set of plates that were discovered years after the Book of Mormon had been published. They never belonged to the church, and the only remaining plate is property of the Chicago Historical Society. Watch the video to learn their history.
The original plates supposedly used to produce the Book of Mormon were dug out of Hill Cumorah in Upstate New York, and were given back to angel Moroni when the translation was complete, thus making it conveniently impossible for the church to present the plates as proof.
The stone box apparently slid down the hill over time, and its current location is unknown. I personally don't believe there ever was a stone box, but this is the official narrative. www.ldsliving.com/What-Ever-Happened-to-the-Box-the-Gold-Plates-Were-In/s/81545
He was unfortunately murdered, do you mean went out in a gunfight and killing two men before being shot.
Yes, he defended himself in a gunfight using a smuggled Ethan Allen pepperbox pistol that jammed after two shots before finally being murdered. A victim of murder is no less a victim because they fought back.
@@TheMormonInformant
True, I was being sarcastic.
I enjoy all the videos you make and the information you provide, keep up the good work and I hope to see more videos soon.
I was always told the martyr story growing up in the church and not many people know he went out in a gunfight. That could be a great video about why he was in jail and what happened prior to his death, drinking with, no wearing garments etc.
Amazing how not a single comment contradicts your video content....? Everyone who commented seems super excited about your videos and they all express themselves in a similar way
You must not have read very far. There are plenty who try to contradict my content. They generally suck at it, but they do try.
@@TheMormonInformant you're good ! You're politely telling me i suck, well done
I wasn't. I was referring to those who previously attempted to contradict my content. If you read those comment threads, you will see for yourself how well they defended their positions.
@@TheMormonInformant how well they defended yet they suck.... nevermind
Right. Not very well at all. Hence, the sucking.
more plz...
more plz
Kill the music and theatrics. Just give us the info. The bass in the audio alone was giving me a headache by trying to hear your voice over it. BUT good info. Thanks.
🔈🔉🔊🎼🎵🎶🎷🎺🎸🎻🥁🎹
The sound quality on this is weird
...sorry?
CUT THE DAM MUSIC!!..cant hear you!
🔈🔉🔊🎼🎵🎶🎷🎺🎸🎻🥁🎹
😄😄😄😄😄
I like the music. It is appropriate; It needs to be soothing because it is revealing what is a painful truth to some,
i.e that Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
Joseph never saw these plates in person.
Yes he did. Both Brigham Young and William Clayton traced the plates in their journals and numerous witnesses recorded that the plates were brought to Joseph and examined by him. Facsimiles were made from the plates and published in the Nauvoo Neighbor. Joseph had to have had access to them in order to produce those facsimiles and publish them.
You LEFT OUT the part where Joseph did a SECULAR translation based off the materials he'd been given. No evidence, ever, has come forward to show he translated more than perhaps a sentence or two. Again, which was done using the Egyptian alphabet he was given.
How he made his interpretation is irrelevant. The relevant part is that he was fooled by nonsense hieroglyphs, confidently offered a partial translation, and promised a full translation as soon as it was completed. There is no indication that he ever saw through the ruse, or that he changed his mind in regards to the full translation.
@@TheMormonInformant it absolutely is relevant. anyone can be fooled by mis/disinformation or hoaxes. they're all over the internet and social media. this is especially true for someone who has very little formal education and was making a translation based off what information he had. again, that's my understanding which isn't perfect. there's the potential that he got way ahead of himself and hoped or believed it was something that just it clearly wasn't. but a full translation I believe never happened.
@@kylesdanthebig Joseph also didn't know Egyptian, but offered a translation of papyri based off of the information he had. This resulted in the Book of Abraham, which doesn't match the words of any of the papyri he was translating from. Kinda seems like there's a pattern here.
If Joseph smith translated these where is the document? Where is the translation? How do you know he translated it? This video doesn’t explain that. If you believe this you’re gullible.
“I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth.”
-Joseph Smith May 1, 1843, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, ed. B. H. Roberts, 2nd ed. rev. (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1957), 5:372.
"The contents of the Plates, together with a Fac-Simile of the same, will be published in the 'Times & Seasons,' as soon as the translation is completed."
-“A Brief Account of the Discovery of the Brass Plates Recently Taken from a Mound near Kinderhook, Pike County, Illinois,” (Taylor & Woodruff, June 24, 1843)
@@TheMormonInformant Stanley Kimball came out and said the reason why Joseph smith thought they were legitimate was because there were similar characters on the kinderhook plates that were on the facsimiles. You’re only painting a small section of the big picture with this video. The other interesting thing about the kinderhook plates is Joseph Smith wasn’t that surprised with plates coming out of the ground enough for him to attempt to translate them. It’s like he had seen something similar before. Interesting....
@@qualitymachineautomation8386 _"...Joseph smith thought they were legitimate..."_
Then regardless of the reason, he had no power of discernment. The fact that he offered a partial translation and promised a full one means he fell for the hoax, hook, line, and sinker, and was willing to produce his interpretation of absolute nonsense.
The fact that he offered even his partial translation shows his translation abilities to be fraudulent, especially when coupled with his even more fraudulent translation of the Book of Abraham from the Breathing Permit of Horus.
_"It’s like Joseph had seen something similar before."_
Or that he had already claimed to have seen something like them before and it bolstered his narrative and gave him a convenient opportunity to affirm his powers as a translator to his followers.
@@TheMormonInformant ya but if he claimed he had seen something similar before wouldn’t he think this was a little fishy? If he lied about finding gold plates in the ground then a period of time later someone comes to him and says hey look I also found something. Wouldn’t he think they might be lying? Or maybe he was just stupid? And if he was stupid how did he make up a book like the Book of Mormon and convince thousands of people including educated and influential people to believe him?
Also that quote of Joseph smith wasn’t a direct quote. It was taking out of William claytons notebook and he was speaking in first person
sorry ... the plates joseph ... and 24 other people saw and handled were not kinderhook plates ... every description of them is different.
however they do validate record keeping on metal plates.
That is incorrect. A facsimile of the plates was published in the Times and Seasons, showing the exact size, shape, and characters of the plates. Brigham Young also traced one in his journal. The extant plate matches the facsimiles and tracings, and the church has since admitted that the plates were a hoax. They are therefore not a validation of record keeping on metal plates.
imgur.com/cHWVUNj
mormonitemusings.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/brigham-young-journal-kinderhook-plate-tracing-may-3-18431.jpg
www.lds.org/ensign/1981/08/kinderhook-plates-brought-to-joseph-smith-appear-to-be-a-nineteenth-century-hoax?lang=eng
ha ha ha ... false.
"and the church has since admitted that the plates were a hoax"
false and total nonsense.
See the link: www.lds.org/ensign/1981/08/kinderhook-plates-brought-to-joseph-smith-appear-to-be-a-nineteenth-century-hoax?lang=eng
it was ahoax ...and joseph smith did not fall for it.
He never translated these plates
He translated a portion, and offered to publish a full translation as soon as it was completed.
archive.org/stream/historyofchurcho05churrich#page/372/mode/2up
i.imgur.com/cHWVUNj.jpg
He was killed soon after.
@@TheMormonInformant history of the church is not doctrine, never was doctrine, and won’t ever be either. If you’re the “informant,” you should know that. Also, of JS thought the plates were real, why didn’t he translate the whole thing and give it the Book of Mormon treatment? This wasn’t the first time someone tries to fool him and wasn’t the last.
@Ready Joe Where did I claim that it was doctrine? History of the church is what it says it is: a history. William Clayton recorded that Joseph claimed to have translated a portion, and the church leaders who compiled the history included his first hand account of Joseph's statement. Joseph was the editor of the Times and Seasons when it published his promise to complete a translation. As far as why he didn't translate the whole thing, he was killed before he would have had time to do so.
@@TheMormonInformant The myths are sometimes stronger than the facts. The fact is that Oliver Cowdry was excommunicated and then later on went back to the Church. So if that is your source it isn't really in your defense. There were many earl apostates that gave false representations of Joseph Smith. Many of them returned and some went and begged for JS forgiveness. The fact that you copy and paste something from the Church as you main source is you implying that it is what the Church itself is admitting.
@Ready Joe Apostates didn't write History of the Church, and William Clayton wasn't an apostate when he recorded Joseph's statement about the plates. HOC was edited by active apostles and published by Brigham Young. So unless you want to say that Brigham Young and his apostles were untrustworthy, this is as good a source as any.
The Mormon Informant as soon as you create a program as effective as the church humanitarian program and a Doctrine as inspiring and life-changing as what is found in the restored Church and cause Millions upon millions of people to change their lives for the better and not just tear down people's faith and fill their heads with doubt that's when I'll listen. Your videos do not inspire people to help others live better more Christ like lives. If you root out a beautiful living plant and have nothing better to replace it with, then you aren't achieving anything besides destruction. Why don't you do some videos about how many people the church humanitarian system helps and the love and sacrifice that is given by missionaries, and all of the good things that the church does? do you have a humanitarian system that you have that I should know about?
I deal in truth, Devin. If you dispute the truth of any of my claims, I'd be happy to substantiate them. I'm not interested in a competition to determine who has a bigger humanitarian program. That is irrelevant to the truth.
Your videos only make me love the LDS church more. When I see derogatory presentations against my church I know Satan wouldn't waste his time blasting a church that isn't the truth. The holy ghost always whispers to me " by their fruits you may know then". Our fruits speak for themselves.
@@Khig494 By your logic all churches are true. If it's an atheist vs religion or religion vs religion each side is going to claim that the other is wrong and that the opposing side is being influenced by Satan or any other evil diety.
Your reason for claiming your church is true is able to be used to defend most if not all religions.
Most of the time the only ones who aren't lying or trying to cover things up are the athiests and they are the ones trying to have an honest discussion.
I wouldn't back up any belief saying it's true because people are attacking it and then demonize the people attacking it.
@@Raze120 I am merely suggesting , why don't you use your energy to help mankind rather than degrade other's beliefs. Our religion teaches us not to talk unkindly about anyone's beliefs christian, muslum, athiest etc. So God bless you.
@@CrustyRusty366 Luckily our Hell for mankind is much smaller then others. Do you not think that we dont think that say "Mother Theresa" went straight to the highest kingdom in Heaven. Of course. We certainly don't think we are the only ones to be saved. God is too merciful for that. Ours is considered "True" because it contains the "fullness of the gospel".
Come back to Christ, all ye led astray by Mohammed and Joseph
Why?
@@TheMormonInformant because Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light
@@loganbrown3565 Prove it.
In your missive you state that the church once espoused the fact that Joseph Smith claimed to have translated the plates, but now disavows such contention and you state that this is contradicted “by the historical record.” THAT, my dear wolf in sheep’s clothing, is what you would call “a conclusory statement,” and as such you’d have your self righteous butt thrown out of any courtroom. Tell the viewer WHAT historical record! True the church once posted a statement wherein Joseph was purported to have said of the plates “I have translated a portion.” BUT later, it was found that such statement was from the diary of a third person, and the original wording was “President Joseph translated,” not “I.” Thus, the accuracy of a third party diary constitutes the maximum of your proof. STOP with the conclusory statements. If you don’t agree with the church then CITE FACTS, not unnamed sources. BTW, I’d love to see you explain Hebrew Chiasmus in the Book of Mormon. That would be a trick!
I cited several examples of the church embracing the plates as genuine, if you were paying attention. First, the statement in History of the Church, as you mentioned, which was recorded by Joseph's personal scribe, William Clayton. Almost every revelation and statement Smith ever gave was recorded "second hand" by scribe, so why is this one any less credible?
archive.org/stream/historyofchurcho05churrich#page/372/mode/2up
Second, a broadside published in Times and Seasons promised a full translation of the plates as soon as it was completed. As editor of Times and Seasons, Joseph allowed this promise to be printed.
imgur.com/cHWVUNj
Third, an article in the Improvement Era claimed that the plates were genuine, and lent credibility to the story of gold plates as a writing medium, and Joseph's translation abilities as a prophet.
archive.org/stream/improvementera6509unse#page/n21/mode/2up
As a fun bonus, there are still some today who think they do the LDS church a service by defending the plates authenticity. While they don't represent the church as a whole, they continue to defend sentiments expressed in the past regarding the plates.
www.ancienthistoricalresearchfoundation.com/index.php/item/511-reclaim-kinderhook-plates
I would love to discuss the prevalence of chiastic structure in writings by non-Hebrew authors contemporary to Smith, but this article should suffice:
www.mormonthink.com/glossary/chiasmus.htm
When all else fails just jump to another topic, eh Icriedtoday? Chiasmus is found in ubiquitously in western literature, and often unitentionally so. It is a style humanity has written in for centuries, and is found in fiction, non-fiction and dramatic works. The Book of Mormon is pseudopigrypha at best, but not holy or historical.
yeah, if the facts are not on your side, then "argue the argument." Fact, Joseph Smith NEVER claimed to have translated the Kinderhook plates and, if you know what you're talking about, then you have to violate Exodus 20:16 to say so. Fact, the Book of Mormon cannot be an invention of Joseph Smith inasmuch as it contains Hebrew chiasmus which was not known at his time. In your response, feel free to switch to ANY argument you want to refute that! Hey, here's a thought: Why not search out "Book of Mormon and Chiasmus" in youtube and find out for yourself? It's better than the non-sequitur "your switching arguments."
By your unreasonable standard, Joseph never claimed to have seen God and Jesus as seperate beings, because that version of his vision was recorded second hand by his scribe. If you accept scribes as authoritatively representing Joseph's claims, then you must accept that Joseph offered an interpretation of hoaxed plates. If you don't accept second hand reports of what Joseph supposedly said, then you must throw out nearly all of Mormonism. If you pick and choose which scribes statements are credible arbitrarily, then you are intellectually dishonest.
Book of Mormon chiasms quickly fall apart when scrutinized. Several authors who were contemporaries of Smith employed chiastic form in their writing, including James Strang, Modeste Gruau, Gilbert J. Hunt, John Taylor, and even Joseph himself in his own journal. Chiasmus is not exclusive to Hebrews, and its debatable presence in the Book of Mormon is not conclusive evidence of anything in this case.
www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V38N04_105.pdf
packham.n4m.org/linguist.htm#CHIASMUS
user.xmission.com/~plporter/lds/voree.htm
ruclips.net/video/GAGasQ7j_ZI/видео.html&t=51m57s
Icriedtoday please, give examples of verses in the book of mormon that contain Hebraic Chiasmus. I'm sure we can work through this together to verify that this chiasmus proves the veracity of the book
So where is your truth in life? What do you live for? If you have nothing to offer as the way to live your life, then leave me alone to believe as I wish -- to you it will make no difference in the end -- but to me it will be a life better lived, and a happier family.
I believe the entire world benefits when each individual's beliefs are aligned with what is real and true. Seeing anyone hold a belief that is false or harmful motivates me to debunk that belief. That is the purpose of this channel. I haven't forced you to watch any of my videos, and you can leave anytime you wish. But if truth matters to you, I invite you to stick around and examine my claims.
Actually JS started translation on them, couldn't figure them out and lost complete interest in them. He actually forgot about them for a long time. Then once he was killed and rumors spread around that he was in the middle of translating them even though he had lost complete interest in them. Since they were never made scripture at all then the case of The Kinderhook Plates actually helps the LDS belief.
You're going to have to prove that he lost interest in them, because all of the evidence I have shared indicates almost two months between offering his partial translation on May 1st and publishing an article promising a future complete translation on June 24. That's almost two months that he maintained interest, and he never gave any indication after that point that he had given up on translation.
Given that other translation efforts had taken him multiple years, and that he spent his last year alive constantly evading the law, he would have had no time to complete the translation. The fact he never produced his promised translation says nothing about his interest in eventually doing so.
@@TheMormonInformant well there is 0 mention of it in the Doctrine and Covenants. Yet he has mention of every other book he wrote or was writing. If you want me to find proof of him losing interest your going to have to give me time, but it's pretty dang obvious that they were a total joke to him.
@@zachlarsen5324 Joseph produced only two entries in the Doctrine and Covenants between getting the plates and his death, 131 and 132, both on the topic of eternal marriage. There is no reason why either one would have contained mention of his translation efforts. The scarcity of revelation also reveals how busy he was in his final year.
@@zachlarsen5324 There is also Mormon testimony that his plan was to finish the translation but he was killed and so never had the chance.
Ive done some research on this...
Turns out that Joseph Smith never claimed to have translated any part of the kinderhook plates. The quote "I have translated.." in the "History of the Church" was never given by Joseph; as was common at the time, it was written using the diaries of other members in Nauvoo but changed into first person. At the time, many people were speculating about the plates in Nauvoo and the news articles reflected this with contradictions. It is true that the kinderhook plates were a hoax, designed to make a joke of him, but the truth of it is also that Joseph Smith never fell for the hoax. Comparing this video to the research I did, im afraid that i see that this video is not reflective of what actually happened. That's just from my research, and I encourage anyone who is confused about these plates to study it more and you will find out what actually happened.
God bless you all.
Joseph Smith employed scribes for the majority of his adult life. As such, there is almost nothing that he ever wrote "first hand." Every scripture, revelation, or quote from Joseph is technically "second-hand" or "hearsay." The man responsible for the quote was William Clayton, Joseph's most trusted friend and scribe at the time. In fact, William had spent the entire day with Joseph, sealing him to one of his wives, and getting his opinion on the plates. He would not have written Joseph's interpretation of the plates if one had not been provided to him by Joseph.
Joseph also allowed a broadside to be printed (in a newspaper he owned and edited) which promised to publish the contents of the plates "as soon as the translation was completed," which strongly suggests that he fell for the hoax, and that the translation had begun. He was murdered before he could make good on that promise.
imgur.com/cHWVUNj
In 1843, the plates were taken to Nauvoo twice. The first time, the idea of a "translation" only comes from the writings of others, and the inaccuracy of their accounts is evidenced by the fact that there was much discussion and rumours around the topic; Some said that the man with which the plates were found was an Egyptian, and others called him a Jaredite. We do not assert that these differing reports about what Joseph had "said" are correct, so it does not stand to logic that the report that he had begun a translation should be taken as correct either.
The second time that the plates were in Nauvoo, it is debatable that Joseph saw them this time, and the only thing that we do know is that the "Nauvoo Neighbour" produced facsimiles of them before they were taken back to Wiley. In November 15th 1843, Wiley had the plates back and was offering to sell them to a "national institute". If a translation had begun, then to do this, Wiley would be selling the fake artefact to the National Institute. The fact that it was a hoax to trick Joseph meant that if he was successful in convincing Joseph to "translate" his plates, then he would need to reveal afterwards that the plates were fake in order to accomplish his design. The problem is, that if he did this, the National Institute would discover that Wiley had deliberately sold the faked artefacts, and he would be heavily fined or taken to jail. If Joseph had fallen for the hoax and begun a translation, then Wiley would not attempt to sell the Kinderhook plates, as it would eliminate his purpose of exposing Joseph. Therefore, we can conclude that by November 1843, Wiley had possession of the plates and had decided to sell them instead, which means that Joseph had not fallen for the hoax.
This, along with that there is no manuscripts or other evidence of a translation which would have by your estimation been taking place for almost a year by the time of his death, all suggest that Joseph never actually translated the Kinderhook Plates.
I apologise for the long explanation, but I do assert that it is inaccurate to claim that Joseph spent time working on the Kinderhook plates before his Murder.
God Bless.
"The contents of the plates, together with a Fac-Simile of the same, will be published in the "Times and Seasons" as soon as the translation is completed." -Apostles John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff, June 24, 1843
"President Joseph has translated a portion and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." -William Clayton, official church scribe
The fact that some people disagreed on details of the contents of the plates does not mean that Joseph never offered an interpretation. That is a complete non sequitur. Also, Joseph took over seven years to translate the Book of Abraham, and his final year was a very busy one, so one would not expect a great deal of progress in only one year. Even if he never began the full translation, the above quotes strongly suggest that he intended to, and that he had fallen for the hoax.
Either Joseph was fooled and translated hoaxed plates, or two current apostles and future prophets, as well as the official church scribe fell for the hoax and lied about Joseph's interpretation and intended translation. Either way you slice it, it doesn't look good.
I do not intend to offend you by suggesting that your mind may change, but "it doesn't look good" suggests that you know that it is possible that Joseph never translated the Kinderhook plates.
Regarding the quote you give:
FIRST QUOTE: J TAYLOR AND W WOODRUFF
The point "Joseph also allowed a broadside to be printed (in a newspaper he owned and edited)" is untrue, as Joseph was only an editor for the newspaper for a period of seven months in 1842 wherein he told early church history in the paper. There is hence no affirmation that Joseph ever saw the paper before print, "allowed it", or had any control over the rumours existing in Nauvoo in 1843. I do however agree that Taylor and Woodruff were the editors of the article you sent me, and i would have to look into why they allowed an unconfirmed conclusion to be drawn and offered to the public.
SECOND QUOTE: W CLAYTON
"The fact that some people disagreed on details of the contents of the plates" does, however, explain why William Clayton wrote this second quote you have sent me. Another similar but contrasting quote is from Parley P Pratt. From an article on the plates: " Pratt heard of a discovery in Pike County; Clayton said Adams County. Clayton said that the find was made six feet underground; Pratt, fifteen. Elder Pratt spoke of a cement vase-an item mentioned in no other account. Clayton mentioned a skeleton nine feet tall-also unmentioned in any other account. Clayton said that the plates gave a history of an Egyptian; Pratt mentioned a Jaredite." "The elements that these two accounts have in common suggest a basic jist to the hearsay stories circulating in Nauvoo and also that Joseph Smith with others saw and wondered about the nature of the material that had been brought to Nauvoo." "And the actual presence of William Clayton or Parley P. Pratt in any discussion on the topic with Joseph Smith is simply unknown."
Further,
Could you please explain why Wiley would both have _possession of_ and be _attempting to sell_ the plates to the National Institute if Joseph had fallen for the hoax?
Upon revealing that the plates were fake, he would have been thrown in jail or heavily fined for selling faked artefacts. Therefore, we KNOW that by November, the ones who had originally designed to trick Joseph had no intention of revealing the plates as a hoax, which makes _no sense_ if Joseph had begun a translation. Surely, this is why Wiley resorted to selling them instead.
Also, there is no written or other formal declaration about the plates in any of the general conferences or church statements and there is no translation manuscript. If Joseph Smith Jr had begun translating the plates as you suggest, there is a distinct lack of material for such a conclusion. Did the Twelve, Emma Smith, the hundreds of men and women that Joseph knew just happen to refrain from recording anything further about the plates which (you suggest) that they, along with the prophet, considered divine and on par with the book of Mormon? For an entire year? No.
These things to me can only point to a conclusion that the plates were never translated, and they were dismissed after a short period of public excitement.
I understand that your own review of the evidence has produced a differing conclusion to mine, and I hope that you consider my points, as I have yours.
Thanks once more, and God bless you.
Joseph himself owned a copy of the broadside, and never issued a retraction. Being fully aware of its contents and not denouncing its claims is the same as allowing them. There were several retractions in the past that prove that it would be uncommon for Joseph to allow falsehoods to persist in his church's media arm.
Regarding Clayton's quote, Don Bradley established that Clayton had excellent access to Joseph's opinion;
"So, for Clayton to _not_ know whether Joseph has translated from the Kinderhook plates, he would have needed to never discuss that matter with Joseph directly, even though, as Clayton says in later affidavits, he was with Joseph nearly every day. Clayton would’ve needed to here rumor that Joseph had translated, and of specifically what he had translated, but again not raised the subject with Joseph. And Clayton would have to be curious enough to write about the Kinderhook plates at length in his journal, at Joseph’s house, trace the plate into his journal, listen to the idol rumors going around about it, and record those, but not curious enough to actually ask Joseph about the plates, even when he’s closely involved with Joseph that day, and he has the ideal opportunity to ask. The plates are on display at Joseph’s house that day, he’s at Joseph’s house through much of the day, he has supper with him, and so on."
_Could you please explain why Wiley would both have possession of and be attempting to sell the plates to the National Institute if Joseph had fallen for the hoax?_
Wiley was a fraud, just like Mark Hoffman. He set out to fool a prophet, found out that he was good at it, and tried to profit from it. The hoax didn't necessarily have to be intended to expose Joseph to the public. He very well could have done it for the same reason Hoffman did his fakes. For his own amusement, for wielding power, and eventually for money. Hoffman also sold fakes after finding his intended audience fooled.
_Also, there is no written or other formal declaration about the plates in any of the general conferences or church statements and there is no translation manuscript._
History of the Church was produced by the church in 1902, and included Clayton's quote.
There is also a 1962 Improvement Era article that calls the plates genuine and suggests that they support the Book of Mormon and metal plates as a writing medium. This was published by the LDS church in its official magazine. archive.org/stream/improvementera6509unse#page/n21/mode/2up
The plates were also tested several times by the church in the late 70's and 80's, which would not have been necessary if they were already believed to be fake. It wasn't until 1981 that the church officially gave its opinion that they were a hoax. In the 138 years previous, the only references to the plates in LDS publications confirmed the church's position that they were genuine, and that Joseph had translated a portion. They were not, as you say, dismissed after a short period of excitement.
This seems like an anti Christ RUclips channel. I thought it was going in a positive direction, but was able to see the crafty sleaze instantly.
So anything that isn't positive about the LDS church is automatically "crafty sleaze?"
@@TheMormonInformant anything that is designed to steal, kill, and destroy is not of Christ. This places doubt, dissolves testimony, and is rather irrelevant to the primary pillars of testimony.
"anything that is designed to steal, kill, and destroy is not of Christ"
Has this video caused loss, death, or destruction?
@@TheMormonInformant One lady commented and said that she resigned her faith right after she learned more about this. I think spiritual loss is more severe than physical harm or death. That is what we need to be careful about. Things that aren't doctrine tends to lead us off the straight and narrow path. Instead of focusing on temple attendance, living gospel principles, and coming unto Christ in the process, we're letting Kinderhook plates and white salamander stories choke the word and we wander in forbidden paths and are lost.
What leads you to believe that any of those things are important?
Why do people feel the constant need to bring down my religion? If you don't believe in it, so be it. Even if you don't think it's true, there is no need to make a fuss against us. Go on about your life peacefully. Don't try to turn others against us because our beliefs are incomprehensible to you individually. There is a difference between being an atheist (someone without religion) and being a bigot (someone simply intolerant towards differing opinions). Just let those who believe in it, believe it. It does not impact you in the slightest. Don't try to bring us down for believing something different to you. Instead of trying to prove us wrong, why can't you just leave us be?
The LDS church has a force of 70,946 missionaries knocking on doors and seeking to convert others to their way of thinking. The church also gets involved with politics quite regularly. Let me know when they decide to cease both activities and leave me alone, and then we'll discuss leaving the church alone.
I gave 25 years of my life to the LDS church. I found out that I had been lied to regarding church history and doctrine. When I see others being lied to, I feel a sense of duty to expose the deception. If there comes a time that the church is completely honest and transparent about its history, doctrine, and policies, this channel will no longer be needed. Until then, I intend to balance the scales.
The Mormon Informant well said.
@@TheMormonInformant as soon as you create a program as effective as the church humanitarian program and a Doctrine as inspiring and life-changing as what is found in the restored Church and cause Millions upon millions of people to change their lives for the better and not just tear down people's faith and fill their heads without that's when I'll listen. Your videos do not inspire people to help others live better more Christ like lives. If you root out a beautiful living plant and have nothing better to replace it with, then you aren't achieving anything besides destruction.
“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed”. (J. Reuben Clark, The Church Years, p. 24)
“If a faith will not bear to be investigated, if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundations must be very weak.” (George A. Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol 14, p. 216)
“The Church stands or falls on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed, his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an imposter cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect..." Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol 1. p. 188)
To answer your question about why people feel the constant need to bring down your religion... Well, some people (myself included) suffered religious abuse from your church...Many of us were tormented for years and years and years! That being said, we are not trying to "turn others against" the church, but it would be morally wrong of us to sit in silence, knowing that this kind of abuse (and IT IS abuse...Child abuse) is happening and then not doing anything about it. Have you checked out the suicide rate among LDS youth? Well, I have...and it's significantly higher than the national average. Also, while you're looking at those stats, check out which state prescribes the most antidepressant medications....Spoiler alert, it's Utah!....but that's just a coincidence, right?
So, surely you can see that we CANNOT just "leave you be" as you requested...and we're not trying to "prove you wrong" but i think you would agree that every member AND prospective member should be provided with ALL the facts about the church including church history, church doctrine, and church policies and procedures....The prophet and apostles have stated in recent years that they plan to be completely transparent and honest in every way concerning these matters. I sure hope they'll keep their word on that..
When the plates were found they had acid used on them to see the readings, this would account for the acid being detected and ruining the chances of them to be legitimately studied. Good try.
Are you claiming that the plates were truly ancient? Because the LDS church officially recognizes them as a hoax.
This video has now been soundly debunked thank goodness
Prove it.
@@TheMormonInformant Before I refute this claim, I want you to understand I do not represent the Church in its entirety.
That being said, let's look at the facts.
We know for a fact that the Kinderhook plates were forged and that they contained random symbols. We can both agree on that. We can also accept that the source text Joseph was using his unsuccessful attempt at translating the non-reformed Egyptian language. www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/grammar-and-alphabet-of-the-egyptian-language-circa-july-circa-november-1835/10
Stating common ground first helps us come to a better conclusion. Firstly, the report that Joseph gave in his publication never actually proved that what he was translating was valid or not since it mirrors the exact passage written about the U shaped symbol on one of the plates in his attempts at translating Egyptian. If anything, he never wrote that much more about it since the symbols on the plates were utterly bogus. It is essentially the exact same as the interpretation on the 4th page of the GAEL.
Furthermore, your source says in the page that
*"The Ensign verifies how busy Joseph was at the time. Also, Joseph said, "...he would not agree to translate them until they were sent to the Antiquarian society at Philadelphia, France, and England." Perhaps Joseph was still waiting for a definitive statement from the Antiquarian Society stating the plates were authentic before he would attempt a full translation as he didn't want to take the chance that he was being set up."*
I see nothing wrong with this statement. It may beg the question: why wasn't the Book of Mormon handled the same way?
That I am still figuring out an answer to.
This ultimately proves that Joseph never took the plates that seriously and that the "speculation" that he was going to publish them as the next Book of Mormon scripture isn't substantiated. In the source that you provided, a passage goes:
*"Also, translations sometimes take time - Joseph spent several years translating the relatively short Book of Abraham, unlike the much larger Book of Mormon that reportedly took 80-90 days to transcribe."*
I'll admit, the Book of Abraham deserves more investigation. I know that there is a piece of the puzzle that needs to be researched more, however, for this comment, I am strickly going to adhere to the topic of the Kinderhook plates. What this means is it goes to show that he wasn't using divine interpretation by the Lord or God in any way, shape, or form.
The editor goes on to say that this is faulty reasoning to assume that Joseph didn't take the plates seriously. This claim isn't substantiated. The only quote Joseph ever gave about the interpretation of the plates is shown on the publication he made which you showed in the video. His description is virtually the same from the symbol he assumed could mean: "honor by birth, kingly power by the line of Pharoah. possession by birth one who reigns upon his throne universally- possessor of heaven and earth, and of the blessings of the earth."
FAIR has a response to this.
"Corroborating this is a letter in the New York Herald for May 30th, 1843, from someone who signed as "A Gentile." Research shows "A Gentile" to be a friendly non-Mormon then living in Nauvoo:
The plates are evidently brass, and are covered on both sides with hieroglyphics. They were brought up and shown to Joseph Smith. He compared them, in my presence, with his Egyptian Alphabet…and they are evidently the same characters. He therefore will be able to decipher them."
According to the the FAIR institution for the Latter-day Saint Church, they conclude: "We know that Joseph was interested in languages. He studied Greek, Hebrew, and German in a secular manner. Therefore, we can easily believe that he attempted to translate the Kinderhook plates without assuming prophetic powers, which powers consequently remain credible."
This is part of the response that I have for this flawed dichotomy. Just because a bunch of people got duped into this who mess doesn't mean that Joseph got fooled by the plates, and that the church isn't true as a result. It is simply too skewed of a picture to accept this as the ultimate truth. I hate to say this, but you hold the church to an unreasonable standard. People make mistakes in their judgment. Get over it.
Nothing you have claimed debunks any of the facts listed in this video. Joseph offered an interpretation of hoaxed plates. He was fooled. The spirit of discernment failed him. It doesn't matter if he pulled his interpretation from another source (which is an apologist hypothetical that can't be proven). He still offered an interpretation, and promised to publish a full translation in the church's official newspaper. The fact that he had no time to complete that translation does nothing to debunk the fact that he fell for the hoax and interpreted fake plates.
The Mormon Informant,
Bruh...
Just because he assumed they were legit at first and then attempted the best crack at it he could and then failed doesn’t make a dent in his credibility. You got this wrong. These aren’t my “claims”... this is evidence that you seem to ignore. If anything, your video lacks a sound basis of reasoning, since it appears the arguments you present were fermented in an echo chamber.
I also admitted that people make mistakes. Even Joseph said he wasn’t perfect. Quit holding him up to unreasonable standard because you are doing your audience a disfavor.
With your reasoning, if I saw an unknown text that I knew nothing about without google translate, and took a crack at guessing what it could’ve meant knowing the language I know, is there anything wrong with guessing what it could’ve said knowing what you currently know?
Again, this argument that you have presented doesn’t harm his credibility. It did trick members, but it certainly didn’t mean that the Church is false when there are a million other truths in the Church and good things that the Church does. I’m not trying to ad hominem you, but your channel’s existence must be miserable, tearing down a faith and leading many people astray with faulty reasoning and picking low hanging fruit. I’ll respond with more evidence when I have the time.
"Just because he assumed they were legit at first and then attempted the best crack at it he could and then failed doesn’t make a dent in his credibility."
This is your opinion, and you are welcome to hold it, but it doesn't disprove anything claimed in the video.
Basement dwelling internet trolls cannot dissuade anyone from the unsolicited holy spirit that accompanies an honest study and faithful adherence to all things Mormon.
Your use of ad hominem reveals your impotence to refute any of the information I have presented.
They pillaged a sacred area...and are proud of it? What a bunch of 💩