263. USA vs England: The 200-Year Rivalry

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  • Опубликовано: 4 дек 2024

Комментарии • 95

  • @Monty_Jackson
    @Monty_Jackson 2 года назад +10

    That was great listening. Well done lads.

  • @JC-KeepSmiling
    @JC-KeepSmiling 2 года назад +7

    Wonderful. Interesting without taking itself too seriously, how I miss the days when you could do that in the world.

  • @gosiachaaban2484
    @gosiachaaban2484 Год назад +6

    Wonderful episode, thank you.

  • @joeking4206
    @joeking4206 9 месяцев назад +3

    I grew up in Bamber Bridge. The Battle of Bamber Bridge is well known and the people who live there ("Briggers") are proud of what their grandparents and great grandparents did. The pub where the fighting broke out is Ye Olde Hob Inn which a beautiful thatched building dating back to 1616 when it was a coaching house.

  • @extraflaky49
    @extraflaky49 2 года назад +7

    This was funny. Exceptionally funny!

  • @d.c.8828
    @d.c.8828 8 месяцев назад +11

    As a 30 year-old white American, I had no idea that the United States tried to force the British government to enforce U.S. segregation policy amongst soldiers both on bases and in public--how absolutely absurd!

    • @d.c.8828
      @d.c.8828 8 месяцев назад +3

      Though, of course, while the British Isles may not have been segregated, I do find it a bit peculiar that the British public would be so flabbergasted at such a racist policy being imposed domestically, what with the apartheid--segregation by a different name--being enforced in British external colonial territories....

    • @gentlebreeze6414
      @gentlebreeze6414 4 месяца назад +2

      @@d.c.8828 Think long and hard about that distinction and how it tallies with the historic experience of black US GI's. in the UK.

    • @lutherandross3165
      @lutherandross3165 3 месяца назад

      ⁠​⁠@@gentlebreeze6414 I’m sure if said black American GI’s knew about the Boer concentration camps this supposedly wonderful experience they had in England would basically mean nothing. The English can bury their atrocities in different countries & go on feigning disgust all they want. You don’t get points for offloading of your scumbaggery elsewhere.

    • @DanSam48
      @DanSam48 2 месяца назад

      Yeah I think this is all sort of a post hoc narrative imposed on events that just happened. The British populace, as T&D say are prejudice against the Americans already that they are racist. So the British people are already biased when they see the suppression of outbursts of violins from the other American servicemen.

    • @deelawrence4835
      @deelawrence4835 2 месяца назад

      @@gentlebreeze6414Can you elaborate on this?

  • @andrewcadman951
    @andrewcadman951 5 месяцев назад +4

    Apparently true story about Black American GIs in Northern Ireland.
    There was an advert for a 'Blacks' meeting - meaning the Protestant order of the Royal Black Preceptory. The Sir Nights of the Preceptory were stunned when at their Hall turned up many black American GIs.
    However after the initial suspicion they all got on famously and the black GIs used the Hall until they were posted elsewhere.

  • @michaelnorris2765
    @michaelnorris2765 7 месяцев назад +1

    Fantastic episode

  • @geoffreyparker5775
    @geoffreyparker5775 Месяц назад +1

    "A monstrous display of treason and ingratitude"
    Ingratitude I'll give you, but it's not treason if you win.

  • @ted356
    @ted356 9 месяцев назад +5

    Just so you know, most Americans still hold Dickens in extremely high regard, even today. In most public schools in the US, the only two sources of English prose that most students will be subject to, without fail, will be some Shakespeare and some Dickens.

    • @jaycuthbert245
      @jaycuthbert245 7 месяцев назад

      It's crazy how many people believe Shakespeare didn't actually exist lol

    • @cassiopeiathew7406
      @cassiopeiathew7406 3 месяца назад

      Shakespeare, Dickens AND Jane Austen

    • @mirrage42
      @mirrage42 3 месяца назад

      And Orwell and the Brontës.

    • @cassiopeiathew7406
      @cassiopeiathew7406 3 месяца назад +1

      @@mirrage42 yeah but Americans generally don’t realize Orwell wasn’t an American and they egregiously use his name and work out of proportion

  • @ontixe
    @ontixe 2 месяца назад +1

    I'm Canadian and we learned a lot about 1812 in elementary school history. We do say "we burned down the white house" rather than saying it was the Brits.

  • @kcsupermom51
    @kcsupermom51 Месяц назад

    How can I put this, the very reason I am listening to your PODcast on RUclips is because the thing that Britain has that US television does not have is creative, informative shows. You have amazing shows with great presenters such as Mary Beard, Lucy Worsley, Iain Stewart, Brian Cox, the British Museum's Curator Corner, especially Irving Finkle, the Time Team... I could go on and on. For whatever reason, we in the US are sadly lacking in intellectual fodder. US television is trite and uninspired. Thank you for adding to my cache of worthwhile watches.

  • @michaelandrewsalomonenewje4107
    @michaelandrewsalomonenewje4107 11 месяцев назад

    British Pop in USA: don’t forget 58 through 60 somewhere a young man Laurie, London had a big hit record with the song “he’s got the whole world in his hands”.

  • @christophercarrier2902
    @christophercarrier2902 Месяц назад

    Fun fact: originally the plan was to add one star and one stripe for each new state, so the star spangled banner had 15 stars and 15 stripes. That’s when the stripes began to seem excessive, so they went back to 13 stripes and the non-original states only got a star.

  • @ricktasker8248
    @ricktasker8248 3 месяца назад +2

    The fundamental difference between the UK and its American offshoot is that the UK remains mired in a class-based society, where rank largely determines your destiny, whereas America has always been ruled by the middle class, who largely determine their own destiny.

    • @chrisdickens4268
      @chrisdickens4268 2 месяца назад +1

      Nah it's there it's America too, just not labelled as auch

    • @smokingbrush2498
      @smokingbrush2498 2 месяца назад

      @@chrisdickens4268 correct. They just finesse the structure a little more 'elegantly'...

  • @bilinguru
    @bilinguru 10 месяцев назад +1

    The contempt is not subconscious.

  • @salex5412
    @salex5412 9 месяцев назад +3

    Great episode.
    Regarding the rivalry: one could also present a case that the United States and Great Britain, like many republics, ancient and modern, battled to be the top dog in terms of Freedom. After the Revolution the US considered itself the great success story of Republics and Freedom, having knocked out Great Britain from the top spot after GB had mismanaged things so badly in the 1760s and 70s. And the French Republic had utterly failed in its revolution and bloody Terror.
    But things changed when Great Britain went and one-upped America and abolished slavery in 1834. Suddenly it had taken the mantle of Freedom back. This only fueled American competitiveness especially with the abolitionist movements. (One can also argue the GB abolition helped further solidify the growing division between North and South because GB abolition was only three years after the Nat Turner Rebellion of 1831 which fueled the pro-slavery arguments in the South.)
    Only after the US Civil War and the abolition of slavery did Americans feel they were top dog again...and thought it was time to lecture Great Britain again on its freedom-less colonial empire.
    Incidentally a competitiveness between Republics was also contained in Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. Lincoln deliberately took back the Declaration of Independence from the South which had referenced the Declaration multiple times in its secession declarations. Lincoln couldn't let that stand.
    This competitiveness among "Republics" can be more recently illustrated when we Americans especially during the Cold War were palpably aware of the criticisms by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics that continually called out US shortcomings and hypocrisies especially regarding Jim Crow laws and segregation. Of course the Soviets collapse the world now knows how the Soviet claims relative to their own totalitarian system were full of bunk. Vindication once again in the eyes of Americans.

    • @smokingbrush2498
      @smokingbrush2498 2 месяца назад

      Continued interference in South America and unquestioning support for a state which refuses to acknowledge internationally designated boundaries means that the US is again [with a supine Britain] occupying the moral low ground.

  • @kambrose1549
    @kambrose1549 5 месяцев назад

    Very moving!

  • @smokingbrush2498
    @smokingbrush2498 2 месяца назад

    For an illuminating alternative assessment of Lincoln from outside 'the Lincoln Industry', take a look at "Forced into Glory' by Lerone Bennett Jr. Lincoln is forensically trialed, and the leading prosecution witnesses are Lincoln's own recorded words. persuasive.

  • @suejones4013
    @suejones4013 Год назад

    That was really good!

  • @pauljohansen8043
    @pauljohansen8043 7 дней назад

    While GB was devastated by WW2, the USA was untouched other than a relatively low number of casualties. Plus the war, to be honest, ended the Great Depression.

  • @brianwilliams1281
    @brianwilliams1281 10 месяцев назад +1

    As a listener from Ohio. Dickons isn't wrong.

  • @stewartdowbiggin2337
    @stewartdowbiggin2337 4 месяца назад +2

    The "Lawrence River?" where the hell is that? If you weren't saying it in such a palmy British accent it, a good Canadian boy would've been offended.

  • @eadeshogue6702
    @eadeshogue6702 9 месяцев назад +3

    I thoroughly enjoy your programs, however I find your story about Black GIs kissing the ground in front of a Wilberforce monument incredible! How can you fall for that nonsense? On the other hand, those stories about the Army’s mistreatment of Black soldiers are certainly true. A quick family story. My first cousin was a young American Army officer trapped with his company of black gas truck drivers trapped on a snow bound road during the battle of the Bulge . He told me that the sounds of heavy fighting were everywhere and expected to be attacked by German troops at anytime. Here is the outrageous part. The Army did not arm my cousin’s truck drivers. The cousin had an Army carbine and his Sargent had a Thompson sub-machine gun. The black troops were unarmed! Luckily the unit survived without being attacked. I can only imagine what would have happened if this unit had been overrun by the enemy. My cousin complained to his superiors about this outrageous policy to no avail. On a good note, my kinsman had nothing but praise for the English people and tommies in particular.
    Keep up the wonderful programs!

    • @michaellear6904
      @michaellear6904 6 месяцев назад

      What an astounding story of the appalling reality endured by African Americans in the field during WWII.
      I strongly suspect not arming Black GIs was borne as much of a guilty conscience for centuries of enslavement and emisseration compounded by the perception that Black GIs would make inferior soldiers. There seems to be no end to the tragic ramifications of racism.

  • @jamesbmcauley
    @jamesbmcauley 9 месяцев назад

    I noticed that in your discussion of the battle of new Orleans you did not mention that the British nullification of the Louisiana Purchase at the end of the napoleonic wars was actually one of the main instigation that brought the Frontier Men into the war of 1812, and that the wording of the peace treaty the US and the British signed used language that would have handed the entire Louisiana Purchase over to the British had the secretive mission to take New Orleans succeeded. That failure coupled with the US's disastrous campaigns into Canada typified by the slaughter at Lundy's Lane and the Failure of the landings at Brooklyn Heights by a young Winfield Scott are why the US and UK stopped wrestling over power in the western Atlantic and finally started to act in support of one another in the far east by the 1850s

    • @salex5412
      @salex5412 9 месяцев назад

      Very interesting. Where in the Treaty of Ghent do you find the nullification. And where can I read more about this?

  • @johnlafontaine4003
    @johnlafontaine4003 7 месяцев назад +2

    my fav podcast…with the exception of this episode. Billed as a discussion of the US-England relationship, it was rather a tedious review of all the things negative about the American history and culture. A rare unbalanced take by this usually excellent show.

    • @Time_Is_Left
      @Time_Is_Left 2 месяца назад +1

      Zero self awareness 😂

  • @salex5412
    @salex5412 9 месяцев назад

    Regarding the Beatles, Tom Holland's argument that the Beatles and England helped transport Americans away from the tragedy of Kennedy's assassination seems very valid. The genius Beach Boys had already released Surfin' Safari in 1962 and Surfin' USA in early 1963. And yet the Beatles eclipsed them.
    If you had asked someone in 1961 which group was more likely to replace Elvis and be more popular in 1964: Five talented mostly blonde-haired blue eyed southern Californians or Four talented English musicians from Liverpool with odd haircuts, my guess is the poll would have given it to the Californians.
    One might also argue that Monty Python which first aired in the US in the summer of 1974 helped provide therapy to young Americans for national trauma, this time with Watergate and the loss of Vietnam.
    Dominic Sandbrook also makes an excellent point about Americans embracing British culture after giving up the Empire. Perhaps Americans viewed the British as noble for giving up their Empire after winning WW2 just as the British viewed George Washington as noble for giving up the presidency when he could have easily won a third term.

  • @gregmerk427
    @gregmerk427 Год назад

    From what I’ve heard, it was too rainy & windy to fly the huge Star Spangled Banner, the day FSK saw it. It was actually a smaller flag that he saw that day.

    • @pauljohansen8043
      @pauljohansen8043 7 дней назад

      I believe you may have confused this with the flag raised on Iwo Jima during WW2…

  • @shindogcity8536
    @shindogcity8536 Месяц назад +2

    A little rough as a Yank to hear the emphasis on American white racism in England during WWII. Firstly, black & white, same uniforms, we were all busy saving your asses, again. Secondly, IF America had as many remote colonies as you have had, we could have kept our odious, oppressive racism at as much arm's length as you have. Absolutely love the Brits, and admire so much about your history and culture, but your finger pointing was hard to take.

  • @purplepioneer5644
    @purplepioneer5644 9 месяцев назад

    My grandad said the same thing about Black GIs. They were the only ones he held in any regard during WW2.

    • @mirrage42
      @mirrage42 3 месяца назад +2

      Hmm, remember that scads of Americans, of all colors and creeds sacrificed their lives helping the UK.

  • @davidbanks4168
    @davidbanks4168 26 дней назад

    As a British expat in America who’s just become a citizen , I may be mildly conflicted listening to this….😄

  • @janoswimpffen7305
    @janoswimpffen7305 20 дней назад

    Well deserved critique of us Yanks. Some corrections / enhancements to your depiction of Beatlemania (which I lived through as a teenager): It was very much a post-JFK grief catharsis. It was very palpable at the time. While you are correct the US rock was at a post-Elvis / post-Buddy Holly / post Bill Haley trough, it was still the JFK loss of innocence that prevailed. My "Boomer" generation was unaware, except academically, of the British Empire and thus held no prejuidice accordingly. Our exposure to Brit culture heretofore mostly consisted of the dry wit found in films. While not having mass appeal it was well regarded in America. The landing of the Beatles exposed the masses to that very likable wit. Most Americans have no concept of the Birtish penchant for class distinctions. Moreover they cannot discern between different accents apart from extremes such as Cockney or Scottish. Americans typically perceive all British accents as haughty or of higher social standing than they are. Thus the Beatles were rarely perceived by Americans as middle class.

  • @harrybartok
    @harrybartok 9 месяцев назад

    I have UK and US citizenship. I would suggest some American books. The Americans were anti-British until Theodore Roosevelt. Lynne Olson's book 'Those Angry Days' claims that the British were unpopular in the US before WW2, apart from a few East Coast Anglophiles and on Wall Street. She claims that the US military blocked FDR from trying to help Britain, they preferred the Germans. Benn Steil's book 'The Battle of Bretton Woods' claims that one of FDR's war aims was to break up the British Empire. It was why Britain went bankrupt in 1947, it was planned by the US Treasury. 'Ike's Gamble' by Michael Doran writes about Suez from an American perspective. The problem was that Britain didn't realize it was now a vassal state. Eisenhower was punishing Britain and France. Nixon, who was Ike's VP believed this was a mistake. Some Americans believe it was why the UK didn't send troops to Vietnam.

  • @gpeterson2900
    @gpeterson2900 2 года назад +7

    Just wanted to say that in Canada everyone knows this story and will bring it up whenever Americans poke at Canadians.

    • @famebrightstudio451
      @famebrightstudio451 2 года назад +5

      yeah, but it wasn't Canadians that did it, so kind of lame (I'm Canadian)

    • @LCGrosch
      @LCGrosch 2 года назад

      Canadians speak of it wistfully. "Do you want to know why the White House is painted white? It used to be called the Presidential Mansion until the Brits burnt it in the war. It takes a lot of whitewash to cover up all that soot".

    • @Terinije
      @Terinije 2 года назад +2

      And Americans always laugh whenever Canadians try to take credit for that when the Brits were the ones that did it.

    • @chickenfishhybrid44
      @chickenfishhybrid44 Год назад +3

      Canadian inferiority complex towards Americans is real.

  • @dougc2568
    @dougc2568 2 года назад +1

    my mum was a schoolgirl during the war, and used to talk about their dismay at the treatment of black american soldiers by white americans.

  • @TimLeandro
    @TimLeandro 4 месяца назад +1

    Interesting. Facts can hide the truth. The Beatles. Yes, the music business is showbiz and the world of hype. But the Beatles wouldn't have conquered the world if they hadn't been great. All the same tricks were tried with the Monkees and didn't have the same effect. John and Paul are historically great on a level with Mozart.

  • @deelawrence4835
    @deelawrence4835 2 месяца назад

    Nice little jab at the Supreme Court’s obsession with originalism.

  • @chrrrles9363
    @chrrrles9363 Месяц назад

    General Cockburn is also the direct ancestor of the legendary leftist American journalist Alexander Cockburn of Village Voice and Counterpunch fame.

  • @scottishbombolini7794
    @scottishbombolini7794 2 года назад +3

    Sigh, England and Britain so interchangeable in a ever so Anglo centric way.

    • @user-bo1sl7gs9x
      @user-bo1sl7gs9x 2 года назад +5

      Scots need to listen to the early part of the podcast. "Obsessed with a greater power" sounds familiar 🤔

    • @scottishbombolini7794
      @scottishbombolini7794 2 года назад +2

      @@user-bo1sl7gs9x The EU?

  • @richardj2216
    @richardj2216 7 месяцев назад

    🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧

  • @carterIHodges
    @carterIHodges 9 месяцев назад

    🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

  • @vizveebee
    @vizveebee Год назад

    So glad I read about these in the Mail. Loving them, except, I am particularly sensitive at the insinuations towards Dickens. I first found myself getting annoyed at cynical lecturerers, implying Dickens was 'wordy' to earn more money. Really, what a ridiculous modern day assumption. His very novels show where his real heart was, and I doubt he was any more money-grubbing than the next writer!!

    • @yankeegonesouth4973
      @yankeegonesouth4973 Год назад

      Don't meet your idols. I really enjoy reading Dickens but have also read enough about him to know he was, like many great artists, a deeply flawed human being.

  • @lakinther7183
    @lakinther7183 2 года назад +2

    pog

  • @Supergforce777
    @Supergforce777 2 года назад +1

    AMERICA NUMBER 1!

  • @naomiseraphina9718
    @naomiseraphina9718 Месяц назад

    For better or for worse, we DO look up to you fellows, over here across the pond. Compared to the political and cultural shambles that so much of America has become in recent years, the UK has appeared to be something like a shining beacon of reason and decency... a beautiful city on a distant hill, as it were, to many of us living in the US. Of course, everything looks lovelier from a distance, and one could argue that America learned most of our dirty tricks and poor behavior from Britain, but it seems that where your people have largely progressed, our people seem to be spiraling through the same mistakes, over and over again.
    I hope to God we don't end up with infernal humiliation of another Trump presidency. If we do, get ready to watch the second civil war in the United States unfolding.
    Sorry for the somber note there, I really just meant to pay you a compliment, and then it went all askew somehow. Ah well. Britain and America certainly do have an interesting relationship. The fact that we listen to British podcasters when we want to feel that we're actually getting a decent rendition of history probably says more than any of my words could. I love your show, and I wish you all the best. --Naomi, US of A.

  • @binbadbailor8505
    @binbadbailor8505 2 года назад +1

    George Orwell was overrated.

  • @MexAm120902
    @MexAm120902 Год назад +2

    Lots of virtue signaling about race in this episode.

    • @brianlowe904
      @brianlowe904 10 месяцев назад +2

      Of course. I’m sure the first racial concentration camps and every Indian could tell you how great England was when it came to race relations.
      America was just in your face meanwhile Britain could be smug because most of their minorities lived outside of those areas. But when they did live together in actual numbers you got apartheid South Africa.

  • @slowraceultra
    @slowraceultra 2 года назад +2

    Thumbs down because of the racist part of the show. Absolutely disgraceful behaviour.

    • @petorian343
      @petorian343 2 года назад +12

      Why do I see you saying this on multiple shows of theirs? What are you talking about? What is your problem?

    • @famebrightstudio451
      @famebrightstudio451 2 года назад +4

      Thumbs up because of the racist part of the show. Keep it up! ;) And thumbs down on your comment good sir. We need more imaginary racism, not less.

    • @steventrotter4958
      @steventrotter4958 2 года назад +4

      What in the name of of Christ is going on in the comments of all their videos? There seems to always be some wack job

    • @extraflaky49
      @extraflaky49 2 года назад +5

      @@petorian343 RUclips has way of letting you report harassing behavior. I don't think these guys are racists never have been and never will be. It's too too bad that person is using the racism to get attention for him or herself. It's actually quite sad.

    • @effingright3045
      @effingright3045 2 года назад +1

      Folks. This is just a bot. They're everywhere. Programmed to call everyone and everything racist. Don't take these bot posts seriously.