Thanks to the 16 people who signed up to Patreon this week, along with those who sent one-off donations! As you know, my hourly rate without any support is in the cents - and this now likely brings me into the dollars. How good is that?! 😎 www.patreon.com/cyclingabout
@@helmetless As I stated in the video, the steering is complex so I cannot definitively say one length is better than another. This is because of different handlebar designs, head tube angles, fork offsets, tyre widths, tyre pressures, tread patterns and casing materials. My best advice is to use a stem length that gives you the ride position you're most comfortable. Try to make sure your hands are in the upper half of the steering arc to take advantage of the self-centring. If you end up with a super short stem - that's cool, it won't change the steering characteristics by a whole lot, provided you have a wide handlebar.
This information is literally life saving. After a road bump induced crash, I have learned to lower the tire pressure as low as possible. Now I will fit a slightly longer stem and wider drop bar.
I’ve effectively been using a 0mm stem for the last decade. I have a 50mm stem, but with butterfly bars that put my hands on the steering axis. I have only had that one set up for all that time so I have no basis for comparison, but it has never been even the slightest of issues for me. Works great in fact.
Tim here again in ColoRADo. I am a pro mechanic and a bike nerd. Once again we’ll done. I stumbled on tour channel and I am impressed again. I will become a Patreon. Keep up the great work and keep the rubber side down.
This is the most definitive, numbers backed, insight into bike stems. Off to change my bike's stem from 70mm to 50mm, which was already down from 100mm and compensate with wider bars for a more upright riding.
I seriously learn so much from these videos. Made me realize just how intricate bike design and optimization can be. I knew I didnt know much, but every time I learn something new I realize just how wide that knowledge gap can be. THANK YOU!
When talking about Dutch Bikes you should mention that a lot of them have a Spring between the Fork and the Frame to counter the twitchiness and pull the fork straight
Brilliant sir! Alot of our brains work in this way and are needing presentations like this to really help make sense of it all while dialing in our rigs and this is just so very helpful. Thank you! ☮️
Very good video and well explained. I’ve been looking for a video about how stem lengths could affect our riding, and this just answered all my questions. Thank you!
Big fan of this video. Will take a while to digest all the content, thanks again for making this. Its going to help a lot on my conversion of an old mtb frame to a drop bar adventure bike.
Glad it was helpful! I know it's pretty heavy info, but if you can go over it a few times, take a few notes - you will understand the topic just as well as me. 👍🏻
@@Cyclingabout Absolutely, I am going through for my second view now. I saw your video on frame material effects on comfort and also found it very enlightening. Thanks again, I am making my way to your patreon page now.
Weight distribution has an enormous affect as well as the figures you discuss. On my ustom steel road frame the designer started off choosing the fork offset and stem length for the application then designing the whole frame around that. He designed for a 120mm stem, I've run the bike with stems of 100-130 mm and 130 mm is by far the best for handling and cornering at speed. It's poor for commuting speeds and tight low speed manouevers at traffic junctions. ! like to run 130 for road racing and crits, 110 for cx and 90-100 for XC. Of course, reach and fork offset/trail play a part as well, but I always experiemnt with +/- 10 mm on each bike to get weight distribution right.
I don't usually add comments but I think your channel is fantastic. The little things like stem length and height could make a massive difference in someone's ride. Your helping people including myself. Just one thing though. There is so much competition on RUclips. While I do agree that your one of the best. The whole asking for money thing is slightly uncomfortable for me. Not that I don't think your worth it. It's just the way you break down your approximate hourly rate for doing this. I don't think that's a good way to break it down. But that's just me. Just one guys opinion. Great content
Thanks. I'm just looking at creative ways to ask for support, sorry it rubbed you the wrong way. Have you got other suggestions for how I should do this?
@@Cyclingabout I don't know. I guess biking to me is a hobby and a love. So I don't associate money with it. You got alot of knowledge I think your passion and your motivation will ultimately make you money without asking. Thank for the video on the stem lengths btw. Bought a different stem today because of your video. Much better!
@@markrey8888 I've been sharing free technical information about bikes on my website for about 10 years, and I will continue to do so because I love it. RUclips is a different beast though, it requires much more time investment than a blog post with the same content. If I can raise the funds I need to make it worth my time, then I will continue to make videos. If not, I'll have to go back to sharing content solely on my website.
Man, I just love your content! You answered a whole bunch of questions that have been swirling in my head for decades, and a whole bunch more I've never even thought about! I enjoy every one of your videos and have your books, too! Keep them coming!
Thanks again Alee for your thorough explanation of Bike Tech. All this is so usefull for me, being a Signature Advisor @ Koga ( and Bike Nerd..). Looking forward for new a episode. Keep it up!
Very helpful. Thank you. You confirmed I made the right decision to a shorter stem. The original stem on my GoGoBest ebike GF750, was way too long bringing tha bars far away from me making my arms straight , elbows almost locked.
Interesting video. Thank you. I don't know how much you have covered chainstay length. People might like to know more about, or be clearer on, how chainstay length affects handling. I like the way long chain stays add stability on gravel road descents. They can really make a difference. They can also help with rear pannier positioning and clearance, and have other effects.
Spot on summary here. Highlighting the self stabilizing characteristics of the forward half of the steering arc is important and I'm glad you covered that as it is something that isn't widely known. I think there is one aspect you didn't cover which is that when steering a road bike with a long stem and narrow bars much of your movement is side to side translation, which uses a totally different set of muscles than the push-pull motion of mountain bike steering. How muscular difference interacts with the rider I don't know yet, but hope to find out at some point in the future.
@@Cyclingabout Steering speed isn't altered, but the amount of force we can exert in translation is less than pushing, so our perception and execution of a steering action is different. Consider also how one would recruit muscles when translating the bars sideways- there seems to be less to brace yourself against unless you have the nose of the saddle between your legs. This could have implication for control when on rough surfaces and the rider is out of the saddle.
Thanks a lot for this science, it makes me feel better running a 30mm stem and 48cm flared handlebars on my Kona Rove ST, I always wondered why it felt so stable despite de short stem .
@@Cyclingabout Yes, just put down my deposit on a Moonshiner and having one built out. Riding it is wonderfully different from anything I have tried. Also, thank you for all your great videos.
This was absolutely awesome! I am new to all this and trying to figure out how to design a fixed gear bike. Do you have a video about how to go about designing a bike? What is most important? The frame? The geometry? The gearing? The handlebars? The wheels? Thanks!
Hi I've elops speed 920. Is it possible to install a new stem and handle bar stem so the length can be increased. Its leaning forward and very destabalizing
I'm having a hard time with the sweptback bars part. So swept back bars put you behind the steering axis with a short stem. Is that a bad thing? My current bike has the original Velo Orange Crazy bars with a 70mm stem, putting me behind the steering axis a bit. Ive ridden this way on all sorts of tours, with everything from pavement to small ledge drops and lots of rocks. I'm looking for a new bike and trying to keep a similar effective top tube of my current bike so I know i will be comfortable, but i wonder how a slacker bike would handle with that weight behind the steering axis?
Steering in the upper half of the steering arc allows your bars to self-centre, which is particularly important when you’re slowing down. It sounds like you're only just behind, so you probably won't notice any negative handling effects. A slacker bike requires more effort to steer, and it *could* exacerbate the lack of self-centring when you brake. But you'd need to go much slacker, and much lower in the steering arc to even notice. It'd also depend on the fork offset, tire size, tire compound, tire pressure + more.
Summed it up pretty well at the end there. Couldn’t find this info anywhere else, super informative. Wanted to see if I could get away with a short mtb stem on my surly straggler if I get some 52cm salsa woodchippers. Seems like a go for me plus I carry a lot of weight in the front so the wide bars should help that. Thank you!!
Thanks for all that info! I ride all winter in canada, sometimes in foot deep snow, and i'm trying to have the most stable steering possible. If I understand well, my current 900mm swept back bars and 25mm stem are the best i can get right?
It really depends on all of the other steering characteristics. But assuming you have a fat bike, I imagine that the high leverage of your 900mm bar and the neutral steering of a short stem is pretty ideal on a bike with slow steering (ie. high trail) and lots of pneumatic trail too (3-5" tyres at low pressure).
@@Cyclingabout nice! i ride 2.5" tires and my bike has about 7cm of trail. Do you know if more "soft" trail acts differently than the same overall trail with smaller tires?
Basically if the reach is long for you you could ride a shorter stem without noticing too much, and if the reach is just right or shorter don't put a shorter stem on it bcz you'll notice it more? Thanks!
Thanks so much for this. I need to order a fat bike for my fast-growing daughter (currently growing about 1cm / 4 months!) and I therefore ordered it a little big -- about as big as would fit her mom. That means I need to put a shorter stem on it to reduce the reach, and I was worried about the steering effect. Given that it's fat tire and wide bars, my guess is it will not be an issue at all, given the low single-digit percentage change you show for flat bars shortened to 0cm stem. Here, we'd just be going from 8cm to 3.5 cm.
Excellent research and analysis, great topic. 👍 Without a doubt a shorter stem decreases or shortens the steering arc from the steering axis. The width of the handlebar also affects the steering axis. And absolutely effects the twitchiness, based on my own experiments with many different size length stems. After 26 years of riding on two wheels, I know what steering input and steering output feels like, especially at higher speeds. The fact that a company is trying to sell something, and states there is no difference in twitchiness utilizing a zero millimeter stem... it's just silly. Perhaps they do not understand physics and are seemingly nothing but a bunch of talking heads. 😂🤦🏻♂️
Great vid. Can you do a video on why I have toe overlap on my gravel bike, but not on my road bike (and my toes are really far away from the front tire on my MTB). Thought gravel bikes were supposed to be longer and slacker than road bikes. I'm not the only one of my riding friends who have noticed this. Does it have to do with bottom bracket height?
It's likely just the larger overall wheel diameter with a fatter tyre. It sounds like the slightly longer frame reach is simply not keeping up with the growing wheel size!
Love your videos! Amazing Quality Content! What do you think is the slackest HTA you would go for that is best for steep techincal climbs but also good for long fast road rides? Thanks Alee!
Cheers! The slackest I could get used to for fast road rides is probably 69 degrees. After that, you need a pretty big rake/offset to keep the wheel flop in check.
What is the bike with the orange front rack into aero bars with the custom bag? It's the one for the drop bar width illustration. Love this idea and would like to know who that frame builder is. Cheers
Fantastic video. Do you have a video that is about overall bike ergonomics? Looking for something perhaps that would explain seat height/reach/stem height or length. No matter how much I tweak my seat and stem/bars, I still get numb hands. Thanks
I don't have anything about ergonomics, but I'll think about what I could possibly do on the topic. Hand numbness is a hard one because there are so many factors in play. Do you use gel padded gloves? I find they are excellent at both damping vibrations and absorbing bigger hits, while conforming to whatever handlebar shape you're grabbing on to. I use the Roeckl Bellavista.
@@Cyclingabout I don't. I have the Giro DND gloves and use Ergon GE1 (thin) grips. I was told that it's because my bars need to be higher, but when i do raise the bar height, I feel a bit too high up even though my hands feel less numb.
@@thefeelz5845 I've had a lot of success with Ergon GP1 grips (GC1 if you have a sweptback bar like me) in combination with gel gloves. Definitely worth a shot!
Hi Alex, great video! I just want to clarify that you recommend minimum 75mm stems for bikepacking handlebars with back sweep? I am changing from Velo Orange Crazy bars to the Soma Dream Riser on my Surly ECR, and want to also confirm that you recommend that your hands are always in front of the steering arc no matter what the handlebar is.
When trying to keep the reach similar or even try make it feel longer, how does using a wider handlebar and shorter stem work? (e.g. 760mm handlebar + 60mm stem change to 800mm handlebar + 35mm stem)
This depends on the distance from your saddle-to-steerer tube. For an average height rider using a flat bar, 10mm off the stem is probably worth around 20mm in extra handlebar width. But this changes as the frame gets longer or shorter.
You may change the centre of gravity and load on the front tyre, but it's not by much. This is because much of the weight is centred around your hips/legs so small adjustments to your hands don't really matter.
im confused on the swept bar situation. How does using a 100mm stem make a swept back bar twitchier if the minimum length needed to steer in the upper arc is 75mm? Wouldn't a 100mm stem put the steering axis 25 mm farther into the upper steering arc?
The 0mm stem puts your hands 75mm behind the steering axis, while the 100mm stem puts them 25mm in front. The result is shorter hand displacement numbers (twitchier) for the long stem because your hands are closer to the steering axis.
well, it's all fine, but what about vibrations that hit right into the bar form the steering tube and fork? I'm aware that stem isn't like long carbon seatpost, but certainly it has some absorbtion properties.
I assume this is a comment for my frame comfort video? As it says in the title, the video was specifically made for understanding frame comfort. I can look at other aspects of comfort (handlebars, stems, forks, grips) in other videos.
CYCLINGABOUT of course it's related to that video, I made an assumption that stem also helps with comfort. But maybe it's totally wrong. Just a digression, I'm not sure about making whole video just about it, though I think there're other things that helps with comfort you might look into.
hey Ali, thanks for sharing you knowledge. curious what length stem you use with your denham bars? Also, if they are used with a short stem, how steering in the lower half of the arc affects handling, especially at braking from speed and on technical descents. thanks
I use a 120mm stem, so my effective stem length is about 50mm. A 75mm stem is about as short as you'd want to go with the Denham Bars for any off-road stuff.
Yes, the effective stem lengths I'm using here are different from the actual stem lengths! I probably should've mentioned that in my video. Once a stem is on a bike, the positive degrees of a stem actually work out to be very close to the percentage you lose from its length. Eg. A 100mm stem positive 20-degree stem is effectively approximately 80mm, and 100mm/30d is approximately 70mm.
Its something like riding a foldable bike, its sensitive handling,btw i just did reverse negative stem, seems its possible but need to relearn the steering.Shifted my cockpit backwards due to poorly designed frame.
Hmm. That was really interesting. I have now a 90 mm stem and bought a new handle bar - butterfly from Ergotech - instead of the straight one I had. I am aiming for a angle-adjustable stem with the same length so that I get a bit more upright position - trekking position from sport like. I thought that if I angle the stem 45 degrees then I have shortened the stem to 78 but I would have thought that did noting to the steering. The new handlebar is almost the same width as the old one and it has its opening forwards so a part of it is going to be in front of the steering axis. I hope I haven't made a stupid decision.
A 90mm, 45d stem works out at about 40-45mm horizontally when fitted to a bike. The best thing to do is to play around with the cockpit and see what works for you!
All made sense until you raised the swept back bars. You note that you want to be in the front area of the steering arc for self corrected steering but that 0mm stem is the best for less twitchiness. How can this be possible as the two seem counterintuitive. I ask because I have Jones h bars on my too big touring bike and I need to tighten the reach.
Run a piece of string from the middle of one grip across to the middle of the other. If the string runs in front of your headset top cap bolt, you can shorten your stem and still be able to steer in the upper half of the steering arc. But keep in mind that lots of folks ride bikes that steer in the lower half of the steering arc - my video just discusses best-practice design.
@@Cyclingabout thank you. Yes I did something similar I just used a stick. I will have to see how the steering goes in the lower arc because I tend to get sore palms after 40 mins or so. Alternately I will need to step down a size in the frame. I have long legs but relatively short upper body. Love the vids btw
@@thomask837 To solve the sore palms issue, it might pay to make your cockpit taller, as you are likely placing too much weight on your palms (not enough core strength to hold the position). Also, check out the Ergon GC1 grips and Roeckl Bellavista gel gloves which will help create a larger, more neutral surface for your hands.
I'm sure this is all true. But, I have an old mountain bike with wide straight bars and a 12.5mm stem and its really twitchy as you call it. I hadn't noticed until I started cycling more and longer distances on it. Its so bad I can't really ever let go of the handlebars in the way I used to (occasionally) with my old drop bar racing bike (R.I.P) which had a much shorter stem.
I think very little is relevant! 😂 The steering width principles will apply though, although some recumbents use linkage steering, so maybe it doesn't??
many more people need to watch such vids coz they may get into cycling and not like it coz of such things so if they learn this b4 buying a bike they will have more fun thereby getting more and more people into cycling I believe that is a good thing ? right?
I wonder why bike reviewers in the Mainstream Cycling Media never mention that the slow or twitchy steering of a bike they are reviewing can be changed with a different set of bars and a different stem?
Interesting info . You do however seem to miss pointing out that zero length stem will make the front end wander a lot when climbing steep inclines due to body weight distribution unless you lean right over the front end. This will be particularly noticeable if running the bars quite high...but I'm sure you know that. Maybe I missed you mentioning it but it seems important to me.
![KSI - Dirty [Official Visualiser]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VoDh1h1dPUE/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks to the 16 people who signed up to Patreon this week, along with those who sent one-off donations! As you know, my hourly rate without any support is in the cents - and this now likely brings me into the dollars. How good is that?! 😎 www.patreon.com/cyclingabout
I was awaiting the TOURING-ORIENTED advice regarding the rol of stems when carrying front luggage. Is large better in this case? Thanks
@@helmetless As I stated in the video, the steering is complex so I cannot definitively say one length is better than another. This is because of different handlebar designs, head tube angles, fork offsets, tyre widths, tyre pressures, tread patterns and casing materials.
My best advice is to use a stem length that gives you the ride position you're most comfortable. Try to make sure your hands are in the upper half of the steering arc to take advantage of the self-centring. If you end up with a super short stem - that's cool, it won't change the steering characteristics by a whole lot, provided you have a wide handlebar.
Bike nerds unite!
assemble
Pokeball at 7:23 gotta catch all the stem lengths!
This information is literally life saving. After a road bump induced crash, I have learned to lower the tire pressure as low as possible. Now I will fit a slightly longer stem and wider drop bar.
I’ve effectively been using a 0mm stem for the last decade. I have a 50mm stem, but with butterfly bars that put my hands on the steering axis. I have only had that one set up for all that time so I have no basis for comparison, but it has never been even the slightest of issues for me. Works great in fact.
Tim here again in ColoRADo. I am a pro mechanic and a bike nerd. Once again we’ll done. I stumbled on tour channel and I am impressed again. I will become a Patreon. Keep up the great work and keep the rubber side down.
Cheers Tim! Appreciate the kind words. 🙏🏼
ColaRADIANo?
Thank you kindly for these uploads as of late, hope you are staying safe and looking forward to your touring impressions up in my neck of the woods!
No worries! Everything is all cool here in Mexico... hope the world is a bit less crazy soon so I can disappear into the wilderness again. 🏜
This is the most definitive, numbers backed, insight into bike stems. Off to change my bike's stem from 70mm to 50mm, which was already down from 100mm and compensate with wider bars for a more upright riding.
Cheers! All of my bike information is backed with data; I hope everyone can put it to good use, just like yourself. 👌🏼
I seriously learn so much from these videos. Made me realize just how intricate bike design and optimization can be. I knew I didnt know much, but every time I learn something new I realize just how wide that knowledge gap can be. THANK YOU!
When talking about Dutch Bikes you should mention that a lot of them have a Spring between the Fork and the Frame to counter the twitchiness and pull the fork straight
"if you're still here, you're probably a massive bike nerd like me"
Hey! Oh... yeah...
Brilliant sir! Alot of our brains work in this way and are needing presentations like this to really help make sense of it all while dialing in our rigs and this is just so very helpful. Thank you! ☮️
Glad it was helpful!
Very good video and well explained. I’ve been looking for a video about how stem lengths could affect our riding, and this just answered all my questions. Thank you!
7:24 - still here. Yup, I'm a massive bike nerd as well. Cheers
Big fan of this video. Will take a while to digest all the content, thanks again for making this. Its going to help a lot on my conversion of an old mtb frame to a drop bar adventure bike.
Glad it was helpful! I know it's pretty heavy info, but if you can go over it a few times, take a few notes - you will understand the topic just as well as me. 👍🏻
@@Cyclingabout Absolutely, I am going through for my second view now. I saw your video on frame material effects on comfort and also found it very enlightening. Thanks again, I am making my way to your patreon page now.
Weight distribution has an enormous affect as well as the figures you discuss. On my ustom steel road frame the designer started off choosing the fork offset and stem length for the application then designing the whole frame around that. He designed for a 120mm stem, I've run the bike with stems of 100-130 mm and 130 mm is by far the best for handling and cornering at speed. It's poor for commuting speeds and tight low speed manouevers at traffic junctions. ! like to run 130 for road racing and crits, 110 for cx and 90-100 for XC. Of course, reach and fork offset/trail play a part as well, but I always experiemnt with +/- 10 mm on each bike to get weight distribution right.
I don't usually add comments but I think your channel is fantastic. The little things like stem length and height could make a massive difference in someone's ride. Your helping people including myself. Just one thing though. There is so much competition on RUclips. While I do agree that your one of the best. The whole asking for money thing is slightly uncomfortable for me. Not that I don't think your worth it. It's just the way you break down your approximate hourly rate for doing this. I don't think that's a good way to break it down. But that's just me. Just one guys opinion. Great content
Thanks. I'm just looking at creative ways to ask for support, sorry it rubbed you the wrong way. Have you got other suggestions for how I should do this?
@@Cyclingabout I don't know. I guess biking to me is a hobby and a love. So I don't associate money with it. You got alot of knowledge I think your passion and your motivation will ultimately make you money without asking. Thank for the video on the stem lengths btw. Bought a different stem today because of your video. Much better!
@@markrey8888 I've been sharing free technical information about bikes on my website for about 10 years, and I will continue to do so because I love it. RUclips is a different beast though, it requires much more time investment than a blog post with the same content. If I can raise the funds I need to make it worth my time, then I will continue to make videos. If not, I'll have to go back to sharing content solely on my website.
What's your website?
CyclingAbout.com
Man, I just love your content! You answered a whole bunch of questions that have been swirling in my head for decades, and a whole bunch more I've never even thought about! I enjoy every one of your videos and have your books, too! Keep them coming!
Thanks for the kind words! Will hopefully have more tech videos coming later this year. 😎
Thanks again Alee for your thorough explanation of Bike Tech. All this is so usefull for me, being a Signature Advisor @ Koga ( and Bike Nerd..). Looking forward for new a episode. Keep it up!
Glad it's helpful! Hopefully the info helps people to ride the best bikes possible for their needs. 💪🏼
these are very good videos, thank you for all the work you're doing
Glad you like them!
this is just what i was looking for. thank you for this very comprehensive yet well worded explainer
Glad it was helpful!
Very helpful. Thank you. You confirmed I made the right decision to a shorter stem. The original stem on my GoGoBest ebike GF750, was way too long bringing tha bars far away from me making my arms straight , elbows almost locked.
Interesting video. Thank you.
I don't know how much you have covered chainstay length. People might like to know more about, or be clearer on, how chainstay length affects handling.
I like the way long chain stays add stability on gravel road descents. They can really make a difference.
They can also help with rear pannier positioning and clearance, and have other effects.
I haven't covered chainstays in depth. I'll have a think about it as a topic for another week though!
great video very helpful cheers for posting
Spot on summary here. Highlighting the self stabilizing characteristics of the forward half of the steering arc is important and I'm glad you covered that as it is something that isn't widely known. I think there is one aspect you didn't cover which is that when steering a road bike with a long stem and narrow bars much of your movement is side to side translation, which uses a totally different set of muscles than the push-pull motion of mountain bike steering. How muscular difference interacts with the rider I don't know yet, but hope to find out at some point in the future.
That's an interesting idea I indeed haven't considered. Is your theory that different muscle strengths alter the steering speed?
@@Cyclingabout Steering speed isn't altered, but the amount of force we can exert in translation is less than pushing, so our perception and execution of a steering action is different. Consider also how one would recruit muscles when translating the bars sideways- there seems to be less to brace yourself against unless you have the nose of the saddle between your legs. This could have implication for control when on rough surfaces and the rider is out of the saddle.
Seems pretty plausible to me, but I'm stumped with how we could measure the effect!
Thanks a lot for this science, it makes me feel better running a 30mm stem and 48cm flared handlebars on my Kona Rove ST, I always wondered why it felt so stable despite de short stem .
Such a helpful video. Analog Cycles doing some great work.
The Analog builds are great for touring! They're often nice and upright, have low gear ratios, no toe overlap, fat tyres and long chainstays. 👍🏻
@@Cyclingabout Yes, just put down my deposit on a Moonshiner and having one built out. Riding it is wonderfully different from anything I have tried. Also, thank you for all your great videos.
Will raising the handle bar without too much cutback on stem length be helpful?
This is fascinating! thanks for doing this video
My pleasure!
It’s a drinking game. One shot every time he says “twitchy” and 2 shots every time he says “twitchiness”.
This was absolutely awesome! I am new to all this and trying to figure out how to design a fixed gear bike. Do you have a video about how to go about designing a bike? What is most important? The frame? The geometry? The gearing? The handlebars? The wheels? Thanks!
Love that action shot while your fully loaded 1:50
Great and insightful video again! Hope you can make a video talking about galvanic corrosion in the future.
thanks man, i have back and neck problems im going to try a 0 degree stem, all the best
Good analysis. Thanks
this was very very very informative. Thank you very much!
Hi I've elops speed 920. Is it possible to install a new stem and handle bar stem so the length can be increased.
Its leaning forward and very destabalizing
I'm having a hard time with the sweptback bars part. So swept back bars put you behind the steering axis with a short stem. Is that a bad thing? My current bike has the original Velo Orange Crazy bars with a 70mm stem, putting me behind the steering axis a bit. Ive ridden this way on all sorts of tours, with everything from pavement to small ledge drops and lots of rocks. I'm looking for a new bike and trying to keep a similar effective top tube of my current bike so I know i will be comfortable, but i wonder how a slacker bike would handle with that weight behind the steering axis?
Steering in the upper half of the steering arc allows your bars to self-centre, which is particularly important when you’re slowing down. It sounds like you're only just behind, so you probably won't notice any negative handling effects.
A slacker bike requires more effort to steer, and it *could* exacerbate the lack of self-centring when you brake. But you'd need to go much slacker, and much lower in the steering arc to even notice. It'd also depend on the fork offset, tire size, tire compound, tire pressure + more.
Very cool video. Very cool mission.
Awesome, seldom talked about subject.
I love drop bars, but I can't see why you would need them on a bike with monster tires (6:00)?
This video made me sub to your channel. That was super informative. thank you so much for sharing all that
Awesome! Thank you!
Summed it up pretty well at the end there. Couldn’t find this info anywhere else, super informative. Wanted to see if I could get away with a short mtb stem on my surly straggler if I get some 52cm salsa woodchippers. Seems like a go for me plus I carry a lot of weight in the front so the wide bars should help that. Thank you!!
I love this science behind cycling 🤩....
Thanks for all that info! I ride all winter in canada, sometimes in foot deep snow, and i'm trying to have the most stable steering possible. If I understand well, my current 900mm swept back bars and 25mm stem are the best i can get right?
It really depends on all of the other steering characteristics. But assuming you have a fat bike, I imagine that the high leverage of your 900mm bar and the neutral steering of a short stem is pretty ideal on a bike with slow steering (ie. high trail) and lots of pneumatic trail too (3-5" tyres at low pressure).
@@Cyclingabout nice! i ride 2.5" tires and my bike has about 7cm of trail. Do you know if more "soft" trail acts differently than the same overall trail with smaller tires?
Becuase of my body size, I have had to run short/0 stems on multiple frames. Took me a long time to realized this is why they handle like that.
Basically if the reach is long for you you could ride a shorter stem without noticing too much, and if the reach is just right or shorter don't put a shorter stem on it bcz you'll notice it more? Thanks!
Thanks so much for this. I need to order a fat bike for my fast-growing daughter (currently growing about 1cm / 4 months!) and I therefore ordered it a little big -- about as big as would fit her mom. That means I need to put a shorter stem on it to reduce the reach, and I was worried about the steering effect. Given that it's fat tire and wide bars, my guess is it will not be an issue at all, given the low single-digit percentage change you show for flat bars shortened to 0cm stem. Here, we'd just be going from 8cm to 3.5 cm.
Stem Extender bike good?
I have a new 2022 GIANT Escape 2 Disc. I had terrible neck and shoulder pain after riding for 2 hors...would a short stem help in any way ? Thanks.
Excellent research and analysis, great topic. 👍
Without a doubt a shorter stem decreases or shortens the steering arc from the steering axis. The width of the handlebar also affects the steering axis. And absolutely effects the twitchiness, based on my own experiments with many different size length stems.
After 26 years of riding on two wheels, I know what steering input and steering output feels like, especially at higher speeds.
The fact that a company is trying to sell something, and states there is no difference in twitchiness utilizing a zero millimeter stem... it's just silly. Perhaps they do not understand physics and are seemingly nothing but a bunch of talking heads. 😂🤦🏻♂️
I’m never disappointed by your videos 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 excellent explanation even a dumb like me could understand, big fan of your work and your energy 🙏🏾
Thanks Juan!
Nice video, can you do something similar about trail and head tube angle?
For sure! 👍🏻
glad to check in here for coverage of those nagging questions I often contemplate during long rides!!
Great vid. Can you do a video on why I have toe overlap on my gravel bike, but not on my road bike (and my toes are really far away from the front tire on my MTB). Thought gravel bikes were supposed to be longer and slacker than road bikes. I'm not the only one of my riding friends who have noticed this. Does it have to do with bottom bracket height?
It's likely just the larger overall wheel diameter with a fatter tyre. It sounds like the slightly longer frame reach is simply not keeping up with the growing wheel size!
Love your videos! Amazing Quality Content! What do you think is the slackest HTA you would go for that is best for steep techincal climbs but also good for long fast road rides? Thanks Alee!
Cheers! The slackest I could get used to for fast road rides is probably 69 degrees. After that, you need a pretty big rake/offset to keep the wheel flop in check.
Great video! which 0 degree stems do you recommend? I have the surly moloko and looking for a more upright ride. Thanks
Analog cycles
What is the bike with the orange front rack into aero bars with the custom bag? It's the one for the drop bar width illustration. Love this idea and would like to know who that frame builder is. Cheers
It's by Victoire Cycles.
Fantastic video. Do you have a video that is about overall bike ergonomics? Looking for something perhaps that would explain seat height/reach/stem height or length. No matter how much I tweak my seat and stem/bars, I still get numb hands. Thanks
I don't have anything about ergonomics, but I'll think about what I could possibly do on the topic. Hand numbness is a hard one because there are so many factors in play. Do you use gel padded gloves? I find they are excellent at both damping vibrations and absorbing bigger hits, while conforming to whatever handlebar shape you're grabbing on to. I use the Roeckl Bellavista.
@@Cyclingabout I don't. I have the Giro DND gloves and use Ergon GE1 (thin) grips. I was told that it's because my bars need to be higher, but when i do raise the bar height, I feel a bit too high up even though my hands feel less numb.
@@thefeelz5845 I've had a lot of success with Ergon GP1 grips (GC1 if you have a sweptback bar like me) in combination with gel gloves. Definitely worth a shot!
what are those lights at 6:58? Thanks!!!
Love it dude!
Hi Alex, great video! I just want to clarify that you recommend minimum 75mm stems for bikepacking handlebars with back sweep? I am changing from Velo Orange Crazy bars to the Soma Dream Riser on my Surly ECR, and want to also confirm that you recommend that your hands are always in front of the steering arc no matter what the handlebar is.
I just found out that I’m a bike nerd. Subscribed.
Does twitchiness have something to do with the fact that the new gravel bike I bought is impossible to ride hands free?
So If I shorten my stem from 90 to 40mm, but changed my drop bars from 380mm to 420mm, what's the formula for "twitchiness"?
When trying to keep the reach similar or even try make it feel longer, how does using a wider handlebar and shorter stem work? (e.g. 760mm handlebar + 60mm stem change to 800mm handlebar + 35mm stem)
This depends on the distance from your saddle-to-steerer tube. For an average height rider using a flat bar, 10mm off the stem is probably worth around 20mm in extra handlebar width. But this changes as the frame gets longer or shorter.
The problem is, when you change bar heigh you alter a bike's geometry too, so it's hard to say how 0mm feels over 30mm for instance.
You may change the centre of gravity and load on the front tyre, but it's not by much. This is because much of the weight is centred around your hips/legs so small adjustments to your hands don't really matter.
im confused on the swept bar situation. How does using a 100mm stem make a swept back bar twitchier if the minimum length needed to steer in the upper arc is 75mm? Wouldn't a 100mm stem put the steering axis 25 mm farther into the upper steering arc?
The 0mm stem puts your hands 75mm behind the steering axis, while the 100mm stem puts them 25mm in front. The result is shorter hand displacement numbers (twitchier) for the long stem because your hands are closer to the steering axis.
well, it's all fine, but what about vibrations that hit right into the bar form the steering tube and fork? I'm aware that stem isn't like long carbon seatpost, but certainly it has some absorbtion properties.
I assume this is a comment for my frame comfort video? As it says in the title, the video was specifically made for understanding frame comfort. I can look at other aspects of comfort (handlebars, stems, forks, grips) in other videos.
CYCLINGABOUT of course it's related to that video, I made an assumption that stem also helps with comfort. But maybe it's totally wrong. Just a digression, I'm not sure about making whole video just about it, though I think there're other things that helps with comfort you might look into.
Got you. I haven't seen any data, but I'd suggest there is almost zero vertical deflection in a stem. Lots more in the bars, fork and front tyre.
hey Ali, thanks for sharing you knowledge. curious what length stem you use with your denham bars?
Also, if they are used with a short stem, how steering in the lower half of the arc affects handling, especially at braking from speed and on technical descents. thanks
I use a 120mm stem, so my effective stem length is about 50mm.
A 75mm stem is about as short as you'd want to go with the Denham Bars for any off-road stuff.
Would the stem angle also have an impact? For example, a 30 degree positive stem vs 8 degree stem (assuming the length is the same)
Yes, the effective stem lengths I'm using here are different from the actual stem lengths! I probably should've mentioned that in my video.
Once a stem is on a bike, the positive degrees of a stem actually work out to be very close to the percentage you lose from its length.
Eg. A 100mm stem positive 20-degree stem is effectively approximately 80mm, and 100mm/30d is approximately 70mm.
You didn't define what 'twitchy' mean. Does it effect bike stability at all or just how much bike steers?
It's almost entirely about steering response.
Its something like riding a foldable bike, its sensitive handling,btw i just did reverse negative stem, seems its possible but need to relearn the steering.Shifted my cockpit backwards due to poorly designed frame.
Hmm. That was really interesting. I have now a 90 mm stem and bought a new handle bar - butterfly from Ergotech - instead of the straight one I had. I am aiming for a angle-adjustable stem with the same length so that I get a bit more upright position - trekking position from sport like. I thought that if I angle the stem 45 degrees then I have shortened the stem to 78 but I would have thought that did noting to the steering. The new handlebar is almost the same width as the old one and it has its opening forwards so a part of it is going to be in front of the steering axis. I hope I haven't made a stupid decision.
A 90mm, 45d stem works out at about 40-45mm horizontally when fitted to a bike. The best thing to do is to play around with the cockpit and see what works for you!
where can i get this stem
Analog Cycles
What about knee interference when standing and pedaling hard with a 0 stem?
It depends on how lengthy your top tube is. For a mountain bike frame with drop bars, that definitely won't be an issue.
Im interested in how they affect countersteering since longer stem helps switching weight
I am wondering what 11” version would cost
Anyone know what the bike at 1:35 is?
www.victoire-cycles.com/en/our-bikes/our-creations/victoire-concours-de-machines-2019.html
Does anyone have a link to the 0 mm stem? Are they the only ones that make one?
The only other stem I've seen is a vintage Azonic Zero stem. Here is the Discord stem: www.analogcycles.com/product/discord-components-creemee-stem/
good for short people with large bikes
Can anyone identify the stem at 7:10 ?
Discord Components W(Right) stem.
how about inward stem?
The same principles apply. If your handlebar swoops forward so you can put your hands in front of the steering axis, an inward stem is fine.
All made sense until you raised the swept back bars. You note that you want to be in the front area of the steering arc for self corrected steering but that 0mm stem is the best for less twitchiness. How can this be possible as the two seem counterintuitive. I ask because I have Jones h bars on my too big touring bike and I need to tighten the reach.
Run a piece of string from the middle of one grip across to the middle of the other. If the string runs in front of your headset top cap bolt, you can shorten your stem and still be able to steer in the upper half of the steering arc.
But keep in mind that lots of folks ride bikes that steer in the lower half of the steering arc - my video just discusses best-practice design.
@@Cyclingabout thank you. Yes I did something similar I just used a stick. I will have to see how the steering goes in the lower arc because I tend to get sore palms after 40 mins or so. Alternately I will need to step down a size in the frame. I have long legs but relatively short upper body. Love the vids btw
@@thomask837 To solve the sore palms issue, it might pay to make your cockpit taller, as you are likely placing too much weight on your palms (not enough core strength to hold the position). Also, check out the Ergon GC1 grips and Roeckl Bellavista gel gloves which will help create a larger, more neutral surface for your hands.
My neck approves this video
I'm sure this is all true. But, I have an old mountain bike with wide straight bars and a 12.5mm stem and its really twitchy as you call it. I hadn't noticed until I started cycling more and longer distances on it. Its so bad I can't really ever let go of the handlebars in the way I used to (occasionally) with my old drop bar racing bike (R.I.P) which had a much shorter stem.
I'm trying to imagine how I can apply what I saw here to my under steering recumbent bike.
I think very little is relevant! 😂 The steering width principles will apply though, although some recumbents use linkage steering, so maybe it doesn't??
@@Cyclingabout Yeah... Mine has indirect steering. I guess the math behind it would be hellish! LoL! 🤣
many more people need to watch such vids coz they may get into cycling and not like it coz of such things so if they learn this b4 buying a bike they will have more fun thereby getting more and more people into cycling
I believe that is a good thing ? right?
oh men, im kinda follow you, it is possible upload some spa subs for this specially technic video?
Guys from Chotic say that at 65° HTA anything below 35mm is too twitchy.
Is it me or was there a subtle Babylon 5 reference there in the form of a Shadow ship? Pretty sure I saw a Pokéball too.
You can definitely find very random references in my videos. 😂
Wow man! This goes up to 11! Great nearding! I love it! But think I'll stick to my random stem that more or less sutes me!
Good to hear the random stem is working well. 🤘🏼
Alee Denham u so schmart
I used one of these in China and they are twitchy as hell. I thought it was my problem. I use a 120 mm stem right now.
Nice to know.
I wonder why bike reviewers in the Mainstream Cycling Media never mention that the slow or twitchy steering of a bike they are reviewing can be changed with a different set of bars and a different stem?
Just what i wanna know
Interesting info . You do however seem to miss pointing out that zero length stem will make the front end wander a lot when climbing steep inclines due to body weight distribution unless you lean right over the front end. This will be particularly noticeable if running the bars quite high...but I'm sure you know that. Maybe I missed you mentioning it but it seems important to me.
That's a fair point! This video was made to address steering speed, but you're right, it will also affect the overall ride dynamics of your bike too.
So many accessories depend on the fact that you have a mounting point there. I can't sacrifice that place.
Hi, I am Todd and I am a bike nerd too ....................
Good to hear!
Cool.