Fun fact: while "grot" means arrowhead/spearhead in Polish, it was also the nickname of "Grot" Rowecki - one of the generals of the Polish Home Army during WW2.
@@GARDENER42 Actually it is the name of the company founded by Reginald Perrin after leaving Sunshine Desserts. Also means crap or rubbish but I've never heard it used for porn.
Guys, just imagine. You buy one upper, three barrels different size, two lowers. Out from this you get six combinations of rifles, for potentially price of two and a half.
One note, because your description of "Territorials" getting "the best equipment" sounded like they're some kind of spec-ops. "Territorials" are essentially volunteer support troops, a kind of localized, organized militia. The government dumped MSBSes on them first to serve as a testing ground for a yet-unproven design.
Territorials are or at least were a pet project. there was an idea of procuring Javelins for them which was insanity. they've got to test a new design where AKMs would do.
They are light infantry, and therefore need good infantry weapons including the javelin, the army by contrast stays as mechanized units of armour and artillery. Its also a good way to attract new recruits. You don't successfully create a new unit of volunteers by underfunding them and giving them aging stockpiled AKs
@@phil__K light infantry, as far as I'm concerned, are units like paratroopers, SF operators, rangers. Territorial defense are weekend warriors, in a full scale conflict at best useful as 3rd line units - as demonstrated by current events. I'm aware Poland got Javelins in the recent buying spree, I'd rather they weren't wasted on territorials.
Interesting how so many modern rifles not only have their lineage in the AR15+18, but now also the Magpul Masada, it seems. Magpul's influence extends even beyond their patented peripherals.
@@monotech20.14 I initially thought it a stretch, but after this many small arms sharing SUCH a similar profile (and of course, knowing how influential Magpul's accessories are), now i'm certain.
Shame that you didn't show how you can transform normal version into bull pup in matter of minute, it really shows the modularity of the rifle. Also worth noting: the whole rifle started as Masters thesis on WAT(Military Technical Academy) before it was picked up by industry.
@@heinzkabofke6791 the same as with all bullpups: reducing total gun lenght without lowering muzzle velocity. A conversion kit is cheaper to afford and takes less space than an entire gun.
@@heinzkabofke6791 Using same rifle in case of vehicle crews. You can order thousand of classic version and then handful of conversion kits for specialist when needed. Right now Polish military issues PM-98 9mm SMG for them. From civilian standpoint: it is fun to have one gun in two configs on same permit ;)
@@heinzkabofke6791 for countries like Poland in the civilian market there is a chance you will need only one permit for the rifle and then you can use it in both configurations. For militaries, it saves a lot on logistics - most parts are interchangeable so you don't need to keep your separate stock for your troops that use full length version and for those that use bullpup variant. Also the manual of arms etc is identical so you cut costs of training to some degree too.
Regarding the name "Grot". The word itself is hard to translate to English as it basically describes the tip of any projectile with a wooden shaft and tips of all simple polearms. So "grot" can mean arrow-, bolt-, javelin-, pike- or spearhead depending on the context. But that is not all. The name "Grot" was also chosen because it was the pseudonym of Polish General Stefan Rowecki, the commander of the Home Army during world war 2.
Been using it for a few years now. Great rifle and huge improvement over the Beryl wz.96 previously used in the Polish Armed Forces. Cant wait to get my hands on the bulpup version.
Steel and aluminum in direct contact with each other will accelerate corrosion. This might be mitigated by coatings or nonmetallic gaskets or shims placed between the surfaces. Coating in industrial hard carbon for example might help and would also reduce friction and wear.
One of the best commentary and knowledge on the internet. Always does his homework. Always ready with his on take of every weapon. Spot on. Thanks for showing “These Forgotten Weapons”.
"Always does his homework." sums it up nicely. That and his openness about things he was in error about makes this my go to firearms channel. The humor also is deft and understated.
25:41 Actually in the meantime since the recording of this video the Polish Armed Forces did express interest in the bullpup version of the rifle. They plan to issue it to the vehicle crews. Edit: Unfortunately right now it seems those rumors were fake. It seems that currently, MoD is not interested in the bullpup version of the rifle.
I was wondering if the usage of Ukrainian’s bullpup might influence the Polish army to reconsider using the bullpup version. I could see the bullpup version being issued to troops that are stationed to defend dense urban environments.
Few months ago an annual closed conference regarding Grot took place, not only military was invited, there were also various engineers and normal users, there are some interesting things that were mentioned: - The A4 version is said to make proper fix the silly gas regulator problem, A4 will also see further weight reduction - The workaround gas regulator fix will be available as m-lock accessory - A machine gun version of Grot has been designed, only details I know about it is that it will use heaver barrel and bigger mags, but that is obvious - There was a lot of talk about production changes, better materials and production technology for example (ukrainian soldiers often complain that grot gets rusty faster than it should) - Someone suggested a 6.8 version of Grot, so there is a chance that we will see a 6.8 conversion module prototype - There are plans to make Grot 2, unfortunately I didn't find any information about it - A lot of people were interested in AR stock on Grot (especially Territorial Defence Forces, also the current stock is too short for many people) - Future grot versions are likely to have AR style safety selector - There will be to changes to the iron sights, in polish army we still use iron sights as primary sights, it might also explain why polish DCM-1 Szafir sight (similar to ACOG) was mounted on one of the grots on the shooting range There are also plans to release bullpup conversion alone this summer. Other than that I hope you will get to review the Grot 7.62N version and MWS .338 that were created to replace our current SVD. The MWS is also a polish modular weapon system made in Tarnów that I would love you to review. MWS-15 is planned to release in 2023 so we will finally have a chance to compare it against grot. Both rifles look so good, but I think MWS looks better. MWS aims more at civilian market, compared to army centered grot. This year ZM Tarnów also presented ZMT SR-50M, a .50 BMG sniper rifle.
I cant imagine Poland making the largest European Arms deal in Recent history with the US and Korea only to not invest the few millions into a Red dot standardization.
@@snakeace0 Like during World War II we are still holding entrance to Europe. You can add natural resources to the mix - deposits of natural resources in polish ground which US is protecting right now. This is why Poland is making so many deals with US army. There is a lot of money laying down in the ground.
I would love to see a full rifle kit released in the U.S. with both the standard lower and the Bullpup lower together in one package deal with like a 16 inch barrel and an 18 or even 20 inch barrel so you can take advantage of the Bullpup lower with longer barrels. Maybe create a serialized trigger pack that can be used in both lowers or serialize the upper along with the bolt carrier so that you can make some bolt and barrel swap kits for different compatable cartridges.
I’m not sure how well it translates into the US legal system, but current approach of FB here in Poland is (or rather will be, but it’s officially confirmed) to sell bullpup conversion kits as “add-ons” to regular rifles, using parts which are not legally considered “weapons”. I’m really curious what the approach will be for US market.
@Alfey I'm pretty sure all they would need to do to import it legally is to find a polymer-producing partner (maybe Magpul, who knows) that can make the receiver shells and ship almost all the other parts to the US for assembly. They might have to use Magpul or Lancer magazines for 922(r) compliance. I'm sure if IWI, HK, FN, Croatians, CZ, and Steyr can do it, FB can do it.
Looks like a really slick system! Love the detent on the cocking handle, such a neat little feature. The standalone grenade launcher frame is interesting too, gives you a lot of options over just carrying it around permanently weighing down your rifle.
The MSBS is a slick system, it suffered at the beginning of the deployment tho because polish government due to propaganda reasons (disclaimer: territorial forces were introduced as a kind of flag military project and the government wanted to show off with it), so they bought 50k for territorials without commencing field trials that would highlight problems it had (typical infancy problems tho)
@@kolega4ever the contract included a point of FB implementing any changes that will turn out to be necessary (free of charge) - this is why all A0 and A1s are being updated to A2 version. The purchase was essencially one big field test, and it was a briliant move.
👉There is already a bullpup version KIT, ready to sell on the civil market. It will be available in Poland in 2023. The Polish army ends trials of this configuration and thinking about adopting it as MSBS version for tank crews, drivers, paras etc. Also, worth mentioning that GROT rifles can be spotted in Ukraine right now. More about that KIT on this video: ruclips.net/video/qsSgEQpCy00/видео.html. Moreover GROT is fully modular, barrels, calibers, all can be changed. For example, there is version for 7.62x39. Another member of this family is GROT 7.62N in sharpshooter configuration: ruclips.net/video/lbjvHhgqgN0/видео.html
Can someone translate the section about Ian (ruclips.net/video/qsSgEQpCy00/видео.html) in the above video? [Edited because the timestamp isn't working. If it still isn't, the discussion is at 34:34]
@@drmaudio 35:20-36:00 part that are „bullpup kit” that will be sold as a separate kit for classic Grot owners will be able to buy a ready bullpup. Kit: lower, front guard, „foot” as a upper cap and some small parts and tools. In Poland kit will be sold with no licence by law, couse lower and rest of parts are „not essential” to gun be a gun (in 🇵🇱) to they are threated as accessiries. For classic Grot „part” you need gun licence of course ;) Anything more specific (timestamp)?
also few point missing in video for peoples intrested: - barrel mount is self-centering so you don’t lose zeroing when taking it out - there are 10”, 16” and 20” (i think) - by desing it can be multi-caliber rifle, by changing barrel and reciever (of course no 5.56 to full 7.62 couse size limitations) - to change for left handed you swap ejection window and rotate reciever 180 deg. - no additional parts needed if I remember correctly - bullpup will be kit for for classic rifle, only few parts (mainly lower)
@@onomatopejaB Thank you, but I was looking for the section starting at 34:34, where he is talking about Ian. I edited my comment with a timestamp link, but it was taking me back to different places in the video.
Fun fact: there is an agreement between the Polish Armaments Group and some African country for the supply of 7,62x39 MSBS Grot . As a side effect there are conversion kits available in Poland which consist of a barrel, a bolt, a firing pin, a cam pin and a magazine, which let you adapt Grot for AK ammunition in a couple of minutes.
This thing is awesome they really did their homework and it's good to see that there's countries that don't get caught up in pride thinking (I don't want it to look like anything on the market or use anything that's on the market) they took the very best from other systems and added what they needed with their own design and made something wonderful
The way you have presented each and every iteration - from honestly crude design to something that really starts to look advanced - and that they allowed to show it (the problematic things especially) it is pure gold! Thank you!
Currently FB is working on version A3 build from better materials that will improve some rusting and cracking issues that were spot in Ukraine in battlefield conditions, and they are planing version A4 in which main goal is making it lighter.
I was fortunate enough to handle the Grot a few times while I was in Poland. I found it a great rifle. I was shocked how lite it is. I also learned, the hard way, to make sure my support hand was clear of the charging handle before releasing the bolt! Also, while working with the TDF, they explained the teething issues they had with the rifle, but still love it.
I really like the premise that this rifle can be reconfigured to a Bullpup. Saves on having to build different weapons for different needs. Love seeing the Fabryka Broni FB in the shield as it was with the Radom pistols they produced before WWII.
Here in Poland, we can buy GROT civil set with two lenghts of barrel 16" and 10,5". Hovewer on civil market was a little numbers of army version rifles from the early production, after tests. I bought one of them and it's pretty damn cool and good.
3:17 to clarify: creation of new branch of armed forces made bean counters realise there's simply not enough resonably modern rifles to outfit reserves, if Poland needs to quickly moblize. And this problem would only grow, as main purpose of Territorial Guard is to train new reserves, that have dwindled considerably since draft was suspended in 2009, meaning as time goes there will be more reservists to moblize. Large number of new rifles had to be aquired one way or another.
So cool to see you hopping all over the globe, getting exclusive access to cool items/places. Humble, factual and finding the neat stories has paid off, cheers to you and your continued success!
This gets my vote as the best looking modern military rifle. Then there's all of the great mechanical ideas taken from other rifles and somehow all incorporated into this one. Amazingly simple yet robust in every way. I would love to own a semi auto version of this rifle in 7.62X39mm or 7.62X51mm. If they become available I'll buy one immediately
7.62x51 will be too large for the frame to accommodate. However Robinson Arms basically makes this exact same rifle in a variety of calibers, and also a Heavy version for 7.62x51, .243, and 6.5 I believe as well
Personally I like the look of the F2000 better myself, though I'd completely agree that this one is certainly one of the best looking. Also would love a 7.62 version myself
It amazes me how many views and comments there are after only a few short hours after posting. Your viewership has grown so large, so fast, it must be up there for some kind of world record. The real beauty of it being, as your fame grows, so does your access to museums and manufacturers. Showing a new firearm on your channel once, must get more exposure than several shot shows. I imagine in 100 years, Ian's name will be as well known as John Moses, among gun enthusiasts.
In Poland civilians can also buy separate barrels for civilian version of GROT. There are 3 lengths to choose now: 10", 14.5" and standard 16" barrels. There is also a factory set of 16" rifle + 10" barrel available in gun shops.
@@extragoogleaccount6061 The bullpup version is going to hit the market very soon. As the reps of Fabryka Broni say it will be also possible to get just the conversion for a regular GROT, so one can switch between two variants any time.
FINALLY A GROT VIDEO i asked quite a few tumes and finally its there. Thank you Ian for digging into polish guns, and overall, for showing the beauty of gun manufacturing.
I live in Poland and want to get my gun license. My idea was to get a VIS 100 M1 and a MSBS GROT a2. Mainly because they are Polish and they are service weapons. Was looking for review material and came a across little to none, except Forgotten Weapons shooting video of a few years ago. So guess how surprised and happy I was when I saw this video. Anyways, the guy that has given me the first shooting instructions is a Polish soldier, gonna check what his opinion is about the Beryl vs Grot and VIS vs MAG. For me I find the VIS and GROT really cool in any case - but I am but a novice :).
Poland has always made some cool guns. The gun that yall were going to put into service right before WWII broke out would have been the best WWII-era service rifle. It was semi-auto and really well done. I forget the name of it, but there is a video on this channel. Also, learning how to shoot is probably a good idea these days with Putin getting more and more unhinged by the moment. Anyways, take care.
Grot is nice piece of gun. Vis 100 is little worse. I prefer mag 95. Vis has some problems with spring and worse accuracy. Rest of parts are of good quality. If you try to get grot AIM for second or third version. First got not so precise parts. Version for snipers grot762n is blast. Guys who got contact with it said its super good piece of equipment little better to care than ar and hk sniper rifles.
My friend in Ukraine was issued one of these. Apparently Poland sent 10,000 of them as aid. I'd never heard of them before - glad to know it's a quality design. Hope it's working well for him!
A2 is pretty much solid design. Original MSBSs and A1 had their issues which caused kind of public scandal (TL;DR miniature version of L85 scandal, but instead of entire rifle being fucked up there were only some parts that would be instantly fixed if the army had proper field trials)
@@varoth I guess it makes sense. Instead paying for the remodeling of the first models we simply chucked them onto the trains along with the tanks, howitzers AND EVERYTHING ELSE we sent to Ukraine. 10k modern rifles with some annoying features is still 10k modern rifles that can be used.
@@rosomak8244 Don't accuse me of lying without evidence, please. It is not, let's say, kind of you. Marynino shooting range. Barrnaul ammo (sic!). Do you want to see photo of the target and photo of my Grot on position? I know... no connection between photos...
@@rosomak8244 You may want to consult reality before insulting people: ruclips.net/video/u6Tr28rQrRc/видео.html (same 5.56 cartridge, less accurate and older weapon, NO magnification, 500 yards).
Such an interesting take on an modern, indigenous development of a system. I really like the charging handle locking into the bolt so that it can be used essentially as a forward assist. 👍
I want to say I really appreciate the depth and history that you go into in your videos. You have actually gotten me interested in firearms I wouldn't otherwise care about, and I can only imagine you have done that for others. So thank you for the MASSIVE contribution that you make to our community!
I always thought just looking from pictures that it was a bit of a copy of the ACR, but seeing these prototypes and the developmental stages really shows that it is something cool and unique
It’s so cool that every gun Poland has developed has been so unique and universal. I only know a few but the ones I do know have been nothing but good!
Cool: there was an army exercise near my hometown in Holland which included Polish participation, and I didn't recognise their rifles. Now I know what they were :-)
I'm really liking that A2 production Grot, has the Masada/ ACR style stock which is a huge plus, short stroke piston (which I prefer over d.i.), ambi controls and non-reciprocating charging handle, bayonet lug, I mean what more could you ask for?? I want one.
5:00 "A couple years iteration", LOL I worked on a couple development projects at T/CA. I would not trust a rock if it were first year of production. It doesn't matter what, there will ALWAYS be modifications between the engineer's "really great idea" and something that actually works outside the QA office.
It's definitely a rare opportunity to be able to look at any product's entire development history starting with the very first non-functional example. The only way you get more thorough than that is if you had the physical design schematics, which in this day and age are probably digital files.
Ian: "Aluminum is still relatively soft and if you're going to have a steel bolt traveling in an aluminum receiver you want to have something to take up the wear, and so that's why you have all these steel inserts." Eugene Stoner: "Wait, what?"
That bolt carrier at 7:53 is very similar to a Keltec RDB, with a short-stroke piston up front that impacts an op rod that extends out from the bolt carrier.
Wow what a amazing rifle I would love a rile with multi-calibur quick change barrel system and capable of being switched into a bullpup ... Terrific modularity
Most of the guns in arma 3 are based off of some real life gun. The only exception being the MX line of rifles that Bohemia commissioned CMMG to design a concept for.
@@nickkennedy9034 It was one of those games that came out at a time when everybody thought the US Army was on the verge of ditching the M4 for the ACR, Scar, XM8 etc. And so there's a tonne of games from the early 2010s that were set in a version of the near future that never happened. It's like all those games from the early 2000s that have the Comanche helicopter and more than two stealth destroyers.
Fortunately for everyone long/short stroke gas piston designs with reciprocating charging handles are becoming the next step in most modern weapons development. Why it’s taken so long to get back to this is almost entirely the US Governments fault for marrying themselves to the AR-15/direct impingement system instead of doing the correct thing and adopting Eugene Stoners improved design with the AR-18. Buffer tubes and forward assists are massive weaknesses not strengths, but due to wide adoption decades ago we’ve kept that garbage around decades beyond when it should’ve been left behind technologically.
Always laughed at AR guys. The rifle is the definition of "get the glue, elastic bands and pass me a piece of gum with some string; I'll get it to work!" Smarter countries like Ireland, Japan and Singapore saw the AR-18 and realised, "oh, it's the gun those Americans SHOULD have had in Vietnam." The AR-15 is beta-test that never left beta, and everyone was OK with that except the developer. Why does that sound applicable elsewhere? Oh well!
@@confusedinthisworld exactly, Stoner was a genius, and the USG just so happened to completely squander his real potential and consequently the AR-15 unfortunately lives on to this day.
I wish you had commented on that Polish grip vs the Magpul. The production grip just looks more ergonomic with that palm swell vs the Magpul which just looks 'adequate.' The newer grip reminds me of the BHP or CZ 75 grips which feel great in the hand.
Looks like a promising system. The rifle has many useful features and they seem to have already addressed shortcomings. I hope that all the Polish forces will soon have Grot A2. I also hope that the bullpup variant gets updated to the A2 standard feature set. Even if it is not used as a standard rifle, it could be useful in a number of specialized roles. For example, it could be used like a PDW for vehicle crews with confined spaces, pilots, security forces, and bodyguards. A relatively compact full rifle caliber weapon could be superior in some cases to lower powered PDW calibers that are less common.
I also rather liked the angled grip on the earlier grenade launcher design. Perhaps worth bringing back a similar grip on the latest grenade launcher design as an option. This would be particularly useful for bullpup variant rifles if they get produced.
As a pilot, vehicle crew, or bodyguard, I might want to keep an obscurant smoke grenade loaded in the launcher, with fragmentation grenades as reloads. That could be handy for quickly reacting to an ambush on a convoy by popping smoke and driving through if feasible. Also possibly handy for a pilot to help evade initial pursuit or attacks if their aircraft goes down in hostile territory.
It seems that with the stock folded, the regular variant is actually shorter than the bullpup, which may be why the Polish armed forces weren't interested in pursuing the bullpup version any more.
Since Ian recorded that (2-3 months ago?) that video the bullpup version was already updated to the A2 standard and it will be launched together with conversion kits on the civilian market in 2023. In fact, the Army also expressed interest in the bullpup version for the vehicle crews, just as you said. *" hope that all the Polish forces will soon have Grot A2."* --- As far as I know, A2 version is already the most common in the Armed Forces. A3 version is already in development and it has been announced that A4 will most likely follow.
The bullpup variant will supposedly be available in 2023 and it will be marketed both for the army (for vehicle crews and so on) and for civilian market. The army will of course have the priority, but I hope to see it available soon.
I like the ideas behind this one. Masada looking, bolt release/hold open on the trigger guard looking like it's inspired by the XCR-L and CZ Bren 2, the barrel replacement procedure reminds me of the XCR too but imo maybe a bit more secure by design. AR-18/SCAR action. Maybe some AR-15 ergonomics in the future too and that ambi charging handle being capable to reciprocate if needed seems like a good idea but no forward assist integrated into it I guess, that's the compromise. The plate for the bullpup configuration imo should be a thing on the conventional design for left handed shooters so we get a truly ambi rifle unless I didn't understand that part quite correctly. Overall this system looks really good, just needs to refine the last details like the gas setting thing maybe and this is a truly 2020s rifle.
This rifle is actually ingenious, I doubt I would personally use the bullpup lower, but it’s a very interesting feature, with a nicely simple implementation.
Before I even watch the video I wanted to say I am super excited to see you covering this rifle. I have waited for it ever since the weapon started production.
I would be also cool to see Ian visiting the ZM Tarnów weapons factory (yeah I know he was in Poland cople of months ago at the point of publication of this video) The MWS-15 and MWS-25 wepons systems are interesting (better MSBS in my opinion) also Bor and Tor sniper rifles as well as RGP-40 6 shot revolver grenade launcher. A s well as other weapons 12,7x99 4 barrel gatling style HMG, UKM-2020 GPMG, Antiaircraft guns (23 and 35mm ones), light mortars, etc...
21:50 This bar it's not for blocking rotation of gas reulator. It was resolution to the main flaw in MSBS design: gas regulator was pourly atachted to rifle so sometimes it likes to "shoot out" the gas regulator during firing. So this little lug is preventing it from the flying away.
Yay, polished Polish guns! 😃 I would love to get one but they are quite expensive. Around Armalite or cheapest DanielDefense AR's. You can get one with two barrels, each in different length, however🤔
I actually think this is one of the most innovative rifles in recent years and I wish they would release it to the commercial USA market. I would gladly sell my desert tech MDR for one of these. These are truly modular rifles unlike an ar-15 which has lots of parts made for it but isn't really modular. To be able to switch between a bullpup or standard rifle is pretty cool if you ask me. The potential specialized variants are endless. If only they continued with the bullpup too.
@@sgsheff Also they are working on version A3 and announced possibility of A4, someday maybe they will be available in US market but probably not any time soon as military want's more and stated that it is interested now in bullpup version for vehicles crew.
Grot, yes it means spear (edit: spearhead), but in the case of the MSBS the name derives from the pseudonym of general Stefan Rowecki commander of the Home Army, murdered on the orders of Heinrich Himmler.
Thank you for the video. Very intresting. Hope you will visit Poland more. It would be cool if you could run seminars and take Q&A live. Would definitely pay to for it!
Hopefully he will cover the LMT-15 and maybe J&C Armanent Black Widow too (As I know J&C is not a part of Radom, and they're fairly small, so the chance is also small). It's very impressive to see Poland, a country which doesn't seem like having a big gun industry and also doesn't seem like having that much sale of firearm, got that much companies produce different type of firearms
@@carlll6101 Oh, and you know what is similar to Onet drama? G36 myth. It's seem like people haven't learnt from the last gun controversial. They're military gun, they're chosen though a lot of step, costing a lot of money and time, and people be like: yeah this thing bad, that thing bad, flexing with my civilian version gun, quality control and stuffs,... Perhaps you made all of those up, otherwise you're saying high rank officers are unprofessional, and you're smarter than R&D department
@@thedesignerblacksmith5953 yeah looking at both of them is like: "hmm I have seen this before". Funniest shit with Onet drama was that is was about first iteration and idiots spinning it did not realised that A1 (or A2 was already in production when "former SoF specialist" was shitting on the gun) was current one.
If only this could be intertwined with the Beretta arx160 ability to change ejection side with the depression of a button this would be the actual ultimate 5.56 military rifle. Maybe the magazine well should have been separate piece rather than being part of the lower receiver? In general I think Poland has a winner rifle here. Hell, they could even use most of the parts and make a 7.62x51 DMR if they can.
@@jakmac6499 Yes, but the solution from the Beretta rifle would work great for the bullpup configuration of the Grot - one press of a button and the rifle ejects from the other side.
My oh my, do I just love seeing Polish guns on Ian's channel. The gun enthusiast community in Poland is relatively small, but you can find disciples of Gun Jesus at every firearm-related event. I just hope the lads in Radom gave you a proper Polish welcome.
Poland has had some really cool small arms. The gun that yall were going to put into service right before WWII broke out would have been the best WWII-era service rifle. It was semi-auto and really well done. I forget the name of it, but there is a video on this channel.
@@extragoogleaccount6061 The rifle you're speaking of was the wz.38M, designed by Józef Maroszek. It was a promising design indeed, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it would've been the best had it been produced in large scale. It's difficult to compare it to others when it hardly saw any use and didn't get the opportunity to stand the test of battle.
@@janwacawik7432 Thats definitely true. I suppose most guns seem like they work well until you hand them to a bunch of 19 year olds and put them through the rigors of battle!
Ah Ian, you forgot to show us the version used by the ceremonial troops (Kompania Reprezentacyjna). It has a longer stock in order to be easier to use when doing ceremonial duties and weapon drills. Nonetheles, great video as always. Great to have you in Poland, Gun Jesus!
I got to shoot this in Poland last year while training with their TDF over there. Its pretty enjoyable in its current state, and loved its ergonomics way more than my 1980s M4 carbine I was issued lol.
Fun fact: while "grot" means arrowhead/spearhead in Polish, it was also the nickname of "Grot" Rowecki - one of the generals of the Polish Home Army during WW2.
Funny fact: Here in the UK, grot is slang/a euphemism for porn.😁
i can confirm that
In the popular tabletop wargame Warhammer 40.000 "grot" is what gretchin, or goblins are called.
@@GARDENER42 Actually it is the name of the company founded by Reginald Perrin after leaving Sunshine Desserts.
Also means crap or rubbish but I've never heard it used for porn.
@@gustavmeyrink_2.0 Yeah, back in the days before internet porn, publications such as Playboy were known as 'grot mags'.
Guys, just imagine. You buy one upper, three barrels different size, two lowers. Out from this you get six combinations of rifles, for potentially price of two and a half.
SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!
My guy, that already existed with the Stoner 63/63A.
Sounds pretty slavic
@@DryMonster100 I'll drink to that
@@phazonlord0098”existed”
My guy, FSB is actually producing this though. But it also true for an AR15 lol
One note, because your description of "Territorials" getting "the best equipment" sounded like they're some kind of spec-ops. "Territorials" are essentially volunteer support troops, a kind of localized, organized militia. The government dumped MSBSes on them first to serve as a testing ground for a yet-unproven design.
Territorials are or at least were a pet project. there was an idea of procuring Javelins for them which was insanity. they've got to test a new design where AKMs would do.
@@klegdixal3529 they did receive javelins
They are light infantry, and therefore need good infantry weapons including the javelin, the army by contrast stays as mechanized units of armour and artillery.
Its also a good way to attract new recruits. You don't successfully create a new unit of volunteers by underfunding them and giving them aging stockpiled AKs
@@phil__K light infantry, as far as I'm concerned, are units like paratroopers, SF operators, rangers.
Territorial defense are weekend warriors, in a full scale conflict at best useful as 3rd line units - as demonstrated by current events.
I'm aware Poland got Javelins in the recent buying spree, I'd rather they weren't wasted on territorials.
Well I'm sure Poland made the right decision .Since Russia invading countries seems to be a thing.
That integration of the grenade launcher is super seamless and aesthetic.
@TerminaterX24: Grenade pistol?
Obudziłeś starożytne duchy polskich widzów, teraz będziemy nawiedzać twój kanał do końca twoich dni.
Przecież już sporo razy nawiedzalismy Gun Jezusa, bo Raka omawiał, polskiego Bara i wz 38.
@@olo1990pl Jak również VIS'a.
I nosi Polskie czapki
It's cool, you are more than welcome here
@@aras1024 nie wiem jak mogłem zapomnieć o VIS'ie.
Interesting how so many modern rifles not only have their lineage in the AR15+18, but now also the Magpul Masada, it seems. Magpul's influence extends even beyond their patented peripherals.
Which is why almost all new firearms look the same.
@@monotech20.14 I initially thought it a stretch, but after this many small arms sharing SUCH a similar profile (and of course, knowing how influential Magpul's accessories are), now i'm certain.
@@youngdenard264 naw fam
@@youngdenard264 which copied the ar18 🤣
@@monotech20.14 Form tends to fit function, just look at the F1 grid from literally any year.
Ian robi najlepsze ujęcia broni, zbliżenia, długie spokojne ujęcia, dobre oświetlenie. Nasi mogli by się od niego tego nauczyć.
Mówisz że Naszym chłopakom brakuje luzu?
Смерть Украине
@@Proth7 Spójrz na te kocie ruchy
@@Kushothe haha 😂
Gowno prawda. Wybraliście pisowców to teraz cierpcie.
Pis-free Poland!
Shame that you didn't show how you can transform normal version into bull pup in matter of minute, it really shows the modularity of the rifle. Also worth noting: the whole rifle started as Masters thesis on WAT(Military Technical Academy) before it was picked up by industry.
Nice feature, but what is the use of said conversion?
@@heinzkabofke6791 the same as with all bullpups: reducing total gun lenght without lowering muzzle velocity. A conversion kit is cheaper to afford and takes less space than an entire gun.
@@heinzkabofke6791 Using same rifle in case of vehicle crews. You can order thousand of classic version and then handful of conversion kits for specialist when needed. Right now Polish military issues PM-98 9mm SMG for them. From civilian standpoint: it is fun to have one gun in two configs on same permit ;)
@@heinzkabofke6791 for countries like Poland in the civilian market there is a chance you will need only one permit for the rifle and then you can use it in both configurations.
For militaries, it saves a lot on logistics - most parts are interchangeable so you don't need to keep your separate stock for your troops that use full length version and for those that use bullpup variant. Also the manual of arms etc is identical so you cut costs of training to some degree too.
@@piotrmielnik1404
It’s a PDW in Bullpup config?
Still a bit big, init?
But nice if it works for Poland like this.
Regarding the name "Grot". The word itself is hard to translate to English as it basically describes the tip of any projectile with a wooden shaft and tips of all simple polearms. So "grot" can mean arrow-, bolt-, javelin-, pike- or spearhead depending on the context.
But that is not all. The name "Grot" was also chosen because it was the pseudonym of Polish General Stefan Rowecki, the commander of the Home Army during world war 2.
It was not "also choosen". It was choosen in the first place because of the commanser Grot Rowecki. It was the main reason for the name.
@@alexanderkolodziej4808 Yeah, that is what I meant, just worded it poorly.
@@kamilszadkowski8864 Nice explanation for a difficult translation.
Been using it for a few years now. Great rifle and huge improvement over the Beryl wz.96 previously used in the Polish Armed Forces. Cant wait to get my hands on the bulpup version.
I still prefer beryl or something in 5.45
@@jason200912 also nice
the only downside of Grot is the fact that it corrodes very quickly and you have to clean it almost every day.
Steel and aluminum in direct contact with each other will accelerate corrosion. This might be mitigated by coatings or nonmetallic gaskets or shims placed between the surfaces. Coating in industrial hard carbon for example might help and would also reduce friction and wear.
@@stupidburp Damn you Luigi Galvani !
Always refreshing to see something that isn't an AR or AK. Thank you.
well it's ar18 inside xD
funny cause its technically both lol
I mean it’s technically both in a way
One of the best commentary and knowledge on the internet. Always does his homework. Always ready with his on take of every weapon. Spot on. Thanks for showing “These Forgotten Weapons”.
"Always does his homework." sums it up nicely. That and his openness about things he was in error about makes this my go to firearms channel. The humor also is deft and understated.
@@danielburgess7785 I love the way he says "trunnion".
25:41 Actually in the meantime since the recording of this video the Polish Armed Forces did express interest in the bullpup version of the rifle. They plan to issue it to the vehicle crews.
Edit: Unfortunately right now it seems those rumors were fake. It seems that currently, MoD is not interested in the bullpup version of the rifle.
I was wondering if the usage of Ukrainian’s bullpup might influence the Polish army to reconsider using the bullpup version. I could see the bullpup version being issued to troops that are stationed to defend dense urban environments.
In Polish army is a lot of units that could use bullpups version of Grot rifle.
Few months ago an annual closed conference regarding Grot took place, not only military was invited, there were also various engineers and normal users, there are some interesting things that were mentioned:
- The A4 version is said to make proper fix the silly gas regulator problem, A4 will also see further weight reduction
- The workaround gas regulator fix will be available as m-lock accessory
- A machine gun version of Grot has been designed, only details I know about it is that it will use heaver barrel and bigger mags, but that is obvious
- There was a lot of talk about production changes, better materials and production technology for example (ukrainian soldiers often complain that grot gets rusty faster than it should)
- Someone suggested a 6.8 version of Grot, so there is a chance that we will see a 6.8 conversion module prototype
- There are plans to make Grot 2, unfortunately I didn't find any information about it
- A lot of people were interested in AR stock on Grot (especially Territorial Defence Forces, also the current stock is too short for many people)
- Future grot versions are likely to have AR style safety selector
- There will be to changes to the iron sights, in polish army we still use iron sights as primary sights, it might also explain why polish DCM-1 Szafir sight (similar to ACOG) was mounted on one of the grots on the shooting range
There are also plans to release bullpup conversion alone this summer. Other than that I hope you will get to review the Grot 7.62N version and MWS .338 that were created to replace our current SVD. The MWS is also a polish modular weapon system made in Tarnów that I would love you to review. MWS-15 is planned to release in 2023 so we will finally have a chance to compare it against grot. Both rifles look so good, but I think MWS looks better. MWS aims more at civilian market, compared to army centered grot. This year ZM Tarnów also presented ZMT SR-50M, a .50 BMG sniper rifle.
I cant imagine Poland making the largest European Arms deal in Recent history with the US and Korea only to not invest the few millions into a Red dot standardization.
@@snakeace0 Welcome to Poland )))))))))
@@snakeace0 Like during World War II we are still holding entrance to Europe. You can add natural resources to the mix - deposits of natural resources in polish ground which US is protecting right now. This is why Poland is making so many deals with US army. There is a lot of money laying down in the ground.
A promising new rifle. May many Vatniks meet their end at it's hand.
MWS is just a plain AR clone, nothing interesting about that in comparison to MSBS
I would love to see a full rifle kit released in the U.S. with both the standard lower and the Bullpup lower together in one package deal with like a 16 inch barrel and an 18 or even 20 inch barrel so you can take advantage of the Bullpup lower with longer barrels. Maybe create a serialized trigger pack that can be used in both lowers or serialize the upper along with the bolt carrier so that you can make some bolt and barrel swap kits for different compatable cartridges.
I’m not sure how well it translates into the US legal system, but current approach of FB here in Poland is (or rather will be, but it’s officially confirmed) to sell bullpup conversion kits as “add-ons” to regular rifles, using parts which are not legally considered “weapons”. I’m really curious what the approach will be for US market.
@@alfey318 Well put.
@Alfey I'm pretty sure all they would need to do to import it legally is to find a polymer-producing partner (maybe Magpul, who knows) that can make the receiver shells and ship almost all the other parts to the US for assembly. They might have to use Magpul or Lancer magazines for 922(r) compliance. I'm sure if IWI, HK, FN, Croatians, CZ, and Steyr can do it, FB can do it.
Looks like a really slick system! Love the detent on the cocking handle, such a neat little feature. The standalone grenade launcher frame is interesting too, gives you a lot of options over just carrying it around permanently weighing down your rifle.
We Poles are smarter than most people give us credit for and have many good ideas 💡 just not all of them are widely known
The MSBS is a slick system, it suffered at the beginning of the deployment tho because polish government due to propaganda reasons (disclaimer: territorial forces were introduced as a kind of flag military project and the government wanted to show off with it), so they bought 50k for territorials without commencing field trials that would highlight problems it had (typical infancy problems tho)
@@kolega4ever the contract included a point of FB implementing any changes that will turn out to be necessary (free of charge) - this is why all A0 and A1s are being updated to A2 version. The purchase was essencially one big field test, and it was a briliant move.
I still didnt expect to ever see a proper video with close ups of everything, and suddenly we have everything from the begining! Wow!
👉There is already a bullpup version KIT, ready to sell on the civil market. It will be available in Poland in 2023. The Polish army ends trials of this configuration and thinking about adopting it as MSBS version for tank crews, drivers, paras etc. Also, worth mentioning that GROT rifles can be spotted in Ukraine right now. More about that KIT on this video:
ruclips.net/video/qsSgEQpCy00/видео.html. Moreover GROT is fully modular, barrels, calibers, all can be changed. For example, there is version for 7.62x39. Another member of this family is GROT 7.62N in sharpshooter configuration: ruclips.net/video/lbjvHhgqgN0/видео.html
Yep I pre ordered it at store
Can someone translate the section about Ian (ruclips.net/video/qsSgEQpCy00/видео.html) in the above video?
[Edited because the timestamp isn't working. If it still isn't, the discussion is at 34:34]
@@drmaudio 35:20-36:00 part that are „bullpup kit” that will be sold as a separate kit for classic Grot owners will be able to buy a ready bullpup. Kit: lower, front guard, „foot” as a upper cap and some small parts and tools. In Poland kit will be sold with no licence by law, couse lower and rest of parts are „not essential” to gun be a gun (in 🇵🇱) to they are threated as accessiries. For classic Grot „part” you need gun licence of course ;) Anything more specific (timestamp)?
also few point missing in video for peoples intrested:
- barrel mount is self-centering so you don’t lose zeroing when taking it out
- there are 10”, 16” and 20” (i think)
- by desing it can be multi-caliber rifle, by changing barrel and reciever (of course no 5.56 to full 7.62 couse size limitations)
- to change for left handed you swap ejection window and rotate reciever 180 deg. - no additional parts needed if I remember correctly
- bullpup will be kit for for classic rifle, only few parts (mainly lower)
@@onomatopejaB Thank you, but I was looking for the section starting at 34:34, where he is talking about Ian. I edited my comment with a timestamp link, but it was taking me back to different places in the video.
Fun fact: there is an agreement between the Polish Armaments Group and some African country for the supply of 7,62x39 MSBS Grot . As a side effect there are conversion kits available in Poland which consist of a barrel, a bolt, a firing pin, a cam pin and a magazine, which let you adapt Grot for AK ammunition in a couple of minutes.
Lol
This thing is awesome they really did their homework and it's good to see that there's countries that don't get caught up in pride thinking (I don't want it to look like anything on the market or use anything that's on the market) they took the very best from other systems and added what they needed with their own design and made something wonderful
I've been looking forward to this for a long time. Was lovely to meet you in person in Warsaw.
The way you have presented each and every iteration - from honestly crude design to something that really starts to look advanced - and that they allowed to show it (the problematic things especially) it is pure gold! Thank you!
I got to fire one of these when I was in Poland a month ago, I was impressed. It’s a bit chunky but absolutely serviceable
Currently FB is working on version A3 build from better materials that will improve some rusting and cracking issues that were spot in Ukraine in battlefield conditions, and they are planing version A4 in which main goal is making it lighter.
This thing looks incredible. Huge props to FB for producing what looks like a fantastic service rifle
Hey Ian, thanks for a great video, you did a great job as always, greetings from Poland.
I was fortunate enough to handle the Grot a few times while I was in Poland. I found it a great rifle. I was shocked how lite it is. I also learned, the hard way, to make sure my support hand was clear of the charging handle before releasing the bolt! Also, while working with the TDF, they explained the teething issues they had with the rifle, but still love it.
I really like the premise that this rifle can be reconfigured to a Bullpup. Saves on having to build different weapons for different needs. Love seeing the Fabryka Broni FB in the shield as it was with the Radom pistols they produced before WWII.
Here in Poland, we can buy GROT civil set with two lenghts of barrel 16" and 10,5". Hovewer on civil market was a little numbers of army version rifles from the early production, after tests. I bought one of them and it's pretty damn cool and good.
how is the accuracy ? I just did my patent so in the market for something soon.
FN SCAR+L is better
oraz 14.5"
@@gearfacts1273Lol
3:17 to clarify: creation of new branch of armed forces made bean counters realise there's simply not enough resonably modern rifles to outfit reserves, if Poland needs to quickly moblize. And this problem would only grow, as main purpose of Territorial Guard is to train new reserves, that have dwindled considerably since draft was suspended in 2009, meaning as time goes there will be more reservists to moblize.
Large number of new rifles had to be aquired one way or another.
So cool to see you hopping all over the globe, getting exclusive access to cool items/places. Humble, factual and finding the neat stories has paid off, cheers to you and your continued success!
That final little grenade only thing is amazing. Incredibly elegant.
This gets my vote as the best looking modern military rifle. Then there's all of the great mechanical ideas taken from other rifles and somehow all incorporated into this one. Amazingly simple yet robust in every way. I would love to own a semi auto version of this rifle in 7.62X39mm or 7.62X51mm. If they become available I'll buy one immediately
7.62x39 is already available in Poland, but there is a problem with availability of mags...
7.62x51 will be too large for the frame to accommodate. However Robinson Arms basically makes this exact same rifle in a variety of calibers, and also a Heavy version for 7.62x51, .243, and 6.5 I believe as well
Frank dobrze mowisz żeby były 7,62
Personally I like the look of the F2000 better myself, though I'd completely agree that this one is certainly one of the best looking.
Also would love a 7.62 version myself
You must know very well what you are writing if your name is Browning
It amazes me how many views and comments there are after only a few short hours after posting.
Your viewership has grown so large, so fast, it must be up there for some kind of world record.
The real beauty of it being, as your fame grows, so does your access to museums and manufacturers. Showing a new firearm on your channel once, must get more exposure than several shot shows.
I imagine in 100 years, Ian's name will be as well known as John Moses, among gun enthusiasts.
In Poland civilians can also buy separate barrels for civilian version of GROT. There are 3 lengths to choose now: 10", 14.5" and standard 16" barrels. There is also a factory set of 16" rifle + 10" barrel available in gun shops.
Can you get it as a bullpup and a regular rifle? In bullpup with a 10' barrel, that would be really handy!
@@extragoogleaccount6061 The bullpup version is going to hit the market very soon. As the reps of Fabryka Broni say it will be also possible to get just the conversion for a regular GROT, so one can switch between two variants any time.
FINALLY A GROT VIDEO i asked quite a few tumes and finally its there. Thank you Ian for digging into polish guns, and overall, for showing the beauty of gun manufacturing.
it really is amazing just how many countries have adopted a service rifle based on one of the two systems that came out of Armalite
This is probably the coolest rifle i’ve seen in a good minute. I’d love to get my hands on one especially one with the 40mm.
I live in Poland and want to get my gun license. My idea was to get a VIS 100 M1 and a MSBS GROT a2. Mainly because they are Polish and they are service weapons. Was looking for review material and came a across little to none, except Forgotten Weapons shooting video of a few years ago. So guess how surprised and happy I was when I saw this video. Anyways, the guy that has given me the first shooting instructions is a Polish soldier, gonna check what his opinion is about the Beryl vs Grot and VIS vs MAG. For me I find the VIS and GROT really cool in any case - but I am but a novice :).
Poland has always made some cool guns. The gun that yall were going to put into service right before WWII broke out would have been the best WWII-era service rifle. It was semi-auto and really well done. I forget the name of it, but there is a video on this channel. Also, learning how to shoot is probably a good idea these days with Putin getting more and more unhinged by the moment. Anyways, take care.
Grot is nice piece of gun. Vis 100 is little worse. I prefer mag 95. Vis has some problems with spring and worse accuracy. Rest of parts are of good quality. If you try to get grot AIM for second or third version. First got not so precise parts. Version for snipers grot762n is blast. Guys who got contact with it said its super good piece of equipment little better to care than ar and hk sniper rifles.
My friend in Ukraine was issued one of these. Apparently Poland sent 10,000 of them as aid. I'd never heard of them before - glad to know it's a quality design. Hope it's working well for him!
I just hope they received the A2 version :-)
A2 is pretty much solid design. Original MSBSs and A1 had their issues which caused kind of public scandal (TL;DR miniature version of L85 scandal, but instead of entire rifle being fucked up there were only some parts that would be instantly fixed if the army had proper field trials)
@@johnnyenglish583 Ukrainians recived fistr version (confirmed). I dont know if the recived A2 as well. But in general their opinion is very positive.
@@varoth thanks for letting me know!
@@varoth I guess it makes sense. Instead paying for the remodeling of the first models we simply chucked them onto the trains along with the tanks, howitzers AND EVERYTHING ELSE we sent to Ukraine. 10k modern rifles with some annoying features is still 10k modern rifles that can be used.
MSBS Grot is incredibly accurate. I use civilian version of Grot M1. Distance 500m, 1-8 Vortex FFP scope. A3 sheet of paper demolished! :)
The cartridge in use plain and simply doesn't give you that. Don't lie.
@@rosomak8244 Don't accuse me of lying without evidence, please. It is not, let's say, kind of you. Marynino shooting range. Barrnaul ammo (sic!). Do you want to see photo of the target and photo of my Grot on position? I know... no connection between photos...
@@rosomak8244 You may want to consult reality before insulting people: ruclips.net/video/u6Tr28rQrRc/видео.html
(same 5.56 cartridge, less accurate and older weapon, NO magnification, 500 yards).
Such an interesting take on an modern, indigenous development of a system. I really like the charging handle locking into the bolt so that it can be used essentially as a forward assist. 👍
I want to say I really appreciate the depth and history that you go into in your videos. You have actually gotten me interested in firearms I wouldn't otherwise care about, and I can only imagine you have done that for others. So thank you for the MASSIVE contribution that you make to our community!
Well said, great comment!
I always thought just looking from pictures that it was a bit of a copy of the ACR, but seeing these prototypes and the developmental stages really shows that it is something cool and unique
True.
It's a unique as thots on instagram. Jet another AR-18 copy with useless features tucked on for differentiation.
it is a better copy of the ACR
It’s so cool that every gun Poland has developed has been so unique and universal. I only know a few but the ones I do know have been nothing but good!
The pm 63 rak is one that is certainly very unique... but in a cursed weapon sense much more so than anything else
Cool: there was an army exercise near my hometown in Holland which included Polish participation, and I didn't recognise their rifles. Now I know what they were :-)
I'm really liking that A2 production Grot, has the Masada/ ACR style stock which is a huge plus, short stroke piston (which I prefer over d.i.), ambi controls and non-reciprocating charging handle, bayonet lug, I mean what more could you ask for?? I want one.
5:00 "A couple years iteration", LOL I worked on a couple development projects at T/CA. I would not trust a rock if it were first year of production. It doesn't matter what, there will ALWAYS be modifications between the engineer's "really great idea" and something that actually works outside the QA office.
Thankfully most rocks have undergone several million years of development to reach their current form factor and properties.
Well, in case of "Grot" you would be very, very right. Early models were terrible.
It's definitely a rare opportunity to be able to look at any product's entire development history starting with the very first non-functional example. The only way you get more thorough than that is if you had the physical design schematics, which in this day and age are probably digital files.
The fact they made 3D printed models before an working prototype is neat. Basically something akin to what a cosplayers could make.
@@MandalorV7 And also directly confirms that in fact design schematic is a digital 3D model
The bullpup version with the grenade launcher is perfect for a sci fi movie.
Great video! It was a long wait but it was worth it. I really enjoyed looking through all those prototypes.
Ian: "Aluminum is still relatively soft and if you're going to have a steel bolt traveling in an aluminum receiver you want to have something to take up the wear, and so that's why you have all these steel inserts."
Eugene Stoner: "Wait, what?"
That bolt carrier at 7:53 is very similar to a Keltec RDB, with a short-stroke piston up front that impacts an op rod that extends out from the bolt carrier.
It’s also nearly identical to a SCAR bcg
I've been waiting for this episode long enough. Well done
I have been waiting for Ian to cover this one for so long.
Wow what a amazing rifle I would love a rile with multi-calibur quick change barrel system and capable of being switched into a bullpup ... Terrific modularity
As a Arma 3 player, I never realized the Promet was based on this real gun. Always thought it was some weird '2035' concept.
Most of the guns in arma 3 are based off of some real life gun. The only exception being the MX line of rifles that Bohemia commissioned CMMG to design a concept for.
@@nickkennedy9034 It was one of those games that came out at a time when everybody thought the US Army was on the verge of ditching the M4 for the ACR, Scar, XM8 etc. And so there's a tonne of games from the early 2010s that were set in a version of the near future that never happened. It's like all those games from the early 2000s that have the Comanche helicopter and more than two stealth destroyers.
Interestingly it shows Promet as Bullpup only rifle, meanwhile Grot in military use so far ended up as conventional non-bullpuped rifle.
Same thoughts here. Makes sense because Livonia is that part of the world
The "Fabri Cabroni" pronounciation gave me a good chuckle, almost like it's some italian design
Finally :) BTW Grot is in the memory of the polish underground army general Stefan Paweł Rowecki, aka „Grot”
I went from kind of chuckling at the design of this thing to wanting to throw my money at it by thelatest iteration. SWEET rifle!
Absolutely lovely video ! Thank you for featuring this rifle
13:36 you just casually whipped out an extremely rare experimental wz 96D, I love it.
Much like crabs, everything eventually becomes an AR-18.
Fortunately for everyone long/short stroke gas piston designs with reciprocating charging handles are becoming the next step in most modern weapons development. Why it’s taken so long to get back to this is almost entirely the US Governments fault for marrying themselves to the AR-15/direct impingement system instead of doing the correct thing and adopting Eugene Stoners improved design with the AR-18. Buffer tubes and forward assists are massive weaknesses not strengths, but due to wide adoption decades ago we’ve kept that garbage around decades beyond when it should’ve been left behind technologically.
Thats why every new firearm looks the same.
Always laughed at AR guys. The rifle is the definition of "get the glue, elastic bands and pass me a piece of gum with some string; I'll get it to work!" Smarter countries like Ireland, Japan and Singapore saw the AR-18 and realised, "oh, it's the gun those Americans SHOULD have had in Vietnam."
The AR-15 is beta-test that never left beta, and everyone was OK with that except the developer.
Why does that sound applicable elsewhere? Oh well!
@@confusedinthisworld exactly, Stoner was a genius, and the USG just so happened to completely squander his real potential and consequently the AR-15 unfortunately lives on to this day.
Funnily, the polish Army has a howitzer name Crab.
Nice work, real pleasure to see the this review, comprehensive and detailed. Hope you're enjoying your stay ;)
I was waiting for this, thank you Ian.
Excellent walk through the process of how that kind of development progresses
The grenade launcher looks super cool 😳 especially like the underslung one with the big complex sights off the side
I wish you had commented on that Polish grip vs the Magpul. The production grip just looks more ergonomic with that palm swell vs the Magpul which just looks 'adequate.' The newer grip reminds me of the BHP or CZ 75 grips which feel great in the hand.
many users who compared both grips claim that the one produced by FB is more ergonomic and more efficient
Looks like a promising system. The rifle has many useful features and they seem to have already addressed shortcomings. I hope that all the Polish forces will soon have Grot A2.
I also hope that the bullpup variant gets updated to the A2 standard feature set. Even if it is not used as a standard rifle, it could be useful in a number of specialized roles. For example, it could be used like a PDW for vehicle crews with confined spaces, pilots, security forces, and bodyguards. A relatively compact full rifle caliber weapon could be superior in some cases to lower powered PDW calibers that are less common.
I also rather liked the angled grip on the earlier grenade launcher design. Perhaps worth bringing back a similar grip on the latest grenade launcher design as an option. This would be particularly useful for bullpup variant rifles if they get produced.
As a pilot, vehicle crew, or bodyguard, I might want to keep an obscurant smoke grenade loaded in the launcher, with fragmentation grenades as reloads. That could be handy for quickly reacting to an ambush on a convoy by popping smoke and driving through if feasible. Also possibly handy for a pilot to help evade initial pursuit or attacks if their aircraft goes down in hostile territory.
It seems that with the stock folded, the regular variant is actually shorter than the bullpup, which may be why the Polish armed forces weren't interested in pursuing the bullpup version any more.
Since Ian recorded that (2-3 months ago?) that video the bullpup version was already updated to the A2 standard and it will be launched together with conversion kits on the civilian market in 2023. In fact, the Army also expressed interest in the bullpup version for the vehicle crews, just as you said.
*" hope that all the Polish forces will soon have Grot A2."* --- As far as I know, A2 version is already the most common in the Armed Forces. A3 version is already in development and it has been announced that A4 will most likely follow.
The bullpup variant will supposedly be available in 2023 and it will be marketed both for the army (for vehicle crews and so on) and for civilian market. The army will of course have the priority, but I hope to see it available soon.
I like the ideas behind this one. Masada looking, bolt release/hold open on the trigger guard looking like it's inspired by the XCR-L and CZ Bren 2, the barrel replacement procedure reminds me of the XCR too but imo maybe a bit more secure by design. AR-18/SCAR action. Maybe some AR-15 ergonomics in the future too and that ambi charging handle being capable to reciprocate if needed seems like a good idea but no forward assist integrated into it I guess, that's the compromise. The plate for the bullpup configuration imo should be a thing on the conventional design for left handed shooters so we get a truly ambi rifle unless I didn't understand that part quite correctly. Overall this system looks really good, just needs to refine the last details like the gas setting thing maybe and this is a truly 2020s rifle.
I have a polish mosin nagant m44 from the same factory! Shoots pretty damn good
Took it first time in my hand on shooting range in Poland. Five dublets-all hive in target. Thank you!
This rifle is actually ingenious, I doubt I would personally use the bullpup lower, but it’s a very interesting feature, with a nicely simple implementation.
I'm curious about the trigger pull on the bullpup
Before I even watch the video I wanted to say I am super excited to see you covering this rifle. I have waited for it ever since the weapon started production.
Knowing Ian channel - we can expect a vid from FB shooting range with Ian's impressions on Grot.
@@witkocaster I do hope so.
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rowniez taktyczny komentarz i pozdrowienia z Chełma :)
@@MrCr00wn Pozdrowienia taktyczne, zaczynaja się dopiero na poziomie Parczewa! Pozdro!
I have been waiting SO LONG for this video
I would be also cool to see Ian visiting the ZM Tarnów weapons factory (yeah I know he was in Poland cople of months ago at the point of publication of this video) The MWS-15 and MWS-25 wepons systems are interesting (better MSBS in my opinion) also Bor and Tor sniper rifles as well as RGP-40 6 shot revolver grenade launcher. A s well as other weapons 12,7x99 4 barrel gatling style HMG, UKM-2020 GPMG, Antiaircraft guns (23 and 35mm ones), light mortars, etc...
21:50 This bar it's not for blocking rotation of gas reulator. It was resolution to the main flaw in MSBS design: gas regulator was pourly atachted to rifle so sometimes it likes to "shoot out" the gas regulator during firing. So this little lug is preventing it from the flying away.
Yay, polished Polish guns! 😃
I would love to get one but they are quite expensive. Around Armalite or cheapest DanielDefense AR's. You can get one with two barrels, each in different length, however🤔
That’s exactly like a Magpul ACR
well polished Polish people polishing polished Polish guns
@@MrTrilbe how do you decide between German and Russian abrasive? Or do you split the sales territory in half?
@@MrTrilbe 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤡🤡🤡
I love how they look. Like they come from the future. Especially the bullpup.
Its like how a weapon looks is as important as it performs.
I actually think this is one of the most innovative rifles in recent years and I wish they would release it to the commercial USA market. I would gladly sell my desert tech MDR for one of these. These are truly modular rifles unlike an ar-15 which has lots of parts made for it but isn't really modular. To be able to switch between a bullpup or standard rifle is pretty cool if you ask me. The potential specialized variants are endless. If only they continued with the bullpup too.
is already available on the Polish civilian market
@@justynam47 that's awesome
@@sgsheff Also they are working on version A3 and announced possibility of A4, someday maybe they will be available in US market but probably not any time soon as military want's more and stated that it is interested now in bullpup version for vehicles crew.
Grot, yes it means spear (edit: spearhead), but in the case of the MSBS the name derives from the pseudonym of general Stefan Rowecki commander of the Home Army, murdered on the orders of Heinrich Himmler.
Doesn't it mean TIP of the spear, specifically? "Spear" would be "włócznia" I think.
@@michaireneuszjakubowski5289 you are correct. Spear is włócznia in polish
@@michaireneuszjakubowski5289 Ian said "arrowhead" or "spearhead" which is correct, Wiktor for whatever reason wrote just spear.
@@michaireneuszjakubowski5289 spearhead or arrowhead is the correct translation.
@@michaireneuszjakubowski5289 yes you are right my mistake, of course I meant the spearhead.
Thank you for the video. Very intresting. Hope you will visit Poland more. It would be cool if you could run seminars and take Q&A live. Would definitely pay to for it!
Hopefully he will cover the LMT-15 and maybe J&C Armanent Black Widow too (As I know J&C is not a part of Radom, and they're fairly small, so the chance is also small). It's very impressive to see Poland, a country which doesn't seem like having a big gun industry and also doesn't seem like having that much sale of firearm, got that much companies produce different type of firearms
yep and there was a lot of butthurt then and ton of "specialist" shitting on the rifle coz troop trials rifles were having issues.
@@carlll6101 Yeah. I think Ian was right when he didn't said anything about Onet drama in this video
@@carlll6101 Oh, and you know what is similar to Onet drama? G36 myth. It's seem like people haven't learnt from the last gun controversial. They're military gun, they're chosen though a lot of step, costing a lot of money and time, and people be like: yeah this thing bad, that thing bad, flexing with my civilian version gun, quality control and stuffs,... Perhaps you made all of those up, otherwise you're saying high rank officers are unprofessional, and you're smarter than R&D department
@@thedesignerblacksmith5953 yeah looking at both of them is like: "hmm I have seen this before". Funniest shit with Onet drama was that is was about first iteration and idiots spinning it did not realised that A1 (or A2 was already in production when "former SoF specialist" was shitting on the gun) was current one.
great concept, epic execution, loved getting a glimpses into the process, thanks 😃
I remember discovering the MSBS through Call of Duty: Ghosts, what a unique weapon!
You said we'll take a look at that ceremonial version! I was waiting :)
If only this could be intertwined with the Beretta arx160 ability to change ejection side with the depression of a button this would be the actual ultimate 5.56 military rifle. Maybe the magazine well should have been separate piece rather than being part of the lower receiver? In general I think Poland has a winner rifle here. Hell, they could even use most of the parts and make a 7.62x51 DMR if they can.
Look up Grot 762N :)
You can change ejection side by disassembly bolt and rotating it by 180 degrees
@@jakmac6499 Yes, but the solution from the Beretta rifle would work great for the bullpup configuration of the Grot - one press of a button and the rifle ejects from the other side.
DMR version, one year ago ;). ruclips.net/video/J_SVaDI4bRM/видео.html
@@olekzajac5948 now i see how it works
I like it, very nice presentation of all the iterations. I really like the square carry handle of that bullpup prototype.
This rifle is genial in many ways, and it also has almost perfect ergonomics.
Thank you, you really do great reviews into gun mechanics.
My oh my, do I just love seeing Polish guns on Ian's channel. The gun enthusiast community in Poland is relatively small, but you can find disciples of Gun Jesus at every firearm-related event. I just hope the lads in Radom gave you a proper Polish welcome.
Poland has had some really cool small arms. The gun that yall were going to put into service right before WWII broke out would have been the best WWII-era service rifle. It was semi-auto and really well done. I forget the name of it, but there is a video on this channel.
@@extragoogleaccount6061 The rifle you're speaking of was the wz.38M, designed by Józef Maroszek. It was a promising design indeed, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it would've been the best had it been produced in large scale. It's difficult to compare it to others when it hardly saw any use and didn't get the opportunity to stand the test of battle.
@@janwacawik7432 Thats definitely true. I suppose most guns seem like they work well until you hand them to a bunch of 19 year olds and put them through the rigors of battle!
You seem to do better research than the other guys. It is appreciated.
Ah Ian, you forgot to show us the version used by the ceremonial troops (Kompania Reprezentacyjna). It has a longer stock in order to be easier to use when doing ceremonial duties and weapon drills. Nonetheles, great video as always. Great to have you in Poland, Gun Jesus!
I have a separate video on that model coming later.
@@ForgottenWeapons Awesome!
Can't wait to buy one here. I'm curious how accurate this can be with that quick change barrel
I got to shoot this in Poland last year while training with their TDF over there. Its pretty enjoyable in its current state, and loved its ergonomics way more than my 1980s M4 carbine I was issued lol.
Aw that's so cool, I wished he made a video on this and he actually has! Also the pronunciation was good, nice job
O kurwa, that's a sweet looking rifle! Greetings to out friends in Poland from Lithuania.
Excellent episode, as usual.
Hope they import these to the U.S. someday.
I've always wanted one of these
This looks so cool! Thanks for the awesome content!