"they don't have a lot of options on their character sheet, so almost immediately became creative to solve their problems" - Welcome to Shadowdark, and the OSR generally, brother.
I totally experienced this! I run a duet game with my husband. We started up a game of Old School Essentials, and he's had to get really crafty and creative with his 1 hp magic-user. :'D
1. Welcome to Shadowdark. 2. Congrats on a wonderfully creative first session for both you and your players. 3. Once the players get used to the freedom of coming up with their own actions that respond and take advantage of the situation happening in the world instead of relying on the limited options that the training wheels of Feats provide, they will probably never want to go back. 4. Don't worry about getting every last rule right. If you had fun, you did it right!
This was the brilliance of older versions of D&D. To use game theory terminology: a game has two parts - the closed system and the open system. The closed system is the books, the formulas, the defined powers and stuff on your character sheet. The open system is the brains and imagainations of the people playing the game, all their knowledge and life experiences, what they know about religion, and chemistry, and riding a skateboard, and birdwatching. The emphasis in modern RPGs tends to be on the closed system. Old school D&D relied heavily on the open system. Thus, by not defining a million specific powers, "the solution is not on your character sheet," and the possibilities genuinely become limitless (or rather, only limited per the perameters of your shared imagined worldspace). So, less is more.
I haven't really tried, otherwise than to encourage creative thinking. I did try to implement an old school style "exploration turn," but it didn't mesh well, and probably that was just more the style I've gotten used to than anything system-dependent. Mostly, of I want old school play, I just pull out an old school game. I still have my BECMI D&D and AD&D 2nd edition books, checked out a bunch of OSR stuff, and I have Shadowdark on order when they do the reprint. Not sure if I'll like all of it or not, but if nothing else, it's worth it for the random tables.
On top of what nrais76 (very correctly!) says, you were also exposed to another game theory dynamic that gets thrown out a lot, especially in sandbox videogames. Emergent gameplay! I.e. the open system ^^
Exactly. I remember this being a gateway to learning. If we wanted to do something we had to either have experience or knowledge to guide us. So, we looked things up. With the idea of a Medieval to Pre Gunpowder Europe as the default (with fantasy frosting on top) we learned how things might be done or were done.
@@FamilyTableTop One problem you run into is that people who have only played D&D 5e can be a bit like people who have had halloween candy for every meal for the last 12 years. They don't know how to respond to a well seasoned, home cooked meal. You may get push back on taking away all the candy. That said, there are small things. 1. NO DARKVISION. Offer a feat in trade for it. Or, look at an older edition version and treat it as Infra vision. Seeing heat shows different things, but does not reveal all (like those very cold undead). It is also spoiled by being too close to light like a torch Nerfing darkness as a source of dramatic tension is one of the most boneheaded moves the game has made. 2. Perception, Deception Persuasion, Intimidation and Insight checks are always a DC 20 without specifics. If your players can state how they are making the attempt (what is the action, what are they trying to do, how are they trying it) then you can drop the DC by 5 or or 10 based on the ROLE PLAY they are putting into it. 3. Always put them up against a higher CR than would be "balanced". Award XP for bypassing a fight through cunning or communication. Or use milestone XP and ground advancement in the plot. When fights are hard and monsters are not just XP Piñatas to break open, it can change the tone. You might want to check out 5e Hardcore mode. www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/303156/5e-hardcore-mode My personal opinion is that "Avengers go to Renfaire" gaming is overly complex, slow and less rewarding. Having PCs on the fantasy "struggle bus" makes a win feel like more of a win and puts the narrative out in front of the murdermath.
Thank you for watching. It was really fun. Let me know how your games go… and check out the Cursed Scrolls, I watched one of the creators videos on them, the settings are really interesting.
I picked up them as well, so I'm excited to give them a try. I heard the creator, Kelsey Dionne, say that she's working on the 4th one now, and it's going to have a Hexcrawl.
The random generation of those two elves with the same name for your son and his mate and how this served as the seed of their backstory is pure gold. No two-page backstory full of cliches and that reads like a pastiche of fantasy fiction can compete with that.
Yeah, it was great. When an Orc killed his friend’s Elf, my son said “I want to run into him and tackle him with my torch. And I want to roll with advantage because he killed my brother.” I was thinking, “yep, that sounds right!”
It was really fun. And now I’m working on a way to make it an “open world” so that I can allow our players to explore the game in sessions outside our Saturday night games.
@@FamilyTableTop wow great idea! This is how the hobby should be enjoyed, not locked into a "build" or sitting in front of a screen waiting to push buttons...Your passion and willingness to be real is a great testament to what the game COULD be when WE the players actually take what we are given and make it ours. Not just a bunch of consumers waiting for WotC or whatever game distributor to tell us what we can do
@@seanferguson-th6ny yeah, I think my son struggles because he’s used to playing video games and so he plays for the “orange” items - always chasing a slightly higher damage output, or statistic. It’s going to take a little while to get him out of that mind set.
@@FamilyTableTop I get it too because I used to play Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes Mobile game and spent embarrassing amounts of hard earned money on it. I think it's ok to gravitate toward a mechanism that rewards math logic but at the same time you are constraining yourself and the game when it comes to ttrpgs...why attach to minutiae? Minutiae has always lead me to think I could game the game and some current players I game with do that and it's like listening to their turn is like listening to a math lesson. I think as long as you can satisfy some degree of that desire your son has without reducing the creativity then that's fine. Some players want different things out if the game. some want the story others want to roll math rocks and strategize. Ttrpgs offer something video games simply CANT but not all players embrace it
@@FamilyTableTop when my son started playing he came from video games as well. Initially he was only interested in killing monsters and loot. Now he has become one of the best role players at the table.
@@FamilyTableTop Much like yourself, we're moving away from 5E and getting into Free League stuff. In particular I just started running Mutant Year Zero - Genlab Alpha. I'm also enjoying Dragonbane, which I've played a little with my youngest son. In addition to this we play a bunch of board games. As a teacher my real ambition is to get loads of kids into the hobby at school.
I have a black note book called the Book of the Dead, when a character dies the players get together and create a little obituary. Before every game we read from the book if the dead it’s always fun and sets the players minds for the upcoming game. Welcome to Shadowdark.
That's cool! Back when I used to play in Adventurers' League, we had the "Wall of the Dead", which was a corkboard with *fragments* of the sheets of the characters who had died (not the whole sheets, fragments of them, because the tearing of the sheet was a ritual that the local place had)
It's incredible how strong the temptation to play to the rules rather than your imagination. When you get rid of all the "videogame-esque" restrictions, there's a lot more room for imagination. Very cool experience!
This is really great. I think it demonstrates one of the differences between modern D&D and the old-school style; modern D&D is about great stats and character options, while old-school games are about player creativity and problem-solving. I also like another comment I heard comparing 5E and OSR games: when a powerful monster appears in 5E players roll to see if their characters are afraid. When a powerful monster appears in an OSR game, *players* are afraid. The only nit-picky thing I would say is that the halfling has 3 rounds of invisibility and while the length of a round will vary depending on various factors, a round is each person at the table taking a turn/ action. So 3 rounds means 3 actions..For me, that would probably be about a minute or so, not 30 minutes. But of course, it's open to interpretation, just as the "invisibility" itself is interpreted by some to be literal invisibility, while others say it's just particularly effective hiding. Whatever makes it fun for your group is the right choice. Glad you guys had a good time!
Really interesting. Thanks for sharing. This shines a luminous torch light on differences between game systems. I can see why people get attached to their heroic characters and go deep into character builds and the special actions and feats characters deploy in combat with 5E D&D. I’m partial to old school D&D and ShadowDark captures the spirit and style like bottled magic. There is more creativity and exploring how to interact / interject the characters into the setting and encounters.
Congrats on such a fun experience. Nothing compares to the stories of a well enjoyed RPG session. Dungeon World is another great fantasy game low-rules easy to learn and play- and leaves all actions and resolutions up to the imaginations. You either succeed wholly, somewhat succeed but with a complication or fail and spark a complication. "the complications" are always fun ways to narrate cool unfortunate stuff happening in the combats or course of the exploration. And players are encouraged to provide feedback and ideas of what actually happens. Very good at collective storytelling.
Thank you for this video! I mostly play solo and watch YT vids for ideas and tge way your describe the liberation a player has when faced with an almost empty character sheet is incredibly helpful for me!
No problem - I was a little surprised that it was so easy to get players to play the game like an RPG. What games are you playing solo? How is solo play? I have done solo play with card games only so far…
Sounds awesome! And it will only get better as you all become more familiar with the system, which as you already know is not difficult, and quite intuitive. I find the tension added by dealing with the darkness to be wonderful for immersion in the game. Brains of players over buttons on characters sheets is so much more fun in my view. Old versions of DnD were like this, it's the more recent versions that have gone down the novelization of modules/superhero character route. I hope you continue to have a lot of fun with Shadowdark! Feels like I may be seeing you on the SD discord 😁.
His son though. Will wait and find out. As a autistic I had to be FORCED into things. At the same time my hobbies were not promted. On top of that I got no skills until college. My sister on the other hand. So maybe pushing him to dm or OSR might be helpful When autistics get depressed it can lead to bad things. Occrding to Pew Research the occult. The shame and downward spiral often leads to leaches like SP or Elegores forming. An autistics attitude it unchecked will piss people off and cause failure. Failure leads to anger and depression. Add lust and it gets bad.
@@langwaters9653 I’m there, but I just joined …yesterday I think. I noticed there were a lot of creative resources. I’m excited to get to know this system better. Have you played and run?
@@TempoLOOKING could you explain more about this? Do you think my older son might be autistic? Do autistic people fixate on statistics and number things? I’m a little confused, but I really wan to understand what you mean.
@@FamilyTableTop I've been into OSR for many years now, but I've only been into Shadowdark since January. I'm running it right now for a small group. Currently recruiting local players. I'm running a gauntlet this coming Friday and then a week after that with some folks that have responded to my outreach (meetup group and posting on a local gamestore bulletin board). It will be a chance for them to see if they like the game and for my 3 regulars to see if they like the people. Where those intersect we'll be inviting to our weekly game. I run that game as a DM. I've put in about 25 hours as a player in an online VTT game run by a really good DM. We were going through a very well regarded OSR adventure called Barrowmaze. I'd like to keep playing in that game, but scheduling makes it hard. Lots of good resources on the discord server. I'm Ouroboros there. Posts by folks like kiwi4BBQ are the ones to look for--sort of the wizened elders and most knowledgeable. I think kiwi was one of Kelsey's original playtesters. Kelsey also replies to comments periodically, and keeps everyone up to date on the announcements channel. If you haven't already sought out her videos, I highly recommend all of them. You'll soon see that she's very talented, very down to earth. As an aside I'll mention that my original game group of 10+ years tried SD. Three of them liked it and one of them did NOT like it at all. She won't play. This is someone that loves complex character builds, min/maxing, and not dying. Caused some weirdness in our group of friends because I'm done with DnD and she's married to one of the other players. We're all human, we don't all like the same things! Obvious, and true. Good luck with your group 😉.
Fantastic! The OSR old ones have a smile of contentment after hearing this. Don't sweat the rules, what's important is that the principles were followed. Great job Nate!
Awesome!!! This is where old school or OSR games really shine... The players create the story, and more importantly memories... Tables and stats and such are cool... but they can't replace the improv stuff like this that just happens out of the blue. The moment the DM can improv along with them (Knowing their players intimately) vs trying to find a rule or chart is when the game really shines. Every table is unique, and thus the quip often heard 'Whatever works for your table'. Congrats!
no worries... in the off chance you plan to attend gencon, and want to meetup, let me know as I'll be attending with my son and grandson this year after quite the hiatus.
@@FamilyTableTop Yes, mostly B/X (Moldvay), but used to play quite a bit of LotFP, and I am currently in a BFRPG campaign (very closely related to B/X); and also OD&D (the 3 little booklets from 1974). I started D&D with 5e but it did not sit well with me for the exact reasons you spelled out as well: long attrition combats and long option lists to select from instead of free decision making. That was what drew me into the OSR fast.
Yes, I had this same journey but it took me way longer! I'm really impressed at how fast you progressed through this. I played Old School D&D when I was 10 years old. Then I switched to the modern style (feats, actions, special abilities - very video gamey, not based on imagination anymore) in late high school. I only just re-discovered the "Old Ways" in my late 30s (when I felt disappointment by 5e and like game just lost all tension and creativity)! There's so much more creativity in Old School D&D games, and they are so much more accessible to new players (especially adults who don't have time to memorize all the feats/abilities/combos etc). Old school D&D games move the "game" from hours of character build strategies (typically done on your own as "homework), to what actually happens at the table. The game becomes about imagination and creativity and what you actually choose to do during the game.
That’s it exactly- old school stuff allows you to play with your imagination. That’s it! That’s awesome that you figured it out as well so you could be playing games you enjoy more. 😊 What system are you playing in?
You make me want to play Shadowdark now. I am for sure interested in hearing the review from the kids. I run DnD for middle schoolers and I feel like it’s not the right rule set for my group.
Wait until, like my players, they realize that there is no fantasy Geneva Convention. Cluster bombs, holy water and silver dust Claihdmore Mines, re-using dungeon traps against the inhabitants. Shadowdark really allows player ingenuity to shine and puts it front and center. "The solution is not on your character sheet" is the mantra.
Yes - that is exactly it. I was nervous also about another idea from DnD 5e - what if my players have been ruined by playing 5e? What if they cannot play an RPG?
@@FamilyTableTop Good news, I've run a one-year campaign with Shadowdark, and as long as your bad habits as a DM from 5E are not coming into play, you can break even the most hardcode 5E player of these bad habits using the game system. Tested with a eight-year 5E player, and a 15-year 3rdEd player, both took to the new system after 3-4 games and really started rolling with it. Your attitide as a DM has to really encourage and reward those gonzo solutions the players come up with, but if you're a good DM, you'll get them out of bad habits.
I really appreciate that you shared your experience. This highlights something that I think reflects more on the PLAYERS of DnD than the system itself. There are many times when "Rules Lawyers" play at my tables that I'm DMing. I don't mind their attitudes towards it. However, when I first started to play TTRPG's in the 90's, we didn't have the internet and a ton of books to follow, so we made up a LOT of stuff on the fly. The whole point was to make sure everyone was having fun. But, with the internet, with RUclips, and with streamers, there has been a new generation of players that have almost demanded very clear and precise instructions on how the game 'should' work. I understand this attitude, and am willing to work with it. But, I think that it is less of a product of DnD itself and more of a product of the way that people are playing it now days. I whole heartedly believe that everything that you did and experienced in ShadowDark could be experienced in DnD, depending on the way that you frame the group at the very beginning. If, as a DM, you are overly specific and strict during character creation, then you are automatically setting the tone of the campaign. I could ramble on, but this is already turning into a soapbox. TLDR, I think that you could take the principles that you have experienced in this session and transfer them into your DnD group and I think that you will find a new world of flexibility and join in that as well.
@@alanvanpatter6352 you are correct. I have already had that thought about DnD… I would need to do a few things to create limits and then I would need to pull down the leveling and XP gain - once players hit lvl 5 things start going off the rails.
I"ve always had the mentality that while rules lawyers are fun killers at times, they have a point - if you don't want to play by the rules, (rules be damned), then play a different game that doesn't have so many rules.
if they had fun and you had a ton of fun as the DM i think it was a smashing success. the way you describe how they played makes me all the more eager to start playing!
“You really, definitely, indisputably do not need a detailed character background before play begins. In fact, all you really need is a name, a class, stats, and some equipment, and you're good - because within five minutes of the game beginning you will without fail find your character beginning to take on a personality of his own. This strange and almost mystical emergence of character through play is one of the best things about the hobby, and it amazes me that people have been so determined for decades, to kill that concept.” Monsters and Manuals Blog, 21 October 2011
@@louislamancusa6331 that is explained very well and that is exactly what happened in our Shadowdark game. Somewhat that occurred in our DnD games, but mostly with our players who are already into drama.
I used to write backgrounds for my PCs. Now I wait until the first session is done and the character's defining moment in it becomes his or her foundational story.
@@FamilyTableTop I did this with the mystic-like Fighter/"weapons master" I mentioned to you on another one of your video's. In his first session he is reduced to just 1 HP. The party are up against trolls and my character has been fighting the last one standing while poised above a cave entrance. Given his position he has a chance to climb out of harm's way but I instead opt to make an Athletics check to have the character dive from his position to attack the troll in the hope such reckless bravery doesn't get him killed or if it does he is to at least die a hero. I succeed and the DM says I can roll the attack with Advantage. One of the dice is a nat 20. The troll dies. And the character is appropriately baptized in its blood. I couldn't have come up with this had I just tried to think of a backstory before the game had even begun.
I sincerely enjoyed the engaging tale of your first Shadowdark experience and appreciated how authentic this video felt-like off-the-cuff reportage. It didn’t feel rambling at all. Happily subscribed! Glad you all had fun, and thanks for bringing the word "consilience" back to me.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate your kind encouragement. I will continue to keep bringing off the cuff reporting. That such a kind way to describe my rambling.
What an awesome story. It's great to see young players getting introduced to the imaginative problem solving side of RPGs. It's one of the reasons why I have a tendency to enjoy narrative RPGS more than tactical ones. I experienced this as a GM when I ran my first game of Dungeon Crawl Classics several years ago, and my players still talk about those games. I love DCC's way of starting new characters. You basically give everyone 3 to 5 random 0-level PCs, and put them through a dungeon grinder to see who survives. The ones who survive get promoted to 1st level, and you then start the campaign with them. It's a blast.
I haven’t played DCC, what is it like? How does it play? We’re playing. Shadowdark at the moment and we did a similar thing during our first session. It was really fun. Do you still play the DCC system?
So glad your players had a great time being creative. My players do the same in 5e. I think it's more about your receptivity to their shenanigans in their responding to challenge than something inherent to 5e or SD.
@@timholbert2002 that is very fair. A player who is interested in roleplaying will likely play well in either an open system or a closed one. DnD and Shadowdark are simply the vehicle to get players to participate in a game simulation, you’re right. But I do think the vehicle (system) can help get players involved in the game in different ways. For example - if I wanted to get a group of players to explore their in-game descriptions of actions, I might try to play Tales from the Loop. The system in that game rewards players for creatively participating in the story adventure by allowing them to act as mini-DMs to further describe the scene. If I wanted to escape the intense pre-prep aspect of TTRPGs I would play Blades in the Dark (or steal their flashback system). Different systems will inspire different styles of play. A great DM and helpful players will excel in any system. It sounds like you are a great DM and you have really good players. 🤗 Have you played any other game systems aside from DnD 5e?
@@FamilyTableTop I love 5e with some house rules. I hate how painful character creation is in it though. If I get new players I will create the character for them based on what they want to play so they don’t have to go through the slog.
@@FamilyTableTop Ya, it takes me long enough to wish it was as fast as the OSR, but my players have no desire to play with the gritty realism of the old school.
Your son: "For my fallen brethren" throws torch. Hell yea tho this sounds like such a perfect first game! And I'm glad you tried it out! Not as weird rules wise as you originally thought huh.
@@FamilyTableTop also, you say the things that I feel and say about DnD which is why I'm a big fan, because it unfortunately just took me a lot longer to see all the issues, was a big big fan of 3.5, 4 was ok and 5 was cool in the first few years it dropped.. but it's not a good game at least at the very least not for me. As for running a game and playing a PC, yes cause I've been testing a campaign I'm building solo and sometimes with my partner playing, it's actually way more intuitive and I feel like because your PC isn't overpowered you can't steal the thunder or dramatically change the story like a typical GM lead PC in DnD. As for relaxing that can be very hard with new systems, especially ones that might not be on everyone's radar as an enjoyable game, but games like shadow dark are the reason I enjoy TTRPGs, and many years ago started working on my own, I'll get around to releasing it someday.. till then I'm working on this campaign for Shadow Dark that I might release for free on itch and a few versions of Mörk Borg also something worth you checking out. Get the bare bones PDF for free! See what you think can't wait to hear it.
@@FamilyTableTop Your player is correct. 😊 I will admit to being biased. 😅 Back in 99 when 3e was released i went "nah" and stuck with od&d. Been DMing it for almost 30 years now. Seems like you had a good time. All of the flavours of D&D growing out of the OSR has been great for the longevity of "traditional D&D". I'm just happy whenever anyone gives the "old way" a chance. 🙂
It is wonderful to hear they broke out of the character sheet prison. I love hearing they had fun in the OSR mindset. Those creative moments are where epic stories come from. Knave 2e is another game that challenges the players to think differently. It is also worth just getting for the tables.
@@cybermerlyn2 I have knave and I really like the maneuver system - I’ve thought about modifying my game with those maneuvers and maybe even the Crits for hits 5 over AC. Have you played a long game in Knave? Like several sessions? On of the things I worried about was that the game would be “too simple” to allow good campaign play.
@@FamilyTableTop I have not, but in the end once you get several sessions into any game (at least for me), the "system" fades into the background and the homebrewing starts. In the end it usually boils down to roll a d20+modifiers VS a TN.
"they don't have a lot of options on their character sheet, so almost immediately became creative to solve their problems" - Now that what i was talking about! Also, if they come up with something creative like jump on the chandelier and drop from it on the enemy then give them advantage! Advantage on DEX check to jump on it and advantage on the attack roll. If they come up with some interesting solution give them LUCK token! If they are doing something that would push the story forward do not rely on the roll at all! Like if they are searching for secret doors and they specifically say i check this wall try to push bricks why even roll?
Yup. People who play newer D&D and Pathfinder get into a trap that they look at their character sheet for "what can I do". This is an extension of video gaming. I can do THIS, cuz I have a button for it. I spam it. I can do THAT, cuz I have a button for it. I can use this to do that cuz I have it in my inventory and the rules say exactly what I can do with it. I cant do this other thing cuz I dont have a button/feat/skill/rule/ability for it on my character sheet (which is likely untrue - you can absolutely try to do that). Older games, or games with less crunch and rules (the ones I enjoy) I say to players - "Dont think of your character sheet as these are the only things you can do - these are the just the things you probably do well...there's so many other things your character can try to do that is not on your character sheet" Done get tunnel vision.
I'm working on learning a couple different non-D&D systems I'm partial to Gary gygax's unpublished legends system my friend is letting me look at. I'm excited to get it all set up to start streaming again soon hopefully.
They would be interesting- I’m probably going to get tales from the loop and savage worlds… or worlds beyond number. You have any strong recommendations- games that would be fun for kids
@@FamilyTableTop I'll always recommend Blades in the Dark for tense gameplay and Dragonbane for fun shenanigans. Of all those I've tried I think these two are the most fun ones out of those I'd consider kid-friendly.
@FamilyTableTop yes, class abilities of course, thieves skills etc. But until late 2nd edition there were no skills or proficiencies that made the role play into roll play. I don't mind rules that give the game master some ideas on how a character can perform physical skills like jumping climbing etc, but I simply ignored some rules when they started adding things like a diplomacy skill, intmidate, insight etc. To me its fun to role-play those things, not turn them into dice rolls.
My players play imaginative in D&D. They don't always do the traditional things even if it would be more efficient. They really are into having their characters do things in combat based on their personalities. Sounds like you all had a great time. Thanks for the information.
@@bigH101 I know that it is possible for people to play creatively in DnD and that’s probably a really fun way to play the game - but still think the games systems are counterintuitive to free creative play. …unless you have a bunch of theater nerds - drama kids think of the craziest stuff.
@@FamilyTableTop Very true. The game out of the box is very high magic and super hero feeling. It took me a while to adapt to 5E. The last edition I played before 5E was 1st edition over 30 years ago. Very different games. I am glad you all had a good time 😀
This was a great story! Thanks for you experience. I would switch the Shadowdark in a heartbeat if there was a “Stardark” sci fi version of it. I want to switch to something and give fantasy a break. I’ve read through Scum and Villainy but haven’t run it yet.
I love games with random character generation. All kinds of fun can spill out of it. Games like the Warhammer Fantasy RPG, and especially those with "lifepath" style chargen such as Traveller, are some faves. Basically a backstory creation mini-game for the 1st session.
@@FamilyTableTop "Lifepath" character generation is when you roll numerous parts of your new PC's history, often with your own decisions mixed in, and it provides all the stats/abilities/etc along the way which are linked to that history. Seth Skorkowsky has a good video on creating a lifepath character in the Traveller RPG on his channel. Highly recommend a watch if you're curious how it works. Like a mini-game and also works great in tying the groups' PCs together beforehand along with starting NPC connections & such.
WELCOME TO THE OSR! We play Moldvay and we're having so much fun it should be illegal. Last adventure our guys had to quickly get down a thirty foot ledge while facing Wyverns. Our Dwarf hammered down a spike with rope (no roll necessary I determined as DM) , our literally insane Barbarian (Fighter) said YOLOOOOO and jumped down the cliff taking the 3d6 damage, then he pulled the rope taught while the wizard slid down the rope using his staff-- again I didn't ask for a roll, as I didn't want to punish the party for thinking of a good plan, and taking 3d6 is enough of a "fair payment" for it. The wizard player goes " My theme song plays as he slides down the rope in slo-mo with a chill smirk". We're still laughing our asses off weeks later. Old School 4 Life!
@@FamilyTableTop "Moldvay" was the original version of Basic/Expert D&D. Came out around '79 or '80 IIRC. Very light version of D&D. A lot of the modern OSR games such as Old School Essentials still use those rules as their basis.
I tried randomly rolling up a ShadowDark character, and I ended up with 7s and 8s for most stats, except for a 15 wisdom and 16 Charisma. I would've never wanted to make a character named "WIS Charisma", but ShadowDark led me down that path.
Love how your first no d&d game is really just d&d again, lol oh boy. It’s all good, if you’re having fun that’s great but I just think it’s hilarious.
If you want your family to keep their characters lounger you could use the PULP MODE on page 111. In my Shadowdark campaign I gave max hp on first level also and its great. The characters are 3 or 4 level now and the players love the campaign so far. The players use their brain a lot and a little bit more hp and luck tokens keep them alive for the most part, we only had a couple characters dead.
When I run a new system (BSH, DW, etc) there is always feeling that gears need some grease at the first session. After that it is easy peasy lemon squeezy
Were you running the gauntlet with them? I'm wondering about so many characters and all the deaths. Really good video about your experiences. And loving the creativity that came from your players. I have been playing and running SD for a little over a year.
@@Tom-om9ds I did do a gauntlet style game… it wasn’t the official one that comes in the Cursed Scroll - I just created a situation that the players would hopefully respond to… So you have any advice for a new DM running the game? Have you found any rules or adjustments that make your games more fun? For example: what level do you have new characters enter the game - in the case of a characters death?
Now are two wolves in me on ShadowDark - one wants to play old-school, serious game of Temple of Elemental Evil 😈 - and second wants to have silly and funny game like you all had great time! 😊
@@WyrdHamster we did have a great time - I understand your dilemma as I would also like to have a crazy intense serious game of Call of Cthulhu with. I silliness - but…
@@FamilyTableTop When you first encounter NPCs/monsters, if their reaction isn't immediately obvious: Roll on a table to see if they attack, are neutral, friendly, etc. Helps to make encounters not be all fights. Maybe could have resulted n the party allying with the goblins instead!
When I switched from GMing 5e to Castles & Crusades there was a learning curve for my group. I had been running 5e and my group, which also includes my son, was used to that style of game. There was some resistance to the switch but now two years later my most resistant are the biggest fans of the system. OSR style games are better IMO because people stop playing their character sheet and start becoming more creative. This is a huge plus over 5e and games like it IMO.
Can you tell me about castles and crusades? A few people have recommended the system and I someone even said you can get it free… but maybe I’m confusing it with another game.
@@FamilyTableTop Its born out of 3e D&D but is its own system. For me it has the old school tone of AD&D but with better rules. Characters are not superheroes. I have found it to be easy to import rules, monsters, magic items from other games in to C&C. It is produced by Troll Lord Games. You need two books to run the game, PHB and Monsters & Treasures. The PDF for the PHB is free on their website.
So it’s unfortunate to see a brand that we all loved “dungeons and dragons” become this monetized unmanageable over complicated beast that wotc has made it in order to pillage our wallets… we need to break free of “the brand” and play what we enjoy. Make the game fun again for your group and make up the rules you need. That was the vision of the original creators. My game group was there also and once we turned the corner and left Wotc D&D behind we found DCC and ShadowDark and the games are fun again, and we can kinda afford pizza again…
I want this so bad. I have found in D&D my players do NOTHING other than use the abilities of their characters. I need to figure out how to push them to find alternate solutions. I think one of the main keys was the line at the beginning: "By the way, the majority of your characters are probably going to die...." and then "They know they are out numbered, they know they are not going to survive this fight, they are looking into it with the sense that they don't have a lot of options." I need to figure out how to bring this to my tables. Thank you for the inspiration on this!
Probably incentivize it by giving advantage, extra damage, inspiration points, or extra experience points. You could make it kind of an additional part of the attack action in which if they combine it with their attack it gives some kind of bonus. I see players falling into that trap as well of only using what's on the character sheet and not trying to think out of the box. They go in wargaming mode.
That sounds great! And how awesome to be playing that with your family. You said that you disliked the videogame like system from D&D, was there anything else that made you try Shadowdark? Are you saying that because in D&D the sheets are filled with options, your players are getting less creative? I'm interested in Shadowdark because I see so much hype about it. Currently playing D&D with all my groups, but I'm not sure if I can entice them ;-)
@@JanHoos I’m going to make a video explaining all the reasons I changed systems (there are a few reasons) - but the short of it is DnD 5e felt like a AAA video game in a lot of ways. Our combats also took forever
I haven't played this system, but everything i heard about the things they did in combat can be done in other systems. Its not a mindset unique to dnd to think you can only do what's on the sheet.
@@charleswatson2605 I agree with you, that all of the things I described can be done in any game system- I do think some games promote creative play more than others. Do you have a favorite game to run/play?
@@FamilyTableTop no it's an entirely different game, but much of what you enjoy about Shadowdark was inspired by DCC. It blends the low level OSR lethality and character funnels with emergent characters that grow into true badasses. The system is highly dependent on random tables. I suggest this game as your next step 'down the hole' when you're done Shadowdark. As far as compatibility, the book itself is full of random tables that could probably be used spice up any system
@@wileydutkiewicz3569 I wouldn’t say “suckered”… but it is true that I bought the three cursed scrolls. The positive results of playing the Shadowdark system have already been apparent after our first game. But you’re right, I might always tend to buy-in to things. I’ll need to be more careful.
One way I approach introducing games like Shadowdark and OSE to newer players is just give them the stat arrays from modern D&D. Let them have the big numbers. They'll learn over time that it doesn't matter.
"they don't have a lot of options on their character sheet, so almost immediately became creative to solve their problems" - Welcome to Shadowdark, and the OSR generally, brother.
Thank you. It’s good to be here.
Or 5E with no multiclassing, subclasses, supplements and darkvision ;P
@@lucasterable it’s great to be free of all that video game baggage.
I totally experienced this! I run a duet game with my husband. We started up a game of Old School Essentials, and he's had to get really crafty and creative with his 1 hp magic-user. :'D
@@cassidy944 how do you all like OSE?
Love shadowdark ❤
1. Welcome to Shadowdark. 2. Congrats on a wonderfully creative first session for both you and your players. 3. Once the players get used to the freedom of coming up with their own actions that respond and take advantage of the situation happening in the world instead of relying on the limited options that the training wheels of Feats provide, they will probably never want to go back. 4. Don't worry about getting every last rule right. If you had fun, you did it right!
Thank you - we did indeed have fun.
It’s awesome to hear people have the excitement for the way I’ll been playing the game for 40 years!!
Random creation rocks
Thank you. Random creation indeed rocks
Here here!
New subscriber, love shadowdark
This was the brilliance of older versions of D&D. To use game theory terminology: a game has two parts - the closed system and the open system. The closed system is the books, the formulas, the defined powers and stuff on your character sheet. The open system is the brains and imagainations of the people playing the game, all their knowledge and life experiences, what they know about religion, and chemistry, and riding a skateboard, and birdwatching. The emphasis in modern RPGs tends to be on the closed system. Old school D&D relied heavily on the open system. Thus, by not defining a million specific powers, "the solution is not on your character sheet," and the possibilities genuinely become limitless (or rather, only limited per the perameters of your shared imagined worldspace). So, less is more.
Wow - you explain the problem perfectly.
Is there any way to make the modern games work as open systems? Or do you simply play the OS games?
I haven't really tried, otherwise than to encourage creative thinking. I did try to implement an old school style "exploration turn," but it didn't mesh well, and probably that was just more the style I've gotten used to than anything system-dependent. Mostly, of I want old school play, I just pull out an old school game. I still have my BECMI D&D and AD&D 2nd edition books, checked out a bunch of OSR stuff, and I have Shadowdark on order when they do the reprint. Not sure if I'll like all of it or not, but if nothing else, it's worth it for the random tables.
On top of what nrais76 (very correctly!) says, you were also exposed to another game theory dynamic that gets thrown out a lot, especially in sandbox videogames. Emergent gameplay!
I.e. the open system ^^
Exactly. I remember this being a gateway to learning. If we wanted to do something we had to either have experience or knowledge to guide us. So, we looked things up. With the idea of a Medieval to Pre Gunpowder Europe as the default (with fantasy frosting on top) we learned how things might be done or were done.
@@FamilyTableTop One problem you run into is that people who have only played D&D 5e can be a bit like people who have had halloween candy for every meal for the last 12 years. They don't know how to respond to a well seasoned, home cooked meal. You may get push back on taking away all the candy.
That said, there are small things.
1. NO DARKVISION. Offer a feat in trade for it. Or, look at an older edition version and treat it as Infra vision. Seeing heat shows different things, but does not reveal all (like those very cold undead). It is also spoiled by being too close to light like a torch Nerfing darkness as a source of dramatic tension is one of the most boneheaded moves the game has made.
2. Perception, Deception Persuasion, Intimidation and Insight checks are always a DC 20 without specifics. If your players can state how they are making the attempt (what is the action, what are they trying to do, how are they trying it) then you can drop the DC by 5 or or 10 based on the ROLE PLAY they are putting into it.
3. Always put them up against a higher CR than would be "balanced". Award XP for bypassing a fight through cunning or communication. Or use milestone XP and ground advancement in the plot. When fights are hard and monsters are not just XP Piñatas to break open, it can change the tone.
You might want to check out 5e Hardcore mode. www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/303156/5e-hardcore-mode
My personal opinion is that "Avengers go to Renfaire" gaming is overly complex, slow and less rewarding. Having PCs on the fantasy "struggle bus" makes a win feel like more of a win and puts the narrative out in front of the murdermath.
This video has done more for me wanting to run Shadowdark than anything I've seen before. Thank you for this real world example 😁
Thank you for watching. It was really fun. Let me know how your games go… and check out the Cursed Scrolls, I watched one of the creators videos on them, the settings are really interesting.
I picked up them as well, so I'm excited to give them a try. I heard the creator, Kelsey Dionne, say that she's working on the 4th one now, and it's going to have a Hexcrawl.
@@kuraishinobi that’s cool. I like that some of them have a couple of new class options.
The random generation of those two elves with the same name for your son and his mate and how this served as the seed of their backstory is pure gold. No two-page backstory full of cliches and that reads like a pastiche of fantasy fiction can compete with that.
Yeah, it was great. When an Orc killed his friend’s Elf, my son said “I want to run into him and tackle him with my torch. And I want to roll with advantage because he killed my brother.”
I was thinking, “yep, that sounds right!”
what an epic session! THIS is something a 5e player will NEVER get to experience.
It was really fun. And now I’m working on a way to make it an “open world” so that I can allow our players to explore the game in sessions outside our Saturday night games.
@@FamilyTableTop wow great idea! This is how the hobby should be enjoyed, not locked into a "build" or sitting in front of a screen waiting to push buttons...Your passion and willingness to be real is a great testament to what the game COULD be when WE the players actually take what we are given and make it ours. Not just a bunch of consumers waiting for WotC or whatever game distributor to tell us what we can do
@@seanferguson-th6ny yeah, I think my son struggles because he’s used to playing video games and so he plays for the “orange” items - always chasing a slightly higher damage output, or statistic. It’s going to take a little while to get him out of that mind set.
@@FamilyTableTop I get it too because I used to play Star Wars Galaxy of Heroes Mobile game and spent embarrassing amounts of hard earned money on it. I think it's ok to gravitate toward a mechanism that rewards math logic but at the same time you are constraining yourself and the game when it comes to ttrpgs...why attach to minutiae? Minutiae has always lead me to think I could game the game and some current players I game with do that and it's like listening to their turn is like listening to a math lesson. I think as long as you can satisfy some degree of that desire your son has without reducing the creativity then that's fine. Some players want different things out if the game. some want the story others want to roll math rocks and strategize. Ttrpgs offer something video games simply CANT but not all players embrace it
@@FamilyTableTop when my son started playing he came from video games as well. Initially he was only interested in killing monsters and loot. Now he has become one of the best role players at the table.
Nice, I like your style. Happily I get to game with my family too...good times. Thanks for sharing.
What game do you all play?
@@FamilyTableTop Much like yourself, we're moving away from 5E and getting into Free League stuff. In particular I just started running Mutant Year Zero - Genlab Alpha. I'm also enjoying Dragonbane, which I've played a little with my youngest son. In addition to this we play a bunch of board games. As a teacher my real ambition is to get loads of kids into the hobby at school.
I have a black note book called the Book of the Dead, when a character dies the players get together and create a little obituary. Before every game we read from the book if the dead it’s always fun and sets the players minds for the upcoming game. Welcome to Shadowdark.
That’s really clever - I’m going to steal that idea
That's cool! Back when I used to play in Adventurers' League, we had the "Wall of the Dead", which was a corkboard with *fragments* of the sheets of the characters who had died (not the whole sheets, fragments of them, because the tearing of the sheet was a ritual that the local place had)
Great looking setup!
@@marcusflores9502 thank you. It’s been working well for our family group.
We pretty much turned our TV area into a Table top game area.
It's incredible how strong the temptation to play to the rules rather than your imagination. When you get rid of all the "videogame-esque" restrictions, there's a lot more room for imagination. Very cool experience!
This is really great. I think it demonstrates one of the differences between modern D&D and the old-school style; modern D&D is about great stats and character options, while old-school games are about player creativity and problem-solving. I also like another comment I heard comparing 5E and OSR games: when a powerful monster appears in 5E players roll to see if their characters are afraid. When a powerful monster appears in an OSR game, *players* are afraid.
The only nit-picky thing I would say is that the halfling has 3 rounds of invisibility and while the length of a round will vary depending on various factors, a round is each person at the table taking a turn/ action. So 3 rounds means 3 actions..For me, that would probably be about a minute or so, not 30 minutes. But of course, it's open to interpretation, just as the "invisibility" itself is interpreted by some to be literal invisibility, while others say it's just particularly effective hiding. Whatever makes it fun for your group is the right choice.
Glad you guys had a good time!
@@jcraigwilliams70 that’s a good point about the invisibly- I’ll have to look more into the intention of that ability.
So glad it sounded like everyone had a fun time! And it's super impressive that they're already finding ways to use the environment in combat!
I thought so as well. The system made it easier for the players to RP since the game left them without “Generic Movesets”.
Really interesting. Thanks for sharing. This shines a luminous torch light on differences between game systems. I can see why people get attached to their heroic characters and go deep into character builds and the special actions and feats characters deploy in combat with 5E D&D. I’m partial to old school D&D and ShadowDark captures the spirit and style like bottled magic. There is more creativity and exploring how to interact / interject the characters into the setting and encounters.
@@sorenandersen6832 do you have a system preference? Are you playing in a current game group?
Congrats on such a fun experience. Nothing compares to the stories of a well enjoyed RPG session.
Dungeon World is another great fantasy game low-rules easy to learn and play- and leaves all actions and resolutions up to the imaginations.
You either succeed wholly, somewhat succeed but with a complication or fail and spark a complication. "the complications" are always fun ways to narrate cool unfortunate stuff happening in the combats or course of the exploration. And players are encouraged to provide feedback and ideas of what actually happens.
Very good at collective storytelling.
Uh oh. You are going to force someone to do a rant video while sitting in his dark car.
lol - actually laughing out loud.
That guy's a friken legend 😂😂
@@NemoOhd20 that’s awesome 🤪😂
Thank you for this video! I mostly play solo and watch YT vids for ideas and tge way your describe the liberation a player has when faced with an almost empty character sheet is incredibly helpful for me!
No problem - I was a little surprised that it was so easy to get players to play the game like an RPG.
What games are you playing solo?
How is solo play? I have done solo play with card games only so far…
Sounds awesome! And it will only get better as you all become more familiar with the system, which as you already know is not difficult, and quite intuitive. I find the tension added by dealing with the darkness to be wonderful for immersion in the game. Brains of players over buttons on characters sheets is so much more fun in my view. Old versions of DnD were like this, it's the more recent versions that have gone down the novelization of modules/superhero character route. I hope you continue to have a lot of fun with Shadowdark! Feels like I may be seeing you on the SD discord 😁.
His son though. Will wait and find out. As a autistic I had to be FORCED into things. At the same time my hobbies were not promted. On top of that I got no skills until college. My sister on the other hand. So maybe pushing him to dm or OSR might be helpful When autistics get depressed it can lead to bad things. Occrding to Pew Research the occult. The shame and downward spiral often leads to leaches like SP or Elegores forming. An autistics attitude it unchecked will piss people off and cause failure. Failure leads to anger and depression. Add lust and it gets bad.
@@langwaters9653 I’m there, but I just joined …yesterday I think. I noticed there were a lot of creative resources. I’m excited to get to know this system better.
Have you played and run?
@@TempoLOOKING could you explain more about this? Do you think my older son might be autistic? Do autistic people fixate on statistics and number things? I’m a little confused, but I really wan to understand what you mean.
@@FamilyTableTop I've been into OSR for many years now, but I've only been into Shadowdark since January. I'm running it right now for a small group. Currently recruiting local players. I'm running a gauntlet this coming Friday and then a week after that with some folks that have responded to my outreach (meetup group and posting on a local gamestore bulletin board). It will be a chance for them to see if they like the game and for my 3 regulars to see if they like the people. Where those intersect we'll be inviting to our weekly game. I run that game as a DM. I've put in about 25 hours as a player in an online VTT game run by a really good DM. We were going through a very well regarded OSR adventure called Barrowmaze. I'd like to keep playing in that game, but scheduling makes it hard.
Lots of good resources on the discord server. I'm Ouroboros there. Posts by folks like kiwi4BBQ are the ones to look for--sort of the wizened elders and most knowledgeable. I think kiwi was one of Kelsey's original playtesters. Kelsey also replies to comments periodically, and keeps everyone up to date on the announcements channel. If you haven't already sought out her videos, I highly recommend all of them. You'll soon see that she's very talented, very down to earth.
As an aside I'll mention that my original game group of 10+ years tried SD. Three of them liked it and one of them did NOT like it at all. She won't play. This is someone that loves complex character builds, min/maxing, and not dying. Caused some weirdness in our group of friends because I'm done with DnD and she's married to one of the other players. We're all human, we don't all like the same things! Obvious, and true. Good luck with your group 😉.
Fantastic! The OSR old ones have a smile of contentment after hearing this. Don't sweat the rules, what's important is that the principles were followed. Great job Nate!
Thank you.
Exciting! Following this journey
@@SkittleBombs thank you.
Awesome!!! This is where old school or OSR games really shine... The players create the story, and more importantly memories...
Tables and stats and such are cool... but they can't replace the improv stuff like this that just happens out of the blue.
The moment the DM can improv along with them (Knowing their players intimately) vs trying to find a rule or chart is when the game really shines.
Every table is unique, and thus the quip often heard 'Whatever works for your table'.
Congrats!
@@RobbyMaQ thank you so much. We had a really good evening.
no worries... in the off chance you plan to attend gencon, and want to meetup, let me know as I'll be attending with my son and grandson this year after quite the hiatus.
@@RobbyMaQ when is Gencon? And where is it?
@@FamilyTableTopIndianapolis. And August. Heya Robby!
@@Eron_the_Relentless hey Eron! You goin this year? Lmk if I need to bring a kennel for John Wicks dog! 😀
Very awesome crash course dive into the OSR. Love it!
@@ahabicher do you play one of the OSR games?
@@FamilyTableTop Yes, mostly B/X (Moldvay), but used to play quite a bit of LotFP, and I am currently in a BFRPG campaign (very closely related to B/X); and also OD&D (the 3 little booklets from 1974).
I started D&D with 5e but it did not sit well with me for the exact reasons you spelled out as well: long attrition combats and long option lists to select from instead of free decision making. That was what drew me into the OSR fast.
@@ahabicher what is LotFP? And can you remind me what BFRPG stands for (someone already explained it, but I forgot).
I just want to say that the joy and fun you had is contagious! Makes me want to get a game of some kind going. :D
Your wife got the "purple burglar alarm" od role-playing names. Awesome.
@@Langenschwerte she did. So funny.
Fantastic. And a moment of silence for poor Isolden.
Great video! Shadowdark is top of my to-try list.
@@taleofthemanticore the gauntlet was a lot of fun.
Yes, I had this same journey but it took me way longer! I'm really impressed at how fast you progressed through this. I played Old School D&D when I was 10 years old. Then I switched to the modern style (feats, actions, special abilities - very video gamey, not based on imagination anymore) in late high school. I only just re-discovered the "Old Ways" in my late 30s (when I felt disappointment by 5e and like game just lost all tension and creativity)! There's so much more creativity in Old School D&D games, and they are so much more accessible to new players (especially adults who don't have time to memorize all the feats/abilities/combos etc).
Old school D&D games move the "game" from hours of character build strategies (typically done on your own as "homework), to what actually happens at the table. The game becomes about imagination and creativity and what you actually choose to do during the game.
That’s it exactly- old school stuff allows you to play with your imagination. That’s it!
That’s awesome that you figured it out as well so you could be playing games you enjoy more. 😊
What system are you playing in?
Glad your game went well, sis. I just bought the SD Rulebook and look forward to playing it.
Your players levelled up. Not on a sheet. But as players.
@@orkcol true.
You make me want to play Shadowdark now. I am for sure interested in hearing the review from the kids. I run DnD for middle schoolers and I feel like it’s not the right rule set for my group.
My son has told me a few times today how much he liked the new game.
Really happy it went so well for you all! It's amazing just how much the formatting of a character sheet can change a player's mindset
It really made a huge difference
Wait until, like my players, they realize that there is no fantasy Geneva Convention. Cluster bombs, holy water and silver dust Claihdmore Mines, re-using dungeon traps against the inhabitants. Shadowdark really allows player ingenuity to shine and puts it front and center. "The solution is not on your character sheet" is the mantra.
Yes - that is exactly it. I was nervous also about another idea from DnD 5e - what if my players have been ruined by playing 5e? What if they cannot play an RPG?
@@FamilyTableTop Good news, I've run a one-year campaign with Shadowdark, and as long as your bad habits as a DM from 5E are not coming into play, you can break even the most hardcode 5E player of these bad habits using the game system. Tested with a eight-year 5E player, and a 15-year 3rdEd player, both took to the new system after 3-4 games and really started rolling with it. Your attitide as a DM has to really encourage and reward those gonzo solutions the players come up with, but if you're a good DM, you'll get them out of bad habits.
I really appreciate that you shared your experience. This highlights something that I think reflects more on the PLAYERS of DnD than the system itself. There are many times when "Rules Lawyers" play at my tables that I'm DMing. I don't mind their attitudes towards it. However, when I first started to play TTRPG's in the 90's, we didn't have the internet and a ton of books to follow, so we made up a LOT of stuff on the fly. The whole point was to make sure everyone was having fun. But, with the internet, with RUclips, and with streamers, there has been a new generation of players that have almost demanded very clear and precise instructions on how the game 'should' work. I understand this attitude, and am willing to work with it. But, I think that it is less of a product of DnD itself and more of a product of the way that people are playing it now days. I whole heartedly believe that everything that you did and experienced in ShadowDark could be experienced in DnD, depending on the way that you frame the group at the very beginning. If, as a DM, you are overly specific and strict during character creation, then you are automatically setting the tone of the campaign. I could ramble on, but this is already turning into a soapbox. TLDR, I think that you could take the principles that you have experienced in this session and transfer them into your DnD group and I think that you will find a new world of flexibility and join in that as well.
@@alanvanpatter6352 you are correct. I have already had that thought about DnD… I would need to do a few things to create limits and then I would need to pull down the leveling and XP gain - once players hit lvl 5 things start going off the rails.
I"ve always had the mentality that while rules lawyers are fun killers at times, they have a point - if you don't want to play by the rules, (rules be damned), then play a different game that doesn't have so many rules.
if they had fun and you had a ton of fun as the DM i think it was a smashing success. the way you describe how they played makes me all the more eager to start playing!
Sounds like a fun night.
Whatever works for your table
“You really, definitely, indisputably do not need a detailed character background before play begins. In fact, all you really need is a name, a class, stats, and some equipment, and you're good - because within five minutes of the game beginning you will without fail find your character beginning to take on a personality of his own. This strange and almost mystical emergence of character through play is one of the best things about the hobby, and it amazes me that people have been so determined for decades, to kill that concept.”
Monsters and Manuals Blog, 21 October 2011
@@louislamancusa6331 that is explained very well and that is exactly what happened in our Shadowdark game.
Somewhat that occurred in our DnD games, but mostly with our players who are already into drama.
I used to write backgrounds for my PCs. Now I wait until the first session is done and the character's defining moment in it becomes his or her foundational story.
@@Frustwell that’s a really good practice.
@@FamilyTableTop I did this with the mystic-like Fighter/"weapons master" I mentioned to you on another one of your video's. In his first session he is reduced to just 1 HP. The party are up against trolls and my character has been fighting the last one standing while poised above a cave entrance. Given his position he has a chance to climb out of harm's way but I instead opt to make an Athletics check to have the character dive from his position to attack the troll in the hope such reckless bravery doesn't get him killed or if it does he is to at least die a hero. I succeed and the DM says I can roll the attack with Advantage. One of the dice is a nat 20. The troll dies. And the character is appropriately baptized in its blood. I couldn't have come up with this had I just tried to think of a backstory before the game had even begun.
I sincerely enjoyed the engaging tale of your first Shadowdark experience and appreciated how authentic this video felt-like off-the-cuff reportage. It didn’t feel rambling at all. Happily subscribed! Glad you all had fun, and thanks for bringing the word "consilience" back to me.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate your kind encouragement. I will continue to keep bringing off the cuff reporting.
That such a kind way to describe my rambling.
What an awesome story. It's great to see young players getting introduced to the imaginative problem solving side of RPGs. It's one of the reasons why I have a tendency to enjoy narrative RPGS more than tactical ones. I experienced this as a GM when I ran my first game of Dungeon Crawl Classics several years ago, and my players still talk about those games. I love DCC's way of starting new characters. You basically give everyone 3 to 5 random 0-level PCs, and put them through a dungeon grinder to see who survives. The ones who survive get promoted to 1st level, and you then start the campaign with them. It's a blast.
I haven’t played DCC, what is it like? How does it play?
We’re playing. Shadowdark at the moment and we did a similar thing during our first session. It was really fun.
Do you still play the DCC system?
Sounds like they went with The Princess Bride approach with those goblins :). Great experience!
Love that this went so well!
I am so happy about our game as well. It’s been really fun to have our players coming up with creative solutions to problems.
So glad your players had a great time being creative. My players do the same in 5e. I think it's more about your receptivity to their shenanigans in their responding to challenge than something inherent to 5e or SD.
@@timholbert2002 that is very fair. A player who is interested in roleplaying will likely play well in either an open system or a closed one. DnD and Shadowdark are simply the vehicle to get players to participate in a game simulation, you’re right.
But I do think the vehicle (system) can help get players involved in the game in different ways.
For example - if I wanted to get a group of players to explore their in-game descriptions of actions, I might try to play Tales from the Loop. The system in that game rewards players for creatively participating in the story adventure by allowing them to act as mini-DMs to further describe the scene.
If I wanted to escape the intense pre-prep aspect of TTRPGs I would play Blades in the Dark (or steal their flashback system).
Different systems will inspire different styles of play. A great DM and helpful players will excel in any system. It sounds like you are a great DM and you have really good players. 🤗
Have you played any other game systems aside from DnD 5e?
Thanks for the video. I’m interested in trying Shadowdark or Nimble 5e. I played 1e and 2e D&D as a teen and 5e D&D the last 5 years.
How have you liked DnD 5e?
@@FamilyTableTop I love 5e with some house rules. I hate how painful character creation is in it though. If I get new players I will create the character for them based on what they want to play so they don’t have to go through the slog.
@@ScottnCarol4JC have you gotten better at creating characters? How long does it take you?
@@FamilyTableTop Ya, it takes me long enough to wish it was as fast as the OSR, but my players have no desire to play with the gritty realism of the old school.
Your son: "For my fallen brethren" throws torch.
Hell yea tho this sounds like such a perfect first game! And I'm glad you tried it out! Not as weird rules wise as you originally thought huh.
No, not at all. It was not so difficult switching. It was really fun once I allowed myself to relax.
Have you tried playing and running?
As they were playing I thought the gauntlet must be really fun.
@@FamilyTableTop also, you say the things that I feel and say about DnD which is why I'm a big fan, because it unfortunately just took me a lot longer to see all the issues, was a big big fan of 3.5, 4 was ok and 5 was cool in the first few years it dropped.. but it's not a good game at least at the very least not for me.
As for running a game and playing a PC, yes cause I've been testing a campaign I'm building solo and sometimes with my partner playing, it's actually way more intuitive and I feel like because your PC isn't overpowered you can't steal the thunder or dramatically change the story like a typical GM lead PC in DnD.
As for relaxing that can be very hard with new systems, especially ones that might not be on everyone's radar as an enjoyable game, but games like shadow dark are the reason I enjoy TTRPGs, and many years ago started working on my own, I'll get around to releasing it someday.. till then I'm working on this campaign for Shadow Dark that I might release for free on itch and a few versions of Mörk Borg also something worth you checking out. Get the bare bones PDF for free! See what you think can't wait to hear it.
@randomtvninja which PDF do you mean? I would be happy to look through something.
Great to see you break free from D&D to instead play D&D. 😆
Joking aside, welcome to the OSR and all different flavours of traditional D&D. 😉
lol - well done. But honestly you’re correct. One of my players commented that the game felt like DnD but without all the bloat.
@@FamilyTableTop Your player is correct. 😊
I will admit to being biased. 😅
Back in 99 when 3e was released i went "nah" and stuck with od&d. Been DMing it for almost 30 years now.
Seems like you had a good time. All of the flavours of D&D growing out of the OSR has been great for the longevity of "traditional D&D". I'm just happy whenever anyone gives the "old way" a chance. 🙂
It is wonderful to hear they broke out of the character sheet prison. I love hearing they had fun in the OSR mindset. Those creative moments are where epic stories come from. Knave 2e is another game that challenges the players to think differently. It is also worth just getting for the tables.
@@cybermerlyn2 I have knave and I really like the maneuver system - I’ve thought about modifying my game with those maneuvers and maybe even the Crits for hits 5 over AC.
Have you played a long game in Knave? Like several sessions?
On of the things I worried about was that the game would be “too simple” to allow good campaign play.
@@FamilyTableTop I have not, but in the end once you get several sessions into any game (at least for me), the "system" fades into the background and the homebrewing starts. In the end it usually boils down to roll a d20+modifiers VS a TN.
@@cybermerlyn2 that makes sense.
"they don't have a lot of options on their character sheet, so almost immediately became creative to solve their problems" - Now that what i was talking about! Also, if they come up with something creative like jump on the chandelier and drop from it on the enemy then give them advantage! Advantage on DEX check to jump on it and advantage on the attack roll. If they come up with some interesting solution give them LUCK token! If they are doing something that would push the story forward do not rely on the roll at all! Like if they are searching for secret doors and they specifically say i check this wall try to push bricks why even roll?
Thank you. Your suggestions yesterday and Friday were really helpful. The game went better because of your help.
@@FamilyTableTop Thanks! That's sweet :)
Yup. People who play newer D&D and Pathfinder get into a trap that they look at their character sheet for "what can I do". This is an extension of video gaming. I can do THIS, cuz I have a button for it. I spam it. I can do THAT, cuz I have a button for it. I can use this to do that cuz I have it in my inventory and the rules say exactly what I can do with it. I cant do this other thing cuz I dont have a button/feat/skill/rule/ability for it on my character sheet (which is likely untrue - you can absolutely try to do that).
Older games, or games with less crunch and rules (the ones I enjoy) I say to players - "Dont think of your character sheet as these are the only things you can do - these are the just the things you probably do well...there's so many other things your character can try to do that is not on your character sheet" Done get tunnel vision.
@@Frostrazor you’ve explained all of that really well.
I'm working on learning a couple different non-D&D systems I'm partial to Gary gygax's unpublished legends system my friend is letting me look at. I'm excited to get it all set up to start streaming again soon hopefully.
Can't wait to see your reaction to running a game for them that isn't related to D&D!
They would be interesting- I’m probably going to get tales from the loop and savage worlds… or worlds beyond number.
You have any strong recommendations- games that would be fun for kids
@@FamilyTableTop I'll always recommend Blades in the Dark for tense gameplay and Dragonbane for fun shenanigans. Of all those I've tried I think these two are the most fun ones out of those I'd consider kid-friendly.
You video reminds me of why my favorite editions of D&D were 1st and 2nd edition
Did they have similar character development? Limited abilities?
@FamilyTableTop yes, class abilities of course, thieves skills etc. But until late 2nd edition there were no skills or proficiencies that made the role play into roll play. I don't mind rules that give the game master some ideas on how a character can perform physical skills like jumping climbing etc, but I simply ignored some rules when they started adding things like a diplomacy skill, intmidate, insight etc. To me its fun to role-play those things, not turn them into dice rolls.
@@captainhrothgar4637 I absolutely agree.
Sounds to me like you all can have a great time playing just about anything.
@@Le0byn I think the OSR system has made the creative play more likely.
My players play imaginative in D&D. They don't always do the traditional things even if it would be more efficient. They really are into having their characters do things in combat based on their personalities. Sounds like you all had a great time. Thanks for the information.
@@bigH101 I know that it is possible for people to play creatively in DnD and that’s probably a really fun way to play the game - but still think the games systems are counterintuitive to free creative play.
…unless you have a bunch of theater nerds - drama kids think of the craziest stuff.
@@FamilyTableTop Very true. The game out of the box is very high magic and super hero feeling. It took me a while to adapt to 5E. The last edition I played before 5E was 1st edition over 30 years ago. Very different games. I am glad you all had a good time 😀
This was a great story! Thanks for you experience. I would switch the Shadowdark in a heartbeat if there was a “Stardark” sci fi version of it. I want to switch to something and give fantasy a break. I’ve read through Scum and Villainy but haven’t run it yet.
Some people have been recommending Mothership and Tales from the Loop - mother ship sounds like the gritty space drama you might be looking for…
I love games with random character generation. All kinds of fun can spill out of it.
Games like the Warhammer Fantasy RPG, and especially those with "lifepath" style chargen such as Traveller, are some faves.
Basically a backstory creation mini-game for the 1st session.
What is lifepath style chargen? Someone else mentioned that Shadowdark had a lifepath addon… or something, but I don’t know what that is.
@@FamilyTableTop "Lifepath" character generation is when you roll numerous parts of your new PC's history, often with your own decisions mixed in, and it provides all the stats/abilities/etc along the way which are linked to that history.
Seth Skorkowsky has a good video on creating a lifepath character in the Traveller RPG on his channel. Highly recommend a watch if you're curious how it works.
Like a mini-game and also works great in tying the groups' PCs together beforehand along with starting NPC connections & such.
WELCOME TO THE OSR! We play Moldvay and we're having so much fun it should be illegal. Last adventure our guys had to quickly get down a thirty foot ledge while facing Wyverns. Our Dwarf hammered down a spike with rope (no roll necessary I determined as DM) , our literally insane Barbarian (Fighter) said YOLOOOOO and jumped down the cliff taking the 3d6 damage, then he pulled the rope taught while the wizard slid down the rope using his staff-- again I didn't ask for a roll, as I didn't want to punish the party for thinking of a good plan, and taking 3d6 is enough of a "fair payment" for it. The wizard player goes " My theme song plays as he slides down the rope in slo-mo with a chill smirk". We're still laughing our asses off weeks later. Old School 4 Life!
@@rayortiz313 that all sounds awesome. Could you tell me what Moldvay means?
@@FamilyTableTop "Moldvay" was the original version of Basic/Expert D&D. Came out around '79 or '80 IIRC. Very light version of D&D. A lot of the modern OSR games such as Old School Essentials still use those rules as their basis.
I tried randomly rolling up a ShadowDark character, and I ended up with 7s and 8s for most stats, except for a 15 wisdom and 16 Charisma. I would've never wanted to make a character named "WIS Charisma", but ShadowDark led me down that path.
Great example of less is more
@@mykediemart it really was.
Love how your first no d&d game is really just d&d again, lol oh boy.
It’s all good, if you’re having fun that’s great but I just think it’s hilarious.
@@coldstream11 I would agree that Shadowdark is similar, but it’s extremely rules lite. Have you played ShadowDark?
If you want your family to keep their characters lounger you could use the PULP MODE on page 111. In my Shadowdark campaign I gave max hp on first level also and its great. The characters are 3 or 4 level now and the players love the campaign so far. The players use their brain a lot and a little bit more hp and luck tokens keep them alive for the most part, we only had a couple characters dead.
That’s awesome. How had it been for you running the game? Do you prefer the system?
@@michelcaron2933 and thank you for the recommendation of using Pulp mode - that’s a good idea 👍
My first session I had a wizard crit fail their first spell on their first action. They exploded on the spot, everyone still talks about it.
HA! Literally LOLing. That’s an awesome ending.
When I run a new system (BSH, DW, etc) there is always feeling that gears need some grease at the first session. After that it is easy peasy lemon squeezy
Is DW Dolemnwood?
@@FamilyTableTop Dungeon World, one of the Powered by the Apocalypse games
@@Hallinwar ah.
Were you running the gauntlet with them? I'm wondering about so many characters and all the deaths.
Really good video about your experiences. And loving the creativity that came from your players. I have been playing and running SD for a little over a year.
@@Tom-om9ds I did do a gauntlet style game… it wasn’t the official one that comes in the Cursed Scroll - I just created a situation that the players would hopefully respond to…
So you have any advice for a new DM running the game? Have you found any rules or adjustments that make your games more fun?
For example: what level do you have new characters enter the game - in the case of a characters death?
Now are two wolves in me on ShadowDark - one wants to play old-school, serious game of Temple of Elemental Evil 😈 - and second wants to have silly and funny game like you all had great time! 😊
@@WyrdHamster we did have a great time - I understand your dilemma as I would also like to have a crazy intense serious game of Call of Cthulhu with. I silliness - but…
Did you use reaction rolls and morale checks for monsters and npcs?
I remembered the morale checks… a bunch of the goblins failed when the chief died.
Can you remind me what the reaction checks are?
@@FamilyTableTop When you first encounter NPCs/monsters, if their reaction isn't immediately obvious: Roll on a table to see if they attack, are neutral, friendly, etc. Helps to make encounters not be all fights. Maybe could have resulted n the party allying with the goblins instead!
When I switched from GMing 5e to Castles & Crusades there was a learning curve for my group. I had been running 5e and my group, which also includes my son, was used to that style of game. There was some resistance to the switch but now two years later my most resistant are the biggest fans of the system. OSR style games are better IMO because people stop playing their character sheet and start becoming more creative. This is a huge plus over 5e and games like it IMO.
Can you tell me about castles and crusades? A few people have recommended the system and I someone even said you can get it free… but maybe I’m confusing it with another game.
@@FamilyTableTop Its born out of 3e D&D but is its own system. For me it has the old school tone of AD&D but with better rules. Characters are not superheroes. I have found it to be easy to import rules, monsters, magic items from other games in to C&C. It is produced by Troll Lord Games. You need two books to run the game, PHB and Monsters & Treasures. The PDF for the PHB is free on their website.
@@Decado1628 thank you. I will check it out on the site.
@@Decado1628 how does your son like the new system? How does he like RPGs in general?
@@FamilyTableTop you are very welcome. This past weekend I ran the 40th session of our campaign so I am big fan of the system and company.
So it’s unfortunate to see a brand that we all loved “dungeons and dragons” become this monetized unmanageable over complicated beast that wotc has made it in order to pillage our wallets… we need to break free of “the brand” and play what we enjoy. Make the game fun again for your group and make up the rules you need. That was the vision of the original creators. My game group was there also and once we turned the corner and left Wotc D&D behind we found DCC and ShadowDark and the games are fun again, and we can kinda afford pizza again…
I want this so bad. I have found in D&D my players do NOTHING other than use the abilities of their characters. I need to figure out how to push them to find alternate solutions. I think one of the main keys was the line at the beginning: "By the way, the majority of your characters are probably going to die...." and then "They know they are out numbered, they know they are not going to survive this fight, they are looking into it with the sense that they don't have a lot of options." I need to figure out how to bring this to my tables. Thank you for the inspiration on this!
Are you playing in DnD 5e?
Probably incentivize it by giving advantage, extra damage, inspiration points, or extra experience points. You could make it kind of an additional part of the attack action in which if they combine it with their attack it gives some kind of bonus. I see players falling into that trap as well of only using what's on the character sheet and not trying to think out of the box. They go in wargaming mode.
@@FamilyTableTop Yup 5e!
@@MarkCherkowski do you enjoy DMing 5E?
@@FamilyTableTop I have DM'd about 65 3-hour sessions of 5e. I like to DM. There are things I like and things I don't like about the system.
Do GURPS!
Kyros? Zoro? Sounds like some one piece enjoyers. Digging your thoughts and basically journey out of D&D
Thank you. Are those character names from Anime?
@@FamilyTableTop of course! Yes, they are; it’s the one about pirates, if that helps narrow it down.
That sounds great! And how awesome to be playing that with your family. You said that you disliked the videogame like system from D&D, was there anything else that made you try Shadowdark? Are you saying that because in D&D the sheets are filled with options, your players are getting less creative? I'm interested in Shadowdark because I see so much hype about it. Currently playing D&D with all my groups, but I'm not sure if I can entice them ;-)
@@JanHoos I’m going to make a video explaining all the reasons I changed systems (there are a few reasons) - but the short of it is DnD 5e felt like a AAA video game in a lot of ways.
Our combats also took forever
@@FamilyTableTop Oh! I’ll want to see that one for sure. thanks!
I haven't played this system, but everything i heard about the things they did in combat can be done in other systems.
Its not a mindset unique to dnd to think you can only do what's on the sheet.
@@charleswatson2605 I agree with you, that all of the things I described can be done in any game system- I do think some games promote creative play more than others.
Do you have a favorite game to run/play?
Try it with HP being 10 at all times, it’s the middle of the road approach
What do you mean? Like allow each player to have 10hp at the start?
@@FamilyTableTop yeah 10 HP from
The start is like having 3 lvl1 characters worth of HP
What is that map lol
That was the entrance to our goblin mine. Lots of mine cart tracks
@@FamilyTableTop it is amazing as what it is, sir. Congratulations.
Play some DCC you'll like it - it leans into everything you like about Shadowdark but gets even more absurd
@@Nick-zd5gf how so?
Can the DCC book be used to support ShadowDark?
@@FamilyTableTop no it's an entirely different game, but much of what you enjoy about Shadowdark was inspired by DCC. It blends the low level OSR lethality and character funnels with emergent characters that grow into true badasses. The system is highly dependent on random tables. I suggest this game as your next step 'down the hole' when you're done Shadowdark.
As far as compatibility, the book itself is full of random tables that could probably be used spice up any system
Ha you got suckered in by shadowdark too. 😂😂😂😂
@@wileydutkiewicz3569 I wouldn’t say “suckered”… but it is true that I bought the three cursed scrolls.
The positive results of playing the Shadowdark system have already been apparent after our first game.
But you’re right, I might always tend to buy-in to things. I’ll need to be more careful.
One way I approach introducing games like Shadowdark and OSE to newer players is just give them the stat arrays from modern D&D. Let them have the big numbers. They'll learn over time that it doesn't matter.
@@mikeh1142 wow - that’s really good. My players have been “whining” about the stats… that’s so helpful.
Well, not so different than D&D5e, the core rule is the same. Just streamlined in the way most OSR games are different flavours of former TSR's D&D
Not so different, but still, fundamentally different. DnD gives you options the way a video game gives you options
Yeah, although the core mechanics are inherited from D&D5e, Shadowdark has a philosophy more in tune with OSR sensibilities
@@MiguelAngelSanchezCogolludo that’s what I noticed
Your camera is probably jittery because of your baseball cap. It steals the auto-focus from your face
Thank you for saying that - I hadn’t thought of that before. That means I’ll probably be doing crazy hair from now on….
We tried something new like you know Western not Country.