Cardassian Fleet Doctrine & Organisation
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 16 июн 2021
- Today I delve into the Doctrine and Organisation of the Cardassian Fleet during the Dominion war, including the various formations present within a fleet, as well as the underpinning doctrine which shapes how the cardassians fight.
Support the channel: www.buymeacoffee.com/6DRwAu4
paypal.me/VenomGeekMedia
Join the Community: / 222022375544080
special thanks to Ryselle 3D for the Cardassian Renders: www.deviantart.com/ryselle-3d... 
Развлечения
You got me wanting to break out my Attack Wing DS9, Galors, and Bug Ships. Play time...
There is a big community who play it on Table top simulator.
LONG LIVE THE UNION! I personally love Cardassian designs; from Terok Nor (Nor type stations) to the Galor and Keldon Classes. Bajorian designs are also nice, I like that look too. I think DS9 did a great job of getting us a look at the culture and designs of both - not to mention the details in the studio for making such a complete work, getting all the design elements to each and fully fleshing them out and keeping consistency, so much so that projects like Star Trek Armada III could extrapolate these elements to make convincingly realistic ships to the race. This just offers so much in the way of the idea of world building and connections to a story.
Yeah they did such a good job of fleshing out the cardassians and the armada ships fit so naturally.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 They do. Though Sins of a Solar Empire is an older game, those mods are some of the best Star Trek games currently available. Star Trek Online is okay, but you don't have the options for empire building and fleet creation. I really wish there was a game for it. Same with Stargate.
I also appreciated the Cardassian esthetics for their ships and hand held weapons. Although what I thought was armour was just an oddly woven shirt for Cardassians. Or they ignore it as armour at certain times in the show.
"If the commanders do make mistakes, they'll be big ones and nobody will question them" - Because nobody will survive *TO* question them.
Yeah scapegoating would be a very common practice
Well can’t scapegoat is everyone is dead/ captured.
You have a good channel, and you are a good person.
This was indeed a well thought-out and intriguing video. The Cardassians in the expanded beta canon lore have quite a more detailed fleet structure than one may initially think given the limited amount of alpha canon detail. I am also curious about some of the Cardassian ships there for while most of them are familiar given your prior videos, some I've not seen before.
One thing I think you could have gone more into is the specifics of Cardassian naval and their Starfleet equals. From those in the video I would presume; Glinn=Lt., Gul=Capt., Senior Gul=Commodore, Grand Gul=Rear Adm., Jagul=Vice Adm., Legate=Adm. .
Beyond that I look forward to future instalments on your elucidation of the doctrine/organization of the other major factions.
so i'll just clarify that a senior gul isn't a rank more a status eg: Captain picard vs say a newly promoted captain. picard is clearly the superior from experience and in an action would be leading that squadron.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 ; Yeah, that honestly makes more sense.
Do one for the breen please
Oh this is fantastic. I absolutely love fleet doctrine/order of battle stuff like this, can’t wait for the other ones! I find it really interesting that the Cardis seem to integrate support ships like destroyers directly into even their most basic formations as a matter of course, rather than having separate units made up entirely of one ship type. Instead of being organized into different squadrons that act in support of one another, they really are tied at the hip. Really feeds back into that mentality of top-down authoritative command, as you said. Awesome stuff, and keep up the good work.
love your star trek stuff. i can feel the passion and work you put into it
Im excited man! This looks to be a great series.
This is one of your best videos to date.
Excellent video, can't wait for you to do videos on the klingon, Romulan, Dominion and Federation fleet doctrine and organisation!
It's on its way rest assured
I can't wait. DS9 never really did much with the Dominion ships other than the bug.
I really enjoy these videos. They fill out the Star Trek lore. From what I could see on DS9 it looked like the Cardassians only had two kinds of ships and fighting was just a jumbled mess.
yeah they really deserved to be better fleshed out.
Another really great video I really enjoy watching your videos
Since we're on the topic of Cardassians, I have always wondered why they didn't have cloaking tech any sooner than they did in STO during the Gamma Quadrant arc.
There are at least two opportunities they had to take apart cloaking devices from the two races that were famous for using them:
First is during 'The Die is Cast' when several Keldons were outfitted with Romulan cloaking devices. I'm sure technicians snooped around it despite the Romulans probably having their own guards posing as engineers around it. I have to wonder why one of those Keldons didn't conveniently have engine issues, unable to join the rest of the fleet and needing time to repair their nacelles, drive coils, or impulse units and giving time to covertly inspect the device.
Second is when Dukat commandeered a B'rel and operated it during the Klingon/Cardassian war, and moved off to join the Dominion fleet upon their initial arrival, returning the B'rel to Cardassia Prime. I have absolutely no idea - outside of the Dominion's Vorta overseers discouraging any new development in Cardassian shipbuilding in favor of more Dominion vessels and the already proven Galor cruisers and Keldon subclasses. Again, I have a hard time believing that *not one* Cardassian engineer took it upon his or herself to dissect the Klingon cloaking device.
Later on around the early 2400s we learn that the Cardassians have indeed developed cloaking technology, but had to engineer it themselves as no other race would give it to them. So why do you think, if we go by STO's version of history, it took so long for them to develop the tech that would have made the Galor a much more effective raiding/strike ship during the Dominion war?
I think cloaking technology, aside from being a fairly advanced technology especially if you are making a cloak that will stand up to modern sensors and the Cardassians were shown as being consistently behind most of the other major powers in the Alpha Quadrant.
It is also worth noting that Cloaks probably require special or rare materials that the Cardassians lacked. Lack of resources was another major issue for the Cardassisns all through their history as a space fairing people.
Third, It probably just didn't fit into Cardassian fleet doctrine, since the kind of tactics that a cloaking device necessitates, due to the disruption of long range sensors and communications, means putting far more trust and initiative into the hands of more junior officers, which as is discussed in this video, Cardassian fleet doctrine emphasises top down adherence to a rigid chain of command.
I think the Cardassians could have field cloaks widely during the Dominion War, when they were holding far greater territory and the resources from them, as well as the knowledge back engineered from the capture Bird of Prey, but they didn't, because it didn't fit with Cardassian fleet doctrine or Dominion War-Planning.
These are just the most logical explanations I can come up with, based on the information we are presented.
@@weldonwin I concur in general with your thoughts.
I posit that they played catch up due to their technical deficiencies and would have use cloaking tech at the strategic rather than tactical levels. Instead of trying to create a useful "full" cloak, they would start with a stealth field cloak to mask their strategic movements. You get close, you see them, but you can't just see that Order over at planet X from multiple lightyears away. This would let them concentrate forces for the kind of massed/attritional engagements that top down command styles favor.
@@timberwolf1575 That would fit with what we saw of the Hutet, which had systems to both mask its Warp Signature and to spoof its IFF Codes, in order to hide its movements. Such technology may have been prototyped on the Hutet and could have been rolled out across the fleet in time. This would be more Electronic Warfare than cloaking Tech.
That said, post Dominion War, with the vastly reduced size of the Cardassian fleet, true cloaking technology may be more attractive, since they can no longer field the large linear formations they previously used, forcing a radical change in fleet doctrine.
@@timberwolf1575 At least from my point of view Cardassians could challenge Federation during border war. Only because they did use quite unconventional and desperate hit and run tactics. I for example completely see them ramming. When Federation hands was tied, due to Policing operation model and quite old ships delegated to frontier area. For reminder Federation refused to actually aid Earth, blaming humans for not regulating region on the first place. And use first opportunity to sign the peace. Cardassins gain equal technology only thanks to outside help. But that was not until 2370's.
I would love to know how the neat looking Star Trek Online Cardassian ships would be organized.
Or just a ship chat on STO Cardassian ships in general - maybe just more ships from STO overall.
Well, just off the top of my head - the C.U.V. Tain is a dreadnought, implied by a mission in the Gamma arc to be a match for the Dominion War era J’H Battleships. Both the science dread and the cruisers launch ‘Yukwas’, which look very much like the Hidekis but could be drone ships - think about the Dreadnought missile, obviously the Cardassians know a thing or two about unmanned combat vessels.
So my thought is this - like the Dominion, they could use an initial line of small ships - several squadrons of the Yukwa unmanned frigates backed up by the larger escorts, acting like the J’H Bug ships to engage and attempt to isolate or create breaks in enemy formations. Behind that is a second battle line of cruisers and dreadnoughts, ready to batter divided enemy forces into submission.
I’d imagine the frigate and escort squadrons could also deploy from escorting flight deck cruisers and dreadnoughts to not only screen from rapid attack groups but also herd them into the effective range of the big dreadnoughts.
At least that’s what I think it could be
@@HarperStl That does remind that the Cardassians did field some of the most (or at least only ?) Unmanned Weapons within Star Trek.
VenomGeek, can you please do a ship chat on the Cardassian 'dreadnought' and the orbital weapons platform. I would like to hear how those thingies fit within your concept of Cardassians only trusting top people of their command structure. Having a unmanned weapon does seem to fit nicely with that.
@@ApsalusSigma Only ones I can think of off the top of my head outside of that drone ship the Romulans used in ENT, but not entirely 'unmanned' like the Dreadnought given that it *had* a pilot...
But the Dreadnought missile was far and away more advanced.
yep, loved it. I wish this had come out first in the series.
Interesting concept for organization and doctrine. I particularly like the use of Army terminology for several formations, like Troop and Division.
They probably have their origins in armoured and cavalry units.
I would love more of these
LOVES THESE VIDEOS!
Great Information
Personnel combined with signals intelligence would be a good way to help defeat the Cardassian Fleet. Find out who commands what your facing you'll know how they would react to certain situations, how they fight and how to counter them. It proves how the Maquis did so well against them.
Yeah knowing your enemy is crucial for planning a battle
Thanks great subject
Haven't seen the whole thing yet but it's already interesting
I love fleet doctine!
We need more starships that actually land on oceans to conduct surveys.
Such a design would see the banana like engineering hull of the Oberth class reinforced into becoming pontoon hulls.
The primary hull of the Oberth would sit on pylons fixed to the pontoons.
Could work for oceanic expositions might be very valuable for oxen world colonies
This is a great idea for a series.
I believe it's stated that the 11th Order lost all 500.000 members when the klingons conquered Septimus III. So I take that to mean that a Cardassian order, when you count all personnel(space combat units, ground combat units, logistical units, maintainance and repair units, command staff units, etc.) numbers 500.000.
Very nice. Can't wait for the Romulan Imperial Fleet.
yeah, i'm very curius about them, after all their ships rely on camuflage and tactics more than an overwhelming firepower or superior tecnology
@@guillermomartinez1752, the Romulans believe in economy of force. A single push can crack a mountain if done correctly. This enables the Romulan Fleet to punch above their weight, a necessity in the crowded Alpha and Beta Quadrants
@@enoughothis that is true but that also makes them kind of vulnerable after all they cannot win a prolonged war against the Other powers.
I must say that their fleet is quite formidable anyway
@@guillermomartinez1752, not that they would wish to, even if they could. They are true glass cannons. I, for one, find that much more interesting than a grinding match.
@@enoughothis well, without a doubt they are one if no the most interesting fleets in the alpha and beta cuadrant.
One thing that I find particulary interesting is that unlike their klingon or carsassian counterparts the officers and command of the romulan fleet are profesional, dedicated but above it all resoursfull and versatile.
They also field the d'deridex a ship I find beautifull and deadly (I shame we never saw them in action during the dominoon war)
Been waiting for my business partner to shut up already so I could enjoy this.... Lolol it’s true.
When I saw the video there was 420 likes.
So, I packed a nice bowl & lit it, then saluted as I clicked like.
I once wrote a long rant on how most everyone completely underestimates the Cardassians and their ships based on some misconceptions. Long story short, of all the powers after the Dominion War, Cardassia was actually left in pretty damn good shape. People may not believe it, but the reality is the Treaty of Bajor left the Union and its military intact. Far less of the War was fought on Union territory than the others, aside from Cardassia Prime. And the major Cardassian shortcoming, being decades behind the Federation in technology, was rectified completely by virtue of Dominion membership. The Union is overrun by advanced Dominion technology, all left behind by the terms of the treaty, for the Cardassians to make full use of. Their fleet also suffered the least in the Final battle. It may take years to rebuild Cardassia Prime, but with advanced Dominion manufacturing techniques and a mostly intact industrial base, they'll recover much faster having to only focus on rebuilding three systems (canon names three systems occupied or taken, or badly damaged: Chintaka, Septimus and Cardassia System and only then Cardassia Prime). The Galor Type IVs were already a handful, but with greater Dominion tech integration, the Galor V and Keldon IV are more than capable of holding the line until the next generation of hybrid Dominion/Cardassian ships can be built en masse that is possibly superior to any Klingon or Romulan ship and a peer of the next gen Starfleet ships.
Off topic request video. Maybe something for after you finish your dominion war series. I would love to see some numbers. Mainly for Federation but as many factions as you could. How many ships were active at start, how many at end? How many built during war and how many lost? Same for personnel. How many starfleet personnel were there? Civilian losses? And anything else you cared to come up with.
A 'cost of the dominion war' definitely.
I had a question in the videos you used the phrase dominion fleet group alpha , is that kind of like in ww2 with army groups 3 army or in this case fleets per group, in the dominion case around 600 ships . ? Approximately
Yes like army groups north center and south. So there's a lot of difference in how big they are.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 makes sense. Thanks
Been wandering this for a while, but how much is all this made up by you, and how much of it is "cannon". Either way, I'm enjoying it a lot!
given that only 3 of the ships are cannon. we can safely say this is largely head cannon.
Lov
Where would the Cardassian Cruiser from Star Trek Birth of the federation fall within the fleet? Would it be relegated to like a rear line Duty or more of a internal policing with non-military but it's militaristic police force use or would it have some sort of a reserve role in the fleet or would these be able to still function in the main Kardashian Fleet forces in some sort of supportive escort role war with the Kardashian Cruiser from Star Trek birth of the Federation be too old I asked about this Cruiser since several of the ships that are featured in the Kardashian lineup our ships that are seen in previous Star Trek games
Where are you getting all the ships from? From what I've watched on screen we see like... 3 classes of Cardassian ships.
Beta Canon ships
That fleet configuration at 5:53 with the 3 tornen carriers and the hutet battleship which one is that?
That like a heavy battle fleet or something
13th Order as it deployed at the battle of Tyra. but the Hutet alongside the carrier and assault lines is a separate element that would normally besiege isolated stations and fortifications.
Can you go over why DS9 being at such a conflict prone area was so undersupported for most of the series. We were lucky to see additonal federationships ships there during conflicts. Was the federation that low on ships? I would think the region would be heavily patrolled like the neutral zone.
I would think they would probably be on the peripheries and DS9 isn't literally on the front line (usually). Its also perhaps too small a station to support a large fleet all the time unlike say those large starbases. If anything gets through the lines its also pretty well defended itself.
Bajor was not federation territory or member. Reason why it was a conflict zone WORMHOLE. The only way anyone in the alpha/beta quadrant could primarily access the gamma quadrant and vice versa. A strategic focal point in a neutral territory.
Where did you get all the cardi ships from? I recognize the on screen ones and a couple others but a lot I've never seen before.
Lolol Venom has Cardi ships for days bro....
you can find them all right here: fasaststcs.com/index.php/thefleets/cardassian-fleet/
Where'd you get all this information on cardassian ships? Cause all the sources I look at are wrong
What about the organization of Starfleet and the Klingon Defence Force?
I have videos on that too. Check out my strategy and doctrine playlist.
So their doctrine isn't just to turn into flaming wreckage?
What about BREEN fleet doctrine?
Still working it out. But I definitely will cover it.
Where does the 864 meter hutet fit in?
there were never many. so they were never fully incorporated. but generally as command ships they'd hang back, joining with the artillery lines since it has a similar range. or the carrier or assault lines since it does carry quite a few auxiliary craft.
The order configuration is obscenely huge
not if you consider the numbers we are given in the show. and at any one time only a 1/3 of the orders total strength might be engaging the enemy.
So a cardassian troop formation is usually four hidekis
Anyone remember the game Star Fleet Command Orion Pirates?
I have a question that someone in this community might actually know the answer to.
During the occupation of bajor, how many and of what type of ships orbited bajor?
I was thinking at least a galor line.
it would vary depending on the level of resistance activity. but yeah at least 7+ ships as a local defense flotilla, +additional ships as needed. although for most of the occupation it wouldn't be galors, mostly Ekoors, Kulinors and Netels.
Opinion on dukat's rank?
starts as gul maybe Grand Gul, becomes a legate, gets demoted, becomes leader of the union but still calls himself gul (much more hands on.)
@@venomgeekmedia9886 strangly enough he is gul whil commanding the second order
So the best way to cripple a Cardasian fleet is to destroy the central command ship
There lines will collapse and become disorganized.
When that happens exploit it.
Continue to sow discourse.
RessurectedStarships has some rally interesting videos that over the various fleet doctrines. He also does some does some of SEXEIST ships in the community.
They are great. But focus more on small scale tactics. He's a real inspiration.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 You should try and do a partnership!
@@JeanLucCaptain i'd love to. send him the Ekoor, let him put it through its paces in an animation but he seems to be AWOL right now :(
It's in videos like these that we see why only mentioning three ranks for officers on screen is not a good idea.
This sounds very much like the structure of the Japanese during the WW2.
I wish real DS9 would come back. I’d rather watch these episodes rather than the new trek.
Is Battle Space a game or simulator?
no its my series
@@venomgeekmedia9886 thought you were using a special program for the graphics. Like how some use Total War for the explanation of tactics.
Lets talk CARDASSIAN DOCTRINE with DAMAR & his KANAR
Why does every faction have carriers? I've never understood it. The humans have a rich naval tradition that would give the federation an edge. Just because we understand our world navies doesn't mean that aliens would follow the same example.
Its pretty likely that any planet that has oceans, at some point the people of that world will have fought each other on those oceans and that most races who fight one another long enough, will come across the idea of the aircraft carrier.
convergent evolution though not everyone uses "pure" carriers like the Tornen, federation carriers are generally retrofits. and other races rely on their mainline cruisers to carry fighters.
Just a word of caution as you discus into tactics.
"He is intelligent, but not experienced, His pattern indicates 2-dimensional thinking," -- Spock, "Wrath of Khan"
😉
You do not form a "line"; you form a plane, wall or a front. You do not encircle; you englobe. It does seriously complicates ones thinking. I guess that is why they always play 3D-Chess. LOL
Very true but if I said form plane people might not know what I mean.
@@venomgeekmedia9886
In most other matters, that is probably true. I think fans of Star Trek are different in this regards. LOL
Wow, never realized even with your videos how -bad- Cardassian officers were. Even with multiple decades and plenty of combat experience how little capability lower officers had. And how much that it limited their doctrine and forced them to operate around it. Apparently their command culture decided that it was simpler to make this combat doctrine rather than putting more effort into increasing training for officers to promote quality.
And would you have estimates of what you consider Cardassian fleet numbers at any point or that a bit beyond what you can really have an idea on?
@@Wedgekree i believe they would have 3,570 starships
2 Hutet Class Battleships
900× Galor Class Heavy Cruisers
1,340× Hideki Class Attack Ships
180× Brinok Class Torpedo Cruisers
240× Vasad Class Lance Cruisers
120× Keldon Class Assault Carriers
160× Ekoor Light Cruisers
90× Tornen Class Carriers
120× Raisilak Class Light Cruisers
180× Lakat Class Light Cruisers
240× Kulinor Class Heavy Cruisers
That's some rather good evaluation and makes sense for a strong regional power but not amongst the largest fleets in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants. Thanks!
good estimate. what out of interest was the basis for your numbers?
also i would call the Vasad and Rasilak destroyers. and the Lakat and kulinor as frigates. i know the FASA page lists most a light cruisers but there are other more accurate terms.
Blame the writers for making an awesome race stupid af
Can you do a fleet organization of mixed fleets of the late dominion forces ? (Cardassians+dominion+breen)
And do another mixed fleet organization of the allied forces? (Romulans+federation+klingons)
It seems like they adjusted the fleet compositions and tactics that would differ than from just single race fleets.