@@rgh622 better keep an eye on trans oil level often. I did take two 3k trips this summer, reading other posts on this issue people think it happens on long rides. Harley Davidson needs to install a trans dipstick that requires no tools to make checking this easily like the engine oil.
@vtec947 the engine doesn't breathe through the driveline. The primary is difficult to vent because when the engine is running, oil is flying *everywhere* in there, so venting it through the mainshaft was the best way without blowing a bunch of oil out of the vent path.
Thanks for the video and I have one correction for you. This is not a “rare” problem! My 19 RGS did it from brand new and two of my buddies touring bikes now have vent kits installed.....so far from rare. My biggest question is....what damage has been done to my trans since it ran 12 OZ low on two occasions (in the trans) for hundreds of miles which definitely affected the ride ability of my bike. The shifting became very “clunky” due to the low oil level and the clutch didn’t perform correctly due to the primary being overfilled. As a consumer.....Harley should be extending the warranty on these power train parts for a minimum of five years total so customers have piece of mind due to Harley’s engineering mistake.
Mine went low between the 0 and 1000 miles and again between 1000 and 5000 then between 5000 and 9000 when I realized there was an issue. Trans shifts fine, no weird noises and no metal on the plug but I wonder if some microscopic damage was done.
I've experienced the same thing. I called Harley customer support and they said that they never heard of this issue. I got a friend riding a 2005 BMW that the factory replaced his fuel pump FREE. Come Harley Davidson.
But long story short no actual problem. Unless all the oil goes away it does no harm. If changed on schedule you would not even notice the difference. Same oil in both holes.
I was at my local dealership a few days ago (12-13-19) and there was a guy at the service counter (I was next to him at parts buying oil change related stuff) complaining that he has to add oil to his transmission on his new 2020 street glide after he travels to see his daughter (all interstate ride 70+ mph one hour there and 1 hour back he said). He said riding below 70 mph oil doesn't disappear---- said he was really concerned and couldn't figure out what was happening. The service guy told him he had never heard of that issue before and that he probably just wasn't filling it properly. I couldn't do anything but SMDH. I've been reading about this issue on Harley tech talk forum for years and here it is 4 model years later and still happening (even with the primary vent apparently). I have worked in manufacturing for the last 35 years and can honestly say there is zero excuse for this type of "ongoing" design flaw on a product ---- especially one that costs this much. This issue alone is the reason I will keep my twin cam touring bike into retirement instead of buying the new HD I was planning to (Currently at 43k miles with only repair being a new brake light switch). I didn't have the heart to go outside and tell the dude he had an issue that HD has let fester since the MW8 first come out in 2017 and he should pop off his derby cover to let his primary get back down to the proper level. HD ENGINEERING MANAGER --- YOU SHOULD HIRE A GOOD ENGINEERING CONSULTANT TO FIGURE OUT THIS ISSUE FOR YOU AS APPARENTLY YOU GUYS LACK THE ENGINEERING TALENT OR HAVE SUCH A LACK OF ENGINEERING LEADERSHIP THAT YOU ARE COMPLETELY UNABLE TO FIX THIS ISSUE PROPERLY. THERE IS NO SHAME IN ADMITTING THAT YOU ARE IN OVER YOUR HEAD SOMETIMES AND NEED SOME HELP. THE SHAME IS IN SELLING PEOPLE $30K+ TOURING MOTORCYCLES THAT THEY CANT TOUR ON WITHOUT THE RISK OF RUNNING THEIR TRANSMISSION DRY. THE MANUFACTURER I WORK FOR HAS BROUGHT IN CONSULTING FIRMS NUMEROUS TIMES OVER THE YEARS TO SOLVE TOUGH PROBLEMS SO I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE. ITS WAYYYYY PAST TIME TO FIX THIS ISSUE
I am one of the “lucky” few who has experienced the oil transfer issue. Took a 2800 mile trip and 11 oz. of oil transferred from the tranny to the primary. I have since fixed my issue but find it very discerning that Harley claims it tests its engine design thoroughly before release, yet this issue has been around now for multiple years. Thanks Doc,well explained.
I'm right there with you. Why couldn't it have been the Mega Millions jackpot? I loaned a friend my bike 2017 FLHTP (7000 miles) to make a 300 mile round trip. When he returned I could hear a noise when I took off for work. I turned around after 1/4 mile. That evening I took it to a local shop as scheduled but not because of the noise. I have stock pipes so I could hear better. Against my suggestion they dive into the primary. Nothing visibly wrong. My suggestion was to drain each compartment individually and look for metal. After nothing in the primary they tried to drain the tranny that had very little oil. We're going to complete the scheduled oil change and pray the noise is gone. if Harley knew this was a problem, the least they could've done was give the customer a heads up to watch your tranny more often due bro blah blah. I called Harley about a recall or knowledge of any instances of my situation and they said that they didn't know anything about this problem. My bike is 2017 bough new (7 miles)t in 2019. I ride year round 50 miles a week work and home. Go figure.
It happens to ALMOST all of them. It's cheaper just to buy the kit, do it yourself. Than to play tag, at the dealership. Sad part is, bikes with the vent, can still do it. Install the bigger clutch rod. This issue is completely unacceptable. 3 times to address it. Let me tell you something, on a new bike, if you're losing ANY transmission fulid, you got problems. I've owned new bikes for decades, this has NEVER been an issue on any of them, period. Till I bought an M8, did a 5k transmission service & never even looked at it. Zero issues.
SHOULD BE FIXED AT FIRST SIGN.... HD needs better engineers and testing...sad they install it on 2020 models..yet earlier models they say check it 3 times..that is pure BS..if their is signs then fix it..bs 3 check rule..
Hi Doc, Great explanation!! I am one of the “lucky” few, 2019 Road Glide Special. Vent kit installed at 5000 mile service. My theory is the type/frequency of riding is why some bikes see the issue and others do not. I ride to work daily, 63 miles each way, about 60 minutes of travel time highway/80 minutes backroads. If the clutch rod tolerance is too loose the “churning/blending” will cause the transfer and the longer/harder you ride the more chance the issue will show up.
Oil transfer happening on only a few touring models sure does seem like a larger problem when the few includes mine. Had the primary vent installed and it's been good ever since.
Jeff Johnson Definitely not rare in my opinion when you can go literally anywhere on the Internet and come up with hundreds of people having these issues
Yeah mine transferred like 2-4oz every 600-800 miles basically 2 - 3 gas tanks... i actually ordered the vent kit from Europe and installed myself when my dealer hadn’t “heard” about this issue haha
Doc, this may have been rare a year ago, its well known now. My RK does it and most every bike with a Hydraulic clutch does it. HD needs to recall this and fess up. My dealer wants to charge me 71.00 plus oil for tyranny and chaincase oil change to start out a 1k mile measurement. This is just plain wrong.
I am experiencing this problem on my 2018 FLHTK. I have my own theory from my personal experiences. I have been doing my own servicing on my Harleys for over 20 years and am a retired auto/heavy equipment mechanic. What I have experienced is that my 2018 M8 will not transfer trans oil to the primary when just riding casual rides. Only when riding long distances at highway speeds in hot weather, do I experience oil transfer in sufficient amount to be concerned. Every year I take 2 vacations with my wife and actually tour with my M8, this is when I experience transfer. Long days riding interstate highways, racking up the miles for hours at high RPMs. Usually in late July and August when temps exceed 80 degrees. This may be the reason it is showing up to be a rare problem and why it is only affecting Touring models. We know most riders are going out for a weekend ride in the country on back roads enjoying the scenery and a casual ride. I think this type of ride negates the problem. I would like to get the warranty but do not want to go through the process of 3 dealer oil changes and the miles back and forth to my dealer. Also I would have to recreate the issue by touring long distances between all 3 oil changes. This will be expensive undertaking. I've seen many different remedies for this problem and many reviews saying they don't work. I know this was 4 years ago, but has HD come to a final conclusion? Also, I appreciate every video you put up and wish I was close to your dealership to have you service my Harleys! Keep up the good work!!
WD thanks for your post with facts. Sadly yo say any models with transfer issues are no longer addressed by the Factory. The “kits” are still available. It is my understanding HD has accepted their “fix” and has incorporated this in all touring models. Purchase the Kit and outer primary cover gasket, fluid and install it your self with your ability. ….Doc
I appreciate the video but there are a lot more affected bikes than you are alluding too. It’s a fairly big issue. I’m glad there is an apparent fix now. Harley now installs this vent on the 2020s from the factory so they are aware of the magnitude of the issue.
Awesome video I have a 2019 street glide that had this issue. It was a little upsetting having a brand new bike that would almost drain the transmission in a 1000 miles. Needs to say the dealer documented the issue. Then had me drive it around for 500 miles and rechecked. They did the update kit and so far I had zero issues with fluid transfer. The bike now has over 5000 trouble free miles.
Hey Doc, why are the motorscastings so different on the M8s between the Touring bikes and Softails? None of these problems have occured on the Softails. I would bet that the differenses in castings has something to do with it.
Scott Peters it’s not the castings....the softail has a cable clutch and different clutch rod than the touring which is hydraulic. The clutch rods in the touring are too small allowing the transfer.
My 2017 FLTRU had the issue. Dealer put in the Primary Vent kit and it it helped with "short trips" but didn't solve the issue for long trips. (I was right at 5oz in 5k - annoying). Dealer recommended, and I tried, the "Greg Williams" oversize clutch rod. Turns out after I ordered it, that the previous owner had already installed the Greg Williams oversized rod - so I contacted Macomb County Choppers and advised them I already had one installed - but still had transfer. "Greg" contacted me directly and said "harley had two diameters in the M8 clutch rod "center shaft openings", and after some q&a "Greg" decided I should try his "slightly even larger" oversize rod (he apparenetly offers two sizes of oversized clutch rods). He sent the slightly larger version of the oversize clutch rod - thank you - and I installed it. It moves freely back and forth with very little side to side movement. So far seems great.
That was informative Doc. I own. 2019 Ultra Limited and as luck would have it, I had the oil transfer problem and venting kit was put on my bike. This in my opinion could be considered a Mickey Mouse way to fix the problem. I recently learned that a Greg Williams designed new push rod is available with a larger diameter and a flat side. Fixed in ten minutes by the owner and problem solved. Look I love my bike but Harley could have stepped up a hell of a lot better.
I own a 2018 Ultra Limited with 22,400 miles on it and recently have this oil transfer issue. All services are done at the dealership and have some fellow riders that experience this issue within the first 10,000 miles. I use the Harley Davidson 80/140 synthetic oil in the transmission. While I was riding I noticed that the transmission was not shifting as smoothly as normal and while letting of the throttle I would have a noticeable transmission whine. After getting home I could smell hot oil and put the motorcycle on my dolly and checked the transmission level. I’ll was barely on the dipstick so I called the dealership and they picked it up. They drained the transmission and discovered that there was only 17 ounces left in the transmission. Now I am waiting on Harley-Davidson to give the ok to dismantle and inspect the transmission on the condition of the bearings.
@5:40 shows transmission spacer and seal off a 5-speed transmission pulley spacer redesigned in 1994 having more surface contact to support the drive pulley and prevent a different issue H-D was dealing with @the time. That seal on a H-D would NOT prevent oil from entering the primary. that seal failure would result in a puddle on the ground. Oil can ONLY enter the Primary from Transmission through the center of Mainshaft, as you have stated, and the Main Engine Case Seal. I have seen Primary's pour several ounces out thru derby cover and the trans dipstick dry, convincing me the issue lies there. easily 8-12 oz of oil. I've also seen the EXACT same thing on a VENTED 'Band-aid' Primary...Unless the 'WIZZ-BANG 'Tech that performed the Vent Update failed to adjust the Trans fluid. That's Definitely a Possibility... I Honestly Believe the Trans Vent due to it's location, possibly doesn't allow proper venting due to the 'Blender' Affect? H-D was most likely hoping this issue would go away like a Bad Fart...getting lost with all the other nonsense going on in today's world...Great Video's Doc Thanks!!!
I was torn between a 2024 RG and a low mileage 2019 CVO RG at the same price. Decided on the CVO only to find I have the transfer issue when I changed the fluids yesterday. Probably only 15 ounces came out of the transmission and way too much came out of the primary. Talk about buyer’s remorse.
I have a 2019 Sport Glide (M8) with no mods to the engine. Have had my 3rd service done and over 12,000 miles on it in 9 mos. Zero issues with transfer. Absolutely love the bike and she's my main transportation.
What crazy designs Harley-Davidson comes up with. Talk about an old fashioned load of crap. My Yamaha cruiser is now 16 years old. It has never broken down on me and all I do is have it serviced at the proper intervals. It has NEVER had any oil problems like Harley-Davidson motorcycles have.
I have a 2014 SGS. Love my bike. But, what HD is doing in handling this, is plain disgraceful. Now, HD wants the customer $'s to correct their problem. And with a paper template! Disgraceful.
Thank you Doc Harley! I’ve got a 2019 Street Glide on which I perform a 3-hole fluid change, religiously, every 5,000 miles. Because of a minor oil leak, that I determined was from the oil in my reusable air filter, I dropped the oil from my transmission into my oil pan. I poured the transmission gear oil into my quart measuring cup that I use for oil changes and I had 18 oz. At the last oil change, about 3,500 miles prior, exactly 28 oz. has been put into the transmission. Thus, 10 oz. had ended up in my primary. What are your thoughts? For the record, I’ve been a long-time (40 year plus) DIY mechanic who has pulled and installed car engines, replaced drive shafts, rebuilt many carburetors, starters and alternators, completed brake jobs including rebuilding wheel cylinders and machining drums and rotors, etc. I’m not even close to being a mechanic, but I’m much more knowledgeable and skilled than the average bike owner.
I would remove the trans side cover and see if your model had the Slinger installed. If not, reassemble and install the primary breather kit. If it does have the slinger, remove, reassemble and install the Primary breather kit.....Doc
ruclips.net/video/QolhZGpFULQ/видео.html this is a better video on the oil transfer issue on Big Twin, mostly on the touring models, from the transmission to the primary and the fix/remedy.
You should do it to all the Milwaukee eight this is a total rip-off $300 for an oil change three times so you can document it just make it a recall and fix it already at the very least these three oil changes should be free next time I'm buying an Indian
U know what's funny...i read a bunch of comments n quite a few of u had this migration issue..including myself ...n doc says it's a rare occurrence..no comment from the master yet?? .hmmm😳
Knowing I will be getting flamed for this....its 2 weeks shy of 2020 and Harley charges its customers a premium to do basic research and development on their behalf...not for something technical or difficult...but for holding oil in a case. Henry Ford figured this out in 1896.
"Very few of the touring models". I personally know 4 people with M8 equipped touring bikes, a 2017, 2 2018 and 1 2019. 3 of them have the transfer issue. In two, the vent kit fixed it (after months of back and forth with their dealer and HD customer service). On the '17, they installed the flinger, which didn't fix the issue. Basically they shrugged their shoulders and said too bad. He wound up going to court over it. Between their failure to introduce a fix in the manufacturing process and the struggles to even get the problem acknowledged by those who have had it, I no longer have plans to buy any more new Harleys.
You do realize these bikes cost over $30k? I’m sorry it’s a nice little story but the loyal days are over. I want the best for my money and HD engineering and QC sucks. M8 should have zero problems no buts - it’s been three years already.
The vent kit was installed in my RKS 2019 after I noticed no trans oil on dipstick. I think this problem is more than eventual. Which explain why all 2020 touring have this from factory.
Absolutely it was...he's trying to down play it..it happened on my 17' Rgu..there was no fix at the time..just a bunch of maybe this or that..got tired of it n got rid of of it last yr...too bad I did like the ride tho...
Doc need your help as locale dealer can figure out my 2017 FLSS issue. As stated, I have a 2017 FLSS with the transmission fluid migration. This has been verified twice fluid migrates into primary housing within 200 miles leaving transmission with no fluid. What do you recommend. I knoiw that the dealer supplied kit is only for the touring bikes, where as it wont work oin softail model as the primaries are different.
I wrote an Email to you not knowing this issue has been verified. I still recommend the dye in the trans oil to reveal the path of transfer. Could be transferring through the bolts attachment of primary to transmission. Porosity in case ( highly doubtful) check the small breather hose on top of trans cover. Insects love to pack this closed. A Softtail with this issue is my first…..Doc
Oh dear it all seems a bit hit and miss. They have know idea why its happening and why only on some touring models. Doesn't fill you full of confidence.
Doc you are the friggin best! Nobody on the internet has addressed this problem with the level of expertise and explanation you have and you did it flawlessly. I just bought an M8 touring and this will make me sleep easy and enjoy my motorcycle more knowing the only known issue with the 2020 and newer M8’s is explained in the way you have. Keep making awesome videos! One day I’ll ride the 1400+ miles to come meet ya and say hi!
@@LowCountryHarleyDavidson doc, maybe you can do a video explaining the tic sound Everyone talks about on the M8s. I’ve heard that it’s a million things. Like the oil cooler, rockers, etc. what is it really!?
Slinger sure didn't work, did it? Document 3 Trans, primary oil changes for a 50 dollar kit? HD knew about the problem when the bikes hit the show room floor!
Question Doc, I've got a 2021 Harley Davidson Fat Bob 114 FXFBS. Did HD fix the issues with oil pumps on the 2021 M8's ? I am about to install the Zippers Red Shift 468 cam and what I'm asking you is does my 2021 FXFBS have the fix that was going on in earlier models?
In my opinion the only models with issues was the Touring family. Softtails can be improved by the 2022 oil pump and of course the SE inner cam bearing…Doc
may i add something to this that they may not have considered? typically the touring models dont get hammered on by old guys like myself, i have a 2020 roadglide limited which comes with the extra vent, i have been sick and havent ridden much in 2 years, i had it serviced at dealer to ride this season, the trans was empty, they corrected the levels, i rode 100 miles, it was empty again, they tore it down and replaced the seals between trans and primary, i rode 100 miles trans was empty again, at this point im wondering what is going on.... I have worked in various car dealerships for 45 years... so i decide to investigate what was going on. the vent installed in the primary was fine, the one on trans cover had an insect in it, travels from high pressure to low..... forcing oil out of trans and into primary, i didnt get oil blowby or oil consumption because i never hammer on it so no visible signs of oil being pushed out of crankcase.
So glad you found the insect in top transmission cover breather tube. Without this open you will continue to have issues. Note to everyone, if your bike sits at rest for a long time check this tube……Doc
Awesome video. Thank you, Doc for the very detailed explanation. As someone already request it, I also request a video on the M8 oil sumping issue. Unfortunately, as it is already happening in the comments of this video, there is too much comments complaining about Harleys instead of focusing on the issue.
I have a 19 sgs with 6k miles just did my oil change. I have 16 extra ounces in my primary and 1/4 of a quart in my tranny. I’ve been driving like that for who knows how long. Harley won’t fix it without going through hoops and 15k miles later. It’s a little ridiculous in my opinion. This part probably cost them 10 dollars. It would cost me 400 dollars for them to do it now. I’ve just paid 30 plus thousand dollars for this bike I I shouldn’t have to be afraid my tranny is going to blowout or I’m gonna have issues with my primary. Extremely poor customer service in my opinion. Harley knows damn well that this is an issue fix the god damn bikes. They want to make people jump through hoops so half of the people will just pay to get it done just for the peace of mind. Kinda like these insurance companies with hurricane Ian.
That’s a large Rant. I assume you bought the 19 used because new serviced regularly at a dealership this would have been covered and fixed with the primary breather. $400 seems high to install this breather…..Doc
Had mine done right after delivery of my 2019 RK Special in April. I do my own wrenching and my first oil change at the 1000 mile mark I said " gee thats not right" Did all three holes then went to my local HD dealer and my mechanic said yep it's a problem. That day they put the fix in and now trouble free at 5400 miles. Glad HD fixed the problem after the builds dates of May 2019 and installed this on I think all hydraulic clutch models. Great vid for those who didn't know.
so did you pay for the install of kit ??? are u talking about that drilling of a hole kit ??? i have a 2019 king... with 5k on it... dealer did the 1k service ,,,, so i don't know if i had a problem on that... i will go ask them .... but i just changed the oil 3 days ago at 5k and i did not check the level before i drained it out for i did know or hear of a problem of level changing problem... oh well i will check it at every 1k miles now...
Find it strang that HD repaired it so quickly..because as Doc mention HD corp..will not authorize it until it has been documented 3 times...how do I know..because I just bought a 2018 SG with 200 miles on it. In November 2019..after riding it for few days, i had it put in storage at HD for winter and had them do a stage 1 ..as of today 12/21/19 they. Completed the stage 1 and I'm taking it on a ride in 2 today's. So while I was their I brought this subject up and he said yes they did fine some transfer and contacted HD to get it documented. So now he said they have to keep tack and if in 2 more inspections its still an issue then it will be corrected..luckily I wont have to pay for it because basically it is a new bike and I only had it for month . And they found it early
You mentioned this transfer happened on a few touring models. Which models - 107, 114, 117? On models that were suspect HD engineers could put in a sensor to measure the amount of oil that transfers so they could verify what’s happening.
EVERY 1000 MILES pull derby cover off and it will pour out if you have the problem, it will always fill up the primary area. also they talk about the clutch is very hard to use when to much oil is in the primary ??? why i do not know why... but a master tech told me this... so look for that..also after a few times of checking primary and no over fill then your golden and bike is good. now master tech told me that they fix this problem half way in 2019 so i have one of these 2019 king. i just did a 5K oil service but did not check levels. i did not know about problem and just drained out all fluids... but i just called harley dealership and they said i had no problem at the 1K service for they said they would of installed kit for venting off the presser air for free.. they are on top of this problem...
If you follow the service guidelines recommended by Harley Davidson it is easy to find and correct this. The primary fluid is not changed at 5k but the clutch should be inspected -hence if the primary is over filled it is cought. We noticed in early 2017 on a couple of our rental bikes that it was happening (we did inspections after every time the bike is rented for safety) and we changed our service procedures to always pull the derby cover before we drain either the transmission or primary so we could identify it early when it did happen.
just went to put a custom derby cover on my 19 trike, when I took off the stock cover a large amount of oil spilled out onto the floor, way more than could possibly be from overfill, the tranny dipstick has no reading, will I still have to go thru the two-service documentation routine or has that policy been updated? its an obvious transfer problem that should have been picked up by my dealer during all the bikes scheduled services they performed at 5 k intervals; bike has 17k on it.
Sir the program has been dropped by the Factory. They believe in 2023 all the early models have been serviced. You will need to pay for the breather kit in the primary if you believe your bike has the transfer of oil issue.
It is transferring through the clutch rod passage because of vacuum. The breather tube eliminates the vacuum. Harley should definitely cover it under warranty. Most people are buying an aftermarket larger diameter shift rod but it is not made out of hard enough metal and ends up putting fillings in the oil. If you find a cheap low mileage 2018 or 2019 Harley you know that it is transferring bad. This kit will solve the problem but I have to wonder if it will allow condensation to get to the oil in the bike . Harley needs to step up our go out on business.
I just had this start happening on my '17 RGS. WTF doesn't HD do this for me? WTF don't they fix it on newer models? Very annoying! And the sad thing is I don't trust the dealer to do it.
How is the transmission vented through the inner primary?? I see no porting going into the transmission from the location where the vent tube is inserted. I can only imagine the primary being vented from there. Please explain this fix better. I see smoke and mirrors here!
Doc, I have a 2020 FLHTK and just did a 3 hole oil change, my transmission only had 20oz in it and the primary was over full about 12 oz. Current mileage is 23k, last 3 hole change was a year ago at 7k my bike has this vent on the primary already what’s your thoughts?
The humor in me ask if the bike is kept under a tarp outside. Wasps love to plug the small hose coming out of the top transmission cover. A blocked hole will have the primary sucking oil out of the transmission. Other reasons include lowering the rear a lot but not the front. Fluid level covers the main shaft. Take it to your trusted tech and figure it out together…..Doc
Thank you Doc, that was an excellent breakdown, and history review of this problem. You explain things very well. I will make a note though, that maybe in the grand scheme of things, with how many bikes are sold, how many people actually document fluid changes and levels, that it's a "few or rare event", however it's happening to a lot of bikes. I did the kit myself on a 2017 SGS, and you are correct in the fact that in most cases the dealership should do this, not the customer. I'm a mechanic by trade so I was more than comfortable doing it, but the template definitely leaves some room for error due to the distance from paper to center punch in primary, and angle can throw drill location off, and if you don't thoroughly evaluate before drilling you could find yourself either too low or even into the starter housing if too far left. Mine was spot on. Thanks for doing the video, and keem em coming.
Hello brother, we are from Saudi Arabia. We ask you to activate the translation so that the benefit may spread. We thank you and greatly appreciate you
Sir we have thought about this in the early years. Are fear is sometimes translation changes words and meanings. It does not help when others say I do not speak clearly…..Doc
No wonder there is oil coming out of the derby cover when I didn't refill the primary after replacing the starter clutch. Took about a 200 mile journey before I realized I screwed up. This video makes me feel like less of an idiot. 1st harley for me , 1984 fxrs . My favorite bike I own. Great info thank you.
My 2019 Roadglide ultra has this problem. Just brought it to my dealer to get the vent kit done. The fluid in the transmission wasn't touching the stick. I pulled the derby cover and oil poured out. Hopefully this problem will be solved. Greg William's makes a fat shift rod to fix this too.
2018 Rode Glide Special owner here. Transmission blew out 5th gear. Dealership said must be rider error. Said I must have been riding HOURS in 5th with cruise control on. Was less than 1 hour from home where bike had to be towed to dealership. One week later picked up bike rode exact same route. Bike now leaking oil. Returned to dealership. Mechanic said speed indicator was melted to block previously so had to be replaced and that seal was not installed properly, thus confirming that oil did transfer. Dealership lied to me and had no concern whatsoever to customer satisfaction. Have prepaid service agreement. SHIT!!!!!!
And how come it's only happen on a few models when they're all using the same damn motor? Total company man side of the story the more you defend them the less I trust you
To bad they didn't come up with the solution last yr when I owned the 17' Rgu M8..went a couple of times to the dealer n got several possibilities on my migration ..which was 15 oz from trans to primary..after the second try in only 200 miles..drained the primary myself to confirm oil level..needless to say got rid of it an bought a competitor thereafter that does not have this issue with migration ..HD needs to step up on their reliability in their products..n I know of quite a few that had the same issue as I had..by the way I still own a 92' Flhs Evo..solid mill..
Saying it’s been happening on “a few touring models” seems to also be saying that they don’t want to admit that it should be a recall. THEY’RE MADE EXACTLY THE SAME! ITS AN ASSEMBLY LINE! The only reason they’re saying its happening only here and there is because not everyone does their own oil changes in order to notice. When the dealer does your oil change, do they check what the levels are before they drain each pan? No....that protects them from discovering the problem. I think that Doc Harley should explain why it only happens on some and not all. Doc’s explanation is more information than we’ve ever received from anyone else though.
From what I can see, it's only the hydraulic clutch equipped touring bikes... Most still have the clutch cables, and those bikes don't have this issue. They are not all the same.
@@patrickzambori473 thanks for that information. Something I wasn’t aware of. I fixed my oil transfer with the primary vent so hopefully it stays that way!
Great explanation. I had the issue on 2018 RKS and I know you say it is rare and on just a few but the issue is much larger than you state. I know 6 buddies in the local HOG chapter that had the same issue Harley was a PITA to work with initially and denied it was an issue. Said it was how I rode the bike!! LOL Finally they did the dye test and it transferred 6 oz in 500 miles. The oil deflector was installed and the issue got worse. Transferred 19Oz from Trans to primary!! I ordered a 3rd party push rod and problem was solved. I had them install the last kit as a precaution. Great explanation of the issue but Harley knows this is a bigger issue as they now install the breather on new touring bikes.
My 2018 FLXS now has the slinger (which didn’t help) and the vent. So far the fluid is staying where it belongs. All free of charge. Thx Doc and thx Harley D!
Boas Doc, se a Harley Davidson tem este Problema desde pelo menos 2017 até 2020 , a nível mundial deve ser milhares de motos com este problema, as motos ao sair de fabrica já deveria trazer este problema já resolvido ou chamar os clientes as concessionárias para resolver na hora, com isto tudo faz com que os clientes H D pensem duas vezes antes de comprar outra H D . Cumprimentos.
Stupid question but when changing oil, pull the plug first and then filter when it's about done draining? The reason I ask is because the last video focused on the oil filter and not drain plug.
Good video but 12 bikes out of our 22 bike group had the problem my 19 RK empty the transmission every 500 miles so did 2 others Harley install the vent tubes in them so far it has solved the problem
This would be rare....Documantation is the first step...take notes of oil in each for three oil changes...must be done straight up on level platform. Is your bike stock? Has it been lowered in the back only? Having the bike angled to the rear can sometimes gather Trans fluid at the main shaft. Then while the bike is on the jiffy stand oil flows through the main shaft to Primary....Doc
All original suspension and angles bicycle. I made these notes transfers an average of 400ml of oil from the gearbox to the primary. The bike is used for a short period of time. This problem I noticed after replacing the basket hub and compensator for an eliminator. Oil transfers through the clutch actuation rod. A mechanic made a breather in the primary, solved the transfer but through this breather now leaks oil from the primary. Could any solutions adopted in M8 serve for M6? For example kit 36300028 or a larger diameter shaft.
I was unaware of the situation. At 5000 miles when changing fluids I noticed almost no oil in the transmission and it was in the primary. I vented the primary case. Problem solved.
So your note in the video stated that 2020 touring models had the kit installed as a preventative concern. I have a 2019 Street Glide special (114ci). I am about ready to take it in for its 1000 mile service. Should inquire about the kit to have it installed?
Kind of funny when Harley has a small issue to a few products, everyone is up in arms about it. Saying Harley’s are junk and unreliable. Tesla has all kinds of issues and are leaving people stranded without a vehicle and a huge car payment. But people give them a pass and even defend them. Lol
great explanation. now I finally understand. on many of the group discussions it is so confusing. people need to understand that this happens to cars too uggggh. they are so complex anymore there is bound to be something. that is why we have warranty. and I wonder too those who are blowing out their engines to larger displacement contribute to this issue.
HD installed the vent on my 2019 Ultra at 2900 miles. it slowed it down but never fixed it. At 38K miles it moves enough fluid in just a few thousand miles to reduce the friction zone in the clutch pack. Second time back they simply adjusted the fluids and told me it was the Flo-Moto lever causing the reduction in the friction zone, even though it only happens when the trans is low and the primary is over full, SMH. And even though I've been changing out both fluids every 5K, with my 5k service due to wanting to keep the bike for 150K. If i had waited to change out those fluids at 20K, like the manual says, there wouldn't be any room left in the primary, nor any friction zone, LOL Loss of friction zone is a safety problem, so its in a lemon law case at the moment. If they can't fix it, ask for a buy back!!
This all got started when HD moved the throw out bearing to the pressure plate. I see a lot of bikes with the transfer problem and there is a fix that moves the throw out bearing back to the side cover side. It works and no more worries.
I've seen this in my 2017 FLHP with an M8. My dealer is aware and we are following the process outlined in your video. This video is the best explanation yet of the problem. Thanks for the info and you get a new subscriber.
Doc fantastic video!! It's great to have someone explain that's knowledgeable, and doesn't treat the student like a fool. Racing and wrenching for more than 50 years. Well not racing anymore!! Lol Thanks again Tom
Great video, well explained! I don’t know how true it is, but I know a guy that had the issue on his ‘19 SG and said the first sign for him was difficulty shifting gears (likely due to low transmission oil). I assume you wouldn’t notice though unless you lost enough transmission oil over into the primary.
Thank you. I was one of the unlucky ones with the oil transfer issue on my 2017 M8 Street glide. The local dealers went through the appropriate steps outlined for them from Harley (Milwaukee). The first attempt was the "deflector" as you described and clearly showed in the video and then finally the vent tube when the deflector didn't work. FYI, the transfer would happen within the first 1000 miles after the levels were set and checked in the transmission. All is good now. Thanks again.
That was an amazingly well detailed and descriptive explanation of an issue I never even knew existed!
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@@rgh622 better keep an eye on trans oil level often. I did take two 3k trips this summer, reading other posts on this issue people think it happens on long rides. Harley Davidson needs to install a trans dipstick that requires no tools to make checking this easily like the engine oil.
Sounds like Harley should install it and do it for free seeing as how it’s a manufacturing issue. Anyone else think so?
I can't see why you would have to pay for the repairs..it's a manufacturer defect...just as with cars. Who said you have to pay for it....
The dealers are doing it for free but you have to take it in and have it documented just like Doc talked about.
I think most have not had to pay it.
it cost to much to get a service done. i can do it for under $100 3 services at 300 each 900 now ??? i will just watch the level close...
Should just be a damn recall
what could go wrong you drill a precision placed hole with a PAPER template
Why dont they send out a plastic template. Easy and cheap...paper...geeeez
THAT...I have to agree with. Or why don't they make a rigid metal or plastic template?
@vtec947 the engine doesn't breathe through the driveline. The primary is difficult to vent because when the engine is running, oil is flying *everywhere* in there, so venting it through the mainshaft was the best way without blowing a bunch of oil out of the vent path.
Thanks for the video and I have one correction for you. This is not a “rare” problem! My 19 RGS did it from brand new and two of my buddies touring bikes now have
vent kits installed.....so far from rare. My biggest question is....what damage has been done to my trans since it ran 12 OZ low on two occasions (in the trans) for hundreds of miles which definitely affected the ride ability of my bike. The shifting became very “clunky” due to the low oil level and the clutch didn’t perform correctly due to the primary being overfilled. As a consumer.....Harley should be extending the warranty on these power train parts for a minimum of five years total so customers have piece of mind due to Harley’s engineering mistake.
TheMarkMillerGroup absolutely agree!! It should be a damned recall!
Mine went low between the 0 and 1000 miles and again between 1000 and 5000 then between 5000 and 9000 when I realized there was an issue. Trans shifts fine, no weird noises and no metal on the plug but I wonder if some microscopic damage was done.
@@boblafountaine9560 Exactly they know
I've experienced the same thing. I called Harley customer support and they said that they never heard of this issue. I got a friend riding a 2005 BMW that the factory replaced his fuel pump FREE. Come Harley Davidson.
But long story short no actual problem. Unless all the oil goes away it does no harm. If changed on schedule you would not even notice the difference. Same oil in both holes.
Doc you are the reason why I trust true Harley Davidson Tech's , thank you .
Very well said.
If you thing all Harley techs are like Doc Harley you are dead wrong. You'll find out , just wait and see.
Yo Ringo I look at my comments and I said true techs I don't see were I said all , but thanks for the " KAREN "Reply .
@@BigTruckRacing ....That True tech makes a lot of sense ! I wish I would find a true tech , gggg. What a KAREN reply
I have not met a good Harley Tech at Harley.
I was at my local dealership a few days ago (12-13-19) and there was a guy at the service counter (I was next to him at parts buying oil change related stuff) complaining that he has to add oil to his transmission on his new 2020 street glide after he travels to see his daughter (all interstate ride 70+ mph one hour there and 1 hour back he said).
He said riding below 70 mph oil doesn't disappear---- said he was really concerned and couldn't figure out what was happening. The service guy told him he had never heard of that issue before and that he probably just wasn't filling it properly. I couldn't do anything but SMDH.
I've been reading about this issue on Harley tech talk forum for years and here it is 4 model years later and still happening (even with the primary vent apparently). I have worked in manufacturing for the last 35 years and can honestly say there is zero excuse for this type of "ongoing" design flaw on a product ---- especially one that costs this much. This issue alone is the reason I will keep my twin cam touring bike into retirement instead of buying the new HD I was planning to (Currently at 43k miles with only repair being a new brake light switch). I didn't have the heart to go outside and tell the dude he had an issue that HD has let fester since the MW8 first come out in 2017 and he should pop off his derby cover to let his primary get back down to the proper level.
HD ENGINEERING MANAGER --- YOU SHOULD HIRE A GOOD ENGINEERING CONSULTANT TO FIGURE OUT THIS ISSUE FOR YOU AS APPARENTLY YOU GUYS LACK THE ENGINEERING TALENT OR HAVE SUCH A LACK OF ENGINEERING LEADERSHIP THAT YOU ARE COMPLETELY UNABLE TO FIX THIS ISSUE PROPERLY. THERE IS NO SHAME IN ADMITTING THAT YOU ARE IN OVER YOUR HEAD SOMETIMES AND NEED SOME HELP. THE SHAME IS IN SELLING PEOPLE $30K+ TOURING MOTORCYCLES THAT THEY CANT TOUR ON WITHOUT THE RISK OF RUNNING THEIR TRANSMISSION DRY.
THE MANUFACTURER I WORK FOR HAS BROUGHT IN CONSULTING FIRMS NUMEROUS TIMES OVER THE YEARS TO SOLVE TOUGH PROBLEMS SO I KNOW IT CAN BE DONE. ITS WAYYYYY PAST TIME TO FIX THIS ISSUE
Jack Wagon amen brother! Well said, well said!
@@boblafountaine9560 Amen, No problems with my 99 RHC. If they fix this issue, I'll buy a new one on 2-22-2022.
Amen
Amen!!!
absolutely !!, consult a lemon law attorney, HD obviously can't fix it, only treat the symptoms.
“On a rare occasion”??? “A little bit more oil...and a little bit less”????
C’mon, that’s almost as euphemistic as “they all do that!”
AV84USA ya, this guy’s full of shit on this topic I’m afraid 💩
I am one of the “lucky” few who has experienced the oil transfer issue. Took a 2800 mile trip and 11 oz. of oil transferred from the tranny to the primary. I have since fixed my issue but find it very discerning that Harley claims it tests its engine design thoroughly before release, yet this issue has been around now for multiple years. Thanks Doc,well explained.
I'm right there with you. Why couldn't it have been the Mega Millions jackpot? I loaned a friend my bike 2017 FLHTP (7000 miles) to make a 300 mile round trip. When he returned I could hear a noise when I took off for work. I turned around after 1/4 mile. That evening I took it to a local shop as scheduled but not because of the noise. I have stock pipes so I could hear better. Against my suggestion they dive into the primary. Nothing visibly wrong. My suggestion was to drain each compartment individually and look for metal. After nothing in the primary they tried to drain the tranny that had very little oil. We're going to complete the scheduled oil change and pray the noise is gone. if Harley knew this was a problem, the least they could've done was give the customer a heads up to watch your tranny more often due bro blah blah. I called Harley about a recall or knowledge of any instances of my situation and they said that they didn't know anything about this problem. My bike is 2017 bough new (7 miles)t in 2019. I ride year round 50 miles a week work and home. Go figure.
Precisely what I experienced with my 2019 SG!
It happens to ALMOST all of them. It's cheaper just to buy the kit, do it yourself. Than to play tag, at the dealership. Sad part is, bikes with the vent, can still do it. Install the bigger clutch rod. This issue is completely unacceptable. 3 times to address it. Let me tell you something, on a new bike, if you're losing ANY transmission fulid, you got problems. I've owned new bikes for decades, this has NEVER been an issue on any of them, period. Till I bought an M8, did a 5k transmission service & never even looked at it. Zero issues.
SHOULD BE FIXED AT FIRST SIGN.... HD needs better engineers and testing...sad they install it on 2020 models..yet earlier models they say check it 3 times..that is pure BS..if their is signs then fix it..bs 3 check rule..
Very informative, thanks for all you do Doc!
Hi Doc, Great explanation!! I am one of the “lucky” few, 2019 Road Glide Special. Vent kit installed at 5000 mile service. My theory is the type/frequency of riding is why some bikes see the issue and others do not. I ride to work daily, 63 miles each way, about 60 minutes of travel time highway/80 minutes backroads. If the clutch rod tolerance is too loose the “churning/blending” will cause the transfer and the longer/harder you ride the more chance the issue will show up.
Oil transfer happening on only a few touring models sure does seem like a larger problem when the few includes mine. Had the primary vent installed and it's been good ever since.
Jeff Johnson Definitely not rare in my opinion when you can go literally anywhere on the Internet and come up with hundreds of people having these issues
@@jeffreyengle2762 Exactly
Yeah mine transferred like 2-4oz every 600-800 miles basically 2 - 3 gas tanks... i actually ordered the vent kit from Europe and installed myself when my dealer hadn’t “heard” about this issue haha
What bikes are effected by this. ?? I have a 2020 road glide special
My 2018 Rg has the same problem
It’s a Joy to watch your videos , I’m learning a Lot !!
I wish my local dealership would have Techs like you. They are not. :(
The problem with most dealerships is, get it done quick, not necessarily right! Been there, then the battle begins.
Doc, this may have been rare a year ago, its well known now. My RK does it and most every bike with a Hydraulic clutch does it. HD needs to recall this and fess up. My dealer wants to charge me 71.00 plus oil for tyranny and chaincase oil change to start out a 1k mile measurement. This is just plain wrong.
I am experiencing this problem on my 2018 FLHTK. I have my own theory from my personal experiences. I have been doing my own servicing on my Harleys for over 20 years and am a retired auto/heavy equipment mechanic. What I have experienced is that my 2018 M8 will not transfer trans oil to the primary when just riding casual rides. Only when riding long distances at highway speeds in hot weather, do I experience oil transfer in sufficient amount to be concerned. Every year I take 2 vacations with my wife and actually tour with my M8, this is when I experience transfer. Long days riding interstate highways, racking up the miles for hours at high RPMs. Usually in late July and August when temps exceed 80 degrees. This may be the reason it is showing up to be a rare problem and why it is only affecting Touring models. We know most riders are going out for a weekend ride in the country on back roads enjoying the scenery and a casual ride. I think this type of ride negates the problem. I would like to get the warranty but do not want to go through the process of 3 dealer oil changes and the miles back and forth to my dealer. Also I would have to recreate the issue by touring long distances between all 3 oil changes. This will be expensive undertaking. I've seen many different remedies for this problem and many reviews saying they don't work. I know this was 4 years ago, but has HD come to a final conclusion? Also, I appreciate every video you put up and wish I was close to your dealership to have you service my Harleys! Keep up the good work!!
WD thanks for your post with facts. Sadly yo say any models with transfer issues are no longer addressed by the Factory. The “kits” are still available. It is my understanding HD has accepted their “fix” and has incorporated this in all touring models. Purchase the Kit and outer primary cover gasket, fluid and install it your self with your ability. ….Doc
I appreciate the video but there are a lot more affected bikes than you are alluding too. It’s a fairly big issue. I’m glad there is an apparent fix now. Harley now installs this vent on the 2020s from the factory so they are aware of the magnitude of the issue.
Awesome video I have a 2019 street glide that had this issue. It was a little upsetting having a brand new bike that would almost drain the transmission in a 1000 miles. Needs to say the dealer documented the issue. Then had me drive it around for 500 miles and rechecked. They did the update kit and so far I had zero issues with fluid transfer. The bike now has over 5000 trouble free miles.
christopher scafuri did they do it for free seeing as how it’s a manufacturing issue on a new bike?
Yes the bike is under warranty
Hey Doc, why are the motorscastings so different on the M8s between the Touring bikes and Softails? None of these problems have occured on the Softails. I would bet that the differenses in castings has something to do with it.
Scott Peters it’s not the castings....the softail has a cable clutch and different clutch rod than the touring which is hydraulic. The clutch rods in the touring are too small allowing the transfer.
@@TheMarkMillerGroup hmmmm, I was told the castings have different oil channels and more of them than the touring bikes. IDK, will research further.
My 2017 FLTRU had the issue. Dealer put in the Primary Vent kit and it it helped with "short trips" but didn't solve the issue for long trips. (I was right at 5oz in 5k - annoying). Dealer recommended, and I tried, the "Greg Williams" oversize clutch rod. Turns out after I ordered it, that the previous owner had already installed the Greg Williams oversized rod - so I contacted Macomb County Choppers and advised them I already had one installed - but still had transfer. "Greg" contacted me directly and said "harley had two diameters in the M8 clutch rod "center shaft openings", and after some q&a "Greg" decided I should try his "slightly even larger" oversize rod (he apparenetly offers two sizes of oversized clutch rods). He sent the slightly larger version of the oversize clutch rod - thank you - and I installed it. It moves freely back and forth with very little side to side movement. So far seems great.
Thanks for sharing. I did not know….Doc
That was informative Doc. I own. 2019 Ultra Limited and as luck would have it, I had the oil transfer problem and venting kit was put on my bike. This in my opinion could be considered a Mickey Mouse way to fix the problem. I recently learned that a Greg Williams designed new push rod is available with a larger diameter and a flat side. Fixed in ten minutes by the owner and problem solved. Look I love my bike but Harley could have stepped up a hell of a lot better.
I own a 2018 Ultra Limited with 22,400 miles on it and recently have this oil transfer issue. All services are done at the dealership and have some fellow riders that experience this issue within the first 10,000 miles. I use the Harley Davidson 80/140 synthetic oil in the transmission. While I was riding I noticed that the transmission was not shifting as smoothly as normal and while letting of the throttle I would have a noticeable transmission whine. After getting home I could smell hot oil and put the motorcycle on my dolly and checked the transmission level. I’ll was barely on the dipstick so I called the dealership and they picked it up. They drained the transmission and discovered that there was only 17 ounces left in the transmission. Now I am waiting on Harley-Davidson to give the ok to dismantle and inspect the transmission on the condition of the bearings.
Thanks for the report. Hope everything works out for you. Thanks ~ Doc
Do you have the vent ?
HDs customer testing program is amazing.
Where do I sign up?
WE are HD testing program! They cant recreate? Really? Do they not ride their own motorcycles?
It’s a pretty minor issue. BMWs issue usually kill the rider so I guess they aren’t around to complain about it afterwards.
@5:40 shows transmission spacer and seal off a 5-speed transmission pulley spacer redesigned in 1994 having more surface contact to support the drive pulley and prevent a different issue H-D was dealing with @the time. That seal on a H-D would NOT prevent oil from entering the primary. that seal failure would result in a puddle on the ground. Oil can ONLY enter the Primary from Transmission through the center of Mainshaft, as you have stated, and the Main Engine Case Seal. I have seen Primary's pour several ounces out thru derby cover and the trans dipstick dry, convincing me the issue lies there. easily 8-12 oz of oil. I've also seen the EXACT same thing on a VENTED 'Band-aid' Primary...Unless the 'WIZZ-BANG 'Tech that performed the Vent Update failed to adjust the Trans fluid. That's Definitely a Possibility... I Honestly Believe the Trans Vent due to it's location, possibly doesn't allow proper venting due to the 'Blender' Affect? H-D was most likely hoping this issue would go away like a Bad Fart...getting lost with all the other nonsense going on in today's world...Great Video's Doc Thanks!!!
I was torn between a 2024 RG and a low mileage 2019 CVO RG at the same price. Decided on the CVO only to find I have the transfer issue when I changed the fluids yesterday. Probably only 15 ounces came out of the transmission and way too much came out of the primary. Talk about buyer’s remorse.
I have a 2019 Sport Glide (M8) with no mods to the engine. Have had my 3rd service done and over 12,000 miles on it in 9 mos. Zero issues with transfer. Absolutely love the bike and she's my main transportation.
Glad to see you ride! I cry when I see 3-5 year old bikes (pre-owned) on the sales floor with only 5k miles on them
Same here, but on a sport glide 2018. 37.000 kilometers now and no problems. Thanks Doc, for the great video.
Thank you sir for the video and this important information.
What crazy designs Harley-Davidson comes up with. Talk about an old fashioned load of crap. My Yamaha cruiser is now 16 years old. It has never broken down on me and all I do is have it serviced at the proper intervals. It has NEVER had any oil problems like Harley-Davidson motorcycles have.
I have a 2014 SGS. Love my bike.
But, what HD is doing in handling this, is plain disgraceful.
Now, HD wants the customer $'s to correct their problem.
And with a paper template! Disgraceful.
Thank you Doc Harley! I’ve got a 2019 Street Glide on which I perform a 3-hole fluid change, religiously, every 5,000 miles. Because of a minor oil leak, that I determined was from the oil in my reusable air filter, I dropped the oil from my transmission into my oil pan. I poured the transmission gear oil into my quart measuring cup that I use for oil changes and I had 18 oz. At the last oil change, about 3,500 miles prior, exactly 28 oz. has been put into the transmission. Thus, 10 oz. had ended up in my primary. What are your thoughts?
For the record, I’ve been a long-time (40 year plus) DIY mechanic who has pulled and installed car engines, replaced drive shafts, rebuilt many carburetors, starters and alternators, completed brake jobs including rebuilding wheel cylinders and machining drums and rotors, etc. I’m not even close to being a mechanic, but I’m much more knowledgeable and skilled than the average bike owner.
I would remove the trans side cover and see if your model had the Slinger installed. If not, reassemble and install the primary breather kit. If it does have the slinger, remove, reassemble and install the Primary breather kit.....Doc
ruclips.net/video/QolhZGpFULQ/видео.html this is a better video on the oil transfer issue on Big Twin, mostly on the touring models, from the transmission to the primary and the fix/remedy.
Lies not on a few touristes models
My dealer have plenty of this kit in storage.
In Storage and not on bikes 🤷♂️ kinda proves the point….Doc
All motorcycles are built the same... If the issue is a problem on one it can be a problem anytime on another. thanks for the explanation.
I assume you mean all H-D’s are built the same. Most if not all other bikes use unit engines.
You should do it to all the Milwaukee eight this is a total rip-off $300 for an oil change three times so you can document it just make it a recall and fix it already at the very least these three oil changes should be free next time I'm buying an Indian
My 2020 Ultra came with.......you guessed it.......the primary vent mod already installed.
U know what's funny...i read a bunch of comments n quite a few of u had this migration issue..including myself ...n doc says it's a rare occurrence..no comment from the master yet?? .hmmm😳
Knowing I will be getting flamed for this....its 2 weeks shy of 2020 and Harley charges its customers a premium to do basic research and development on their behalf...not for something technical or difficult...but for holding oil in a case. Henry Ford figured this out in 1896.
"Very few of the touring models". I personally know 4 people with M8 equipped touring bikes, a 2017, 2 2018 and 1 2019. 3 of them have the transfer issue. In two, the vent kit fixed it (after months of back and forth with their dealer and HD customer service). On the '17, they installed the flinger, which didn't fix the issue. Basically they shrugged their shoulders and said too bad. He wound up going to court over it. Between their failure to introduce a fix in the manufacturing process and the struggles to even get the problem acknowledged by those who have had it, I no longer have plans to buy any more new Harleys.
I hope that your personal experience isnt the case for the majority. Bad luck can be just that sometimes. Nothing new is ever perfect.
You do realize these bikes cost over $30k? I’m sorry it’s a nice little story but the loyal days are over. I want the best for my money and HD engineering and QC sucks. M8 should have zero problems no buts - it’s been three years already.
outstanding explanation and great video. Thanks so much for doing this.
Harleys suck! Buy an Indian and ride trouble free! It’s amazing Harley can figure out why it only happens on some Harleys and not others! Pretty lame!
You say certain models have this issue, which models are they? Thanks!
touring. it seems like the 114s have more trouble with it.
The vent kit was installed in my RKS 2019 after I noticed no trans oil on dipstick.
I think this problem is more than eventual. Which explain why all 2020 touring have this from factory.
So did the vent kit fix the problem?
Absolutely it was...he's trying to down play it..it happened on my 17' Rgu..there was no fix at the time..just a bunch of maybe this or that..got tired of it n got rid of of it last yr...too bad I did like the ride tho...
Doc need your help as locale dealer can figure out my 2017 FLSS issue. As stated, I have a 2017 FLSS with the transmission fluid migration. This has been verified twice fluid migrates into primary housing within 200 miles leaving transmission with no fluid. What do you recommend. I knoiw that the dealer supplied kit is only for the touring bikes, where as it wont work oin softail model as the primaries are different.
I wrote an Email to you not knowing this issue has been verified. I still recommend the dye in the trans oil to reveal the path of transfer. Could be transferring through the bolts attachment of primary to transmission. Porosity in case ( highly doubtful) check the small breather hose on top of trans cover. Insects love to pack this closed. A Softtail with this issue is my first…..Doc
Oh dear it all seems a bit hit and miss. They have know idea why its happening and why only on some touring models. Doesn't fill you full of confidence.
Doc you are the friggin best! Nobody on the internet has addressed this problem with the level of expertise and explanation you have and you did it flawlessly. I just bought an M8 touring and this will make me sleep easy and enjoy my motorcycle more knowing the only known issue with the 2020 and newer M8’s is explained in the way you have. Keep making awesome videos! One day I’ll ride the 1400+ miles to come meet ya and say hi!
I thank you for your positive feedback. It would be our pleasure to be a Destination Location......Doc
@@LowCountryHarleyDavidson doc, maybe you can do a video explaining the tic sound Everyone talks about on the M8s. I’ve heard that it’s a million things. Like the oil cooler, rockers, etc. what is it really!?
Slinger sure didn't work, did it? Document 3 Trans, primary oil changes for a 50 dollar kit? HD knew about the problem when the bikes hit the show room floor!
That is a large opinion…..Doc
Question Doc, I've got a 2021 Harley Davidson Fat Bob 114 FXFBS. Did HD fix the issues with oil pumps on the 2021 M8's ? I am about to install the Zippers Red Shift 468 cam and what I'm asking you is does my 2021 FXFBS have the fix that was going on in earlier models?
In my opinion the only models with issues was the Touring family. Softtails can be improved by the 2022 oil pump and of course the SE inner cam bearing…Doc
may i add something to this that they may not have considered? typically the touring models dont get hammered on by old guys like myself, i have a 2020 roadglide limited which comes with the extra vent, i have been sick and havent ridden much in 2 years, i had it serviced at dealer to ride this season, the trans was empty, they corrected the levels, i rode 100 miles, it was empty again, they tore it down and replaced the seals between trans and primary, i rode 100 miles trans was empty again, at this point im wondering what is going on.... I have worked in various car dealerships for 45 years... so i decide to investigate what was going on. the vent installed in the primary was fine, the one on trans cover had an insect in it, travels from high pressure to low..... forcing oil out of trans and into primary, i didnt get oil blowby or oil consumption because i never hammer on it so no visible signs of oil being pushed out of crankcase.
So glad you found the insect in top transmission cover breather tube. Without this open you will continue to have issues. Note to everyone, if your bike sits at rest for a long time check this tube……Doc
AND THE BREATHER INSTALLATION IS A RECALL OR DO WE HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT HARLEY DAVIDSON MISTAKE ? TOO
Harley Dealership just told me they will pay for everything...
Appreciate the detail in your vids, you are always so clear and concise. I'm sticking with my 2013 twin cam...she's solid as a rock haha! 🤘
Yes sir, mine too
Awesome video. Thank you, Doc for the very detailed explanation. As someone already request it, I also request a video on the M8 oil sumping issue. Unfortunately, as it is already happening in the comments of this video, there is too much comments complaining about Harleys instead of focusing on the issue.
Great job Doc, excellent description in laymen’s terms. Thx
I have a 19 sgs with 6k miles just did my oil change. I have 16 extra ounces in my primary and 1/4 of a quart in my tranny. I’ve been driving like that for who knows how long. Harley won’t fix it without going through hoops and 15k miles later. It’s a little ridiculous in my opinion. This part probably cost them 10 dollars. It would cost me 400 dollars for them to do it now. I’ve just paid 30 plus thousand dollars for this bike I I shouldn’t have to be afraid my tranny is going to blowout or I’m gonna have issues with my primary. Extremely poor customer service in my opinion. Harley knows damn well that this is an issue fix the god damn bikes. They want to make people jump through hoops so half of the people will just pay to get it done just for the peace of mind. Kinda like these insurance companies with hurricane Ian.
That’s a large Rant. I assume you bought the 19 used because new serviced regularly at a dealership this would have been covered and fixed with the primary breather. $400 seems high to install this breather…..Doc
Had mine done right after delivery of my 2019 RK Special in April. I do my own wrenching and my first oil change at the 1000 mile mark I said " gee thats not right" Did all three holes then went to my local HD dealer and my mechanic said yep it's a problem. That day they put the fix in and now trouble free at 5400 miles. Glad HD fixed the problem after the builds dates of May 2019 and installed this on I think all hydraulic clutch models. Great vid for those who didn't know.
so did you pay for the install of kit ??? are u talking about that drilling of a hole kit ??? i have a 2019 king... with 5k on it... dealer did the 1k service ,,,, so i don't know if i had a problem on that... i will go ask them .... but i just changed the oil 3 days ago at 5k and i did not check the level before i drained it out for i did know or hear of a problem of level changing problem... oh well i will check it at every 1k miles now...
Find it strang that HD repaired it so quickly..because as Doc mention HD corp..will not authorize it until it has been documented 3 times...how do I know..because I just bought a 2018 SG with 200 miles on it. In November 2019..after riding it for few days, i had it put in storage at HD for winter and had them do a stage 1 ..as of today 12/21/19 they. Completed the stage 1 and I'm taking it on a ride in 2 today's. So while I was their I brought this subject up and he said yes they did fine some transfer and contacted HD to get it documented. So now he said they have to keep tack and if in 2 more inspections its still an issue then it will be corrected..luckily I wont have to pay for it because basically it is a new bike and I only had it for month . And they found it early
You mentioned this transfer happened on a few touring models. Which models - 107, 114, 117? On models that were suspect HD engineers could put in a sensor to measure the amount of oil that transfers so they could verify what’s happening.
It did not matter the size of the motor. Nice Engineering suggestion….Doc
Have you experienced success installing the Greg Williams thicker push rod to resolve this problem?
I do not have experience with this product….Doc
Great & informative video Doc. I would not say this is a common problem.....but I would definitely not say it is "rare".
EVERY 1000 MILES pull derby cover off and it will pour out if you have the problem, it will always fill up the primary area. also they talk about the clutch is very hard to use when to much oil is in the primary ??? why i do not know why... but a master tech told me this... so look for that..also after a few times of checking primary and no over fill then your golden and bike is good. now master tech told me that they fix this problem half way in 2019 so i have one of these 2019 king. i just did a 5K oil service but did not check levels. i did not know about problem and just drained out all fluids... but i just called harley dealership and they said i had no problem at the 1K service for they said they would of installed kit for venting off the presser air for free.. they are on top of this problem...
If you follow the service guidelines recommended by Harley Davidson it is easy to find and correct this. The primary fluid is not changed at 5k but the clutch should be inspected -hence if the primary is over filled it is cought.
We noticed in early 2017 on a couple of our rental bikes that it was happening (we did inspections after every time the bike is rented for safety) and we changed our service procedures to always pull the derby cover before we drain either the transmission or primary so we could identify it early when it did happen.
just went to put a custom derby cover on my 19 trike, when I took off the stock cover a large amount of oil spilled out onto the floor, way more than could possibly be from overfill, the tranny dipstick has no reading, will I still have to go thru the two-service documentation routine or has that policy been updated? its an obvious transfer problem that should have been picked up by my dealer during all the bikes scheduled services they performed at 5 k intervals; bike has 17k on it.
Sir the program has been dropped by the Factory. They believe in 2023 all the early models have been serviced. You will need to pay for the breather kit in the primary if you believe your bike has the transfer of oil issue.
It is transferring through the clutch rod passage because of vacuum. The breather tube eliminates the vacuum. Harley should definitely cover it under warranty. Most people are buying an aftermarket larger diameter shift rod but it is not made out of hard enough metal and ends up putting fillings in the oil. If you find a cheap low mileage 2018 or 2019 Harley you know that it is transferring bad. This kit will solve the problem but I have to wonder if it will allow condensation to get to the oil in the bike . Harley needs to step up our go out on business.
I just had this start happening on my '17 RGS. WTF doesn't HD do this for me? WTF don't they fix it on newer models? Very annoying! And the sad thing is I don't trust the dealer to do it.
A strong sad opinion. Newer models are fixed of this issue. It would seem to me hard to earn your trust…..Doc
I think the primary chains tightening up too tight it's eating the bearings up on the main shaft and 8 in the seal up therefore allowing oil transfer
That’s thinking outside the box….Doc
How is the transmission vented through the inner primary?? I see no porting going into the transmission from the location where the vent tube is inserted. I can only imagine the primary being vented from there. Please explain this fix better. I see smoke and mirrors here!
The Primary breathes through the hollow main shaft through the transmission out the upper breather tube. Never any smoke and mirror here…..Doc
I really enjoy your videos... I have a better understanding of how my bike operates. Thank you :-)
Thank you for watching….Doc
Doc, I have a 2020 FLHTK and just did a 3 hole oil change, my transmission only had 20oz in it and the primary was over full about 12 oz. Current mileage is 23k, last 3 hole change was a year ago at 7k my bike has this vent on the primary already what’s your thoughts?
I’m running amsoil trans oil and amsoil primary oil in each area.
The humor in me ask if the bike is kept under a tarp outside. Wasps love to plug the small hose coming out of the top transmission cover. A blocked hole will have the primary sucking oil out of the transmission. Other reasons include lowering the rear a lot but not the front. Fluid level covers the main shaft. Take it to your trusted tech and figure it out together…..Doc
Thank you Doc, that was an excellent breakdown, and history review of this problem. You explain things very well. I will make a note though, that maybe in the grand scheme of things, with how many bikes are sold, how many people actually document fluid changes and levels, that it's a "few or rare event", however it's happening to a lot of bikes. I did the kit myself on a 2017 SGS, and you are correct in the fact that in most cases the dealership should do this, not the customer. I'm a mechanic by trade so I was more than comfortable doing it, but the template definitely leaves some room for error due to the distance from paper to center punch in primary, and angle can throw drill location off, and if you don't thoroughly evaluate before drilling you could find yourself either too low or even into the starter housing if too far left. Mine was spot on. Thanks for doing the video, and keem em coming.
Couldn’t you just measure the gap from the straight edge of the breather to the center of the hole then mark it on the back of the housing?
Hello brother, we are from Saudi Arabia. We ask you to activate the translation so that the benefit may spread. We thank you and greatly appreciate you
Sir we have thought about this in the early years. Are fear is sometimes translation changes words and meanings. It does not help when others say I do not speak clearly…..Doc
No wonder there is oil coming out of the derby cover when I didn't refill the primary after replacing the starter clutch. Took about a 200 mile journey before I realized I screwed up. This video makes me feel like less of an idiot. 1st harley for me , 1984 fxrs . My favorite bike I own. Great info thank you.
My 2019 Roadglide ultra has this problem. Just brought it to my dealer to get the vent kit done. The fluid in the transmission wasn't touching the stick. I pulled the derby cover and oil poured out. Hopefully this problem will be solved. Greg William's makes a fat shift rod to fix this too.
Does he have a website?
@@nickhildabridle1612 macomber county choppers
@@nickhildabridle1612 Macomb county choppers.. sorry for misspell
2018 Rode Glide Special owner here. Transmission blew out 5th gear. Dealership said must be rider error. Said I must have been riding HOURS in 5th with cruise control on. Was less than 1 hour from home where bike had to be towed to dealership. One week later picked up bike rode exact same route. Bike now leaking oil. Returned to dealership. Mechanic said speed indicator was melted to block previously so had to be replaced and that seal was not installed properly, thus confirming that oil did transfer. Dealership lied to me and had no concern whatsoever to customer satisfaction. Have prepaid service agreement. SHIT!!!!!!
Hi doc,does the primary breather kit fit a 09 roadking primary case?
No….Doc
And how come it's only happen on a few models when they're all using the same damn motor? Total company man side of the story the more you defend them the less I trust you
Something does not sound right,its the same motor you after mod all of them
To bad they didn't come up with the solution last yr when I owned the 17' Rgu M8..went a couple of times to the dealer n got several possibilities on my migration ..which was 15 oz from trans to primary..after the second try in only 200 miles..drained the primary myself to confirm oil level..needless to say got rid of it an bought a competitor thereafter that does not have this issue with migration ..HD needs to step up on their reliability in their products..n I know of quite a few that had the same issue as I had..by the way I still own a 92' Flhs Evo..solid mill..
Saying it’s been happening on “a few touring models” seems to also be saying that they don’t want to admit that it should be a recall. THEY’RE MADE EXACTLY THE SAME! ITS AN ASSEMBLY LINE! The only reason they’re saying its happening only here and there is because not everyone does their own oil changes in order to notice. When the dealer does your oil change, do they check what the levels are before they drain each pan? No....that protects them from discovering the problem. I think that Doc Harley should explain why it only happens on some and not all. Doc’s explanation is more information than we’ve ever received from anyone else though.
From what I can see, it's only the hydraulic clutch equipped touring bikes... Most still have the clutch cables, and those bikes don't have this issue. They are not all the same.
@@patrickzambori473 thanks for that information. Something I wasn’t aware of. I fixed my oil transfer with the primary vent so hopefully it stays that way!
Great explanation. I had the issue on 2018 RKS and I know you say it is rare and on just a few but the issue is much larger than you state. I know 6 buddies in the local HOG chapter that had the same issue Harley was a PITA to work with initially and denied it was an issue. Said it was how I rode the bike!! LOL Finally they did the dye test and it transferred 6 oz in 500 miles. The oil deflector was installed and the issue got worse. Transferred 19Oz from Trans to primary!! I ordered a 3rd party push rod and problem was solved. I had them install the last kit as a precaution. Great explanation of the issue but Harley knows this is a bigger issue as they now install the breather on new touring bikes.
My 2018 FLXS now has the slinger (which didn’t help) and the vent. So far the fluid is staying where it belongs. All free of charge. Thx Doc and thx Harley D!
Boas Doc, se a Harley Davidson tem este Problema desde pelo menos 2017 até 2020 , a nível mundial deve ser milhares de motos com este problema, as motos ao sair de fabrica já deveria trazer este problema já resolvido ou chamar os clientes as concessionárias para resolver na hora, com isto tudo faz com que os clientes H D pensem duas vezes antes de comprar outra H D .
Cumprimentos.
Thank Doc you are the best . Keep it coming.
Stupid question but when changing oil, pull the plug first and then filter when it's about done draining? The reason I ask is because the last video focused on the oil filter and not drain plug.
One of our very early video (7years ago) focused on the drain plug. Personally I have always unscrewed the drain plug first….Doc
@@LowCountryHarleyDavidson TY good sir
Too bad it didn't work either. Why dont they just use a thinker shaft/rod?
I really enjoy my 88 carb'ed Twin cam ... just so many less issues.
Good video but 12 bikes out of our 22 bike group had the problem my 19 RK empty the transmission every 500 miles so did 2 others Harley install the vent tubes in them so far it has solved the problem
I'm having this same problem but with a Fat Boy 2008 engine. Twin can 96B. Would you have any suggestions in this case? Thank you very much.
This would be rare....Documantation is the first step...take notes of oil in each for three oil changes...must be done straight up on level platform. Is your bike stock? Has it been lowered in the back only? Having the bike angled to the rear can sometimes gather Trans fluid at the main shaft. Then while the bike is on the jiffy stand oil flows through the main shaft to Primary....Doc
All original suspension and angles bicycle. I made these notes transfers an average of 400ml of oil from the gearbox to the primary. The bike is used for a short period of time. This problem I noticed after replacing the basket hub and compensator for an eliminator. Oil transfers through the clutch actuation rod. A mechanic made a breather in the primary, solved the transfer but through this breather now leaks oil from the primary. Could any solutions adopted in M8 serve for M6? For example kit 36300028 or a larger diameter shaft.
I was unaware of the situation. At 5000 miles when changing fluids I noticed almost no oil in the transmission and it was in the primary. I vented the primary case. Problem solved.
So your note in the video stated that 2020 touring models had the kit installed as a preventative concern. I have a 2019 Street Glide special (114ci). I am about ready to take it in for its 1000 mile service. Should inquire about the kit to have it installed?
No, not everyone has the issue. Your dealer will advise you if you need it or not.
Kind of funny when Harley has a small issue to a few products, everyone is up in arms about it. Saying Harley’s are junk and unreliable. Tesla has all kinds of issues and are leaving people stranded without a vehicle and a huge car payment. But people give them a pass and even defend them. Lol
Although rare, is this oil transfer issue only associated with H-D Touring models?
Yes.
great explanation. now I finally understand. on many of the group discussions it is so confusing. people need to understand that this happens to cars too uggggh. they are so complex anymore there is bound to be something. that is why we have warranty. and I wonder too those who are blowing out their engines to larger displacement contribute to this issue.
What's the difference between sumping and oil transfer? I had to get a new motor because of sumping.
I have a 2017 M8 Road Glide with 14K miles and I DO NOT HAVE THIS ISSUE. This is my daily rider no issues
HD installed the vent on my 2019 Ultra at 2900 miles. it slowed it down but never fixed it. At 38K miles it moves enough fluid in just a few thousand miles to reduce the friction zone in the clutch pack. Second time back they simply adjusted the fluids and told me it was the Flo-Moto lever causing the reduction in the friction zone, even though it only happens when the trans is low and the primary is over full, SMH. And even though I've been changing out both fluids every 5K, with my 5k service due to wanting to keep the bike for 150K. If i had waited to change out those fluids at 20K, like the manual says, there wouldn't be any room left in the primary, nor any friction zone, LOL
Loss of friction zone is a safety problem, so its in a lemon law case at the moment. If they can't fix it, ask for a buy back!!
Do you really want to play that card? …Doc
@@LowCountryHarleyDavidson absolutely, interesting question, why wouldn’t a buyer ask for their money back when the motor Corp can’t fix a defect?
@@LowCountryHarleyDavidson crickets?…..spoken like a true corporate stooge
This all got started when HD moved the throw out bearing to the pressure plate. I see a lot of bikes with the transfer problem and there is a fix that moves the throw out bearing back to the side cover side. It works and no more worries.
Always a big help Doc! Thank you for all you do!
I've seen this in my 2017 FLHP with an M8. My dealer is aware and we are following the process outlined in your video. This video is the best explanation yet of the problem. Thanks for the info and you get a new subscriber.
Doc fantastic video!! It's great to have someone explain that's knowledgeable, and doesn't treat the student like a fool.
Racing and wrenching for more than 50 years. Well not racing anymore!! Lol
Thanks again Tom
hey doc, should i worry or not - i know the sportster is different set up but just makin sure bro about this oil transfer video
Dale Masyk doesn’t apply, unless your sporty has a M8 lol
Great video, well explained! I don’t know how true it is, but I know a guy that had the issue on his ‘19 SG and said the first sign for him was difficulty shifting gears (likely due to low transmission oil). I assume you wouldn’t notice though unless you lost enough transmission oil over into the primary.
Thanks u said it great
Thank you. I was one of the unlucky ones with the oil transfer issue on my 2017 M8 Street glide. The local dealers went through the appropriate steps outlined for them from Harley (Milwaukee). The first attempt was the "deflector" as you described and clearly showed in the video and then finally the vent tube when the deflector didn't work. FYI, the transfer would happen within the first 1000 miles after the levels were set and checked in the transmission. All is good now. Thanks again.
My 2019 RKS had this issue and my Harley dealer installed the breather tube free of charge to me. Thanks for the detailed explanation!!