(New DM) Why I’m Bored of D&D 5e after one year
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- Our family has been playing Dungeons and Dragons for a little over a year. We have played several different campaigns, each different world settings.
After a year of DMing for our D&D group I have grown really tired of the Dungeons and Dragons system - our combat is a drag, constant gamification of simple rules and player characters with too many options.
#dnd
#d&d
#roleplayinggames
#retrogaming
This is exactly the sort of a guy who will blame McDonalds for his getting fat because they have just so much stuff on the menu.
@@direweaver comparing DnD to MacDonalds is really great - thank you for helping me make my point
@@FamilyTableTop your point, as I heard it, is that D&D is way too rules-heavy. My point is that you are supposed to pick and choose and personalize the experience that massive D&D toolbox offers you. If you are more into storytelling than numbers crunching you can have it as rules-lite as you want.
@@direweaver can you? Don’t you need to work that out with your players? Obviously I can tell my players that I would like to do away with some of the special conditions like paralyzed, but pulling out mechanics arbitrarily is going to influence the systems that are supported by those mechanics. Let’s say that I am unfamiliar with 200 out of the 700 spells in the game - if I limit the interaction of a few special conditions, I have also effected spells without intending to.
@@direweaver How do I pick and choose rules for combat to make it take less time? Why would I not just pick a different system over going through the hassle. Many rules are very interconnected. Get rid of one of them, it affects a bunch of other things. No thank you.
@@FamilyTableTop there are two sources of complex spell effects in your combat: you and your players. If you both find "paralize" effect too complicated, you can agree to exclude spells that cause it from play or change it to something simple.
I mean, I get it. I remember how grapple rules were an absolute nightmare in 3e and me and my group simply refused to use them and instead used a simplified houserule: opposed STR/DEX rolls. That's also an option.
That said, I am surprised how in this particular instance your combat is boggled down. Paralised creatures can't move, fail STR/DEX saves and give enemies advantage when attacked. Is this a complicated rule? What is a simple rule for paralised condition in your opinion? Maybe you have an example from your favorite rules-light system?
"DnD doesn't trust us to make good choices"
Fantastic phrase, 10 out of 10
Nailed it!
Torch rule is Freedom of Choice?
Great to hear your experience with D&D and these other games and hacks. As a heads up, while a number of the games suggested in the top comments do share the "rulings over rules" philosophy and style you're talking about, they do not necessarily match the rules you said you liked. For example, you said you've used Cairn and Nimble to reduce the number of rolls on combat turns, but Shadowdark, Basic D&D, and DCC combat use the same "to hit roll, then damage roll" as 5e. No one game will solve every problem. Whatever these comments tell you to play, just keep doing your own thing and make the franken-game that suits your group!
@@BobWorldBuilder Hello, Bob. I love your channel. Your videos have been a wonderful help our family game nights and your constant suggestions about homebrew ideas have been a blessing.
You are correct about the thing we are looking for - since our group is quite diverse in interests and ages it will require us to shamble together several systems to find what works best for us.
That you for watching Bob.
This! I'm not as diplomatic as Bob so let me say, "You cannot trust any RPG descriptions from strangers". 95% are people repeating a sales pitch or trying to increase the player base of their favorite game. If you go online and ask for a rules light game for only one genre, all the GURPS guys are going to tell you GURPS ( I love GURPS btw ). Same for any criteria you ask for. There is a very real honesty problem in the community about this.
Well said! ❤
Great reply Bob!
Very True Wise Bob. He is still A DM Knight though learning Confidence.... And I'll get into Why Dark in another reply. Ty Bob
The issue is that, since AD&D, Gygax and company realized that, if they wanted to make D&D a viable business, they had to sell rules, they had to convince players and DM that rules were something to be iterated and sold, and that more rules somehow meant more freedom.
lol - when you put it that way, it sounds hilariously silly.
I don't think that we can blame Gary for the WotC debacle. Since he never worked for them and spent many of his later years working on more fluid rule lite games like Castles and Crusades.
Actually that was not Gygax, TSR's other owners ganged up together and Kicked Gygax because he didnt want all these new rules and tons of books to just make money that they ended up pumping out mostly un-play tested.
I'm in a very similar situation. A couple of years ago I realised I just don't like running 5E, made a conscious choice to volunteer to run other games, and now am having a lot more fun.
For me the elephant in the room is that D&D combat just isn't very good. Initiative and turn-based combat makes it uninteractive: you hit the orc, then five or so minutes later, the orc does something in response, and don't even try coordinating cool combination moves with other players. Rules like opportunity attacks punish movement and make it static (unless you're one of the blessed classes that gets to ignore the whole mechanic). And like you said, the sheer weight of rules and options make it slow. If you tried to sell D&D combat as a standalone game, it would flop.
@@carlfishy what other systems have you run that you have enjoyed? Im hearing really good things about a game called savage worlds and Shadowdark… what have you played that made combat fast and fun - I really like your point about creating attack combinations between players.
@@FamilyTableTop Much like you I started branching out with Dungeon World. The first big encounter was amazing: the giant picked up one PC and was about to throw it at another, but just in time a third character ran up behind and hamstrung it, and at no point did anyone say "it can't do that!" or need to look up the rules for grappling.
Right now I'm running Scum and Villainy, a space opera game built on the Blades in the Dark system, and while it's a bit rough around the edges in places, it's a lot of fun. BitD felt weird at first because every roll takes five or six steps to work out, but because each roll is consequential (resolving a challenge, adding a new complication, or both) and moves the story forward, we quickly got in the groove.
@@carlfishy the Blades in the Dark system sounds really interesting. I’m planning on using the timers and flashbacks from that system regardless of what games system we play in.
What do you find rough about Scum and Villany?
Isnt dnd combat the game just baldurs gate?
@@asmallphd9648 if you mean the video game, baldurs gate 3 is based on DnD as far as I know.
Fun > rules. DM on concept. If a character whose background is "Acrobat" wants to jump, eyeball the length thru your own feasibility filter (e.g., normal people can't jump 100') and IF you want a role, then decide what an acceptable result should be and roll with it.
DM is Narrator, why GOT died new DM
I'm so happy for you man, the stuff you're looking at is also what makes me happy in games
Everytime someone embraces rules light sandboxes, an angel gets his wings
Yea you keeping it real guys who have been doing this for Decades like me and Bob follow you for children friendly, insight and it's all DM stories.
But im running a Goblin Shadow Dark...
Rules-light games aren't necessarily the solution here. A rules-light game tends to result in the GM needing to do more work to rule on and decide things, and that can often result in the GM burning out faster, or simply being more difficult to run. Rules-light games can often lack the depth that some players can desire from a game and can often reduce player agency because everything comes down to GM fiat (which can be inconsistent).
It makes sense why that's a conclusion that a lot of people growing frustrated with D&D tend to reach: the problem they're facing is that the rules are a frustration for them, so the logical conclusion is that the presence of rules is the problem, and that's not necessarily true. The problem with D&D's rules is that they're badly designed and cumbersome, and often result in _Ludonarrative Dissonance_ (the feeling where the fiction of a game and the systems of that game seem to clash).
But it's a Roleplaying *Game* - the game part is just as significant as the roleplaying part. And many games actually have mechanics that serve the fiction of the game and flow more naturally.
It's good that you're trying to find a system that fits your playstyle better - that's the better solution overall. But while the ideal solution for you might be rules-light - that is still an absolutely valid option - it isn't _the only_ valid option. Sometimes, though, it might be worth looking into something that still has solid rules, but where the rules support the same kinds of activities as the narrative and the fiction, rather than feeling like they get in the way.
I'm a gamer maker and I saved this video. You;re the type of person I make games for.
@@xarisgames Do you have any games completed? We are playing several systems at the moment, but we love trying new systems.
You nailed my issues with 5th Ed. I just took my group back to adnd 2e which is much more loose with its rules. There is a lot more just left up for dm call. It's obscure rules or completely optional rules helps a lot. I started playing in 2000 and learned 3.0. when 3.5 came out our dm was done with it and took us back to adnd 2e. We took a few things from 3rd to flesh out movement a bit. But generally it was more story based with less abilities.
I DM for my son who is on the spectrum and has ADHD. Things I found that help him is have a short game , we play 2 hours every week. I have several papers that we put in the middle of the table that have important info and info we tend to forget like when to use investigation or perception and such ( this way I don't have to be responsible for know everything by heart and hubby and son can look up things when it isnt their turn to figure things out. I have custom made my sons character sheet and it makes it super easy for him to see what he can do and choose what to do(I put little stickies with things like um the heal that a fighter does and one box the sticky is in when its isnt used and then he move it to the other box when he has used it for the day. I make me own char sheet when I am a player as well with stickies for all my spells and such, it makes keeping track of resources so easy :D
@@tinaprice4948 those are great ideas. Does your son enjoy playing?
@@FamilyTableTop very much :) but 2 hours is about all he can do in a session :D
Rules we all knew in the 80s, you have 6 seconds to tell the Gm what you are doing or you do nothing. Sounds harsh, but it sped up combat in every system we played. And since when does you character have 5 minutes to figure out what they doing in the next few seconds? If they take longer to decide what they doing then the turn lasts it does drag out the game. Quick turns add tension, realism and encourages quick thinking, and the whole table is invested in each turn. Mistakes get made, and that adds to the fun.
@@ericaltmann5711 I have been thinking about that… I might begin doing something similar. Great suggestion, thank you.
So, you have a game that wants to give a player a ton of options but refuses to give that player the time to make their choice.
Do you want players to have choices or not?
@@AndrusPr8 I don’t care what you do. I am simply telling you the way we used to play. Play how you want, and we will play how we want.
@AndrusPr8 too many options/skills/powers is part of the problem. Too much crap to look up and remember, just tell the DM what you want to do!
You should look at Shadowdark. 5e familiarity, rules light, fast.
@@kipkulich6042 thank you for the suggestion! Shadowdark looks really good.
What is your favorite RPG system?
Knave 2E is even spare and very fun, and is compatible with all your D&D, despite having a quite different system.
@@Len0Grady that’s what I’ve been looking at along with MausRitter, Blades in the Dark and Cairn… Knave seems similar to Cairn but the combat is more fleshed out.
What’s your favorite system?
Rules light means just making stuff up and not being consistent.
@@FamilyTableTopPLEASE, Please check out EZD6 By DM Scotty!!!
I wish my group would get bored of 5e. They recently decided to take a break from D&D...to play D&D! It is so maddening. I have actually tried to get my character killed in games, and still haven't been able to. 5e is super heroes in plate mail. it no longer is about the Hero's Journey.
@@scottwalker6947 lol. What system would you prefer playing in?
@@FamilyTableTop How long do you have?
@@scottwalker6947 list them all - I’m looking into new systems with mechanics that are centered on fun over gameyness
@@FamilyTableTop What genre are we looking at?
@@scottwalker6947 right now we are playing 5e in an Eberron setting. I think my players really like the high fantasy future sci-fi setting, but I think they would also enjoy a low fantasy setting or something unique like MausRitter.
At this point I’m interested in playing whatever setting or game mechanic keeps the game flowing quickly and lowers my game time prep.
I’m tired of running WOTC campaigns with their plot driven narratives - it’s too hard to run plot driven games with my players.
Basic Fantasy RPG is like a mix between B/X and AD&D. Shadowdark is great. Savage Worlds is a lot of fun. Knave and Into the Odd are both great for low-stress prep games. Dragronbane is my FAVORITE game to run right now. Forbidden Lands is gritty and so much fun to run. Cypher System has a huge book, but the mechanics are QUICK. Index Card RPG is also wild. Every one of those games is faster than 5e. Cypher System/Numenera has the most complex character builds but, to make a monster you say, “It’s level 5” and your pretty much done (jot down notes on how you run it in case you want to use it again).
Runehammer's "Crown and Skull" or "ICRPG" are both shakeups! He likes to challenge the fundamentals of RPGs and distill what makes them fun. I will say, that the onus tends to be on the DM and players in putting characters together. Fleshing out spell details for example. Newer groups or groups who just wanna just run a game right out of a book may feel a bit lost. However, they are absolutely great for creative/homebrew/experienced players who want to feel like they are helping build the world collaboratively
Dropping the name Legend in the Mist here, currently on late pledge Kickstarter I believe, using an upgraded version of the City of Mist system:
It’s a fantasy game all about narration, so let go of all kind of number and let your imagination and creativity go crazy. But the rules work very well for it! Combats are super fast but meaningful cause instead of removing HPs you receive statuses that affect your rolls in the concerned area of narration (as an example, you might have received the status « broken leg - 4 » from an attack, that will remove 4 on your rolls for running away, but not affect your rolls using a crossbow for example)
I haven’t tried Legend in the Mist, only City of Mist, but the principle is the same except that the system is more streamlined
Also the character creation is limitless, those games are basically about: create and do whatever you want, the rules will balance it for you. It works with tags
A tag is a short description of what your character can do, or have, like « a sword » or « see though walls », tags can be anything when you create your character (following the guidelines)
Each tag add +1 to your rolls, as long as you can narratively justify why this tag applies to the roll you’re trying to make
As a result, you can either have a very good specialized character with similar tags, that will add up on specific areas of action, or weaker but more versatile characters that will only have one tag per roll but can do more different things
It’s not for crunchy people who love minmaxing though, it’s more about having a very cinematic experience
I will also add: no map required to play! It works great just with theater of the mind ^^
@@junkred9466 that sounds like a game that kids could understand pretty easily…
@@FamilyTableTop more than D&D for sure! But it can definitely be a bit hard to grasp your head around the rules at first, as it’s so abstract, for the GM at least. It looks easy but there is so much freedom offered that it can sometimes make the rules actually rather complex to apply, but at least it allows you, as the GM, to have the final word on what’s happening instead of being dependent on rules that you don’t manage to find in the corebook when you need them. And to me allowing players to try absolutely whatever their imagination allows them to think of is very important!
5E is a huge problem. To keep the game flowing, Rulings are important, not rules. The DM/Judge is the rules.
100 percent. At the dawn of the hobby's creation and in earlier editions of the game a DM was a game's referee. Too many today expect the DM to just be a narrator who tells them a story in accordance with a set of rules that are today more player-oriented than they are DM-oriented like they used to be.
@@Frustwell nailed it on the head. 5E is a game designed to milk the energy of a game master while players enjoy a masturbatory power fantasy.
I combined both ICRPG and EZ D 6 rules and its literally the best version I've ever played. Here are the game changers that I use. First and foremost D6 group initiative. Players take turns rolling against the DM every round. Sometimes they win sometimes the DM wins. If they win they go first if its a tie you take turns going back and forth in a big melee. Its fantastic. Magic you just pick a discipline and you make up your own spells on the fly. The more powerful you want to make the spell the more spell burn you take out of your pool in like a sanity mechanic like in Call of Cthulhu. No more freaking looking through spells you just come up with something on the fly. and Finally I got rid of HP and made everything into hits and borrowed Minion mechanic from 4e 1 hit for mobs and lackeys and more hits on boss If it starts to go long you just simply give the boss less hits. You kill the boss when it feels right. Its just that simple and no one is none the wiser.
@@antoniusmaximus3174 that sounds really fun. Which ICRpg do you use? I saw that there is a v2 and v1… any idea which is better?
Well said! You might be a “new DM”, but you’ve got a sharp mind! You’ve explained in a concise fashion the problem that a lot of people have with modern DnD. I hope you’ll update us on how your Frankenstein’d system works out! Best of luck to ya!
If they want to destroy something (the box) that you need to exist, just have the box magically disappear mysteriously when they strike it. Then have it show up at a later location. They can keep trying to destroy it, but it keeps "teleporting". Eventually they will change tactics on their own and try different things. It becomes a game between you and the players.
Or if you need them to go to point B or meet person X down the left path and they go right, just move point B to the end of the path on the right or have them meet person X on the road or in the next town. You don't have to tell them you are doing this. You shouldn't be giving them world maps. They should discover the world and map it as they go. Heck, you could have them all poisoned and they wake up at point B in a dungeon or something. There are no set rules.
@@High-Tech-Geek having the box disappear feels a little bit meta gamey- like railroading the players into a choice.
@@High-Tech-Geek all of these options feel like railroading the players into the plot.
@@FamilyTableTop i think that's the point. It's the DMs job to provide various hooks and doors into the plot that a campaign provides. Dangle shiny objects.
Otherwise, just do world building where your players can do anything. I'm in a game like that and it's extremely boring and frustrating. There's no excitement or adventure.
Dm: what do you want to do now?
Players: i dunno.
The DM needs to give the players some choices. A well written campaign should provide some guidance with that.
Fast combat with consequences, timers with tension, spells with creativity, sounds like an ideal game.
Cheers!
@@freddaniel5099 I know right!
What’s your favorite RPG system?
Regarding light indie fantasy RPGs, I often suggest 'Barbarians Of Lemuria' for a more sword & sorcery style, or 'Advanced Fighting Fantasy 2E' for traditional RPG fantasy. They're both pretty fast-moving at the table, but still include a good amount of PC customization options which are mostly mix & match to taste (no limiting classes). AFF's layout is a throwback to old school layout, but combat is opposed rolls - no initiative to deal with and attack rolls from both sides are often made at the same time. BoL has creative spellcasting so there aren't droves of lengthy spell descriptions. It just requires the GM to choose how powerful it is ( 0-3 ) based on the effect the character wants. There also isn't much math required for either player or GM in BoL.
AFF also has a good amount of splatbooks and some campaigns (based on the old Fighting Fantasy game books) available. They're both easy to GM since stat blocks & such are simple and can even be done on the fly. Both games are on DTRPG for PDF/Print. Lots of great indies out there. These were just a couple which sprung to mind because they're faster moving yet manage to keep enough player options and interactions to not feel too shallow like some do.
I know the Guerilla Miniature Games channel has a quick 1-on-1 playthrough of AFF on his channel which gives a good idea of how that one works.
@@NefariousKoel thank you for the recommendations - I’ll check out the play through on Guerrilla Miniatures channel.
Blades In The Dark is my current favorite. It's not really rules-light, but its subsystems are simple, consistent and fit together well.
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules" - Gary Gygax Also, try out Dread. All you need is a janga tower.
Dread? Like Judge Dread? I will add it to the list and look it up.
A Jenga tower? Really?
@@FamilyTableTop yes! It's tense horror game where anytime a character needs to do a difficult skill check they pull a block. If the tower falls they die. There's some stories I've seen where people topple the tower to sacrifice themselves so other players can live.
ruclips.net/video/H3YWMXjfFA0/видео.html
@@FamilyTableTop yeah it is a fun horror ttrpg and you use the tower instead of dice.
What? That’s really cool. - thank you so much for recommending this. I will watch your link. Thank you.
Which reminds me. When are we getting a review of Dread from Aton?
As an begginer DM just need to memorize the basic rules (attacks, saves, initiative, advantage and disadvantage) with that you can run most of the game, the other things just improv at the moment and later you can look at the rules. After some time you are going to be hable to incorporate more rules fluidly or change them to your own interests. My first dnd campaig was super rules light, and was so fun.
Just made the rules on fly, and you caan clarify that you are going to do it that way for this time al look at the rules later. Questions shouldn't stop the game too much
Just play Basic/Expert D&D (1981) None of these complications exist there. "Can someone do that?" hhhmmm the DM thinks, sure! why not!
The general philosophies of the OSR are your friend. If you can't get a hold of Basic/Expert or don't want to spend the money, get Basic Fantasy RPG. It started by inheriting the basic/simple 5E original stuff, but then hews to the original "rulings not rules" OSR plan.
You haz brain that can model reality quite well; when your brain can qualitatively model reality, you don't need dice checks. If you need a quantitative test or modelling, sure. But when it's obvious that someone can drop a hammer and hit the ground, or read through a scroll to find a key word, just say so.
The Rules Cyclopedia is the only book you need
You think he should go back to THACO? Home Brew rules can be simplified as Gygax intended.
@@TheNaznine Nobody needs to use THACO. You can convert everything in the B/X books to ascending armor class in about five minutes, or get one of the retro-clones that's already done it.
You can do that in 5e too. This guy just doesn't, so in basic he would spend his night looking for a rule that doesn't exist. On the other hand, basic is an entirely different style if game play, so suggesting it as a replacement of 5e is like telling chess players to play backgammon
First Rule: DM rule NO CELL PHONES! They are game killers. I use a laptop to DM, (me and my 7 players meet at a game store) but I prefer they don't have any Net surfing devices. 2nd, make it more narrative. Tactical maps are great, but just roll him. Killed next is a board game. Narrate what happened. Make them part of a story, and maybe random whos initiative each round so they can't AFK till their turn and then have no idea the guy they planned to attack was killed already because they weren't listening. Make a puzzle that they have to talk to each other to figure out (but always make a second way around it, just in case they can't figure it out). 3rd, give them things to look at, handouts, etc. Turn the lights down; make it more of an adventure atmosphere than a dining room. ALSO dotn make your Monsters predictable, have them doing crazy things as well, have one thats acrobatic, jumping all around like a Pirate Ninja or one that looks like a Bum in the streets but hes there to watch the enterance and as they go in he follows them and backstabs the back one. when he attacks he calls for more to join, just keep them Guessing. ... BUT most important RULE is YOu are the DM, if the book saysd they need 10' and you say no they dont, YOU are the DM, so no they dont, Play it how you think fits the story best ! and RPG is just a story you are all writing together ! ... I did look into that Blades in the Dark, but im not a fan of that , you suddenly have the stuff to use in any situation, Because if they dont have it, thats when the McGuiver has to come out, and they have to find another interesting way to accomplish it. ... and I detest the idea you hit automaticly just roll damage, SO all your Monsters are stupid, cant dodge, cant reposte, etc Just do Combat Hit, Damage, but make it Less Modifiers so not much Math, 5e is terrible about add this that, then Roll 2 dice for Advantage or disadvantage, than, use a superman feat, and then ytou do reaction action after you non action action , before your combat action, Just to much, Move your Movement distance if you can reach an enemy Roll to hit, hand them a D20 and the Damage Dice, like D8 and they roll them together, If it hits they just read off the damage dice, You keep track whos really strong and etc and just when keeping Hps on monsters toss in more or less demending on what they do as damage, and to make the Hps fast and easy to calculate, they did 8, hes fighter, Ill make it 10 when I subtract it from the monster on my list. .. dont make it you hit the monster for 8, you hit the monster for 6, You hit the monster for 12, you hit the monster for 3 it is dead, another monster steps up ... who was afk in a corner ? You swing your longsword cutting the best across the chest (he did 8 but you round to 10), then the next attack you lung at thebest, driving you sword through its shoulder, he drops his shield and swings at you but is in so much pain he misses, you pull the sword up and split the monster in half, he falls dead at your feet, it isnt abotu the numbers its about the story. alogn with that comes, You swing at the beast and he leabes back and your axe slices just over his stomach, a few hairs flick up as you miss your sing, the best rolsl backwards and throws a dagger at you, it hits your shield as you blocl it before you charge in to finish the beast off.
Thank you for explaining all of that - you make some really good points here.
What system do you usually play in? Do you have a favorite game system?
@@FamilyTableTop I Dm a AD&D 1e Lankhmar Campaign Every sunday for 7 Players at a local Game store, Currently and I play as a Player in a 10 man group on Thursdays. .. Mostly all older players. ... 1e is still my favorite, But Ive tried alot and really want to run a Savage worlds Dead land campaign when we get time, I have 2 rpg conventions coming up, I like to pick other systems to see how they run as well.
I sympathize as someone a little further along down the rabbit hole. Rules light systems inherently leave more room for GM discretion. A lot of games have been suggested. I would say EZD6, Shadowdark, ICRPG, Cairn, Knave.
Faster turns especially in combat. Instead of 30 feet for movement, it’s Near, Far, out of range. Simple example that encourages questions and quick answers.
The more words on your character sheet or in your abilities, the less freedom we have to interpret cool actions.
@@fablesfounding3870 which system do you play most often? As in, which is your preferred system to take new and experienced players into?
@@FamilyTableTop currently EZD6, and shadowdark will be next. 3 strikes your dead for health in EZD6 is awesome. Our latest campaign just had its fourth session, everyone brand new to EZD6 and one person brand new to the Hobby in general. It’s great because there is no math, just number recognition. “You need a 3 or higher to jump the gap”
We play a lot of systems, with short campaigns (8-12 sessions) and EZD6 gets the fastest immersion.
@@fablesfounding3870 in EZD6 is the rolling similar to warhammers quality testing?
@@FamilyTableTop just target numbers, and players get armor saves.
@@fablesfounding3870 I downloaded EZD6 off DrivethroughRPG, but I didn’t give it too much thought - I’ll look at the system in more depth. Thank you for the suggestion.
Picking what you like from different systems, testing new systems and changing things is a normal part of being a dm over the course of... Some time.
I know that some people never do it, but it is evident after you try different games, that you realize as a dm that there isn't a single perfect system for everything. Some are going to be better for some things than others and just because you are used to one, it doesn't mean it is the best foy you.
Thanks for the shout out!
@@nimbleCo I have been on your kickstarter page waiting to buy the V2 - Nimble is on the top of my list for games to add to my campaign or for a system to play in fully.
Is V2 already out?
Oh, and I would love a copy of V2 rules!
WotC D&D is "Menu D&D". Players study their character sheet like the menu at Cheesecake Factory and it limits what they think is possible (taken from Professor DM). Some OSR/FKR adages: "The answer to the problem isn't on the character sheet," "Rulings over rules," "Player skill over Character skill." Nimble's combat solutions are great, also. Check out more OSR/NSR/FKR games.
Your observations are spot on. That’s exactly what our experience of DnD has been - characters scanning the sheet to figure out what they “can do”.
@@FamilyTableTop In the past it was not uncommon for players to come up with clever ways to trick or get around some opponent or even to flee. Because the likelihood of death was much greater. There's nothing wrong with a party of adventures realizing they are beat and so running away but most today believe characters only have one answer to any foe. Fight it. The level of immunity the current edition of the game affords characters makes this almost inevitable. I think such characters lack character. A character who is a coward or one who always at least tries to talk his or her way out of any situation threatening combat is always going to be much more interesting than the one who just can't wait to fight the next encounter.
You have seen Cairn and Mausritter. There is a category of rpgs called OSR, which harkens back to older editions of DnD that focus on rulings over rules. Check out a few of them.
But I really liked the conclusion you came to. Honestly, the correct conclusion for literally every rpg group ever is making a franken-system. Making the game y'all wanna play.
@@epimetrius7348 thank you. What is a rule system that you love?
@@FamilyTableTop personally I love Call of Cthulhu, but that's because I like mysteries. For OSRs, I recommend White Box, Old School Essentials, and Maze Rats.
Mausritter is top tier. Combat is fast and deadly. Inventory management is a fun system. Your class is determined by what you carry, want to be a wizard, carry more spells. Fast and easy!
Welcome to the OSR bro! I came to your same realiztion some years ago and have been having a blast since! Also just frankensteining some OSR mechanics, sandbox based adventures, player agency, exploration! Our community is greeat!
I have gotten that same sense as well. Within the DnD fan base, there seems to be a lot of disdain for players who go to other systems. It almost feels like a religious connection - players who leave DnD are treated as apostates and heretics.
What’s that thing called when a fan base secretly realize their IP is wreaked but they refuse to acknowledge facts… it’s like cognitive dissonance… there’s a word for it I cannot recall.
Huzzah!
Nice video, good points. The trick with 5e is not to worry too much about rules but to referee with common sense and find the consensus in your group. The system is popular because it offers players a world of imaginative options so honour that and make sure the game progresses with pace and jeopardy. That being said other systems are great and everybody is raving about Shadowdark
Free League has a fantasy game called Forbidden Lands that is FANTASTIC. It can be a bit gamey at times, but it's a breath of fresh air having a game feel DANGEROUS again.
@@suburbansurvival8239 some people have been suggesting that game system. What it is like?
@FamilyTableTop Making a character is pretty simple. Once I understood the rules, I could roll one up in about 15 minutes. And as a GM, it's very low prep.
The system is all d6 based, but not in the way most systems run. When you make a skill check, you'll use as many dice as your skills and abilities add up to and hunt for 6s.
So say you want to scout an area. Your Wisdom score is a 4 and your scout is 3. Maybe you use a piece of gear that helps like a spyglass lets say that gives a bonus 2.
4+3+2=9. Roll 9d6. If ANY dice rolled a 6 you succeed. Any 1s may damage your gear or your attributes, but only activate if you "push" your roll.
Combat is quick and brutal, but has enough rules to make it tactical if you WANT to. No damage rolls. Your weapons will have a damage value and any extra 6s add an extra point of damage.
Travel is a hex crawl, with the GM rolling on a provided random encounter table. They are all pretty fun and you can choose to ignore them if the players get on a line they want to follow.
Supply management is weighty enough to make it meaningful but doesn't force you to keep a spreadsheet. Your supplies are measured in different sizes of dice. If you roll a 1 or 2, that die size decreases. Say you have 1d8 food. That doesn't mean that it's a random number between 1 and 8. It means at least once a day you need to roll for food on a d8. Roll a 1 or 2 and the die decreases to a d6. They can go as high as a d12 resource die and measure things like arrows, torches, food, and water.
Magic is weird and feels sufficiently mysterious. It's not just superpowers. Using magic is a real decision and feels more akin to the kind of magic you may see in the Lord of the Rings.
The setting is grim and suspicious by default, but there's plenty of more lighthearted encounters to sprinkle in. And if you really want, there are a couple of settings books.
One negative I have is that sometimes books will reference each other. Not in a predatory way, but something like "here's a cool magic item. If you want to know more about it you could check out X campaign book." They don't withhold anything vital, but I don't like the advertisement.
Another thing to be careful of is that it can feel TOO much like a board game if you get into too much of a rut.
It's become my go to fantasy setting despite it's flaws.
Thanks for sharing your experiences. If it is any consolation, your experiences are echoed by many people who get frustrated by the "heroic fantasy" aspect of D&D 5e, especially after around 10th level or so. It is cool that you are creating your own game. I run two groups; one is a 5e group which does not really want to play anything else (they are young and so they don't know anything else) and a Cypher gaming group (Cypher is a multi-genre highly narrative, rules-light type of game). I really love Cypher so I have found some players who love it as well so that helps. However, I definitely do get your frustration. Good luck to you and your family!
@@KenSexe67 Cypher is the system where you can target separate parts of an enemy?
@@FamilyTableTop not that i know of...there are some out there that allow that but Cypher is not one of them. Cypher has a free primer on the monte cook games website if you would like to learn more about it.
I've been where you have been. Remember, in 5e, as in any system, rules are guidelines. As a DM, a lot of times it's better to just make a ruling and move on as opposed to pausing the game to look something up. I also hear a lot of 5e combat taking forever, but my players rarely take more than a minute to take a turn, even with a bonus action. I don't time them, but I make it clear this is a fight and they need to make quick decisions; it helps keep them engaged when things move quickly. I own Knave, Shadowdark, Blades in the Dark, and several others but the last two summers I have been playing Dungeon Crawl Classics. It's deadly, way more chaotic, and a little faster than 5e while still being a fairly similar system....but as you said I imported a few things I like to it from other systems.
I run BFRPG, which is a LOT lighter. Helps a lot. I agree: don't ditch RPG's, just find something that works better for you.
@@sharpmountaingames9303 what is BFRPG? Is that a unique system?
@@FamilyTableTop Basic Fantasy RPG. All the pdfs are free, the books are pretty much at cost.
Very good community.
Based on 80s D&D. Can't remember if it's based on the Moldvay/Cook stuff or the slightly later Metzer/BECMI stuff.
Loads of scenarios and support books etc available.
Yes for folk D&D!! The tradition of going from GM to game designer is going strong :)
I'm looking forward to hearing what your Frankenstein system consists of because there's a lot of what you're saying here that has resonated with me since I started playing with my family back in 2018 (starting them on modern systems might have been a big mistake for me for sure!). Best of luck, man 🤓👊 Good stuff, IMHO.
I'm coming to the conclusion that the system doesn't matter, because you should never be constrained by it. The important thing is to assemble a group of players and GM who can immerse themselves in roleplay. Throw away stealth checks ask where can I hide. Don't ask for an investigation roll if they say they're searching the desk they find the hidden compartment at the back of the drawer. If they say they want to slide 60 ft down the zipwire and kick the giant in the head tell them to roll 2d6 for damage. Ignore all the rules when you can to reward creativity and you will have more fun. There's nothing worse than being told you're half way down the zipwire and next turn you'll have to make a to hit roll if the giant is still there. Let fun happen.
Fitting rules from different systems together is a lot of work and unlikely to really hang together coherently. But if you want to try it go for it it could be fun. Just remember generally less is more.
I like the cut of your gib. Well said. I’m just learning that the play style you describe is far more interesting than the rules extravaganza system we have been playing.
I’m getting there. Thank you for the play advic.
Try DCC (Dungeon Crawl Classics)
Faster, less crunchier but at the same time with his own system and unique characters, and even the written adventures you can get in the store are awesome! The magic system is way better than other D20 system.
5e is cool, for a while. Me and my friends we came back to 3.5/DCC.
5e core is high fantasy, really hard to settle another tone (politics, dark fantasy, sword and sorcery, etc.) ofc you can set a different theme and tone, but you need to change lot of rules. And even though, you as a DM need to work A LOT in 5e to create a really challenge for the characters.
@@eustaquiomaravillado6158 that’s exactly what I have been struggling with. Trying to create an encounter that is challenged has been so difficult - most of the time I have to adjust things on the fly because either my players are destroying my npcs or my npcs are about to Total party kill.
I was using the CR system strict at first until I realized it was utterly useless -I tried the adjusted homebrew CR system but it wasn’t much better.
@@FamilyTableTop that’s another reason why I left 5e. In other games you don’t have to worry about the CR or balance, you can put a monster or few npcs, creating a good challenge for the players.
5e as soon as you reach 8/9/10th level, characters are demigods with super power and only a few creatures can settle the tone.
I love the 5e bestiary, lore is cool, there’s a lot of good and interesting info. But the monsters suck.
You have a CR 6 monster like the Bodak, a tpk or at least really dangerous creature, and then you have a CR
@@eustaquiomaravillado6158 that’s also been my experience. I nearly wiped the party with a couple intellect devourers - had to make them stop attacking cause the party was obviously overwhelmed.
@@FamilyTableTop If balance is a concern, DCC might not be for you. It's the system where, famously, the wizard can burn all their stats to completely nuke the big bad guy. The rulebook also doesn't have any concrete information on encounter building.
But if you like crazy results from rolls it's a great system. They also have over 50 first party modules, tons of third party, and lots of zines - some of them free (Gongfarmer's Alamanac).
The DCC community isn't large but it does seem very prolific. There's mountains of content for it out there.
Great video, nice to see an honest conversational vlog♥ When Frankensteining I've found it best to keep a base system (5e actually works well for this because its character progression rules are good) and just sprinkle in other rules as suits the table. Our current rulesset is mostly 5e with alot of Index Card RPG and some Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Both of those help to speed up combat and minimize page flipping for rules. *Re 5e death, attacks made from within melee range on an unconscious character count as critical hits p292, and critical hits count as 2 failed death saves on a fail p197. So if they fail the first round of death ST the second time around usually decides their fate. My table has had some very tense moments going into that second round. Whats the average character level right now?
The books are guidelines they even state that. With checks, you determine whether they need to roll or not. You can even change what skill is needed. The book even gives an example of using strength for intimidation checks. It sounds like to me, some of your players may have some type of attention problems. I play with my wife, kids, and friends. I have found those with ADHD tend to draw and etc... However, they can still keep track of what is going on.
I think your hodgepodge of systems makes sense. When I started DMing again about 4 years ago, combat was slow. With experience, it gets a lot quicker.
If players aren't paying attention and take too long, just tell them you will get back to them when they figure it out. That way, they don't get rushed, and the game keeps moving.
As a GM, just make a ruling and look it up later. Don't slow down your game constantly.
Good video. I appreciate your work.
If you were designing a "guideline" book on how to play a game, would you spend 70+ pages on spells with mechanical descriptions? Because I wouldn't
@@AndrusPr8 I don't know. I guess if that is what my player base wants, then yes. Apparently, that is what they are wanting. The rules as written is only expected to be strictly followed in competitive play and organizations like Adventure League. Some players and DMs like written rules and play by that exactly, some don't. As a company that wants to make money and get both types of people, you make a lot of detail for those who want it and tell the others they don't have to be strictly followed. Chapter 8 of the DMG gives examples on how a DM can do things differently than RAW
I do agree with most complaints that the 2014 books aren't well organized. I played in the early 80s - 90s, then started playing again in 2018. This is the easiest edition I have seen, except for the early basic editions. My twelve and eleven year old children had a good grasp of the game within a month or two, so did my wife.
However, not every game is for everyone. It isn't like we have to look at every spell in one sitting. They are there for reference. But as a DM, their ruling is final. If they don't want something to work mechanically then it doesn't. My whole point is to just run the game how you want to run it. Don't worry about every rule in the book. It is meant to have fun, not stress out over.
I do like the ideas the content creator had. I know a lot of people that port ideas from other games and use them in D&D.
Maybe, WotC could make a more substantial basic edition for people who want a less complex system.
@sirhanser3523 why should I spend 40 bucks on a book of "guidelines", if I can get a book with rules I actually like for 0-10 bucks?
@@Valtharr The basic rules for D&D are free. Converted to pdf that is over 500 pages of free material. The cost argument is made invalid at that point. No one states you have to purchase the other books.
In addition, you already stated you like the other rules better. So, why is there even an argument presented by you? It would be unwise to purchase any game you don't like.
very convenient for the designers--make a game, and tell your players that if they want a different game, they can just make their perfect game, out of yours! You just have to design and balance and play test it yourself, with your friends! All the things game designers are supposed to do... much better to play a game that was designed from the ground up to play the way you want, than try to hack D&D into something it's not.
Today I managed to convert my D&D group to a Blades in the Dark group and I couldn't be happier. None of my enjoyment of D&D came from the system, when I run it I'm actively fighting the system to get what I want to the system, whereas damn near everything in Blades impresses me from a game-design standpoint, and the fact that it's a borderline zero-prep game is the cherry on the top. It's so good!
A you tell me a little more? How do you manage to play without prep (haven’t run BitD yet)? What mechanics do you like most?
@@FamilyTableTop there's refreshingly little overhead to deal with in BitD. There's no NPC statlines to set up or track, no exhaustively detailed maps to fill with specific challenges, no need to worry about the spatial dimensions/grid layout of a fight, and as you're reacting to your players' choices, planning would almost be a fools errand in itself. The game gives you a good solid mechanical core that can frame almost any edge-case scenario your players throw at you, and that flexibility is really solid.
All you have to do is daydream some scenarios/capers, maybe a couple specific interactions if you're so inclined, and then you can just run it on vibes.
"What mechanics do you like most?"
What impresses me most is how cohesive the system is, the way the mechanics fit together (rather than just taken individually) is what really makes the system sing. So I'm gonna rable. Sorry!
Obviously the Flashbacks and abstract Load Limits as ways of avoiding the time-sink activities of planning (often for things the GM knows, but cannot say, won't be in the adventure) and shopping (for things they'll likely never use), are fantastic. It's important that Flashbacks cost Stress, they're not I-Win buttons. The tradeoff of Stress for the various boosts and bonuses tracks tension in play really well, players feel the pressure while still being given the tools they need to excel. Teamwork bonuses, 'Pushing Yourself' bonuses (and the various playbook-specific applications thereof), and best of all, *group skill checks.* Someone takes point on the group check, but everyone rolls. The one leading the action is the result for everyone, but each participant that fails adds a tick of stress to the leader. You can't really lift this particular rule and apply it to a game without a singular resource limit, because it's that tradeoff that has the players wondering if it's really worth it (without the cost, it would just be a way of giving everyone perfect stats/skills)
I like that the game specifically details a process for the GM and players to get on the same page about what they're attempting to achieve, letting them make informed decisions about their actions and potential consequences... I've always conceptually enjoyed rules-follow-fiction and fail-forward games, and it seems to implement it well.
I'll cut this short so I don't bury you under a mountain of text, there's a lot that I love about this system and it's the one I am most interested in currently, and if there's any specifics or particulars you'd like me to expand on I'm more than happy to talk shop ^_^
Oh, and the fact the setting has some material reasons as to why your players might wish to refrain from being murder-hobos is also kinda neat
Bro, Rule 0, the DM has the final say. It's called the rule of cool, if it makes sense, and it is fun, and it is cool, and you like it, it's allowed.
Then why even buy a 40 dollar book in the first place?
Sounds like his Players enjoy even if he is just worried too my uch😮
Basic Fantasy RPG is like a mix between B/X and AD&D. Shadowdark is great. Savage Worlds is a lot of fun. Knave and Into the Odd are both great for low-stress prep games. Dragronbane is my FAVORITE game to run right now. Forbidden Lands is gritty and so much fun to run. Cypher System has a huge book, but the mechanics are QUICK. Index Card RPG is also wild. Every one of those games is faster than 5e. Cypher System/Numenera has the most complex character builds but, to make a monster you say, “It’s level 5” and your pretty much done (jot down notes on how you run it in case you want to use it again).
But I love your picks for a Frakensystem.
Could you tell me about DragonBane? I keep hearing about that system and Savage Worlds… I have now watched a few videos explaining SWs - what is it about DragonBane that you like so much?
@@FamilyTableTop I’ve got a number of videos on it on my channel but here’s the run down.
1. It’s roll under and skill based.
2. Initiative is card based and players can swap cards.
3. Monsters auto-hit, some adversaries are treated like NPCs.
4. Players can choose to have their character parry or dodge an attack to avoid damage, but it uses their action for the round.
5. It’s got duck people. I’m not big on animal people a lot of times, but duck people are great.
6. It has great exploration and traveling rules.
7. The artwork is STUNNING.
8. The box set is NOT a “starter set” it’s everything you need to play the game. EVERYTHING.
9. Everything moves FAST.
10. I’ve never been bored with it either as a player or as a GM.
11. No spell slots.
Thank you for letting me know about the videos on your channel… I will come by and take a look.
Thank you for taking the time to explain the basics.
That sounds really interesting- thank you.
@@FamilyTableTop No problem. I love chatting games!
Best pbta game for dnd players is irosnworn .
I think ICRPG is the best fast pace rules lite d20 roll high game.
Shadowdark is the best OSR game for dnd 5e players.
Then you have stuff like 13th age, dragon bane , knave cairn all the real OSR clones like basic fantasy rpg or OSE.
I must be really old-school. I saw ICRPG and went immediately to Iron Crown not Index Card lol
talking about PBTA games for d&d and not saying Dungeon World...why would I use Ironsworn?, it has no magic system or rules for fantasy species at all.
As a long time player and dm, I completely agree with 5E just not being fun anymore. My players are currently 7th level and incredibly powerful. I have mistakenly said that characters are prime examples of their race/class but not the Avengers. I was wrong. In 5E they ARE supposed to be the Avengers and will achieve god like status at end game. Except Avengers can actually die.
I will add that just altering the rules of 5E doesn't always work out with players in spite of me wearing my "Because I'm the DM, that's why." T shirt.
@@Eden_North I have noticed those issues as well. I would often say “no, you cannot do a thing”, and my players would argue that they could… or they’d roll and get a natural 20…
It was really hard to wrestle them out of the superhero fantasy.
Castles and Crusades. Dungeon Crawl Classics.
Yes!! ❤
Welcome to the wonderful world of homebrewing! Games are usually the best once you learn how to tailor them to meet your group's specific tastes! Always look for opportunities to steal cool ideas from one game and plug them into another. The game I'm currently running is my own custom Star Wars RPG based on a set of ultra-lite rules that I've done some extra homebrewing to in order to spruce it up. Good luck and hope you continue to have fun with the family!
How do you like the Star Wars game? I have gotten a few recommendations for that system. How does it play?
@@FamilyTableTop My current campaign is based around an indie RPG you can find on DriveThru RPG called "Black Star" and added my own extra bits to it. It's very rules light and I've come to like the system immensely. Combat is really fast and doesn't take a lot of bookkeeping. If you're interested in a sci-fi/space opera type of game, give it a look. It's only a few dollars for the PDF.
I've also played every official Star Wars RPG. I think the best was still the original from West End Games. To be honest, I'm not the biggest fan of the newest one by Fantasy Flight. It's a fairly rules-heavy game in its own way, maybe not as complex as D&D but it's not a simple system. The custom dice are also neat but a bit fussy to use, in my experience. There are some cool ideas to it, for sure, but these days I just prefer something very light and fast that leaves plenty of room for the players (and GMs) to be creative.
Rule #1, in my game group: The rules are only guidelines. The DM has ultimate say.
In short, don't like the rigidness of the rules, ignore them, and run the game how you want.
I will forgo rolls if the player narrates their action in a dynamic way.
Also, sometimes the narrative is more fun than the counting numbers. It comes down to thinking for yourself, and not waiting for "Master WotC" to tell you how to do it. 😊
You’re totally right, but three of the member of our group do a great job of learning and playing the top tier meta game - when our group encounters a bunch of enemies who seem “beatable” why wouldn’t they kill the enemies? Each of my players deals an average of 40 damage per turn - even when I scale up the encounter CR rating, my players still destroy most enemy groups.
I have to make the encounter “un-winnable” to deter them from a fight - which means they then feel railroaded by the game.
@@FamilyTableTop Allow them to engage, if they so desire, but provide consequences? An unseen scout witnesses the encounter, and reports back to the BBEG. An ally, or some innocent bystanders suffer for the heroes' lack of discretion. A named enemy survives (some how) and becomes a thorn in their side. Because they stopped for an unnecessary fight, the task ahead of them becomes more difficult, or even fails, as the world doesn't just "pause" for them, and time keeps moving forward.
Just some ideas. 😉
@@josephhahl1152 those are all great ideas. Thank you.
@@josephhahl1152 what game system do you like using to run your games?
@@FamilyTableTop D10 Storey Teller system (i.e Vampire: The Masquerade & Werewolf: The Apocalypse), but preferably the 2E version. Instead of D&D, I prefer Pathfinder (either 1E or 2E). And I really liked West Ends D6 Star Wars ttrpg.
Other games I rather enjoyed were Legend of the Five Rings, 7th Seas, ShadowRun, & Chiller.
I've seen some great suggestions in other comments already, like Shadowdark for example. And I am not sure if someone else suggested it already. But from my experience Mauseritter already is a faster game than D&D 5e and way more rules-light than that.
I'd say try it as is before you mix in other ingredients.
Or just try Knave on its own.
Don't get me wrong, you are totally allowed to do stuff like that. But it may overwhelm you when you try to hold the reins on mechanics from multiple different systems.
Getting to learn one new system is a challenge on its own. Don't make it harder on your own (and your players) by trying to learn 4+ games simultaneously.
Keep it simple, you want rules-light. Try one rules-light game, and see what you like and only add more rules when something's really missing.
I agree - I think we are going to start MausRitter as it is, and give that system some time before we begin altering.
Cain, Knave, ICRPG, Mausritter, D100, EZD6, Deathbringer RPG, Scarlet Heros, Dragonbane, and so many more.
Looking into Mythic GME, MUNE, etc can really help you as a DM as well.
What are those GM resources? Like tables or GM tutorials?
I had a lot of the same problems when it comes to 5e's combat. While I side-stepped a lot of the worry over the rules, that mostly comes from playing every earlier edition for.. well, decades. But 5e's combat became excruciating to play for my group. Banishments, bonus actions, polymorphs, several attacks and then abilities that trigger from other attacks and finally abilities that trigger from other people's abilities would mean our 8th level group could take a whole night to get through an encounter.
I ended up finally breaking free of the monotheism towards a 'brand'. There are so many games out there. My current favorites are Savage Worlds (Which has been amazingly fast in terms of combat), and PF2e (Namely when we want a crunchy, deeply character customizable ruleset). I wouldn't recommend PF2e for your group due to wanting a system that doesn't drown you in rules, but I would absolutely recommend Savage Worlds.
Some of my favorites right now:
Knave 2e - Shadowdark - Crown and Skull (amazing!) - Cairn
I absolutely love pbta games too: Dungeon World or Chasing Adventure - if you are interested in a pbta game but also want fantasy.
Powered by the Apocalypse is one of the simplest systems I have found - it’s great for teaching to young kids and new players.
What is Crown and Skull? I haven’t heard of that.
@@FamilyTableTop oooooooh boy! It's the new latest brainchild of Runehammer who made ICRPG and published games like 5e Hardcore, Viking Deathsquand, and Ezd6 (made by DM Scotty) ----- I absolutely love the book! Please look it up!
@@oettrpg I will look it up. Thank you for the suggestion.
Completely understand. B/X or Old school essentials. Never look back my friend. Also I might also shout out for DCC. Its so much fun to play.
You could also look into Castles & Crusades if you haven't. Their 7th printing pdf if free. You might like it. The SIEGE engine is easy to understand and it's meant for the CK to make rulings. It suggests that the only time you should be rolling is when there is a chance of failure. Its more of thay conversation between players and GM.
@@Enders1315 I like that.
I also like the modularity of C&C. If you like systems from other games or editions its pretty easy to add them. Gygax as involved with them for several years and thought much of the game was what he'd do with a third edition.
@@captainhrothgar4637 could you elaborate about the modular system?
@FamilyTableTop Sure, one example is their Seige system, as it handles skill use, as it's based on character level and attributes & you could replace it with another skill system, such as 3rd edition's or others as it's not tied into other systems, you can also steal parts of it for other games. Foe example. 1st edition D&D's saving throw system was based purely on a characters level and an extensive table of types of saving throws...one could blend the C&C usage of specific saving throws tied to a particular saving throw type and a particular attribute with the first edition table for more granularity...if desired. One could also easily add elements of 5th edition rulesthat one might prefer as C&C is still very d20 mechanic based. It's similar to 2nd edition but more streamlined.
Really great options you presented in the video many RPGs I love! Many other great reccs here in the comments of games I also love too! 5e aint all it's cracked up to be at all, welcome to the Folk RPG hobby!
@@mythicmountainsrpg thank you, my friend. It’s been great coming into TTRPGs and war gaming.
Runehammers ICRPG (index card rpg) is great it is similar to dnd, but much simpler and is effectively a tool box for the game master to make the kind of game you and your players want.
Give Mörk Borg and Pirate Borg a look. They're WEIRD with super simple combat and spells. Very atypical character classes. SUPER FUN!!!
Thanks for being honest about it all. I played Castles and Crusades for a long time (playing mostly Alien now). It is D&D like but it's fast and flexible. You only need 2 books (monster book and player book). The Players Handbook is available for download for free, so download and have a read.
Thank you. I have seen several people giving high regards for the Alien system. I will definitely check it out. It’s on my list.
Do you have current game group? What is your favorite system?
@@FamilyTableTop it depends on my mood for theme. I love the Year Zero Engine. Tales From The Loop, Vaesen, Alien and Forbidden Lands all use that. It is slick and easy to learn.
I am just starting on Symbaroum which seems really nice. The setting is brilliant.
@@FamilyTableTop Castles and Crusades is my go to for the D&D like experience.
@@obadiah_v Year Zero Engine? How does it work?
@@FamilyTableTop It's pretty simple. Your character has skills, attributes and equipment. Each of those has a number associated with it. Add those numbers up and the total is the number of D6 you roll. 6s are a success. There are slight variations between games designed using the system. This explains it all - ruclips.net/video/ETDu23LmEV8/видео.html
Shadowdark , Ezd6. Anything from Free League publishing , outgunned, mothership. Dcc, OSE Mork borg and its many variants. All of are quit fast. Welcome to the OSR/NuOSR family
Thank you - happy to be here. I think I’m coming home.
I think you all would like ezd6.
Very simple, fast, and creative. My family wanted to try a ttrpg and they loved it. Took about 5 minutes to explain it.
I have that one downloaded from DrivethroughRPG it’s next on my list to read.
I am a DnD fan, but I LOVE your take on DnD. I agree that the best part is outside of combat. I love the fantasy and aesthetic and concept of the combat, but you are absolutely right that the number of possible things and rules is more akin to a video game. What I think should be 5-10 mins encounter turns into 20-30 mins.
This! Exactly this.
I kept making encounters and thinking, “ok, this should take 20 minutes…”
2 Hours later…
At some point I’m not even upset at my players for being on their phones…
It feels like two different games. The narrative one and then the wargame one
How do you deal with the system? Are you homebrewing your game or have you started playing something else.
@@FamilyTableTop I just wrapped up a 3-year campaign going through Baldur's Gate: Decent Into Avernus, and we got up to level 17ish. At that point, we just accepted that one round of combat was going to be 20-30 mins (2-4hrs for a big fight, sometimes across two sessions), and I stopped doing smaller skirmishes altogether.
for smaller fights, I'd just run it more like a social interaction without rolling for individual initiative. I'd do things like, "The devil throws a mote of fire in your direction, but it hits the front of your vehicle. How do you respond?"
The players may say, "I cast Eldritch Blast" or "I run over him" and I would just narrate the results. Not every combative encounter has to be full-fledged combat. You can do combat-y things without making it a "real fight"
It's totally fair to be bogged down by dnd's rules. DnD, and the many games that inspired it, are heavily inspired by tactical wargames that require many rules. It's not for everyone! You sound like you have well researched the topic, and I wish you success in your future (OSR-inspired) rpg experience!
@@onesaltydoge3105 I have suspected that DnD has been influenced by table top war games - every time we get into combat the game feels like Marvel Crisis Protocol with occasional funny voices.
Welcome to being a grown up DM! You got there quickly. Totally agree with everything you talked about in the video. As a DM going on 40 years I have run a lot of games using a lot of systems. I find that your approach is the best. Go rules lite, but make sure the players understand some basic limits to work in and then YOU run the game and let them do what they want and just have them make checks (if you think they are needed) or allow them to proceed but maybe get them to roleplay a bit around their choice. Games will be much more fun for everyone and move faster. PLUS you won't burn out, which is always the worst feeling in gaming.
One word--Shadowdark. Problem solved. I've been playing DnD since 1979, I'm really taken with Shadowdark, which solves every problem I heard you describe. As an aside, Old School DnD was NOT like a video game, say pre-1995. I suggest you explore a genre of games called "Old School Renaissance or OSR." I could go on at great length about the OSR and how it's a reaction to many of the things you're talking about. I think you'll like what you find there.
@@langwaters9653 I just saw a video about Shadowdark yesterday. I’m going to order a book for the game.
What is your favorite OSR game system? Please go on at length… I am eager to learn.
@@FamilyTableTop OSR games are great, there's been lots of recommendations in the comments about different OSR systems (my personal favorite is Into the Odd, which Cairn is a hack of), but I think that the systems themselves are less important than the philosophy and style of gameplay. I recommend checking out the Principia Apocrypha, which is a free pdf that goes over how to play in the style, as well as the channel Questing Beast here on RUclips, who has tons of great videos about OSR advice and reviews!
The best one to get for getting into into is Swords & Wizardry. It is the best version of original D&D, super easiest to learn and use, super fast and exciting combat, easy rules and liberates the DM and you can download it for free. It also has loads of amazing content and you can run any OSR or TSR D&D adventure, campaigns and setting directly with it.
Most importantly the playstyle in TSR and OSR D&D is vastly different, google the Principia Apocrypha which explains how to start.
I use The D6 System to play my D&D games, but it's a build your setting, flesh it out type of book. So you have to do work to get your game ready. But the base mechanics are so fluid, so easy, skill based (not level based) and so adaptable. Been playing with the D6 System for over two decades now.
Is that similar to EZD6?
@@FamilyTableTop I haven't played EZD6, but what I have seen of EZD6 it has some rough similarities to the D6 System, but doesn't run exactly the same.
@@philhatfield2282 could you explain the D6 system?
@@FamilyTableTop The D6 System uses a number of D6 rolls equal to a character's attribute number plus skill number. The total rolled is compared to the difficulty number of the task being attempted. (5 is very easy, 10 is easy, 15 is moderate, 20 is difficult, 25 is very difficult, and 30+ is heroic. Roll equal or above the difficulty, the attempt is successful. Roll under the difficulty, the attempt fails.
You get one action every 5 second round, but if you want to do more than one action, you can, but you suffer a reduction in dice for each additional action you do (reduction applies to all all rolls that round, as you are rushing each action to attempt more things in 5 seconds.
That's the basics. You can use Wound levels for damage, or have Health Points. You can add or subtract skills, or add in specialized skills to grant additional dice when using the specialization. It's nicely adaptable, and the action is quick. (Roll to hit with weapon. If you hit, roll damage while target rolls to resist. If damage exceeds resist roll, target suffers damage. If resist roll is higher, no damage done.
If you liked 3.0, try Castles and Crusades. It's a stripped down faster playing version. You could also try Savage Worlds. Their Pathfinder version is really good and it moves quick. Both are good and not cobbled together. Honestly Savage Worlds is probably the best for what you're looking for.
I keep hearing about Savage Worlds. What sort of system is it? D20?
What do you like about it?
@@FamilyTableTop I GMed it for a couple of years and it offered more tools that were simpler but effective than D&D. More generic broad conditions for combat, so easier to remember. And you don't always feel the need to go to the battlemat whenever something happens.
The system changes die size to represent competency. And the target number is always 4 except when attacking in melee (which is their defence value, basically AC). Poorly skilled is D4 and master would be D12. Roll your dice and add modifiers if it's 4 or higher, a success. Sometimes if it's 8 or higher more effect (extra damage, etc) 12 even more and so on. Oh and the dice explode so you can get really crazy results but there are optional rules which keep things in check.
The magic system is points based but requires the players put in more work for detailing their spells, since there are only like 50-60 powers that you just flavor to your personal style. Savage Pathfinder does a good job of giving suggestions for building a lot of the D&D style spells.
Overall it is well balanced and plays quickly once the GM gets a hang of the tools. I personally really like the chase mechanics and downtime mechanics. Also the players get a lot of options to build out their characters but without the bloat of D&D.
@@FamilyTableTop Savage Worlds isn't a d20 game. You usually roll two dice, such as a d6 and whatever your skill is (e.g. d8) and use the highest individual result to get a success on 4+. The dice can also "explode", meaning if you roll the highest number on a die, you get to roll it again and add to the previously max'd one. Therefore, every additional 4 you get above the target number, it adds a bonus effect. That's the short version of it. Fun stuff and still has plenty character options so PCs aren't clones of each other.
5e is a big system and demands a lot of attention. Others have already suggested great systems and a few has even stated that rules light games have their own share of problems.
The thing i'd like to suggest is that you try on-shot type of games every now and then. Super fast and easy to understand and often goofy. A personal favorite of mine is Numbskull where you are skeletons raised to complete a task for a necromancer, the twist is that you cannot be seen as a skeleton so you have to walk around in disguises and not stand out. I know that this sounds complex, but here's how it works.
You have 3 stats, strength, charisma and magic. They each have a number of boxes ranges from 2-12 and number 7 and 8 are colored. Each player gets 5 points to distribute between the stats, and when putting a point into a stat it must be connected to a colored box. The system works like this. Players roll 2d6 and tries to roll a number within their success rate (the colored boxes) if they roll over they are super natural and gets attention, if they roll under they are super scary and people gets scared of them.
There are no combat in the game however, but it is super easy to come up with things on the spot due to the simple mechanics.
I hope that your mixed games is going to succeed! I have been trying to created my own ttrpg for years and have also looked at how i'd change other rules light games, which is much easier than a system line 5e so i see that as a huge strength for rules light systems.
Numbskull sounds like a very social game. I hadn’t heard of that one.
Do you have a favorite TTRPG? Do you play with a current game group?
@@FamilyTableTop I play 5e and a pokemon ttrpg called PTU which is way heavier than 5e if you use all of the rules which we don't. If i had to point out games that i think i could consider favorites of mine it would be these two.
Tiny Dungeon 2e: super simple system, roll 2d6 as a standard check and look for 5 and 6 on either dice, with advantage you roll 3d6 and disadvatage 1d6. To compensate for this simple mechanic you have traits, which are kinda like feats in 5e, that just makes you better at certain things.
EZD6: slightly more complex then Tiny Dungeon, but also shares a few similarities with it. It plays more like 5e with difficulty tasks and such, but uses d6s. One of the main draws for this game is its exploding dice mechanic (rolling a 6 lets you roll it again and again and again) and its karma system which is a meta currency that lets you add to your dice roll potentially creating exploding dice.
I haven't had the chance to try either sadly, but i am currently (to my knowledge) the only person in my groups that looks into other ttrpgs. And i hope to introduce my friends to these systems and more.
@@FamilyTableTop Numbskull is a social game where you are encouraged to apply cartoon logic. It was the first game i ever ran and the players laughed to high end. My personal favorite moment was when a player wanted to use a spell that drags an item towards him failed to cast it, he wanted a wand to fly to into his hand, but he rolled super scary, so i said that he certainly got a piece of wood in his hand, but on the other end of that was a very confused hyena.
Huh.. i wrote a reply before this one, but tha one seems to have been erased.. okay then.
My groups only play 5e and a pokemon game called PTU which is much heavier than 5e if you use all of the rules, which we don't. However if i was to choose some games that i think i could consider to be my favorites it would be these two.
Tiny Dungeon 2e: super simple reaolution system, you only need up to 3d6, there are no stats and a check is made rolling 2d6 and looking for either a 5 or a 6 on either dice, having advantage lets you roll 3d6 and disadvantage lats you roll 1d6, both you still look for a 5 or a 6.
This game also has traits (which are comparable to feats in 5e) that you use to bulk out your character.
EZD6: slightly more complex, but it leans heavier towards 5e. This system also uses d6'es and like Tiny Dungeon it doesn't use stats, or health for that matter, neither games do. Two of the main draws for me are the exploding dice mechanic and the karma system.
Exploding dice means that if you roll a 6 you get to roll again, if that is also a 6 you roll again and so on.
Karma is a meta currency you get when failing checks and can be used to increase your dice rolls, potentially making dice explode.
EZD6 also has classes and, like Tiny Dungeon, traits so the games does look similar in some way.
All gms will make their own games if they play enough sessions.
In fact, games like D&D aren't one game but a compilation of different rules. So it's only natural for a gm to make a game they want to play, with different sets of rules coming from different games.
I'd go a step further and say that DnD is not a game. It is a brand. They are making movies, if that brings money to the company
I played a little d&d back in.ad&d time frames but i became a DM during the 3e era. I never thought 3e and 3.5e were perfect but it was really the most fun i ever had. I feel like it was also the era where mass analysis of rules and choices were being made available in the Internet. And so things got more complicated with edition after edition trying to fix everything.
I found 5e mercifully streamlined in a few places but in the end i would start a new game in 3.5e anytime.
I agree that the d&d style, even back in 3e, encourages careful turns and perfect choices versus the old days when the rules left so much to be desired that you really just made a reasonable guess and moved on.
Yes, computer rpgs and mmos influenced this in some way.
Trying lots of game systems is fun... Enjoy it. Have fun. Im enjoying watching these videos about your journey.
@@SpaceShot do you still play DnD?
@@FamilyTableTop not regularly. The last few years I've had other family commitments. My daughter wants to learn more about it so it could be that passing RPGs on to the next generation could be my next path. I don't have a massive old book collection, but I did save my favorites so maybe they will make a comeback. Old friends have been chatting about trying to play by Zoom or something so that might be an opportunity to try Shadowdark or Blades in the Dark or some of the current indies. I actually watch more online actual plays to get a feel for how the modern scene is going.
Really appreciate your asking. Very kind to continue to conversation.
WOTC definitely has a video game mindset because that’s what they want the game to be. They add in so many rules for characters to give players endless options but this makes the game extremely hard for a DM to run and most players don’t know what they can do most of the time. And so what happens? WOTC has D&D beyond to control all this. Finally they will use AI to get rid of DMs and then it’s all subscriptions and in game purchases for players. It will then be a video game
@@rideordiegamesttrpg I think you are right about the AI DMs - such a dystopian concept.
Do you play in a regular game?
@@FamilyTableTop yes I have a regular game on my RUclips channel but we play old school D&D where we don’t have the rules glut to slow the game down. It’s lots of fun. We play Old School Essentials -Advanced Fantasy
The thing I love most about our hobby is our community. Lots of smart and kind people in our community! ❤🎲
So true.
B/X is what you seek!
Or it's most recent "reincarnation", Old School Essentials
@@MiguelAngelSanchezCogolludo Basic Fantasy RPG! As free as you can get! I'll grant you OSE's layout is a little better, though.
@@kaellizak3129yeah, with minor differences in power progresion, but highly compatible, specially at lower levels
Why are people keep recommending it?
Unpopular opinion: I read the whole rules book thinking its a rules light game. But hell no! Its clunky as hell with unintuitive mechanics.
I was going to recommend Cairn, and Blades in the Dark because those are my favorite to GM! You're way ahead of me.
I wouldn't run 5e as a GM but I enjoy playing it with a certain group of people. Here's why:
My character leaped from an Axe beak onto a boulder onto a wooly mammoth (all next to each other) and pressed dragon pepper paste into the Frost Giant's eyes who was riding the mammoth. My GM said, okay this is going to use up all your movement and actions, we'll roll acrobatics, then if you make it we'll roll a dexterity-based attack adding your proficiency from being a chef who makes pepper paste all the time. (My character is a Monk Pirate Chef and was making pepper paste moments ago.)
It's enough that we know the Monk's action economy is supercharged with little extra things (like a free unarmed strike, 40 feet of movement, Tabaxi climbing speed) that this is approximately what I can do and based on the GM's ruling I'm not going to try to weasel a bonus unarmed strike out of it and my GM is not going to check all the feats that exist to make sure I'm not trying to do something that someone made a feat for that I don't have.
@@noffpoppin do you have fun playing DnD 5E?
Only with this group, because we use items creatively and do things that aren't covered by the rules. Sometimes I use my character sheet as a menu, and sometimes I start with, "what would my character like to do in the fiction?" Then I tell the GM my intention, let the GM decide if a roll is required and which one, and accept the outcome. So I kind of mix both styles of play in my approach.
It is lame that the existence of "Reckless Attack" means I can't say, "I'm going to overextend myself, exposing myself to harsher consequences in order to increase the odds that my attack hits." Whenever the rulebook has a special feat or ability that costs something to acquire it actually limits play instead of expanding it because it implies that a character can't do it without the feat. That part I don't like.
I enjoy 5e the most with this group and up to about level 6.
@@noffpoppin I understand what you mean. I think playing DnD 5e with a unique group could be fun, but you have to be playing with people who aren’t simply using their character sheets to determine their choices.
Do you play other games with this same group?
@@FamilyTableTop I've been playing with the same group of people more or less for 7 years. I will not GM 5e or Pathfinder or anything related to 3e, but I have GM'd Into the Odd using the free module Tomb of the Serpent Kings - which you absolutely should run in Shadowdark. You can easily drop it into what you're doing now. I'm currently running Blades in the Dark which is my jam. Everyone gets "reckless attack" for every action at any time, trading position for effect. Brilliant. I love the flexibility.
As a player I've been in about four 5e campaigns with the group. One time we were facing an Angry Sorrowsworn monster. I had recently watched the movie Inside Out where the core message is that all the emotions are important and have something to teach us. My character, a Wizard and former professor, prepared to risk his life, approached the monster and gave it a hug saying, "thank you Anger, you are important, you have something to teach us." I convinced the other players to hold their attacks which was not easy.
Rules as written (and I had no idea) it says that if it is not attacked it gets disadvantage on attacks. If it is attacked it gets advantage. So the GM ruled that my hug was effective to neutralize the monster and send it away (which is not in the rules anywhere). I left it up to DM discretion if game mechanics are necessary and which ones. I was totally ready to accept my hug not working at all and would be willing to make a new character if killed.
I kind of wish there was more character death in 5e and tried to convince other players to adopt "death at zero HP". The other players would not go for it so I've taken this as an invitation to do things that feel intuitive and not optimized. So like your example of the Artificer using the Ten Foot Pole to clothesline an enemy. I'm doing stuff like that all the time [EDIT: I also do the overpowered things too, but I mix it up]. We're impossible to kill anyway. I'm the guy at the table asking to not have any more level ups please, because I know the game gets sloooooow at higher levels. Other players say, "yeah but we need to be stronger," and I say "If we're stronger, the monsters become stronger, which means we are the same level of strength but just taking longer turns."
Anyway, my #1 favorite way to play is just to describe what I do and the DM can tell me if there needs to be rules involved in it. I trust the DM more than the rulebook so I try to do things not covered in the rules. Video games already exist.
@@noffpoppin “Videogames already exist” - perfectly summarizes my feelings about DnD. Thank you.
Would you mind telling me more about what you like from blades in the dark? I have the book and it’s on my “I’ll get to it” list, but I am still in the process of learning Shadowdark.
Just go back to AD&D (1st ed). You'll find it's flexible enough to do whatever you want it to do.
Good summary, I have expereinced many of the same issues you explained.
Looks like you are going to enjoy OSR games. Shadowdark, Knave, cairn etc
@@felipemendoza5581 I’m going to finish out our last session and then give my players a choice: we can continue our Eberron campaign with entirely new rules and some significant character changes, or we try a whole new system and setting.
My preference would be for new system, I have been hearing really good things about Call of Cthulhu 7th, Savage Worlds and Shadowdark.
I really like the look and feel of MausRitter. That seems like a setting that could be filled with interesting elements.
if you don't like dnd's combat system, try 7th sea. You roll a bunch of "opportunity" dice to decide who goes first and basically you can do whatever you want. There's just a simple set of rules that decides how you will expend your dice for the things you're gonna do
@@mecchido that sounds unique. I’ll add 7th Sea to the list. Do you play/run any games currently?
Congratulations! You successfully made the first step to becoming a true TTRPG fan: Noticing that D&D 5e is trash.
I personally love Ishanekon: World Shapers. It is free, setting-independent, and has hundreds of character choices. It solves many of the problems you mention. Characters can die much more quickly, cinematic actions allow you to break the rules, rewarding creativity, and its huge variety of options and story potential keep it fresh. But I can see that you prefer to keep it simple. You should probably stick with your rules-light systems, which can also be great.
@@Luykosaurus I’ve never heard of that game. What in the setting/premise?
@@FamilyTableTop It has no specific setting and aims to be flexible like Fate and GURPS. It has a fun-over-realism approach and a philosophy of mechanics that strengthens roleplay and vice versa.
Its most noticeable attribute is the sheer amount of options it has to truly help you represent the character you have in your head. 10 Archetypes with 14 Sub-Archetypes each for a total of 140 Sub-Archetypes, over 900 Abilities, 500+ Talents, 300+ items/ upgrades, and more. It combines this number of features with a great filter system to not overwhelm newer players, including a beginner and core tag, complexity rating, and character roles.
All of it is 100% free on the website, which also includes tools like online character sheets, guides, and encounter calculators.
If he wants to step away from the fantasy genre, i recommend Kids on Bikes. Its still narrative driven but a loss dependent on everyone at the table being a DM.
Also Paranoia is a lot of fun for family night. Its a competitive TTRPG were your working towards a common goal, while trying to achieve your own objectives and screw over anyone that might take credit for your work. It's very board game like and has very fast combat and lots of death. I mean lots of death and maiming. A new edition just came out which is amazingly good.
You should look into Cypher System from Monte Cook Games.
@@Slaughterhouse_Floor I will. What makes it unique? How does it play?
Monty Cook was the lead designer and creator of D&D 3.0 then he left and created his own gaming company. Cypher System is a far different game system than 5th Ed D&D. It's more of a narrative game. It's more of a collaboration between players and game master. Very rules light and adaptable.
@@Slaughterhouse_Floor that sounds fun. I will look up his games.
@@FamilyTableTop one of the big things about Cypher is that the game itself tells you to bullshit your way around how the characters' powers are described. Most of the GM work is to determine how many resources a player should spend to use a power in an unusual way.
For example, can you use a long range blast effect (like a Magic Missile) as a short range area blast (similar to a shotgun)?
Sure, but the difficulty/cost increase by X.
On the other hand, one of the best feature of Cypher is that opponents are just a number, a difficulty level between 1 and 10, which establish almost everything about them, from how hard they hit to how difficult it is to swindle them. I say alsmot, because pretty much every opponent has some slight change (like golem might have +1 to melee attacks or -2 to any action that requires agility).
Try 2nd edition! With house rules of course. I played a lot back in the 90s and wanted to get back in as a DM for old friends. After listening to a lot of 5e and some old school I was amazed at the difference and decided against 5e. I agree with you 100%. I was amazed to see that roleplaying could be dictated by dice rolls, what? And because players have so many codified combat abilities, it could be quite redundant because one of the set was just better than others. So I thought go back to what you know and loved. After diving back into the 2nd edition books I realized we ignored a lot of rules or played optional rules and it worked fine. There is so much amazing content by some of the best writers from that era. You don't even have to use thaco if it's too confusing, though it is not as strange as people make it out to be. I've incorporated movement rules, bonus action, reaction and some other elements that I like from 5e, but a single sheet of large type house rules has made it work great for us. It leaves combat open for player creativity and the DM to be the judge and there is very little rule bickering. The beauty of it is, if we want to add or change a rule and agree on it great. I'm also a relatively inexperienced DM jumping back into the game after many years, but I'm excited to dive into the insanely rich world of 2nd edition content that is out there.
When is your game starting?
@@FamilyTableTopI've probably run a dozen or so sessions now. We've gone from a couple of players to around 8 of the old gang, it's been a blast. I wanted to get my feet under me by starting at lv 3 in what I considered to be a starting area, but I am now building into a full homebrew campaign. I told my players they could play any type of character they could imagine and any crazy setting but they all voted for Forgotten Realms.I recently read Slaying the Dragon, highly recommend! It brought back a lot of memories of the excellent 2e materials. There are so many cool adventures, monsters, spells, in the old dungeon magazines. Ed Greenwood is still putting out great FR lore on his channel. For Gold and Glory is a good reorganization of the 2e phb. I love Tome of Magic, books like Drow of the Undrerdark, the Ravenloft books, Darksun, the list goes on and on. Wizards/Hasbro/TSR have made so many millions off of Ed Greenwood's imagination and paid him $4000 for the FR ip. I'd be happy to share any of my insights, house rules etc. if you end up giving 2e a try.
@@beryll1638 for the moment, I think I am going to give ShadowDark a try… I think a few of my players are struggling with D&Ds system learning. A few of them have learned the TTwargame system but not the TTrpg system.
The wargame system of DnD teaches players to interact with stats and numbers - never characters.
I think my players need to die lots or something. They need numberless character sheets maybe.. I’m thinking of having a Follow game just to get them playing pretend.
I would love to hear your insights about DMing. I might not be playing the same system as you, but I’m sure some of your wisdom would still transfer.
…oh, here’s a question: how do you teach your players to trust you as a DM? To see you as a cooperator, not an opponent?
@@FamilyTableTop I find this whole topic so interesting and 100% get where you're coming from. There are so many interesting dynamics in the ttrpg space and history and it's always in flux. So much falls on the GM. I knew that if I didn't run the game it wouldn't happen, it takes a lot more time on the GM side. The best advice I took from people I was trying to learn from such as Dungeon Dudes was session 0, agree on the type of game you want. I took a very open approach, what type of game do you want, I'll let you create whatever kind of character you want etc. We play if you are reduced to or below 0 you go to 0 and lose one point per round and are dead at negative 10. This is very forgiving and a character is only likely to die if multiple party members go down or there is tpk. Even though ad&d was designed to be a very deadly system most people want to Play and develop a character long term. They definitely dislike going unconscious, it's like being put in the penalty box. It's been fascinating reading about the early days of the game with it's origins in wargaming when every unit was expendable. The innovation that was d&d was roleplaying and acting out a character that was persistent. But even then, the attitude was multiple characters, if one dies replace it. This is a spectrum and your table needs to agree on where they fall on it. I think the trust is built along the way. If your group wants a challenge that will test them to death, the encounters should take them to that edge. If they want a challenge but one with less risk of character death, you still need them to feel like it's a possibility. I just try to be as transparent as I can be without giving away secrets and make rulings with an explanation of why this makes sense. One practical problem with character death is if someone dies early in the session, what do they do just work on their new character while everyone else plays? I do think balancing the encounter on the fly is often necessary. It's hard as a GM to know what your players will be capable of. I think part of the art is sleight of hand knowing what to reveal and what to keep secret. If the players are having fun, you will have their trust I think.
If your looking for something 5e adjacent look into OSR old school renaissance. Shadow Dark. Etc. Professor DM on the Dungeon Craft channel does a lot of videos on them.
We just finished playing our gauntlet in Shadowdark! It was awesome - a little stressful for me, but it was really fun.
Welcome to D&D, every version, combat takes forever!
My favorite TTRPG's and Systems: 1-Cypher(generic), 2-Teenagers From Outer Space(anime), 3-Gamma World 4E(not based on D&D 4E)(post apocalyptic), 4-All Flesh Must be Eaten(zombie), 5-Battlelords of the 23rd Century(sci-fi), 6-Pathfinder 1E(fantasy), 7-5E(fantasy), 8-Palladium system(generic), 9-AD&D(fantasy), 10-Shadow of the Demon Lord(sci-fantasy/horror) and 11-Star Frontiers(sci-fi)
If you haven't you might want to take a look at Dragonbane it is very old school feeling and tends to be a much faster combat round (player facing rules).
@@GeekChefFood I’ve gotten a few recommendations for Dragonbane. I will add it to the list. Thank you for the suggestion.
It will seem familiar. They have a skill check system
It’s also deadly and big bonus is the set is on sale right now on pdf for only 4.99 on drivethrurpg.
RUclips recommended to me this video because I like watching stories about DnD (and similar games) although I've never actually played any of these games. Just figured I'd make a game suggestion since you mentioned 'Mausritter' (which I haven't heard of), and that's Mouse Guard. It's a sort of game where everybody simultaneously participates in 'conflicts' in some manner so, instead of each player waiting for their turn, it's all of the player's turn against whatever the DM has conflicting them. I say 'conflict' because the game uses the same system for resolving everything from combat to a baking contest to trying to convince a stubborn mayor of one town to provide the Guard with something after said mayor believes the Guard has slighted them in some way.
The game also has a big focus of 'failing forward' where the mice will pretty much succeed in whatever they are attempting to do, but if they fail on their rolls that can cause the story to change via a twist or the mouse attempting to do the action might get a condition such as injuries or illness. An example of 'success with a twist' would be trying to retrieve a stolen mail bag from a crow. The game master can decide if they fail then an important person who they were trying to deliver a letter to on time has gotten impatient and gone off on a very dangerous task on their own, which the letter could have perhaps prevented them from doing.
Again, I don't actually play these games, but when you were talking about your players being disengaged from the game when it wasn't their turn during combat all I could think was... maybe you need a game where every player is engaged with combat (or baking competitions) at the same time. The thing is... Mouse Guard seems to work well with 3-4 player characters, having 7 player characters all in one group might be kind've overdoing it. The one time I saw a game played with that many players the sessions were broken into group A and group B, where usually one group would be in the east and the other in the west, but depending on circumstances events in one group's game could affect the other. I somehow doubt you'd want to be breaking up your group into two different play sessions.
@@Zulban48 what a great suggestion. Thank you.
You might be right, Mouse Guard might not be right for our Saturday night game with 7 people - but the game you describe might be exactly what we need to teach our young son Riker how to play a game.
Thank you so much for the recommendation, I will look up Mouse Guard.
What Table Top RPG do you play usually?
@@FamilyTableTop I actually don't play myself, I've just seen stories on youtube about people's various games (Puffin Forest, as an example). There have been occasions where my friends group has tried to get into a game but every time something seems to come up. Warhammer 40k: Black Crusade? The DM had run about 5 sessions or so before I joined, then immediately after I did he quit his job to start running his own farm and was too busy to play anymore. Battletech RPG? We had everything planned out, and then on the week of our first session I had to travel to another state in preparation for moving and then interest faded among the group. For a while it seems the group had been running a Rocket Age game but I wasn't involved in that.
@@Zulban48 I’m sorry to hear that you have not been able to play. That must be frustrating.
Do you play other games? Board games or wargames?
@@FamilyTableTop Typically I stick to video games, heh. Regular board games are (usually) competetive in nature and I'm not much of a competetive person, I was never interested in sports or similar things. I didn't hear about the kinds of tabletop stuff that they have out until all my friends had become remote. I do know some of them are really into board games and one of them was telling me about GenCon that they recently attended. There was also a video about someone that essentially ran a homebrew cooperative board game with nearly 200 players each controlling their own platoon or all coordinating with each other and that kind of thing sounds fun, unfortunately they haven't uploaded any follow-up to that.
So, for now, I'll stick with listening to other's stories about them. Sometime the right group might come along, but I'm not actively looking. I don't worry too much about it, but thanks for asking.
My monster combination of ttrpg's are:
D100 Dungeon
Mapping game, SHADOWDARK &
SCARLET HEROES.
The to hit system in
D100 DUNGEON combined with the Character sheet of Shadowdark.
Scarlet Heroes just has good tables and a great
Oracle system.
Can you explain what the D100 system is and what the Scarlet Heroes is?
Interesting concepts. I can totally see your view point. One thing that has helped me with my kids is the 'GM Guide' (for not remembering the chapter title) in Amazing Tales TTRPG.
I do believe the quick start is free.
Basically it goes with allowing the characters more control of the consequences.
But, as a DM I do know how frustrating that concept can be when running a module vs. a homebrew campaign.
It is more work, but you could always have another module or two ready as reactions to your prayers "Killing" the one currently on. Then can always come back as someone/thing fixed the plot point to go back to that original adventure.
It shouldnt take two hours to have a combat with a handful of enemies. 5E is bloated.
Feng Shui: Action Movie Roleplaying, P. E. R. K., MasterBook, GURPS, there's tons of other systems out there. In addition, as a DM I have the prerogative to not use rules that don't make sense or slow things down.
@@LaithMelias I haven’t heard of most of those… some people have mentioned GURPS, but the rest I am unfamiliar with.
What is your favorite system to play in?
Do you have an ongoing game right now?
@@FamilyTableTop Right now I'm running a sandbox 3.5e D&D for my kid, but my friends and I played Feng Shui for almost two years straight. If you've seen Big Trouble in Little China, that's Feng Shui basically. The Pretty Easy Roleplay Kit, or PERK has similar dice rolls. I'm prepping an Urban Horror game based around the SCP wiki using PERK.
@@FamilyTableTop I would advise Savage Worlds over GURPS. There is less rules overhead. The easy route from D&D to Savage Worlds is Savage Pathfinder or the core rules and Sundered Skies.
@@Octarinewolf is savage Pathfinder a merging of Pathfinder and Savage Worlds? Or is it some alternate Pathfinder setting?
Of course you're bored with 5e, you're playing it by the book. Whats been key to keeping interest, for me going into my 7th year of playing/DMing, is learning the skeleton of rules adjudication, and applying it to streamline the processes, and keeping your homebrew simple but fun. Dont be afraid to change shit that doesn't make sense. The first page of the dungeon masters guide says that everything is ultimately up to the dungeon master. Cut shit out, add shit in, its all good.
As a GM for over two decades, even though what you are saying is true, 5e is one of the worst skeletons to build on as a good GM. It doesnt include ANYTHING as a reference I couldnt have thought up (and thought up better) without any prep or warning. The advantage dice for example. If you never imagined allowing a double roll to take the highest just off the top of your head in 10 years as a game master, you probably need some help. Their are like 10 different dice mechanics I use in my games that are similar to a d20 system that nobody had to tell me about. I want a book Im spending over 50 on to give me ideas I cant just pull out of my ass.
@@jaednhowlar2359 that's precisely my point! If you don't like it, cut it. If you got something better, add it. Advantage is a pretty basic example, but if you decide that it's better they get a +5, or a +10 because of how someone chooses to interact with a check, that's all good in the 5e rules too, because you're the god damned GM and you say it is so. This is supported with other rules, such as half and 3/4 cover, and makes more sense to me, rather than having an extra chance.
Personally I like the 'fate' mechanic that High Rollers have been using in their Althea campaign. An extra pool of d6s that you can use to influence events and make a devils bargain.
I guess what I'm saying is that no rules system is exhaustive, and that as a GM, sometimes you need to be willing in the moment to throw the rules out completely, in favour of something more fun or interesting, but by the same token, those sitting at your table all need to roughly know the rules, and 5e is what i've found to have the best 'skeleton' for adjudication: roll a d20, add modifiers. Anyone can pick it up, and you can layer it with as much complexity as you want. Flavour it however you want.
@@razzlebazzle420 no. its not your point. My point is 5E is not worth buying because it has pedestrian rpg ideas that nobody with enough skill to gamemaster effectively should need to spend money on to access. I dont need a set of 100+ dollar books to tell me it's deepest idea on poison is that it gives disadvantage. I want to pay for fresh ideas or ideas too complex for me to make up on the spot. The entire rule system of 5e is stuff I could come up with on the spot, or things that have been flogged to death over 30+ years of gaming. The only people who have an excuse to be impressed with anything 5E has are total noobs who ironically will fail miserably at being able to gamemaster such a badly written system, and they do fail miserably. I have seen what passes for a game of D and D nowadays and it is pathetic.
@@jaednhowlar2359 did your 20 years as a gm grant you telepathy? It's obvious you aren't the target demographic, don't waste your money. Look, I'm a chef, I don't buy ready meals. I get your point, but do you think anyone has really benefitted from what you've said here? Other than 'with 20 years experience, you won't need rulebooks'. I rarely use recipes, because I have experience, but it doesn't help the trainee watching me make a dish, if I'm pulling it out my ass.
The vid was about becoming bored with 5e, and my comment was simply advice for taking what he has clearly ALREADY spent money on, and time learning the rules, to have some fun on family games night. The skeleton that exists is perfectly adequate for someone that can be even the slightest bit creative. Maybe in another 12 years I'll feel the same as you but currently, I really enjoy 5e. I buy the books, because they are handy for reference material, and I prefer a hardcopy, but if you're miserly, there is still 5etools. Everything is there, every rule, every monster, every magic item, every random table. The price of the books isn't really a criticism of the system itself.
@@razzlebazzle420 your comment still reeks of "Only 5th edition exists, do anything possible to make sure you use 5th edition for your roleplaying". No thanks. WoTC is going to rot the hobby from the inside and shouldn't be supported in any way.
Brother, the fact that you get your whole family together to play even once a week is fantastic! There are literally thousands of games out there to try. Take your time and just enjoy the time with your family.
Thank you. I really appreciate your encouragement.
Do you play in a current game?
@FamilyTableTop I am a forever gm. I haven't gotten to actually play in a game for years, but I've run quite a few. I'm running a Star Wars game right now. I like the fact that you are taking pieces of the games that you like and creating one just for your family. That is a real Dad thing to do!
@@shonlewis8336 thank you. Do you have kids?
Could you tell me a little about the Star Wars game? What do you like about it?
@FamilyTableTop 6 Kids, all grown now, and 2 who still play ttrpgs. I wa asked to NOT run DnD 5e by my group, so they chose Star Wars. The best part about it is that eventhough the characters have professions and specialties, you can try anything. The dice system leaves most story related things to me to interpret, but I happen to like it. It's a fail-forward system.
@@shonlewis8336 that sounds awesome.
What do you mean by fail forward? Is that like in Power by the Apocalypse where you have “success /failures”?
Sandbox games are what you are looking for. A map, with several points of interest, lots of hooks, and no central plot. The players decide what their character wants to do, which is what the game is about. Keep those dice rolling!
I’m just learning about this type of game - that’s exactly right. Do you have recommendations - creators, books or game systems that play well?
@@FamilyTableTop Most OSR games run just fine in this style of game: Knave, Swords and Wizardry, Basic Fantasy, etc. You can use almost any game in a Sandbox Style, but OSR games would fit on what you want from the game. My favorite game is Savage Worlds but I do love OSR games.
Thank you! I haven’t looked into Savage Worlds. I check that one out.
@@FamilyTableTop The sandbox is less about the system and more about the adventure design. The Waking of Willowby Hall by Ben Milton (the designer of Knave) is hands-down the best one-shot design I've seen. I've run it with 3 different groups so far, and each time, the players approached it completely differently, and each time was an absolute blast.
Tenfootpole's blog has lots of adventure reviews... his tone can be kind ornery, but he has high standards to help weed out the best from the worst. Good luck in your path to reigniting a love for ttrpgs!
@@wushubear1 thank you for the recommendation - I’ll check out tenfootpole to get some ideas.
The game I recommend at every opportunity is Troika, which is based on the system from a series of choose-your-own adventure books from the 80s.
Incredibly simple, with three main stats (Skill, Stamina and Luck), played entirely with a couple of D6s, rules-lite, and the published material is set in a whimsical space-fantasy setting, which I've heard described as Studio Ghibli-esque.
@@arfived4 Awesoem. I will look this up.
Do you think it’s something easy enough for a younger child to play?
@@FamilyTableTop The game books were aimed at children, so I would say so.
The rolls are "2d6, roll equal or under" against your Skill for solo rolls, and "2d6, add your Skill and beat the other guy" for opposed rolls.
Character creation is rolling D66 (one D6 as 10s, the other as units) against a table, and getting a basic class.
Each class has Advanced Skills, which add a bonus to your Skill score if you use them, but that's basic arithmetic. There aren't really levels or many special abilities to worry about.
Some of the weapons have a table that tell you the amount of damage they do, but they're just inside the front cover, as are the page numbers for the spells.
The whole thing is in a single 100 page A5 book.
@@arfived4 That sounds great! Thank you for the recommendation.
Mausritter is great! =)
Lookup the system called Dread. It uses a Jenga set instead of dice. You get all the narrative of an rpg, and actions and combat are blazing fast
I saw a video about that - a group of people playing Jenga and whoever topples the tower dies. Seems like a simple system.
Have you played a game of Dread?
You lasted a whole year playing 5e? Play 1st edition if you're in a nostalgic mood but play 2nd edition if you want a great time!
SWADE does that job better imo, it's actually pulp like. Doesn't even use HP