The Engine of the Dark Side? Daimler-Benz DB-600 series - Part 2
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- Опубликовано: 15 май 2024
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In the first part of this series, we discussed the advantages the DB 600 series had over its competitors: a superior supercharger drive coupling and a fuel injection system. Overall, the DB 600 series of engines were good engines in theory. However, had they not suffered from the issues we’re covering in today’s video they likely would have been even more fearsome. However, the fact was that between organizational issues, synthetic fuel problems, and the scarcity of strategic metals, the Daimler Benz 601 and 605 were in an uphill battle for most of the conflict. And all of these factors, in unison, along with their second-order effects, created a situation that effectively hamstrung all of the Luftwaffe’s fighters for years.
The more I learn about WW2 the more I'm amazed and impressed that the Germans lasted as long as they did with the many strategic and geographic issues they had to contend with. I think the myth in the anglosphere is that HItler built up this unbeatable, advanced, immense war machine to conquer the world. When the reality is that german war industry was barely figuring out how to even mass produce 1939 level technology with its materials and supply issues.
He had Pervitin 😂 ( meth) though🎉
That was the difference😂
And Thats just the tip of the iceberg
@@jakobquick6875 everybody had it though
News Flash, they didn't start the war. it was forced on them
shhhh you can't say that@@daveedesanta6318
These issues with the engines failing did cost the life of one of the most skilled pilots in the world, Hans-Joachim Marseille the 'Star of Africa' when his BF109-G2 suffered engine failure.
G'day,
That's too long a Bow to be drawing, for a cheap nostalgic Tearjerker of an assertion like that....
The ENGINE's having failed didn't kill Marseilles, so much as his own decision to continue flying behind the smoking overheating Engine until it lit up in a Fuel/Oil fed "Convection Runaway" style of an Engine Fire - thereby obliging himself to try bailing-out in the hell of a hurry, blinded by Smoke and trying to avoid being cooked by flames blowing back in his face... (and, remember that the Bf/Me-109's Cockpit Seat was built into the upper side of the Fueltank...).
Therefore, thus, and because - it was Marseilles who killed Marseilles, by bailing out too late, in too much of a last-moment panic...; and he fcuked it up, letting himself get belted on the head by the Tailplane as it went past him - and then while unconscious he was unable to pull his Ripcord, so he was only stopped from falling when Litho-Braking intervened in his trajectory.
Pontificating with 20/20 Hindsight..., it's easy to see that a far better option would have been electing to Force Land, wheels-up, in the Desert maybe 5 minutes earlier - or carefully and deliberately bailing-out before being chased out of the Cockpit by Flames..., again - several minutes before he actually jumped at the last possible instant. And thus sealed his own fate.
Just(ifiably ?) sayin',
Have a good one...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
@@WarblesOnALot okay so you saying it ain't the fault of the engine to begin with?
It was the fault of unreliable fuels with inconsistent anti-knock properties.
@@davidelliott5843
G'day,
Och, aye, indeed ; the unstable Fuel was a factor...
And not only but also there was that decision to volunteer to "Take the King's Shilling" (referring to the Recruiters of Mad King Ludwig, of Lichtenstein, whose trick of putting a Coin in the Beermug of local Yokels - so that after toasting to the Health of (the Mad) Good King Ludwig and drinking the free Beer they were hit in the mouth by the Coin, which once they grasped..., meant they had sworn an Oath to King Ludwig and accepted their First Payment. So they were in the Army....; as a result of which, to this day "Traditional Beer Mugs" are Pewter Vessels with Glass Bottoms, so that on the call "Bottoms Up !", one could look up through the bottom to see any possible Coin lurking within....).
So, there's a point of view from which Marseilles chose to decide to Volunteer to be paid to be trained and armed and uniformed and fed and deployed..., to shoot at Strangers on the advice from a Politician to the effect that his "National Honour" depended on, and demanded, him and a lot of his Age Cohort go out and die in a Ditch while attacking or defending a Crossroads in the middle of nowhere that anybody in their Hometown had ever previously heard of...
Dying while bailing out of a burning Fighter, alight because it's experimental Fuel wrecked it's Engine while on an Operational Military Sortie...; that's merely the final End-Point which followed an extended
"Lineup of Holes"
in the Swiss-Cheese Causuality Model of how to crash an Aeroplane...
Life is a Multifactorial Equation, and clearly - agreeing to fight for Adolf involves trusting Adolf to supply "good" and "safe" Fuel, with which to run the Engines of the Aeroplanes tasked with pursuing and chastising the "Designated Enemies (Any Me's ?)" of Durr Reich(!).
As the 1st and 2nd Australian Imperial Forces (all volunteer, both Wars...) used to say to anybody who tried to complain (at places like Gallipoli, Beersheba, Poizieres, Fromelles, Passchendaele, Bretonneaux, Crete, Greece, Tobruk, El Alamain, Malaya, Singapore, Ambon, Timor, Papua & New Guinea, Bougainville, Tarawa..., as well as flying Bombers, Fighters, and Coastal Command over Europe and the Middle East....
"If you can't
Take a
Joke...;
Then you
Never
Should have
Enlisted,
Digger -
Not in this
Man's
Army...!"
I'm pretty sure that Marseilles VOLUNTEERED to enlist, and then APPLIED for Flight Training...
Perfect Liberty
Invokes
Perfect Responsibility.
Quod
Erat
Demonstrsndum.
Such is life,
Have a good one...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
@@davidelliott5843 so the previous 109Fs also face failures due to faulty fuels?
Daimler-Benz did make a lot of improvements to the DB 605 engine, especially once MW 50 (50% distilled water/50% methanol) injection became available to improve engine boost. They had to go this route because the Germans didn't have access to the 130 pump octane leaded aviation gasoline that the Allies were able to use.
Imagine what crazy engines they would’ve developed if their fuel was not a problem
Nice video! it would be cool to see a video covering just the mechanical computer that controlled the BMW801. Pilot only needed to set throttle position and the computer would control mixture, prop pitch, etc. Freeing up the pilot to focus on flying.
Check out Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles for a video on that if you haven't already.
The so called _Kommandogeraet_
Wëhräböös are strangely quiet about the Battle of Britain loosing Bf109E not having a constant speed propeller. Too much knowledge required.
@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 we are taking abozr the Fw190 here, not the Bf109!
And for your information:
They did develop a constant speed propeller during the conflict!
Actually, the Bf 109 E was quite up to same level as the Spitfire then!
@@alfredfabulous3640 Yes the Bf109F got a constant speed prop. It was trialed in late Es but like in the initial Fs it was locked out of automatic control for a short period during early teething problems.
Most interesting!!!!
So much literature and comments are available about the Daimler Benz engines, yet very little information are available about the Junkers jumo 213 engines and their development, especially the variant with four valves per cylinder. They also incorporated the 2 stage three speed supercharger which gave it superb high altitude performance. So far I have only been able to pick up some meaningful information in a Russian publication (poorly translated into English), but there are nothing available on internet to corroborate the article
Love this series and the way you present it!
I just wish the videos were longer
Good video with lots of technical stuff. I'd never heard of this motor series. I think the whole concept was ill advised. Thanks a lot, Colin UK 🇬🇧
I hope this gets an follow-up up soon. Nice video
Very interesting video. Can't wait for the next episode. Thank you!
I hope the third part of this series is in the works, I definitely enjoyed this and the first part.
Interesting video. Calum's book on German engine development is a worthy publication.
Great video! Thanks for making! Been subscribed for 6 months now!
Having owned several vehicles in the past with nitrous and boost I have to admit it is SO SO much fun. XXX amount of HP and TQ extra as soon as it hits the combustion chamber. If you have it jetted for 200hp and spray a motor that makes 350HP at 3000 rpm by the time it is at 3600 rpm it's making 550hp
Oh yeah, just like when Humongous hit the nitrous in Mad Max.
@Rick2010100 Nitrous and forced induction are only used to force more oxygen into the combustion chamber than the engine could ingest on it's own.
Cool....!!
@@Rick2010100 didn't the russians have a sort of 'turbo' engine uploading through a sort of 'swirl' or 'vortex' device in the manifold area as well?
Yet another very informative clip. The part of synthetic fuels and their unexpected effects on engine parts and even fuel tank materials gives an idea of what kind of a field engineering can be especially under the stress of war effort and lack of materials. Special thanks for keeping politics out of your material.
Well done Documentary ! It is in Fact showing up some Problems with actuel Disigner Fuels ! The "Aspen" Fuel shows the same Problems with Rubbersealings and Pipes as the selfsealing Tanks in WW 2 . Also the Problem with the overheating of Pistons and the Compressionrings is similar today on Jigsaws. Althoug the Metarials are better today, the E5 or E10 Fuels corrode several Parts of the modern Engines and is desintegrating after a few Months in the Tank.
The Turbo Charging Systems in todays Cars were adapted from the Reserch on the WW2 Flight Engines . So much of the old Stuff is not so old indeed.
ah yes i've been waiting for another part of these engines!
Great info & video as always...the Flower Pot is a Small Block Chevy...
The DB 600 series and the BMW 801 were excellent designs on paper... But for the reasons listed in the video, these engines suffered catastrophic failures and fires. It was not just shortages of nickel, cobalt, and chrome, they had shortages of molybdenum, bismuth, and other metals used to both alloy the iron, and to produce babbitt metal for bearings. These engines were originally designed with roller bearings, but they reengineered them with cast babbitt bearings because of the strategic metal shortages. Combined with poor quality lubricating oil and fuel these engines went from brand new to worthless junk in a week or two, and frequently pilots died as a result.
but the more meta question is; is all of that really the fault of the engine itself? To me it seems to be more of external problem
@@Keckegenkai to be fair, im quite certain a lot of problems do stems from external problem
They also had impressed and slave labour who would sometimes stick flares in between the lower rear pair of cylinders in BMW801 motors, where they'd not be noticed until the engine caught fire on takeoff.
@@Splattle101 oh yeah, this i do remember where one of the only flying original Fw-190 with its original BMW 801 was found with a rag on the intake manifold, which makes the plane crash into what used to be an opening, that Fw-190 is flight capable after it was refurbished :D
@@Splattle101I find this doubtful, where would a labourer get flares from, they’d have to signed out from stores, not left lying about on the production line. The engines would in any case be fired up and signed off by the factory, they wouldn’t wait until the new plane was shipped 2,000kms to the Russian front.
Looking forward to Part III
Great series.
Hello from France, great job !
Wasn't restriction on the use of Emergency Power quite commonplace among DB-series of engines?
You mentioned one during BoB, and I remember reading the same about early DB-605 versions almost until the introduction of Bf 109G-6.
Very interesting video. I've been wanting that book for some time but I may have to just bite the bullet and get it now. Question for you: at about 11.20 you said the Germans noted Rolls Royce engines hade 'impressively good high alt.' performance. My reading on WWII fighter planes (as opposed to their engines) suggests the Me-109 had better high alt. performance than the Merlin powered planes until the advent of Spitfire IX with the Merlin 61 (two-speed, two-stage supercharger with intercooler) in the 2nd half of 1942. This is not congruent with your observation at 11.20. Can you expand on that at all? Also, I'd like to dig into this 601N / 601E business a bit more. One of the photographic identifiers of the Me-109F-4 is the B4 fuel triangle under the cockpit, denoting the 601E motor. The earlier F-1 and F-2 variants had the 601N motor and the C3 fuel (along with the probs you enunciate in this vid). Looking forward to part 3!
Hi FD, is the Part 3 video created yet? I did not see it in your archive. Excellent information!
Awesome video.
It’s finally here!!!!
Thank you, I realy appreciate it, well done. ;o)
Really good video! Calum Douglas's books is amazing eh.
It's been 7 months.....where's part 3?
I've been waiting so long
After the attack on the SWF bearing plant in 1943, the german engineers switched temporalily to copper bushes as bearing substitute - though not as long lasting, nevertheless it did help overcome an otherwise dangerous situation.
I have found several notes in War Office papers on how the British Army neglected to inform the Ministry of Supply who was responsible for procurement prototyping and even testing on vehicles... of ANY after combat action reports. Meaning vehicle fixes and user problems were not making it to MoS and thus MoS couldn't easily fix things. And this was in December of 1944(the notes).
See BuOrd & the Mk14 torpedo
And still they won the war.....so what?
You think they would like to emulate the reliability of the Panther and the Tigers?
Ls V12 appreciates the “plug” at 9:00.
Thank you
good vids. but, i was wanting real pics of the internals. one issue = how did they keep oil from the bottom of the pistons. i guess it just got thrown off.
Is there a part 3?
Helmet Goering sat in an 109.
They spent the rest of the day getting him out.
Yeah, but then so did everyone else. The 109 wasn't exactly known for having a spacious cockpit.
Hermann would have encountered similar problems.
While Goering was a nazi pig who richly deserved to be turned into a wind chime, he was personally brave and was a genuine fighter ace in the first world war. Say what you will about Hermann Goering, at least he killed Hermann Goering.
He deserved another bullet where it hurt in the Munich beer-hall putsch.
What’s funny is the 109 Fredrick was essentially a whole new aircraft but was still designated “109” in the end meanwhile the Yak 1m was later named Yak 3 and stayed such for the rest of the war haha.
No one takes this into account when mentioning kills total, or planes produced. Why not lump all Yaks in with one another if that’s the case.
Same counts for the Spitfire!
@@alfredfabulous3640 Not to the same degree. The Mark II, and Mark V are still the same aircraft essentially, same with the MK IX. Only the MK VIII differed significantly. The only true argument you can make as far as whole new airframes is the HF variants, and the Late Griffon MK 22 and MK 24. Everything besides that had the same tail, same fuel placements, same radiator installations, same wings…
The HF went all the way back, it’s more of a appliqué package than a different aircraft entirely (like the Fredrick is to the Emil). Overall all the records the 109 had can be wiped on the basis of they are totally different aircraft. For America we don’t count kills for the A-36 Apache for the P-51 Mustang. Why do that because Germany failed to make a new name for a new batch of entirely new aircraft.
@@BARelement nope, Sir - I disagree....!
It was built basically by improving the basic design of the Bf109, albeit with ever stronger engines!
The airframe was from beginning right through the end the same.
You find quite a lot of aircraft where this applies, too. Spitfire as already mentioned, P40, FW190, Gloster Meteor, ... It also fits quite good to other vehicles, like T-34 or PzIV.
It would be interesting to compare Japanese, Italian, and Swedish built Daimler Benz aircraft engines.
I guess that Swedish is the best given they built it in peaceful condition. Italian and Japan from what I heard lacked 20 ps compare to German build engine. Also Japan ones suffered from myriad of QC problems (especially crankshaft), and oil overheating (from what I read on one forums, it due to incomplete blueprint which lacked oil return line).
so most of the problems stem from external factors so it seems; namely the fuel situation and future planing. I wonder how the db 600 series would fare with ally 150 octane fuel. Could you also do a video about italien engines from that period?
That’s like wondering what it would be like if we all spoke German and wore Lederhosen right meow!
@@catlady8324 that comment reminds me of this one german comedian who says that "the world of science is german, and if they haven't f-ed up, it would probably still is"
@@twddersharkmarine7774 That’s deep! 🤔🧠
@@catlady8324 One can interpret and judge work in sort of a vacum. Bad materials doesnt necessarily make the concept bad
@@Keckegenkai Milé vacuums are made in Germany.
The V-16 engine block casting shown are automotive GM based not from DB aircraft engines.
Very interesting video but you have not mentioned the faulty spark plugs forcing the engines to run on even less horsepower...
What were the problems with the DB603? I would love a video on that
Far too big and heavy and weak and corroding from first start up and second rate and primitive. 66% bigger for the same power as an allied engine.
Where might I find technical information for this engine, such as connecting rod length and crank pin diameter?
+ @TheHalloweenmasks If you can find copies of the parts manuals they will sometimes have dimensions and measurement specifications for the parts. There are a few websites that sell copies of the manuals.
I heard somewhere that the characteristic singing/whistling sound of the Bf 109 had something to do with the engine? Where might I find more on this? A hopefull sound nerd
I believe it is the supercharger you can hear whistling - you can in IL2 in any case. Hope that helps.
Yeah, it's the supercharger impeller (compressor). It's quite close to the intake of that elbow pipe sticking out the left side of the fuselage; so close you can clearly hear it.
@@Splattle101 Thanks a lot. Merry X.
@@Simon_Nonymous Thanks a lot. Merry X
There is a strange whine in videos of the clipped, cropped and clapped very high speed at low altitude Spitfire LF Mk Vs. They have a reduced diameter supercharger impeller.
I can design any engine you want, any size - the secret is metallurgy, of all components. Air supply design part is easy.
So why was it inverted and what did they end up doing for the cooking system?
+@aaron___6014 Inverted works as well as upright V12s. The inverted requirement was a specification created by the RLM back in the 1920s I think. Maybe for easier maintenance. Inverted engine with a provision for the central cannon were a requirement for engine development.
I've always wondered why some designers chose the Inverted V design.
+@spaceace1006 The German RLM wrote the requirements for inverted engine design in the 1920s. Common reasons are better pilot visibility and easier maintenance for the mechanics. Inverted worked just as well as upright.
I wonder how these engines perform on modern avgas with full octane that they can use?
+@Vumba They make less power and usually don't use the extra boost systems like the MW50 because it isn't needed and would just wear out the engines.
Blue 100LL is equivalent to old 100 octane lean/130 octane rich. The nazis didn’t have such good fuel so their engine compression and boost limits didn’t accommodate such detonation and preignition resistance. There is very limited access to modern higher octane avgas such as purple 115/145 racing aero engine fuel, it would be similar to late war allied avgas.
YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS I was waiting for this shiz
Where is episode 3?
It is been said that the Bf109:s seldom reached their full potential. That is beens said by pilots not german ones as they where silenced.
Some aces got them blueprinted ones or made up of parts backward enginering to get an lighter aircraft as each model where to be heavier.
F-series seems to have been favored by the pilots.
Top pilots got the best ones ordinary men where to manage with planes with flight hours extending well over the red line.
Still they did very well so it was an very good fighter.
it is baffling to me that Daimler-Benz was at first baffled as to why their engine was excessively knocking and throwing it's mounts. did they not think to look at other aspects of the power train such as the fuel lines and fuel tanks? I say this because it seems like the fact that petroleum products leech most rubber and plastic is common knowledge (this is why it is recommended to use only silicone based lubricants between plastic fittings). did they not know this? if they didn't then Daimler-Benz must've had a critical lack of chemical engineers on staff and that would be an incredibly bone headed decision.
If all of these massive problems had actually existed, hardly any German aircraft would have taken off.
Tough times for an e engineer
Just think what could have been if the U.S. had allied with Germany. These German engines built by Packard and supplied with high octane American fuels. The Mustang with a DB 606...
Bayer chemical company - synthetic fuel.
IG Farben combine. Bayer was one of the companies absorbed into the IG Farben combine, including Agfa, BASF, Pfizer and others I can't remember off the top of my head. IG Farben was broken up as a criminal organisation after the war (among other things, they ran the industrial camp at Auschwitz: nice folks).
Very interesting vid. TFP. But please... 'Daimler' is pronounced Dame-ler %~))
Not according to google and a lot of other sources. It appears there are multiple correct pronunciations
@@flightdojo
Exactly. Daimler car company in Britain was not pronounced in the same way as dahmeler in Germany
The Germans worst mistake was opening a war on 2 fronts. That's begging for defeat.
Endorsing race hatred murderous gangsters in democratic elections has to be a really big minus point.
Amazing these people took coal to make high octane
How a wind up starter works - ruclips.net/video/qDWvhCEP-dQ/видео.html
+@rolomaticz5009 Here is an original WW2 German Schwungkraftanlasser starter that was common on many engines. It can be operated with a handle or electrically: ruclips.net/video/8E6AhqQ_htE/видео.html
Did Germany start a war just to lose. The war equalivalent of tank for Tua
downvote no link to pt 1
The book, "The Secret Horsepower Race" is NOT an ultimate authority - it contains errors but more importantly, leaves out far TOO MUCH!
Do you have a better recommendation for sources on German aero engines during that era?
My extensive collection of period "FLIGHT" and "AEROPLANE" magazines (many of which are in online archives), various copies of Allied intelligence reports, some of which I have. If you join some of the specialist WW2 military aviation forums there is an extensive collection of specific topics, including information links to original reports. There are some tremendous experts who participate in these forums, if you knew their true identities you'd be surprised at how famous some of them are. For my part, I have just finished writing an extensive review of the SHPR at the request of the editor which will be published in a forthcoming issue of the magazine that requested it. The book is by no means a tragic train-wreck but it is VASTLY over-hyped and leaves out far TOO much to be a credible overall account of WW2 piston aero-engine development on the Western Front (the author's mission statement).
@@andrerousseau5730 - Due to this absurd and pathetic post, I hereby challenge YOU personally to a live streaming RUclips debate of unlimited duration where listeners ask the questions, and they will discover very... very quickly what the truth is. Contact me via my website contact form, and we will organize it. OR I give you one week to retract this comment, and post an apology for your rude and wholly false statements.
@@CalumDouglas Your challenge is rejected OUTRIGHT! Reason: I was commissioned to write a review of this book and this in the throes of going through the editorial phase. For that reason I am compromised because of the undertakings I have made. Looks like you will be able to trumpet to one-an-all an easy 'victory'. ....but I do stand by my comment!
@@andrerousseau5730 - In which publication can we all look forward to your amazing review? - Or are you not even brave enough to tell us that either ? (by the way since you rejected the debate, you have now 6 days to delete the comment and publicly apologise).
Please slow your speech a bit. No need to rush.
Let us not forget that Germany during ww2 were the Good guys, but Hitler being a ludicrously evil maniac sort of offsets that.
WTF?!?!
Excuse me what? Did he go on trips shooting millions of civilians along the way?
@@MDzmitry Basically it amounts to that
@@alkhazarmegie2270 that was sarcasm.
Who is your favourite serial killer?
F.U. on the gender commercial