Some players feel silly, or lack confidence, then some adults have forgotten how to play make believe. Some simply do not want to play, but do, because their friends are. Some worry about looking stupid, and some really, really don't want to play.
For that level of beginner, or to introduce the concept, I describe the game as "Let's pretend with rules. You'll create a character to play, like in a movie or TV show, but there is no script. You decide what your character will try to do. The rules are just there to keep everything fair."
Sometimes asking “what do you do?” Is a paralysing. Instead introduce positive punishment by foreshadowing a danger. Imagine a big boss fight video game. you enter their lair, their fight sequence activates and they start their attack animation. You character has a ‼️symbol on their head and an area of effect indicator is on the floor showing their club is about to slam that position. if you don’t react you will be slammed by their big attack. I recommend you Foreshadow the hazard, is coming whether they act or not and narrate they have moments to avoid it. Give them a freebie with a super low dc so it kicks in, but doesn’t one hit their character
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I truly appreciate your experience and perspective. My experience related to players having problems with story immersion depends on the player. For example, my 10 year old daughter originally had problems as she had expected the rules or her character limit her choices. To address this I would play a "game" where we toss the character sheet away and role play a story. This helped her to realize that TTRPGs can be the same as story telling (although some GMs are terrible about this). In game I try to break it down similar to what you said, "you see someone beating u an old lady. What would you like to do?" focusing on the player and drilling down to expand their choices based on the specific actions they want to do. And with regards to very creative players (like my daughter) try hard not to tell them they cannot do something but say something like "what are you trying to do?" to help them talk through their actions. Hope this helps!
Not to be ornery, or glib, but I recommend talking about it with your player. Sometimes that very simple solution is better than trying to anticipate or mitigate a player. they'll let you know if they were having fun or not, and you can let them know if they need to engage more to make the game work, or if you're good having the kids drive the game forward. Some folk are just happy to be in the seat without the spotlight, but it's good to set expectations with a chat. Best of luck with future games!
@@pranefuji thank you so much. And thank you for the great advice - I think you’re right, talking with them will be best and also letting them play the games they like… I suspect that RPGs may not be their thing.
Sadly, many people are so accustomed to passive entertainment that their imagination has atrophied. I see it in both kids and adults. It may be that, or it could simply be that they are a bit self-conscious. Some players leap out of their seats and act out what their character is doing, speaking in character, etc. Others will narrate in the third person. Maybe it's the setting. It could also be analysis paralysis. It may help to have a limited selection of possible actions until they become more accustomed to deciding on their own.
This is very accurate- I think you are correct about your assessment. I like the idea of having written down some “choices” in advance to help the players get started.
@@FamilyTableTop The old gold box D&D games provided approaches for interacting with random encounters rather than concrete descriptions of dialogue or actions: Nice, Meek, Haughty, Sly, and Abusive. Something similar might help ease people into making decisions in a very indirect, non-immersed way: "Does [character name] react to the provocation aggressively, or do they give the appearance of being cowed, or do they just refuse to have any visible reaction?"
The first session or two makes the difference. The more she plays, the less self conscious she'll be. Also, I wonder if her family are not keen on TTRPGs. Some folks fear the hobby.
@@FamilyTableTop that, too. Plus for many, who grew up with video games, they're not used to the video game asking for their input and reactions. I have a friend in his fifties, who struggles to read. He's also very reluctant to take any lead outside of a very narrow range (Hulk smash!). The man loves playing, but it can be like pulling teeth to get him to "play". He almost always defers to other players.
I'll tap a personal example. I come from a deeply Christian family. Both grandparents, half of my aunts and uncles were preachers. In the early 80s there was this thing called the Satanic Panic. My mom was convinced by some TV preachers that D&D was my path to literal hell.i came home from school and mom made me watch as she burned my 1st edition copies. I'd mowed lawns, shoveled manure, and ordered most of them out of catalogs. My grandpa heard of this and came over to talk to my mom. He was a fire and brimstone, Bible throwing preacher... It's just a game, he said. He's a good kid. The next day mom gave me some money to replace the books. Sadly they'd changed the covers. I still have them. Society etc, doesn't always understand the hobby or its attraction. Mostly out of ignorance. Personally, I think what you are doing is a good thing, and that your young player will grow confident in time and that will carry her through life.
@@yourseatatthetable I understand what you mean -this hobby gets mistaken for many different things, both good and bad. Outside Perception about a hobby or interest is often skewed by differing first principles. For example: I am a Christian. I understand the things your mom was concerned about but I think I would side with your grandfather. God can do whatever He wants - if he wants to bring someone to Jesus through TTRPGs - then He will do that, and no one will stop Him. But I understand the point of your story and the frustration that must have caused you.
@@FamilyTableTop In all honesty, it was so long ago that I cannot remember what most of my feelings were at the time. Mostly confusion and worry that I'd somehow made my mom mad. She'd never had an issue with them before, and she didn't see my West End Games Star Wars and other games supplements as a problem, for which I am very glad because Judges Guild was rare even then.
Yeah, one hole in a lot of small-market RPGs is that they don't really account for somebody who shows up to be social but not necessarily to play. For all its faults D&D has certain builds that can be pretty much autopiloted and if one person isn't paying attention or thinking about the story, that's not a big deal as long as most of the party is. In this case it sounds like you've got someone who needs to be there to keep an eye on their kid, and unless they come to you about really wanting to play, trying to get them to do something they're not motivated to do is probably just not going to go well for you.
@@Glazius7 I think that probably right, which is a bummer because it would be fun to get him to play something like this with his kids - I know his son loves TTRPGs and his daughter would probably get the hang of it quickly
It was cool of the guy to bring his daughter so she could play and participate; just him being there was neat because he could be there to support her and enjoy watching her play; so even just being a "parent observer" at the table instead of a player would be a great reason for him to be there. It sounds like the issue was, did he actually want to play, and was just unfamiliar/uncomfortable with it, or was he just there for her and *you* kinda wanted him to try playing? If the later, just let him enjoy her playing. If the former: he might be uncomfortable with improv, portraying a character (that can make a lot of people feel "silly"), and maybe having his daughter there made him feel extra self-conscious. Making him comfortable and relaxed, letting his minimal participation be fine, not keeping the spotlight on him where he feels awkward, gives I'm the chance to get used to it and gradually participate more. Your job is not to make sure everyone is having a blast, and you're not failing if he is only moderately invested. Maybe let go of how you imagined it going and just let it be what it is, and if anything he might grow with it over time.
That is excellent advice, thank you. I really like the way you presented multiple solutions to varying problems. As I was reading your comment I was thinking, “did I spotlight him?” - “yeah, a little.” I think there was a little of column A and B, so your problem/solution approach is very helpful. Thank you for explaining this.
Tried having a conversation about it with the dude one on one? Could be just embarrassed to let loose. I've told one friend hey were already sitting at a table playing make believe, the time for embarrassment is long past, we're all nerds now. Helped put him at ease. Could be analysis paralysis hoping his next move might be considered stupid or not meta? Could put that at ease. I'd also let them know that the more you put in the more you'll get out of it, plus it provides fuel for you to bring more. It's the collaboration!
@@VicSicily I did talk with him a little bit about the problem - he just said that it wasn’t his type of game. He thinks he’d be more interested in war games… I think that’s part of it but I you you’re right, it’s embarrassment, or something similar
@@FamilyTableTop probably. Take him to a wargame store where they simulate the charging battle cries while they're playing and he might quickly return to playing at your table haha. Maybe it isn't for him, but try having the talk and openly bring up the idea of being embarrassed. If he says that it is part of thst, as I said everyone is already nerding out by playing make believe to begin with might as well roll with it. Alternately, maybe it's not for him and the games will flow better without him for all parties involved. I've got two brand new players I'm starting my campaign for tomorrow night, I'm hoping they like it and I'm hoping I don't mess it all up, but I am fully prepared that they say nah it's not for me. It doesn't have to be, but it will be cool if it is.
I think some folk just don't dig this type of game. In some cases they are there for the social reasons and the game is almost coincidental. Years back I played with a group, one of which I thought they would be the one to really get into things. But they just couldn't for some reason. He played one game and then dropped out. He had been keen on things before he played. Something just didn't work for him. I've also played with a reluctant player who was there because their friends were. It was a Call Of Cthulhu game. Was MVP for the session, went mad and loved it. You can only do so much, the hobby isn't for everyone.
@@FamilyTableTop playing a Victorian era game (Call Of Cthulhu 4th edition). They were a key investigator in many interactions with NPC, chose wisely during some exploration, excellent intimidation roll and roleplay with a particularly stubborn lawyer, failed lockpicking when it was actually best not to go through a door, then failed a sanity check when exposed to a fairly unpleasant eldritch horror. A game that we still talk about. Top stuff.
That situation can be frustrating at times. I have found some people just don't want to roleplay and rather stay in 3rd person. That is fine, we all play differently. As long as they are playing and having a good time is what matters most.
I'd suggest asking them to describe their favourite character from a movie or book. What do you like about them? Their bravery, cleverness, sense of honour? Then ask them for five words to describe the character they want to be. Make them write those words down on their sheet. When you are asking them for actions you can remind them of the five words and they can help prompt ideas...is your character scared? Can your character think of a way to help? Should we keep the gems or return them to the temple they came from?
You should do a one on one with him. Make an NPC character to play as a helper. Build a simple scenario to help his mind around the concept of (you can do anything) when things are about to happen or when he get stuck in his head have the NPC ask him questions about what to do or have the NPC get in to trouble where he has to deal with it.
Could be social anxiety, Sometimes it's something else. You could make up simple Action Cards and they can pick one or two for their move. Some of the cards could have Prompts to help them kickstart their imagination or decide their path like in a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure style. Kids can sometimes respond when they have 3 options to choose from. Then once they get their wheels going they will maybe spark on their own. Sometimes kids are like kindling.
You can take the mule to the water, but can't make it drink. Still, "roleplaying" is many things. But, the most important one, is making decisions with the character in mind.
There is a wonderful video by Matthew Colville titled "Different Kinds of Players | Running the Game". He describes different types of players and what makes them tick. There are some players he describes as Audience Members or Casual Gamers who are just happy to be there and while it seems like they're not engaging they're still having fun. I think the way he frames it is just genius and absolutely worth a watch.
@@FamilyTableTop Glad you enjoyed it. The fun of this hobby is bumping into other GM's and assimilating different styles as you form your own. In my early days I learned a ton from Matt's Running The Game Series. Ben Milton at Questing Beast also completely revolutionized how I view the game.
This topic is a common one. Many new players want to play, but don't know how. It's these sorts of people who are a large part of my stance on 4D roleplay.
@@FamilyTableTop boy, I was afraid you'd ask. A bit more convoluted than txt can handle. In essence, there are folks in the hobby striving for full immersion. The idea of 4D is that the table focuses fully on what some are calling, ICAC - in character, as character. No system checks or questions, no or as little dice rolls as possible. Nothing to distract the players from being in character. So: 1D = boardgames, many wargames, etc. 2D is what most new players experience. d&D is often played at its basic level; 3D is where most "experienced" players are, in my opinion. If I remember when I get home from work I'll post a couple YT videos on the topic if your interested.
@@FamilyTableTop In a way, yes. Here's a video from a fellow whose group is deep into this quest for full immersion. ruclips.net/video/DN6OTCSCXlg/видео.html Rick, (I'm also a Rick), whose video it is, is a stanch believer in total immersion. Now, not this guy, but others, push the idea to the point of what I consider to be elitism; something I deeply feel is being a bad representative for the hobby as a whole. In 'some' groups minds, there would be no room for your young players or my friend, Kenny, because they'll ask questions; want to toss dice; and all the other wonderful stuff that goes along with 'the system' we're choosing to play.
An interesting side: LARPing goes way back. Ever heard of a Braunstein game? It was created by an associate of Gary Gygax about the same time he was introducing his Chainmail combat system. Some consider it the beginning of the RPG's that we know and love to share. ruclips.net/video/onO8Lx_7dyU/видео.html This video is From 'Daddy Rolls a One' (no matter how many times I say his channel's name a can't help but cringe a bit). My videos on the subject are crap, in my opinion.
We might also watch other players and the group dynamic in relation to 'quiet' players. Maybe one or two other players with more experience are unintentionally quarterbacking or sucking the "imaginative air" out of the other player who is not as quick, experienced, or not as imaginational extroverted. My experience was that as I was forming the scene and ideas, others are already over the top with actions interventions (some of which are not in keeping with our characters) that I have to dump my ideas and just play along. Great thoughts and questions in your videos, thanks
Thank you so much… that actually really helps. We were not playing the game with “initiative” out of combat - it probably would have been better for me to go around the table and have everyone take turns…
To not JUST be the diegetic police :) You could break down player engagement into 3 broad categories: Speaking In Character, Acting In Character, Planning Out-of-Character. The goal is to get them doing these things proactively without prompting and some will take to that like fish to water, but often - as you describe with the young girl - you must prompt them. And in general it's things like a) NPCs ask them a question - so you prompt them to speak, b) Trigger a situation that demands a physical response and ask "what do you do" c) another player engages them in OOC dialogue about what they should do. Clearly you are doing this already - but consider the urgency of each. So having the merchant ask them if they want their patented cure-all elixir is low urgency, but having the town guard draw steel and demand to know their purpose is pretty urgent. I think the trick is to focus on those things that they can't just ignore. It's about jump starting their motor. You did it with the girl by prompting her with an action need. Because this was an adult not engaging, it means you can escalate a bit more aggressively. So if the town guard drops their halberd to block their way and demands to know their purpose and they don't say something - the guard can call over backup, crowd or push them, make fun of them. Signal to the player if they don't do something it will be bad. You can break it into a binary option if needed. "The guard is demanding to know your purpose, are you answering him or trying to walk away?" Then press for more when they pick one. Or maybe that prompts them to ask you a question like "I'm confused, what is my purpose?" Which is great because that's maybe getting at why they're not doing anything.
Those are all great actionable solutions to the problems I faced yesterday - and since I will likely be encountering the issue again, that gives me a lot to work with. Thank you. 😊
Have you already reached out to that person, asking about his experience with it? Like if he felt uncomfortable or something? In my oppinion, the best way to engage a player to any game is to try to be supportive. Asking about how they felt about the game or situation they were in might be a good step there
I did talk with him, since I really would like to be able to engage with him in games - he said that he doesn’t think that RPGs are his thing… So, I’m planning on teaching him how to play Space Station Zero - it’s a campaign wargame. Since there no “acting” or pretending I think it might be up his alley. But I’m still looking for ideas to help engage a player with a TTRPG game.
@@FamilyTableTop first question popping up in my mind now is, what aspect of his RPG experience to be not his thing. RPG is not one cemented shape thing, but consists of so many facettes, where elevating specific ones might help. If space station zero helps, maybe he needs more visual representation of environments, just to give one example here. But again, I guess to make someone engage more with the topic, it would be helpful to know their interests first. Hope this was helpful :)
It sounds like a lack of excitement / investment on the players side. That's not necessarily yours or the game's fault. Like you said, some people just don't like role-playing. Or for example, I don't care for most sports. There's not much the games can do to make me invested, it's just not my cup of tea. It could also be a perception thing. If your buddy is playing with his kid(s) and your kid(s) maybe he's just perceiving a game like Mausritter to feel like something for kids, whereas he might have enjoyed your darker, grittier ShadowDark game better. I also have a player or two whose eyes glaze over after an hour if they don't get to swing a sword at something 😂 Everyone enjoys this hobby for different reasons and it's often hard to please everyone.
You don't need to do voices to role play a character. If one is shy, just let them describe their actions and dialogues in 3rd person. Give them time to "break the ice" if that makes sense
@@FamilyTableTop I was able to start doing it only recently as a DM, and I have been playing TTRPGs for like 12 years (with a couple of years off, to be fair). It takes time for shy people. I'm referring to doing voices/acting, not speaking in 1st person in character. That should be easier.
@@FamilyTableTop I just overcame the shame I felt when doing voices. Also, what helped was changing the gaming group. The people I started with are my friends, but I grew up with them, so I feel more shy to act silly around them. The games we played were more "throw some dice and do some maths" with some dialogues in the background. Not very RP-ish. We were young to be fair.
Explain how the game works: "Your character can do absolutely anything in this world, but keep in mind that your actions have consequences. Now, tell me something that you love to do..." Then I take that answer I relate their character doing that action. Progress slowly through the game, taking time to do the same type of things with the player (first combat): "You see three rats up ahead that are pushing and shoving an elderly mouse between them. Tell me something funny you would say when you see someone doing something funny." Then take that answer and have their character do exactly that with great success (in the beginning). The character's next action when his/her turn comes back around will have a little more consequence. That time, the rat will respond - maybe pushing the PC or threatening them. Always give the PC the room to step into their character's shoes and take action at their pace. When they dive in & strike - let them win & be the one that saves the day. Make them the hero for the moment & let them celebrate. This kind of approach builds lifelong role-players. The world needs a new generation of those. Hope this helps!
This helps a lot. Any chance you work with kids?… have kids? I like the idea of asking questions about adjacent experiences. That’s helpful for creating story precedence and player agency in the story.
Before you get to the table with players... how well do you know your players and their experiences with TTRPGs... a professional poker player once said the most important skill to learn is when entering a room of poker players at the table is being able to choose the right table to play at... I know that example doesn't completely fit your question but knowing your players, knowing their likes/dislikes starts well before ever sitting down to play a game.
Sounds like your friend is more used to the video games with those "buttons to press" you talked about in another video. When the system doesn't have as many of those, a CRPG/JRPG player might just feel overwhelmed or not know what's possible. If you can put some of those buttons back into play for them, that might grease the wheels a little bit. In the end, it's okay if someone doesn't want to play this game with you. There are other things you can do and other games you can play together. If he wants to play but just … doesn't know how, that's one thing-there are ways to help with that. If it's just not something he's into, the best thing to do is make sure he doesn't feel like he HAS to be into it. It's okay for his kids to play in your group and him not needing to if he'd rather not, assuming they're close by. I mean I can't claim to have a magic solution-I'm an autistic nerd who's scarcely been outside in five years-but I'm a developer guy, and the first step to solving anything is identifying what needs solving exactly. Mausritter is a great option, ESPECIALLY for the kids! Including the ones in their forties. 😁 You can lighten the tone of Shadowdark, but Mausritter is lighter in tone already. Your friend … I wonder if he'd get into Mice and Mystics more? It's less TTRPG than it is board game, but it feels very much in the same vein as Mausritter, but its board game elements make it feel more like a computer game with a menu of actions to be performed. Basically it's kid-friendly HeroQuest with the serial numbers filed off, if you have memories of HQ.
Could you talk a little bit more about your autism? My youngest son is very autistic and my older one has some really compulsive behaviors- I suspect that my older son might be autistic as well, but we have never had him tested. How does your autism manifest?
Telling a beginner “you can do anything” is super problematic. I found beginners need more prompting. They need “less agency” so to speak at least until they can start coming up with their own ideas. DM: “You see a overturned cart, a dead horse and what looks like a trail of footprints leading off to the east. What do you want to do?” Vs “You see an overturned cart a dead horse and a trail of footprints heading to the east, what does your characters’ eyes focus first?” The second result prompts the player that they should investigate if they choose and gives them 3 clear options but each one can have a unique outcome.
@@FamilyTableTop Indeed, beginners don’t care if they feel railroaded yet but they def feel confused and want to make a good informed decision. This way, the gm is kind of saying “here are some good choices”
About trouble of not knowing what to do - create a scenario where everyone knows what to do and there's no space for error. You're trapped in the dungeons of rats is more straightforward than rats attacking a village - should I hide, run or fight? Duke sent you, selected few, to deal with village-raiding rats - now I know. Trouble of not willingly "cringe at the table" (aka roleplay) - tone it down. On your side too - only necessary descriptions, NPC talking like "shopkeeper whimpered something about evil baron when you bought your stuff", going straight to the point. What do I mean by going straight to the point? By going along with the theme of the adventure - ask your friend who he'd like to be/play. Rambo? Great, so anything not concerning war, enemies and goverment is thrid-plane topic - shooting and being cool is the main dish. Even random encounter should be more about enemies, goverment or war consequences/reality! Fighting with crocs for no reason is not Rambolike - fighting with crocs during enemy assault is! And that's no random encounter! Maybe crocs are ;) If your friend doesn't want to say things in-character or act so - just allow him. Just then ask subtle questions (ie when he is in the zone) - like he wants to encourge crumbled and despaired forces, he does so, "You say anything special?" or something like that should've work after some time. Being gentle and slowly raising if he so pleases is the strategy to go with - otherwisely he won't be immersed, he'll drown! It's hard to get that... But once you are doing it, usually people fall in - You are in a small town with set goal in mind. Get that thugs, thieves hiding here! So as you set foot in town what do you do? Look for thieves. There are nowhere to be found yet. You can catch them unprepared as you are or ask around - but those thugs will know you asked about them! So, do you...? I ask around. After some time you know where the thugs are - but they are not the right head of the hydra! There just some pawns. But as for now you've been sent to stop those thugs here, once and for all. So I do. I go to them and stop them (how?) Well, I beat them. So, when you've came to their hideout, their leader greets you and then runs away leaving you with 5 thugs in a small room. Get ready to fight them...! Godspeed, mate!
Thank you for explaining all of that. - I appreciate your candor, I was probably throwing my friend into the water a little too deep. I like the step by step approach you suggested
I check out. But I try to not be invasive or disruptive. But thats because I cant do rpgs online. I have no focus when I could be grinding videogames at my pc.
"Wasn't interested in playing a tabletop roleplaying game." I think you answered the question yourself, chief. This is an outlier of all possible situations, practically all situations imply everyone is there to play. In situations where it does happen - like game night rolls up and the GM and most players decided to play a different game than planned, and the oddball sits there and feels forced to roll with the punches and play a game they didn't sign in on. When that happens, it isn't their fault. You have to hope they can adapt to something they didn't agree to do - and if it doesn't work, it really puts the burden of effort on everyone else. They need to engage the player, pump them up, excite them for the game and what to do with the character, create common backstories, and clear goals/open adventure depending on what they prefer. Because if that one person deserves that extra effort.
I think you’re right - had we been playing with other engaged adults, they would have been able to create an immersive environment for the awkward player, but since we were playing games with children and the children were also struggling a little…
@FamilyTableTop I also want to emphasize that the goals should also be independent of one another. Yes, they're the heros and they need to defeat the bad guys- but they need personal goals as well
It sounds like your player just doesn't want to play. And that's fine. There's a difference between teaching children and adults, but in both cases you can hit a wall where the player doesn't want to learn. When it comes to kids, they may not know how and need a helping hand or push. When it comes to adults, they should have the wherewithal to bring their own enthusiasm and not expect you to entertain them. It's frankly unfair and unrealistic to expect such. Some player issues can only be handled from the player's side. Or not (IE they simply don't play). You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Some people simply can't play as in they don't have an imagination. Unfortunately there is no way to get these games to "click" with some people. I like to say that TTRPGs are like a joke and some people just don't get the joke and much like a joke sometimes when people don't get it they act like they do get it but really you can tell when someone doesn't get it yet is embarrassed to admit it and gets upset when you explain it. I also have encountered players who refuse to play yet want to sit at the table and sabotage the game.
@@FamilyTableTop I'll try talking to them respectfully first to try and sort it out. If that fails I'll suggest that this might not be the right game for them and perhaps they were expecting a different play style or experience and politely ask them to leave. Now if those prior options don't work my third option is the power move I like to call The Filter™. First I "end" the game and come up with some reason that's probably bullshit because assholes don't deserve honesty. I will the start a new game with the players I liked and cut the bad or toxic player out of my life. I think some of the players who have survived The Filter™ might be subtly catching on. To be honest in recent sessions I have just started using The Filter™ almost immediately because I am getting tired of this shit. Remember everyone gatekeeping your hobbies is vital for the health of your hobby, if anyone says otherwise then they are the person who deserves to be gatekept, this is when you will need The Filter™.
@@BX-advocate do you play a lot of games with strangers, or online people? Or are these sabotaging disruptive players people who you knew prior to the game start?
@@FamilyTableTop All of the above. I no longer play online for this reason because it yielded consistently bad results and also I just much prefer to play in person online just isn't the same. Yeah both strangers and former friends have given me issues. In fact I recently had to cut off a few friends because of this and in reality I think it's outside factors affecting the game. I won't tell you the story for all the players but for one of the players I'm pretty sure he was subtly and enviously lashing out at me through the game because I recently lost weight and his wife was getting oddly flirty with me (I'm not interested) even though I've been fiends with him over a decade and I don't do that to my friends. Seriously I just want to play some fucking D&D and people these days seem to unable sit the fuck down and just play the fucking game like an adult.
How, why, what What do you do? How do you react? Why are you doing it that way? If they can answer these they can help you improv the narration and make rulings
“It’s great for kids because all the violence is being done to animals” you say it sounds bad but that’s the justification for like 90% of kids’ media. I think part of it is they don’t have to apply it to themselves (since they’re not animals) so the relatable stuff stays that way but the dark stuff is just how animals are. Another part of it for the even darker stuff is it’s usually theater of the mind, like with books, where the actual horror of watching these things happen to animals isn’t there, your mind is filtering it. As someone who grew up reading Warriors (the cat books) and Watership Down that was NOT stuff kids would be allowed to read about humans. Even movies, like Secrets of Nyhm, while less brutal than some of the books I read growing up, are remembered as scary by kids, but books far less so. (I want to reminisce about example but uhhh…. TW for brief descriptions of violence against animals?) Legit kids books with animals can get so brutal. The first series of Warriors had a scene where someone dies in childbirth, a plot about essentially a teenager getting mauled to death by a dog while another was mutilated, and near the end one of the villains is eviscerated by another, losing 9 lives at once. Watership Down had those scenes with snares, the inciting incident is the threat of a whole bunny civilization being genocided by humans, and there’s also a whole plot about essentially bunny fascism.
Some of those stories can show some pretty brutal stuff, but I think you’re right, kids minds filter it somehow by the conversion from human to animal. So you play any TTrpgs?
@@FamilyTableTop yeah, I’m a ttrpg nerd but I’ve only recently gotten into OSR stuff, Mausritter seemed like one that would be up my alley, so I searched it up. And while yours is less about the system and more about general GM advice, as a chronic GM I thought I’d check it out.
Role playing isnt for everyone. Cant force them to either. You also dont have to role play and pretend you are someone else. you can just act like yourself and just play the game.... some people try to play, but just dont like it. is what it is.
@@FamilyTableTop no. I love playing RPG but I cant find a group who actually get together in person to play though haha. I can visualize myself in the situation in the game. but I cant play act... i get that weird feeling when i do, like what am i doing haha. So the few times i was able to play DnD with people, we just played as ourselves lol. And so now I am developing a Solo RPG Skirmish game. Movement and combat is based on Skirmish games, but you level up your characters and play out adventures like RPGs..... best of both worlds. Even came up with several multiplayer rules. Low rules that are easy to learn so kids can pick up on it, but theres still enough customizability to keep adults interested. So that is what I am currently doing, a remedy for not having TTRPG friends lol
You could get some “common actions” on index cards ready to hand out if you feel a player could use these. Just add in some more gamy element to help them out. And say that you can use these or use it as inspiration. And maybe take them aside to do a quick sidebar. Tell them what you’re seeing and how you can help. for me as a gm I’d suggest playing themselves but just imagine they’re a small mouse in the case of mauseitter. That removes the fear of acting and using voices. They can just be themselves and only have to worry about the rules of the game.
I dunno about this. They'll play just by choosing a card in every scenario. It's what a game like 5e does. What the GM was doing was fine, go over the scenario and hint at some of the possibilities.
@@FamilyTableTopexactly! If people are so accustomed to having a set of “actions” or moves because they only play regular boardgames instead of ttrpg’s, that’s a wat to transition them :D
I think you're asking too much of an adult beginner by not only running a lightweight system with less of a reliance on actions giving it more structure but also dropping them in a setting which likely doesnt resonate with them. I hate to give the example because i dont want to hold dnd up as some sort of ideal but two reasons it is so successful for adult beginners is first that when it comes to actions you can always fall back on very structured options and second it is very relatable for adults that likley have some degree of recent exposure to that type of fantasy.
Those are very fair reactions. You are probably correct, if I had run a more structured game in a more general fantasy setting, the over all experience would have been better. It’s also likely my lack of experience and preparation for the game. Hopefully I do better next time.
TTRPGs are definitely not for everyone. Adults often lose the ability to partake in imaginative play. They forget how they created imaginary worlds with their toys on the bedroom floor every day when they were kids. Let's face it - that is what we are - kids at heart.
Some players feel silly, or lack confidence, then some adults have forgotten how to play make believe. Some simply do not want to play, but do, because their friends are. Some worry about looking stupid, and some really, really don't want to play.
For that level of beginner, or to introduce the concept, I describe the game as "Let's pretend with rules. You'll create a character to play, like in a movie or TV show, but there is no script. You decide what your character will try to do. The rules are just there to keep everything fair."
Very apt description, too.
Sometimes asking “what do you do?” Is a paralysing.
Instead introduce positive punishment by foreshadowing a danger.
Imagine a big boss fight video game. you enter their lair, their fight sequence activates and they start their attack animation. You character has a ‼️symbol on their head and an area of effect indicator is on the floor showing their club is about to slam that position.
if you don’t react you will be slammed by their big attack.
I recommend you Foreshadow the hazard, is coming whether they act or not and narrate they have moments to avoid it.
Give them a freebie with a super low dc so it kicks in, but doesn’t one hit their character
That’s a really good idea. I like that a lot. Thank you
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I truly appreciate your experience and perspective. My experience related to players having problems with story immersion depends on the player. For example, my 10 year old daughter originally had problems as she had expected the rules or her character limit her choices. To address this I would play a "game" where we toss the character sheet away and role play a story. This helped her to realize that TTRPGs can be the same as story telling (although some GMs are terrible about this). In game I try to break it down similar to what you said, "you see someone beating u an old lady. What would you like to do?" focusing on the player and drilling down to expand their choices based on the specific actions they want to do. And with regards to very creative players (like my daughter) try hard not to tell them they cannot do something but say something like "what are you trying to do?" to help them talk through their actions. Hope this helps!
@@KenSexe67 what game system are you playing with your daughter? And how many other players are with you?
Not to be ornery, or glib, but I recommend talking about it with your player.
Sometimes that very simple solution is better than trying to anticipate or mitigate a player.
they'll let you know if they were having fun or not, and you can let them know if they need to engage more to make the game work,
or if you're good having the kids drive the game forward.
Some folk are just happy to be in the seat without the spotlight, but it's good to set expectations with a chat.
Best of luck with future games!
@@pranefuji thank you so much. And thank you for the great advice - I think you’re right, talking with them will be best and also letting them play the games they like… I suspect that RPGs may not be their thing.
Sadly, many people are so accustomed to passive entertainment that their imagination has atrophied. I see it in both kids and adults. It may be that, or it could simply be that they are a bit self-conscious. Some players leap out of their seats and act out what their character is doing, speaking in character, etc. Others will narrate in the third person.
Maybe it's the setting.
It could also be analysis paralysis. It may help to have a limited selection of possible actions until they become more accustomed to deciding on their own.
This is very accurate- I think you are correct about your assessment. I like the idea of having written down some “choices” in advance to help the players get started.
@@FamilyTableTop The old gold box D&D games provided approaches for interacting with random encounters rather than concrete descriptions of dialogue or actions: Nice, Meek, Haughty, Sly, and Abusive. Something similar might help ease people into making decisions in a very indirect, non-immersed way: "Does [character name] react to the provocation aggressively, or do they give the appearance of being cowed, or do they just refuse to have any visible reaction?"
@@azabaro those are cool tables.
The first session or two makes the difference. The more she plays, the less self conscious she'll be. Also, I wonder if her family are not keen on TTRPGs. Some folks fear the hobby.
I don’t think it’s fear on her family’s part, I think it’s just not being exposed to the games before .
@@FamilyTableTop that, too. Plus for many, who grew up with video games, they're not used to the video game asking for their input and reactions.
I have a friend in his fifties, who struggles to read. He's also very reluctant to take any lead outside of a very narrow range (Hulk smash!). The man loves playing, but it can be like pulling teeth to get him to "play". He almost always defers to other players.
I'll tap a personal example. I come from a deeply Christian family. Both grandparents, half of my aunts and uncles were preachers. In the early 80s there was this thing called the Satanic Panic. My mom was convinced by some TV preachers that D&D was my path to literal hell.i came home from school and mom made me watch as she burned my 1st edition copies. I'd mowed lawns, shoveled manure, and ordered most of them out of catalogs.
My grandpa heard of this and came over to talk to my mom. He was a fire and brimstone, Bible throwing preacher... It's just a game, he said. He's a good kid. The next day mom gave me some money to replace the books. Sadly they'd changed the covers. I still have them.
Society etc, doesn't always understand the hobby or its attraction. Mostly out of ignorance.
Personally, I think what you are doing is a good thing, and that your young player will grow confident in time and that will carry her through life.
@@yourseatatthetable I understand what you mean -this hobby gets mistaken for many different things, both good and bad.
Outside Perception about a hobby or interest is often skewed by differing first principles.
For example: I am a Christian. I understand the things your mom was concerned about but I think I would side with your grandfather. God can do whatever He wants - if he wants to bring someone to Jesus through TTRPGs - then He will do that, and no one will stop Him.
But I understand the point of your story and the frustration that must have caused you.
@@FamilyTableTop In all honesty, it was so long ago that I cannot remember what most of my feelings were at the time. Mostly confusion and worry that I'd somehow made my mom mad. She'd never had an issue with them before, and she didn't see my West End Games Star Wars and other games supplements as a problem, for which I am very glad because Judges Guild was rare even then.
Yeah, one hole in a lot of small-market RPGs is that they don't really account for somebody who shows up to be social but not necessarily to play. For all its faults D&D has certain builds that can be pretty much autopiloted and if one person isn't paying attention or thinking about the story, that's not a big deal as long as most of the party is. In this case it sounds like you've got someone who needs to be there to keep an eye on their kid, and unless they come to you about really wanting to play, trying to get them to do something they're not motivated to do is probably just not going to go well for you.
@@Glazius7 I think that probably right, which is a bummer because it would be fun to get him to play something like this with his kids - I know his son loves TTRPGs and his daughter would probably get the hang of it quickly
It was cool of the guy to bring his daughter so she could play and participate; just him being there was neat because he could be there to support her and enjoy watching her play; so even just being a "parent observer" at the table instead of a player would be a great reason for him to be there. It sounds like the issue was, did he actually want to play, and was just unfamiliar/uncomfortable with it, or was he just there for her and *you* kinda wanted him to try playing? If the later, just let him enjoy her playing. If the former: he might be uncomfortable with improv, portraying a character (that can make a lot of people feel "silly"), and maybe having his daughter there made him feel extra self-conscious. Making him comfortable and relaxed, letting his minimal participation be fine, not keeping the spotlight on him where he feels awkward, gives I'm the chance to get used to it and gradually participate more. Your job is not to make sure everyone is having a blast, and you're not failing if he is only moderately invested. Maybe let go of how you imagined it going and just let it be what it is, and if anything he might grow with it over time.
That is excellent advice, thank you. I really like the way you presented multiple solutions to varying problems. As I was reading your comment I was thinking, “did I spotlight him?” - “yeah, a little.”
I think there was a little of column A and B, so your problem/solution approach is very helpful.
Thank you for explaining this.
@@FamilyTableTop thanks for the kind words. I appreciate what you do with your gaming!
Tried having a conversation about it with the dude one on one? Could be just embarrassed to let loose. I've told one friend hey were already sitting at a table playing make believe, the time for embarrassment is long past, we're all nerds now. Helped put him at ease. Could be analysis paralysis hoping his next move might be considered stupid or not meta? Could put that at ease. I'd also let them know that the more you put in the more you'll get out of it, plus it provides fuel for you to bring more. It's the collaboration!
@@VicSicily I did talk with him a little bit about the problem - he just said that it wasn’t his type of game. He thinks he’d be more interested in war games… I think that’s part of it but I you you’re right, it’s embarrassment, or something similar
@@FamilyTableTop probably. Take him to a wargame store where they simulate the charging battle cries while they're playing and he might quickly return to playing at your table haha. Maybe it isn't for him, but try having the talk and openly bring up the idea of being embarrassed. If he says that it is part of thst, as I said everyone is already nerding out by playing make believe to begin with might as well roll with it.
Alternately, maybe it's not for him and the games will flow better without him for all parties involved.
I've got two brand new players I'm starting my campaign for tomorrow night, I'm hoping they like it and I'm hoping I don't mess it all up, but I am fully prepared that they say nah it's not for me. It doesn't have to be, but it will be cool if it is.
@@VicSicily that’s awesome, what game are you playing? And how many people total?
@@FamilyTableTop shadowdark, 4 players, perhaps 5 if my nephew wants to join.
I think some folk just don't dig this type of game.
In some cases they are there for the social reasons and the game is almost coincidental.
Years back I played with a group, one of which I thought they would be the one to really get into things. But they just couldn't for some reason. He played one game and then dropped out. He had been keen on things before he played. Something just didn't work for him.
I've also played with a reluctant player who was there because their friends were. It was a Call Of Cthulhu game. Was MVP for the session, went mad and loved it.
You can only do so much, the hobby isn't for everyone.
@@AngryPict how did they become mvp, and then go mad?
@@FamilyTableTop playing a Victorian era game (Call Of Cthulhu 4th edition). They were a key investigator in many interactions with NPC, chose wisely during some exploration, excellent intimidation roll and roleplay with a particularly stubborn lawyer, failed lockpicking when it was actually best not to go through a door, then failed a sanity check when exposed to a fairly unpleasant eldritch horror.
A game that we still talk about. Top stuff.
That situation can be frustrating at times. I have found some people just don't want to roleplay and rather stay in 3rd person. That is fine, we all play differently. As long as they are playing and having a good time is what matters most.
I'd suggest asking them to describe their favourite character from a movie or book. What do you like about them? Their bravery, cleverness, sense of honour? Then ask them for five words to describe the character they want to be. Make them write those words down on their sheet. When you are asking them for actions you can remind them of the five words and they can help prompt ideas...is your character scared? Can your character think of a way to help? Should we keep the gems or return them to the temple they came from?
I really like this idea. This is very helpful - thinking about using this for my son.
You should do a one on one with him. Make an NPC character to play as a helper. Build a simple scenario to help his mind around the concept of (you can do anything) when things are about to happen or when he get stuck in his head have the NPC ask him questions about what to do or have the NPC get in to trouble where he has to deal with it.
@@wilmartinez1 that’s good idea. Thank you.
Could be social anxiety, Sometimes it's something else. You could make up simple Action Cards and they can pick one or two for their move. Some of the cards could have Prompts to help them kickstart their imagination or decide their path like in a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure style. Kids can sometimes respond when they have 3 options to choose from. Then once they get their wheels going they will maybe spark on their own. Sometimes kids are like kindling.
🔥 🔥 I really like this idea. Creating a training mode with prescribed options is a great way to get kids started.
@@FamilyTableTop sometimes it might just take a session or two but it couldn't hurt!
You can take the mule to the water, but can't make it drink.
Still, "roleplaying" is many things. But, the most important one, is making decisions with the character in mind.
Any way to get the mule thirsty?
@@FamilyTableTop Offer it water with sugar:
a.k.a. find what the player enjoys the most from a TTRPG game and give it to them
There is a wonderful video by Matthew Colville titled "Different Kinds of Players | Running the Game". He describes different types of players and what makes them tick. There are some players he describes as Audience Members or Casual Gamers who are just happy to be there and while it seems like they're not engaging they're still having fun. I think the way he frames it is just genius and absolutely worth a watch.
Thank you for the recommendation - I will look for the video
That was a great video! Thank you for the suggestion.
@@FamilyTableTop Glad you enjoyed it. The fun of this hobby is bumping into other GM's and assimilating different styles as you form your own. In my early days I learned a ton from Matt's Running The Game Series. Ben Milton at Questing Beast also completely revolutionized how I view the game.
This topic is a common one. Many new players want to play, but don't know how. It's these sorts of people who are a large part of my stance on 4D roleplay.
What is 4D Roleplaying?
@@FamilyTableTop boy, I was afraid you'd ask. A bit more convoluted than txt can handle. In essence, there are folks in the hobby striving for full immersion. The idea of 4D is that the table focuses fully on what some are calling, ICAC - in character, as character. No system checks or questions, no or as little dice rolls as possible. Nothing to distract the players from being in character. So: 1D = boardgames, many wargames, etc. 2D is what most new players experience. d&D is often played at its basic level; 3D is where most "experienced" players are, in my opinion. If I remember when I get home from work I'll post a couple YT videos on the topic if your interested.
Sure - this sounds interesting. Is this like Larping at home?
@@FamilyTableTop In a way, yes. Here's a video from a fellow whose group is deep into this quest for full immersion.
ruclips.net/video/DN6OTCSCXlg/видео.html
Rick, (I'm also a Rick), whose video it is, is a stanch believer in total immersion. Now, not this guy, but others, push the idea to the point of what I consider to be elitism; something I deeply feel is being a bad representative for the hobby as a whole. In 'some' groups minds, there would be no room for your young players or my friend, Kenny, because they'll ask questions; want to toss dice; and all the other wonderful stuff that goes along with 'the system' we're choosing to play.
An interesting side: LARPing goes way back. Ever heard of a Braunstein game? It was created by an associate of Gary Gygax about the same time he was introducing his Chainmail combat system. Some consider it the beginning of the RPG's that we know and love to share.
ruclips.net/video/onO8Lx_7dyU/видео.html
This video is From 'Daddy Rolls a One' (no matter how many times I say his channel's name a can't help but cringe a bit). My videos on the subject are crap, in my opinion.
We might also watch other players and the group dynamic in relation to 'quiet' players. Maybe one or two other players with more experience are unintentionally quarterbacking or sucking the "imaginative air" out of the other player who is not as quick, experienced, or not as imaginational extroverted. My experience was that as I was forming the scene and ideas, others are already over the top with actions interventions (some of which are not in keeping with our characters) that I have to dump my ideas and just play along. Great thoughts and questions in your videos, thanks
Thank you so much… that actually really helps. We were not playing the game with “initiative” out of combat - it probably would have been better for me to go around the table and have everyone take turns…
Some players need to just watch for a while for it to click.
To not JUST be the diegetic police :)
You could break down player engagement into 3 broad categories: Speaking In Character, Acting In Character, Planning Out-of-Character.
The goal is to get them doing these things proactively without prompting and some will take to that like fish to water, but often - as you describe with the young girl - you must prompt them. And in general it's things like a) NPCs ask them a question - so you prompt them to speak, b) Trigger a situation that demands a physical response and ask "what do you do" c) another player engages them in OOC dialogue about what they should do. Clearly you are doing this already - but consider the urgency of each. So having the merchant ask them if they want their patented cure-all elixir is low urgency, but having the town guard draw steel and demand to know their purpose is pretty urgent. I think the trick is to focus on those things that they can't just ignore.
It's about jump starting their motor. You did it with the girl by prompting her with an action need. Because this was an adult not engaging, it means you can escalate a bit more aggressively. So if the town guard drops their halberd to block their way and demands to know their purpose and they don't say something - the guard can call over backup, crowd or push them, make fun of them. Signal to the player if they don't do something it will be bad.
You can break it into a binary option if needed. "The guard is demanding to know your purpose, are you answering him or trying to walk away?" Then press for more when they pick one. Or maybe that prompts them to ask you a question like "I'm confused, what is my purpose?" Which is great because that's maybe getting at why they're not doing anything.
Those are all great actionable solutions to the problems I faced yesterday - and since I will likely be encountering the issue again, that gives me a lot to work with. Thank you. 😊
Have you already reached out to that person, asking about his experience with it? Like if he felt uncomfortable or something? In my oppinion, the best way to engage a player to any game is to try to be supportive. Asking about how they felt about the game or situation they were in might be a good step there
I did talk with him, since I really would like to be able to engage with him in games - he said that he doesn’t think that RPGs are his thing…
So, I’m planning on teaching him how to play Space Station Zero - it’s a campaign wargame. Since there no “acting” or pretending I think it might be up his alley. But I’m still looking for ideas to help engage a player with a TTRPG game.
@@FamilyTableTop first question popping up in my mind now is, what aspect of his RPG experience to be not his thing. RPG is not one cemented shape thing, but consists of so many facettes, where elevating specific ones might help.
If space station zero helps, maybe he needs more visual representation of environments, just to give one example here.
But again, I guess to make someone engage more with the topic, it would be helpful to know their interests first.
Hope this was helpful :)
It sounds like a lack of excitement / investment on the players side. That's not necessarily yours or the game's fault. Like you said, some people just don't like role-playing.
Or for example, I don't care for most sports. There's not much the games can do to make me invested, it's just not my cup of tea.
It could also be a perception thing. If your buddy is playing with his kid(s) and your kid(s) maybe he's just perceiving a game like Mausritter to feel like something for kids, whereas he might have enjoyed your darker, grittier ShadowDark game better.
I also have a player or two whose eyes glaze over after an hour if they don't get to swing a sword at something 😂
Everyone enjoys this hobby for different reasons and it's often hard to please everyone.
“Eyes glazed over after an hour without combat” - You have described my son perfectly.
@@FamilyTableTop 🤣🤣🤣 there's one in every group
You don't need to do voices to role play a character. If one is shy, just let them describe their actions and dialogues in 3rd person. Give them time to "break the ice" if that makes sense
That does make sense.
@@FamilyTableTop I was able to start doing it only recently as a DM, and I have been playing TTRPGs for like 12 years (with a couple of years off, to be fair).
It takes time for shy people.
I'm referring to doing voices/acting, not speaking in 1st person in character. That should be easier.
@@Timikator did something help you to stop being nervous?
@@FamilyTableTop I just overcame the shame I felt when doing voices.
Also, what helped was changing the gaming group. The people I started with are my friends, but I grew up with them, so I feel more shy to act silly around them.
The games we played were more "throw some dice and do some maths" with some dialogues in the background. Not very RP-ish. We were young to be fair.
@@Timikator how long have you been playing with your new group? What game do you mostly play?
Explain how the game works: "Your character can do absolutely anything in this world, but keep in mind that your actions have consequences. Now, tell me something that you love to do..." Then I take that answer I relate their character doing that action. Progress slowly through the game, taking time to do the same type of things with the player (first combat): "You see three rats up ahead that are pushing and shoving an elderly mouse between them. Tell me something funny you would say when you see someone doing something funny." Then take that answer and have their character do exactly that with great success (in the beginning). The character's next action when his/her turn comes back around will have a little more consequence. That time, the rat will respond - maybe pushing the PC or threatening them. Always give the PC the room to step into their character's shoes and take action at their pace. When they dive in & strike - let them win & be the one that saves the day. Make them the hero for the moment & let them celebrate. This kind of approach builds lifelong role-players. The world needs a new generation of those. Hope this helps!
This helps a lot. Any chance you work with kids?… have kids?
I like the idea of asking questions about adjacent experiences. That’s helpful for creating story precedence and player agency in the story.
@@FamilyTableTop I’m an intervention specialist for 8th grade, and I have 6 kids (4 boys, 2 girls), and 4 grandkids.
Before you get to the table with players... how well do you know your players and their experiences with TTRPGs... a professional poker player once said the most important skill to learn is when entering a room of poker players at the table is being able to choose the right table to play at... I know that example doesn't completely fit your question but knowing your players, knowing their likes/dislikes starts well before ever sitting down to play a game.
@@jshud3 that’s a very good skill. Something to keep in mind for sure. Thank you for sharing.
Sounds like your friend is more used to the video games with those "buttons to press" you talked about in another video. When the system doesn't have as many of those, a CRPG/JRPG player might just feel overwhelmed or not know what's possible. If you can put some of those buttons back into play for them, that might grease the wheels a little bit.
In the end, it's okay if someone doesn't want to play this game with you. There are other things you can do and other games you can play together. If he wants to play but just … doesn't know how, that's one thing-there are ways to help with that. If it's just not something he's into, the best thing to do is make sure he doesn't feel like he HAS to be into it. It's okay for his kids to play in your group and him not needing to if he'd rather not, assuming they're close by. I mean I can't claim to have a magic solution-I'm an autistic nerd who's scarcely been outside in five years-but I'm a developer guy, and the first step to solving anything is identifying what needs solving exactly.
Mausritter is a great option, ESPECIALLY for the kids! Including the ones in their forties. 😁 You can lighten the tone of Shadowdark, but Mausritter is lighter in tone already.
Your friend … I wonder if he'd get into Mice and Mystics more? It's less TTRPG than it is board game, but it feels very much in the same vein as Mausritter, but its board game elements make it feel more like a computer game with a menu of actions to be performed. Basically it's kid-friendly HeroQuest with the serial numbers filed off, if you have memories of HQ.
Could you talk a little bit more about your autism? My youngest son is very autistic and my older one has some really compulsive behaviors- I suspect that my older son might be autistic as well, but we have never had him tested.
How does your autism manifest?
Telling a beginner “you can do anything” is super problematic. I found beginners need more prompting. They need “less agency” so to speak at least until they can start coming up with their own ideas.
DM: “You see a overturned cart, a dead horse and what looks like a trail of footprints leading off to the east. What do you want to do?”
Vs
“You see an overturned cart a dead horse and a trail of footprints heading to the east, what does your characters’ eyes focus first?”
The second result prompts the player that they should investigate if they choose and gives them 3 clear options but each one can have a unique outcome.
@@CaseyWilkesmusic like that, it’s focusing instead of railroading into choose “this,” or “that”.
@@FamilyTableTop Indeed, beginners don’t care if they feel railroaded yet but they def feel confused and want to make a good informed decision. This way, the gm is kind of saying “here are some good choices”
About trouble of not knowing what to do - create a scenario where everyone knows what to do and there's no space for error. You're trapped in the dungeons of rats is more straightforward than rats attacking a village - should I hide, run or fight? Duke sent you, selected few, to deal with village-raiding rats - now I know.
Trouble of not willingly "cringe at the table" (aka roleplay) - tone it down. On your side too - only necessary descriptions, NPC talking like "shopkeeper whimpered something about evil baron when you bought your stuff", going straight to the point. What do I mean by going straight to the point? By going along with the theme of the adventure - ask your friend who he'd like to be/play. Rambo? Great, so anything not concerning war, enemies and goverment is thrid-plane topic - shooting and being cool is the main dish. Even random encounter should be more about enemies, goverment or war consequences/reality! Fighting with crocs for no reason is not Rambolike - fighting with crocs during enemy assault is! And that's no random encounter! Maybe crocs are ;)
If your friend doesn't want to say things in-character or act so - just allow him. Just then ask subtle questions (ie when he is in the zone) - like he wants to encourge crumbled and despaired forces, he does so, "You say anything special?" or something like that should've work after some time. Being gentle and slowly raising if he so pleases is the strategy to go with - otherwisely he won't be immersed, he'll drown!
It's hard to get that... But once you are doing it, usually people fall in - You are in a small town with set goal in mind. Get that thugs, thieves hiding here! So as you set foot in town what do you do?
Look for thieves.
There are nowhere to be found yet. You can catch them unprepared as you are or ask around - but those thugs will know you asked about them! So, do you...?
I ask around.
After some time you know where the thugs are - but they are not the right head of the hydra! There just some pawns. But as for now you've been sent to stop those thugs here, once and for all.
So I do. I go to them and stop them (how?) Well, I beat them.
So, when you've came to their hideout, their leader greets you and then runs away leaving you with 5 thugs in a small room. Get ready to fight them...!
Godspeed, mate!
Thank you for explaining all of that. - I appreciate your candor, I was probably throwing my friend into the water a little too deep.
I like the step by step approach you suggested
I check out. But I try to not be invasive or disruptive. But thats because I cant do rpgs online. I have no focus when I could be grinding videogames at my pc.
"Wasn't interested in playing a tabletop roleplaying game." I think you answered the question yourself, chief. This is an outlier of all possible situations, practically all situations imply everyone is there to play.
In situations where it does happen - like game night rolls up and the GM and most players decided to play a different game than planned, and the oddball sits there and feels forced to roll with the punches and play a game they didn't sign in on.
When that happens, it isn't their fault.
You have to hope they can adapt to something they didn't agree to do - and if it doesn't work, it really puts the burden of effort on everyone else. They need to engage the player, pump them up, excite them for the game and what to do with the character, create common backstories, and clear goals/open adventure depending on what they prefer.
Because if that one person deserves that extra effort.
I think you’re right - had we been playing with other engaged adults, they would have been able to create an immersive environment for the awkward player, but since we were playing games with children and the children were also struggling a little…
Oof, that sucks!
Goals, the player characters need long-term and short-term goals. Without goals then why play the character at all?
That’s helpful, I could have done better at setting up goals - break into the town, find the townsfolk, defeat all the evil rats.
Thank you
@FamilyTableTop I also want to emphasize that the goals should also be independent of one another. Yes, they're the heros and they need to defeat the bad guys- but they need personal goals as well
@@samgino2020 also helpful. Maybe I could find a d100 table for new players
How big is your house man? 😅
Not that big…? We have a really large main room with a Lego city built into what should have been a Dinning room.
It sounds like your player just doesn't want to play. And that's fine. There's a difference between teaching children and adults, but in both cases you can hit a wall where the player doesn't want to learn. When it comes to kids, they may not know how and need a helping hand or push. When it comes to adults, they should have the wherewithal to bring their own enthusiasm and not expect you to entertain them. It's frankly unfair and unrealistic to expect such.
Some player issues can only be handled from the player's side. Or not (IE they simply don't play). You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
Do you know of any ways to make a horse thirsty?
Some people simply can't play as in they don't have an imagination. Unfortunately there is no way to get these games to "click" with some people. I like to say that TTRPGs are like a joke and some people just don't get the joke and much like a joke sometimes when people don't get it they act like they do get it but really you can tell when someone doesn't get it yet is embarrassed to admit it and gets upset when you explain it.
I also have encountered players who refuse to play yet want to sit at the table and sabotage the game.
@@BX-advocate that sucks. What did you do?
@@FamilyTableTop I'll try talking to them respectfully first to try and sort it out. If that fails I'll suggest that this might not be the right game for them and perhaps they were expecting a different play style or experience and politely ask them to leave.
Now if those prior options don't work my third option is the power move I like to call The Filter™. First I "end" the game and come up with some reason that's probably bullshit because assholes don't deserve honesty. I will the start a new game with the players I liked and cut the bad or toxic player out of my life. I think some of the players who have survived The Filter™ might be subtly catching on.
To be honest in recent sessions I have just started using The Filter™ almost immediately because I am getting tired of this shit. Remember everyone gatekeeping your hobbies is vital for the health of your hobby, if anyone says otherwise then they are the person who deserves to be gatekept, this is when you will need The Filter™.
@@BX-advocate do you play a lot of games with strangers, or online people? Or are these sabotaging disruptive players people who you knew prior to the game start?
@@FamilyTableTop All of the above. I no longer play online for this reason because it yielded consistently bad results and also I just much prefer to play in person online just isn't the same.
Yeah both strangers and former friends have given me issues. In fact I recently had to cut off a few friends because of this and in reality I think it's outside factors affecting the game. I won't tell you the story for all the players but for one of the players I'm pretty sure he was subtly and enviously lashing out at me through the game because I recently lost weight and his wife was getting oddly flirty with me (I'm not interested) even though I've been fiends with him over a decade and I don't do that to my friends. Seriously I just want to play some fucking D&D and people these days seem to unable sit the fuck down and just play the fucking game like an adult.
How, why, what
What do you do?
How do you react?
Why are you doing it that way?
If they can answer these they can help you improv the narration and make rulings
@@SkittleBombs oh, that’s good. Thank you. I will write those down.
I like mausritter as a system. I was sad to see the creator doesn't appear to be a good person.
I had not heard… what happened?
“It’s great for kids because all the violence is being done to animals” you say it sounds bad but that’s the justification for like 90% of kids’ media. I think part of it is they don’t have to apply it to themselves (since they’re not animals) so the relatable stuff stays that way but the dark stuff is just how animals are. Another part of it for the even darker stuff is it’s usually theater of the mind, like with books, where the actual horror of watching these things happen to animals isn’t there, your mind is filtering it. As someone who grew up reading Warriors (the cat books) and Watership Down that was NOT stuff kids would be allowed to read about humans. Even movies, like Secrets of Nyhm, while less brutal than some of the books I read growing up, are remembered as scary by kids, but books far less so.
(I want to reminisce about example but uhhh…. TW for brief descriptions of violence against animals?)
Legit kids books with animals can get so brutal. The first series of Warriors had a scene where someone dies in childbirth, a plot about essentially a teenager getting mauled to death by a dog while another was mutilated, and near the end one of the villains is eviscerated by another, losing 9 lives at once. Watership Down had those scenes with snares, the inciting incident is the threat of a whole bunny civilization being genocided by humans, and there’s also a whole plot about essentially bunny fascism.
Some of those stories can show some pretty brutal stuff, but I think you’re right, kids minds filter it somehow by the conversion from human to animal.
So you play any TTrpgs?
@@FamilyTableTop yeah, I’m a ttrpg nerd but I’ve only recently gotten into OSR stuff, Mausritter seemed like one that would be up my alley, so I searched it up. And while yours is less about the system and more about general GM advice, as a chronic GM I thought I’d check it out.
Role playing isnt for everyone. Cant force them to either. You also dont have to role play and pretend you are someone else. you can just act like yourself and just play the game.... some people try to play, but just dont like it. is what it is.
@@intothezombieapocalypse that seems to be true. Do you like to do Roleplaying?
@@FamilyTableTop no. I love playing RPG but I cant find a group who actually get together in person to play though haha. I can visualize myself in the situation in the game. but I cant play act... i get that weird feeling when i do, like what am i doing haha. So the few times i was able to play DnD with people, we just played as ourselves lol. And so now I am developing a Solo RPG Skirmish game. Movement and combat is based on Skirmish games, but you level up your characters and play out adventures like RPGs..... best of both worlds. Even came up with several multiplayer rules. Low rules that are easy to learn so kids can pick up on it, but theres still enough customizability to keep adults interested. So that is what I am currently doing, a remedy for not having TTRPG friends lol
You could get some “common actions” on index cards ready to hand out if you feel a player could use these. Just add in some more gamy element to help them out. And say that you can use these or use it as inspiration. And maybe take them aside to do a quick sidebar. Tell them what you’re seeing and how you can help. for me as a gm I’d suggest playing themselves but just imagine they’re a small mouse in the case of mauseitter. That removes the fear of acting and using voices. They can just be themselves and only have to worry about the rules of the game.
Those are great suggestions! Thank you. I could even say “you have been turned into a mouse” and allow them to simply be themselves…
I dunno about this. They'll play just by choosing a card in every scenario. It's what a game like 5e does.
What the GM was doing was fine, go over the scenario and hint at some of the possibilities.
@@chibinya I might still use the cards idea to give ideas of different choices and then slowly take away the cards.
@@FamilyTableTopexactly! If people are so accustomed to having a set of “actions” or moves because they only play regular boardgames instead of ttrpg’s, that’s a wat to transition them :D
I think you're asking too much of an adult beginner by not only running a lightweight system with less of a reliance on actions giving it more structure but also dropping them in a setting which likely doesnt resonate with them. I hate to give the example because i dont want to hold dnd up as some sort of ideal but two reasons it is so successful for adult beginners is first that when it comes to actions you can always fall back on very structured options and second it is very relatable for adults that likley have some degree of recent exposure to that type of fantasy.
Those are very fair reactions. You are probably correct, if I had run a more structured game in a more general fantasy setting, the over all experience would have been better.
It’s also likely my lack of experience and preparation for the game. Hopefully I do better next time.
Sounds like the adult doesn’t want to play, at least not that game. Maybe try a different game with other adults?
Yeah, I think we’re going to try Space Station Zero.
TTRPGs are definitely not for everyone. Adults often lose the ability to partake in imaginative play. They forget how they created imaginary worlds with their toys on the bedroom floor every day when they were kids. Let's face it - that is what we are - kids at heart.
So sad… there’s got to be some way to bring the magic back…
@@FamilyTableTop Not sure how to manage that though. I have found that not sitting in front of a TV and vegetating was a good start.