That’s exactly why I always say Specialized isn’t high-end, they just sell regular bikes for high-end prices. Their carbon frames aren’t even true monocoque chassis. Vastly inferior to other true high-end brands
@@meteormedia7021 There are many advantages to bonding frame sections over monocoque moulding. The Colnago C68 is bonded, and that is about as high end as you get.
I actually own both the Venge Vias and the last Venge. The Vias feels solid and it sounds like if there is a LOT of material and the last Venge feels like it's fragile and limited on material. Both bikes are ultra stiff but I feel like the Vias will hold its integrity in the event of a crash unlike the last generation.
10:00 the bonded joints may be the strongest parts of the frame. Bonding techniques are even used at the wings of aircrafts. I see no problems there. 8:20 The thickness of a carbon part does not necessarily say something about the stability, stiffness or durability. This depends mostly on the used fibres, the alignment of them and the used bonding resin.
The thickness is very important for out of plane stiffness. For a thin shell element, bending stiffness ~ thickness^3. This stabilizes the shell against buckling. The total range of fibre modulus is about 3x between sm and uhm.
Specialized Frames production in China, S-Work production in Taiwan (Merida). Cervelo production in China on TopTupe Composit in Shenzhen, where Elves is also made ;-) Original self works is De Rosa in Italy. All ohter Carbon-Frame works in China or Taiwan.
@@JourdainColeman your dissection series gives any cycling enthusiast a very valuable insight before we invest our money to any of these bicycles brands. Thank you! 👍👌
I'm a little concerned about a steel cable traveling through a carbon fiber routing tube like that. Wouldn't it just saw away the carbon until it failed?
In the future, try sanding the carbon carefully at a shallow angle. This allows you to see thd layer lines and orientations. With some attention you can reverse engineer the whole layup schedule of the bike.
Is there a video where you describe your findings of the different frames you cut in half? E.g., which brand makes the best carbon frames for the money you invest?
@jourdain, I would like to see a cut up of a low end carbon frame from a big name brand. That is the kind of bike I have. I want to judge the quality of a low end frame within brands
Not if you read some of the comments online. Some poor folks genuinely believe that their cheap frames are of the same quality as those costing in order of magnitudes more.
Maybe someone dont know this: many well-known brand carbon fiber frame are made in China, include Specialized, Trek,Cannondale,etc. in fact. there's a company called BATTLE in China provision this services for almost half of the topest bicycle brand of the world. so.these two frame in the video maybe came from the same workshop.
I’m enjoying the bike so far ruclips.net/user/postUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA My only real complaints are the brakes and the pedals. I feel like a bike designed for bigger people should have much larger pedals and more heavy duty brakes. I’ve only gotten two really good rides out of it, minimal downhill action, and the brakes feel like they’re already going out. A larger person has more momentum, so I think this wasn’t thought through very well. Also, I wear size 13-14 wide shoes. My feet cramp up on these pedals that are clearly made for smaller feet. Since I’m not a pro rider (and I don’t think many are who purchase this bike) I don’t think that the straps on the pedal are necessary at all. None of this takes away from the enjoyment I get from riding, however. I’ll just head to a bike shop to improve on a few things.
You won’t get an oscilloscope (3:45) down your bike frame, even to satisfy one’s girlfriend. Presumably the Rob the expert meant an endoscope 😉. To be honest, I’m not sure there is really any value in doing all this - your conclusion that one is stiffer than the other is very ‘Y9 Tech’ (as you put it) - the stiffer one has about twice as much carbon in it so obviously it’s stiffer!
@@JourdainColeman I built my vias over lock down S works version to and Lovz it bit of a mission to get all the parts but it now complete an well happy with it! Mental fast , climbs great and looks absolutely awesome !
@@JohnDough-yr2zt Specialized stopped selling sl7 now and made the new tarmac which is a one bike fits all , just think there's a place for an aero bike aswel.
Doesn’t matter whether it is high end or cheap Chinese brand, if they are mass produced, highly likely made in China. The process of carbon fibre is toxic, it cost a lot if produced in the country other than China, India, etc. (they less concern about environment and less labor cost. That means, the manufacturing qualities are similar. Even more, is is possible they are done done by the same production line and even same labor. The only difference is cost down, using less material, less quality control, no continuous improvement plan, and spend less time on reducing error rate. That’s why cheap carbon fibre frame is cheap (and doesn’t care about copyright, and Chimera designed form all other high end brand they made in production)
Not at all. Nowadays asian brand frames are good as western brand (western brand are made in asian btw 🤷🏻). I can guarantee brand from asia such Polygon (Indonesia), Pardus (China), Gusto (Taiwan) are on par to big brand. A rider race in national race using crap usd400 china cheap frameset and won. An aussie rider won national race by putting a block of gopro under the stem directly destroy all aero benefit from the frame. In usa a rider race won against pro rider in crit race by using new spesh allez sprint + winspace hyper wheels. Carbon aero bike & wheels already reach its pinnacle.
You've made claims of manual modifications post manufacturing, if this is true where's the proof? Hard to believe post modifications are made after the layup is complete.
Manual in this case means: they designed the whole layup process, but test riders found some areas to be lacking stiffness, so they reinforced it with these small strips of carbon you can see on the inside. This is a temporary solution until they go for a V2.0 layup in the factory. At that point they'd change some of the layers/weave carbon used. But for now they just glue some extra sheets to the inside, which does the same thing but is probs a bit heavier/ less tidy. But more economically effective than delaying/halting production.
As Elon Musk would say. Add up the cost of parts. Plus expenses In a bike frame sheets of carbon. Let's say 2 square meters. €100.00 Now resin let's say 2 liters. € 50.00 Paint ½ litre: € 50.00 Sticker: € 100.00 Machinery per frame: € 100.00 Labour € 200.00 Marketing per frame € 500.00 Cost maybe 1,000.00 Profit 100% = 2,000 Shop mark up 100% = 4,000
@@mjf1975 It does not matter... But in terms of reliability and durability the carbon frames are for SURE rip off.. At least for us the normal cyclists, that want something high end, but dont have tons of money to burn, when some crap happens... But i will give my Canyon Exceed CF SL 8.0 frame a try, if it holds up i may buy carbon frame in the future again, otherwise allow and call it a day... But as i drive mostly in the city, and some lighter mountain, i think the carbon frame should last... Still i think in terms of durability and cost, high end allow, will get close to carbon frame weight, but it will be 10 times more durable.. That ofc is mostly for MTB, for road bikes, they dont have other option then go for carbon frame, since allow will slow them much down... Guess enduro and DH riders are way better, since they dont care for overall bike weight... But we hardtail and mostly road/ gravel are more screwed, since we look for speed...
Good sir what is your background because it seems you're providing a lot of misleading technical information and presenting it as fact. Thickness of sections and bonding are not indicative of quality or "efficiency".
I've got a mate who has had almost 3 months delay (4 different instances) on his repair at Carbon Bike Repairs. Perhaps Rob needs to spend a little time on his core business and not on the media exposure? By the way, loving the content. Bolding cutting what no cyclist dares to cut!
@@mjf1975 If you see other videos, like for example "expert mechanics install ltwoo groupset" you can see "faulty???" text on the thumbnail, this is called clickbait, it has nothing to do with video by itself but gives incorrect and yellow press first impression. And beside this, almost all other videos comes with overwhelmly surprised face, which is very similar to children annoying youtube shows thumbnails
@@froust Well maybe you should put your clickbait comment on an actual clickbait video. This isn't one As for the thumbnail - purely subjective. I don't pay that much attention to them Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the videos are perfect (I'd personally prefer less 'Jourdain talking to camera' and more focus on the actual subject) but that's just me. Each to their own
cute but generally worthless. from your cross sections and silly wiggling tests you have no insight into the laminate schedules, grades and weaves of fibers or resins used, much less any engineering analysis done in the designs. but i will agree taking a diamond wheel to some carbon laminate for a little destruction gotta be fun.
The bond mark at 7:56 is where the bits are glued together, they are typically made in sections.
That’s exactly why I always say Specialized isn’t high-end, they just sell regular bikes for high-end prices. Their carbon frames aren’t even true monocoque chassis. Vastly inferior to other true high-end brands
@@meteormedia7021 There are many advantages to bonding frame sections over monocoque moulding. The Colnago C68 is bonded, and that is about as high end as you get.
I think we need a Winspace cut
I actually own both the Venge Vias and the last Venge. The Vias feels solid and it sounds like if there is a LOT of material and the last Venge feels like it's fragile and limited on material. Both bikes are ultra stiff but I feel like the Vias will hold its integrity in the event of a crash unlike the last generation.
10:00 the bonded joints may be the strongest parts of the frame. Bonding techniques are even used at the wings of aircrafts. I see no problems there. 8:20 The thickness of a carbon part does not necessarily say something about the stability, stiffness or durability. This depends mostly on the used fibres, the alignment of them and the used bonding resin.
The thickness is very important for out of plane stiffness. For a thin shell element, bending stiffness ~ thickness^3. This stabilizes the shell against buckling. The total range of fibre modulus is about 3x between sm and uhm.
Excellent dissection. Hands up for aluminum, steel and titanium. Love your channel😃😉
i think this pull back and view into the veil is really great, thanks for sharing with us.
Great video as always J. Thank you for sharing
Specialized Frames production in China, S-Work production in Taiwan (Merida). Cervelo production in China on TopTupe Composit in Shenzhen, where Elves is also made ;-)
Original self works is De Rosa in Italy. All ohter Carbon-Frame works in China or Taiwan.
Good views. I'll stick with Columbus Spirit with a BSA, thank you.
Bravo. Excellent objective report and very insightful
Yup. You’re definitely the Rose Anvil of bicycles.
They used to teach frame building at metal shop, in affluent suburban public schools
Great videos mini series. 👍
Liked and subscribed!
Is there any chance to dissect either Cervelo, Trek, Colnago or maybe all 3 of them one at a time?
Glad you enjoyed the videos! If I can get my hands on them then I'll give them the chop 👍🏼
@@JourdainColeman your dissection series gives any cycling enthusiast a very valuable insight before we invest our money to any of these bicycles brands. Thank you! 👍👌
Really enjoyed your video mate. Subscribed!!
Awesome, thank you!
I'm a little concerned about a steel cable traveling through a carbon fiber routing tube like that. Wouldn't it just saw away the carbon until it failed?
I always thought the same but I'm sure many people use and still use these frames so it must work. 👍🏽
Graphene next! Then solid tyres and maybe something with magnets!
"The main function of a sprint bike is stiffness" Me remembering Jasper Philipsen changing bikes close to the end in Paris Roubaix.... riiiight!
Fantastic, I will sleep well knowing what's inside a carbon bike frame, PMSL
For that much money I would seriously consider a Time.
In the future, try sanding the carbon carefully at a shallow angle. This allows you to see thd layer lines and orientations. With some attention you can reverse engineer the whole layup schedule of the bike.
Thanks for the suggestion 👍🏽
bonded joints are fine they add a little weight but properly designed they won't be thd point of failure.
9:11 you're saying water made it delaminate?
I initially panicked and wanted to cry then I realised it was a rd bike and I instantly no longer cared
yeah my monster gravel carbon frame weights almost twice the venge which is reassuring after seeing parts so thin in this video 🥲 I panicked
You are doing a great job
What about a Sava Colorado, want to see a cross section of it
Is there a video where you describe your findings of the different frames you cut in half? E.g., which brand makes the best carbon frames for the money you invest?
Not at the moment as I haven't cut one from each brand to give a fair evaluation. I will do that in the future though 👍🏼
@@JourdainColeman great :) I am looking forward to that
@@julianengel492 Kona
@@iamcyberpunk68 They appear to not make road bike carbon frames. Or did I go to the wrong website?
@@julianengel492 I do not recall you specifying Road by car just recall you mentioning who made the best carbon
Better using a water mist, around the cutting disk to reduce invisible harmful dust, as well as the mask 😷👍 tip of the day 👊
He was doing that inside a vent hood, you can hear the fan running at a certain point in the video. I think that captured all the dust.
@jourdain, I would like to see a cut up of a low end carbon frame from a big name brand. That is the kind of bike I have. I want to judge the quality of a low end frame within brands
Ouch, this was awesome but also hurt me a bit.
Rich mens hobby: Cutting carbon fiber frame 🤣 (joke!)
of course there is no comparison between the trifox and the specialized
Not if you read some of the comments online. Some poor folks genuinely believe that their cheap frames are of the same quality as those costing in order of magnitudes more.
@@slowcyclist4324 i am a poor person too, but i know very well what is what . i ride aluminium right now ...
Some youtubers are responsible for that
@@9118693223 which one?
All the angles
Maybe someone dont know this:
many well-known brand carbon fiber frame are made in China, include Specialized, Trek,Cannondale,etc.
in fact. there's a company called BATTLE in China provision this services for almost half of the topest bicycle brand of the world.
so.these two frame in the video maybe came from the same workshop.
I’m enjoying the bike so far ruclips.net/user/postUgkxMesz3KOGEmwmvyKQfLfrRSUXLFzfVHZA My only real complaints are the brakes and the pedals. I feel like a bike designed for bigger people should have much larger pedals and more heavy duty brakes. I’ve only gotten two really good rides out of it, minimal downhill action, and the brakes feel like they’re already going out. A larger person has more momentum, so I think this wasn’t thought through very well. Also, I wear size 13-14 wide shoes. My feet cramp up on these pedals that are clearly made for smaller feet. Since I’m not a pro rider (and I don’t think many are who purchase this bike) I don’t think that the straps on the pedal are necessary at all. None of this takes away from the enjoyment I get from riding, however. I’ll just head to a bike shop to improve on a few things.
You won’t get an oscilloscope (3:45) down your bike frame, even to satisfy one’s girlfriend. Presumably the Rob the expert meant an endoscope 😉. To be honest, I’m not sure there is really any value in doing all this - your conclusion that one is stiffer than the other is very ‘Y9 Tech’ (as you put it) - the stiffer one has about twice as much carbon in it so obviously it’s stiffer!
I love my venge bike
Rip vias 😢 ....Let hope for a reincarnation of a new Venge in near future 🙏
I know... sad times. I'd love to build one up!
@@JourdainColeman I built my vias over lock down S works version to and Lovz it bit of a mission to get all the parts but it now complete an well happy with it! Mental fast , climbs great and looks absolutely awesome !
There is. It’s called SL7.
@@JohnDough-yr2zt Specialized stopped selling sl7 now and made the new tarmac which is a one bike fits all , just think there's a place for an aero bike aswel.
CF dust is great for lungs
I was hoping to see him trying to ride it with missing chunks
haha
Buy yourself a diamond tile blade for the grinder, also a tungsten carbide hacksaw blade.
isn't it a health hazard to cut carbon fiber like that? i read somewhere it's 8x times more dangerous than asbestos..
Where did you read that?
Doesn’t matter whether it is high end or cheap Chinese brand, if they are mass produced, highly likely made in China. The process of carbon fibre is toxic, it cost a lot if produced in the country other than China, India, etc. (they less concern about environment and less labor cost.
That means, the manufacturing qualities are similar. Even more, is is possible they are done done by the same production line and even same labor. The only difference is cost down, using less material, less quality control, no continuous improvement plan, and spend less time on reducing error rate. That’s why cheap carbon fibre frame is cheap (and doesn’t care about copyright, and Chimera designed form all other high end brand they made in production)
7 repairs on the same frame? Doesn't seem too reliable tome...
With the same price I always prefer high-end 7000 aluminum bike frame rather than cheap carbon chinese
I htink I may do a high end Ali frame build soon so I have a direct comparison 👍🏽
@@JourdainColeman build or dissection?
It would be good to do both 🤔
kinda misleading comparing a climber frame from Canyon with an Aero frame from Specialized
Not misleading, as he points it out himself.
he points it out multiple times.. just nice to see that different frame uses demand different layups
Brands watching this:
📝📝📝📝
CUT A VINTAGE OCLV 120 TREK!!!!
Pls cut up a look 795
Cut twitter thunder china carbon frame mate
So basically, when it comes to frames, you get what you pay for.
Yes and no. Merida makes all of Specialized frames, so you can get the same quality for less by buying a Merida
@@andyg9991 It coming from the same factory doesnt guarantee the same refinement, QC etc etc
@@georgesj9536 Merida frames are well enough. Just that, they don't sell in US if I remember correctly.
Not at all
Not at all.
Nowadays asian brand frames are good as western brand (western brand are made in asian btw 🤷🏻).
I can guarantee brand from asia such Polygon (Indonesia), Pardus (China), Gusto (Taiwan) are on par to big brand.
A rider race in national race using crap usd400 china cheap frameset and won.
An aussie rider won national race by putting a block of gopro under the stem directly destroy all aero benefit from the frame.
In usa a rider race won against pro rider in crit race by using new spesh allez sprint + winspace hyper wheels.
Carbon aero bike & wheels already reach its pinnacle.
im not a fan of masks... but you need a mask for carbon cutting bruh
You’re not a fan even though you admit they work. Got it.
I thought you will find onion 😔
Is there no difference between a bike branded 3Specialized" and another branded "S-Works"?
S-Works is the higher end frame and it was made in the USA by hand back in the day but today it is not. I don't know where they are made nowadays.
Cutting a carcass in half is a butcher's job, not a surgeon's or doctor's of any kind. So, if anything at all, you're the bike butcher.
Savage!
You've made claims of manual modifications post manufacturing, if this is true where's the proof? Hard to believe post modifications are made after the layup is complete.
Manual in this case means: they designed the whole layup process, but test riders found some areas to be lacking stiffness, so they reinforced it with these small strips of carbon you can see on the inside. This is a temporary solution until they go for a V2.0 layup in the factory. At that point they'd change some of the layers/weave carbon used. But for now they just glue some extra sheets to the inside, which does the same thing but is probs a bit heavier/ less tidy. But more economically effective than delaying/halting production.
Carbon frames, one of the biggest scams/ripeoffs in any sport. Get a grip buyers.
explain?
As Elon Musk would say. Add up the cost of parts.
Plus expenses
In a bike frame sheets of carbon. Let's say 2 square meters. €100.00
Now resin let's say 2 liters.
€ 50.00
Paint ½ litre: € 50.00
Sticker: € 100.00
Machinery per frame: € 100.00
Labour € 200.00
Marketing per frame
€ 500.00
Cost maybe 1,000.00
Profit 100% = 2,000
Shop mark up 100% = 4,000
@@patrickmcclean4691 Oh I'd love to know where you've got these numbers from. Should be interesting
@@mjf1975 It does not matter... But in terms of reliability and durability the carbon frames are for SURE rip off.. At least for us the normal cyclists, that want something high end, but dont have tons of money to burn, when some crap happens... But i will give my Canyon Exceed CF SL 8.0 frame a try, if it holds up i may buy carbon frame in the future again, otherwise allow and call it a day... But as i drive mostly in the city, and some lighter mountain, i think the carbon frame should last...
Still i think in terms of durability and cost, high end allow, will get close to carbon frame weight, but it will be 10 times more durable.. That ofc is mostly for MTB, for road bikes, they dont have other option then go for carbon frame, since allow will slow them much down... Guess enduro and DH riders are way better, since they dont care for overall bike weight... But we hardtail and mostly road/ gravel are more screwed, since we look for speed...
Lol. Taking advise from the dude who single-handedly halved twitter’s worth in a quarter of the year? That’s really wise I’d say
Don't buy nonsense Carbon bikes, instead, get rid of your fat as* weight and train harder. Metal frame is the way to go !
Hopefully there is a mainstream resurgence of steel frames
But how can you test a frame without swearing and making a pen test before? The hair dressers union is very disappointed!
👏👏👏
Specialized bikes aren’t „high end“ lol. They’re just expensive. If you want high-end carbon construction, buy Santa Cruz.
Why not try a completely different "universe" and to look at TIME bikes? 😊
Good sir what is your background because it seems you're providing a lot of misleading technical information and presenting it as fact. Thickness of sections and bonding are not indicative of quality or "efficiency".
I've got a mate who has had almost 3 months delay (4 different instances) on his repair at Carbon Bike Repairs. Perhaps Rob needs to spend a little time on his core business and not on the media exposure? By the way, loving the content. Bolding cutting what no cyclist dares to cut!
Will your next video be all about your girlfriend's inner beauty?
Gimme real steel😂
You can have it.
No gloves mr brain
😢😢😢😢
I hope you where wearing a mask
😷
Jourdain, i really love your videos, but your clickbait thumbnails and title.. i don't think they are suitable for such a deep dive
videos.
I'm confused. It looked like he cut a frame in half and told us what he found
Where's the clickbait?
@@mjf1975 +++
@@mjf1975 If you see other videos, like for example "expert mechanics install ltwoo groupset" you can see "faulty???" text on the thumbnail, this is called clickbait, it has nothing to do with video by itself but gives incorrect and yellow press first impression. And beside this, almost all other videos comes with overwhelmly surprised face, which is very similar to children annoying youtube shows thumbnails
@@froust Well maybe you should put your clickbait comment on an actual clickbait video. This isn't one
As for the thumbnail - purely subjective. I don't pay that much attention to them
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the videos are perfect (I'd personally prefer less 'Jourdain talking to camera' and more focus on the actual subject) but that's just me. Each to their own
cute but generally worthless. from your cross sections and silly wiggling tests you have no insight into the laminate schedules, grades and weaves of fibers or resins used, much less any engineering analysis done in the designs. but i will agree taking a diamond wheel to some carbon laminate for a little destruction gotta be fun.