Some additional thoughts/corrections: 1) For the sake of legibility, I've chosen to simplify the notation for these riffs. I've included only the root notes, not the full power chords, and unless there's a specific rhythmic figure worth highlighting I've left out the strumming patterns and just shown where the notes change. I also just decided that the clip length I used (4-5 seconds in most cases) was 4 bars long and did my durations that way instead of counting snare hits. (in a couple cases, for unusually short clips, I used 2 bars.) I also just put them in whichever octave let me avoid ledger lines. The point was to convey the shapes of the riffs, and this simplified notation felt like it made those shapes clearer. Honestly if it weren't for the fact that my brand is wrapped up in staff paper, I probably would've preferred to show these riffs in guitar tab to emphasize the physical closeness of certain notes. 2) The disclaimer about music theorists talking about punk applies to a lot of other countercultural, underground styles as well, most notably hip-hop. In fact, my decision to include it stemmed largely from thinking about the things I was unhappy with in my older videos about hip-hop, and I wish I'd included similar discussions there as well. 3) One point that I didn't really fit into the script but that I hope was clear from the examples I used is that, while riffs are largely defined by the guitar part, they tend to be reflected in the rest of the band as well. Vocal phrases, drum patterns, and of course bass lines all typically draw their structure from the underlying riff. 4) A lot of different things have been called pop punk over the years, and many of them do fit into more traditional punk aesthetics. The pop punk I was referring to was specifically the early-2000s mainstream wave. 5) Yes, both the people I could find doing music theory scholarship about punk are named David. It's confusing. 6) I know Blitzkrieg Bop isn't hardcore punk, but it was the first example I could think of and, in true punk spirit, I couldn't be bothered to find a better one. 7) I wanted to include a longer section on rhythms, but I couldn't find any scholarship on it? The existing literature is very sparse on punk in general, Easley's work is more focused on riff schemes, and while Pearson does talk about rhythm, that's mostly in the context of time feels in the drums, not rhythmic patterns in the riffs. Anyway, from what I've found, punk riff rhythms tend to involve holding (well, strumming) long notes and moving those around occasionally, either on the beats or with slight anticipations. (typically 8th notes at the tempo I'm notating.) When they're anticipated, they're also often actually held over for a moment, replacing the attack on the next beat. This often comes in the form of a tresillo, or 3-3-2 rhythmic grouping pattern. The other common rhythmic move I saw was the one-attack stab, where a string of one note was interrupted by a single hit of another one, typically a perfect 4th up, before dropping back down. These stabs may be combined with those anticipations I was talking about earlier, as in, say, Black Flag's Nervous Breakdown, or they can be on the beat. Because these are based on my own observations, not rigorous corpus analysis, I wasn't confident enough to include them in the video, but in case you want some guidance on rhythms those are some things to play around with. The big thing to keep in mind, though, seems to be that you want rhythms that move enough to be exciting, but sit still enough to be comfortable to play. 8) When talking about the physical motion of the minor 3rd, my point isn't that it's hard to play. It's not! It's pretty easy! My point is that, because of the physical constraints of punk, it's always worth considering the precise motions required, because no motion is free. 9) The actual names Easley gave the various schemes are longer than the ones I used 'cause he was writing an academic paper so he's allowed to do that sort of thing, but for the sake of brevity I cut them down to the shortest length that conveys the intent. Just putting this note here in case anyone actually reads his paper. (which you can do here: mtosmt.org/issues/mto.15.21.1/mto.15.21.1.easley.html also, the Pearson paper is here: mtosmt.org/issues/mto.19.25.1/mto.19.25.1.pearson.html ) 11) If you're wondering why a small streak appears on the page around 10 minutes, that's because my sibling threw a tootsie roll at me and some of the pigment from the wrapper rubbed off on the page. 12tone is a very professional operation.
It would be interesting to compare and contrast a group like Operation Ivy using this framework. Bankshot seems to align with this on the guitar, but the bass creates a more complex feel.
I’ve always said that bands like Nirvana, Green Day and Bikini Kill’s riffs are some of the easiest in the world to play, but you’ll never write a Nirvana or Green Day song without being an incredible musician. Heck, I’ve been trying to do just that for most of my adult life, and I still haven’t mastered it like Iggy Pop or Pat Smear have! Writing punk is very much like writing a children’s books or baking a great cake in that sense. Everyone thinks they could do it, but it takes genuine skill and dedication to truly master it
I honestly don´t think that the above mentioned bands used their music theory knowledge to write. Kurt Cobain for example famously had no music theory knowledge and I know for a fact that it is not required to have any to write awesome songs. I agree punk isn´t easy to master, but music theory isn´t part of the equation. It is a tool to understand music. Good theorist are rarely good songwriters. That´s probably because capturing emotion is so much more important than understanding theory.
I can attest to this. I started my guitar and bass journey with Green Day. Even going so far as to blindfold myself and play the songs. It can be easy to play, but that’s not the point. It’s easy to play, but hard to master writing it.
As a former punk guitarist, I think this is an excellent breakdown and analysis. And as you said in the closing, it isn't that theory and musicality don't matter. It's simply that mood and message matter more.
Can I ask you for advice, as a guitarist who is trying to start a punk band, but doesn't know what they're doing? Lol I've been playing for a couple years, listening, but it's only now that I realize I don't want to make a "boring punk" record in my future.
@@erikkublack4523 Are you kidding? Not knowing what you're doing is the BEST way to start a punk band!🤣 Seriously, just go for it. Write your own songs. Listen to different genres and think about how you can "punkify" them. Throw some barre chords under a Shakespeare sonnet, etc. But whatever you do, make it yours. The only way you can be boring is if you try to sound like everyone else.
I'm so glad you mentioned the level of skill needed to be a punk icon. I love listening to DK as they clearly understand music to the point they are able to reflect the lyrical meanings in the music in a far more nuanced way than a lot of pink artists. Think the marching drums in California Uber Alles, the tension in Riot, the cowboy stereotypes in Winnebago Warrior, religious chants in Moral Majority, the doo wop in Kill The Poor. Whether it's intentional or not, they were able to clearly portray complex themes within the limits of a punk aesthetic and arrangement. RIP Peligro
The refusal to accept that there’s no point in fighting back- an absolutely quintessential pillar of punk. Maybe the only thing that ties all punk genres together. What a beautifully concise and accurate proposal. Fuckin’ bravo dude. Love this.
Yet at the same time apathy is also a quintessential pillar of punk. Throwing up your hands and saying everything is fucked and nothing matters so let's make a lot of noise about it.
I’m a lifelong fan of punk music, especially hardcore punk, thank you for doing this. I’ve been getting back into a bit of music theory and I like being able to see examples from things that I know and are familiar.
For sure. It’s so enlightening to see how things that I could only feel before being broken down into terminology that IMO completely makes sense. In some ways it’s quite surreal as my other approaches to understanding music theory start with the theory and then I try to hear that in pieces of music, but in this case the descriptions match up accurately with what I’ve already experienced and how I think about punk rock (without ever having anything concrete to call any of it).
That's the great thing about 12Tone. He presents songs we know through his knowledge of music theory. Even if the song wasn't written with this same level of understanding of music theory, it still grants lots of insight into songwriting. I'd like to think these videos make me a better songwriter, but that remains to be seen.
A friend once described his band's sound as "Half-steps, tritones, and changing time signatures." Some (more than one might imagine) punk rockers do know a bit of theory.
Nicely done! You nailed it, especially the point towards the end that punk is fundamentally about energy, not any specific formal element or technique.
thank you for paying genuine respect to a genre that doesn't get a lot of it, and especially thanks for highlighting how the sociopolitical culture surrounding punk is absolutely crucial to understanding it as an art form, a lot of people just see it as angry kids being mad and making noise, and never questioning *why* we're angry and making noise
As a lifelong punk and hardcore fan, I think this video is fan-fucking-tastic. I'd love to see a follow up where you compare and contrast 80's hardcore with contemporary hardcore
@1:41 to answer: Yeah its okay to study this because even tho we are punks and bastard, we are still passionate about music and we should never repress our curiosity to grow and learn and dive into a hobby just to « fit in » or by fear of judgement from others.. if it helps it helps if it doesnt it doesnt
As a former punk rocker, I'm glad you did this. Even though I can be quite certain it's overly analytical. The reality is, we weren't thinking that hard about it and we were just learning from those who came before us. This is great! Thank you
You may not have been thinking that hard about it, but that's one of the things that fascinates me about theory... it looks at all the different parts and figures out the 'why' part. If someone teaches you a few power chords so you can play punk you and you listen to a lot of punk you'll pick these things up by ear. There are often weird reasons we do things. Theory just tries to figure out why. Why does poetry rhyme and come in verse? I can't say for sure, but it sure is easier to memorize a bunch of lines if there is a rhyme scheme and verses, and lots of ancient tales that were written down long after they were first composed were done that way. It happens to sound cool too. If you lived in one particular place at a particular time everyone would have been writing a particular style of poem. You may not have realized that you were writing sonnets differently in England than in Italy, but someone decided 'this is how you do it' and everyone else copied it, partially because they liked it, but partially because once everyone got used to it one way it sounded wrong to do it any other way. I play harmonica. If someone tells me they are playing blues in the key of E I grab an A harmonica. I don't need to know that that's because it gives me easy access to E Mixolydian mode if I start on the 2 draw, and there are charts to show me that (and Lee Oskar models actually are labeled so they show 1st and 2nd position, so if I have LOs I can just look at the harmonica) but if I want to go down the rabbit hole I can memorize the circle of fifths and that will tell me what harp to grab, and if I want to understand why the circle tells me what harp to grab I can look at the key signatures for each key, the harp layout chart, and the note pattern for Mixolydian mode, and suddenly it will make sense why... (at least conceptually... the memorization is a whole different level... but with just a little work I can get the functional part down and have a basic understanding. It's not that I need to have that understanding, but that what makes it work is a particular structure... in the case of the harmonica, it's that it's missing some notes from the diatonic scale and that draw notes have a different timbre than blow notes, and someone a long time ago learned how to exploit that, and all the rest of us just copied that. :)
well studying music theory literally is being overly analytical over everything, and that's a good thing imo, it helps understanding "why does this sound so good"
Greg Ginn from Black Flag is one of my favorite guitarists. When he is playing a solo there are no wrong notes. His playing can be described as psychotic.
Greg's style is very deliberate and he uses the same techniques in most of his bands. I personally love his solos but he's definitely not randomly noodling
Amazing video. As someone who grew up in So cal playing in hardcore punk bands, this is spot on. Most of us didn’t really know theory and just did what we thought “sounded cool”, but when I looked back and analyzed my songs and many other popular ones, I saw a lot of these exact patterns. Great video as always!! 🙌🙌
I was quite literally working on writing a 70s style hardcore punk song to be the end credit song in a movie I'm doing the sound/composing for. This video could not have been more timely, and I thank you for this video. It helped me finish the song!
I think I am a person that is pretty well versed in punk but also play a lot of other music, this video was absolutely great and interpreted punk in its video pretty good!
“I don’t want to abandon my responsibility of care.” This right here is why the answer (collectively) to your VERY good questions is: you are being, well, responsible. You have every right to ask these. They’re good questions. Important questions. They actually speak very well to the issue of punk rock as a whole. The questions being asked imply the answers.
@@toddpacker4683 I tend to lean towards Sheena is a Punk Rocker, but ya, as a kid Ramones were to rock and roll for me...but time has broken me, and i've come to accept Ramones as pretty frikkin rad. In moderation lol
Objectively false, i dont think ive met more than one or two punk kids who have anything to say about the ramones besides "will you shut up about the ramones?"
@@poopymcmonke That's weird. Kind of like someone who says they love classic rock but wants people to shut up about the Beatles I suppose; the originals are well known, and to some who are actively seeking new forms they seem cliché. Most people grow out of that phase of art snobbery though, and start to enjoy tracing the roots of the thing they love. Where would we be without the Who and Iggy Pop in the sixties, after all?
@@aaronwebb1548 im not stating any opinion either way on the ramones, im js thats what i hear more often. I dont really have any strong opinions about older punk bands. They're okay, but i wouldnt fight to defend or discredit them bc punk kids opinions on pretty much anything can vary a lot and i dont even really indulge in the conversation abt whats punk and whats not
Something I always love about these videos is how much they make me want to think about music, and really appreciate it. I haven't taken any music theory courses or even played in a long time, but every video, regardless of the music being studied, pushes me closer to picking up an instrument again, and when I have the chance I definitely will.
I've been trying to make punk for a while but I just started leaning in the most right now and it is very hard. So perfect timing for a video like this! Thank you!!
I think the most important thing for punk is that it is angry as fuck and doing that with your amp turned up while not being alltogether great at your instrument lol.
@@theothertonydutch you have to be pretty good at your instrument. The drummer is usually goated. Every DK riff is pretty exhausting on the upper frets. The best punk is really emotional
As a life long punk fan and "musician" I was very skeptical about this video at first. You were very respectful of the genre and did an excellent job breaking down some many classics. I love this channel and I love your work. Keep it up!
I was very pleasantly surprised to hear not one, but two cuts from Jerry’ Kids featured in your breakdowns. The Boston HC scene was vibrant and they were one of the early pillars of that scene.
As a hardcore fan and musician, THANK YOU for talking about this on your channel. I've wanted to do some hc music theory analyses for a while but just never got around to it. There needs to be more discussion of hardcore music theory!
When I was in a punk band this is mostly what I was thinking when I was creating it, but I didn’t have the words to explain it. I feel like this is pretty spot on for how I wrote guitar parts.
Being VERY unfamiliar with classic Hardcore Punk beyond the Ramones, each clip definitely spoke to everything that came *after* that I am familiar with in more modern punk and in British New Wave Metal. First few samples literally made me think "That sounds like what Motorhead and Judas Priest would do." And I think the timeline of releases supports this. Most of those punk songs are late 70's, informing how the British New Wave formed just a few years later I feel like if there's any genres shared in theming of rebellion, rage, and distortion, those two are punk and metal. But they do it differently, and both have their crucial place in culture.
Just for clarity's sake, "the new wave of British heavy metal" is generally thought of as a movement that was mostly late '70s-early '80s, and hardcore punk happened *slightly* later. Most would say it started in the early '80s. Bad Brains' first full-length record was '82, for instance (although their first 7" came out in 1980, which gave it time to influence everyone else on the east coast before the LP came out). I can't speak with a scholar's expertise, but my impression is that the movements happened more or less independently of each other on opposite sides of the pond because the bands weren't quite big enough to permeate each other's cultures within a couple of years.
@@forestcochran4196 British punk was already big in local scenes by that time though. I can imagine bands like Judas Priest coming more from hard rock and glam, but it would be hard for Motorhead to deny having punk influences. Iron Maiden's bassist may claim there's no punk at all in their music but I'm sure their debut vocalist would think otherwise. Influences cited by the band explain elements like the harmonizing guitars, but not their new-in-metal rhythms and tempos, or songs like Sanctuary. Not a scholar either but to me heavy metal and punk and their subgenres were always on a feedback loop from then on and each got richer by borrowing things from the other, from Black Flag to contemporary extreme metal. I like a nice metal album as much as a good hardcore punk one, but I think that for some reason (snobbery towards "inept" punks? claims to originality?) many metal bands and listeners got a penchant for denying the relationship between the two scenes. It happened again with hardcore punk and thrash metal, grindcore and death metal etc, even early 00's post-hardcore got rebadged as post-metal once metalheads took a liking to it. If you want to have a laugh, go listen to some Voivod - widely considered to be one of the most distinct metal bands with many original elements - then listen to Die Kreuzen having done the exact same things earlier, but from a hardcore punk perspective - and see if anybody knows them or if the metal band ever admitted having listened to them.
@@PinkAsAPistol My statement was only in regards to the early hardcore punk movement influencing the British heavy metal wave of the late '70s-early '80s. Again, I could be wrong. I only meant to say that my impression was that in the early years, these guys weren't doing a lot of touring outside of their regions or outside of the country, and they didn't have much label backing, hence the creation of Dischord. I don't think of the Ramones or their New York contemporaries in the '70s as being in the hardcore scene, for the record. They definitely influenced all of the above, and they got pretty popular pretty quickly.
@@forestcochran4196 Ah yes, that seems to make sense. Most hardcore punk bands didn't manage to release their albums before 1980 and I wouldn't bet that any punk influences on NWOBHM albums of that year came from an LP by the Germs and an EP by Black Flag from 1979.
I'm in a punk band for the first time and I was amazed how many changes and different parts there are in a song less than 2 minutes long, but it's easy when your average BPM is around 235
@@dotsvg8482 No worries. Back in the day we all called each other posers. It was a fun way to rib your friends. Just wanted to give the commenter encouragement and a little friendly meme.
I'd argue that Public Enemy's It Takes A Nation OF Millions To Hold Us Back is way more punk than a lot of bands that "sound" punk. Punk for me is just way more about fearless expression than a particular sound. That's just my opinion though.@@joelowdon1615
Wow that was surprisingly accurate spread across so much punk history. I liked the nofx era of punk where there’s more harmony and stuff, but I remember listening to the old school stuff years ago and trying to remember the patterns and make my own riffs. I was never angry enough honestly so I like that ya brought that part up. Then I got into metal and forgot about a lot of these abrupt aggressive power chord transitions I used to destroy my 13 year old fingers playing.
I've always thought of punk as akin to musical haiku. Generally minimalistic, trying to get the point across in 2 minutes or less, via basic 3 chord song structures. To me the beauty is in the rejection of the non-essential elements, and distilling it down to the raw (pure?) message
This video actually helps a lot! Puts a lot of my ideas on the basics of writing fast hardcore riffs into perfect words. My only thing is that punk and hardcore did a unique evolution in the late 80's/early 90's that took all the principles of repetition/alterations and combined with sick one note melodic lines, and even fleshed out harmonies, vocally and instrumentally, with chord progressions. Combined elements of thrash metal with crossover hardcore (prime examples being RKL and DRI.) And also melodic hardcore (ex. NOFX and Descendents, and especially Bad Religion,) respectfully. Throw in Reagge/Ska influence and you get the whole package. And like you said pop punk is a whole other box of frogs lol. I'd love to see more on the punk genre as a whole from this channel. But anyway thanks for the vid! 👍
@@diydylana3151 ??? What? Pop punk is bigger than that... It's more complex in how punk, and by extension, punk AND Hip-Hop became popular by extension. And @12tone didn't touch on because they were extensions of their roots. And as people like to forget sometimes, they are cousins in music history... So idk I get your point, but understand his want to keep it succinct...
Thank you for taking punk seriously. I dont want punk to be taught in college, I think jazz died in a academic setting. But I really respect you doing this outside of a academic setting.
Essential video, really. I have musicology / music degrees and I play various genre of extreme music from grindcore to death metal, this used to be one of my favourite subjects to try and explain to my classmates who were all coming from classical or jazz and had a very vertical / chord based approach to music. I think you've pretty much nailed it with your explanation, it works in pretty much all punk based music and can be extended to a lot of early extreme metal as well. I would just add a little bit of nuance when mentioning Dead Kennedys, because their riffs are very different from usual punk fare as they are HUGELY influenced by surf music and generally instrumental rock (they tend to have a more melodic, single note based take than power-chord based), but I'd say they are a perfect case study for the importance of interpretation in punk music and extreme music in general. The thing with punk riffing is that it's so much about interpretation that you can pretty much bring in whatever you want in the mix as long as you get the interpretation (and the songwriting) right. Like I mentioned, Dead Kennedys has a very surf-music influenced writing and so does Agent Orange ; Poison Idea uses a lot of blues scale / pentatonic based riffing ; the Bad Brains started as jazz fusion musicians and later reggage and they bring both of that to their riffing, etc etc etc. There is so much to say about this, especially if you start to look into the regional scenes and their differences. Swedish and Finnish hardcore punk for examples are extremely different despite being close neighbours with the same influences ; France has a completely unique minimalistic punk scene where you can find the first example of "melodic" hardcore and punk influenced by traditional popular music, Japan has heavy-metal influenced bands with flamboyant guitar solos, etc etc. I'm really happy to see someone going a little bit into the theory around punk. For people who aren't part of this particular writing style, it's a welcome start to understanding. Last thing I'd say is that if you look at it, punk and its derivatives functions very much like traditional music, with a modal / melodic base and "oral" transmission - where oral and memory are mostly being handled through records and their trading.
@@diydylana3151 I don't know of any resources that look at it from a musicology standpoint. But the book and movie American Hardcore give a good run down of pretty much all styles. Erich Keller has some good write ups on his old blog, but it's tied to specific bands. Hardcore punk is still a vastly complex genre to define, it's difficult to explain, you really need to listen first.
This is a great discussion because it's so difficult to explain. It's kinda like you either get it or you don't. I grew up in the NYHC scene and there were many bands that were neither hardcore nor punk involved in the scene. I've seen rap groups, avante garde noise, funk and all kinds of other bands play at hardcore shows. Candiria used to play at a lot of hardcore shows & they were mostly death metal mixed with jazz & rap. The doom metal genre is also quite diverse & eccentric these days. I'm a big doom fan & most of my favorite bands sound nothing like each other. Yob is considered doom & they don't really sound like the other bands in that genre.
Very true about the DK surf influence. There has been a lot of surf influence in punk. DK is probably the first & most notable example. The rockabilly influence in punk is also very interesting. Bands like the Cramps & eventually psychobilly music. I guess psychobilly would be considered a form of punk. At least to me it is.
I'm the guitarist for a hardcore band and this helped a lot!! I'm still a begginer so I'm kinda bad (or it's because I'm 10) but I think your video is really cool!! :D
Something that I think is important to add to this analysis, especially in larger song structure (not just note by note theory) is crowd interaction. The start of hardcore punk was also what birthed moshing/slam dancing, stage diving, and most aggressive crowd interactions that other genre's have (poorly, imo) borrowed from. HC song structures are quite varied, and don't really follow the verse-chorus-verse-chorus sort of structure, especially in the later years to present. What ties them all together is the kind of energy the band wants to bring to a live setting, and how they want the crowd to move. Some examples from the 81 to 85 era: Minor Threat: In My Eyes: this song has 3 distinct parts, an intro, a slower "sing along", and a fast explosive part. The slower part with the syncopated hits is where you go up to the stage, and Ian passes you the mic on all the loud parts, and you pile ontop of your friends and people at the show, all yelling those parts. Right after the "Don't you fucking get it?" line, that's when you then jump off the stage, slam into everyone, and dance hard. SSD: Like Glue A lot like in my eyes, the fast "Gotta stick together" part is where the crowd all yells at Springa, and the slower parts are where you skank around and throw punches. This was basically cemented in law by the time the second wave of HC bands from 86 to 91 rolled around (especially the New York crowd), and you can see it with bands like Youth of Today, Breakdown, Outburst, and Raw Deal. There's a sort of mutual relationship between the crowd and the music the band is writing, that is ever evolving. A band will come up with a beat / rhythm, people in the crowd will find new ways to dance to it, other people in bands will want to play those rhythms to strike up those movements, and keep the energy and chaos up at shows. A sort of shorthand has been in place for decades now, where when you play this kind of beat / riff, you do this dance step / mosh move / crowd action to it. I would say this aspect of "how to write punk music" is far more important to understand than the riffs. It's more similar to Djing a party, where you're there to facilitate the crowd, than making a composition for a blues or jazz song. All about building and releasing tension in different ways. It's something that you're likely to miss if you're not involved in the live aspect, and only have exposure to listening to HC on records.
This is great, I love the 80s rawness and the 90s-todays hardcore which I would say is all based around rhythm now. The riffs have gotten slightly more metallic depending on what flavor of hardcore you listen to but they all share a grove. I feel like it’s mandatory to have a 2step and beatdown riff in most of today’s hardcore
For anyone who wants a good underground hardcore punk band, listen to Refused. They blend styles well and have some amazing riffs, but ones that specifically come to mind are New Noise, Liberation Frequency, and Born on the Outs.
@@joelowdon1615 apologies. I use the term underground loosely lol. I just meant lesser known. They are definitely post-hardcore, but also blend a lot of styles very well.
You're amazing! I love how you introduced hardcore punk by stating the genre's societal and political context, and then gave such a cool interpretation of art! Thank you so much for covering such an unconventional genre so gracefully and articulately.
For every new guitar I got, the first song I'd play was, "New Rose" by The Damned (as said by many, it's the perfect punk song). It's difficult, but it also gave me an idea for how to move on the fretboard. Side note: The guitar I had for many years in the late part of my career never got that treatment. Until the last show in March 2020. As we we were setting up, it came over the house system, and I set up by playing it. A year and a half later on a cross country flight, it broke in the luggage compartment. But it had its New Rose baptism at least.
@@jackielinde7568 Delta. Buffalo to Portland. There was extreme windsheer in Utah, and we got thrown around a lot, diverting out landing from SLC to Provo.Usually I take my guitar as carry on, but they gave me a free luggage pass. Even broken, I didn't bag-check it on the way back.
@@ChristyAbbey I had to ask, and make a joke at United's expense. There was a musician from Canada who was traveling to a contest in the US that flew United. He had a connecting flight where they were loading baggage into the belly when one of the passengers shouted, "Oh my god. They're throwing a guitar around." Sure enough, it was his guitar. And, when get got to his destination, he found they had broken his guitar. After calling around a while and being consistently told by United reps they would not fix his guitar, he told them he would write three songs. The first was titled "United Breaks Guitars." Here's a link to the video. I have one of the artist's solo albums. If you like folk, he's a good artist. ruclips.net/video/5YGc4zOqozo/видео.html&ab_channel=sonsofmaxwell
As a massive punk fan, you really did it justice in this video! I get so sick of people acting like all punk consists of is some boring mainstream pop punk bands when a lot of punk fans wouldn't even consider a lot of that garbage punk at all. You did a fantastic job, on the other hand, and obviously cared about getting this shit right. Great video!
I've been loving the new wave of hardcore/metalcore lately. Bands like Knocked Loose, Kublai Khan, Jesus Piece, Justice for the Damned, Gideon, Bodysnatcher, Boundaries, Great American Ghost, and Varials keep the spirit of angry punk music while adopting the extra aggression and clean playing from metal and dropping the tempo down to something a bit groovier. Oh, and breakdowns. Gotta love me some stupid heavy breakdowns.
I think that viewing these riffs in tablature can be a more helpful way to see how the guitarist interacts with chord/note progressions, because for a lot of punk musicians, the basic education they got was only a half-step up from 'Here's a chord, here's another, here's a third, now go start a band.' and a degree of rediscovery based on shapes, not theory, is how they get back to sounds that have theoretical reference.
I was literally thinking last night about how Pagefire is the only person making even remotely usable punk music theory vids and how much I hate watching theirs. Glad to see someone less irony poisoned take a stab at it
I was honestly thinking about this exact topic a few days ago! I was wanting to learn to write more punk rifts and you explained it well. Great drawings too!
Small note about power chords on guitar: at 5:42 you say “going up or down in 4ths requires an adjustment of…your strumming hand, creating a smaller but more complicated motion.” This isn’t quite true because your fretting hand is almost always muting the strings not being directly fretted, meaning your strumming hand can simply strike every string at once no matter the chord being played. Thus, no chord change is any more or less complicated for your strumming hand to complete. This only emphasizes your point about movement efficiency though.
Right! This is why you hear weird high-pitched dead notes in the background of a lot of punk guitar tracks. Their left hand is muting the top 2-3 strings almost always, but the string is still being hit. However, I would say that if someone is really thinking about picking economy and trying not to get tired, they usually do figure out after a couple years of doing the style how to mostly just hit the strings they're trying to play. As with all things, it depends.
That kinda sounds like bad technique to me 😬 I mean of course your fret hand will be muting extra strings but they still make a noise when struck. I think it would be better to develop a better focus on string selection with picking hand
@@mikatomik5532 lol yeah, punk music isn't necessarily known for good technique, but like I said I think some people do notice that it makes you tired to always hit all six strings and they focus their playing over time (sometimes).
@@mikatomik5532 it’s absolutely not bad technic. It’s crucial guitar technic for a lot more than punk music. Jimi Hendrix and SRV are good examples all six strings being stuck while muting the unwanted notes to get an aggressive sound and maintain an even strumming pattern.
Underground pop punk from new wave to 90s to present day is under rated and misunderstood. It’s still out there, most people just stay home and complain about why it sucks now because thats easier than going out and supporting the music in person. In my opinion it is so important to experience punk music in person. I hope that anybody reading this message goes to a show tonight, there’s one near you, somewhere, go find it!
As a big fan of black metal, being aware that not only does it have heavy influence and cross-over with punk, but that many similar criticisms are launched at that genre, I'd love to see a corollary video on that as well.
after watching your videos i always get those moments, when looking in the fridge i suddenly realise how you made me think more about music, and learn about something i already enjoyed, you're not a music educator, you're a superstar!
An interesting point is early hardcore is very fruitful in the terms of the music that derives from it and a lot of these techniques can be used onto that too. You can hear a lot of these ideas in thrash, post hardcore and the more aggressive forms of indie rock.
This is maybe not the right video to leave this comment on but I just wanted to thank you for these videos. I started watching your channel having almost no music theory or analysis understanding, and partly because of your videos I've started playing the piano and writing my own music at 42 years old, and these videos have been instrumental (heh) in developing my skill. So, thank you very much! Making my own music is literally a lifelong dream of mine and now I'm *actually doing it* - what a gift!
As an anti-establishment punk rocker, talking about the moral socio-ethical debate of whether or not discussing punk would be the right thing to do. Honestly punks are some of the most well informed people in regards to what is happening on a lot of things and by breaking down the genre from a mechanical standpoint is pretty punk and counter culture to the "rules" of established punk culture. Rock n roll 😎
Fantastic video, as a long time fan of punk I found it very interesting! I'd like to request you dive into a particular iconic punk song from when punk peaked in the 90s, Linoleum by NOFX. It is probably their most famous song and it has a strange structure. As a bonus, I have noticed a lot of youtubers react to that song and it typically draws a new audience to their channels so it might give you a little sub boost of punk fans that find your musical analysis interesting!
This was fantastic, i know for the sake of making a concise video you werent able to touch on everything, but i'd have loved to see some discussion on the prevalence of downstrokes in punk riffs, and the freedom that the bass usually has in embellishing the power chord riff by walking all over the place.
I feel that talking about punk in an analytical lense, doesnt take away the meaning of punk at all. Because we really dont give a shite about your opinion of the sound, all we care about. Is the message, and the inspiration of the artform to take action. Where the issue lies, is in the people like ben shabibo, who use "music theory" do either ignore, downplay, or outright mock the message and the issues being addressed.
what a fun analysis of my favorite kinda music! If you ever want to return to the genre again, I'd recommend taking a look at punk bass. To me, a lot of punk is found in the bass. It's where you find some more expressive note phrases and runs like you mentioned with metal at the beginning of the video. a lot of it also has some ancestry in the jamaican ska tradition that could be cool to look at.
7:58 Interesting, I came up with the idea of a statement/response analysis for riffs (metal riffs, in my case) on my own a while ago. It's cool to see someone with more musical training argue the exact same thing. Of course, I'm a prog metal nerd and I wanted to see how far I could push that structure, with my ultimate goal being to write a riff so long that it lasts for an entire song. Still haven't figured that one out lol
I wish someone actually took the time to talk about the music I love like this when I was a teenager. I might have actually started to care about music theory and learned how to read music. Instead I was facing rejection and ignorance and answered with just the same. Thank you for doing what you do! Good point at the end tho: Don't let professionalism and theory get in the way of artistic expression
This is a really cool video and long overdue! Nobody's ever talking about hc in terms of music theory! One thing I might say it's that you concentrated (understandably) on American HC more than the so called "punk rock" of the early days, wich was mainly English and influenced by other genres. HC somewhat ended up in a rut because of it's extreme and sometimes silly rukles, negating what the punk ethos was (and still is) in a way, but that's another thing. But I heard you examined The Minutemen as well, and (if you want to call them HC - they certainly were punk) they sound very much different from Minor Threat, Bad Brains or DK Anyway, I feel that in England and Europe HC sounded a bit different, not much in terms of attitude and message, but musically. I thing about band like Discharge (UK), The Nuns (SE), Betong Hysteria (NO), Negazione (IT), Kina (IT) to name a few. Good work! Thanks!
My favorite part of punk is that there are punk bands that are influenced by every other genre you could ever imagine. There seems to be a distinct habit of integrating personal flair into the underlying punk framework that I haven't quite seen elsewhere. My favorite band technically falls under the "post-hardcore" genre - it's so insane to me how bands can retain that ragged, unpolished sound while the music itself can be very intricate, polyrhythmic or polyphonic, or even beautiful. I was heavy into Green Day in middle school and the rough, simple structure that they put forth was so appealing. Seeing how complex that structure can be made while still retaining the raw angst and emotions that drew me in with Green Day is a very satisfying experience as a musician and as a listener. (Yes, I know Green Day is on the way lighter side of punk but I didn't get into heavier stuff until my 20s. Sue me lol)
The Repetition and Contrast Scheme is very reminiscent of blues progressions, with a call and response and a turnaround to close the segment (sometimes the verse, sometimes the line).
So there’s a way to approach this your kinda onto. I am a self taught guitarist, started with punk. So much of what I did learning was literally just experimenting. The 4th thing is so just the simplest most self evident way to get going. I feel like after you figure that out you explore outwards, and I genuinely feel most punk guitarists walked some experimental self guided path as such.
3:27 I disagree with the characterization of "many punk songs, especially in the hardcore scene, [being] above 300 BPM, with some even passing 400." You could maybe convince me that a lot of grindcore lives in this range, but for "ordinary" hardcore punk, as well as genres like thrash metal (a genre derivative of hardcore punk with elements of traditional heavy metal and speed metal), I think it makes a lot more sense and is a lot more useful to chop these tempos in half. It's more natural to think of "Prepare for Attack" by Havok as being 170 BPM rather than 340, and from my experience looking at tabs and references in these "fast" genres, this is what most people tend to do. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I don't think this characterization is the best and it seems most (at least most musicians in these genres) agree.
Great video once again. Interesting note about power chords - the Root / Fifth / Octave are of course the first three overtones of a fundamental an octave below, so our brains manufacture an implied fundamental, which makes the chord itself sound heavier.
This tutorial is like a small dream come true. Also, I love that the drawings are not actually mnemonics but mostly for entertainment, which makes me laugh when I have no idea why a specific thing is being put on paper.
Best explanation of this genre's fundamentals that I've eeeevverrr heard -- thank you so much for doing this ! !! I would be ecstatic if you did the same for more like bedroom pop, indie, garage rock, emo, math rock, etc. Cheers from Wisconsin
Great video. I learned a lot of terms for what I've been trying to do but I don't know music theory. It's good to know what some of the concepts I'm trying to apply actually are but I've just been doing it by ear.
Glad to see you've got all sorts of styles on your mind. I love metal personally, but seeing any different genres show up that aren't classic rock/pop/classical is always welcome even if I'm not super invested in whatever genre you're working with. I love this kind of video if you couldn't tell. To your first question, I don't think this is disrespectful in the slightest. Punk may consistently be anti-authoritarian but I see what you are doing is sorta bringing punk into an academic light rather than forcing academic values onto punk. *That* would be disrespectful but you've been very clear that applying any structures to punk is going to force approximations and accepting those clear imperfections is enough to make a useful set of concepts, that, as you said, are tools for writing and not the goal of punk itself. Ok, long comment just to say I think you did no disrespect to punk. :)
There was a video about bass playing in punk, and a bunch of us in the comments (including me) agreed that anyone who thinks that punk bass is easy has never tried to play the bassline for "Separation of Church and Skate" (NOFX)
For me, punk is that kind of music I love to listen to and could technically write, but man, I'm not _that_ angry... As you said at the end, the important thing in punk is the energy and anger, the feelings on the lyrics.
I would like to formally applaud you. This has been one of the best videos you’ve ever done. Thank you. Btw. You should sell copies of the sheets. I would buy the heck out of these.
On the topic of a music theorist analyzing music that’s against the norm I think it would be interesting for you to make a video on some of the more experimental genres that came out of it like the No Wave, Early industrial (example: Throbbing Gristle), and Noise scenes. (This is coming from a noise artist)
Punk musicians are some of the most technically gifted musicians out there. But to me the point of punk is the music, the message, and the people, not showing off decades of practice like the arena rock acts around them or the metal guys who fill their solos with every note possible.
been listening to a wide variety of punk for 20+ years now... regarding the ethics/usefulness of deconstructing and analysing punk music, I think it's absolutely useful and not "wrong" to do something seemingly "un-punk" about punk music. "What is punk?" is an impossible question to answer because there's almost 50 years of differing opinions and experiences - the sex pistols wore swastikas, the dead kennedys sang "nazi punks f**k off", neither more nor less punk than the other. For me, this sort of analysis is fascinating - you need to be careful not to be elitist or condescending, which I think you manage to do. Many punk musicians won't even know what they're doing on a theoretical level, they just know how to make the sound they like. They know the sound, the image, the mentality they are rebelling against and they know how to make a sound that is clashing and dissonant with that.
Some additional thoughts/corrections:
1) For the sake of legibility, I've chosen to simplify the notation for these riffs. I've included only the root notes, not the full power chords, and unless there's a specific rhythmic figure worth highlighting I've left out the strumming patterns and just shown where the notes change. I also just decided that the clip length I used (4-5 seconds in most cases) was 4 bars long and did my durations that way instead of counting snare hits. (in a couple cases, for unusually short clips, I used 2 bars.) I also just put them in whichever octave let me avoid ledger lines. The point was to convey the shapes of the riffs, and this simplified notation felt like it made those shapes clearer. Honestly if it weren't for the fact that my brand is wrapped up in staff paper, I probably would've preferred to show these riffs in guitar tab to emphasize the physical closeness of certain notes.
2) The disclaimer about music theorists talking about punk applies to a lot of other countercultural, underground styles as well, most notably hip-hop. In fact, my decision to include it stemmed largely from thinking about the things I was unhappy with in my older videos about hip-hop, and I wish I'd included similar discussions there as well.
3) One point that I didn't really fit into the script but that I hope was clear from the examples I used is that, while riffs are largely defined by the guitar part, they tend to be reflected in the rest of the band as well. Vocal phrases, drum patterns, and of course bass lines all typically draw their structure from the underlying riff.
4) A lot of different things have been called pop punk over the years, and many of them do fit into more traditional punk aesthetics. The pop punk I was referring to was specifically the early-2000s mainstream wave.
5) Yes, both the people I could find doing music theory scholarship about punk are named David. It's confusing.
6) I know Blitzkrieg Bop isn't hardcore punk, but it was the first example I could think of and, in true punk spirit, I couldn't be bothered to find a better one.
7) I wanted to include a longer section on rhythms, but I couldn't find any scholarship on it? The existing literature is very sparse on punk in general, Easley's work is more focused on riff schemes, and while Pearson does talk about rhythm, that's mostly in the context of time feels in the drums, not rhythmic patterns in the riffs. Anyway, from what I've found, punk riff rhythms tend to involve holding (well, strumming) long notes and moving those around occasionally, either on the beats or with slight anticipations. (typically 8th notes at the tempo I'm notating.) When they're anticipated, they're also often actually held over for a moment, replacing the attack on the next beat. This often comes in the form of a tresillo, or 3-3-2 rhythmic grouping pattern. The other common rhythmic move I saw was the one-attack stab, where a string of one note was interrupted by a single hit of another one, typically a perfect 4th up, before dropping back down. These stabs may be combined with those anticipations I was talking about earlier, as in, say, Black Flag's Nervous Breakdown, or they can be on the beat. Because these are based on my own observations, not rigorous corpus analysis, I wasn't confident enough to include them in the video, but in case you want some guidance on rhythms those are some things to play around with. The big thing to keep in mind, though, seems to be that you want rhythms that move enough to be exciting, but sit still enough to be comfortable to play.
8) When talking about the physical motion of the minor 3rd, my point isn't that it's hard to play. It's not! It's pretty easy! My point is that, because of the physical constraints of punk, it's always worth considering the precise motions required, because no motion is free.
9) The actual names Easley gave the various schemes are longer than the ones I used 'cause he was writing an academic paper so he's allowed to do that sort of thing, but for the sake of brevity I cut them down to the shortest length that conveys the intent. Just putting this note here in case anyone actually reads his paper. (which you can do here: mtosmt.org/issues/mto.15.21.1/mto.15.21.1.easley.html also, the Pearson paper is here: mtosmt.org/issues/mto.19.25.1/mto.19.25.1.pearson.html )
11) If you're wondering why a small streak appears on the page around 10 minutes, that's because my sibling threw a tootsie roll at me and some of the pigment from the wrapper rubbed off on the page. 12tone is a very professional operation.
Excellent video! I love how much care you put into making it and elaborating on decisions made and such. Very punk:3
It would be interesting to compare and contrast a group like Operation Ivy using this framework. Bankshot seems to align with this on the guitar, but the bass creates a more complex feel.
honestly, I thought the streak was my monitor - it really needs to be cleaned LOL
Well I can see the counterculture is still strong with you since you refuse to use the number 10 :D
@@SplotchTheCatThing i feel like i should understand that but i don’t, why not use ten? i really think i’ve heard that somewhere but hmm…
I’ve always said that bands like Nirvana, Green Day and Bikini Kill’s riffs are some of the easiest in the world to play, but you’ll never write a Nirvana or Green Day song without being an incredible musician. Heck, I’ve been trying to do just that for most of my adult life, and I still haven’t mastered it like Iggy Pop or Pat Smear have!
Writing punk is very much like writing a children’s books or baking a great cake in that sense. Everyone thinks they could do it, but it takes genuine skill and dedication to truly master it
Well said, I've been trying to write punk riffs too but they aren't as catchy as the popular bands.
I honestly don´t think that the above mentioned bands used their music theory knowledge to write. Kurt Cobain for example famously had no music theory knowledge and I know for a fact that it is not required to have any to write awesome songs.
I agree punk isn´t easy to master, but music theory isn´t part of the equation. It is a tool to understand music. Good theorist are rarely good songwriters.
That´s probably because capturing emotion is so much more important than understanding theory.
I can attest to this. I started my guitar and bass journey with Green Day. Even going so far as to blindfold myself and play the songs. It can be easy to play, but that’s not the point. It’s easy to play, but hard to master writing it.
@@circusbrains and?
Nirvana has easy riffs to play along to but not easy to master.
As a former punk guitarist, I think this is an excellent breakdown and analysis. And as you said in the closing, it isn't that theory and musicality don't matter. It's simply that mood and message matter more.
@ghost mall Very true! "Currently non-practicing" is probably more accurate 😂🤟
Can I ask you for advice, as a guitarist who is trying to start a punk band, but doesn't know what they're doing? Lol I've been playing for a couple years, listening, but it's only now that I realize I don't want to make a "boring punk" record in my future.
@@erikkublack4523 Are you kidding? Not knowing what you're doing is the BEST way to start a punk band!🤣 Seriously, just go for it. Write your own songs. Listen to different genres and think about how you can "punkify" them. Throw some barre chords under a Shakespeare sonnet, etc. But whatever you do, make it yours. The only way you can be boring is if you try to sound like everyone else.
Couldn’t said it better myself
what bands did you play in?
I'm so glad you mentioned the level of skill needed to be a punk icon. I love listening to DK as they clearly understand music to the point they are able to reflect the lyrical meanings in the music in a far more nuanced way than a lot of pink artists. Think the marching drums in California Uber Alles, the tension in Riot, the cowboy stereotypes in Winnebago Warrior, religious chants in Moral Majority, the doo wop in Kill The Poor. Whether it's intentional or not, they were able to clearly portray complex themes within the limits of a punk aesthetic and arrangement. RIP Peligro
My man RIP DH Peligro 🙏
Woah woah wait... I'm just learning this now 😢 REST IN POWER
DH Peligro ✊🏽
@@robdiesel1579 he was such a great drummer that’s sad :(
The refusal to accept that there’s no point in fighting back- an absolutely quintessential pillar of punk. Maybe the only thing that ties all punk genres together. What a beautifully concise and accurate proposal. Fuckin’ bravo dude. Love this.
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Yet at the same time apathy is also a quintessential pillar of punk. Throwing up your hands and saying everything is fucked and nothing matters so let's make a lot of noise about it.
@@ghostmall2421 literally directly after mentioning pop punk, 12tone makes it clear that they're NOT talking about pop punk lmao
I’m a lifelong fan of punk music, especially hardcore punk, thank you for doing this. I’ve been getting back into a bit of music theory and I like being able to see examples from things that I know and are familiar.
Ditto. Also seeing you take punk seriously, and actually get the point (mostly), is incredibly refreshing and welcome. Thank you!
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For sure. It’s so enlightening to see how things that I could only feel before being broken down into terminology that IMO completely makes sense. In some ways it’s quite surreal as my other approaches to understanding music theory start with the theory and then I try to hear that in pieces of music, but in this case the descriptions match up accurately with what I’ve already experienced and how I think about punk rock (without ever having anything concrete to call any of it).
That's the great thing about 12Tone. He presents songs we know through his knowledge of music theory. Even if the song wasn't written with this same level of understanding of music theory, it still grants lots of insight into songwriting. I'd like to think these videos make me a better songwriter, but that remains to be seen.
No expert… can you recommend me some bands?
A friend once described his band's sound as "Half-steps, tritones, and changing time signatures." Some (more than one might imagine) punk rockers do know a bit of theory.
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That sounds much more like metal that came out after the thrash boom rather than punk
@@dxfifa They were really more of a post-punk band. Definite metal/thrash/hardcore influences and bona fides for a couple of the band members.
And Bad Brains were a jazz fusion band before becoming punk icons.
@ghost_mall yep, why play fancy shit in 5/8 when you can say the same thing in 4/4?
If 12Tone keeps going, it's an eventuality they will hit Midwest emo
edit: I was made aware of 12Tones pronouns and fixed
One can only hope
YES id love to learn how to write that type of music
@@asoapshoeinthesea6780this.
they :)
12Tone going over Marietta would be legendary
Nicely done! You nailed it, especially the point towards the end that punk is fundamentally about energy, not any specific formal element or technique.
Your wife is a terf lol
We may be elitists, but we keep the barrier to entry very low
Dude, I watch your videos all the time, but I almost always seem to disagree with you.
thank you for paying genuine respect to a genre that doesn't get a lot of it, and especially thanks for highlighting how the sociopolitical culture surrounding punk is absolutely crucial to understanding it as an art form, a lot of people just see it as angry kids being mad and making noise, and never questioning *why* we're angry and making noise
As a lifelong punk and hardcore fan, I think this video is fan-fucking-tastic.
I'd love to see a follow up where you compare and contrast 80's hardcore with contemporary hardcore
i would love that too!
That would be so cool.
@1:41 to answer: Yeah its okay to study this because even tho we are punks and bastard, we are still passionate about music and we should never repress our curiosity to grow and learn and dive into a hobby just to « fit in » or by fear of judgement from others.. if it helps it helps if it doesnt it doesnt
As a former punk rocker, I'm glad you did this. Even though I can be quite certain it's overly analytical.
The reality is, we weren't thinking that hard about it and we were just learning from those who came before us.
This is great! Thank you
You may not have been thinking that hard about it, but that's one of the things that fascinates me about theory... it looks at all the different parts and figures out the 'why' part. If someone teaches you a few power chords so you can play punk you and you listen to a lot of punk you'll pick these things up by ear. There are often weird reasons we do things. Theory just tries to figure out why. Why does poetry rhyme and come in verse? I can't say for sure, but it sure is easier to memorize a bunch of lines if there is a rhyme scheme and verses, and lots of ancient tales that were written down long after they were first composed were done that way. It happens to sound cool too. If you lived in one particular place at a particular time everyone would have been writing a particular style of poem. You may not have realized that you were writing sonnets differently in England than in Italy, but someone decided 'this is how you do it' and everyone else copied it, partially because they liked it, but partially because once everyone got used to it one way it sounded wrong to do it any other way.
I play harmonica. If someone tells me they are playing blues in the key of E I grab an A harmonica. I don't need to know that that's because it gives me easy access to E Mixolydian mode if I start on the 2 draw, and there are charts to show me that (and Lee Oskar models actually are labeled so they show 1st and 2nd position, so if I have LOs I can just look at the harmonica) but if I want to go down the rabbit hole I can memorize the circle of fifths and that will tell me what harp to grab, and if I want to understand why the circle tells me what harp to grab I can look at the key signatures for each key, the harp layout chart, and the note pattern for Mixolydian mode, and suddenly it will make sense why... (at least conceptually... the memorization is a whole different level... but with just a little work I can get the functional part down and have a basic understanding. It's not that I need to have that understanding, but that what makes it work is a particular structure... in the case of the harmonica, it's that it's missing some notes from the diatonic scale and that draw notes have a different timbre than blow notes, and someone a long time ago learned how to exploit that, and all the rest of us just copied that. :)
@@nacoran absolutely right!
well studying music theory literally is being overly analytical over everything, and that's a good thing imo, it helps understanding "why does this sound so good"
I stg this freakin comment is in every single video. Sad how many people totally miss the point of theory and musical analysis
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Greg Ginn from Black Flag is one of my favorite guitarists. When he is playing a solo there are no wrong notes. His playing can be described as psychotic.
Yes. Gregg is one of my favourites as well.
He loves the grateful dead
Greg's style is very deliberate and he uses the same techniques in most of his bands.
I personally love his solos but he's definitely not randomly noodling
Amazing video. As someone who grew up in So cal playing in hardcore punk bands, this is spot on. Most of us didn’t really know theory and just did what we thought “sounded cool”, but when I looked back and analyzed my songs and many other popular ones, I saw a lot of these exact patterns. Great video as always!! 🙌🙌
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I was quite literally working on writing a 70s style hardcore punk song to be the end credit song in a movie I'm doing the sound/composing for. This video could not have been more timely, and I thank you for this video. It helped me finish the song!
You mean 80s? Lol
I think I am a person that is pretty well versed in punk but also play a lot of other music, this video was absolutely great and interpreted punk in its video pretty good!
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“I don’t want to abandon my responsibility of care.”
This right here is why the answer (collectively) to your VERY good questions is: you are being, well, responsible. You have every right to ask these. They’re good questions. Important questions. They actually speak very well to the issue of punk rock as a whole. The questions being asked imply the answers.
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Great song choices. You were right to include the Ramones. Every sub genre of punk loves the Ramones.
It’s true. Even the hardest “most punk” guy will be singing along to Suzy is a headbanger
@@toddpacker4683 I tend to lean towards Sheena is a Punk Rocker, but ya, as a kid Ramones were to rock and roll for me...but time has broken me, and i've come to accept Ramones as pretty frikkin rad. In moderation lol
Objectively false, i dont think ive met more than one or two punk kids who have anything to say about the ramones besides "will you shut up about the ramones?"
@@poopymcmonke That's weird. Kind of like someone who says they love classic rock but wants people to shut up about the Beatles I suppose; the originals are well known, and to some who are actively seeking new forms they seem cliché.
Most people grow out of that phase of art snobbery though, and start to enjoy tracing the roots of the thing they love. Where would we be without the Who and Iggy Pop in the sixties, after all?
@@aaronwebb1548 im not stating any opinion either way on the ramones, im js thats what i hear more often. I dont really have any strong opinions about older punk bands. They're okay, but i wouldnt fight to defend or discredit them bc punk kids opinions on pretty much anything can vary a lot and i dont even really indulge in the conversation abt whats punk and whats not
Something I always love about these videos is how much they make me want to think about music, and really appreciate it. I haven't taken any music theory courses or even played in a long time, but every video, regardless of the music being studied, pushes me closer to picking up an instrument again, and when I have the chance I definitely will.
I've been trying to make punk for a while but I just started leaning in the most right now and it is very hard. So perfect timing for a video like this! Thank you!!
I think the most important thing for punk is that it is angry as fuck and doing that with your amp turned up while not being alltogether great at your instrument lol.
@@theothertonydutch you have to be pretty good at your instrument. The drummer is usually goated.
Every DK riff is pretty exhausting on the upper frets.
The best punk is really emotional
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As a life long punk fan and "musician" I was very skeptical about this video at first. You were very respectful of the genre and did an excellent job breaking down some many classics. I love this channel and I love your work. Keep it up!
I was very pleasantly surprised to hear not one, but two cuts from Jerry’ Kids featured in your breakdowns. The Boston HC scene was vibrant and they were one of the early pillars of that scene.
As a hardcore fan and musician, THANK YOU for talking about this on your channel. I've wanted to do some hc music theory analyses for a while but just never got around to it. There needs to be more discussion of hardcore music theory!
When I was in a punk band this is mostly what I was thinking when I was creating it, but I didn’t have the words to explain it. I feel like this is pretty spot on for how I wrote guitar parts.
Being VERY unfamiliar with classic Hardcore Punk beyond the Ramones, each clip definitely spoke to everything that came *after* that I am familiar with in more modern punk and in British New Wave Metal. First few samples literally made me think "That sounds like what Motorhead and Judas Priest would do." And I think the timeline of releases supports this. Most of those punk songs are late 70's, informing how the British New Wave formed just a few years later I feel like if there's any genres shared in theming of rebellion, rage, and distortion, those two are punk and metal. But they do it differently, and both have their crucial place in culture.
Just for clarity's sake, "the new wave of British heavy metal" is generally thought of as a movement that was mostly late '70s-early '80s, and hardcore punk happened *slightly* later. Most would say it started in the early '80s. Bad Brains' first full-length record was '82, for instance (although their first 7" came out in 1980, which gave it time to influence everyone else on the east coast before the LP came out). I can't speak with a scholar's expertise, but my impression is that the movements happened more or less independently of each other on opposite sides of the pond because the bands weren't quite big enough to permeate each other's cultures within a couple of years.
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@@forestcochran4196 British punk was already big in local scenes by that time though. I can imagine bands like Judas Priest coming more from hard rock and glam, but it would be hard for Motorhead to deny having punk influences. Iron Maiden's bassist may claim there's no punk at all in their music but I'm sure their debut vocalist would think otherwise. Influences cited by the band explain elements like the harmonizing guitars, but not their new-in-metal rhythms and tempos, or songs like Sanctuary. Not a scholar either but to me heavy metal and punk and their subgenres were always on a feedback loop from then on and each got richer by borrowing things from the other, from Black Flag to contemporary extreme metal. I like a nice metal album as much as a good hardcore punk one, but I think that for some reason (snobbery towards "inept" punks? claims to originality?) many metal bands and listeners got a penchant for denying the relationship between the two scenes. It happened again with hardcore punk and thrash metal, grindcore and death metal etc, even early 00's post-hardcore got rebadged as post-metal once metalheads took a liking to it. If you want to have a laugh, go listen to some Voivod - widely considered to be one of the most distinct metal bands with many original elements - then listen to Die Kreuzen having done the exact same things earlier, but from a hardcore punk perspective - and see if anybody knows them or if the metal band ever admitted having listened to them.
@@PinkAsAPistol My statement was only in regards to the early hardcore punk movement influencing the British heavy metal wave of the late '70s-early '80s. Again, I could be wrong. I only meant to say that my impression was that in the early years, these guys weren't doing a lot of touring outside of their regions or outside of the country, and they didn't have much label backing, hence the creation of Dischord. I don't think of the Ramones or their New York contemporaries in the '70s as being in the hardcore scene, for the record. They definitely influenced all of the above, and they got pretty popular pretty quickly.
@@forestcochran4196 Ah yes, that seems to make sense. Most hardcore punk bands didn't manage to release their albums before 1980 and I wouldn't bet that any punk influences on NWOBHM albums of that year came from an LP by the Germs and an EP by Black Flag from 1979.
I'm in a punk band for the first time and I was amazed how many changes and different parts there are in a song less than 2 minutes long, but it's easy when your average BPM is around 235
I wish you success.
poser.
@@lyudmilapavlichenko7551 what's ur issue LMAO
@@dotsvg8482
Old punk joke.
Poser. 😂
@@lyudmilapavlichenko7551 fair enough lol but poser is just a common term so there was no way to know that was joke lmao
@@dotsvg8482
No worries.
Back in the day we all called each other posers. It was a fun way to rib your friends. Just wanted to give the commenter encouragement and a little friendly meme.
I think of punk as an attitude more than a sound, but I liked the analysis and was happy to hear a snippet of Murphy's law in there.
It's both. There's a lot of hip hop artists with punk attitudes but their sound is definitely not punk.
I'd argue that Public Enemy's It Takes A Nation OF Millions To Hold Us Back is way more punk than a lot of bands that "sound" punk. Punk for me is just way more about fearless expression than a particular sound. That's just my opinion though.@@joelowdon1615
Wow that was surprisingly accurate spread across so much punk history. I liked the nofx era of punk where there’s more harmony and stuff, but I remember listening to the old school stuff years ago and trying to remember the patterns and make my own riffs. I was never angry enough honestly so I like that ya brought that part up. Then I got into metal and forgot about a lot of these abrupt aggressive power chord transitions I used to destroy my 13 year old fingers playing.
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Man, go back to some Anthrax and it'll shred your hands up just the same.
I've always thought of punk as akin to musical haiku. Generally minimalistic, trying to get the point across in 2 minutes or less, via basic 3 chord song structures. To me the beauty is in the rejection of the non-essential elements, and distilling it down to the raw (pure?) message
This video actually helps a lot! Puts a lot of my ideas on the basics of writing fast hardcore riffs into perfect words. My only thing is that punk and hardcore did a unique evolution in the late 80's/early 90's that took all the principles of repetition/alterations and combined with sick one note melodic lines, and even fleshed out harmonies, vocally and instrumentally, with chord progressions. Combined elements of thrash metal with crossover hardcore (prime examples being RKL and DRI.) And also melodic hardcore (ex. NOFX and Descendents, and especially Bad Religion,) respectfully. Throw in Reagge/Ska influence and you get the whole package. And like you said pop punk is a whole other box of frogs lol. I'd love to see more on the punk genre as a whole from this channel. But anyway thanks for the vid! 👍
@@diydylana3151 ??? What? Pop punk is bigger than that... It's more complex in how punk, and by extension, punk AND Hip-Hop became popular by extension. And @12tone didn't touch on because they were extensions of their roots. And as people like to forget sometimes, they are cousins in music history... So idk I get your point, but understand his want to keep it succinct...
Thank you for taking punk seriously. I dont want punk to be taught in college, I think jazz died in a academic setting. But I really respect you doing this outside of a academic setting.
Punk's not dead
Punk just smells funny.
@@dcurry7287 That's also true, but we don't care ;)
No but in some circles it's lived long enough to become the man
"Rock and roll can't die, because someone is always willing to go and dig up the corpse" - Billy Joe Armstrong
The Beths
Essential video, really. I have musicology / music degrees and I play various genre of extreme music from grindcore to death metal, this used to be one of my favourite subjects to try and explain to my classmates who were all coming from classical or jazz and had a very vertical / chord based approach to music. I think you've pretty much nailed it with your explanation, it works in pretty much all punk based music and can be extended to a lot of early extreme metal as well.
I would just add a little bit of nuance when mentioning Dead Kennedys, because their riffs are very different from usual punk fare as they are HUGELY influenced by surf music and generally instrumental rock (they tend to have a more melodic, single note based take than power-chord based), but I'd say they are a perfect case study for the importance of interpretation in punk music and extreme music in general.
The thing with punk riffing is that it's so much about interpretation that you can pretty much bring in whatever you want in the mix as long as you get the interpretation (and the songwriting) right. Like I mentioned, Dead Kennedys has a very surf-music influenced writing and so does Agent Orange ; Poison Idea uses a lot of blues scale / pentatonic based riffing ; the Bad Brains started as jazz fusion musicians and later reggage and they bring both of that to their riffing, etc etc etc.
There is so much to say about this, especially if you start to look into the regional scenes and their differences. Swedish and Finnish hardcore punk for examples are extremely different despite being close neighbours with the same influences ; France has a completely unique minimalistic punk scene where you can find the first example of "melodic" hardcore and punk influenced by traditional popular music, Japan has heavy-metal influenced bands with flamboyant guitar solos, etc etc.
I'm really happy to see someone going a little bit into the theory around punk. For people who aren't part of this particular writing style, it's a welcome start to understanding.
Last thing I'd say is that if you look at it, punk and its derivatives functions very much like traditional music, with a modal / melodic base and "oral" transmission - where oral and memory are mostly being handled through records and their trading.
+
@@diydylana3151 I don't know of any resources that look at it from a musicology standpoint. But the book and movie American Hardcore give a good run down of pretty much all styles. Erich Keller has some good write ups on his old blog, but it's tied to specific bands.
Hardcore punk is still a vastly complex genre to define, it's difficult to explain, you really need to listen first.
This is a great discussion because it's so difficult to explain. It's kinda like you either get it or you don't. I grew up in the NYHC scene and there were many bands that were neither hardcore nor punk involved in the scene. I've seen rap groups, avante garde noise, funk and all kinds of other bands play at hardcore shows. Candiria used to play at a lot of hardcore shows & they were mostly death metal mixed with jazz & rap. The doom metal genre is also quite diverse & eccentric these days. I'm a big doom fan & most of my favorite bands sound nothing like each other. Yob is considered doom & they don't really sound like the other bands in that genre.
Very true about the DK surf influence. There has been a lot of surf influence in punk. DK is probably the first & most notable example. The rockabilly influence in punk is also very interesting. Bands like the Cramps & eventually psychobilly music. I guess psychobilly would be considered a form of punk. At least to me it is.
Two weeks ago, we had the pleasure and honor to be the opener for "The Exploited" in Hannover, Germany. Punk is still alive.
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Awesome i saw them in the netherlands about two weeks ago aswell, fucking great show
I'm the guitarist for a hardcore band and this helped a lot!! I'm still a begginer so I'm kinda bad (or it's because I'm 10) but I think your video is really cool!! :D
Something that I think is important to add to this analysis, especially in larger song structure (not just note by note theory) is crowd interaction.
The start of hardcore punk was also what birthed moshing/slam dancing, stage diving, and most aggressive crowd interactions that other genre's have (poorly, imo) borrowed from. HC song structures are quite varied, and don't really follow the verse-chorus-verse-chorus sort of structure, especially in the later years to present. What ties them all together is the kind of energy the band wants to bring to a live setting, and how they want the crowd to move.
Some examples from the 81 to 85 era:
Minor Threat: In My Eyes: this song has 3 distinct parts, an intro, a slower "sing along", and a fast explosive part.
The slower part with the syncopated hits is where you go up to the stage, and Ian passes you the mic on all the loud parts, and you pile ontop of your friends and people at the show, all yelling those parts.
Right after the "Don't you fucking get it?" line, that's when you then jump off the stage, slam into everyone, and dance hard.
SSD: Like Glue
A lot like in my eyes, the fast "Gotta stick together" part is where the crowd all yells at Springa, and the slower parts are where you skank around and throw punches.
This was basically cemented in law by the time the second wave of HC bands from 86 to 91 rolled around (especially the New York crowd), and you can see it with bands like Youth of Today, Breakdown, Outburst, and Raw Deal.
There's a sort of mutual relationship between the crowd and the music the band is writing, that is ever evolving. A band will come up with a beat / rhythm, people in the crowd will find new ways to dance to it, other people in bands will want to play those rhythms to strike up those movements, and keep the energy and chaos up at shows. A sort of shorthand has been in place for decades now, where when you play this kind of beat / riff, you do this dance step / mosh move / crowd action to it. I would say this aspect of "how to write punk music" is far more important to understand than the riffs. It's more similar to Djing a party, where you're there to facilitate the crowd, than making a composition for a blues or jazz song. All about building and releasing tension in different ways. It's something that you're likely to miss if you're not involved in the live aspect, and only have exposure to listening to HC on records.
This is great, I love the 80s rawness and the 90s-todays hardcore which I would say is all based around rhythm now. The riffs have gotten slightly more metallic depending on what flavor of hardcore you listen to but they all share a grove. I feel like it’s mandatory to have a 2step and beatdown riff in most of today’s hardcore
For anyone who wants a good underground hardcore punk band, listen to Refused. They blend styles well and have some amazing riffs, but ones that specifically come to mind are New Noise, Liberation Frequency, and Born on the Outs.
Refused are post-hardcore and definitely not underground. Decent band who were very influential though.
@@joelowdon1615 apologies. I use the term underground loosely lol. I just meant lesser known. They are definitely post-hardcore, but also blend a lot of styles very well.
Using the geocentric model as an illustration of "very not true" is really funny :'D
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You're amazing! I love how you introduced hardcore punk by stating the genre's societal and political context, and then gave such a cool interpretation of art! Thank you so much for covering such an unconventional genre so gracefully and articulately.
I think every musician, music teacher, student of music should explore punk music. I think it should be mandatory in schools like Berkley etc.
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For every new guitar I got, the first song I'd play was, "New Rose" by The Damned (as said by many, it's the perfect punk song). It's difficult, but it also gave me an idea for how to move on the fretboard. Side note: The guitar I had for many years in the late part of my career never got that treatment. Until the last show in March 2020. As we we were setting up, it came over the house system, and I set up by playing it. A year and a half later on a cross country flight, it broke in the luggage compartment. But it had its New Rose baptism at least.
Sorry to hear about your guitar. You, um... well... were you flying United? I heard they break guitars.
@@jackielinde7568 Delta. Buffalo to Portland. There was extreme windsheer in Utah, and we got thrown around a lot, diverting out landing from SLC to Provo.Usually I take my guitar as carry on, but they gave me a free luggage pass. Even broken, I didn't bag-check it on the way back.
@@ChristyAbbey I had to ask, and make a joke at United's expense. There was a musician from Canada who was traveling to a contest in the US that flew United. He had a connecting flight where they were loading baggage into the belly when one of the passengers shouted, "Oh my god. They're throwing a guitar around." Sure enough, it was his guitar. And, when get got to his destination, he found they had broken his guitar. After calling around a while and being consistently told by United reps they would not fix his guitar, he told them he would write three songs. The first was titled "United Breaks Guitars."
Here's a link to the video. I have one of the artist's solo albums. If you like folk, he's a good artist.
ruclips.net/video/5YGc4zOqozo/видео.html&ab_channel=sonsofmaxwell
@@jackielinde7568 Thanks! (And of course; punk and folk are just aspects of the same thing.)
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As a massive punk fan, you really did it justice in this video! I get so sick of people acting like all punk consists of is some boring mainstream pop punk bands when a lot of punk fans wouldn't even consider a lot of that garbage punk at all. You did a fantastic job, on the other hand, and obviously cared about getting this shit right. Great video!
Man I felt the same as you watching this. Took a music analyst who isn't desperately trying to "defend pop punk" to do it right.
I've been loving the new wave of hardcore/metalcore lately. Bands like Knocked Loose, Kublai Khan, Jesus Piece, Justice for the Damned, Gideon, Bodysnatcher, Boundaries, Great American Ghost, and Varials keep the spirit of angry punk music while adopting the extra aggression and clean playing from metal and dropping the tempo down to something a bit groovier. Oh, and breakdowns. Gotta love me some stupid heavy breakdowns.
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Thank you so much getting the word out! I just started a punk band I’m really into the stooges
Also please more punk
Have you read please kill me? It’s a awesome punk book I just read, probably my favorite book I’ve ever read
I think that viewing these riffs in tablature can be a more helpful way to see how the guitarist interacts with chord/note progressions, because for a lot of punk musicians, the basic education they got was only a half-step up from 'Here's a chord, here's another, here's a third, now go start a band.' and a degree of rediscovery based on shapes, not theory, is how they get back to sounds that have theoretical reference.
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I was literally thinking last night about how Pagefire is the only person making even remotely usable punk music theory vids and how much I hate watching theirs. Glad to see someone less irony poisoned take a stab at it
I want to like Pagefire so badly, but I can't stand the dude's content.
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I was honestly thinking about this exact topic a few days ago! I was wanting to learn to write more punk rifts and you explained it well. Great drawings too!
13:40 - 13:50 perfectly encapsulated
I love the work you do man! You are free, do what you want, talk about punk, listen to punk, analise punk, worship punk, insult punk, BE PUNK!
Wow, this is so cool, not only explained punk as music but respects the counterculture itself ♡
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Small note about power chords on guitar: at 5:42 you say “going up or down in 4ths requires an adjustment of…your strumming hand, creating a smaller but more complicated motion.” This isn’t quite true because your fretting hand is almost always muting the strings not being directly fretted, meaning your strumming hand can simply strike every string at once no matter the chord being played. Thus, no chord change is any more or less complicated for your strumming hand to complete. This only emphasizes your point about movement efficiency though.
Right! This is why you hear weird high-pitched dead notes in the background of a lot of punk guitar tracks. Their left hand is muting the top 2-3 strings almost always, but the string is still being hit. However, I would say that if someone is really thinking about picking economy and trying not to get tired, they usually do figure out after a couple years of doing the style how to mostly just hit the strings they're trying to play. As with all things, it depends.
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That kinda sounds like bad technique to me 😬 I mean of course your fret hand will be muting extra strings but they still make a noise when struck. I think it would be better to develop a better focus on string selection with picking hand
@@mikatomik5532 lol yeah, punk music isn't necessarily known for good technique, but like I said I think some people do notice that it makes you tired to always hit all six strings and they focus their playing over time (sometimes).
@@mikatomik5532 it’s absolutely not bad technic. It’s crucial guitar technic for a lot more than punk music. Jimi Hendrix and SRV are good examples all six strings being stuck while muting the unwanted notes to get an aggressive sound and maintain an even strumming pattern.
Punk theory and the Black Lotus @ 10:39 scratched all my brain itches this morning
Came here to say this. Man says "least common" and draws a Black Lotus. The visual references always catch me off-guard!
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“Punk Rock is about freedom, liking what ever you want, playing what ever you want, as sloppy as you want. As long as it’s good and has passion”
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I love how "Systems you can't control" is drawn as a N64 controller.
Great video!
I’d say punk riffs started as the sharp organ riffs in early garage rock and occasionally early psych/prog by way of hard bop/soul jazz
As someone who listens primarily to punk. I enjoyed this video greatly. Very informative.
The right-handed elephant slays me! It may be the most punk thing in the video!
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Underground pop punk from new wave to 90s to present day is under rated and misunderstood. It’s still out there, most people just stay home and complain about why it sucks now because thats easier than going out and supporting the music in person. In my opinion it is so important to experience punk music in person. I hope that anybody reading this message goes to a show tonight, there’s one near you, somewhere, go find it!
100%. Underground pop punk deserves better.
As a big fan of black metal, being aware that not only does it have heavy influence and cross-over with punk, but that many similar criticisms are launched at that genre, I'd love to see a corollary video on that as well.
I’ve always thought of black metal as surf punk but in minor key, using Marshall stacks and with louder vocals lol
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after watching your videos i always get those moments, when looking in the fridge i suddenly realise how you made me think more about music, and learn about something i already enjoyed, you're not a music educator, you're a superstar!
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An interesting point is early hardcore is very fruitful in the terms of the music that derives from it and a lot of these techniques can be used onto that too. You can hear a lot of these ideas in thrash, post hardcore and the more aggressive forms of indie rock.
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This is maybe not the right video to leave this comment on but I just wanted to thank you for these videos. I started watching your channel having almost no music theory or analysis understanding, and partly because of your videos I've started playing the piano and writing my own music at 42 years old, and these videos have been instrumental (heh) in developing my skill. So, thank you very much! Making my own music is literally a lifelong dream of mine and now I'm *actually doing it* - what a gift!
As an anti-establishment punk rocker, talking about the moral socio-ethical debate of whether or not discussing punk would be the right thing to do.
Honestly punks are some of the most well informed people in regards to what is happening on a lot of things and by breaking down the genre from a mechanical standpoint is pretty punk and counter culture to the "rules" of established punk culture.
Rock n roll 😎
Fantastic video, as a long time fan of punk I found it very interesting!
I'd like to request you dive into a particular iconic punk song from when punk peaked in the 90s, Linoleum by NOFX.
It is probably their most famous song and it has a strange structure.
As a bonus, I have noticed a lot of youtubers react to that song and it typically draws a new audience to their channels so it might give you a little sub boost of punk fans that find your musical analysis interesting!
No chorus, only verses and a bridge. It was the last song Tony Sly ever played... Thanks for mentioning, bro. You a real one.
I can believe you did the analysis on HC. There's still hope for music in this world!
This was fantastic, i know for the sake of making a concise video you werent able to touch on everything, but i'd have loved to see some discussion on the prevalence of downstrokes in punk riffs, and the freedom that the bass usually has in embellishing the power chord riff by walking all over the place.
I feel that talking about punk in an analytical lense, doesnt take away the meaning of punk at all. Because we really dont give a shite about your opinion of the sound, all we care about. Is the message, and the inspiration of the artform to take action. Where the issue lies, is in the people like ben shabibo, who use "music theory" do either ignore, downplay, or outright mock the message and the issues being addressed.
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what a fun analysis of my favorite kinda music! If you ever want to return to the genre again, I'd recommend taking a look at punk bass. To me, a lot of punk is found in the bass. It's where you find some more expressive note phrases and runs like you mentioned with metal at the beginning of the video. a lot of it also has some ancestry in the jamaican ska tradition that could be cool to look at.
Loved this video! Really interesting to try to understand what makes punk sound "punk"
7:58 Interesting, I came up with the idea of a statement/response analysis for riffs (metal riffs, in my case) on my own a while ago. It's cool to see someone with more musical training argue the exact same thing.
Of course, I'm a prog metal nerd and I wanted to see how far I could push that structure, with my ultimate goal being to write a riff so long that it lasts for an entire song. Still haven't figured that one out lol
With the death of DH Peligro this week, the John Bonham of hardcore punk, it's great to see this video drop this week.
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I wish someone actually took the time to talk about the music I love like this when I was a teenager. I might have actually started to care about music theory and learned how to read music. Instead I was facing rejection and ignorance and answered with just the same. Thank you for doing what you do! Good point at the end tho: Don't let professionalism and theory get in the way of artistic expression
This is a really cool video and long overdue! Nobody's ever talking about hc in terms of music theory! One thing I might say it's that you concentrated (understandably) on American HC more than the so called "punk rock" of the early days, wich was mainly English and influenced by other genres.
HC somewhat ended up in a rut because of it's extreme and sometimes silly rukles, negating what the punk ethos was (and still is) in a way, but that's another thing. But I heard you examined The Minutemen as well, and (if you want to call them HC - they certainly were punk) they sound very much different from Minor Threat, Bad Brains or DK
Anyway, I feel that in England and Europe HC sounded a bit different, not much in terms of attitude and message, but musically. I thing about band like Discharge (UK), The Nuns (SE), Betong Hysteria (NO), Negazione (IT), Kina (IT) to name a few.
Good work! Thanks!
As a former hardcore punk musician… yeah, pretty much spot on. Great video.
My favorite part of punk is that there are punk bands that are influenced by every other genre you could ever imagine. There seems to be a distinct habit of integrating personal flair into the underlying punk framework that I haven't quite seen elsewhere. My favorite band technically falls under the "post-hardcore" genre - it's so insane to me how bands can retain that ragged, unpolished sound while the music itself can be very intricate, polyrhythmic or polyphonic, or even beautiful. I was heavy into Green Day in middle school and the rough, simple structure that they put forth was so appealing. Seeing how complex that structure can be made while still retaining the raw angst and emotions that drew me in with Green Day is a very satisfying experience as a musician and as a listener. (Yes, I know Green Day is on the way lighter side of punk but I didn't get into heavier stuff until my 20s. Sue me lol)
The Repetition and Contrast Scheme is very reminiscent of blues progressions, with a call and response and a turnaround to close the segment (sometimes the verse, sometimes the line).
I’m honestly more of like a modern melodic hardcore guy but the OGs are always gonna be remembered.
So there’s a way to approach this your kinda onto. I am a self taught guitarist, started with punk. So much of what I did learning was literally just experimenting. The 4th thing is so just the simplest most self evident way to get going. I feel like after you figure that out you explore outwards, and I genuinely feel most punk guitarists walked some experimental self guided path as such.
Wow, I was really surprised by this. I clicked on it to see how ridiculous it would be and I was very pleasantly surprised. Great work!
3:27 I disagree with the characterization of "many punk songs, especially in the hardcore scene, [being] above 300 BPM, with some even passing 400." You could maybe convince me that a lot of grindcore lives in this range, but for "ordinary" hardcore punk, as well as genres like thrash metal (a genre derivative of hardcore punk with elements of traditional heavy metal and speed metal), I think it makes a lot more sense and is a lot more useful to chop these tempos in half. It's more natural to think of "Prepare for Attack" by Havok as being 170 BPM rather than 340, and from my experience looking at tabs and references in these "fast" genres, this is what most people tend to do. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I don't think this characterization is the best and it seems most (at least most musicians in these genres) agree.
Great video once again. Interesting note about power chords - the Root / Fifth / Octave are of course the first three overtones of a fundamental an octave below, so our brains manufacture an implied fundamental, which makes the chord itself sound heavier.
That bit about riff structure at 8:05 is completely true of almost all my riffs and i had no idea :D
Thank you I've been having a lack of inspiration lately and this really helped
This tutorial is like a small dream come true.
Also, I love that the drawings are not actually mnemonics but mostly for entertainment, which makes me laugh when I have no idea why a specific thing is being put on paper.
Best explanation of this genre's fundamentals that I've eeeevverrr heard -- thank you so much for doing this ! !!
I would be ecstatic if you did the same for more like bedroom pop, indie, garage rock, emo, math rock, etc.
Cheers from Wisconsin
I would love it if you did a video on power violence
Great video. I learned a lot of terms for what I've been trying to do but I don't know music theory. It's good to know what some of the concepts I'm trying to apply actually are but I've just been doing it by ear.
Glad to see you've got all sorts of styles on your mind. I love metal personally, but seeing any different genres show up that aren't classic rock/pop/classical is always welcome even if I'm not super invested in whatever genre you're working with. I love this kind of video if you couldn't tell.
To your first question, I don't think this is disrespectful in the slightest. Punk may consistently be anti-authoritarian but I see what you are doing is sorta bringing punk into an academic light rather than forcing academic values onto punk. *That* would be disrespectful but you've been very clear that applying any structures to punk is going to force approximations and accepting those clear imperfections is enough to make a useful set of concepts, that, as you said, are tools for writing and not the goal of punk itself. Ok, long comment just to say I think you did no disrespect to punk. :)
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Great video @12tone!!! I always love your discussions and I’ve learned so much from you about music and composition.
love your holistic approach
There was a video about bass playing in punk, and a bunch of us in the comments (including me) agreed that anyone who thinks that punk bass is easy has never tried to play the bassline for "Separation of Church and Skate" (NOFX)
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For me, punk is that kind of music I love to listen to and could technically write, but man, I'm not _that_ angry... As you said at the end, the important thing in punk is the energy and anger, the feelings on the lyrics.
massive hardcore punk fan, thank you so much
This guy gets it, loved your intro
I would like to formally applaud you. This has been one of the best videos you’ve ever done. Thank you. Btw. You should sell copies of the sheets. I would buy the heck out of these.
Its about art dude, art is soul. Soul is your heart
On the topic of a music theorist analyzing music that’s against the norm I think it would be interesting for you to make a video on some of the more experimental genres that came out of it like the No Wave, Early industrial (example: Throbbing Gristle), and Noise scenes. (This is coming from a noise artist)
Punk musicians are some of the most technically gifted musicians out there. But to me the point of punk is the music, the message, and the people, not showing off decades of practice like the arena rock acts around them or the metal guys who fill their solos with every note possible.
Especially 90s punk bands like Lagwagon, nofx, strung out, bigwig, propagandhi, rkl
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been listening to a wide variety of punk for 20+ years now... regarding the ethics/usefulness of deconstructing and analysing punk music, I think it's absolutely useful and not "wrong" to do something seemingly "un-punk" about punk music. "What is punk?" is an impossible question to answer because there's almost 50 years of differing opinions and experiences - the sex pistols wore swastikas, the dead kennedys sang "nazi punks f**k off", neither more nor less punk than the other.
For me, this sort of analysis is fascinating - you need to be careful not to be elitist or condescending, which I think you manage to do. Many punk musicians won't even know what they're doing on a theoretical level, they just know how to make the sound they like. They know the sound, the image, the mentality they are rebelling against and they know how to make a sound that is clashing and dissonant with that.