Sonic Frontiers: Update 3 Is Having Some Heated Discourse
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- Опубликовано: 5 авг 2024
- It's time to respond to the most debated topics within the discussion of Sonic Frontiers: Update 3 - The Final Horizon.
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Sonic Frontiers: Update 3 Is Having Some Heated Discourse
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Links:
Twitter: / matthasnocuts
My channel to subscribe: / @matthasnocuts
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Timestamps:
Intro: (0:00)
The "Skill Issue" Argument: (1:33)
I Treated Playable Characters Unfairly: (4:49)
I Dislike Update 3 For Views: (6:34)
Cyberspace Is Good & Bad?: (8:50)
Mini-bosses Are Fun: (11:54)
Tails' Homing Attack Doesn't Matter: (12:25)
I Played This In One Sitting: (13:03)
Update 3 Has WEIRD Platforming: (14:12)
Are Sonic Fans To Blame?: (16:07)
Outro: (18:06)
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Credits:
Timber Treetrunk Zone Background: @sonicthehedgehogbackground390
Metroid Dread Footage: @longplayarchive
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Hello, I make content on various types of video games! My favorite franchises are Sonic and Mario, as you can tell, I love platformers! If you like to watch reviews, video essays, or discussions about video games, I highly recommend you stick with me because we do a lot of that here! Enjoy your stay!
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Software used:
Video editing software: Premiere Pro
Graphic design: Photoshop cs6
Screen recorder: Elgato/obs/other options
Microphone: Blue yeti
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#SonicTheHedgehog #SEGA #sonicfrontiers 
Игры
I loved update 3, and I completely agree with you, criticisms are made by those who still care about the franchise, in fact it was the criticisms that made this Update a Reality
It's kinda funny how this update definitely is made with all the criticisms in mind for Sonic Frontiers. BUT, Morio Kishimoto kinda confirmed it himself that they didn't have all the time in the world to put all the feedback. I kinda see it as acknowledgment that yeah they could've done better. But they did lots of good things alongside the bad!
@@heroicgangster9981The only question that remains is: can they uphold what they did by taking what they learned from Frontiers and apply it to future games?
@@Butwhythough881 Hopefully yeah
@@Butwhythough881I can definetely see it, they did their very best with frontiers and made the game better, and more fun. So I can definetely see them improving on the things that they couldn't with this game
@@betlergaen5757 As long as they continue on that path and don't deviate, other than getting out of their comfort zone and connecting with fans
Personally I had loads of fun with update 3. Like yea there were some stuff that I didn’t enjoy but honestly if people enjoy it, why hate? Let everyone have their own opinions!
Fr
Fr fr
Yes
Did you really expect sonic fans to respect other peoples opinions?
100% agree, let people enjoy what they want
The Sonic franchise as a whole has been getting things back on track since the live action movie in 2020 and with the 3 DLC updates frontiers has gotten since the beginning of this year, it looks like a much better game now than it was when it first released almost a whole year ago.
thanks for including my comment! I think pop-in and some other aspects of cyberspace levels (like not knowing which platforms will fall in 4-B) drag down the experience of those levels but if they keep going in this direction for cyberspace levels in the next 3D sonic game, I think they could be the best levels in the series
First off is this thee Mr bowblox himself and second I really hope that they make tails knuckles and Amy more unique movements for the next game may have to do a concept video about it want knuckles to have boxer type moves that just combo and combo and combo
For the first time, I agree with everything you’ve said in a video. I chalk it all down to toxic positivity. I also blame Fromsoftware for this. They make a series of hard games, and a bunch of fedora wearing overachieving nerds come in acting all superior.
I think the update is horribly unbalanced, and I almost hate it. If I were to finish it because at this point, I don’t think I will(and nobody better try to convince me to, I don’t care), I probably would NEVER play it again.
Honestly to me. If the controversy is about how hard the game is, and the jank that leads to the game being more difficult, or the difficulty causing jank. Then the update is pretty good overall for players that can adjust to what the game suddenly expects, but future updates or game sections like Update 3 definitely need more fine-tuning and feedback incorporated.
Trail 2 is testing your knowledge about the enemies and their behaviours, you have to keep your distance from those enemies so they throw their shell at you and then you can wail on them. It's literally a fair challenge that makes you use your knowledge of the game. The only issue with it is that most people don't choose to engage in the combat so they wouldn't have this information and would struggle compared to someone who did choose to engage with these types of enemies during the main game
Yeah, he keeps saying that using the parry is "abusing the game mechanics" when that's literally how games work. You use the tools you are given in order to solve challenges. I figured out the parry thing without a guide, and I felt smart and satisfied for having figured out a solution to destroy those enemies.
@@evdestroy5304 Thing is, the game doesn't really tell you what to do regardless of your ''knowledge about enemies behaviours'' since I was one of the people that beat it by just doing cyloop, and yeah I knew you could parry those but didn't really bother to do it since I saw no point in it, I thought that just staying in the same place holding parry and then punching is simply boring and not even challenging, thus if the trial was just that it'd make absolute no sense, but since apparently there's 2 ways of doing trial 2 (Parry/Cyloop) we'll never know which one was the ''correct' way of doing it, if there even is a correct way of doing so.
Not to say that the timer limits in the trials in general makes no sense.
@@evdestroy5304 yes and while some may argue that it's artificial difficulty because they reduce all your stats to 1, many popular games such as Bloodborne and Persona 4 also implement this type of challenge. By removing something that the player has relied on throughout the game it forces them to experiment and try different solutions. Although maybe reducing the stats by that much was too far, maybe if the cap was 50 in every stat it would have balanced the gameplay a bit better
@Just_another_Taiream_fan You're right. The game doesn't tell you what to do. You actually have to use your brain and come up with your own strategy. I know the past decade of Sonic games have conditioned fans into not doing that anymore, so I can understand some of the frustration.
@Just_another_Taiream_fan the correct way is the one thats successful so both are correct.
I had a lot of fun with update 3, but I do agree balancing could of been a bit better. I think my main complaint though with it is that I feel the perfect parry should have at least an indicator if your a little early or late, would of loved to have known how much I needed to adjust my parry timing so I hit it.
At the very least its good to know the perfect parry timing can be adjusted by changing the difficulty, helped so much with the titan fights and final boss.
Will say as my friend put it, its like the situation with KH3 where the game got critical mode post launch that made the game so much harder. Of course that doesn't invalidate any arguments but its mainly the reason why I don't see it as too unfair.
Personally I think people should just respect others opinions and if you enjoy it just enjoy it don't force anyone else to enjoy it just have fun and move on with your day also it's not a skill issue it's just bad balance even if I loved this update but it's never that easy with this fandom on a good note hope superstars is great
Its an amazing update but the difficulty balance is really bad, this update really isn't for the casual gamer
@@Natsuki_Kat yep
honestly, i'm not even betting that Superstars is gonna be that bad, we're just getting VERY solid and good Sonic game that mostly everybody would agree on
I respect others opinions for not liking it but the calling the update unfair is just not true at all all the platforms are fair and you are the problem that you can’t beat it , it’s hard but it’s not that hard the most of the problem is a skill issue, I get not enjoying the update but calling it unfair cause you ain’t good is not true especially there is easy mode for people who don’t like much challenge or want to improve ( except trial 5 it’s really for the pros and I get where he coming from but using the same move isn’t cheesing it’s knowing the best strategies to beat the challenge and in trial 2 case it’s what you need to do)
@@kaxcommentssomethingREALbut to put the future to rest superstars will flop hard
the trial 2 argument 'youre not using your full moveset' is exactly the point, literally the only skill you have access to is the loop. so you either play it perfectly looping every time or you use what little the game gives you to go for a better time or make it easier for you.
Yea when he mentioned trial 2 is point kinda fell flat. Like its very easy once you get the rhythm down of bait attack (however many times you can) then parry repeat
Trial 2 was great, it actually forced me to take a step back and use my brain to think of a better strategy than just brute forcing it. That’s what Sonic needs more of, sure you could do it the intended way but don’t you want to experiment and come up with a better way all on your own? Since when is abusing your move set to come up with a better method a bad thing? By that logic, spin dash jumping to skip level design in SA1 is Bad.
@@Terminal_Apotos agreed loved the challenge throughout this update
@@Terminal_Apotos the fight starts you with max rings and you have your speed boost powerup effect, making your boosted cylooping take up too much time unless youre like a god. but if you take a hit to slow down you can actually do it the intended way with like 10 seconds to spare. knowing the game mechanics to that degree should be praised not bashed on.
Pros
- you get a fun flying mechanic with Tails
-New Super Sonic form (one day we’ll get “Hyper Sonic”)
- Playable Knuckles is always a nice feature.
Cons
-Those towers are cancer
-Terrible difficulty spikes
Yeah, I see people praising the difficulty but like, bruh, why is this still harder than dark souls when I play it on easy mode? Like wtf? sure, leave the aids difficulty for hard mode, but why not make things easier for medium and especially easy difficulty? I mean ffs sonic is a franchise that kids play, no kid is gonna have the patience for update 3.
Don't forget Amy and her magic cards!
@@Alino- Trying to do King Koko’s trial on hard mode made me lose some sanity. You have to be perfect with your parry timing. You have maybe 2 frames to block an attack and that’s kinda ridiculous.
@@hiddenflare6169 I keep trying to
I have no dog in the fight (haven't played Frontiers) and I get where both you and Premy are coming from when it comes to nuance in terms of difficulty/challenge. I can definitely see your point in balancing difficulty curve/spikes if 2 and 5 are strict, but 1, 3 and 4 are extremely easy by comparison. However, it should be noted what's considered "fair" or meaningful challenge is completely subjective, Matt.
In the context of update 3 alone, some might find it to be incredibly fun and rewarding to keep shaving off their time to master the challenges as a whole gauntlet (as fast as possible) or just up their best timing for trial 2 or best rings remaining in trial 5. Hell, from what I hear, Update 3 alone already about as long if not longer than some whole Sonic games lol.
Are there optimal "cheese" tactics to best conquer them? Of course. But isn't that same logic applied to mastering/speedrunning most stages in Sonic games-- such as the use of very specific shortcuts, exploits and glitches, dominant tactics repeated? This is true of whether we're talking Sonic Frontiers Update 3, Sonic Unleashed, the Adventure games etc.
While critics might be less nuanced and harshly generalizing the Sonic fanbase (and I'd agree they're dumbing down the points both of you made), I still think it's important to note that at the end of the day, evaluating good/fair/fun/meaningful challenge in Sonic games is a subjective debate.
Thank you for bringing in some reason😅 its like after the update i enjoyed all of the difficulty aspects. Come to find online that people are hating on it why? Because they cant do it
@@TheCourier0613 Thanks! To Matt's credit, he did complete it before announcing he's not a fan of how it was handled. All I'm trying to say is that one player's "good/fair" challenge is another player's "bad/unfair" challenge. 🤷♂
We'd all do better to be respectful of each other's nuanced criticisms or happy praise even if we disagree or have different experiences. (Or if you're me, an uninvolved bystander watching the chaos unfold in the fandom lol)
I'm glad you enjoyed your time though!
@@josepha4161 @josepha4161 your spitting facts and i cant disagree. Sadly it seems the discourse gets so inflammatory that you can make the mistake of joining in sometimes. Especially cus kishimoto views players feedbacks on twitter it makes it more tense if that makes sense. (Cus i worry that he may make the next sonic game too easy after seeing this.)
But can the difficulty been improved the experience overall be better? Absolutely of course it can. But the way fans complain its as if they want no difficulty.
@@TheCourier0613not everyone enjoys challenging games. Y’all need to get that through your heads. These games don’t revolve around you all.
@@Bornagainvillain so they revolve around you then? Why must one side suffer for the others amusement😢.
Im being dramatic lol but this is what the difficulty mode options are for. If you dont like challenging games choose easy.
I will choose hard or normal for the challenge and enjoyment of story.
for some reason, I kept unlocking cyber space levels in different areas of the island and they
kept being the same one where sonic has a bomb above him. IDK if this is a glitch or not
If im being real, the whole "skill issue" argument is not a real argument to me. Super Mario Sunshine is one of my favorite Mario games, and that game's level of unfairness IS something worthy of criticism. Especially since no other mario game really had that issue. This update is the same, and i don't blame people having a problem about it even though i myself liked this update. People can feel how they feel, and sonic fans just need to be civil with one another.
Based af take. Rare enjoyer of difficult (or perceived to be unfair difficulty) games without denigrating those that don't enjoy them. Too bad you're in the minority though.
Facts
Not like it ever was a real argument to begin with, people who say it are either 13 years old at most, or trolls who likely can’t even beat it themselves
How unfar something is is subjective. Its a skill issue when a good amount of people didn't struggle with something but when you sucka dn can't get your instant gratification you complain and whine like a toddler about unfairness and difficulty. Don't try to play stupid either. You guys sound more like 10 year olds than functioning adults when you dismiss skill issue when it is.@@vwavefun
Sonic fans basically sucked all meaning out of "skill issue". Like bruh, yes, I suck at videogames. But that does not prevent the final trial from being obnoxious and not even interessting because it is still repeated content.
3:30 that just another form of fighting those guys.. is not an abuse mechanic or cheese. The guy is testing you on how to fight those guys quick.
I have auto camera off, but with amy, her double / third jump randomly resets my camera view and I can’t see where I’m trying to land. And her homing attack seems delayed from the button input, or is that just me? But I will agree, she is my favorite to play as 😬
I agree with most of the things that you say but I advise you to replay the update without any rush while taking your time, because when I personally started playing it, I tried to rush it and it wasnt very enjoyable, but when decided to take my time, it was more enjoyable but I hope they do something to fix the weird inconsistensy with the trials's difficuly
Pretty much where I stand. I rushed the first go so I wouldn’t be spoiled, and it was super frustrating. My second run was significantly more fun. I still think there’s some serious balance issues, especially with the trials, but any problems I have with it can be easily patched, which is nice.
Yeah when I started playing I didn’t immediately rush to the story stuff because I wanted to get a good feel of the characters and see if I can find extra stuff. It’s best to get skill points characters to unlock their skills as soon as possible and do challenges to unlock more of the map to have a somewhat better time. Also if you rush you miss out on alot of the lore and character interactions
Honestly I was on the whinny baby bandwagon, but after playing for a while I found myself actually enjoying the update. It brings something new to the table. I think for less experienced players they should tweak a few things, but overall the game was solid.
Indeed and the difficulty was a welcome addition.
@@TheCourier0613I finally beat it in extreme mode today. Man that 5th trial was fucked, i literally had 6 rings left when I finally completed it
@smithaz05 bro, you're a better sonic player than me 😤. Only did it on hard. But im getting excited to try it on extreme soon. After i try out the cool new cyberspace stages that is.
Okay, so I kinda call boosh on the “I had to ‘abuse a mechanic’ to beat Trial 2” argument. First of all, they take away most of your other skills, so like, what else were you supposed to do? Plus, people saying that they were able to beat them using the Cyloop doesn’t count as “abusing a mechanic”? Not to mention literally nothing else works on those enemies because that’s the point, they’re enemies that’re designed around 1 or 2 of Sonic’s moveset, just like certain enemies in Metroid Dread. And speaking of, an Metroid fan worth their salt knows the mechanic you “abuse” in all Metroid games, Dread included, are Missiles. And with Dread, you have the parry, which you can do to almost every boss. So like, that comparison doesn’t work because it’s wrong. Trial 2 was tough, yes, but I felt great learning a strategy around it, an eventually overcoming it. Trial 5 is the one where I’ll agree the difficulty spike was whack. But again, I felt great completing it after working out a good strategy for each. And yes, I had to work out a different strategy for each because not only to all three Titans work differently, but some attacks just weren’t working. I stomped the hell outta Giganto, sure, but that didn’t help much against Wyvern. I had to chain combos for that one because just stomping wasn’t reliable enough (and the chain combo strat didn’t work against Giganto because of the multiple hitboxes Sonic kept locking onto) Not to mention time management in general, when to use a cinematic attack on Wyvern, when to use the Quick Cyloop, etc. Yeah, things could’ve been made easier a smidge, but overall I still feel great after overcoming such a huge obstacle.
Even trial 5 once you get the timing down is easy too.
i love the dlc. i’m just scared sonic team will be hesitant to include new playable characters in the future because of the 50/50 opinion divide about them
Same but my worry is with ease. Will they see some of the fans frustration (imo skill issue) and make the next game incredibly easy?
@@TheCourier0613And ppl wondered why games like Colors, Gens, and Forces were made to be easy and forgiving. Bc if they were harder, Sonic fans would still complain, just in the opposite direction 😔
I really feel like Trial 2's intended method was to parry that stuff no? Why else would they make parrying and cylooping the only things available there?
Finished my second run yesterday and got 100% (you don’t get anything for it, BTW), and had way more fun this time around since I knew what to expect. But it doesn’t change the fact that this update is an unbalanced mess. Just sucks that the sides range from “this is irredeemable garbage” to “just git gud” without realizing where both are coming from. The nice thing is that the problems can be easily patched. Once we get a good balance and polish patch, I can easily say it’s worth it.
Master King Trial is still garbage.
Correction: there is a 100% reward. It just tells you how to beat The End. *After* you already beat it. What the heck, Sonic Team?
I mean, you don't *have* to have beaten it yet
Thats like your opinion bro. Master king trials is fun and kinda easy to go through once you got the timing down
@@evdestroy5304Yes you do. I completed everything before fighting the boss and the prompt wasn’t there. Reloaded my file right after setting it as the clear file and the prompt then showed up.
@@TheCourier0613waste of a comment
@@SilverSpireZ you dont even need the hints to defeat the end its not that complex.
Hey i have a question for everyone. How long does it take to beat ouranos island in new story? I really want to know how many hours does it take to know if I can do it from 1 sitting or not.
I think I spent around 10-15 hours on it?
Wow, really that much???
@@Kaktusiooo_PL Yeah it's pretty beefy, I took two days beating it and then a third to 100% it
If you do everything story wise it’s 5-maybe 6 hours. This ain’t some 15 hour campaign. It only last this long because of the difficulty.
Okay thanks guys
Man I’m getting tired of this whenever there are some SOME things even 1% wrong or maybe not objective in a sonic video the community makes these BASELESS claims and it’s t annoys me I can’t critique a video or even say o what that didn’t happen to me without perpetuating a problem Debate or healthy discussion is dead.
Good video Matt
There are things that never changes huh? The amount of discourse is a clear signal that the update is not perfect. The content there is good, but the update is not polished enough, there are clearly problems with it, and the lack of polish brings it down.
Imo it needs a patch to clear some things up, if they adjust and polish some things they could easily fix a lot of the problems in this update
One issue I've had with the update was that the new Supreme fight didn't convey what to do very well.
I do like how they made Amy Knuckles and Tails relevant again, my own issue with the update is definitely the difficulty spike.
most of the issues can be fixed with a bug fix
I think for playable character they just wanna test the water first because this is first time in a sonic game has playable character since sonic 06 and maybe they gonna fix it or they gonna do more polished for the playable character in the next sonic game that was I thought
Amy could do homing attack in Heroes and everyone (including Knuckles and Tails) could do it in Rivals 1&2.
I'm pretty sure they can in Shadow the Hedgehog, too, when they're amigo characters. If you're on GameCube, player 2 can control them as well.
I don't understand this point at 12:36, people have *genuinely* forgotten sonic heroes existed. Amy could do it there. She was a speed type character just like sonic, espio and shadow thusly having the needed move. Imo it makes no sense for knuckles to have one as he's had a clear and defined moveset. Again SEGA can just whim up a change but at least for *me* I think frontiers relying on homing attack as much as they did is the *real* problem. Have half of the puzzles not rely on a homing attack chain or something and suddenly the problem doesn't exist. But due to the staff and the fact sonic is still accounted for it makes it more egregious for people so I understand why you're mad but really SEGA should make it clear who can and can't do what moves.
Tails and Knuckles had a homing attack in Shadow the Hedgehog
@@evdestroy5304 yeah, but tbh i don't count that one as every ai partner from sonic's squad that was an animal used it.
Matt I don't care what people say when I get my game back I'm up and ready for the challenge
Correction: ONLINE Sonic fans are arguing. In person discourse is something else, entirely. I attended the Sonic Symphony in L.A. this past weekend, and all the discussion for this DLC I participated in or overheard at the event was civil, healthy, and mostly positive. Remember, people, the internet is not a real place.
But with kishimoto reading fan feedback its a scary idea he sees this and makes the next game incredibly easy or something.
4:49 "Suffer, and THEN you get to have fun."
Literally!!! The trials were hell. Not been that angry at a game in a long time 😅 But that final boss, truly amazing that was so fun
Where do you go to switch characters after you beat the dlc ?
Master King Koco
@@evdestroy5304 i appreciate you
The problem with trial 5 isn't that *I* can't beat it on my first try. The problem is that seemingly *nobody* can beat it on their first try, because it heavily relies on a mechanic that *does not exist* outside of trial 5 and the new final boss.
Parry doesnt exist outside of trial 5?
@@TheCourier0613 Perfect Parry specifically. There *is* a parry throughout the rest of the game, but only trial 5 and the final boss in the update force you to actually time it - the rest of the game actually encourages you not to worry about parry timing.
@@Anon-Amys well thats not a mechanic that doesnt exist outside trial 5. Thats simply a limitation put on one of your moves which is meant to increase difficulty.
I don't want to be that "erm, achtually" guy. But Amy could homing attack in previous games. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of Heroes and Adventures 2. Sure not all previous games but enough to be mentioned.
Man you are on fire with how much your uploading 🔥
Amy could homing attack in sonic heroes so it makes sense to her. But i love this video and would like if you answer fans questions more or just react to what fans say.
17:40 so making a time limit stricter is not an authentic challenge? but 1-2 was almost universally praised for its difficult s-rank time? granted you didnt NEED to s-rank 1-2 to pass while you do have to deal with the tough limits of the trial. but for an update to have dropped after extreme mode update released and the homing dashing being made official in the result screen annotations. the developers expect people to have mastered the games movement mechanics and techniques over the past 10 months by the time you play the update.
side note but if people have a problem for doing the last trial or final boss with requiring perfect parrys then the best advice is to put it on easy mode. it makes the parry window 1 second instead of 0.1 second that it is in hard mode.
1. You answered the problem to your issue. You don't NEED to S rank 1-2 to progress
2. You expect people to be playing this game over the span of 10 months (not even play it but MASTER it 😭). People wanna play other games that are not Frontiers
3. A well designed game should not require someone to switch difficulty modes mid playthrough to have an enjoyable experience
@@technorave555 'skill issue'
@@gameboy3800 you should speedrun frontiers
@@technorave555 homing dash is so satisfying to get a launch across half the stage
Oh yeah i heard of that technique but never did it in my playthrough, doesn't make you zoom through the cyberspace stages?
I’m not bad at the game but I really agree with you completing the towers gets so Annoying at the end of the game that I reached a point where I don’t care anymore and just wanna finish the dlc idk about 2nd trial because it was easy for me but the fifth trial was really stupid especially on hard mode the parry window is a split second and the game is obviously not designed with perfect parry in mind so it wasn’t fun to use it and it felt unfair when I miss a parry but the final boss was an example where they actually designed the perfect parry in mind in the phase where you parry these electricity balls they were easy to spot on the screen and you can react to them I enjoyed the boss even on hard difficulty but everything else in the update was good to okay to me it’s just trial 5 and the towers that ruined it for me but the final boss was so good and it was worth the struggle in my opinion
Weird, I kinda agree in everything you said, although for me, each time I think about Leveling up stats, its always a reason to go back
I'm scared of how sonic team is gonna respond to all this, knowing them.
They’re probably gonna stick to making things easier. A lot of people don’t think the challenges were fair. And considering how much they get rushed to finish some games, I doubt they’re gonna suddenly make every player happy with the perfect challenge. So they’ll go with what works, what’s decent to a lot of people, and stick to what they’ve been doing probably
It’s a thing that happens a lot with games sadly. Something new is tried, it isn’t liked, so they stop doing it to avoid the risk
I understand if they do just go back to what they’ve done before. It’s probably better for a mediocre product in peoples eyes than a bad one. If people don’t think they’re capable of making good and fair challenge, next best thing for them to do is go back to what’s always worked, if only at a limited level
Unfortunately it’s almost certain we’re going to go back to Fetus Level Difficulty where all the Platforming is Basic and Automated.
@@kirbo4111 Plus, this is a japanese studio so stuff probably gets horribly misunderstood
@@kirbo4111im legit worried they'll do that. Make the next sonic game in incredibly easy cause of some fans' skill issue😭
@@Terminal_Apotos😭😭😭 why do fans have to blame the game for their lack of skill man
First, the whole purpose of the trials is to use parry because the perfect parry mechanics. The whole point is the player to get use to time the parry, hence why the enemies of the trials move in a fast pace. I'm surprised no one noticed that. Second, the challenges wasn't unfair, and platforms are the way they are because of the theme of cyberspace going out of control because of the end effecting the real world. I think sonic team was trying show us how out of control cyberspace is.
and you can put it on Easy if the Towers are too much making them a breeze, the only truly hard Trial is the King's one and second one if you don't know what to do
You can beat trial 2 with no parry tho, just cylooping and punching
3:30 That's the point of these trials though (besides the first one), they all involve parrying so in the final boss you're used to doing perfect parries. I agree it doesn't make much sense in terms of balance and it is too difficult, but that is the intended way to beat it.
The thing is, none of the trials require you to perfect parry except the last one. If the goal was to introduce and get the player used to the concept, they failed heavily.
Even the first one I'd say involves some parrying with how fast the enemies go
@jossebrodeur6033 uhh master king trials? Literally before the final super sonic fight you do past super sonic fights with the perfect parry. If that isnt preparing the player than i dont know what is
Edit: didnt read your comment properly my bad😅 i would still argue that the fact that parry is an integral part of the game and showed up on the subsequent trials leading up to the 5th. (1 2 3 4 i think i used parry for all of them🤔) is helpful enough.
And if parry wasn't an integral part, i still think trial 5 is more than enough preparation.
@aquaticpulse2501 He said "except the last one"
Though to be fair, I think that's adequate enough. If you beat it, you get access to the final boss.
@@evdestroy5304 oh my bad😅 i should correct that comment. Thanks for letting me know
I think the problem is that the games physics and challenges are clashing very harshly with one another, the controls being unprecise and inconsistent makes precision platforming almost unfair and sometimes impossible to really predict how things will play out when making decisions on where to jump and where to boost. Couple that with the fact that giving the players the option to change the variable of the games movements and physics like acceleration, movement speed, top speed, keeping boost while jumping and now giving a Spin Dash that clashes with the already vague design and layout of the game. How exactly do you even design a game for every possible variable in the movement people may be playing with? How do you keep it consistent and equally challenging? And is it even possible without significantly cutting the players speed artificially? And I think the answer is simply, no. Sonic Team is again attempting to please everyone by taking significant drastic overcorrections without any nuance. Or a basic understanding in mechanical game design on how a games core is how the mechanics complement one another. But Frontiers is filled to the brim with half ideas and a rocky junky foundation.
i used the dash panels and to make the cyloop in the tower and there’s another place in the game i did that too can’t remember where
How many trials are there?
I do feel that a lot of Update 3 can be boiled down to cheap difficulty that doesn't feel fair, but at the same time I don't feel like that outweighs the positive of the update. I don't think the update is bad or even mid, but I do think it was held back from being truly great by some questionable design decisions.
I will say that the new Sonic devs have gotten much better at level design since Forces, but they still haven't quite gotten the whole thing figured out. It feels like they are in a very experimental phase, figuring out what works and what doesn't and where they should put boundaries on their creativity and where they shouldn't. This whole process is overall somewhat to the detriment of Frontiers, as it's not as great of a game as it possibly could have been. However, they are undoubtedly getting a lot of very useful criticism from this whole process, and that can be used to help refine the process and make the next game something truly incredible.
I think the biggest thing that needs to stop happening is Sonic fans getting overly emotional at each other for simply having opinions. This can be said about the gaming community as a whole, but right now it's especially relevant to Sonic fans. People need to learn to have some more chill and not freak out because some random person on the internet said something they don't agree with.
Regarding about the difficulty of the game, i think the only part that I can say it was poorly designed was the perfect parry, which it could have worked a lot better if it was attatched to a button after holding RB and LB, like in Breath of the Wild for example.
Nevertheless, I feel this was a great update.
You’re not wrong about there being a lot of unfair difficulty in the update. But I would say that the update itself isn’t that difficult besides the last tower trial, it’s just that the game doesn’t respect the players time. For example a lot of the difficulty could be avoided if the game would just tell you what to do, like with the third trial. All the trials are leading up to the perfect parry, so it’s intended to be beaten by parrying but they just don’t tell you for some reason. Same with the towers and even the final boss, you have to 100% beat the dlc for the game to even tell you you can doge to attack the cord on the final boss. The game would be a lot better if they just explained what they wanted you to do.
3:14
I think that’s how you’re supposed to do it.
Even if it isn’t, I found it pretty fun when I first figured it out.
"skill issue'" is only valid if you were intending to play on hard mode to begin with, but as it stands, even easy mode is hard for a lot of people and that's unfair to people who play easy to experience the story. Also a lot of the difficulty felt artificial, and I'm one of those that beat the whole thing on hard. I'm just sad not all of my friends can enjoy the experience as much as I did even when they just want to experience the content on a game with difficulty settings meant to help with that.
Personally the main things I enjoyed in this update are the cyberstages and the presentation and attack sequences on the final boss.
Also additional comment that I posted in the other video before I saw this one was up about the final boss: I was randomly thinking and you know what could have gone a long way to make the final boss better for the user experience (at a risk)? Supporting character voice lines. It's not very clear how exactly you have to do but if instead of dead silence WHILE YOU LITERALLY HAVE YOUR FRIENDS THERE they could throw a hint at you if it was taking too much time, maybe it could be clearer how to target the cord or to get that gun. Though it probably would undermine the atmosphere a bit, but some other Sonic games weren't shy from having commentary voice lines during final battles.
The game actually does give you a hint.
As a 100% reward. When you’ve already completed the boss.
WHY?!
Easy mode was literally on the Same Level of Difficulty as the Base game. They want Basic and Automated Gameplay, Switch to Easy Mode.
@@SilverSpireZ I appreciate a man of culture who likes a good chadausaurus Rex. You get a thumbs up from me!
Also does it really? I think I was just missing less than half the guardians on the map and that's it, didn't see true 100% and probably won't go back just to beat a few guardians.
Honestly, if you can't beat the update on easy mode, maybe these games aren't for you. The towers in easy mode are chock full of springs and balloons, so all you have to do is mash X until you get to the top. 2 seconds for a parry is insanely generous compared to pretty much any games with a parry in it.
@SirBanana1992 It does. Depending on how much of the island you do, you can receive up to 6 hints, iIrc, with the last one straight up just telling you what to do.
Yea, it's NOT a skill issue if some parts of the update are unfair!
12:25 . A little fun fact about this, both Tails and Knuckles have had the homing attack before. Granted, it was in Advance 3, and you had to be paired with Cream. And Knuckles could only do it while gliding. But I guess it kinda counts, right?
Trying to land that perfect parry on hard with the literally 8 frame window you have after a slight delay was where it stopped being fun for me, but everything before was just fine. Trials were a bit wonky, but climbing the towers was super engaging and I loved the platform of bits that all the other characters had
3:47 you don’t have your full move set on this trial
The way I see it, all the trials are to help you learn to parry before you get to The End so that the perfect parry shift doesn't feel as jarring since you have had all this time to practice parrying with Master King Koco's trial, trial 3, and I personally think the parrying method might be the intended way to beat trial 2 which is why the cyloop method is practically impossible. I know it kinda sounds like a stretch, but I think the trials were made with good intentions in mind to make the perfect parry less jarring when you do finally get there.
I genuinely believe this was the idea
Which is why Trial 3 allows you to parry normally? It does not teach the player sh*t.
I beated trial 2 with no parry tho
But still good theory
The characters were fine but could absolutely use fine tuning and tweaking, and the only bad difficulty was the master trial challenge as it showed the game wasn't properly made with a perfect parry in mind. Something that the new Supreme/End was, and there the perfect parry worked perfectly.
Platforming challenges were incredibly fun, and I loved the difficulty of most challenges. Especially the tower climbs were a highlight.
They should have had the trials tweaked differently depending on which difficulty you choose instead of having it the exact same for every difficulty. I've went through the final trial literally 23+ times when I would get off of work/down time and it got to the point where I just set the remote down and havent played through the update since, lol. Even on easy mode with the 4 second parry, I'm still not good and I've tried perfecting it plenty of times. Some things just don't click with me ig.
I don’t know if I’m just stupid but I was amazed when I found you could jump of a charged wrench throw and fly higher
I know it’s just me having high hopes but one thing I wanted in this update was super sonic free roam but I had a feeling it wouldn’t happen
I still can’t make it past the first tower....
Hang in there, you got this!
Hey, please don't make yourself suffer through hard challenges because people think it's "cool" or whatever! No shame in switching difficulty, this is YOUR playthrough. If you don't want to change it, than that's up to you 😁
I don't understand what I feel about this update. I can say without a doubt that I was MISERABLE. But.... at the end I became way more familiar with all of the mechanics in the game. I feel like I became a better player and was super excited to go back and apply all of the new knowledge and skills I figured out. I feel like it was a net positive, however, I'm not so sure this was the right way to do it.
although I loved Update 3, I also love to hear other people's opinions on games, and stuff like that. Great video, man! I respect your opinion all the way!
There is a fine line between skill issue and proper balancing
Now yes when people give up on the game entirely without trying to get better a least a small bit or give it another chance that’s a skill issue but when people give valid criticism like knuckles glide doesn’t really handle well or when the parry should be extended just a little bit on hard / extreme then that’s not a skill issue
I personally do like the difficulty even though trail 5 is painfully hard I feel motivated
To get through it
But I know others won’t feel as motivated
To try again as it’s too hard but that’s ok too
Great video
Extending the parry is a skill issue as the perfect parry can be done consistently. Of course saying its a skill issue doesnt mean they cant extend the parry. But it literally is a skill issue when others can do it just fine on multiple occasions.
@@TheCourier0613 true it can be done consistently at least with the final boss and even with the master king trial coco if your that cracked at the game
I’m just saying that I don’t think the timings match up to when you should parry to when the attacks actually hit and should be adjusted a bit
But congratulations to you getting past it on extreme mode definitely not an easy feat
@gn2677 i havent done it on extreme yet but i have done it on hard. And yea of course it isnt perfect and theres room for improvement. (I.e. the attacks can be tweaked to give a more noticable telegraph and the landing of the attacks can be adjusted to make it easier to read)
But how it is now its just a matter of getting the timing down of the titan's attacks even if the telegraph and landing of hit may not be that clear at first glance the timing is consistent througout a titan's particular attack. For example wyverns first claw attack takes around 3 or so seconds to land. You use that as your guide to parry rather than guessing depending on what you see.
And even if you do go down that route after subsequent tries you begin to see at what stage of an animation that the attack will land on your character.
Its difficult, and i encourage those struggling to turn it to easy mode. (The parry window is a bit more forgiving on that mode)
@@TheCourier0613 totally agree I also haven’t completed the master king trial on extreme yet so I had to make a new save to turn it to easy for the trial and beat it first try on easy mode then turned it to hard for the final boss
Also thanks for the tips I’ll keep them in mind if I ever wants to finish that extreme save file
@@gn2677 no worries😎
That said i do agree that its weird how challenge 2 and 5 are the hardest koco challenges. Outside of that though fun fact the ninja challenge was originally supposed to have a minute timer and anotehr reason why they made more time based hcallenges is time constraints but most of all to test ideas for the next game. Also if you struggle with usualy stuff due to timers its still a challenge. The argument of it not being challenging falls apart fairly fast like maybe its not what you wanted or otehrs but your expectations should have been far more reasonable in the first place. Also knuckles shreds minibosses really fast so he and the otehrs are not actually bad in combat. Alot of these rebuttals are you defending your skill issue instead of just saying it wasn't what you wanted and saying you weren't a fan and moving on. The way you responded when talking about playable characters was about the only time your rebuttal was decent.
Thats the feeling i see from a LOT of these sonic tubers and even non sonic tubers reviewing the update. It all feels like they're just defensive regarding their skill issue.
Like of course the difficulty in and of itself can improve to allow more people to get better, but whats already there isnt anything artifical or unbalanced.
17:45 Even though I really liked update 3, its strange that even here the slide STILL isn't used at all! There's absolutely no use for it outside of some combat moves
I kinda disagree with you on the Cyberspace take and the difficulty
My throat hurts becuse how much i screamed at the boss rush
Honestly the only thing that keeps me coming back to sonic frontiers are the mods, i haven't even beaten the campaign from start to finish cause i just screw around with 100% save files and mods and i have at least 50 hours into it. I honestly just turned frontiers into my dream sonic game and while people will say you have to beat the story or do this and that, i say as long as your having fun with the game it shouldn't matter how you approach it. And while yes i beat update 3 and loved the heck out of the final boss i think i'll go back to running around the island with momentum mods and zone out for a bit till the next big sonic game comes around
Didn’t expect a video response with my comment. Appreciate you taking time to read and respond. I can speak for myself and say I had to take breaks after most of the towers just because they can be so daunting. I think this really help refresh me for the next challenges. Definitely enhanced my experience.
hey if you're having trouble with the characters being underlevelled, wait for starfall night. everything that drops is either koko, defense seeds or power seeds. collect as many as possible and you'll practically max out the character immediately
How do you cash in the upgrades?
@@tigerfestivals5137 there are regular elder and hermit koko scattered about the map, you'll either just find them randomly or you can map the island to see where they are :) you can't cash it in with the fancy ass elder and hermit tho those are just story koko
all the trials + the final boss got me better at perfect parrying. sooo worth the challenge imo.
Please read this comment in it's entirety before forming an opinion, I believe it's worth a read.
The issue with the parry is that the game didn't train you to use it skillfully, you never needed to time your parrys in the base game. The only parrys that are debatably unfair are the ones that are given deceptive animations like gigantos spin and his punch but even then you can learn how to do it. You need to learn the timing, recognize telegraphs for specific moves and parry accordingly. you aren't forced to rely on cheese mechanics. YOU chose to use cheese mechanics. The way to do the snake trial is just to cyloop, punch once or twice then stomp and it makes it so easy. The way to do the kings trial is to rely on cylooping them because it doubles your damage. Cannons core in Sonic Adventure 2 is honestly harder than the snake trial and its only a little easier than the kings trial. Do you remember playing that level for your first time through the game as a kid? it KICKED YOUR ASS because its a hard level. Not a single bit of it is unfair which is why you don't see people complaining about it when they do reviews of sa2 today. I know the phrase "git gud" has been memed over the last decade but it came from dark souls players asking for tips and being told to get good. Theres no trick or cheat that will trivialize the challenges and if thats really what you expected then you should have the same complaints about stages like eggmanland, death egg zone etc. If this seems a little harsh thats because I play games like Doom Eternal and souls games that have notoriously been criticized for their "unfair" and "inaccessible" gameplay despite the fact that its not unfair or inaccessible, its just difficult. As Hugo Martin said "A power fantasy that is earned will always be more satisfying than a power fantasy that has been given." By lowering the difficulty you're cheating yourself. I understand that not everybody likes this type of direction and if you don't theres nothing wrong with that, but don't whine about it being unfair or inaccessible when in reality you just haven't put the time in to earn it. I beat the kings trial on hard mode in 3 or so hours, I'm not a god thats naturally good at video games, I just took my time, analyzed my strategy and practiced.
The parry frame data is:
Easy mode: 60 frames (1 second)
Normal: 12 frames (1/5 second)
Hard: 8 frames (2/15 second)
Extreme: 4 frames (1/15 second)
I think skill issue depends on the person with frontiers. Like frontiers is the first sonic game ive really engaged with because its an open world game, so the combat was easy but the towers were the hardest part for me, whereas a lot of sonic fans are better at the platforming
Skill issue would tie to me because I bumped the difficulty to Easy for the rail tower and the boss trial
I don't have good reaction times for one frame parry and the Titans aren't telegraphed the best, which is really just a problem with them taking up the entire screen with their size
But over all, I'm just bad at it, and I'm ok with that because I had fun which should be the main goal here
@@lastpringle8904the Titans fights was just pure oversight on their part. These fights were not designed with the perfect parry in mind. It's why the parry windows suck dick because the attacks were designed for it. You can tell because Supreme phase 2 actually has attacks that you can perfect parry pretty easily. Or at least functioning properly
Where did you get your name? What does Matthasnocuts mean?
The world may never know.
@@Matthasnocuts you are my favourite Sonic tuber, and you just replied
Update 3 is a mixed bag, and I'm completely okay with it! If Sonic Team manages to tweak things here and there along with the base foundation of frontiers, I honestly think that it can make for a very solid game! This is JUST an update to a game, but even so, it should be open for criticism. Kishimoto said himself that he likes all of the feedback he can get, so that he can improve on it in the next game. I also want to add that I do like the weird and experimental things they did for the tower platforming and cyberspace, I personally saw it as the team having fun, but I can also see the arguement of it looking haphazardly placed at times.
I did like update 3 but the Cyberspace is so hard along with the King Koco trial that i gave up on the game I hope Superstars doesn't get too difficult to play
Loved the update and for sure I agree they need to balance some stuff although the tower stuff I disagree only a bit,I love the way it was designed cause it was challenging(albeit bs at times 🤣) but i guess that was intentional(hell even the last trial was annoying but my kingdom hearts brain helped get through it) but that’s a discussion for another time,great video btw 🙏🏻😎 and stay blessed and safe
Here is my take on the whole "skill issue" topic, apologies if this is long af but I wanna share my stance on it.
A lot of people say you can't just say skill issue and not have context or all that and is not really the issue and is a non factor, but in all honesty there really IS a point and a factor to it, maybe not fully but to an extent skill issue is a fair point to make. One of the whole issues people had with the base game was it was too easy and having an infinite parry nullifies all and any challenge. But now that, talking about specifically the master king trial, having to time your parry for attacks makes it more harder and challenging which is a GOOD thing.
Before all you had to do was hold parry for anything and you were invincible but now that you have to actually parry you gotta learn the timing of the attacks and counter at the right time. Everyone's favorite part of the game was fighting the titans anyway wasnt it? So youd assume people would replay them a lot so they should at least have a decent understanding on how the fights play out.
Wyvern is the best example, everyone clowned on him by saying and showing you literally hold parry the whole fight and its piss easy, but now they made that not possible and you actually have to learn the attacks and parry at the right time. It's like any other game that has a parry, let alone a perfect parry. You are suppose to learn the attacks and counter at the last second, these fights are no different. People that are calling this update, or just this trial alone, bad because they don't wanna take the time to try and get good and master the mechanics. They rather play with baby brain and hold parry.
The biggest complaint was everyone saying the game should have had timed parries but now they gave it they are now saying it's too hard or the game wasn't designed with it in mind, which is a dumb excuse. It's the same thing people said about the spindash and momentum. People were mad there was no momentum or a spin dash to take advantage of but when they were added people were saying it's too op and the game wasnt designed with it in mind. Like which is it? Do you want challenge and or freedom of movement or not?
I do get SOME of the challenges and bosses are ridiculous and hard to an unfair degree almost but not everything is, hell even the new towers. They had no 2D and little to no automation so you have to actually do careful platforming and take advantage of the tools you have to scale them. If it's too hard you have to just keep trying and get better, literally being a skill issue, you're not good at it yet so keep practicing and master it. It's no different to any other game that requires skill and trial and error. The more you replay and try and learn the better you'll be.
Overall, simply saying skill issue isnt really a one off thing and actually CAN amount to something and be a valid point to an extent. You can't just write it off when there is SOME weight and truth to the statement. If you happen to read all this I wanna know what you think about this take. I see many people say skill issue isn't the truth when in a way it really is.
That only works if attacks actually have a clear parry-window. Having a timed parry reveals that Wyvern is absolutely scuffed, if you time it to the visuals you are going to get hit because the timings do not line up.
Yeah, I mean it has “hard” doings, and how they made a few “glitches”.
Tails didn’t need the homing attack in the other games because the levels were designed around that fact
Theirs also a level where you have to get to the goal before Tails and one where you have to find three flickes and the goal and theirs one with a bunch of vehicles everywhere and theirs two goals instead of one
15:28 THANK. YOU. When people complained about how easy the puzzles were, my counter point is that sonic isn’t for taking a long time to solve real headscratchers. The point of the map puzzles is to get in, make you think just a little bit to change things up, and then move on to the next thing while keeping the moment to moment momentum
I hated the initial hated the difficulty spike because I wasn't expecting it. Also I had just finished platting all he resident evil games so I was wanting a break from challenges. I took a few days break after accepting it was going to be a nightmare to do and then loved it through that lense
Broke my screen hitting the sub button as hard as I can😭
THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT MAN!
On the “skill issue” front, its not nearly as cookie cutter as so many make it out to be. On some level, there is a skill issue kinda? Like a lot of people we’re having trouble at trial 5 bc they kept at hard mode for some weird need to prove themselves. Calling the challenge bad based off that ALONE seems kinda petty. And the platforming challenges were pretty fair also. BUTTT the challenge is n’t greatly designed at some points.
13:05
Normally I would agree but, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I’ve took breaks for months and still was frustrated that I waited more months to just beat it.
Dude the playable characters is the best love the new attacks knuckles has love the ability to fly tails plane endlessly and amy she’s pretty cool to play as
Just got the CD soundtrack for this games 3rd update The Final Horizon the mail today at 2:34p.m. and it's the Sonic Frontiers Expansion Soundtrack: Paths Revisited CD and I'm listening to it while watching this! 6:07p.m. 12/19/2023
While I don't personally agree with most of the opinions you had, with knuckles being my favorite to play, people need to understand that the end of the day these are all just opinions and if somebody does or doesn't enjoy the game you don't have to attack them for it, because you have your own opinion.
The one thing I didn't like about Update 3 is how pathetic the characters are against enemies and the parry in the 5th trial. But I did really like the unfair challenge of the update because I understood that I was playing it on hard. If you're having trouble then just switch to easy or normal mode. But when I pick hard mode in a game I want the game to split my cheeks open and dump nitrogen down my track which this update did pretty well. Except the 5th trial. The parry was actually bullshit against the bosses that weren't designed for it.
Also, seeing trial 2 be done with the parry feels right. The cyloop technique that I used was really scuffed given I had to use the stomp each time I was knocked back and then quickly cyloop around it to have a window of attack. Attacking and then parrying when the hat saw spun back around felt like it was meant to be used that way.
The climb to the trial towers was also pretty janky and stressful but it's just a small part of the update so I don't have a big enough opinion on it.
MINOR SPOILERS:
The trial towers were pretty much preparing you for the final boss with the small parry window, the faster attack patterns, the parrying without looking, and taking advantage with the cyloop.
Over all, skill issue. Everyone knows you need a license in Dark Souls in order to play Update 3.
Update 3 also added Denuvo and now it runs like a slideshow
Interesting video! Honestly I feel like the difficulty being fair or not is subjective since one could just be an expert at games and really enjoy everything that gets thrown at him lol. But that’s just me, I personally really enjoyed it (except Wyern)
12:26 That's a weird point, because honestly Amy, Knuckles and Tails actually could Homing Attack. Via Sonic Heroes, Knuckles and Tails did it when Sonic's in speed formation, and Amy was the Speed formation leader of her team.
Only weird part is Tails not having it, but between flying and the Cyclone he still has options.
So in regards to the trials being unfair thats a null and void argument cause people were saying frontiers was too easy prior to update 3 and sega took that to heart and made the game challenging.
Although i, personally, disagree with you with most of the stuff you said, i personally loved the challenge and it even felt a bit easy most of the time for me, i can at least respect this because you are among one of the few Sonic fans taking this stance on update 3 and not acting like you're speaking objectively and that you are 100% right. I can respect this because you make it clear that it is your opinion and that you aren't trying to force everyone to agree with you, like most Sonic fans are, if that makes any sense. My respect to you man.
Cyberspace is amazing wdym the anti gravity is new and fun it makes you use just momentum and you switching from pathway to pathway while not finishing the first one is your fault it really easy to get to the ending and overall cyberspace has multiple pathways and it was great I don’t know where you are coming through 🤷🏻♂️
Honestly at times I wasn’t sure what parts Kishimoto wanted to add in to make the game better, and what parts he wanted to add in order to spite us 😂
If this is all just to "spite us", then I hope we continue to piss him off. Because this was a ton of fun. Most fun I've had with a sonic game since Sonic 3 & Knuckles
@@dn22pkkdd476With all the whining and bellyaching people are doing about the content they've been demanding be in Sonic games for years, I'm very sure they'll keep pissing them off lol.