Your ability to deliver complex mechanical movements in simple terms is fantastic. Also a big fan of your honesty regarding the differences between beginner feels and these more advances ideas - not a one size fits all game by any stretch. Wish i'd found your channel earlier, YT algorithm must do better!
I've watched a lot of RUclips video instructors, and you are the absolute best communicator. For you to be able to take the differences and similarities of Cowen and Foley, and make it understandable to a layman is more than commendable. Seriously. You have a knack for understanding the golf swing and relating it in an easy to follow way. I'm a satisfied customer... Thanks!
Interesting and insightful. Anyone, I believe who wants to learn and improve at golf has to understand the concepts of the teacher and core intent. That is why so many of us go to golf schools or get instruction only to be confused or disappointed. Sometimes we get lucky and what is taught actually works, but mostly we get patch work from on to another,like putting the wrong parts into an auto and expecting a fine tuned machine. Unfortunately the average golfer doesn’t have the time ,energy or insight to become elite. So same swing, same results and occasional joy and good results, at half efficiency and speed.
Tough analysis but largely true. It is a difficult game and cub level coaches have a lot of factors to weight up; practise time, commitment and talent being the big ones.
There is one thing that struck me when I watched Pete's lessons... He once mentioned that all the players are manipulators, some of them are "flippers", and some are "pickers". When you think about the swing in a horizontal plane - it is still an arc. We can flatten the arc in front of us by using the lie angle (that is why it essentially is...), but it is still an arc. If we keep the face square to the club path (aka face angle follows the arc and changes with it) - we have only a small fraction of a second when the club face actually aims at the target. It means that we have to be very precise with the moment of impact or we will hit a push (early impact) or pull (late impact). If the club face is open to the club path in the downswing - we have to close it by flipping the club. We are in fact SHORTENING the moment when the club face is square to the target ("closing" the face by changing the path in the arc AND flipping). We also add the problem of timing the two moves with the moment of impact. But... If the club face is CLOSED (vs the club path) in the downswing and we start OPENENING the face by "picking" the ball ("opening the lock" move, right rotation of the wrists), we essentially make a counter move that negates the arc effect on the club face angle (relative to the target, not club path). When we look at many tour players - they actually start the downswing with a bowed left wrist (face closed vs club path) to end the release with a cupped left wrist (face opened vs club path). You just have to do an OPPOSITE move to the flipping. Like picking the ball. Rotate wrists right. The problem with this is that you sacrifice ball trajectory control to gain more direction control. Frankly speaking, I would always prefer the direction of the shot over the ball trajectory ;-) It also allows to create really high club head speed and multiplies the "jump" effect.
I love analysis of different swing theories: it tells us which works with what. Perhaps you can also go through those that you don’t advocate and explain why. 🤞🏻
Ooh. I’m not sure I’d enjoy that. I could tell you what I don’t like about both of these coaches and many others but I’d be asking for trouble. More constructive, I’ll do more videos on principles to avoid in my opinion.
Great style. Perhaps you can talk about how different people have different capabilities both in range of movement and pure athletic ability. I bet a lot of people would appreciate that.
i think i'm finding the arms and cluhead almost have to win the race down to the ball or maybe tie the race but not get behind because then i block out to the right.
Got down to 5 hcp at old age mainly thru skill drills, but as my technique improves iv noticed a cpl of things and wonder id any other low hcps had this happen 1 ive reduced my start to finish time by half! at least a second,ive had to make my body move a lot faster and earlier esp at start of swing, 2 Result of this speed acceleration is that i can feel the shaft bend/load release somewhere between left arm // on downswing and impact any others feel thi as obviously adds a lot of acceleration to strike (i have felt shaft load in transition b4 but never near impact
In “search for the perfect swing” ( 1969) they had a pro hit two similar clubs ( 2 wood) but one of them had a hinge at the hosel. The results for both clubs were much the same the small difference of the hinge club put down the inefficiency of the hinge. The conclusion they came to that once the downswing started the clubhead acted as if was orbiting freely in space. This put into question the feelings of players that felt they could influence the club through impact. If true it also questions the feeling of applying pressure to the clubhead via the shaft. Maybe we should rerun the test.
Wow. That is interesting. Was the hinge too low impact the leverage I wonder or have I misunderstood? recently made a video with Dr Mark bull on the subject and his general feeling was that our release pattern is influenced by a number of factors and trying to influence it directly is a bit of a non-starter.
Good shout! Coaches are at their best when there is a collaborate approach in a search for knowledge 'Standing on the shoulders of giants' and all that. From an academic background it is just the way things are done. That disc drill from Marcus is bloody genius and has really help me coach the pivot and had improved my own backswing no-end. I would like to spend more time with the guy but his is a busy man.
@@GolfCoachDrNoel I can thoroughly recommend them, it will really open up your eyes to what is possible. The thing is everyone sees his videos and copies his drills, but his lesson is tailored to the individual. I’ve had five lessons from him over the years and I would say that more than half the drills I have been given, I have never seen on any of his videos. Get yourself over to Bawtry and broaden your knowledge.
I really enjoy these teaching philosophy videos. Ever since watching Sasho's vimeo viedeos about linear and angular forces, I struggle to understand the "pressure down with the right hand" idea because Sasho shows that the right hand can't keep up from P6 thru impact. The peak arm speed is less than 30 mph and decelerating thru impact while the wrists and club accelate to 100+ mph. But all this is not to say that the feeling of pressure down does not help better players. I would love to hear a more detailed discussion about this topic with Sasho and Pete Cowan, preferably. Can you pull that off, Dr. Noel? Good stuff.
I'll give them a call and see what we can do 😂. It would be useful to get these coaches and biomechanics together. I did cover that a little in this video with Dr Mark Bull. ruclips.net/video/ArqTc7zOEZQ/видео.htmlsi=b8M00sx0ZcqGk62b
One can say if you are a trailing hand / arm feel player... try Pete's coaching idea's.... If you are a leading hand / arm feel player... try Foley's What both got right is when to turn on the power for the collision with the ball.... and that is later in the process of the downswing. If you start early with the power you will not be able to sustian the pressure on the grip on the way to the collision with the ball, thus you will loose the lean angle of the shaft. If you loose the lean angle of the shaft prematurely you will not be able to release the force of the clubhead into the ball to such an extend that the ball will compress enough to make it "Hiss" during the first couple of yards and that is in essence your acid test. If you compress the ball correctly you will hear the "hissing" sound
Foley years ago said to stay "centered" over the ball which i know as a decent golfer was incorrect and would put too much pressure on your back. When he took over as Tigers coach I predicted Tiger would have back issues which is EXACTLY what happened. I dont think FOley knows the swing like people think. Chuck Cook even called him out when tiger hired him and told him "you are ruining our national treasure."
The pete cowen pressure on shaft and spinning right arm down makes great contact and compression easy, and its possible to hit the ball a mile without much of a backswing at all. Can I ask if IS a fade / out-to-in swing path though? When I do that I get good distance but pull my shots since the swing exits low left. I have a strong grip. would you play around with alignment and aim with this method of swinging - that is, perhaps aim more right to account for a swing path that is headed left? Thanks!
Since no one commented I will since I also had the same issue. Love the Cowen method. I began pulling the ball as I began to get the feel of what he was saying, but always had that problem before watching Cowen. I also developed a strong grip at the advice of my instructor over the last 2 years. So I weakened the grip after watching Cowen's method of spinning the forearms down and clearing the hips as you turn. The weakened grip (neutral grip) straightened out my shots. Still working with that. When I get to the course my old swing automatically tries to take over. From what I've learned over the past few years after trying to make my swing look more pro like is while learning to change your habits and swing, do it during practice and not while on the course with friends trying to have fun. Let it happen on the course when muscle memory has taken over. Slowly for me, that has begun to happen. I don't have hours everyday to practice, but 5 minutes here and 30 minutes there, even without a club at home is helping with muscle memory. But put a ball in front of me to hit and boom, the brain wants to go back to old habits. So I just have one thing in my head for 3 parts of the swing. The backswing, contact, and finish. I got of list of 12 routines, but only pick 3 to practice over and over until it feels natural while swinging, then move to another routine on my list to practice. It takes awhile for motor memory to take over so I am playing the long game. Less is more. Too many different teaching methods online and even real time instructors. I learned to pick the ones that I gravitate to and are alike, and makes the most sense to what I think will work for me, and once how a nice swing looks and then I save those drills that mimic that pro swing we see all the time. Anyway, I only meant to say neutral grip helped me with the Cowen method to stop pulling and strong hooks.
Foley years ago said to stay "centered" over the ball which i know as a decent golfer was incorrect and would put too much pressure on your back. When he took over as Tigers coach I predicted Tiger would have back issues which is EXACTLY what happened. I dont think FOley knows the swing like people think. Chuck Cook even called him out when tiger hired him and told him "you are ruining our national treasure."
Finally a coach that explains it perfect...It's like a breath of fresh air.Thank you.
Your ability to deliver complex mechanical movements in simple terms is fantastic. Also a big fan of your honesty regarding the differences between beginner feels and these more advances ideas - not a one size fits all game by any stretch. Wish i'd found your channel earlier, YT algorithm must do better!
Thank you very much!
I've watched a lot of RUclips video instructors, and you are the absolute best communicator. For you to be able to take the differences and similarities of Cowen and Foley, and make it understandable to a layman is more than commendable. Seriously. You have a knack for understanding the golf swing and relating it in an easy to follow way. I'm a satisfied customer... Thanks!
Wow! Thank you 🙏
Interesting and insightful. Anyone, I believe who wants to learn and improve at golf has to understand the concepts of the teacher and core intent. That is why so many of us go to golf schools or get instruction only to be confused or disappointed. Sometimes we get lucky and what is taught actually works, but mostly we get patch work from on to another,like putting the wrong parts into an auto and expecting a fine tuned machine. Unfortunately the average golfer doesn’t have the time ,energy or insight to become elite. So same swing, same results and occasional joy and good results, at half efficiency and speed.
Tough analysis but largely true. It is a difficult game and cub level coaches have a lot of factors to weight up; practise time, commitment and talent being the big ones.
I have yet to hire a golf instructor who helped improve my game. And spent a lot on lessons and golf schools.
Exellent video. I have watched Cowen and Foleys videos but your video make it more clear 👍
Many thanks. I find that his videos always contain a lot more information and sometimes the fundamental aspects get a little bit lost.
There is one thing that struck me when I watched Pete's lessons... He once mentioned that all the players are manipulators, some of them are "flippers", and some are "pickers".
When you think about the swing in a horizontal plane - it is still an arc. We can flatten the arc in front of us by using the lie angle (that is why it essentially is...), but it is still an arc.
If we keep the face square to the club path (aka face angle follows the arc and changes with it) - we have only a small fraction of a second when the club face actually aims at the target.
It means that we have to be very precise with the moment of impact or we will hit a push (early impact) or pull (late impact).
If the club face is open to the club path in the downswing - we have to close it by flipping the club. We are in fact SHORTENING the moment when the club face is square to the target ("closing" the face by changing the path in the arc AND flipping). We also add the problem of timing the two moves with the moment of impact.
But... If the club face is CLOSED (vs the club path) in the downswing and we start OPENENING the face by "picking" the ball ("opening the lock" move, right rotation of the wrists), we essentially make a counter move that negates the arc effect on the club face angle (relative to the target, not club path).
When we look at many tour players - they actually start the downswing with a bowed left wrist (face closed vs club path) to end the release with a cupped left wrist (face opened vs club path).
You just have to do an OPPOSITE move to the flipping. Like picking the ball. Rotate wrists right. The problem with this is that you sacrifice ball trajectory control to gain more direction control. Frankly speaking, I would always prefer the direction of the shot over the ball trajectory ;-)
It also allows to create really high club head speed and multiplies the "jump" effect.
Excellent series of videos explaining the different philosophies of these two top coaches.
Thanks John. It's been interesting to put together.
Really helpful insight. Particularly the difference between amateurs and pro’s.
I love analysis of different swing theories: it tells us which works with what. Perhaps you can also go through those that you don’t advocate and explain why. 🤞🏻
Ooh. I’m not sure I’d enjoy that. I could tell you what I don’t like about both of these coaches and many others but I’d be asking for trouble. More constructive, I’ll do more videos on principles to avoid in my opinion.
Great style. Perhaps you can talk about how different people have different capabilities both in range of movement and pure athletic ability. I bet a lot of people would appreciate that.
Thanks. Good shout. I’ll put continuing together.
i think i'm finding the arms and cluhead almost have to win the race down to the ball or maybe tie the race but not get behind because then i block out to the right.
Got down to 5 hcp at old age mainly thru skill drills, but as my technique improves iv noticed a cpl of things and wonder id any other low hcps had this happen
1 ive reduced my start to finish time by half! at least a second,ive had to make my body move a lot faster and earlier esp at start of swing,
2 Result of this speed acceleration is that i can feel the shaft bend/load release somewhere between left arm // on downswing and impact
any others feel thi as obviously adds a lot of acceleration to strike (i have felt shaft load in transition b4 but never near impact
In “search for the perfect swing” ( 1969) they had a pro hit two similar clubs ( 2 wood) but one of them had a hinge at the hosel. The results for both clubs were much the same the small difference of the hinge club put down the inefficiency of the hinge.
The conclusion they came to that once the downswing started the clubhead acted as if was orbiting freely in space.
This put into question the feelings of players that felt they could influence the club through impact. If true it also questions the feeling of applying pressure to the clubhead via the shaft.
Maybe we should rerun the test.
Wow. That is interesting. Was the hinge too low impact the leverage I wonder or have I misunderstood? recently made a video with Dr Mark bull on the subject and his general feeling was that our release pattern is influenced by a number of factors and trying to influence it directly is a bit of a non-starter.
Really pleased to see you giving Marcus Bell credit. There are a few RUclipsrs who use his stuff, but never give credit.
Good shout! Coaches are at their best when there is a collaborate approach in a search for knowledge 'Standing on the shoulders of giants' and all that.
From an academic background it is just the way things are done.
That disc drill from Marcus is bloody genius and has really help me coach the pivot and had improved my own backswing no-end. I would like to spend more time with the guy but his is a busy man.
@@GolfCoachDrNoel I can thoroughly recommend them, it will really open up your eyes to what is possible. The thing is everyone sees his videos and copies his drills, but his lesson is tailored to the individual. I’ve had five lessons from him over the years and I would say that more than half the drills I have been given, I have never seen on any of his videos.
Get yourself over to Bawtry and broaden your knowledge.
I really enjoy these teaching philosophy videos. Ever since watching Sasho's vimeo viedeos about linear and angular forces, I struggle to understand the "pressure down with the right hand" idea because Sasho shows that the right hand can't keep up from P6 thru impact. The peak arm speed is less than 30 mph and decelerating thru impact while the wrists and club accelate to 100+ mph. But all this is not to say that the feeling of pressure down does not help better players. I would love to hear a more detailed discussion about this topic with Sasho and Pete Cowan, preferably. Can you pull that off, Dr. Noel? Good stuff.
I'll give them a call and see what we can do 😂. It would be useful to get these coaches and biomechanics together. I did cover that a little in this video with Dr Mark Bull. ruclips.net/video/ArqTc7zOEZQ/видео.htmlsi=b8M00sx0ZcqGk62b
Thanks!@@GolfCoachDrNoel
One can say if you are a trailing hand / arm feel player... try Pete's coaching idea's.... If you are a leading hand / arm feel player... try Foley's
What both got right is when to turn on the power for the collision with the ball.... and that is later in the process of the downswing. If you start early with the power you will not be able to sustian the pressure on the grip on the way to the collision with the ball, thus you will loose the lean angle of the shaft. If you loose the lean angle of the shaft prematurely you will not be able to release the force of the clubhead into the ball to such an extend that the ball will compress enough to make it "Hiss" during the first couple of yards and that is in essence your acid test. If you compress the ball correctly you will hear the "hissing" sound
Thanks for the input. Interesting point.
Foley years ago said to stay "centered" over the ball which i know as a decent golfer was incorrect and would put too much pressure on your back. When he took over as Tigers coach I predicted Tiger would have back issues which is EXACTLY what happened. I dont think FOley knows the swing like people think. Chuck Cook even called him out when tiger hired him and told him "you are ruining our national treasure."
The pete cowen pressure on shaft and spinning right arm down makes great contact and compression easy, and its possible to hit the ball a mile without much of a backswing at all. Can I ask if IS a fade / out-to-in swing path though? When I do that I get good distance but pull my shots since the swing exits low left. I have a strong grip. would you play around with alignment and aim with this method of swinging - that is, perhaps aim more right to account for a swing path that is headed left? Thanks!
Since no one commented I will since I also had the same issue. Love the Cowen method. I began pulling the ball as I began to get the feel of what he was saying, but always had that problem before watching Cowen. I also developed a strong grip at the advice of my instructor over the last 2 years. So I weakened the grip after watching Cowen's method of spinning the forearms down and clearing the hips as you turn. The weakened grip (neutral grip) straightened out my shots. Still working with that. When I get to the course my old swing automatically tries to take over. From what I've learned over the past few years after trying to make my swing look more pro like is while learning to change your habits and swing, do it during practice and not while on the course with friends trying to have fun. Let it happen on the course when muscle memory has taken over. Slowly for me, that has begun to happen. I don't have hours everyday to practice, but 5 minutes here and 30 minutes there, even without a club at home is helping with muscle memory. But put a ball in front of me to hit and boom, the brain wants to go back to old habits. So I just have one thing in my head for 3 parts of the swing. The backswing, contact, and finish. I got of list of 12 routines, but only pick 3 to practice over and over until it feels natural while swinging, then move to another routine on my list to practice. It takes awhile for motor memory to take over so I am playing the long game. Less is more.
Too many different teaching methods online and even real time instructors. I learned to pick the ones that I gravitate to and are alike, and makes the most sense to what I think will work for me, and once how a nice swing looks and then I save those drills that mimic that pro swing we see all the time.
Anyway, I only meant to say neutral grip helped me with the Cowen method to stop pulling and strong hooks.
i think the pete cowen style is the most instinctive and easiest to perform and repeat.
Top 2? Foley? Cannot agree with the premise. I correlate Woods’ back injuries with Foley’s coaching tenure. Pretty far from the top.
Uhm...you mean 2 and 3 😅
The whole 'best in the world thing is ridiculous but you gotta get the click through rate 😂Out of interest, who is number one in your mind?
Sean Foley is great? Naaah.
Foley years ago said to stay "centered" over the ball which i know as a decent golfer was incorrect and would put too much pressure on your back. When he took over as Tigers coach I predicted Tiger would have back issues which is EXACTLY what happened. I dont think FOley knows the swing like people think. Chuck Cook even called him out when tiger hired him and told him "you are ruining our national treasure."
Yes. Foley was a stack and tilt guy back then. Since then he has spent time with biomechanics (and the experience Tiger)
…and is now completely the other way: the backswing is a stretch to the right. Anti stack and tilt
On the other hand, I just wish that Cowen could communicate his ideas better.