Killmonger: Marvel's Most Sympathetic Villain
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- Опубликовано: 27 окт 2022
- Connor and Harry discuss the politics of one of the worst films ever made, Marvel's Black Panther (2018).
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He also ended the clip by saying being buried at sea to emphasize the Atlantic Slave Trade. Yet he says sod off to the Africans who died crossing the Saharan Desert by Arab nations. The Middle East started the African slave trade, more Africans died crossing the Sahara desert, and unlike Americans and British who stopped the trade after 300 years, the Middle East kept it going for 1,300 years.
But they were smart enough not to procreate with those and castrate men just in case, saving them trouble of bullshit later :)
And only stopped when the white devil forced them to
True. This is about building a narrative and making sure to change the history to easily control people.
In the 1800s the British sent the West African Squadron of Royal Navy warships to sail around Africa and start arresting slave ships and freeing the slaves. The US Navy sent the Africa Squadron, which was their own warships, to help them. I was never taught this in History class. I had to look it up.
Who sold the slaves, Eric?
I like how the entire point of Killmonger was "Hey guys, maybe fighting for causes like racial supremacy, no matter what your social standing your race is in, is a bad idea" and it just went over so many heads. T'challa basically said "fuck BLM" and people didn't even realise it.
That's what I got from it, but I doubt the writers intended that given what came after.
Just goes to show people don't look beyond surface level thinking.
lololol what? the openining scene in black panther is black panther rescuing ppl from slavery that other black ppl caught....BP says isolationism good, while realizing that nations surrounding wakanda, are suffering from war/crime/poverty/slavery/famine etc, ignores them building a rec center in compton...
Yeah, that's what woke people took from it, they agree with Killmonger and people were celebrating him.
@@117Ender
He's not ignoring them, he's respecting their sovereignty. T'Challa was more than happy to raise hell if slavers wandered into Wakanda's borders, but operating outside of them would not only have been a glorified military attack, but also have made T'Challa a massive hypocrite due to his stance on border security. The rec center thing was meant to indicate he's moved away from isolationism. Besides, any smart leader knows that social progress is slow, so trying to force it will inevitably lead to its rejection by those who benefit from or simply prefer the status quo.
Killmonger: “bury me in the ocean; my ancestors jumped from the ships because they knew death was better then bondage”
*….If they jumped from the ships then they weren’t your ancestors*
Not to mention, if he's from Wakanda his ancestors where not on the boats.
'Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer' but in wakandian language
don't muddle the mind of the woke with logic and facts, both are racist anyway.
@@Guciom his mother's side ancestors then, still dumb but his mom is from wherever that flashback was.
@@donovandelozier7156 Even then, the people drowning meant no descendants so still his speech is BS.
The line where he says " my ancestors knew death was better then bondage" was so stupid. His ancestors would have been Wakandans. So they conquered 4 other nations. And he completely ignores the blacks that's enslaved their neighbors. Lol worst villain ever
BP starts with tchalla rescuring ppl, who no one clarifies if they are slaves, being trafficked or etc, cause his girlfriend asks him too, so near wakanda, theres war/slavery happening and wakanda says we hear you, lets build a rec center in compton...
Well he might've been referring to Ancestors on his Mother's side who was American, but then that just falls into the fact people ignore how Africans enslaved other Africans and it was actually the British and French who ended the Atlantic Slave trade.
It also ignores the fact his ancestors clearly chose life in bondage over death.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 That's the part I've always found so funny about that line. His ancestors obviously didn't jump overboard.
Here's the thing about that statement. It is better to die fighting than be enslaved is a statement I agree with. However, if you are clearly beaten, it is better to live to fight another day than be suicidal. Nothing about it is even heroic, it's just basic logic.
What I find most suspicious about sympathy for Killmonger is they seem to forget that how casually he kills his team, including his own girlfriend. Having a bad ideology can lead you down a dark path, but violently betraying the people who love and trust you is a whole other level of evil, one beyond forgiveness. I suspect that Killmonger fans don't see that disposing of your allies when they're of no further use to you is one of the most evil things you can do because the Woke destroy the people they once called comrade as a hobby.
The people who find him sympathetic have the same problem most wana be commies have...
They think they wil be the people doing the betraying, and are 100% fine with that.
They are not loyal, they are not brave and they have no respect for anyone.
Yet they demand and asume loyalty, bravery and respect from everyone...
Not only that, he also beats the woman who is caring for the Black Panther plants for daring to defy him. Granted, it's in character for a villain, but not something to aspire to. :/
In the surveys of American Liberals, they’ve found that they don’t value or in some cases even comprehend the idea of loyalty. Add to that the amorality that comes from any mass collective identity with an us-and-them dichotomy (communist, Blackness, etc) and it’s easy to predict what you’re describing
It's because they can relate.
The Woke and Leftists in general prey upon each other if it benefits their status in the Hierarchy, which they allegedly despise
The whole Black Panther movie is exaggerated stereotypes of black culture, warriors throwing spears at their enemies, a tribe of mountain people that grunt like gorillas, and rap music playing in all the cut scenes. It's either a genius troll, or the most self unaware movie ever made.
Either?
Why not both?
I still can't believe the scene of a bunch of tribal Africans hooting like apes at a white man somehow managed to get put to film. That was just too damn funny.
They don't understand what advanced civilisation means. They just slap incredibly primitive stuff with sci-fi stuff like force field cloaks, laser spears, skyskrapers with huts implemented in them...The only way something like this can happen is if Wakandans have no idea how to make something high-tech or how to use it, they just bought a microscope and use it as a hammer because that's the only thing they know. Says something about the writer...
The director and lead star are both well off English born guys who, according to the special features, went on a two week sightseeing tour in Africa and then consulted an Afro-futurist artist.
They claimed to think they were offering a way forward for both Africa and the inner city dingbats they were trying to appeal to.
How depressing is that?
I'm black and I always liked Killmonger as a villain, but I hated that they made him a black nationalist. Not only that, but he's actually representative the kind of blacks I don't associate with. The real people who did him wrong were his own people, who are all black. Yet, for some stupid reason he's blaming white people. It's the same with most blacks in America. If they all sat down and just asked themselves "who has personally caused me the most pain and suffering in this world" about 99% of them would have another specific black person come to mind. By the way, if you're black and you talk about any of this they'll hate you speaking the truth so much they will want you deleted.
If you all went back to Africa we could be happy
Indeed. Look at all the other minorities in America. Success. Far beyond white Americans. Look at the UK, Indian Brits, East Asian Brits, all far more successful than whites.
Honestly when I left theatres I told people kill monger was literally a black hitler and I got absolutely DUMPED on online. People were *surprised* someone would think he was a racist maniac?!
I love the fact they made the character a black nationalist. But I guess the world never has a problem whenever white people stand up.
@@blackismyfavoritecolor869 I never said that. You're gaslighting me. You're being disingenuous. Piss off
The Killmonger of the comics was totally different - he had no racialist chip on his soldier; if anything there was old tribal grudges against the Panther tribe and an Alexander the Great ambition to conquer. His was methodical and not given to letting his anger ruin his plans. T'Challa lost in combat to him twice and had to be saved by the intervention of a kid whose village was massacred by Killmonger's mercenary forces.
In later appearances in Christopher Priest's run, he gained more of a personality, a sense of humor and defeats T'Challa for the third time and temporarily takes over Wakanda through (mostly) nonviolent economic gamesmanship and assumes the Black Panther mantle until he's poisoned (he cockily takes the Panther herbs that can only be tolerated by genetic relatives of the royal family) and is once again the victim of his own hubris.
Kevin Feige and Ryan Coogler are Marvel comic noobs.. Most characters in that movie are weak/completely different iterations from their comic counterparts. Shuri is supposed to be a no nonsense die hard warrior who would do anything for the sake of Wakanda. Look at her in that lame movie, wtf?! Now she's a "funny" tech genius and not only that. She's smarter than T'Challa 😕
@@ItachiUchiha-ut6xj you don’t understand, She is a Woman, and Women are Amazing! Wayyyy better than those gross icky men! Those whiners and lazy bastards who built every building, paved every road, built every damn thing this world runs on, yeah. Fuck those guys. R-…right?
that killmonger would've actually been really cool to see on the screen. if they used one of the comic versions of everything for the movies, they'd be so much better.
except for iron man and captain america, those two are great already. and thor is good as well.
I've heard from native Africans that they find Americans blacks super annoying when it comes to their idea of a collective "blackness." With that in mind, the American black character being the villain in Africa sounds very apt.
Same. I’ve noticed that actual Africans tend to look down on black Americans, even more so than any white Americans do.
I agree with you but there is a reason why there is a difference between how Black Africans from the disposa (America, Europe etc) have a more collective view of blackness because as a minority we are more likely to face consequences for our blackness then Africans who live in Africa where they are the majority. Africans may find it annoying but they need to understand that the world's perception of Black people affects them too whether they find it annoying or not. If Africans had a collective or nationalist view of themselves then they would not sold people who looked like them (Africans selling other Africans) into slavery to the Europeans or Arabs.
@@X23Ninja No they don't, because the "world's perception of Black people" comes mostly from Black Americans. Most sane individuals don't give the slightest fuck about what skin color do they have and what skin color others have.
Racists definitely exist, I actually know 3 of them, and they are generally hated by everyone.
@@X23Ninja But there is a lot of enthnical destructive hypocrisy in that collective blackness identity within that U.S. citizen subculture, which doesn't include Canadians/Mexicans, Hondurans/Indians/South americans/etc. who are "black" so can't really use "American" for all three continents using that name. The very nature of that collective identity is taught through generations, and is very argumentative towards other blacks who have a national identity rather than accepting the collective blackness hypocrisy. They get told "You don't know what you're talking about" too by this very same collective blackness. Perhaps the mindset of other cultures and fellow "blacks" would be more accepting in a positive light, if the "black identity" supported constructiveness within society at large rather than support the destructive nature? It's the destructive nature within the culture that gets the most light, the most support, giving everyone else the assumption that we are all as destructive as what's shown in the media. The rhetorical question then becomes, "What beauty is there within this collective black identity that can be, and should be shared with society at large without putting so much attention on the negative behavior within it?" It may not be as sensational to show in the media as it doesn't attract the ratings for networks.
@@X23Ninja unnecesary complicated.
They are just different, culturally and genetically, that is enough for war.
Put 100 afr.americans vs 100 pure africans, and u will notice the same difference betwen "hispanics" and whites.
The only reason Erik got as far as he did is because the film decided T'Challa was too incompetent to stop him.
Yeah, Civil War T'Challa wouldn't have tolerated that shit for a second.
One thing people miss about this film was that T'Challa was not stopping Killmonger from using Wakandan technology to commit a genocide because he disagreed with his ideology or plan. He stopped Killmonger as the Avengers exist and Wakanda would have been destroyed by them if Killmonger tried to kill all the white people. It was for selfish reasons only. Also the Avengers would have stopped Killmonger in about 5 minutes anyway so it just shows he was mentally ill.
Got a lot of hate in media class for calling black panther the most overrated film of all time
that just goes to show you who the idiots in that class were.
NPCs are weak in mind and body, but they do have the numbers
_"He's black Hitler."_
That's what makes him so sympathetic and relatable.
How is HITLER of all people relatable?
@@timenspace2094 sarcasm
@@timenspace2094 Everyone's felt that struggle a few times in their lives.
Sympathetic villains are usually terrible because most writers don't actually understand morality and think it is just "being nice."
LoL arcane has a sympathetic villain, he's still a villain and you know it.
But god's damn you feel bad for him and wish he had better
Very true.
@@ragnarian Arcane has two, in fact, if you count Jinx as a dangerous antagonistic force, which she is. Yet the series do make her responsible of her actions. She commits terrorism, including the awful tactic of awaiting the arrival of emergency services to kill them, and the series do not forget about that. It keeps bringing that in, to the very last chapter there are characters demanding prison for her as necessary punishment, despise being Jinx a sympathetic character through the story.
It's worse than that - they essentially designate morality by one's role in the story. I.e. whatever the hero does is justified because they're the hero, and vice versa.
Sympathetic villains is one of the greatest thing you can aspire as a writer. The potential of making the spectator tap into the dark side and blink, or feel pity for the monster, to create morally compromising situation, were you know what has to be done, but it is not that easy as if we were dealing with something just evil.
The problem is, lots of modern writers are just inmoral, so they hardly can relate with actually moral characters, so they either bend those characters to reflect their bias, their ressentment, their lack of any balance in life, or they make the villain more than they should, normally failing to do what is necessary to actually make them relatable. That it is, basically, do not run away from responsability in the story, explicitly or not, dont do it. So we have sad spectacles like the hero "relating" to the villain to a point where it is just absurd, because "we are supposed to feel pity for them". Just compare Zemo motivations in Civil War, and how he carries himself, and how T'Challa reacts to him, including stopping him from killing himself, with the moronic evil Killmonger, and his actions.
I love the throw away expositional line saying Killmonger went to MIT and West Point.
its to please the crowd that got robbed by the american education system
If he got the chance to get into MIT, that means his life and opression weren't so bad, huh?
@@user-xx6vy9ri8p SSSSHHHHHH.
Yep. It’s almost as if hard work, a drive to succeed, and strong focus on education can allow those born into poorer generational wealth to rise up,
How novel.
Mauler did a fantastic review of this film when it came out. He was equally unimpressed with the villain, saying at one point that 'Not falling asleep had become the more relatable antagonist'.
That recommendation aside, I think there are always issues when people try to project modern-day politics onto fantasy/sci-fi films, with no regard to the plot or setting. In this case, Killmounger bitches endlessly about colonialism and slavery. However, this means that Wakanda - despite being the most technologically-advanced nation on earth at the time - was perfectly happy to sit back and allow other African nations to genocide one another and to enslave one another. It was fine with other countries colonising them. So, if anything, shouldn't Killmounger be more angry at Wakanda for sitting back and doing nothing the entire time? Shouldn't he be pissed that most Africans are still poor, hungry and lacking modern medicine, whilst Wakanda sits on a literal mountain of wealth, power and resources?
But no, it's more important to go to America and kill whitey because . . . black neighbourhoods are poor, I guess?
Not only that, but Wakanda also pretends to be a poor nation. Playing Poorface, you might say.
Yeah, and even that idea of imperialism could be confronted by the "You want to turn us into the thing you want to destroy"...
But that of course could leaad to the UNDERSTANDABLE inner confrontation of African tribes...
But no, this film was made by the USA and they believe ALL black people were victims.
T'Challa kinda represents this point, but they try to make Killmonger based that making a real critique.
@@dragonknightleader1 I mean, Killmonger could have gone on a rant about how Wakanda decided to do nothing while the vast majority of other african countries were being colonized and having their people, many of whom already enslaved and sold to and from slave masters from the Arab world, sold to whites who saw blacks not as people, but as objects to be used for profit. And many times, the black slave masters who enslaved blacks profited from whites making the slave trade situation worse than it already was.
I find it funny the villain follows the dumb laws of Wakanda and becomes its rightful ruler but then the ‘hero’ pulls a coup. Begins a ‘bloody’ civil war for the throne with the help of the CIA and takes back over. But he’s still the hero. XD
That never crossed my mind, but you're not wrong.
Maybe ignoring the law to do what they consider to be good, is the lesson here.
Freedom of Speech? It allows people to listen/read things that hurt their fee fees, we should step over it
@Il Manticore Or maybe should have made a movie that wasn’t garbage.
Actually, the rules were the battle didn't end until one side had died or surrendered. T'Challa did neither so he wasn't breaking the rules when he showed up to continue the fight.
I think the story they were trying to pull off was too complex for a single movie to do it well. I’m not sure why Marvel decided villains that heroes fought for decades in the comics needed dispatched in a single 2 hour movie. Wakanda realizing that maybe running the most advanced civilization on Earth like it’s a nomadic tribe with a might means right based government isn’t the best path forward would be a good step. Or maybe a more Lion King esque situation where the people of Wakanda themselves realize that Killmonger will be the death of them all and thus they turn against him and it’s only after they turn that TChalla returns to help the people save Wakanda. Lots of ways to improve on the basic premise but trying to do too much in too little time is normal operating procedure for Hollywood.
Thank you! I am black and absolutely hate Killmonger! Such a terrible character. First off, it's one of Michael B Jordan's worst acting performances. Second he is extremely short sighted, naive and hypocritical.
I think that works to his advantage. It makes him a roast in the same vein as Rick from "The Young Ones". To those who sound and act like him, he's their posterboy. To everyone else, he's a yuppy prick. Rick was meant to be a lampoon of college socialists of the early 1980s who think they know everything but are just pathetic. Killmonger is a lampoon of the self-destructive BLM socialist who think they know everything, but are just violent.
His ancestors where Wakandans, and he cries about them like they suffered, Wakandans WERE the enslavers, and they probably enslaved MANY black people.
Thank you! I heard such great things, but it feels like this was Jordan rehearsing and he didn't expect it to make it to screen...
Third they just ripped off Victor Zsasz with his whole each scar is a kill counter shtick
Short sighted, naive and hypocritical? Seems just like a demographic here in the states. One that makes up about thirteen per cent. The vast majority would be just fine with a huuite genocide over here.
There’s literally a scene when Shuri has to help agent Ross, saying along the lines of “another white boy for me to fix up.” When watching this a second time at home, and not in the cinema, I literally cringed and said at the screen (edit:) “then fix him up, black girl”, because I knew there was a double standard. Both are instances of dehumanising racialising a person, but only the latter would be condemned while the former is celebrated.
And that scene comes after Agent Ross jumps in front of an explosion to protect T’Challa’s friend/love interest (?) and him trying to help them with Claw. 😡
I cringed the first time I watched it and it was one of the scenes that made me hate Shuri as a character.
I didn't see anything wrong with that, and I think they just threw in that line as a nod that Bucky was there as well. You also have to keep in mind that that there likely was only one white guy in that country prior to the film. When the race is minority in the area you're likely to use it as the first of the characteristics that you would be listing since its the most obvious one you would noticed. height, size/weight would be next, then hair, eyes and so on.
@@TheHulkbuster13 True, but then why not just refer to Bucky and Ross as Americans and not just as "white boys?" With all due respect, I don't agree with how you've rationalised and dismissed this racialised line, because I doubt anyone could use this reasoning in a scene in which a group of white characters dismiss/identify another other character as "another black boy."
At face value and from how you've described things, the line is not a big deal, but as pointed out in this video, Black Panther is filled with deliberate subtext and messaging relating to the real world politics and social cultural issues in regards to black people in America/blm.
How about the part where she calls him, "Colonizer"?
@@GanonGhidorah Exactly. Moments and lines like those show that Shuri and Killmonger are not actual characters, they’re just avatars for the writers who are inserting identity politics.
Killmonger:
"Listen, all of us people of people of the best race who've been victim of a world-class betrayal by the evil ethicity are gonna unite and go conquer a vital space in this world, killing everyone in our way opposing us".
Strangely reminiscent of something, can't remember what though...
4:42: what the movie leaves out from the comics, is that each subsequent Black Panther studies under all the greatest scholars and athletes Wakanda’s money can buy, and when it’s time for him to step up to become the Black Panther, before being given the Heart-Shaped Herb, he has to go through trial by combat against the 3 best warriors in Wakanda. It’s not supposed to be to decide who becomes king, it’s supposed to be to test whether the next king is physically ready to fight for his country.
But then you'd have Kilmonger as King. Shuri is already against tradition in Wakanda
@@suzygirl1843 ???
The trial by combat from the comics described by Omar here just tests the abilities of whoever was already elected as prospective king. It isn't the mechanism to elect the king as in the film.
I think their most sympathetic villain was Zemo. Dude lost his wife and kid and father. His whole country is rubble. His world was quite literally torn apart by some asshats having a grudge match in his country. Why? Because fuck Sokovia that's why!
Dude lost everything because Tomy frickin Stark couldn't check his ego at the door.
Now he wants revenge It's very sympathetic.
@@DivertingTales But it was due to Tony Stark's fear of being forced to watch Earth being taken over by a hostile space force, which in turn led him to create Ultron (the cinematic version, not the comic version) and that system then turned "bad" and attacked people (kind of a techno-Hulk threat, if you think about it). A kind of "even good intentions paves the way to hell" kind of deal.
Also, Zemo's storyline was essentially Iron Man 1 partial storyline. Once you realize that Marvel films and series are essentially recycling the same stories over and over (as seen in Wanda getting the same setup 3 times in a row for 3 separate appearances), you start to see a LOT of repetition in Marvel entertainment. :/
There's an even more relatable villain for a time at the end of the film, when Tony himself tries to kill Bucky. We already have all of the understanding of Tony's history and character, and we see him throw away his reason in the emotion of finding out that one of his closest friends and colleagues has been lying to him to protect the man who murdered his parents.
@@lapelcelery42 I never found Tony's motives there very believable. 1) Steve didn't actually know it was Bucky, he just suspected it. 2) Tony would have had all the same information Steve had, plus Jarvis making it easier for him to search Shield's/Hydra's files. 3) Tony knew Bucky had been brainwashed. 4) Tony had already been forgiven for the same thing in the previous movies. The movie had to strip away all of his intelligence and reason to make the fight work.
@@bethanyh1637 I do agree with some of that. 1) Whether Steve knew or not, he had just told Tony he did, and Tony knows what Steve's word means to him.
2) Steve had time alone with Bucky that Tony didn't.
3 and 4) I think these are both accurate, but I also think it's a bit of "your mileage may vary". You're right to say that Tony behaves unreasonably and emotionally, but as you also say, there is a lot of precedent for that in his character. He had just found out that Steve had protected the man who killed his parents, and he had just watched the footage of Bucky doing it. I think it's a matter for the individual to decide whether it's actually in keeping with his character to have that reaction, or not. And I say that as someone who had the same reaction as you when I first saw it. It's only more recently that I've changed my mind on it.
@@lapelcelery42 1) That's just it. Steve only told Tony he suspected it, not that he knew for sure. 2) Bucky memories were regularly wiped, but even if he did remember, the only time Steve and Bucky were together, they were on the run from Tony. When was he suppose to tell him?
7:32 "These two statements do not fit together"
I have my own problems with this film, but *they do fit together.* The guy doesn't want immigrants to his home, instead he wants to go out and be the imperial ruler of the rest of the world.
It's a very German 1940's way of thinking, if you catch my drift. Purity at home, domination everywhere else.
My favorite part was when he said children would have to die for his plan to succeed. So relatable, so deep.
Deep thoughts with the deep
I mean, you can do a classic angry and hyprocritical villain, but the worst thing about this is how many africanamericans from America said they completely agree with his views after watching the movie. And nooobody saw anything wrong about that!
Here in the west nowadays it has become so normal to be negative about white people that most people dont even notice it and they think your just being a weirdo talking nonsense if you mention it to them.
Same thing with men because everything about being a man and everything that makes men different from women is seen as a bad thing in the west nowadays but its so normalised that most people dont realise that its happening.
No one gets the "Cool motive, still murder" from me harder than Killmonger.
i mean, not really a cool motive though, dude was an idiot.
@@garbagelmao2730 yep yep. "oh, black people enslaved each other (and still do), and sold their families, neighbors and so on to white people a few hundred years ago! i'm gonna genocide everyone who's not black(which is more than just white people)."
decides to ignore that literally every racial group was enslaved at the time that white people started freeing slaves around the world, and get pissy when all the bad things that happen to him (that we know of, which is what matters) are caused by other black people.
Killmonger's "scars" is cultural appropriation from many African tribes who do ritual scars as milestones for an adolescent's entry into society (puberty, marriage, etc). But he uses them to mark his kills.
Honestly, Killmonger needed a bigger arc in Black Panther to work. His backstory is all about subverting and overthrowing governments, but all he does is show up and do the ritual challenge thing. We needed scenes where he interacts with the people of Wakanda, highlights underlying dissatisfaction that people might have with T'Challa, and he only challenges his cousin for the throne when people call for him to do so. What we got was way too simplistic because it's unbelievable that all of Wakanda accepts Killmonger's rule except for T'Challa's mother, sister, gf, and bodyguards.
But thinking through a character arc is too much to expect from a Comic Book movie so they went with speedrun tactics.
That's why he shouldn't have died. Yet Disney being dumbasses when it comes to villains, killing them off means you HAVE to find a new one and most of them are from Spider-Man.
@@ExeErdna The worst part of the MCU is that ALL of Marvel's greatest villains belong to properties and IPs they sold the movie rights to. X-Men, FF, Spider-Man. Spider-Man alone is like half of Marvel's quality villains. That's just how good he is.
To be fair, a lot of what you see in Wakanda are appropriated from different African cultures. Killmonger's not unique in that regard.
@@samiamtheman7379 In a way, that makes Killmonger even worse. Because with Wakanda you have a nation that is a Tribal confederation of at least 6 distinct cultures that are unique from each other. Killmonger did not grow up in Wakanda, having to piece together whatever he could from what little his father taught him and what he could learn from the world. But from what we see of the other Wakanda tribes, ritual scars are not something we see in any of the other tribes - so he's not even doing something that fits with his claimed cultural heritage.
I can't stand Black Panther 2018, but mainly because there's SO MUCH wasted potential. That, and the inconsistencies in the film we actually got.
When Killmonger yelled "We will make the Kingdom of Dahomey Great Again!" I cried.
I cried when he yelled “Its mongering time!” And mongered all over them
My favourite interpretation of the Black Panther is from the animated Earth's Mightiest Heroes where he actually demonstrates a calm intelligence, nobility, pragmatism and even humour while balancing saving the world and prioritizing his people.
The next best would be in Captain America: Civil War. He's way cooler there than in his own movie.
Killmonger is highly trained and has a successful career and still thinks he is oppressed. Thru hard work he literally achieved the American dream he was claiming he was denied.
"He's such a complex And three dimensional villian! You could make the argument that he's actually the hero of the movie!"
Wtf movie did they watch? His entire character can be summed up by "I had a shit childhood and because of that the entire world deserves to burn."
Killmonger was just a psychopath with daddy issues.
I think the real marvel villain you feel sympathetic for is Michael Keaton's character in the spiderman movie. His situation felt like anyone could relate to that. If you were a blue collar working man who started his own business. Then one day the government steps in and takes away his livelihood. So he starts breaking the law so he can continue to support his family. That makes me ask "If that happened to me wouldn't I do the same?
Ah yes, discount racist magneto.
i mean isn't magneto already racist, well racist against all non-mutants but still counts
Well, Magneto is a ‘depending on writer’ kind of deal.
Sometimes he is basically mutant Hitler (ironic considering he’s a Holocaust survivor). Other times, he’s more nuanced and wants mutants and humans to live separately (Genosia) since he sees conflict as inevitable,
So, in a sense racist, but the better written Magnetos have those important details. In the recent stories, he’s not even a villain anymore, but an X-man
I still think Ultron was the most sympathetic Marvel villain. I mean, what’s more understandable than spending 11 seconds surfing the internet and then deciding humanity needs to be wiped out?
Robert Jordan wrote wheel of time.
I couldn't slog through all of those.
I read a bunch of them, years ago, but ended up dropping the series because I got too frustrated with the characters.
I've watched Black Panther once. On the other side I've lost count of how many times I've watched Batman and Robin over the years. I think that says it all.
They have oversaturated the market with Michael B Jordan, very one dimensional and boring actor.
This is a very American film in the sense that it views blackness as one big thing and all black people as one big homogenous group. It isn’t. Nigeria alone has more than 1000 different spoken languages, and the continent can fit all of North America, all of China, and most of Europe into its landmass. It’s probably one of the most ethnically diverse places on the planet, If not ethnically than at the very least culturally. And sure enough a good chunk of them do not get along whatsoever. One of my favorite things is watching Woke African Americans who won’t shut up about slavery come into contact with an actual African, immigrant or otherwise, expecting some sort of camaraderie for a long lost brother or something like that, only to get spit in their eye and told off. Something usually along the lines of “why aren’t you happy to live in America? You are filthy rich, stop whining and making the rest of us look bad”. There is no such thing as African-American to an actual African. Just Americans who happen to be black. That’s why when killmonger says…pretty much anything, it’s pretty much eye rollingly stupid and naive. Like being buried at sea with his “brothers” as if he knew them personally or something. Bitch, they would give zero shits about making such a pointless gesture. Mostly because they are dead but also because they were a random smattering of people from different areas Who probably spoke several different languages and who had no connections to one another to begin with. I could go on but I won’t. It’s just another hilarious example of the anti-racists unironically creating something deeply racist against the people they are trying to “help”.
0:50 I mildly disagree, he didn't play him one-dimensionally. He played him black and white. Almost like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. 90% of the time he would be black Hitler, and then show random softness. No in between. And those two sides are lightyears apart where they might be two different characters. Ulysses Klaw was the much more entertaining villain.
Quite so. Due to Age of Ultron, we already knew Klaw and his connection to Wakanda (one of the few to have stolen Vibranium out of the country).
With the reveal that certain sound frequencies can deposed Vibranium, and Klaw’s *sonic* gun arm, I think it’d have been pretty cool if he had been devising ways to enter Wakanda again with specific anti-Vibranium weaponry, thus making all the traditional ways valid as well.
But, no, he gets killed off anticlimactically…
@@narutardkyuubi yep, he had a pre-established history with the country, he had already been setup, there's even the whole "white colonizer plundering an African nation" aspect that would've comfortably fit their politics to begin with. Without even the need to explicitly state it. It would have even avoided the main villain being the evil version of the protagonist. And had he survived the movie, you would have even avoided a "villain of the week" situation. They could have killed so many MCU birds with one stone. But I suppose they just wanted the black Hitler power fantasy too badly.
I love how Connor compares the CGI to not just a Ratchet & Clank game, but SPECIFICALLY Ratchet and Clank 3 for some reason. The unneeded specificity made me laugh.
I loved it too, made a comment about it
Funny thing is, he may be aware, that 3 was the most rushed in development, and the devs thought it is gonna be a shit game, and many visual compositions were superior in the previous iterations
It makes sense that Connor would reference the graphics in R&C 3. From I heard, they had to crunch development before release in less than a year, so it makes sense the graphics were a bit compromised in quality.
Yeah i found black panther to be a race fantasy
How many people sympathise with killmonger because Michael is attractive?
Sorry boys, never saw it, never will. I just couldn't care less about comic book movies. I despise them at this point.😕
But he's black! Therefore, he is good no matter what he does!
He's sympathetic because his emotions are very relatable to a lot of people. Ignoring our opinions of black oppression in real life, the movie shows Killmonger being abandoned by family, by parents (even if its being ripped apart by death), and by society (again, this is what the movie is saying, not our actual reality). It's very understandable he'd be angry and want what's essentially revenge + power grab, which a lot of people on a certain side of the political spectrum also desire.
Where Killmonger fans' understandings fail though is that a sympathetic villain is still a villain, and him being the villain in this case means that he is wrong. (Seems obvious, but most people seem to forget this...? See newest spat of Disney live action remakes.) He is an extremist. It doesn't matter if he had a relatable, sympathetic background, he's still a fanatical, ruthless murderer in present day. The road to hell is paved with good intentions (in his case, good intentions to him = power grab leading to better life for "his people") and all that. People don't seem to be able to separate contributing factors leading up to a crime and the crime itself. This is like saying that being a thief is OK because they're poor. It's not. We can understand poverty and how it's not a great situation to be in, but the thief stole and that's not OK.
I don't actually have a problem with T'challa empathizing with him in the end because I saw it as him understanding where the issue comes from and wanting to stem the problem. His own country is extreme in many ways, and they can move to become more moderate. We can meet in the middle.
This entire movie seems to suffer from having audiences interpreting the story through some sort of inverted lens where villains are heroes due to the current political atmosphere. I don't think the movie is written poorly (by Marvel movie standards); it makes it very clear that Killmonger is the villain. Thus by the framing of the movie, we are told that Killmonger is not to be emulated, idolized or romanticized because what they're doing is wrong. However, whether it's the political atmosphere, personal bias, or just a general deficiency in critical reading skills, the audience seemed to have utterly failed to take in the message.
There may be some sympathetic aspects to his backstory, but he definitely reaches the point of being irredeemable when he murders his teammate and his girlfriend. That vicious of a betrayal crosses a line that utilitarianism can't mitigate. Before that moment I could accept a view of him being misguided, but casually disposing of the people who love and trust you is so abhorrent that sympathy is no longer deserved. Much like how Serial Killers often have tragic backstories, you can understand how they became what they are but what they do is unforgivable and they no longer deserve sympathy.
@@calexander7495 Yeah, exactly. Thanos want to snap out half life in the universe and yet he doesnt look as unghined as Killmomger, if only because he does have one person he likes and seems to understand what killing people actually means, even if he has rationalized the deal. So when the movie ask me to feel for Thanos, i can, while with Killmonger is more like "he is a moron. He deserves that".
@@albertocruzado2899 Yeah, Thanos is of course evil for what he wants to do, but unlike Killmonger he has a sense of honor. There's a huge difference when Thanos kills Gomorrah, he knows it's wrong, he struggles and he feels the weight of his actions. He kills her anyways, but despite how many people he's murdered before her he still struggles to kill her. He's a great example of someone committed to a flawed ideology, he thinks his evil is justified in pursuit of a greater good but still knows when he's doing something evil and it weighs on him.
Killmonger kills his girlfriend like it's nothing. There's no reflection or remorse, and killing her wasn't even necessary to complete his goals, she'd just become a temporary inconvenience. That's the main reason I would consider Killmonger more evil than Thanos, how easily he disposes of those closest to him.
To be fair to the movie, Killmonger was always established as the villain and as being in the wrong
The hype and praise around Black Panther was hilarious. It is literally one of the weakest MCU movies. Paper thin plot, poor characters, boring fight scenes. The only saving grace was the production design.
It's a shame, because Black Panther in the comics was a very unique and compelling superhero. There's a great "Holy shit" moment where he admits to Captain America and the rest of the Avengers that the only reason he joined them was to ascertain if they were a threat to Wakanda or not.
Also If you want to see something really spicy search what Chinese people thought of Black Panther, it`s gold.
There was a deleted scene where it explains that Daniel Kaluuya's character turned against T'challa because he was upset about him handing Klau over to the CIA. He saw this as a weak move and worries that this will lead to further acquiescence to foreign powers, ultimately leading him to throwing his lot in with Killmonger. Really not sure why they cut out this scene because his character arc makes no sense without it.
I think Killmonger was great, and the movie was surprisingly smart enough to make it clear that, while his anger was justified, his actions were still evil and needed to be stopped.
Problem is that a lot of people apparently need to be reminded that he was still the villian.
@@thecheapnormie5 A very Hegelian view of things, now that I think about it.
Kilmonger was abandoned by his wakandan relatives and abused (only way for a kid to get that angry) by his black american neighborhood
"whity" got him out of the ghetto via military service and Klaw provided a plan for a big (illegal) payday
Kilmoger had a tough life, but only because of people "who looked like him"
I watched the movie back then and I tought it was pretty good, but I did not watch it through the "race" lens, but now that I think about it again after you are pointing it out - you're 100% right.
Well he did grow up in a ethnostate. So his morals and ethics were skewed from day one.
"Huge body count but bloodless"
So, a wine aunt?
Black panther was so embarrassingly over hyped it was unbelievable
I think what weirded me out about the flowers is that there's an actual spiritual plane the leader travels to to speak with their Panther God yet when Killmonger says to burn all the flowers, despite clearly showing a religious side to Wakanda none of the priests/tenders have any problem whatsoever, they kinda just go "awww that sucks I liked these" and burn it all.
In the words of Kanye West
"I wish we didn't abort our children and shoot each other in the streets and then rap about it"🤣
What's crazy is my mom got this message as soon as she watched the movie she wasn't on black panther side she wanted there to be a race war she was 100% on killmonger side I didn't even know this all this I just thought they want the fight because fighting is what superheroes and villains do
Tell yo mammy she would lose that war...
Didn't Hitler literally say things about how the Germans were being mistreated on the world stage, and Germans in other countries where being discriminated against for being, and expressed that Germany should get involved and "help" the German abroad?
This was the first time I heard someone describe the same movie I saw.
What's real stupid is Wakabi joins Killmonger because T'Chala had Claw, then Killmonger stole Claw away only to kill Claw and bring his body to Wakabi.
It would have made more sense if Claw actually got away AND then Killmonger brought him in.
4:54 yeah this is a thing in the comics ,the king or queen of wakanda doesn't Need to be black panther and when they are them globe trotting and doing all that crap is looked upon negatively unless it's actively being done FOR wakanda. That is why my favorite character, in M'baku ,was introduced in the comics,because T'challa abandoned his duties for so long that the people of wakanda allowed M'baku to take over as he seemed and actually was capable of handling the situation.
The Virgin Killmonger vs The Chad Vulture. In my opinion out of every “one off” MCU villain Vulture is my favorite and is overall the best.
The awards and favorable reviews that Black Panther got was all pandering, which backfires in the long run.
Honestly, it's a shame that this is Chadwick Boseman's last film. He was a phenomenal actor and did films that were far better both technically and for black Americans. The biggest example is the movie 42 where he plays Jackie Robinson and he shows that resentment and anger won't lead to liberation, rather dignity and family will. But no, all these adult children progressives will only ever remember him for arguably his worst work because all they know is whatever Disney feeds them.
EZ PZ made great streams long ago on different BLKNAT cults each crazier than the last if you want to see the real-life Killmongers lol.
Didn't EZ PZ also say that Killmonger did nothing wrong?
Glad to see you’re back here again. Thank you
The problem is that I know a lot of black americans that feel the same way as killmonger. Its not that he is a 3 dimensional character, its just there are a heck of a LOT of gang members that feel the same way.
Personally for me, I thought he was a good villain because while I fairly certain the writers didn’t mean for him to come across this way, but I took him as an example of showing what can happen to people who have the “woe is me, it’s all the white mans fault” type of mindset.
I mean killmonger is a through and through black supremicist. All he wants is a race war and the white man killed. But all throughout the film, tchalla and the rest of the wakandans view him for what he is; an evil man who only has hatred in his heart.
And the bit with his childhood where he was growing up in the 90s race riots in LA if I remember correctly, without a father and a mother as well is I remember correctly again, works for me because it shows where these types of mindsets can come from. Where something bad does happen but you never move past it and all it does is chain you down in life.
At least that’s how I took it personally.
@whiskeywarlord
To be fair, those two interpretations are not mutually exclusive
Worrying, yes...13/62..not surprising.
Biblical reference?
???
damn... i remember when it was 50
@@Krafterr4 13% of the population, commits 62% of murders
@@t8kabr8km85 62% is the 2021 stat, and that's with New York refusing to report
His ancestors would have been the ones who DIDN’T jump from the ship anyway
The dumbest thing about that plot is that Wakanda is a tiny nation with technology barely higher than that of Shield or Hydra. In an actual war, they would be crushed by shear opposing numbers. They used their vibranium to make spears and rhino armor, ffs.
Thank you. This film was praised for being diverse. But if they just listen what they are saying, its brain damaging to sit through
I wouldn’t go that far but black panther is pretty bad but batman and robin almost killed the superhero genre
No, it's one of the worse thing Disney has put out.
Spider-man lost his uncle. Batman lost his parents. Killmonger lost his dad. Heroes need to be victims so that they have a personal stake in the fight. Spider-mand and Batman both set out on a quest for vengeance, to bring the murderers to justice. But along the way, they realise that vengeance just means they are hurting others and they instead fight to make sure what happened to them doesn't happen to anyone else.
Killmonger is a villian because he never learns that lesson. He only spout all that woe is me stuff to justify his killing. Heroes take responsibility for their actions. Killmonger does whatever he wants and its always someone else's fault.
I have never watched Black Panther and I'm African.
One of the problems I have with this movie is everything you're saying but the Black Panther has his powers because of their God the panther God gives that person who he finds Worthy those powers if it was just a flower that any damn buddy who finds that flower and decides to use it will have those powers
Isn't that the god who said Victor Von Doom was based?
@@kielbasamage honestly I don't know I was a big Spider-Man fan , X-Men , and Wolverine and I've read a few Black Panther comic books and the ones I read hit me pretty hard because I thought well they were pretty damn deep but I wasn't a collector of the Black Panther comic books although you bring up Doctor Doom he was pretty based he did manage to steal the power from the beyonder
@@kielbasamage Yes.
Doom went up to the final gate before getting the Vibranium and was stopped by the Panther God. The trial was to have your conviction to bebso pure that the God can't hurt him. Doom's conviction in his superiority and that he is only one that can save humanity is so strong the Panthee God just goes "Look, I don't like you. But damn do you make a good point. Go ahead bro, take the ore."
@@Mariusweeddeath and doom actually does what he says his biggest issue is his pride and spite when those things are gone he actually does good things like that comic where he succeding in mind controlling the entire world then got bored with no challenge anymore so passed a bunch of laws he wanted like mutant equality etc etc then let the heros free by "mistake" to stop him.
Me an M'baku guy : I wish they thought about my favorite that way
Why I like M'baku
- Doesn't wish for unnecessary conflict with others
- strong on maintaining traditions and appearance of strong leadership
- honors his enemies even in defeat
- doesn't take disrespect of his culture well
- maintains himself and his people physically to the point he's ready to fight enemies at a moment's noticr
Also, he's hilarious.
@@campbellsoup93 He trolls the hell outta Bilbo.
This is why I will defend Black Panther as not only the best thing the MCU ever put out, but actually good:
1: its plot is essentially "SJW tries to destabilize isolationist, protectionist, ancient nation-state for use as an arms factory for Helter-Skelter; gets stabbed by rightful warrior-king"
2: Killmonger shows that the most realistic supervillain is somebody with "central casting" Twitter/Tumblr politics who isn't a feckless midwit.
The spicy take is that Wakkanda is not an African American power fantasy. But a neocon power fantasy. Wakkanda is the new incarnation of the American Empire with woke justification and Bipoc cadres.
While being archaic to the point of being completely alien, the system in the comics at least makes sense: the black panther is the king of the dead and sees to the strategic defence of the realm, while the other part of the government (queen of the living, council etc depending on which retcon we’re living under) looks after the day to day of internal governance.
I forget who it was but I’ve read references to a ‘summer/winter king’ I.e. the war leader who takes over to lead wars during the campaign season. I think it’s based on that idea, though why an isolationist nation would do that is anyones guess.
What little contact I’ve had with BP outside the Infinity saga just has him be really boring or racist as hell, so I’m not sure the movie’s pants on head stupid version is any worse, when he’s not quoting the racist version…
Still the best thing was they brought all that Technology to US, ignoring their much more impoverished Continent, xD, over all for better African themed action movies I recommend Who Killed Captain Alex, I had more fun with that one.
So many people nowadays follow the word Malcolm X and W.E.B. DuBois rather than Martin Luther King Jr. and Booker T. Washington when it comes to handling racial prejudice.
Killmonger is a villain. That's why Black Panther had to stop him.
All my memories from when this movie came out are just me going "Blade...Blade...BLADE" everytime someone said "first black superhero/Marvel lead/badass"....
Blade is a much better movie.
I would also give an honorable mention to Spawn, despite, I think, not being Marvel. Thing is, I think the whole "first black superhero" thing is intended to have a silent "nationalist" fitted in there somewhere.
@@alexvesper7820 He is Marvel IIRC, I just liked Blade slightly more. lol
LOL I loved that ending bit Connor “your mythology is shit” 😂😂😂
Sometimes I wonder what the marvel world would look like if the vibranium meteor had landed in england instead of wakanda.
The statements of Wakabe aren't incongruous
"Don't let others change us, force them to change to be like us" is entirely coherent.
It's the thinking of an ethnocentrist
To be fair, I would understand all of that, if it wasn't for the reaction. Because we have to remember, Killmonger was the villain, so the movie is supposed to portray him as resorting to an extreme and undesired solution, much like Thanos. We were supposed to see him in the light of "Ok... You have grievances, I see that, but you just went waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off man". Again, like Thanos
The difference is, while Thanos was true to that, the marketing, directing, and, of course, social movements around this movie, tried to say Killmonger was relatable. That you could easily see yourself in his shoes. And I'm like... No! This guy wanted a race war! They never tried to make us feel bad for Thanos, just to understand he was ruthless, but Killmonger they go out of their way to say "See guys? He wasn't that bad...". You can understan a villain's motivations, but realize the solution he arrived at is insane
The only character I can see walking that line is Kira from Death Note, because at least his mission was to kill off criminals. He was ruthless in the way he went about it and took out anyone who stood in his way, but at least his goal was understandable, it IS something people can relate to because we despise criminals because of their actions. A race war isn't suppose to be an understandable goal!
I'm black and I like Black Panther despite its many problems. I like the fact that T'challa realizes that Killmonger is completely nuts, racist and must be stopped. I wish that there was more pushback on him and his allies in conversation scenes though. I also like seeing an African Nation that is also a SuperPower that is even more advanced than the United States. That being said the fight for the Throne tradition is incredibly problematic as is their isolationism to a fault. That said I liked the action and the fact that the villains with the BLM black supremacist rationals are defeated. I have a feeling that part 2 is going to have even worse social issues in the plot than any in part 1. Especially since the main character T'challa is not even in the movie.
I wish they used similar action setups to Civil War or even Infinity War instead of cheap garbage CGI for the action though. Agree with everything else you said.
“He’a always angry and complaining about his grievances” sound pretty authentic to what’s happening today😂
One consolation we can have from this movie, if there are any, is that the dark continent will NEVER produce a Wakanda. It's so absurd and laughable how they call it 'the most powerful nation on earth' in the movie.
When you get down to it, Wakanda is actually completely pathetic. Even when it got access to a magic metal that could do anything, a flower that granted superpowers to pretty much anyone who ate it, and knowledge that gave its people a technological edge over the rest of the world by CENTURIES, it only ever amounted to being a tiny isolationist nation tucked away in a remote corner of Africa that absolutely no one heard about. Meanwhile, the people of Europe and Asia only invented pointy sticks, and proceeded to use them to form massive empires whose influence is still felt in the world to this very day. Really, the Wakandans have only one accomplishment: using their magic to hide their very existence from the world because these technologically-advanced supermen were just THAT afraid that whitey was gonna come in with their pointy and boom-boom sticks and get them if they didn't. They were given EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE ADVANTAGE a nation-state could possibly need to become a global superpower and then some, and they STILL ended up just being a bunch of weak little crybabies with victim complexes.
I had such a hard time talking to other black on why this movie wasn’t that good and all I get is but it’s black power though and I got dragged to see this opening week
I hope you guys were paid sufficiently to sit through 2hrs 41mins of effluent from Disney sewers.
Killmonger was well placed in the villain role. He was very pretentious. Every time he opened his mouth about ancestral wrongdoings I couldn't help rolling my eyes.
One thing I noticed about killmonger is how he talks about liberation and a Wakandan empire but then burns all the herbs ensuring that he is the last black panther. I always read this as all his talks of liberation and empires is just blowing smoke up people as well as self justification when his actuall motive was to start a war with the rest of the world and then when he dies drag Wakanda kicking and screaming alongside him as he would have no successor.
I love Ratchet and Clank 3
I even loved those silly Galactic Ranger combat missions no one else seemed to like
Not sure about sympathetic but I think the performance was better than you are giving credit for. One of the less one dimensional, boring villain's from the MCU. Not saying much, but he was one of the only redeeming things about the very mediocre, extremely overrated film.
The idea of being willing to go out and imperialize but keep the homeland pure isn't necessarily contradictory. He wants to make sure no one goes out to enter Wakanda, but he has no problem toppling foreign governments and impose ones favorable to Wakanda. Bush era neoconservatism but with strong borders isn't an untenable position, but it is a bit awkward.
I liked him as a villain but because he's unambiguously evil. His dedication to being as evil as possible makes him fun. So when I hear people saying he's sympathetic, I have to ask "how?"