This game was designed intentionally to provide people an empathetic understanding of people who live in war-torn countries. I think "art" is a good classification for it.
I think you probably got exactly what you were supposed to get out of both the board and video game. They are meant to make you feel like being in a war. And it does that really well.
My first attempt on the video game: - First character became depressed after killing an old man whilst looking for food and eventually wandered off never to be seen again. - Second character got shot by a sniper, made it home but eventually died as I had no way to treat his injuries. - Third character had no way to defend herself against nightly raids and eventually hung herself. I think you can say it's not a happy game!
One of the best games I've ever played. I've been playing hobby games since the early 80s, and this stands tall as being one of the best, most engaging and moving experiences to ever hit a table. Absolutely brilliant in every way possible. Tom, I think you kind of missed the mark on the rules. There is nothing that says players should wing it, or ignore certain things if they want to. The game does ask you to ignore certain things until it teaches those things. So there will be things the players do not know up until a certain point, but once they do know them they are required. It really is a brilliant system, and more games should utilize this method of teaching. This is a watershed moment in gaming, as important as any other "important" game to ever be created. It is a hobby-defining game.
Yeah i was thinking the same as well. I also recall a part that said if you cant find the rules, you should make a houserule that would be most appropriate to the situation. Im pretty sure it even had an example of 'if you were in this situation, what would you do?' That might be another part that they interpretted as do what you want.
I'm thinking about getting this game to play with my girlfriend (she's also pretty interested in it), so I'd like to ask a few questions to people who have played it. 1. Is it a good game for 2 players? 2. How's the replayability? Because we don't wanna buy a game which we will play like 5 times and then just leave it on the shelf. Thanks in advance! (I know I'm kinda late, but thought I should ask anyway)
@@leodeschain0926 play the mobile version or the PC version first. In an hour you'll know if you love it to death or hate it lol. I can not stop playing it. This game is not reeeeaally easy for people who have no idea of what the actual game is so that will help you, play the predecessor first
@@leodeschain0926 I see your comment was 5 months ago but if you haven't tried this game yet, you should. Yes, it plays well at 2 players if you enjoy the theme. The replayability is great because there are TONS of stories that exist and they are all random. (that's the numbers on all the cards that Tom was talking about in the video). My roommate and I love to play because I'm more cautious and he is a risk taker. So depending on who controls which part of each day, even the actions and choices that get made would be different. (During each step of a day, one player is in control and has final say on what happens, but everyone can have input, I've played the game with up to 6 people, but sometimes people felt like they were doing much.)
that game about trying to create escape routes for African American Slaves during the American Civil War is meant to be very educational although some people feel uncomfortable about putting it on the table with people they don't know well.
Oh yes, that one seemed to be interesting. I don't remember quite well from the review (correct me if i am wrong), but maybe the most problematic part was sometimes you did face situations you would loose people anyway? I guess the idea you can win a game even when you loose people might appear as taking human life as a cheap thing.
I used This War of Mine the computer game in the classroom when we talked about civilian and refugee experiences in Syria, Bosnia, etc. I don't know if I would get this boardgame in order to do the same as it doesn't seem to do much different form the computer game and the rules might be too complicated for some of my students.
The video game was made with the help of the charity "War Child" if I recall correctly. It does what it set out to do very well, which is illustrate how devastating war is to ordinary people. The struggle for survival where no-one really wins and where terrible things need to be done for reasons that are barely worth it. This really illustrated a point perfectly in the video game industry; namely that video games don't necessarily need to be "fun", but they need to be "compelling". The game should make you want to play it by giving you a sense of progression and accomplishment, and a game that can really grip you and make you feel empathy for the characters you are playing as has to be commended. It won a bunch of awards for being one of the first video games for handling such a serious subject in a way that was both engaging and truthful to the seriousness of the subject matter. Regarding the board game implementation though, perhaps the slower pace of the board game doesn't help as the rewarding feeling of progression is spoon fed to you slower than in the video game, as is the nature of board games.
I do not think a piece of entertainment has to always produce happiness and exhilaration. And I do believe that if a boardgame can offer strong emotions and deep immersion to a theme and a storyline, than it is not only valid and great: it is indeed a rare piece of art! I understand that not every one will enjoy this immersion, and that is a pity, but I think it sounds like an amazing and brilliant game! I can't wait to try it!
I played my first session today (Kickstarter backer)After listening to this review I kinda wish the designers would have included their letter to the backers (there was a special thank you letter sent along with the game) in every box. The letter touched on using these stories to remind us that in a day and age where war is romanticised we should remember that war is never pretty. For me as a Christian it's a similar experience as watching the Passion of Christ. It not a movie I got to for entertainment but it always reminds me of the cost. As CS Lewis said, pain is Gods megaphone to rouse a deaf world. Sure that's a little heavy and I wouldn't want games like this to be the majority of my collection. However I'm happy to have this ONE.
One of my favorite solo board games to play. I find it extremely engaging: the base-building, the crafting, the scavenging. It ticks all the boxes for me. I don’t think I’d break it out for a group game night - the theme is a bit too dark for a group of friends to have fun with, but I would highly recommend it for solo play,
Tom, that may be your most honest, thoughtful review ever. I applaud you for the considerable thought you put into this one. I Kickstartered the game and play the video game sporadically. You're right, it's not one that I will play all of the time, as I'm sure I'll find with the board game. With that said, it is a game I want on my shelf, mainly for solo play. I will not be playing this with my kids, that's for sure. I will be playing it for the challenge and I feel that it is a game that needed supporting. The designers tried to design something different and I believe they succeeded very well. Thanks so much for the incredibly thoughtful review.
Just picked this up over the weekend. The game is absolutely fantastic! It's VERY powerful in theme and while we're ok with the gore of zombies is ok, war isn't? I guess it's the realism. That's just an observation. Having said that, I can certainly see why it isn't Tom's choice. In the end, it's a (VERY) dark Choose Your Own Adventure with a success rate akin to your Arkham style games.
Ok Tom, really like your video and think overall this is a good review. However, I really need to call you on the rules stuff!!! where you say "players can pretty much do what you want" ... In the Journal it says this is a very large, complex and elaborate game and they are that on occasion people may encounter situations that are not clarified by the FAQ. In this situation, players should use common sense and choose an interpretation that best reflects what would happen in the real world. Also, each of the sections in the Journal does have a FAQ reference listed next to them, including board setup, so I have no idea why you have had a major time looking through the rules book for clarification. To give balanced feedback I do understand that a lot of the rules and mechanics are hidden and when you play through your first day you do feel totally lost, I lost track of the amount of time I found myself asking how does everything work. However, once you have played through the first day fully, most of the pieces start to fit together. I 100% agree with your comments on the theme and the rest of the game but was concerned that people who are considering this game may be put off my your comments that there are no real rules to the game and people "just do what they want" and I personally feel that the game mechanics are pretty well defined and so far I have not come across a situation which I could not clarify. Oh, the final little point which I am sure can be drastically overlooked. Not sure if you picked up on this Tom. During set-up, you can adjust colour cards deck that determine what stories you are going to encounter in the book of scripts, essentially red and black can be removed from the deck and therefore removing the chance to come across some of the really bad stuff. Not sure how or if this impacts the game but thought I would mention it. I do wonder if this was D&D or Mansions of Madness themed, hmm would that change things? Certainly not a game for everyone, but in my opinion, a great game that does come with rules :) Simply thematic game of the year, if not the decade.
I, too, found the rules a bit confusing, but in almost every case where we looked something up online or in the faq in the book of scripts it turned out that I was confused because I'm the type that wants to know what everything on every component is FOR ahead of time, and the game documents make you wait and only want to you to do things with information exactly when the game tells you to do something with them (e.g. the script numbers in the colored dots). However, I have NO idea what Tom picked up that you were supposed to "play however you want." That was not an idea II picked up from anything in the game...
Tom, it's supposed to be depressing. The man who developed the video game lived through the war in Kosovo (IIRC) and it's based on his experiences. So yes, it's not supposed to be rosy and happy. Good review.
I was impressed you played the game! It's not an easy experience to go through... And not something you can succeed at and stay a good person in the game. I knew you were in for a rough one as soon as a saw what game it was, and I'm really impressed that you could say, it's good, but not something you might 'enjoy' playing. It's an experience, and sometimes an exhausting one at that.
it is amazing how much the game has effected you. i am not saying this in judgment but as a testament to the creators. watching the extras and game development of the pc game i had the same humbling experience. the game was made to show the horrors of war. you are not a hero. you are not invincible. war is hell on earth. keep up the good work Dice Tower. i pick a lot of my games from your reviews.
Reminds me a bit of "Freedom: The Underground Railroad," another co-operative board game about ordinary humans in terrible, soul-destroying circumstances. I don't play Freedom very often but I'm proud to own it, and I suspect TWoM will be the same.
I got the game like 3 years ago and I remember at that time I was telling myself: This would be a great board game! And then, few years later I learned that they really made a board game out of it :D
5 years after this review, my wife and have have brought a copy and it's spectacular. Grim, complex and atmospheric. It's a similar vibe to the videogame, but not strictly the same gameplay. Very involving and with a tense feeling throughout, you're constantly making difficult choices trying to call forward as you know you could be dragged back into doom any minute. It ain't Munchkin! But it is mightily impressive and thought-provoking.
Great review. And it is understandable not wanting to go through the horrors of the war, which the game does in a great manner. It is a piece of art and you gotta be brave to tackle it.
Board Game Geek has PDF with all rules in one place (login is required): boardgamegeek.com/file/download_redirect/9f056742bdb897fdfaf6f2f783866c7ae08f838e2814be5c/TWOM_Rulebook_FAQs_Low_Ink_V1_1.pdf
Sometimes it's 'good' watch a film like Schindler's list. I enjoy the film. Plus even in our 24hr news world, the true effects of war are sugar coated. How manys times do you hear about refugees and some people criticising them, without the understanding of what they have left.
I don't quite understand the complaint about the rules. I found the Journal to be a very clear, concise, and structured learning tool, with no hint of "play however you want" as Tom alludes to. Personally I loved the rulebook, but I've seen enough people complain about it to guess that it's just too different to what people are used to (not explaining aspects until they're needed etc).
Yeah, I don't get where he got the Play how you want also. I think this game has very strict rules. Only do what either the journal, faq, or what the cards tell you. Don't assume rules like just picking a number and start reading a script.
Tom completely missed the mark on his review of the rules. No where do the rules say to wing it, or to just play how you want. He should amend the review, because as it stands it's portraying false information.
I was just thinking this. I haven't had any issues with the rules at all. There are advanced rules, but you're not meant to know about them (indicated by the wording on them, that you 'discovered advanced rules').
I find that this is a good game to ground you to reality. It's easy to take things for granted and everytime i pull this game out, i start to understand what others go through in real life war situations and it makes you appreciate what you have. It may not be a fun game, but its an insightful one.
After playing this game several times the description that 'players can do whatever they want' as a criticism is totally off . I found this game quite simple to follow. Follow the cards.
I like Tom's comparison with Robinson Crusoe (another difficult to win game) and I think he's spot on in that one is adventurous and trying to survive while TWoM is just trying to live. And living and surviving are two different feels.
Michael Gardner I think the difference is in Crusoe if you don't have enough food that round you take your hit and maybe next round you get enough but even if you don't the next round it doesn't have that feeling of despair and you continue to survive but in TWoM you don't eat one round and that effects more than just hunger and now if you don't get food again you're in a real heap of trouble which makes living just a goal.
I think it is quite good, when a boardgame goes in another direction and shows the actual cruelty of war and stuff. Most of them glorify war, so this is a new way and thats a good thing. Its not something for everyone of course. Neither is sad music or actual sad or depressing books. Or movies especially...
I play the video game since it's release on Windows, 5 years ago. Happily I found the board game a while ago and finally bought it for myself. The first pro to this game in my opinon is, that it is possible to play as singleplayer. I like the art and it is really the first board game so far, I just could start to play. For me it worked, with the explanations on the flow. But I agree, when something is not clear, it is not really handy to go threw the whole book of scripts. A seperate book of rules would be nice. What I also want to mention is the possibiblity to use the company app on mobile devices. There you just enter the script number and it will shown on your screen. It reduces tremendously the time you need to search for the scripts. Also the ability to save the game in the app is decent. No need to use the paper sheets for saving anymore. Speaking of wich, I don't like to write on game material, what is kinda neccessary in here for certain events. Conclusion for me: I love the game. It is a board game, I've waited too long for. But I agree with you, not everyone will have 'fun' with this kind of game. The computer game made me quite depressive in some cases and it shows you relentlessly the consequences of your actions. Maybe some 'Call of Duty Heros' dudes want to play that one at least for one, because: "In war, not everyone is a soldier." Cheerio.
Great review! I think we will soon reach a point when we will have this 'artsy' boardgames for darker moods and light-hearted 'flicky' games for fun and enjoyment, like with books, movies, music and any other form of art!
I've played the video game and yes it is sad and horrific in what the characters go through, but that's what I kind of love about the game is that it shows you that side of war. You are going to be hungry, you're going to get sick, your probably going to find someone who is going to fight over whats theirs, and you are probably going to have people who die. But playing the game I did not get depressed...it was just some "Wow" moments with thought provoking playthroughs that I actually reflected on after getting through a game successfully or unsuccessfully. It told a story all the way through, and made you feel like the characters could be real. As someone who thinks about the horrible side of humanity and reads and see's horrible stuff that happens every day even outside of war, I am ok playing this game. I'm not saying I enjoy any of that, that's far from the truth, I'm just not going to get so down or feeling depressed that I don't want to play this game because of the theme.
It is a single person video game. It is often sold for less than 10 bucks on Steam during its sale weeks. The video game version gives you more freedom, like real combats against bandits and soldiers.
Most moving video game: The Last of Us ... Most moving board game: This War of Mine Played a few game days with my son. Then his brain hurt so solo played the rest. After I “lost” shortly after chapter II, I stood in the living room and just stared at the board. I thought about the timeline, the chronology and the decisions we made. And “how did it come to this?” Experiencing the gamut of emotions is healthy. Embrace the sadness. The Grizzled has a similar theme, surviving with no end in sight. Ultimately they both generate empathy and understanding that is for the most part lost on our generation. Definitely on display on my shelf.
A very thoughtful review. I thought about backing the Kickstarter campaign at the time, but I couldn't bring myself to buying a game that has this theme. As an educational tool about the hardships that civilians have to endure in war, I have no issues with it. As a game I would like to own, then this doesn't qualify. If I want to be confronted with the gruesomeness of war, I will watch the news. If I want to play a game, I have 100 good choices on my shelves.
Abotu the rules, in this case, the rules, and how they expand, work. Why ? Because that also simulates the idea of war and survival. You will keep learning, finding people and materials, and have to figure out what you can and cannot do and how. It simulates the change of the way of life, survival. This game, and the original, were made to show people the horrors of war. Not to have fun, but to understand. It's like me watching Band of Brothers. Sure, great action, but is it fun ? No, it is interesting, it catches you, gives you great heroism with horrible things to find and see. It grips you. Where is the line between surviving, and condemning others by stealing their stuff, when you can see they also are lacking in food, medicine, but you also need it, do you trade, do you steal, do you kill. How far are you willing to go ? And in some games it really doesn't matter, just kill, just steal, it often doesn't really matter, because the game is limited, with this, that's a little different, more so in the digital version. How far do you think you want to go to survive, and how far do you need to go to survive, and will you ? It's a lame thing to say, but, it is a bit of an experience That said, i do think the digital game is better for it, it being single player as well.
Tom, this was a really thoughtful review. I appreciate you tackling the pros and cons of such an unusual game. Think I will pass on it, but I thought the "art" analogy was good. With all the refugees in the world right now, I have to applaud the creators for bringing attention to the subject matter of those caught in the middle. Could be a good educational tool.
What is said about the board game is also true about the computer game. And look how popular it is! Meaning that fun (which goes hand in hand with games) does not have a single happy face. I could make the same review with exactly the same thoughts, just shifting the balance, and having a different feeling. In the end what Tom said is very true. It's an excellent game. Just know what you're getting. We consume art, music, cinema, litterature etc. that we like. Yet that is not always "fun". Still we like it. In this golden age of board gaming there's is a place for similar games. I would buy it, though I don't know if the poeple that i play with will want to play it, for the intensions alone. It' s well done too. So much the better.
First off, you can't wing the rules. I don't know where you got that impression. It's plainly a misunderstanding. Second, dark emotions aren't bad. When we play this game, we often laugh. Not funny laughs, but laughs of despair and frustration. We go: "oh this is so unfair, it's beautiful". It's like watching Sofies choice or Donnie Darko. Or Shindlers List as some one mentioned. You wouldn't want to live these experiences yourself, but you relish the experience of the narrative, and see the beauty of it. When playing this game, you feel something. Life is more than comedies. Thirdly, your review is missing the most important thing about this game. The big picture. What it means to the evolution of boardgames. This War of Mine is not just entertainment. It is a deliberate attempt to create a work of art with a bordgame as the medium. They developers want to tell you something. Or rather, they want you to start thinking about the subjekt of war. It's a game with a message and that is new to my knowledge. At least to this extend. And this means board games have leveled up. It reminds me of when roleplaying games "grew up" in the 90's. Suddenly, they had more depth. And This War of Mine is part of the same trend for boardgames. It's probably not the only one. I know Fog of Love is coming up, that also has an artistic intent. Now, is it for everyone? Surely not. It's kind of like a French movie. Only a few of your friends would watch that over a summer blockbuster. But you know that the film industry is probably improving for have this broarder scope. I have played TWoM 5 times now and lost in all of the games. I WILL be playing it again. Not to win, but to have new players experience the game and see them go: "This is so unfair. War is stupid".
If you lost five times in a row you are not playing by the rules. Read all the rules carefully. It is a pain in the ass on how it is all set up but the game should be winnable more than 40% of the time. Also, feel free to use save states and wing the rules however you want. the devs said in the book that winging the rules is ok. They even gave some examples, like eating pets for example.
@@jgtogi6839 If you win 40% of the time YOU are not playing by the rules. I came close once in 10 games. Don't forget that you must finish the game with at least 1 of the STARTING characters, not just any characters.
Set-up time vs game experience is always a consideration. Two other game that come to mind are Dead of Winter and Outlive. It seems all three games are survival type games, but with different mechanics, rules, set-up time, etc. and narrative focus and maybe depressing-vs-happiness balance or "levels" of survival. (And then there are other post-apocolyptic setting games like 51st State and Armageddon.)
This game is amazing (the computer one, have not played the board game, but by your explanation is quite faithful)... But you are completelly right, this game is not made and not meant to be happy... The computer game, even when you win the storyline is sad and sometimes even the characters that survived do not have happy endings... An I mean, it is how war is, right, the after war moral is a solder that is condecorated by he's country for killing a lot of other human beings, sometimes children, than returning home and not finding a job, dealing with all the trauma that war brings to him, depression, anxiety, death wish, killing sick, hard memories... I played the game a couple of times myself, it;s a great game, sometimes I feel like playing it again, but than yet, I am not sure I want to.... Congratulations for this review, it is very true and very good... I would also recommend the game, in my personal opinion is a A+ title and it really does what it was meant to do.... You got yourself a like and subscriber since I love board games....
Too many war games glorify the violence and the myth of the hero. I think a war game that is depressing and shows the civilian reality of war zones is surprisingly refreshing. It may not feel good, but could feel profound, like movies about the holocaust or something.
The mess of cards is one of the things that had me drop my pledge. I can't imagine often wanting to spend 30 minutes setting up a depressing experience. I think it looks really interesting though.
I own it now. It's not "depressing" anymore than say Schindler's List is depressing...lol...I didn't find the classic 1993 movie depressing...I found it exhilarating. Same goes with This War. It does have a mess of cards though.
Game takes about 10 minutes to set up your first game. Quicker after that. I can set up the game in about 5 minutes now. Everything is clearly labeled as to where it goes. Super easy.
Tom... I understand your final thoughts, but "Dead of Winter" isn't exactly "Up with people". I was attracted to this game, as a writer, as a possible RPG that might teach me something. I Kickstarted this game as a challenge. I do understand your ideas of being depressed, and not wanting to play it again.
Ironically, research has shown that in conditions such as those in this game, people behave better. Crime drops, suicide and depression levels drop, and people generally cooperate. Check out Sebastian Junger's "Tribe" for the entry-level skinny.
I think you nailed the review and told exactly what the game is about. It's dark, depressing and players are barely surviving at best. However I love that the game slaps dilemma's in your face about what to do next, everyone should have at least played the boardgame (and videogame) once just to experience it.
Much as I love board games I can't see this one being better than the PC game. You are spending so much time and effort to move the narrative forward with the board game which could make it a drag. The game is "fun" and "enjoyable" in the same sense that you might enjoy a movie about the holocaust, or any war movie really. A lot of bad things happen obviously in those kinds of movies yet characters can survive given determination and luck. Same with the game, often you will lose but that makes the few times you win all the more satisfying.
Let me get a couple of things about "This War of Mine" out of the way: I think it's a great idea and one of the most effective videogames I've played in a while, it's meant to deliver a message and it does that in a great way. It's meant to put you in the shoes of a victim, rather than living a power fantasy. However, when I decided not to back the kickstarter for this boardgame there was one mayor concern and this review seem to confirm it: the boardgame struggles too hard to be just like the videogame. I think that the game is actually too involved and it should have simplified some of the ideas of his predecessor, rather than sticking so close to the original.
They are actually far more different that Tom suggests. I put 100 hours into the PC game and finished all the scenarios. A big difference, is the PC game is easy to crack. Once you have been to a location, it is the same every time. This is not true in the boardgame. Exploration in this game is a truly unique experience of pushing your luck and risk management. There are also objectives and events that do not happen in the PC game, and a lot more variety in encounters and interactions. It is a rare case of the boardgame actually offering more content and more variety than the PC version. More stories, more game modes and scenarios, more available actions in general, and very much without an "optimal path" like the PC game.
Greatly enjoyed this review, especially the final thoughts. I only know the steam game and I struggled with the same thoughts. I knew I was playing something intriguing and exceptionally well made, but for the life of me I can't find a single reason to play it again.
I was thinking the same thing. Maybe its just the almost monotone colour scheme/dirty drab look to the board. The book of scripts reminds me of Tales of the Arabian Nights. But hopefully more streamlined. I love lots of theme in games, but not the stop-go-stop-go of ToAN. Maybe I'll try the app. :D
I have both, and they are very different. Dead of Winter has the semi-competitive element of completing your own goal and forming your own faction. And its quite gonzo, with wonder dogs, mall santa and secret bio facility zombies. It feels like you are playing a zombie movie, so the horror is distant. This War is utterly and totally grounded in reality. Its' fully cooperative, and the horror doesn't come from zombies eating people, but from the harsh brutality of the inside of a siege city. Sarejevo, Alleppo, Leningrad, that sort of horror.
Reason to watch a review after a playthrough: to see how someone else feels after playing the game. (Personally, I'm hoping this will replace Dead of Winter with my gaming group, but it's not coming out until Dead of Winter gets requested)
I have the game and there really isn't an issue with the rules like he says. In no way does it say anywhere about playing however you want. There are rules in this game just like any other game but it's just laid out differently. The creators were trying something different, instead of reading the rules for 20 minutes to your gaming group, in this game you just start playing and learning rules as you go. Not everyone will like it but I think it worked pretty well.
If we go with "Games as Art", then games don't need to be fun, but they should be compelling. Watching Schindler's List isn't fun, but it is compelling. Playing the game might not be "fun" in a traditional sense, but it sounds compelling.
I understand why Tom brought up the "despair" part of the game, but I see no problem with it. This is what war is like. If you are able to joke all the time when you are playing a war game, then it may be okay for a younger audience, but imo it's doing the theme wrong. After all the game is appropriately labeled 18+.
I think this would be a good educational game. Its not a board game night game, where you want to be socializing. The video game works more because you play it by yourself, its a personal experience. I feel like the board game would not only be depressing from the theme of the game, but also shame/being uncomfortable as you make moral choices as part of a group.
I want to get this game but I just know I would have the same problem. I get that it's not supposed to be fun & uplifting and more of an 'experience' but trying to find people who would want to play this theme of game with me would be tough, and solo is only so much fun up to a point. War is war, but Games are games at the end of the day.
I love this video game. I especially love playing with the child characters, as heartrending as that makes it. But I disagree that the board game is like the video game. I've played literally at least 80 hours of the video game. I play it by myself. I lose myself for hours. And it destroys me, but it's just me. I'm able to just burrow on in. So, I think that's the first reason I don't really enjoy the board game. Even when it's only my partner and I playing a two-player game, the dynamic is different. Additionally, I think that the rules of the board game changed a lot of what made the video game so accessible. It's a hard topic, so the rules need to be extra clear and simple so that the focus is on surviving the war. That's why the point and click works so well for the video game. Also, the board game made things like water and food much less accessible than the video game. And yes, things should be hard to access. It's a Civil War. But I thought the rarity in the video game was much more valid, and allowed for harder decisions when you found food while scavenging. The board game makes it harder to find food in general. In your house, scavenging, and when rolling to find an extra scavenging good. I'm really not impressed. It's not engrossing for me, it's off-putting. Not because of the topic, not because it's a war. Because of the mechanics.
there is a place for sobering game experiences. too much war triumphalism and fetishism. as specific experiences they are important, just like profound movies...though the ludic aspect of being implicated in the horror is different than the voyeurism of purely visual arts. still v important and kudos to creators for taking on theme. that being said I have no urge to play the boars game but own and still haven't yet played the computer game, will be soon.
The game comes with a campaign and 2 scenerio's. The campaign is three 2to2.5hr sessions and what you will play first. Scenerios are one off sessions with some special rules.
Went and played my KS copy after watching this review. I'd been putting it off as my dog had knocked the open box off the table and the mass of chits and bits and cards were mixed up. I can definitely understand Toms take here, and, honestly for anyone who watches many of his reviews, would you expect anything else? This touches on content both timely and relevant and considerably darker than almost any other game out there - every game out there? I cant think of a darker game. I certainly 100% know that feeling he's talking about and how it's easiest comparison is to powerful and impactful movies that most people aren't likely to watch again. I don't mind the dark and dreary world presented here, at least not yet, after one "play-through". That said there were certainly some shocking moments and the constant beatdown your characters suffer is relentless. I wonder (I didn't track the KS notes and thoughts too closely) if this is why players down have their own character, it may have been a choice to pull players as much as possible away from being attached to a single character. There were some times where I just went "nope, that's too much" not only for my characters but for my enjoyment of the game when my characters encountered something. While I did punish them accordingly I refused to keep the punishing effect in play so it would happen again after a bad dice roll decided whether it should be removed or not. The rule choice was interesting but inevitably did not quite make it there as Tom notes. The "Journal" jump in and play is so *almost* there. It actually IS there if they had simply just should printed a "advanced rules reference" in a similar manner - i think they could have pulled it off in 4-6 pages of a small journal sized book with some nice icon references with a glossary or index. It became extremely frustrating trying to hunt down what Meds and Bandages did when I was presented with a choice to apply them to characters but had no understanding of their application manner, value, pros, cons, etc. I literally ended up flipping through the script book 1 page at a time reading every grey shaded area. This was a common problem throughout my play-through. We'll see. Contrary to how it may look I felt setup was very straightforward and quick. That was also after sorting all my chits and bits. Those of you getting ready to play may pre-sort your chits/bits as designated in the book before any people joining you arrive. Play was smooth until you hit a question on something you had to hunt down. Finally though, the game is insanely hard. My characters all died (committed suicide) before I made it to chapter 2 (there are 3 chapters). Knowing a little more after playing several rounds I certainly will try and adjust my play on the next go but I thought I was making some solid choices and I didn't take on fights unnecessarily even though the game makes those choices weigh heavily on your conscience.
Sounds like the theme is strong enough to be immersive if Tom is noticing the death and destruction which many games have, but he doesn't in them. But how can you call it a good game if you can't even find rules? You can't. Seriously, why would he approve a game he couldn't even figure out the rules for? Insane.
Seems like the board game nailed perfectly its purpose of narrating a story of war, which is incredibly miserable like all stories of war. Maybe even more than the videogame, where if you know what you're doing it becomes a walk in the park and loses some of its appeal. The question really is: do you have a gaming group that is able to play this game in the spirit it was meant to be played and not get crushed by it? Sad experiences are also important experiences - and I love This War of Mine videogame exactly because of that - but not everyone wants to meet with friends and do something that makes them sad. Quoting Fallout: War, War never changes. I just feel lucky I'm far far away from any of those.
Great Review Tom. I did not seem to have the same trouble with the rules as you did but I can for sure see how this could happen. I ran into very few rules questions and when I did I found a "Rule Book" someone on BGG put together so I didn't have to go searching through the Book of Scripts. I am loving this game.
How to say something profound over a game that is simply PROFOUND. Perhaps every world leader, and every soldier or militant should be made to sit down and play this game. You will get invested in your character, and then likely see them die. The life lessons are VALUABLE. War isn't fun. The innocent are thrown into a maelstrom. Do they adapt, and perpetrate harm on others in the name of survival? Or do they struggle, try to be moral, and likely die. This game helps all of us get a glimpse of this. Fun it is not. Worthwhile "playing" YES. Perhaps the Schindlers List of Boardgames. Once is enough. As others have said, maybe every high school student should play and then write a report on it. Thank you for reviewing.
I almost backed this game, but the over all intensity of the theme made me pass. There is just so much stress, pain, and anxiety going on today. Our world feels more and more on edge as war and terrorism are beating us down daily. I am sure it is a good game, but I know it would leave me with an extra layer of nausea and dread on top of daily issues and hopelessness purported by the media. I do not need a game tot each me how disgustingly barbaric everything around war is. I do hope that those who backed it end up enjoying their game though, its just not for me. Maybe I am just weak, but it is what it is.
War. In reality, it's a tough subject. And in reality, it's depressing. Sounds like this game does what it set out to do, show what war does to people. I played the video game a few times, and it was tough and depressing. Sounds like the board game does the same thing.
Bought it. Played it. It has some pretty sweet ideas. It comes down as a poor experience as a game. By design this is supposed to be a game. It has boardgame written on the cover of the box, however, it tries to be 2 things at once and does bad job at both. It tries to be a novel and tries to be 2 different games at once. This doesn't combine well. The game is more about the journey of a maximum number of 4 locals who are trying to survive a war period during the autumn-winter seasons. The ending is about these characters (who may or may not change as the game goes on) with each getting a short paragraph that doesn't really lead to anything satisfying. The game outright is built to undermine everything you accomplish in the largest degree possible without ways to prevent them. It becomes less a game as nothing you do really matters. Progress forward is undone far more readily and quickly than you could establish. Throughout the game, the players will be referring to a narrative element and may need to make choices. What this offers is the biggest downfall in my opinion. There's pointless sections of just descriptive text that does nothing for the game. There are moments when the choices are vague and only if you choose them do you realize you aren't doing what you thought you would be doing. There are moments where you get no chance at all to avoid disaster. i will list 2 I've encountered out of the many just to demonstrate my point: Characters are in a building and hear sounds of boots approaching. Systematically they hear rooms being searched (I can't recall if gun fire is heard). The choices were, brace yourself for whatever is coming or jump out the window (several stories high and cement on the floor below. Bracing yourself leads to instant death. You are not given a chance to fight or even talk. Doesn't matter if you had several characters there who were armed to the teeth with gear suitable for a fight. Jumping out the window, now there is a poor use of words. Rather than what would come to mind the text states after making the choice that the characters climb to the window of the room below this one - THAT is not jumping out the window. There is an event card that makes you lose all your green items (which are mostly food). It doesn't matter how many you had, you lose all of them. It didn't inspire despair in me. It inspired frustration in how much the game gives a you a few toys, yanks them away from you slapping your wrists and then repeats that process. the challenge is not caring about anything and just doing random stuff because of this way it plays. Don't compare this to the computer game. They are two different games with entirely different way of doing similar things. The video game is more stupid in it's design than the boardgame. Neither game is really dark. Annoying, yes. I ruined the computer game for someone when I pointed out all the really stupid design choices that were made in it. They asked for my opinion and they got it with my reasoning.
War is not a game... This is the inconvenient truth that this game is set to lay bare. When war is glorified, abstracted into mechanical rules, or when the cold reality of its senseless violence is ignored in a game, it can make it look more acceptable, more "human". But it never is acceptable.
I have the game and there really isn't an issue with the rules like he says. In no way does it say anywhere about playing however you want. There are rules in this game just like any other game but it's just laid out differently. The creators were trying something different, instead of reading the rules for 20 minutes to your gaming group, in this game you just start playing and learning rules as you go. Not everyone will like it but I think it worked pretty well.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
This game was designed intentionally to provide people an empathetic understanding of people who live in war-torn countries. I think "art" is a good classification for it.
I think you probably got exactly what you were supposed to get out of both the board and video game. They are meant to make you feel like being in a war. And it does that really well.
My first attempt on the video game:
- First character became depressed after killing an old man whilst looking for food and eventually wandered off never to be seen again.
- Second character got shot by a sniper, made it home but eventually died as I had no way to treat his injuries.
- Third character had no way to defend herself against nightly raids and eventually hung herself.
I think you can say it's not a happy game!
Brutal :/
because war fucking sucks. and any country with any ethics would never engage in it.
@@jerkchickenblog say that again... :(
One of the best games I've ever played. I've been playing hobby games since the early 80s, and this stands tall as being one of the best, most engaging and moving experiences to ever hit a table. Absolutely brilliant in every way possible.
Tom, I think you kind of missed the mark on the rules. There is nothing that says players should wing it, or ignore certain things if they want to. The game does ask you to ignore certain things until it teaches those things. So there will be things the players do not know up until a certain point, but once they do know them they are required. It really is a brilliant system, and more games should utilize this method of teaching.
This is a watershed moment in gaming, as important as any other "important" game to ever be created. It is a hobby-defining game.
Yeah i was thinking the same as well. I also recall a part that said if you cant find the rules, you should make a houserule that would be most appropriate to the situation. Im pretty sure it even had an example of 'if you were in this situation, what would you do?' That might be another part that they interpretted as do what you want.
I'm thinking about getting this game to play with my girlfriend (she's also pretty interested in it), so I'd like to ask a few questions to people who have played it.
1. Is it a good game for 2 players?
2. How's the replayability? Because we don't wanna buy a game which we will play like 5 times and then just leave it on the shelf.
Thanks in advance!
(I know I'm kinda late, but thought I should ask anyway)
@@leodeschain0926 play the mobile version or the PC version first. In an hour you'll know if you love it to death or hate it lol. I can not stop playing it. This game is not reeeeaally easy for people who have no idea of what the actual game is so that will help you, play the predecessor first
@@leodeschain0926
I see your comment was 5 months ago but if you haven't tried this game yet, you should. Yes, it plays well at 2 players if you enjoy the theme. The replayability is great because there are TONS of stories that exist and they are all random. (that's the numbers on all the cards that Tom was talking about in the video).
My roommate and I love to play because I'm more cautious and he is a risk taker. So depending on who controls which part of each day, even the actions and choices that get made would be different. (During each step of a day, one player is in control and has final say on what happens, but everyone can have input, I've played the game with up to 6 people, but sometimes people felt like they were doing much.)
It might be a good educational tool. Too many games with glourious battles (that's not bad per se) and so few about how people suffer.
that game about trying to create escape routes for African American Slaves during the American Civil War is meant to be very educational although some people feel uncomfortable about putting it on the table with people they don't know well.
Oh yes, that one seemed to be interesting. I don't remember quite well from the review (correct me if i am wrong), but maybe the most problematic part was sometimes you did face situations you would loose people anyway? I guess the idea you can win a game even when you loose people might appear as taking human life as a cheap thing.
I used This War of Mine the computer game in the classroom when we talked about civilian and refugee experiences in Syria, Bosnia, etc. I don't know if I would get this boardgame in order to do the same as it doesn't seem to do much different form the computer game and the rules might be too complicated for some of my students.
@@razorboy251 I wish I had a teacher like you.
The video game was made with the help of the charity "War Child" if I recall correctly. It does what it set out to do very well, which is illustrate how devastating war is to ordinary people. The struggle for survival where no-one really wins and where terrible things need to be done for reasons that are barely worth it.
This really illustrated a point perfectly in the video game industry; namely that video games don't necessarily need to be "fun", but they need to be "compelling". The game should make you want to play it by giving you a sense of progression and accomplishment, and a game that can really grip you and make you feel empathy for the characters you are playing as has to be commended. It won a bunch of awards for being one of the first video games for handling such a serious subject in a way that was both engaging and truthful to the seriousness of the subject matter.
Regarding the board game implementation though, perhaps the slower pace of the board game doesn't help as the rewarding feeling of progression is spoon fed to you slower than in the video game, as is the nature of board games.
I do not think a piece of entertainment has to always produce happiness and exhilaration. And I do believe that if a boardgame can offer strong emotions and deep immersion to a theme and a storyline, than it is not only valid and great: it is indeed a rare piece of art! I understand that not every one will enjoy this immersion, and that is a pity, but I think it sounds like an amazing and brilliant game! I can't wait to try it!
I played my first session today (Kickstarter backer)After listening to this review I kinda wish the designers would have included their letter to the backers (there was a special thank you letter sent along with the game) in every box. The letter touched on using these stories to remind us that in a day and age where war is romanticised we should remember that war is never pretty. For me as a Christian it's a similar experience as watching the Passion of Christ. It not a movie I got to for entertainment but it always reminds me of the cost. As CS Lewis said, pain is Gods megaphone to rouse a deaf world. Sure that's a little heavy and I wouldn't want games like this to be the majority of my collection. However I'm happy to have this ONE.
One of my favorite solo board games to play. I find it extremely engaging: the base-building, the crafting, the scavenging. It ticks all the boxes for me.
I don’t think I’d break it out for a group game night - the theme is a bit too dark for a group of friends to have fun with, but I would highly recommend it for solo play,
Tom, that may be your most honest, thoughtful review ever. I applaud you for the considerable thought you put into this one. I Kickstartered the game and play the video game sporadically. You're right, it's not one that I will play all of the time, as I'm sure I'll find with the board game. With that said, it is a game I want on my shelf, mainly for solo play. I will not be playing this with my kids, that's for sure. I will be playing it for the challenge and I feel that it is a game that needed supporting. The designers tried to design something different and I believe they succeeded very well. Thanks so much for the incredibly thoughtful review.
That board flip made me feel ill.
Oh god. My heart died a little.
Just picked this up over the weekend. The game is absolutely fantastic! It's VERY powerful in theme and while we're ok with the gore of zombies is ok, war isn't? I guess it's the realism. That's just an observation. Having said that, I can certainly see why it isn't Tom's choice.
In the end, it's a (VERY) dark Choose Your Own Adventure with a success rate akin to your Arkham style games.
I think that if a game can make you stop and think...that's an overall positive experience. Thanks for such a thoughtful review Tom.
I love This War of Mine the video game. It isn't a 'fun' game, but I do enjoy it in a different way, it's thought provoking and engaging.
It is a fun game. You can be a farmer, a thief, a looter, or a serial killer. There are endless ways that you can survive through a war. LOL
Ok Tom, really like your video and think overall this is a good review.
However, I really need to call you on the rules stuff!!! where you say "players can pretty much do what you want" ... In the Journal it says this is a very large, complex and elaborate game and they are that on occasion people may encounter situations that are not clarified by the FAQ. In this situation, players should use common sense and choose an interpretation that best reflects what would happen in the real world. Also, each of the sections in the Journal does have a FAQ reference listed next to them, including board setup, so I have no idea why you have had a major time looking through the rules book for clarification. To give balanced feedback I do understand that a lot of the rules and mechanics are hidden and when you play through your first day you do feel totally lost, I lost track of the amount of time I found myself asking how does everything work. However, once you have played through the first day fully, most of the pieces start to fit together.
I 100% agree with your comments on the theme and the rest of the game but was concerned that people who are considering this game may be put off my your comments that there are no real rules to the game and people "just do what they want" and I personally feel that the game mechanics are pretty well defined and so far I have not come across a situation which I could not clarify.
Oh, the final little point which I am sure can be drastically overlooked. Not sure if you picked up on this Tom. During set-up, you can adjust colour cards deck that determine what stories you are going to encounter in the book of scripts, essentially red and black can be removed from the deck and therefore removing the chance to come across some of the really bad stuff. Not sure how or if this impacts the game but thought I would mention it.
I do wonder if this was D&D or Mansions of Madness themed, hmm would that change things?
Certainly not a game for everyone, but in my opinion, a great game that does come with rules :) Simply thematic game of the year, if not the decade.
I think the developers of this game are going to love this review. Your thoughts are pretty much what they were trying to accomplish.
I, too, found the rules a bit confusing, but in almost every case where we looked something up online or in the faq in the book of scripts it turned out that I was confused because I'm the type that wants to know what everything on every component is FOR ahead of time, and the game documents make you wait and only want to you to do things with information exactly when the game tells you to do something with them (e.g. the script numbers in the colored dots).
However, I have NO idea what Tom picked up that you were supposed to "play however you want." That was not an idea II picked up from anything in the game...
Tom, it's supposed to be depressing. The man who developed the video game lived through the war in Kosovo (IIRC) and it's based on his experiences. So yes, it's not supposed to be rosy and happy. Good review.
I was impressed you played the game! It's not an easy experience to go through... And not something you can succeed at and stay a good person in the game. I knew you were in for a rough one as soon as a saw what game it was, and I'm really impressed that you could say, it's good, but not something you might 'enjoy' playing. It's an experience, and sometimes an exhausting one at that.
it is amazing how much the game has effected you. i am not saying this in judgment but as a testament to the creators. watching the extras and game development of the pc game i had the same humbling experience. the game was made to show the horrors of war. you are not a hero. you are not invincible. war is hell on earth.
keep up the good work Dice Tower. i pick a lot of my games from your reviews.
Reminds me a bit of "Freedom: The Underground Railroad," another co-operative board game about ordinary humans in terrible, soul-destroying circumstances. I don't play Freedom very often but I'm proud to own it, and I suspect TWoM will be the same.
Kudos for this review Tom. I'm really happy you didn't shy away from talking about how the game makes you feel, and gave an honest review.
I got the game like 3 years ago and I remember at that time I was telling myself: This would be a great board game! And then, few years later I learned that they really made a board game out of it :D
5 years after this review, my wife and have have brought a copy and it's spectacular. Grim, complex and atmospheric. It's a similar vibe to the videogame, but not strictly the same gameplay.
Very involving and with a tense feeling throughout, you're constantly making difficult choices trying to call forward as you know you could be dragged back into doom any minute.
It ain't Munchkin! But it is mightily impressive and thought-provoking.
Great review. And it is understandable not wanting to go through the horrors of the war, which the game does in a great manner. It is a piece of art and you gotta be brave to tackle it.
Thanks Tom... I kickstarted this game awhile ago. Pretty excited about playing it.
Board Game Geek has PDF with all rules in one place (login is required): boardgamegeek.com/file/download_redirect/9f056742bdb897fdfaf6f2f783866c7ae08f838e2814be5c/TWOM_Rulebook_FAQs_Low_Ink_V1_1.pdf
Sometimes it's 'good' watch a film like Schindler's list. I enjoy the film.
Plus even in our 24hr news world, the true effects of war are sugar coated. How manys times do you hear about refugees and some people criticising them, without the understanding of what they have left.
great description! depressingly approved like a work of art deep experience. Well done!
I don't quite understand the complaint about the rules. I found the Journal to be a very clear, concise, and structured learning tool, with no hint of "play however you want" as Tom alludes to. Personally I loved the rulebook, but I've seen enough people complain about it to guess that it's just too different to what people are used to (not explaining aspects until they're needed etc).
Yeah, I don't get where he got the Play how you want also. I think this game has very strict rules. Only do what either the journal, faq, or what the cards tell you. Don't assume rules like just picking a number and start reading a script.
Tom completely missed the mark on his review of the rules. No where do the rules say to wing it, or to just play how you want. He should amend the review, because as it stands it's portraying false information.
I was just thinking this. I haven't had any issues with the rules at all. There are advanced rules, but you're not meant to know about them (indicated by the wording on them, that you 'discovered advanced rules').
Fair and well presented review Tom. I can see it being a struggle to be a regular group game - did you mention you can play this solo?
I find that this is a good game to ground you to reality. It's easy to take things for granted and everytime i pull this game out, i start to understand what others go through in real life war situations and it makes you appreciate what you have. It may not be a fun game, but its an insightful one.
After playing this game several times the description that 'players can do whatever they want' as a criticism is totally off . I found this game quite simple to follow. Follow the cards.
I like Tom's comparison with Robinson Crusoe (another difficult to win game) and I think he's spot on in that one is adventurous and trying to survive while TWoM is just trying to live. And living and surviving are two different feels.
Phil Z you and Tom must have played a different Robinson Crusoe. You are just barely surviving at best in RC.
Michael Gardner I think the difference is in Crusoe if you don't have enough food that round you take your hit and maybe next round you get enough but even if you don't the next round it doesn't have that feeling of despair and you continue to survive but in TWoM you don't eat one round and that effects more than just hunger and now if you don't get food again you're in a real heap of trouble which makes living just a goal.
I think it is quite good, when a boardgame goes in another direction and shows the actual cruelty of war and stuff. Most of them glorify war, so this is a new way and thats a good thing.
Its not something for everyone of course. Neither is sad music or actual sad or depressing books. Or movies especially...
This game is obviously about a war...and war cannot be happy. War is depressing. I like the theme here, you can see what people feel during the war.
I play the video game since it's release on Windows, 5 years ago. Happily I found the board game a while ago and finally bought it for myself. The first pro to this game in my opinon is, that it is possible to play as singleplayer. I like the art and it is really the first board game so far, I just could start to play. For me it worked, with the explanations on the flow. But I agree, when something is not clear, it is not really handy to go threw the whole book of scripts. A seperate book of rules would be nice.
What I also want to mention is the possibiblity to use the company app on mobile devices. There you just enter the script number and it will shown on your screen. It reduces tremendously the time you need to search for the scripts. Also the ability to save the game in the app is decent. No need to use the paper sheets for saving anymore. Speaking of wich, I don't like to write on game material, what is kinda neccessary in here for certain events.
Conclusion for me: I love the game. It is a board game, I've waited too long for. But I agree with you, not everyone will have 'fun' with this kind of game. The computer game made me quite depressive in some cases and it shows you relentlessly the consequences of your actions. Maybe some 'Call of Duty Heros' dudes want to play that one at least for one, because: "In war, not everyone is a soldier."
Cheerio.
The Road, the board game
Jaime Lannister grave of fireflies, the board game.
Great review! I think we will soon reach a point when we will have this 'artsy' boardgames for darker moods and light-hearted 'flicky' games for fun and enjoyment, like with books, movies, music and any other form of art!
This is an awesome review. I think Tom did a GREAT job of summing up the ideas. I have it now partly because of this review.
I've played the video game and yes it is sad and horrific in what the characters go through, but that's what I kind of love about the game is that it shows you that side of war. You are going to be hungry, you're going to get sick, your probably going to find someone who is going to fight over whats theirs, and you are probably going to have people who die. But playing the game I did not get depressed...it was just some "Wow" moments with thought provoking playthroughs that I actually reflected on after getting through a game successfully or unsuccessfully. It told a story all the way through, and made you feel like the characters could be real.
As someone who thinks about the horrible side of humanity and reads and see's horrible stuff that happens every day even outside of war, I am ok playing this game. I'm not saying I enjoy any of that, that's far from the truth, I'm just not going to get so down or feeling depressed that I don't want to play this game because of the theme.
It is a single person video game. It is often sold for less than 10 bucks on Steam during its sale weeks. The video game version gives you more freedom, like real combats against bandits and soldiers.
Most moving video game: The Last of Us ... Most moving board game: This War of Mine Played a few game days with my son. Then his brain hurt so solo played the rest. After I “lost” shortly after chapter II, I stood in the living room and just stared at the board. I thought about the timeline, the chronology and the decisions we made. And “how did it come to this?” Experiencing the gamut of emotions is healthy. Embrace the sadness. The Grizzled has a similar theme, surviving with no end in sight. Ultimately they both generate empathy and understanding that is for the most part lost on our generation. Definitely on display on my shelf.
A very thoughtful review. I thought about backing the Kickstarter campaign at the time, but I couldn't bring myself to buying a game that has this theme. As an educational tool about the hardships that civilians have to endure in war, I have no issues with it. As a game I would like to own, then this doesn't qualify. If I want to be confronted with the gruesomeness of war, I will watch the news. If I want to play a game, I have 100 good choices on my shelves.
From the description of how it plays, I got the feeling that it's like Arkham/Eldritch Horror mixed up with Dead of Winter.
Abotu the rules, in this case, the rules, and how they expand, work.
Why ?
Because that also simulates the idea of war and survival.
You will keep learning, finding people and materials, and have to figure out what you can and cannot do and how. It simulates the change of the way of life, survival.
This game, and the original, were made to show people the horrors of war. Not to have fun, but to understand. It's like me watching Band of Brothers. Sure, great action, but is it fun ? No, it is interesting, it catches you, gives you great heroism with horrible things to find and see. It grips you.
Where is the line between surviving, and condemning others by stealing their stuff, when you can see they also are lacking in food, medicine, but you also need it, do you trade, do you steal, do you kill. How far are you willing to go ? And in some games it really doesn't matter, just kill, just steal, it often doesn't really matter, because the game is limited, with this, that's a little different, more so in the digital version. How far do you think you want to go to survive, and how far do you need to go to survive, and will you ?
It's a lame thing to say, but, it is a bit of an experience
That said, i do think the digital game is better for it, it being single player as well.
Tom, this was a really thoughtful review. I appreciate you tackling the pros and cons of such an unusual game. Think I will pass on it, but I thought the "art" analogy was good. With all the refugees in the world right now, I have to applaud the creators for bringing attention to the subject matter of those caught in the middle. Could be a good educational tool.
What is said about the board game is also true about the computer game. And look how popular it is! Meaning that fun (which goes hand in hand with games) does not have a single happy face. I could make the same review with exactly the same thoughts, just shifting the balance, and having a different feeling. In the end what Tom said is very true. It's an excellent game. Just know what you're getting. We consume art, music, cinema, litterature etc. that we like. Yet that is not always "fun". Still we like it. In this golden age of board gaming there's is a place for similar games. I would buy it, though I don't know if the poeple that i play with will want to play it, for the intensions alone. It' s well done too. So much the better.
First off, you can't wing the rules. I don't know where you got that impression. It's plainly a misunderstanding. Second, dark emotions aren't bad. When we play this game, we often laugh. Not funny laughs, but laughs of despair and frustration. We go: "oh this is so unfair, it's beautiful". It's like watching Sofies choice or Donnie Darko. Or Shindlers List as some one mentioned. You wouldn't want to live these experiences yourself, but you relish the experience of the narrative, and see the beauty of it. When playing this game, you feel something. Life is more than comedies. Thirdly, your review is missing the most important thing about this game. The big picture. What it means to the evolution of boardgames. This War of Mine is not just entertainment. It is a deliberate attempt to create a work of art with a bordgame as the medium. They developers want to tell you something. Or rather, they want you to start thinking about the subjekt of war. It's a game with a message and that is new to my knowledge. At least to this extend. And this means board games have leveled up. It reminds me of when roleplaying games "grew up" in the 90's. Suddenly, they had more depth. And This War of Mine is part of the same trend for boardgames. It's probably not the only one. I know Fog of Love is coming up, that also has an artistic intent. Now, is it for everyone? Surely not. It's kind of like a French movie. Only a few of your friends would watch that over a summer blockbuster. But you know that the film industry is probably improving for have this broarder scope. I have played TWoM 5 times now and lost in all of the games. I WILL be playing it again. Not to win, but to have new players experience the game and see them go: "This is so unfair. War is stupid".
If you lost five times in a row you are not playing by the rules. Read all the rules carefully. It is a pain in the ass on how it is all set up but the game should be winnable more than 40% of the time. Also, feel free to use save states and wing the rules however you want. the devs said in the book that winging the rules is ok. They even gave some examples, like eating pets for example.
@@jgtogi6839 If you win 40% of the time YOU are not playing by the rules. I came close once in 10 games. Don't forget that you must finish the game with at least 1 of the STARTING characters, not just any characters.
I love this game. Possibly, my favorite game I've Kickstarted.
Set-up time vs game experience is always a consideration. Two other game that come to mind are Dead of Winter and Outlive. It seems all three games are survival type games, but with different mechanics, rules, set-up time, etc. and narrative focus and maybe depressing-vs-happiness balance or "levels" of survival. (And then there are other post-apocolyptic setting games like 51st State and Armageddon.)
I can set this game up in about 5 minutes thanks to the great insert. I know i can't say the same for DoW.
Fantastic review Tom. Your mental grappling with how to recommend this game came across very well.
This game is amazing (the computer one, have not played the board game, but by your explanation is quite faithful)... But you are completelly right, this game is not made and not meant to be happy... The computer game, even when you win the storyline is sad and sometimes even the characters that survived do not have happy endings... An I mean, it is how war is, right, the after war moral is a solder that is condecorated by he's country for killing a lot of other human beings, sometimes children, than returning home and not finding a job, dealing with all the trauma that war brings to him, depression, anxiety, death wish, killing sick, hard memories... I played the game a couple of times myself, it;s a great game, sometimes I feel like playing it again, but than yet, I am not sure I want to.... Congratulations for this review, it is very true and very good... I would also recommend the game, in my personal opinion is a A+ title and it really does what it was meant to do.... You got yourself a like and subscriber since I love board games....
Too many war games glorify the violence and the myth of the hero. I think a war game that is depressing and shows the civilian reality of war zones is surprisingly refreshing. It may not feel good, but could feel profound, like movies about the holocaust or something.
I'm on an iPad can someone tell me where to go to see the instructions on how to play this game
great video, love the videogame, nos waiting for mi KS copy!
8:28 Ahhhhhhhhh please don't do that!
My taste in games are generally dark. War & murder. Call me morbid, but I think I'll like this game.
I cant wait to get my hands on this game.
The board looks insane with all those cards.
The mess of cards is one of the things that had me drop my pledge. I can't imagine often wanting to spend 30 minutes setting up a depressing experience. I think it looks really interesting though.
I own it now. It's not "depressing" anymore than say Schindler's List is depressing...lol...I didn't find the classic 1993 movie depressing...I found it exhilarating. Same goes with This War. It does have a mess of cards though.
Game takes about 10 minutes to set up your first game. Quicker after that. I can set up the game in about 5 minutes now. Everything is clearly labeled as to where it goes. Super easy.
Tom... I understand your final thoughts, but "Dead of Winter" isn't exactly "Up with people". I was attracted to this game, as a writer, as a possible RPG that might teach me something. I Kickstarted this game as a challenge. I do understand your ideas of being depressed, and not wanting to play it again.
Ironically, research has shown that in conditions such as those in this game, people behave better. Crime drops, suicide and depression levels drop, and people generally cooperate. Check out Sebastian Junger's "Tribe" for the entry-level skinny.
I think you nailed the review and told exactly what the game is about. It's dark, depressing and players are barely surviving at best.
However I love that the game slaps dilemma's in your face about what to do next, everyone should have at least played the boardgame (and videogame) once just to experience it.
Much as I love board games I can't see this one being better than the PC game. You are spending so much time and effort to move the narrative forward with the board game which could make it a drag. The game is "fun" and "enjoyable" in the same sense that you might enjoy a movie about the holocaust, or any war movie really. A lot of bad things happen obviously in those kinds of movies yet characters can survive given determination and luck. Same with the game, often you will lose but that makes the few times you win all the more satisfying.
Tom Vasel, I im really curious if you have the same feelings about it being dark and glum, when you play Dead Of Winter tld
Let me get a couple of things about "This War of Mine" out of the way: I think it's a great idea and one of the most effective videogames I've played in a while, it's meant to deliver a message and it does that in a great way. It's meant to put you in the shoes of a victim, rather than living a power fantasy.
However, when I decided not to back the kickstarter for this boardgame there was one mayor concern and this review seem to confirm it: the boardgame struggles too hard to be just like the videogame. I think that the game is actually too involved and it should have simplified some of the ideas of his predecessor, rather than sticking so close to the original.
I backed out of the Kickstarter for the same reason. The board game was trying too hard to include everything in the video game.
They are actually far more different that Tom suggests. I put 100 hours into the PC game and finished all the scenarios.
A big difference, is the PC game is easy to crack. Once you have been to a location, it is the same every time. This is not true in the boardgame. Exploration in this game is a truly unique experience of pushing your luck and risk management.
There are also objectives and events that do not happen in the PC game, and a lot more variety in encounters and interactions.
It is a rare case of the boardgame actually offering more content and more variety than the PC version. More stories, more game modes and scenarios, more available actions in general, and very much without an "optimal path" like the PC game.
Greatly enjoyed this review, especially the final thoughts. I only know the steam game and I struggled with the same thoughts. I knew I was playing something intriguing and exceptionally well made, but for the life of me I can't find a single reason to play it again.
Agree with you about the video game. I played it once, and I don't think I even came close to "winning." But, I have no desire to play the game again.
To me it sounds a lot like Dead of Winter, minus the zombies. Anyone else get that impression as Tom was doing his review?
I was thinking the same thing. Maybe its just the almost monotone colour scheme/dirty drab look to the board. The book of scripts reminds me of Tales of the Arabian Nights. But hopefully more streamlined. I love lots of theme in games, but not the stop-go-stop-go of ToAN. Maybe I'll try the app. :D
I have both, and they are very different. Dead of Winter has the semi-competitive element of completing your own goal and forming your own faction. And its quite gonzo, with wonder dogs, mall santa and secret bio facility zombies. It feels like you are playing a zombie movie, so the horror is distant.
This War is utterly and totally grounded in reality. Its' fully cooperative, and the horror doesn't come from zombies eating people, but from the harsh brutality of the inside of a siege city. Sarejevo, Alleppo, Leningrad, that sort of horror.
I have both. I get way different feelings from playing these 2. I can't even really compare them, they feel and play so different for me.
I just bought Dead of Winter TLD and am wondering if this is going to be a better game
Reason to watch a review after a playthrough: to see how someone else feels after playing the game. (Personally, I'm hoping this will replace Dead of Winter with my gaming group, but it's not coming out until Dead of Winter gets requested)
Both amazing games. Really heavy tho, but it's a good thing, it really puts what we have into perspective.
I think the theme sounds fascinating. But I am concerned that the rulebook apparently plays fast and loose with the rules like Myth did.
I have the game and there really isn't an issue with the rules like he says. In no way does it say anywhere about playing however you want. There are rules in this game just like any other game but it's just laid out differently. The creators were trying something different, instead of reading the rules for 20 minutes to your gaming group, in this game you just start playing and learning rules as you go. Not everyone will like it but I think it worked pretty well.
If we go with "Games as Art", then games don't need to be fun, but they should be compelling. Watching Schindler's List isn't fun, but it is compelling. Playing the game might not be "fun" in a traditional sense, but it sounds compelling.
I understand why Tom brought up the "despair" part of the game, but I see no problem with it. This is what war is like. If you are able to joke all the time when you are playing a war game, then it may be okay for a younger audience, but imo it's doing the theme wrong. After all the game is appropriately labeled 18+.
Wow thanks for the warning!
What about the mobile app???
I think this would be a good educational game. Its not a board game night game, where you want to be socializing.
The video game works more because you play it by yourself, its a personal experience. I feel like the board game would not only be depressing from the theme of the game, but also shame/being uncomfortable as you make moral choices as part of a group.
Sounds like a fair review.
My KS copy is just about to arrive so I can't wait to be depressed.
I want to get this game but I just know I would have the same problem. I get that it's not supposed to be fun & uplifting and more of an 'experience' but trying to find people who would want to play this theme of game with me would be tough, and solo is only so much fun up to a point. War is war, but Games are games at the end of the day.
I love this video game. I especially love playing with the child characters, as heartrending as that makes it. But I disagree that the board game is like the video game. I've played literally at least 80 hours of the video game. I play it by myself. I lose myself for hours. And it destroys me, but it's just me. I'm able to just burrow on in. So, I think that's the first reason I don't really enjoy the board game. Even when it's only my partner and I playing a two-player game, the dynamic is different. Additionally, I think that the rules of the board game changed a lot of what made the video game so accessible. It's a hard topic, so the rules need to be extra clear and simple so that the focus is on surviving the war. That's why the point and click works so well for the video game. Also, the board game made things like water and food much less accessible than the video game. And yes, things should be hard to access. It's a Civil War. But I thought the rarity in the video game was much more valid, and allowed for harder decisions when you found food while scavenging. The board game makes it harder to find food in general. In your house, scavenging, and when rolling to find an extra scavenging good. I'm really not impressed. It's not engrossing for me, it's off-putting. Not because of the topic, not because it's a war. Because of the mechanics.
there is a place for sobering game experiences. too much war triumphalism and fetishism. as specific experiences they are important, just like profound movies...though the ludic aspect of being implicated in the horror is different than the voyeurism of purely visual arts. still v important and kudos to creators for taking on theme. that being said I have no urge to play the boars game but own and still haven't yet played the computer game, will be soon.
The game comes with a campaign and 2 scenerio's. The campaign is three 2to2.5hr sessions and what you will play first. Scenerios are one off sessions with some special rules.
Went and played my KS copy after watching this review. I'd been putting it off as my dog had knocked the open box off the table and the mass of chits and bits and cards were mixed up.
I can definitely understand Toms take here, and, honestly for anyone who watches many of his reviews, would you expect anything else? This touches on content both timely and relevant and considerably darker than almost any other game out there - every game out there? I cant think of a darker game. I certainly 100% know that feeling he's talking about and how it's easiest comparison is to powerful and impactful movies that most people aren't likely to watch again. I don't mind the dark and dreary world presented here, at least not yet, after one "play-through". That said there were certainly some shocking moments and the constant beatdown your characters suffer is relentless. I wonder (I didn't track the KS notes and thoughts too closely) if this is why players down have their own character, it may have been a choice to pull players as much as possible away from being attached to a single character. There were some times where I just went "nope, that's too much" not only for my characters but for my enjoyment of the game when my characters encountered something. While I did punish them accordingly I refused to keep the punishing effect in play so it would happen again after a bad dice roll decided whether it should be removed or not.
The rule choice was interesting but inevitably did not quite make it there as Tom notes. The "Journal" jump in and play is so *almost* there. It actually IS there if they had simply just should printed a "advanced rules reference" in a similar manner - i think they could have pulled it off in 4-6 pages of a small journal sized book with some nice icon references with a glossary or index. It became extremely frustrating trying to hunt down what Meds and Bandages did when I was presented with a choice to apply them to characters but had no understanding of their application manner, value, pros, cons, etc. I literally ended up flipping through the script book 1 page at a time reading every grey shaded area. This was a common problem throughout my play-through.
We'll see. Contrary to how it may look I felt setup was very straightforward and quick. That was also after sorting all my chits and bits. Those of you getting ready to play may pre-sort your chits/bits as designated in the book before any people joining you arrive. Play was smooth until you hit a question on something you had to hunt down. Finally though, the game is insanely hard. My characters all died (committed suicide) before I made it to chapter 2 (there are 3 chapters). Knowing a little more after playing several rounds I certainly will try and adjust my play on the next go but I thought I was making some solid choices and I didn't take on fights unnecessarily even though the game makes those choices weigh heavily on your conscience.
A game based off the 1993 Sarajevo seige is depressing? Could of fooled me
Sounds like the theme is strong enough to be immersive if Tom is noticing the death and destruction which many games have, but he doesn't in them. But how can you call it a good game if you can't even find rules? You can't. Seriously, why would he approve a game he couldn't even figure out the rules for? Insane.
Seems like the board game nailed perfectly its purpose of narrating a story of war, which is incredibly miserable like all stories of war. Maybe even more than the videogame, where if you know what you're doing it becomes a walk in the park and loses some of its appeal. The question really is: do you have a gaming group that is able to play this game in the spirit it was meant to be played and not get crushed by it? Sad experiences are also important experiences - and I love This War of Mine videogame exactly because of that - but not everyone wants to meet with friends and do something that makes them sad. Quoting Fallout: War, War never changes. I just feel lucky I'm far far away from any of those.
Great Review Tom. I did not seem to have the same trouble with the rules as you did but I can for sure see how this could happen. I ran into very few rules questions and when I did I found a "Rule Book" someone on BGG put together so I didn't have to go searching through the Book of Scripts. I am loving this game.
How to say something profound over a game that is simply PROFOUND. Perhaps every world leader, and every soldier or militant should be made to sit down and play this game. You will get invested in your character, and then likely see them die. The life lessons are VALUABLE. War isn't fun. The innocent are thrown into a maelstrom. Do they adapt, and perpetrate harm on others in the name of survival? Or do they struggle, try to be moral, and likely die. This game helps all of us get a glimpse of this. Fun it is not. Worthwhile "playing" YES. Perhaps the Schindlers List of Boardgames. Once is enough. As others have said, maybe every high school student should play and then write a report on it. Thank you for reviewing.
So, what I'm getting here - It's a good game that's aiming for something other than fun, and succeeds at that, despite an atrocious rules layout?
When i played i was getting sader and sader but that was perfect game
the game is based in the war of Yugoslavia and I think specifically Bosnia.
I almost backed this game, but the over all intensity of the theme made me pass. There is just so much stress, pain, and anxiety going on today. Our world feels more and more on edge as war and terrorism are beating us down daily. I am sure it is a good game, but I know it would leave me with an extra layer of nausea and dread on top of daily issues and hopelessness purported by the media. I do not need a game tot each me how disgustingly barbaric everything around war is. I do hope that those who backed it end up enjoying their game though, its just not for me. Maybe I am just weak, but it is what it is.
So it's like watching Requiem for a dream?
War. In reality, it's a tough subject. And in reality, it's depressing. Sounds like this game does what it set out to do, show what war does to people.
I played the video game a few times, and it was tough and depressing. Sounds like the board game does the same thing.
and who said that war was a happy game? courage now boy!!!! survive!!!!!
fantastic review
Bought it. Played it.
It has some pretty sweet ideas. It comes down as a poor experience as a game.
By design this is supposed to be a game. It has boardgame written on the cover of the box, however, it tries to be 2 things at once and does bad job at both. It tries to be a novel and tries to be 2 different games at once. This doesn't combine well.
The game is more about the journey of a maximum number of 4 locals who are trying to survive a war period during the autumn-winter seasons. The ending is about these characters (who may or may not change as the game goes on) with each getting a short paragraph that doesn't really lead to anything satisfying.
The game outright is built to undermine everything you accomplish in the largest degree possible without ways to prevent them. It becomes less a game as nothing you do really matters. Progress forward is undone far more readily and quickly than you could establish.
Throughout the game, the players will be referring to a narrative element and may need to make choices. What this offers is the biggest downfall in my opinion. There's pointless sections of just descriptive text that does nothing for the game. There are moments when the choices are vague and only if you choose them do you realize you aren't doing what you thought you would be doing. There are moments where you get no chance at all to avoid disaster. i will list 2 I've encountered out of the many just to demonstrate my point:
Characters are in a building and hear sounds of boots approaching. Systematically they hear rooms being searched (I can't recall if gun fire is heard). The choices were, brace yourself for whatever is coming or jump out the window (several stories high and cement on the floor below.
Bracing yourself leads to instant death. You are not given a chance to fight or even talk. Doesn't matter if you had several characters there who were armed to the teeth with gear suitable for a fight.
Jumping out the window, now there is a poor use of words. Rather than what would come to mind the text states after making the choice that the characters climb to the window of the room below this one - THAT is not jumping out the window.
There is an event card that makes you lose all your green items (which are mostly food). It doesn't matter how many you had, you lose all of them.
It didn't inspire despair in me. It inspired frustration in how much the game gives a you a few toys, yanks them away from you slapping your wrists and then repeats that process. the challenge is not caring about anything and just doing random stuff because of this way it plays.
Don't compare this to the computer game. They are two different games with entirely different way of doing similar things. The video game is more stupid in it's design than the boardgame. Neither game is really dark. Annoying, yes. I ruined the computer game for someone when I pointed out all the really stupid design choices that were made in it. They asked for my opinion and they got it with my reasoning.
I guess it's "compelling dread"?
War is not a game... This is the inconvenient truth that this game is set to lay bare. When war is glorified, abstracted into mechanical rules, or when the cold reality of its senseless violence is ignored in a game, it can make it look more acceptable, more "human". But it never is acceptable.
I really like the computer game. It's my type of war game.
Too bad this has issues with rules, I can't bring a game this confusing to my group.
Play it solo first to learn the rules. It works fine solo.
I have the game and there really isn't an issue with the rules like he says. In no way does it say anywhere about playing however you want. There are rules in this game just like any other game but it's just laid out differently. The creators were trying something different, instead of reading the rules for 20 minutes to your gaming group, in this game you just start playing and learning rules as you go. Not everyone will like it but I think it worked pretty well.