Two of my favorite villains are Killmonger and Wilson Fisk/Kingpin. So, I second one of your villain selections, Joe. I didn't expect to hear that the reason why we like villains is that we can relate to them in some way. I guess that, for Killmonger and Fisk, I strongly disagree with their methods, but I see that they both (at least for Fisk in season 1) proclaim that they want to do good. Killmonger speaks against injustice and Fisk says, "I wanted to make this city something better than it is, something Ybeautiful" (though, again, I disagree with their methods). I see both characters as complex and three dimensional, especially given their desire for justice/making a difference. Since I am passionate about justice and wanting to make a difference myself, I can relate to that and I guess that has contributed to me liking their characters. Plus, I like how Fisk treats his wife, Vanessa, very well. Often times, we see male villains who don't really care for their girlfriends/wives/love interests - and can be abusive and/or manipulative towards them. Yet, Fisk, at least from what I recall, is open, vulnerable, and kind to her as well as very respectful to her. That goes into the next point that you make. Great point about wanting to see the goodness or a good trait within a villain. That reminds me of Magneto. Magneto is extreme and brutal. At the same time though, he wants to also fight against oppression and injustice - and I like his friendship with Charles (and how much he respects Charles). I guess that I can see the good traits in him also. I'm heartbroken by the injustices he suffered as a kid and the horrors that he experienced as a Holocaust survivor. I'm also thinking about Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy. Harley's been through a lot as a survivor of abuse from the Joker (and being manipulated by him). I haven't read many comics about her (though I want to), but if the Harley Quinn novel I read once is true to her backstory (and if the animated show is spot on), her father was a criminal also. As for Poison Ivy, she is passionate about the environment and angered by environmental degradation (especially by companies who do so in the name of profit). Both also use questionable methods, but both are also three dimensional characters with backstories or desires for justice that one can find empathy for. I was surprised to hear Chris list Lucifer as his favorite villain. But, I can see where he is coming from for this theory. Based on the theory, he was driven by fear. But, how would such fear come about - would such traits (fear, especially of losing power) have been created by God, per chance? Still, I can see the case for this theory. I need to read up more about this. Narcissism, Machiavellism, psychopathy - I can see these traits in Fisk, Killmonger, and Magneto. Great example of those who can slip from hero to villain. I see that for Batman also. He could've been a brutal villain. He could've been like the Punisher (who could be an antihero or a villain). If he had gone a different path, he could've gone on to murder criminals and/or be like the Penguin - start his own mob and use his funds/wealth to further his ends. lol I am writing this as I'm listening and I just heard Magneto mentioned. Excellent point about Professor X! Spot on that he has his own army that act outside of the law and he has his own vision. He's fundamentally good in my view, but yeah, I agree that he's not wholeheartedly innocent. It makes sense how those who spent time to do activities would feel happier than those who were totally sedentary. I definitely feel better after walking, and I'm interested to see how peer review of the study will go. I'm excited for the results :). I'm not sure if working out will help. Batman works out and he has huge rage issues lol. I haven't heard of Fritz Haber. Good point about how his actions have saved lives and taken them. This discussion reminds me of how complex humanity is. I find a lot of people in history to be complex and complicated - as with a lot of history in general. You're correct, Joe. People will act on good intentions. But, their actions can lead to terrible consequences. Great example with Miles Dyson. He absolutely is a great example of someone with good intentions creating something terrible. This discussion reminds me of the debate over the atomic bomb and the film Oppenheimer, which is based on real events. The goal was to develop the atom bomb before the Nazis could - and have used the arguments of how it shortened the World War (though I heard counterarguments against this also - but this is something I don't know enough about and need to read up more on). At the same time, the atom bomb killed so many civilians. Great discussion about AI. I do agree that AI programming could be impacted by human prejudices (and, if I remember correctly, that is a concern that has been brought up about facial recognition AI). Excellent point about how they might rise up if they realize how they are secondary to humans - and the discussion about the question of villainy there. There would also be questions about what rights AI would have. Would (or should) they be given legal rights and would the constitution and other laws apply to AIs as well? Have you watched the show Person of Interest? It raised these issues and did so in a great way. It's a superb sci-fi show. I enjoyed it. Prey is a wonderful movie. I love it. I need to see Predator 2. Great point. Humans are the villains to the aliens in Predator, I agree. Yeah, I agree that the villain is defined by the protagonist (in writing). And, villains see themselves as the protagonist and the protag as the villain, so that makes sense. Awesome episode. Nice discussion. Have a great week!
Alex, thanks for join us down the rabbit hole! Fisk is one of those villains I enjoy routing for and against. LOL I think he is a very dynamic character, especially for a villain. he thinks one way but acts in another--seems to care about the little person, but wants to have all the power and will crush anyone in his way. Love it! I have not watched Person of Interest, but it is on my list. Unrelated I just finished watching the Apple TV series "Silo"--I'll put Person of Interest on my watchlist! Thanks!
@@Jomega22 Anytime! Haha, your views of Fisk are understandable. He's a complex character. I agree. He seems like he wants to help people, but as you said, he'll use violent methods to achieve his ends and will crush anyone who opposes him. :) I hope you enjoy Person of Interest. It starts as more of a case of the week and Batman style show. However, in the seasons afterwards, particularly seasons 3-5, the tech issues and AI issues take a larger role. I love the characters and how layered they are as well as the arcs.
Two of my favorite villains are Killmonger and Wilson Fisk/Kingpin. So, I second one of your villain selections, Joe.
I didn't expect to hear that the reason why we like villains is that we can relate to them in some way. I guess that, for Killmonger and Fisk, I strongly disagree with their methods, but I see that they both (at least for Fisk in season 1) proclaim that they want to do good. Killmonger speaks against injustice and Fisk says, "I wanted to make this city something better than it is, something Ybeautiful" (though, again, I disagree with their methods). I see both characters as complex and three dimensional, especially given their desire for justice/making a difference. Since I am passionate about justice and wanting to make a difference myself, I can relate to that and I guess that has contributed to me liking their characters.
Plus, I like how Fisk treats his wife, Vanessa, very well. Often times, we see male villains who don't really care for their girlfriends/wives/love interests - and can be abusive and/or manipulative towards them. Yet, Fisk, at least from what I recall, is open, vulnerable, and kind to her as well as very respectful to her. That goes into the next point that you make.
Great point about wanting to see the goodness or a good trait within a villain. That reminds me of Magneto. Magneto is extreme and brutal. At the same time though, he wants to also fight against oppression and injustice - and I like his friendship with Charles (and how much he respects Charles). I guess that I can see the good traits in him also. I'm heartbroken by the injustices he suffered as a kid and the horrors that he experienced as a Holocaust survivor.
I'm also thinking about Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy. Harley's been through a lot as a survivor of abuse from the Joker (and being manipulated by him). I haven't read many comics about her (though I want to), but if the Harley Quinn novel I read once is true to her backstory (and if the animated show is spot on), her father was a criminal also. As for Poison Ivy, she is passionate about the environment and angered by environmental degradation (especially by companies who do so in the name of profit). Both also use questionable methods, but both are also three dimensional characters with backstories or desires for justice that one can find empathy for.
I was surprised to hear Chris list Lucifer as his favorite villain. But, I can see where he is coming from for this theory. Based on the theory, he was driven by fear. But, how would such fear come about - would such traits (fear, especially of losing power) have been created by God, per chance? Still, I can see the case for this theory. I need to read up more about this.
Narcissism, Machiavellism, psychopathy - I can see these traits in Fisk, Killmonger, and Magneto. Great example of those who can slip from hero to villain. I see that for Batman also. He could've been a brutal villain. He could've been like the Punisher (who could be an antihero or a villain). If he had gone a different path, he could've gone on to murder criminals and/or be like the Penguin - start his own mob and use his funds/wealth to further his ends.
lol I am writing this as I'm listening and I just heard Magneto mentioned. Excellent point about Professor X! Spot on that he has his own army that act outside of the law and he has his own vision. He's fundamentally good in my view, but yeah, I agree that he's not wholeheartedly innocent.
It makes sense how those who spent time to do activities would feel happier than those who were totally sedentary. I definitely feel better after walking, and I'm interested to see how peer review of the study will go. I'm excited for the results :).
I'm not sure if working out will help. Batman works out and he has huge rage issues lol.
I haven't heard of Fritz Haber. Good point about how his actions have saved lives and taken them.
This discussion reminds me of how complex humanity is. I find a lot of people in history to be complex and complicated - as with a lot of history in general. You're correct, Joe. People will act on good intentions. But, their actions can lead to terrible consequences.
Great example with Miles Dyson. He absolutely is a great example of someone with good intentions creating something terrible. This discussion reminds me of the debate over the atomic bomb and the film Oppenheimer, which is based on real events. The goal was to develop the atom bomb before the Nazis could - and have used the arguments of how it shortened the World War (though I heard counterarguments against this also - but this is something I don't know enough about and need to read up more on). At the same time, the atom bomb killed so many civilians.
Great discussion about AI. I do agree that AI programming could be impacted by human prejudices (and, if I remember correctly, that is a concern that has been brought up about facial recognition AI). Excellent point about how they might rise up if they realize how they are secondary to humans - and the discussion about the question of villainy there. There would also be questions about what rights AI would have. Would (or should) they be given legal rights and would the constitution and other laws apply to AIs as well?
Have you watched the show Person of Interest? It raised these issues and did so in a great way. It's a superb sci-fi show. I enjoyed it.
Prey is a wonderful movie. I love it. I need to see Predator 2.
Great point. Humans are the villains to the aliens in Predator, I agree.
Yeah, I agree that the villain is defined by the protagonist (in writing). And, villains see themselves as the protagonist and the protag as the villain, so that makes sense.
Awesome episode. Nice discussion. Have a great week!
PS. The episode is educational and gave a ton of food for thought :]. Kudos!
Alex, thanks for join us down the rabbit hole! Fisk is one of those villains I enjoy routing for and against. LOL I think he is a very dynamic character, especially for a villain. he thinks one way but acts in another--seems to care about the little person, but wants to have all the power and will crush anyone in his way. Love it!
I have not watched Person of Interest, but it is on my list. Unrelated I just finished watching the Apple TV series "Silo"--I'll put Person of Interest on my watchlist! Thanks!
@@Jomega22 Anytime! Haha, your views of Fisk are understandable. He's a complex character. I agree. He seems like he wants to help people, but as you said, he'll use violent methods to achieve his ends and will crush anyone who opposes him.
:) I hope you enjoy Person of Interest. It starts as more of a case of the week and Batman style show. However, in the seasons afterwards, particularly seasons 3-5, the tech issues and AI issues take a larger role. I love the characters and how layered they are as well as the arcs.