Women who can't get pregnant are still assumed to be able to do so, as a teen you usually don't plan to have kids anyway so you're treated as if you still can.
And you live with that fear. I am 34 years old and I still don’t know if am capable of becoming pregnant. I haven’t taken the risk of becoming pregnant for more than 5 years but that was something that scared me to the point that I prefered to be death before being pregnant.
This person thinks that a fictional story is the same as real life and therein lies the problem. The perspective itself is evidence of the lack of empathy and understanding of what the life of a girl and woman is. It’s classic “you don’t know what you don’t know.”
@@connor5669 I’m saying he doesn’t know what he’s talking about because he knows nothing about out being raised female. If you think there’s nothing to that, then you don’t know either.
@@Reet64 I know very well about that. And I'm sure she does too. Do you think trans women are stupid? Do you think we do not recognize sexism from a very early age? Please.
Both boys and girls can recognize and experience sexisim from a young age. That does not mean they can understand the material reality of being the opposite sex.
For someone who grew up with a very naive and basic idea of what sex (the physical act) was, I knew right around puberty what made me uncomfortable. It was lingering looks or staring by men. It felt uncomfortable, it felt disturbing, it felt dangerous. There was no cognitive recognition that I could become pregnant. It was an innate understanding that I needed to be somewhere else or avoid that person. This sense developed over time, along with the understanding that the danger included r* and pregnancy. I think the naivety is also what makes girls and boys in early puberty so susceptible to grooming and pedophilia.
Naivety makes one susceptI blew out grooming which teaches children to ignore their own instincts regarding sexual advances and exposure to sexualized imagery by adults.
I don't understand why transwomen can't embrace that they're not the same thing as ciswomen. I swear, activists caused this ruminating, because I don't remember any transwomen talking this way before 2015...
so should i embrace being treated as a dangerous monster worse than a bear, and a scapegoat for male violence? no i don't want to be associated with that
I realised recently that, according to trans activists, transphobia would be the first kind of discrimination where it actively matters how the victim identifies. Consider the following situations: Situation 1: A bigoted person sees a MtF person in a dress and thinks "ew, that's a man in a dress". Situation 2: A bigoted person sees a GNC man in a dress and thinks "ew, that’s a man in a dress". In both situations the reaction is the same, the bigot has the same thought ect and yet trans activists would have us think of these two situations differently, one as transphobia and one as a dislike for gender nonconforming cis men. Obviously in practical reality, both those situations are the same. It leads me to think that it's all a bit farcical we are supposed to view them differently based on the internal beliefs of the victim.
Maybe, if you don't want to be a bigot, just think, "Cute dress" and be done with it. Of course if bigotry is your thing, feel free to start with "Ew".
@@FaerieQueenCaelia if a man in a dress is in the same changeroom as a girl child then the "ew" response has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with them experiencing a rational fear response.
@@FaerieQueenCaelia You don't tell people what to think, the man in a dress will always look like a man in a dress. That said, I'd put a bf in a maid costume, but the second that man think he is an actual maid or girl, he is out. Femboys are cool, being delusional and invading female spaces is ew
I witnessed the gutting pain of women not being able to get pregnant (or having losses) in my therapy infertility internship. I get so angry when I hear some transwomen equate THAT horrifying pain (emotional, physical, psychological, existential, financial, social) with a guy whose only decision is to store sperm for a later day. (I do feel so sad for people like Blaire White, who didn't have the wherewithal to store sperm before HRT....and it would be a living hell to get off of that long enough to MAYBE, but maybe not, be able to create sperm.) Being trans is more like being an immigrant - you can work hard to blend, you can chose to stand out, or you can be stuck standing out, hoping people are polite and don't bring up your differences. But your origin story belongs in another place, with another group of people.
It should be OK to different origin story! Until some of the transwomen and transmen come to understand that--truly internalize that--they will never find peace.
We're dealing with not standing out in ways that are dangerous. All transwomen I've seen so far take up physical space in ways that women are socialised not to. There is a lot of danger to navigate from ostracism and violence to simply the male sexual gaze. It is hard for women to be outspoken due to being doubted their whole lives. Transwomen's physical and vocal confidence can appear very male to women.
FANTASTIC VIDEO, Ray. Bravo! One point, though: being a mother doesn't just mean "carrying the child in your body for 9 months" like you say towards the end. Pregnant women actually grow/gestate the embryos/fetuses inside us. We do a lot more than just "carry" them. I believe the "carry" nomenclature was devised by men to miminize & obscure the reality of how much women contribute to the growth & development of human offspring during pregnancy. And to minimize & obscure what growing a new human being takes out of us.
Le Deuxieme Sexe by Simone de Beauvoir talks at great length about how taxing pregnancy is on the female body. It's quite an amazing book for it's time. It's a consideration that most men cannot fathom which I suppose is why it had to be written by a woman. There is a specific endocrinological pathway that disrupts a woman's fertility if her body is not replete enough to support the growth of a baby.
"I can almost guarantee there's going to be some transwoman in my comments sections saying... *Commence Earthy Bass Voice* WELL NOT ALL CIS WOMEN..." 😂
Thank god for this video. Unfairness is in your face as a little girl and hitting my teens was a shocking process of disempowerment and finding out I was prey, ranked by looks and always second. I have not met a trans person or man who understands what it felt like, only biological women so far.
It’s been shown that parents are physically rougher and more emotionally neglectful with sons than with daughters, even during infancy (even though male babies are emotionally needier). And they have more conversations and longer conversations with daughters. And their conversations with daughters revolve mostly around emotions and observations about social interactions with others. (It’s been shown that the way women converse is different when just one man is present than when they’re amongst themselves only. Whereas, men don’t change how they interact with women present.) They also expose their sons and daughters to different sports and activities. And they teach them different skills. (My mother had two caregivers who are trans women and she’s frustrated that they both haven’t the faintest clue how to properly house clean. She believes this is due to their male socialization.) I’ve also noticed that the more AGP type trans women are super neglectful of their appearance (hair is often unkempt and makeup is done poorly and they have very limited number of clothes.) This is in addition to the fact EVERY SINGLE female (of all personality traits and backgrounds) always has in the back of her mind the awareness they could be SA’d while they are around males within any context. Yes, many trans women may develop a similar awareness as they portray themselves as more female, but they didn’t have this at the point at which they decided they must be female. So, they’re not basing their rationale that they’re female on how they’ve been socialized. (Yes, gay males are much more likely than straight males to be SA’d but they’re not socialized to be as aware of that in as many contexts as females, because that risk isn’t as likely in as many contexts as females. Plus, gay males aren’t usually socialized by their parents or society to expect being SA’d.) And females are socialized to be unselfishly giving and nurturing in a motherly sense (which evolutionarily goes back to physically nursing babies and raising children while the men are off hunting).
“A new study by Stanford Medicine investigators unveils a new artificial intelligence model that was more than 90% successful at determining whether scans of brain activity came from a woman or a man.”
@@BillPhlorgian Stanford! An incredibly easy google! “A key motivation for this study is that sex plays a crucial role in human brain development, in aging, and in the manifestation of psychiatric and neurological disorders,” said Vinod Menon, PhD, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and director of the Stanford Cognitive and Systems Neuroscience Laboratory. “Identifying consistent and replicable sex differences in the healthy adult brain is a critical step toward a deeper understanding of sex-specific vulnerabilities in psychiatric and neurological disorders.” Menon is the study’s senior author. The lead authors are senior research scientist Srikanth Ryali, PhD, and academic staff researcher Yuan Zhang, PhD.
@@BillPhlorgian “A key motivation for this study is that sex plays a crucial role in human brain development, in aging, and in the manifestation of psychiatric and neurological disorders,” said Vinod Menon, PhD, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and director of the Stanford Cognitive and Systems Neuroscience Laboratory. “Identifying consistent and replicable sex differences in the healthy adult brain is a critical step toward a deeper understanding of sex-specific vulnerabilities in psychiatric and neurological disorders.” Menon is the study’s senior author. The lead authors are senior research scientist Srikanth Ryali, PhD, and academic staff researcher Yuan Zhang, PhD.
Hello. I would like to present you with an argument that will help you communicate your point. Have you ever read the Jungle Book? While Mogli spent time with many different animal communities. He adopted many different behaviors and personality traits. While he walked and talked like a monkey... he was still just a boy and grew up to be a man who got married to a woman.
This is a great analogy, I love it. I am a native speaker of English who has learned other languages. Because I have a keen ear for language and accent I can pass myself off as Spanish or French. I love being able to "pass" but I know I am not really Spanish or French and am even more delighted to be able to say, "No, I am actually British". I don't switch to deceive and I see it as a talent for communication. I have no idea what it is to be Spanish or French because I am not, like Mowgli who always knew he was a boy.
@@xxCrapNamexx youre right. But it was inspired by "wolf boy" stories where children were raised by animals only to be rescued years later. The children were all feral and acted like wolves. But they were children clearly. this phenomena is why Natives were not given human rights until only 200 years ago. My self a native, we were not considered human. Just human appearing animals. And so we became glamorous pets for some time. You could even teach us cool tricks and to speak english!
I just think... Is it controversial? The languages women use with each other extend far beyond the words they say. There's a dialogue [constantly] being held which can't be deciphered simply through analysis of facial expression, body language, tone, word choice. It's not like all women are as fluent, but it's established early on in life and pervades everything. It's easy to tell who speaks it; they're either online or dead to it. *watching past **00:13** now*
I like the beard man, great work today sometimes i disagree. I think most trans activists know these days that all their "science" is simply activism they know pretty well.
The idea that biological difference are the "cause" of differences in socialization is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It almost naturalizes sexism.
@@RayAlexWilliams I am a trans girl and I've never denied the biological reality, I'm also right-wing and gender critical. But, my biological reality have like... zero impact on my social life today.
@@RayAlexWilliams I'm not in denial of biology. I'm denying that the root of misogyny is purely biological. It's an antisociological explanation. A very weak hypothesis designed to exclude trans women. An actual examination of the material differences between cis women and men reveals that trans women are treated much closer to women than men. Your ideas cannot explain this
@@RayAlexWilliams Deny biological reality? I do no such thing. Socialization is far more complicated than biological differences. It's reflective of a broader ideology about men and women that cannot be reduced to mere biology. I think you're oversimplifying because it benefits your perspective
Is it really all socialization, or is it that males and females have some immutable nature that doesn't rub off from a transition. Transwomen always feel more male than women do.
Even if it were possible to be 100% passable, unless you were socialized as the opposite gender you will always read 'off' to those around you. "That girl is weird and kind of creepy" or "that guy is really girly. He says he's straight but, I dunno man..."
No one sees you as the sex you try to mimic.@@Oendikla, we all know, especially the women. If we don't clock you the moment we lay eyes on you, you will forever give off the "uncanny valley" until we realize what you are. The fact you think you pass is the delulu all trans have. You don't pass.
It's not just that, it's the fact that AGPs/AAPs are not truly gender atypical. Of course a straight man/woman is likely to come across as masculine/girly even if they medically transition and physically pass. They have brains typical of their own sex.
I enjoy your videos! They are very informative. I wonder though, why RUclipsrs keep calling them “trans women” when discussing, that they will never become real women? I would chose title: Transgender Talks Female Socialization.
I know you tried to do the Robert Sapolksy video and couldn’t finish because it was aggravating… but I would love to see you give it another shot. It is one of the most shared videos in trans circles.
yes the "they are bad because of male socialization" was the main anti-trans feminist argument 10+ years ago. but when some parents took that seriously they had to move the goalpost. now it's just chomosome-based original sin
Even though I went through female puberty, I don’t think I experienced typical female socialization because of my autism and gender non conformity. I don’t like the feeling of being treated like an “other.” I still feel that I am instinctively and subconsciously influenced by my biology. I’m very selective about who I decide to invest my energy and resources into (even if just as friends and doesn’t result in getting pregnant). I’ve also never had a boyfriend before because I haven’t met a guy worth my resources. This is also probably influenced by the fact that I haven’t met a lot of genuinely good people in my life, I’m on the asexual spectrum, I’m autistic, and men are generally not sexually attracted to me (or at least they don’t express it).
No dysphoria at all! I quite like how I look with facial hair. I just also like a clean shave for when I feel like putting on makeup. I go back and forth depending on my mood but definitely don't dislike my facial hair.
I discovered your channel and I would find it interesting to have a discussion with you (or with anyone who wants to have it). I am a trans girl and I am 100% convinced that I do not have AGP, this is because I have NEVER been sexually aroused by anything related to my transition journey. If I don't have AGP, what do you think could be the cause of my gender dysphoria? Or, what do you think in general about what I wrote?
"Socialization" is a very big topic with many, many factors to consider. I think you and the transwoman you were reviewing were not agreeing on which aspects of "socialization" that were important to discuss. It is difficult to introduce broad generalizations here unless your terms are defined more stringently. I think you were confusing "socialization," self-concept, and narrative identity a little. I couldn't help to think about my own edge case a little, precisely because of the socialization issue. My mother's borderline personality disorder motivated her to treat me and my sister as simple extensions of herself. This happens because of the unstable, or even nearly non-existent self-identity my mother had, or any BPD sufferer has. When someone a BPD person is dependent on does something to satisfy their own needs, the BPD sufferer might treat that action as a betrayal of their own self to fulfill THEIR needs. This can be both frustrating and infuriating. Yes, it looks a lot like narcissism in that it is all about them. My mother treated me and my sister precisely as she would treat herself. This sounds lovely from a Christian Golden Rule perspective, but it isn't. This thwarts a child's normal personal identity development. I can completely see why boys of BPD mothers are at high risk for gender identity problems. Regardless, there were certain aspects of "socialization" applied to me which my mother would apply to any girl, specifically, herself because there was no difference between her, me, and my sister in her mind's eye. Was this failure to differentiate complete? Was my mother completely delusional? No. Not that bad. However, there was a significant enough overlap between how I should have been treated as a boy, various aspects of "socialization", and how I was actually treated. Yes, that introduced confusion. What does my experience mean for "socialization?" There are some aspects of socialization for which I was affected, and many more that I was not by. The formative socialization experiences you mentioned Ray, I was NOT affected by. Also, after being taught how to socialize with boys by therapists, I managed to have male friends in high school, and only male friends since I was discouraged from keeping female friends at all. That had its effects on me, too. Any transwoman who had primarily male friends in high school will have the memories of formative male-male socialization experiences. I may have been a fish out of water, but still, this was important. I bonded with these boys--now men--and formed relationships that have lasted our lifetimes. This contrasts with gal friends from high school who bonded closely with other girls and have life-long relationships with them that I was excluded from back then both by their choice (girls only) and by mine (doing as told and avoiding much contact with girls). When things got weird after the epilepsy intensification and my life was in review once more, those old relationships I had with those boys, who are still close friends, ended up a very important factor in my motivation to attempt detransition. This is an entire conversation to have unto itself. This part of socialization--the relationship bonding process--is very important. I know some people with intersex conditions whose parents also helped them socialize as boys. When these intersex people found themselves recalibrating their social gender position once more in their later adult years, the male bonds they made as teens became an important factor to consider for them as well. That said, if some modern transwomen transition as teens and form lifelong bonds with girls, I think we should consider how this will affect these young transwomen for the rest of their lives, which would probably strengthen their self-concept as transwomen rather than weaken it, as it did for me and the intersex people that I mentioned. I often think about the counter-factual question, "What if my mother didn't send me to therapy for my effeminate behavior?" What if I was never ordered to give up my gal friends? Would I have ever felt the need to detransition at a time later in life when I had to rebuild my sense of self after reviewing my life's history? Is becoming a mother the same as being "socialized" as a mother? Are sex-based differences in psychology the same as being "socialized" as a specific gender? We must also be careful to distinguish the difference between socialization and the impact of innate differences. I mean to get across that the concept of "socialization" is a very broad concept with many, MANY facets, even in terms of gendered socialization. It seems that your discussion, AS WELL as the discussion of socialization given by the transwoman you were reviewing, was probably too broad, or at least not well enough defined, to be meaningful. If you wish to revisit the socialization problem, you may wish to be more specific in the future about which aspects of socialization you are discussing. Learn to define your aspects precisely. This would be a multi-episode discussion.
@@BillPhlorgian long comment, but worth the read for sure. I wanna add that, as a trans woman, I missed out on some of the male socialization you mention. I felt a critical disconnect from boys. I didn't resonate with them at some level The social narratives that we experience are internalized in all sorts of ways. And I think it's reasonable to expect the socialization of trans girls to be something more complicated than "male." I always felt more comfortable being friends with women, even though I embraced some aspect masculinity. In retrospect, "tomboy" felt much more accurate to my experiences than "male." And today I'm an androgynous woman, which isn't out of place in the rock climbing gym.
@@connor5669 I tell people I was sent to "how to be a boy" school! My late grade school therapy mostly consisted of group therapy which taught me how to socialize with boys without things getting weird, er, TOO weird. I got along just enough to bond with an "outsider" clique who tolerated me because I was an outsider just like them. The point to remember, that the FULL socialization experience among girls is fundamentally different than whatever variant you or I experienced. As Ray is trying to point out there, some social aspects BETWEEN girls and between girls and mothers are driven by biology. No matter what kind of affiliation we had with girls and women, we were never and never will be REALLY in their club. You know what I mean? I still pass "too" well as a woman. (My innate hormonal pathologies brought me to this point.) If women I am talking with don't know about my past, they will treat me as another woman. However, even then, *I* know the difference. There are things I avoid discussing because to discuss them as if I were just another woman would be to lie, and I don't want to lie. So, I avoid. This affects socialization. It can never be the same. I can be sad about it, which I was most of my life, or like I am now fully accepting that I have a different experience than men or women and that is OK. We should never compare our socialization to that of women, or men if we transition young, but accept that we have our own unique socialization dynamics and that is OK. BTW, once I got to college, I "took the breaks off" and primarily socialized with women once again. That is actually how I built my pre-transition career, through networking with women while in college. (Old girl's network.) It was far, far too easy as an adult to be seen as "one of the girls" (explicitly mentioned multiple times) pre-transition, but STILL I wasn't. Not really. I translated that to mean that there was more "evidence" I should have been a woman and should live as one. If you can't beat them, join them? My socialization problems haunted me again when I attempted to detransition. After all this time, I seem even more "hardened" in my socialization dynamics than I was pre-transition in my 20s. The dynamics of my youth were such that, even though dressed as a man, with the hair cut or whatever, if I wasn't constantly watching how I was acting, I could easily be mistaken as a lesbian by strangers. Part of that was looks, but a lot of it was just raw behavior. What does that mean for "socialization" and Ray's argument? Now, the problem is even worse given my age. After a year and a half of trying, I am thinking that it is just too damned hard for me to convince people I am a man. I ask why when, in my mind's eye, I look masculine enough, but like a lot of FTMs, people tell me, "It's the 'whole package.' You are just not convincing." What do I do with that? Again, what does that mean for Ray's argument?
@@BillPhlorgian I think being socialized trans is an experience of it's own. And any attempt to weaponize socialization to invalidate trans women will necessarily erase the complexities of our lives. The same is true for other marginalized people. Black girls are socialized differently than white ones, for example. These differences are often erased to give anti trans viewpoints more coherence than they really possess. Imo
Isn't that absurd though? A woman can't get pregnant by accident. It is only through acquiescing to the demand for penetrative sex that it can happen, and it turns out that most women can orgasm just fine without penetrative sex. So it's not the fear of getting pregnant that is the problem, it's the fear of refusing a male's demand for penetrative sex without protection. Making women feel guilty for their concerns has been the modus operandi of the patriarchy for centuries, why are we still doing this?
This is a question, not an argument...what is autogynaphilias response to males identifying as females from a very early age? Before a child has a sexual desire. Is it still autogynephilia?
Anne Lawrence talks about this in her book Men Trapped in Men's Bodies. Basically, you know how little boys can have emotional crushes on girls prior to going to puberty or even really having any awarenss of themselves? Lawrence argues this is evidence of the fact that our sexual orientations don't suddenly spring into existence out of thin air when we hit puberty but manifest in behaviors earlier in childhood; the difference is that the behaviors don't have an explicitly erotic dimension until puberty.
This makes a lot of sense then. Thank you. I really appreciate your videos. They have allowed me to really embrace a lifestyle I'm comfortable with. I couldn't get behind the "trans" logic. It just didn't make sense to me. No matter how many ways I tried to intellectualize it, I never felt like a real woman. I am much more comfortable with saying I am a man with autogynephilia. That makes sense to me and brings me peace. It sucks. But I can work with that. So thank you. I love your videos!
Are you talking about very feminine boys who grow up to be feminine homosexuals if they don't transition? Those are not AGP. Young AGPs may secretly wish they were girls now and then, maybe secretly cross-dress, but they do not identify as girls and display female-like behaviour from age 3-4 like future HSTS.
Yes, but they related to as future nurturers whether or not they go on to have children. Given dolls, more likely to do baby sitting and generally expected to keep people happy.
I lived as a man from ages 14-28. I have way more social experience as a man than as a woman, having only lived as a woman for just over a year. Why would you deny that a lot of transpeople have experienced both genders socially? That seems self-evident and the only exception are transpeople who don't pass.
It's hard to tell what's more offensive here, a male explaining female socialization in terms of their sexual-biology, "OMG we have uteruses, so all our behavior is centered around making sure we don't accidentally get pregnant", I can't quite believe someone can be that sexist in this day and age. On the other hand, we have the total lack of understanding about what socialization entails, a Google Scholar search for the term resocialization generates 41k results. "Resocialization is a process of identity transformation in which people are called upon to learn new roles, while unlearning some aspects of their old ones."
Eggs are not costly to make; they just appear every month. Men invest more in the family because they have to put their life on the line to defend not only women but most of the rest of society in war. You've spoken like a keyboard warrior in a time of peace. You take for granted the sacrifices other men have made because of the era and geographic location we live in since by and large we are at peace with no conscription notice. It also shows your cavalier attitude in discounting a man's role.
Literally all I did was defend the most fundamental basic findings of evolutionary psychology. If you have a problem with the parental investment hypothesis, take it up with evolutionary theory. What I am talking about applies across the entire animal kingdom.
@@RayAlexWilliamsif you're a realist we don't use wrong sex pronouns either...even if some consider it polite....it's part of what got us here in the first place
Women who can't get pregnant are still assumed to be able to do so, as a teen you usually don't plan to have kids anyway so you're treated as if you still can.
And you live with that fear. I am 34 years old and I still don’t know if am capable of becoming pregnant. I haven’t taken the risk of becoming pregnant for more than 5 years but that was something that scared me to the point that I prefered to be death before being pregnant.
This person thinks that a fictional story is the same as real life and therein lies the problem. The perspective itself is evidence of the lack of empathy and understanding of what the life of a girl and woman is. It’s classic “you don’t know what you don’t know.”
Do you have that empathy and understand for trans experiences of childhood? (You don't and never will)
@@connor5669 I’m saying he doesn’t know what he’s talking about because he knows nothing about out being raised female. If you think there’s nothing to that, then you don’t know either.
@@Reet64 I know very well about that. And I'm sure she does too. Do you think trans women are stupid? Do you think we do not recognize sexism from a very early age? Please.
@@connor5669 "Trans women" are male. The opposite of female.
Both boys and girls can recognize and experience sexisim from a young age. That does not mean they can understand the material reality of being the opposite sex.
For someone who grew up with a very naive and basic idea of what sex (the physical act) was, I knew right around puberty what made me uncomfortable. It was lingering looks or staring by men. It felt uncomfortable, it felt disturbing, it felt dangerous. There was no cognitive recognition that I could become pregnant. It was an innate understanding that I needed to be somewhere else or avoid that person. This sense developed over time, along with the understanding that the danger included r* and pregnancy. I think the naivety is also what makes girls and boys in early puberty so susceptible to grooming and pedophilia.
Naivety makes one susceptI blew out grooming which teaches children to ignore their own instincts regarding sexual advances and exposure to sexualized imagery by adults.
As a gay male, I feared being SA'd. However I wouldn't have to carry a poopie for 9 months and watch it come to life.
I don't understand why transwomen can't embrace that they're not the same thing as ciswomen. I swear, activists caused this ruminating, because I don't remember any transwomen talking this way before 2015...
so should i embrace being treated as a dangerous monster worse than a bear, and a scapegoat for male violence? no i don't want to be associated with that
@@Oendikla huh?
@@Oendikla is all your real life experience from social media and TikTok?
@@Oendikla regardless to what you WANT.. you are male .. that's just the bottom line.
@@Oendikla bears aren’t monsters. You’re too hard on bears.
I realised recently that, according to trans activists, transphobia would be the first kind of discrimination where it actively matters how the victim identifies.
Consider the following situations:
Situation 1: A bigoted person sees a MtF person in a dress and thinks "ew, that's a man in a dress".
Situation 2: A bigoted person sees a GNC man in a dress and thinks "ew, that’s a man in a dress".
In both situations the reaction is the same, the bigot has the same thought ect and yet trans activists would have us think of these two situations differently, one as transphobia and one as a dislike for gender nonconforming cis men.
Obviously in practical reality, both those situations are the same. It leads me to think that it's all a bit farcical we are supposed to view them differently based on the internal beliefs of the victim.
Lol.
Maybe, if you don't want to be a bigot, just think, "Cute dress" and be done with it. Of course if bigotry is your thing, feel free to start with "Ew".
@@FaerieQueenCaelia if a man in a dress is in the same changeroom as a girl child then the "ew" response has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with them experiencing a rational fear response.
@@FaerieQueenCaelia You don't tell people what to think, the man in a dress will always look like a man in a dress. That said, I'd put a bf in a maid costume, but the second that man think he is an actual maid or girl, he is out. Femboys are cool, being delusional and invading female spaces is ew
I witnessed the gutting pain of women not being able to get pregnant (or having losses) in my therapy infertility internship. I get so angry when I hear some transwomen equate THAT horrifying pain (emotional, physical, psychological, existential, financial, social) with a guy whose only decision is to store sperm for a later day. (I do feel so sad for people like Blaire White, who didn't have the wherewithal to store sperm before HRT....and it would be a living hell to get off of that long enough to MAYBE, but maybe not, be able to create sperm.) Being trans is more like being an immigrant - you can work hard to blend, you can chose to stand out, or you can be stuck standing out, hoping people are polite and don't bring up your differences. But your origin story belongs in another place, with another group of people.
It should be OK to different origin story! Until some of the transwomen and transmen come to understand that--truly internalize that--they will never find peace.
I equate being trans to being a tourist in a country you will never be a citizen of. You can live there, but you will never be one of them.
We're dealing with not standing out in ways that are dangerous. All transwomen I've seen so far take up physical space in ways that women are socialised not to. There is a lot of danger to navigate from ostracism and violence to simply the male sexual gaze. It is hard for women to be outspoken due to being doubted their whole lives. Transwomen's physical and vocal confidence can appear very male to women.
FANTASTIC VIDEO, Ray. Bravo!
One point, though: being a mother doesn't just mean "carrying the child in your body for 9 months" like you say towards the end. Pregnant women actually grow/gestate the embryos/fetuses inside us. We do a lot more than just "carry" them.
I believe the "carry" nomenclature was devised by men to miminize & obscure the reality of how much women contribute to the growth & development of human offspring during pregnancy. And to minimize & obscure what growing a new human being takes out of us.
Good point! I hadn’t considered the implications of that nomenclature but you’re totally right.
Le Deuxieme Sexe by Simone de Beauvoir talks at great length about how taxing pregnancy is on the female body. It's quite an amazing book for it's time. It's a consideration that most men cannot fathom which I suppose is why it had to be written by a woman. There is a specific endocrinological pathway that disrupts a woman's fertility if her body is not replete enough to support the growth of a baby.
"I can almost guarantee there's going to be some transwoman in my comments sections saying...
*Commence Earthy Bass Voice*
WELL NOT ALL CIS WOMEN..." 😂
Teenage boys teach each other how to do stunts on their bmxs. Teenage girls teach each other how to be safe.
They are not remotely similar
Great analogy.
Teenage girls bully each other into eating disorders over superficial nonsense…
Some things are similar, some are different. Also, there's huge variation within sex groups.
Honestly not sure which group you're more ignorant of.
@@Rainsoakedcoat you're entitled to your opinion
Thank god for this video. Unfairness is in your face as a little girl and hitting my teens was a shocking process of disempowerment and finding out I was prey, ranked by looks and always second. I have not met a trans person or man who understands what it felt like, only biological women so far.
It’s been shown that parents are physically rougher and more emotionally neglectful with sons than with daughters, even during infancy (even though male babies are emotionally needier). And they have more conversations and longer conversations with daughters. And their conversations with daughters revolve mostly around emotions and observations about social interactions with others. (It’s been shown that the way women converse is different when just one man is present than when they’re amongst themselves only. Whereas, men don’t change how they interact with women present.) They also expose their sons and daughters to different sports and activities. And they teach them different skills. (My mother had two caregivers who are trans women and she’s frustrated that they both haven’t the faintest clue how to properly house clean. She believes this is due to their male socialization.) I’ve also noticed that the more AGP type trans women are super neglectful of their appearance (hair is often unkempt and makeup is done poorly and they have very limited number of clothes.) This is in addition to the fact EVERY SINGLE female (of all personality traits and backgrounds) always has in the back of her mind the awareness they could be SA’d while they are around males within any context. Yes, many trans women may develop a similar awareness as they portray themselves as more female, but they didn’t have this at the point at which they decided they must be female. So, they’re not basing their rationale that they’re female on how they’ve been socialized. (Yes, gay males are much more likely than straight males to be SA’d but they’re not socialized to be as aware of that in as many contexts as females, because that risk isn’t as likely in as many contexts as females. Plus, gay males aren’t usually socialized by their parents or society to expect being SA’d.) And females are socialized to be unselfishly giving and nurturing in a motherly sense (which evolutionarily goes back to physically nursing babies and raising children while the men are off hunting).
“A new study by Stanford Medicine investigators unveils a new artificial intelligence model that was more than 90% successful at determining whether scans of brain activity came from a woman or a man.”
Oh? Interesting. Link?
@@BillPhlorgian google -links are deleted
@@juneelle370 bummer! Who are the scientists on the paper? What is the title?
@@BillPhlorgian Stanford! An incredibly easy google!
“A key motivation for this study is that sex plays a crucial role in human brain development, in aging, and in the manifestation of psychiatric and neurological disorders,” said Vinod Menon, PhD, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and director of the Stanford Cognitive and Systems Neuroscience Laboratory. “Identifying consistent and replicable sex differences in the healthy adult brain is a critical step toward a deeper understanding of sex-specific vulnerabilities in psychiatric and neurological disorders.”
Menon is the study’s senior author. The lead authors are senior research scientist Srikanth Ryali, PhD, and academic staff researcher Yuan Zhang, PhD.
@@BillPhlorgian “A key motivation for this study is that sex plays a crucial role in human brain development, in aging, and in the manifestation of psychiatric and neurological disorders,” said Vinod Menon, PhD, professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences and director of the Stanford Cognitive and Systems Neuroscience Laboratory. “Identifying consistent and replicable sex differences in the healthy adult brain is a critical step toward a deeper understanding of sex-specific vulnerabilities in psychiatric and neurological disorders.”
Menon is the study’s senior author. The lead authors are senior research scientist Srikanth Ryali, PhD, and academic staff researcher Yuan Zhang, PhD.
Hello. I would like to present you with an argument that will help you communicate your point.
Have you ever read the Jungle Book? While Mogli spent time with many different animal communities. He adopted many different behaviors and personality traits. While he walked and talked like a monkey... he was still just a boy and grew up to be a man who got married to a woman.
[*Therian tears*]
This is a great analogy, I love it. I am a native speaker of English who has learned other languages. Because I have a keen ear for language and accent I can pass myself off as Spanish or French. I love being able to "pass" but I know I am not really Spanish or French and am even more delighted to be able to say, "No, I am actually British". I don't switch to deceive and I see it as a talent for communication. I have no idea what it is to be Spanish or French because I am not, like Mowgli who always knew he was a boy.
@@UltraviolentPanda that reply made my whole day, lol. thank you
The junglebook is about immigration and race mixing tho.
@@xxCrapNamexx youre right. But it was inspired by "wolf boy" stories where children were raised by animals only to be rescued years later. The children were all feral and acted like wolves. But they were children clearly.
this phenomena is why Natives were not given human rights until only 200 years ago. My self a native, we were not considered human. Just human appearing animals. And so we became glamorous pets for some time. You could even teach us cool tricks and to speak english!
I just think... Is it controversial? The languages women use with each other extend far beyond the words they say. There's a dialogue [constantly] being held which can't be deciphered simply through analysis of facial expression, body language, tone, word choice. It's not like all women are as fluent, but it's established early on in life and pervades everything. It's easy to tell who speaks it; they're either online or dead to it. *watching past **00:13** now*
I like the beard man, great work today sometimes i disagree. I think most trans activists know these days that all their "science" is simply activism they know pretty well.
Watching your videos has proven to me how for so long my logic has been warped and deluded . Thank you
The idea that biological difference are the "cause" of differences in socialization is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It almost naturalizes sexism.
not surprising a trans person such as yourself would be in denial of biological reality and how it impacts social reality.
@@RayAlexWilliams I am a trans girl and I've never denied the biological reality, I'm also right-wing and gender critical. But, my biological reality have like... zero impact on my social life today.
@@RayAlexWilliams I'm not in denial of biology.
I'm denying that the root of misogyny is purely biological. It's an antisociological explanation. A very weak hypothesis designed to exclude trans women.
An actual examination of the material differences between cis women and men reveals that trans women are treated much closer to women than men. Your ideas cannot explain this
@@RayAlexWilliams Deny biological reality? I do no such thing.
Socialization is far more complicated than biological differences. It's reflective of a broader ideology about men and women that cannot be reduced to mere biology.
I think you're oversimplifying because it benefits your perspective
@@RayAlexWilliams you sound more and more like a boomer conservative every day
Is it really all socialization, or is it that males and females have some immutable nature that doesn't rub off from a transition. Transwomen always feel more male than women do.
I'm a trans girl and I don't feel more male then other women
@@Penelope-hg4dz "other women." You aren't a woman, sir.
@@ellisdunegan I have the right to talk about myself in the way I want, so...
@Penelope-hg4dz well you wouldn't know what you don't know would you.
@@BoomerTelly your response makes no sense to me.
Even if it were possible to be 100% passable, unless you were socialized as the opposite gender you will always read 'off' to those around you. "That girl is weird and kind of creepy" or "that guy is really girly. He says he's straight but, I dunno man..."
so what? if 1% of people perceive me as a woman or at least less threatening than a man, that's still better than 0%.
No one sees you as the sex you try to mimic.@@Oendikla, we all know, especially the women. If we don't clock you the moment we lay eyes on you, you will forever give off the "uncanny valley" until we realize what you are. The fact you think you pass is the delulu all trans have. You don't pass.
It's not just that, it's the fact that AGPs/AAPs are not truly gender atypical. Of course a straight man/woman is likely to come across as masculine/girly even if they medically transition and physically pass. They have brains typical of their own sex.
May I suggest you read Janet Mock. A lot of transsexuals live their lives without ever revealing their medical history, as is their right.
Very intelligent and insightful review, thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@RayAlexWilliams it was spot on, from a female perspective… thank you for explaining it so well 💓
It’s literally never the HSTS women saying this stuff 😩
I enjoy your videos! They are very informative. I wonder though, why RUclipsrs keep calling them “trans women” when discussing, that they will never become real women? I would chose title: Transgender Talks Female Socialization.
I use transfemme.
I know you tried to do the Robert Sapolksy video and couldn’t finish because it was aggravating… but I would love to see you give it another shot. It is one of the most shared videos in trans circles.
This is exactly why there are people wanting to put kids on puberty blockers. This is why people are raising infants and toddlers “without gender”.
yes the "they are bad because of male socialization" was the main anti-trans feminist argument 10+ years ago. but when some parents took that seriously they had to move the goalpost. now it's just chomosome-based original sin
Even though I went through female puberty, I don’t think I experienced typical female socialization because of my autism and gender non conformity. I don’t like the feeling of being treated like an “other.” I still feel that I am instinctively and subconsciously influenced by my biology. I’m very selective about who I decide to invest my energy and resources into (even if just as friends and doesn’t result in getting pregnant). I’ve also never had a boyfriend before because I haven’t met a guy worth my resources. This is also probably influenced by the fact that I haven’t met a lot of genuinely good people in my life, I’m on the asexual spectrum, I’m autistic, and men are generally not sexually attracted to me (or at least they don’t express it).
I hope this doesn’t cause dysphoria, but…: the stubble is looking sexy, Ray! Damn!
No dysphoria at all! I quite like how I look with facial hair. I just also like a clean shave for when I feel like putting on makeup. I go back and forth depending on my mood but definitely don't dislike my facial hair.
Why not both?
Not so for us gays 🌈
I discovered your channel and I would find it interesting to have a discussion with you (or with anyone who wants to have it). I am a trans girl and I am 100% convinced that I do not have AGP, this is because I have NEVER been sexually aroused by anything related to my transition journey. If I don't have AGP, what do you think could be the cause of my gender dysphoria? Or, what do you think in general about what I wrote?
Are you attracted to women or men? Apparently another common cause is internalized homophobia or experiencing child SA.
@@gypsylee333 both
@@gypsylee333 and, luckily, I had a great childhood without any kind of sexual abuse
@@Penelope-hg4dz how old are you? Do you have autism?
@@gypsylee333 I'm 19, I don't have autism
You may not take this as a compliment, since I know you enjoy being gender non-conforming, but here goes...
You look handsome in this video.
Thanks! Just because I occasionally like to genderbend does not mean I don't also enjoy a more masculine presentation as well! I like both!
ruclips.net/video/3HjhLRyCoBA/видео.html reminded me of this when that tim started speaking in metaphors of 'character development' lol
"Socialization" is a very big topic with many, many factors to consider. I think you and the transwoman you were reviewing were not agreeing on which aspects of "socialization" that were important to discuss. It is difficult to introduce broad generalizations here unless your terms are defined more stringently. I think you were confusing "socialization," self-concept, and narrative identity a little.
I couldn't help to think about my own edge case a little, precisely because of the socialization issue. My mother's borderline personality disorder motivated her to treat me and my sister as simple extensions of herself. This happens because of the unstable, or even nearly non-existent self-identity my mother had, or any BPD sufferer has. When someone a BPD person is dependent on does something to satisfy their own needs, the BPD sufferer might treat that action as a betrayal of their own self to fulfill THEIR needs. This can be both frustrating and infuriating. Yes, it looks a lot like narcissism in that it is all about them. My mother treated me and my sister precisely as she would treat herself. This sounds lovely from a Christian Golden Rule perspective, but it isn't. This thwarts a child's normal personal identity development. I can completely see why boys of BPD mothers are at high risk for gender identity problems. Regardless, there were certain aspects of "socialization" applied to me which my mother would apply to any girl, specifically, herself because there was no difference between her, me, and my sister in her mind's eye. Was this failure to differentiate complete? Was my mother completely delusional? No. Not that bad. However, there was a significant enough overlap between how I should have been treated as a boy, various aspects of "socialization", and how I was actually treated. Yes, that introduced confusion.
What does my experience mean for "socialization?" There are some aspects of socialization for which I was affected, and many more that I was not by. The formative socialization experiences you mentioned Ray, I was NOT affected by. Also, after being taught how to socialize with boys by therapists, I managed to have male friends in high school, and only male friends since I was discouraged from keeping female friends at all. That had its effects on me, too. Any transwoman who had primarily male friends in high school will have the memories of formative male-male socialization experiences. I may have been a fish out of water, but still, this was important. I bonded with these boys--now men--and formed relationships that have lasted our lifetimes. This contrasts with gal friends from high school who bonded closely with other girls and have life-long relationships with them that I was excluded from back then both by their choice (girls only) and by mine (doing as told and avoiding much contact with girls). When things got weird after the epilepsy intensification and my life was in review once more, those old relationships I had with those boys, who are still close friends, ended up a very important factor in my motivation to attempt detransition. This is an entire conversation to have unto itself. This part of socialization--the relationship bonding process--is very important. I know some people with intersex conditions whose parents also helped them socialize as boys. When these intersex people found themselves recalibrating their social gender position once more in their later adult years, the male bonds they made as teens became an important factor to consider for them as well. That said, if some modern transwomen transition as teens and form lifelong bonds with girls, I think we should consider how this will affect these young transwomen for the rest of their lives, which would probably strengthen their self-concept as transwomen rather than weaken it, as it did for me and the intersex people that I mentioned. I often think about the counter-factual question, "What if my mother didn't send me to therapy for my effeminate behavior?" What if I was never ordered to give up my gal friends? Would I have ever felt the need to detransition at a time later in life when I had to rebuild my sense of self after reviewing my life's history?
Is becoming a mother the same as being "socialized" as a mother? Are sex-based differences in psychology the same as being "socialized" as a specific gender? We must also be careful to distinguish the difference between socialization and the impact of innate differences.
I mean to get across that the concept of "socialization" is a very broad concept with many, MANY facets, even in terms of gendered socialization. It seems that your discussion, AS WELL as the discussion of socialization given by the transwoman you were reviewing, was probably too broad, or at least not well enough defined, to be meaningful. If you wish to revisit the socialization problem, you may wish to be more specific in the future about which aspects of socialization you are discussing. Learn to define your aspects precisely. This would be a multi-episode discussion.
@@BillPhlorgian long comment, but worth the read for sure.
I wanna add that, as a trans woman, I missed out on some of the male socialization you mention. I felt a critical disconnect from boys. I didn't resonate with them at some level
The social narratives that we experience are internalized in all sorts of ways. And I think it's reasonable to expect the socialization of trans girls to be something more complicated than "male."
I always felt more comfortable being friends with women, even though I embraced some aspect masculinity. In retrospect, "tomboy" felt much more accurate to my experiences than "male."
And today I'm an androgynous woman, which isn't out of place in the rock climbing gym.
@@connor5669 I tell people I was sent to "how to be a boy" school! My late grade school therapy mostly consisted of group therapy which taught me how to socialize with boys without things getting weird, er, TOO weird. I got along just enough to bond with an "outsider" clique who tolerated me because I was an outsider just like them.
The point to remember, that the FULL socialization experience among girls is fundamentally different than whatever variant you or I experienced. As Ray is trying to point out there, some social aspects BETWEEN girls and between girls and mothers are driven by biology. No matter what kind of affiliation we had with girls and women, we were never and never will be REALLY in their club. You know what I mean? I still pass "too" well as a woman. (My innate hormonal pathologies brought me to this point.) If women I am talking with don't know about my past, they will treat me as another woman. However, even then, *I* know the difference. There are things I avoid discussing because to discuss them as if I were just another woman would be to lie, and I don't want to lie. So, I avoid. This affects socialization. It can never be the same. I can be sad about it, which I was most of my life, or like I am now fully accepting that I have a different experience than men or women and that is OK. We should never compare our socialization to that of women, or men if we transition young, but accept that we have our own unique socialization dynamics and that is OK.
BTW, once I got to college, I "took the breaks off" and primarily socialized with women once again. That is actually how I built my pre-transition career, through networking with women while in college. (Old girl's network.) It was far, far too easy as an adult to be seen as "one of the girls" (explicitly mentioned multiple times) pre-transition, but STILL I wasn't. Not really. I translated that to mean that there was more "evidence" I should have been a woman and should live as one. If you can't beat them, join them? My socialization problems haunted me again when I attempted to detransition. After all this time, I seem even more "hardened" in my socialization dynamics than I was pre-transition in my 20s. The dynamics of my youth were such that, even though dressed as a man, with the hair cut or whatever, if I wasn't constantly watching how I was acting, I could easily be mistaken as a lesbian by strangers. Part of that was looks, but a lot of it was just raw behavior. What does that mean for "socialization" and Ray's argument? Now, the problem is even worse given my age. After a year and a half of trying, I am thinking that it is just too damned hard for me to convince people I am a man. I ask why when, in my mind's eye, I look masculine enough, but like a lot of FTMs, people tell me, "It's the 'whole package.' You are just not convincing." What do I do with that? Again, what does that mean for Ray's argument?
@@BillPhlorgian I think being socialized trans is an experience of it's own. And any attempt to weaponize socialization to invalidate trans women will necessarily erase the complexities of our lives.
The same is true for other marginalized people. Black girls are socialized differently than white ones, for example. These differences are often erased to give anti trans viewpoints more coherence than they really possess. Imo
@@connor5669 yes, yes, yes!
Totally nailed it Ray! 🩷 A transwomen can never experience the absolute fear of getting pregnant if pregnancy is not desired.
Isn't that absurd though? A woman can't get pregnant by accident. It is only through acquiescing to the demand for penetrative sex that it can happen, and it turns out that most women can orgasm just fine without penetrative sex. So it's not the fear of getting pregnant that is the problem, it's the fear of refusing a male's demand for penetrative sex without protection. Making women feel guilty for their concerns has been the modus operandi of the patriarchy for centuries, why are we still doing this?
This is a question, not an argument...what is autogynaphilias response to males identifying as females from a very early age? Before a child has a sexual desire. Is it still autogynephilia?
Anne Lawrence talks about this in her book Men Trapped in Men's Bodies. Basically, you know how little boys can have emotional crushes on girls prior to going to puberty or even really having any awarenss of themselves? Lawrence argues this is evidence of the fact that our sexual orientations don't suddenly spring into existence out of thin air when we hit puberty but manifest in behaviors earlier in childhood; the difference is that the behaviors don't have an explicitly erotic dimension until puberty.
@@RayAlexWilliams well it's a shame that Blanchard said AGP is NOT an orientation then.
This makes a lot of sense then. Thank you. I really appreciate your videos. They have allowed me to really embrace a lifestyle I'm comfortable with. I couldn't get behind the "trans" logic. It just didn't make sense to me. No matter how many ways I tried to intellectualize it, I never felt like a real woman. I am much more comfortable with saying I am a man with autogynephilia. That makes sense to me and brings me peace. It sucks. But I can work with that. So thank you. I love your videos!
Are you talking about very feminine boys who grow up to be feminine homosexuals if they don't transition? Those are not AGP. Young AGPs may secretly wish they were girls now and then, maybe secretly cross-dress, but they do not identify as girls and display female-like behaviour from age 3-4 like future HSTS.
👍
The first time someone brought up being socialized male to me. I didn’t know what the fuck they were even talking about.
De meeste vrouwen komen er ook pas later achter of ze wel of geen kinderen kunnen krijgen
Good point (I used google translate)
Yes, but they related to as future nurturers whether or not they go on to have children. Given dolls, more likely to do baby sitting and generally expected to keep people happy.
But until then they'll still fear impregnation by rape. And that won't make their brain less evolved to be aware of it.
I don't even fit in with males ether. I'm a alien when it comes to socializing. I'm alterhuman lol.
I lived as a man from ages 14-28. I have way more social experience as a man than as a woman, having only lived as a woman for just over a year. Why would you deny that a lot of transpeople have experienced both genders socially? That seems self-evident and the only exception are transpeople who don't pass.
You still are a man
Which is the majority.
It's hard to tell what's more offensive here, a male explaining female socialization in terms of their sexual-biology, "OMG we have uteruses, so all our behavior is centered around making sure we don't accidentally get pregnant", I can't quite believe someone can be that sexist in this day and age. On the other hand, we have the total lack of understanding about what socialization entails, a Google Scholar search for the term resocialization generates 41k results. "Resocialization is a process of identity transformation in which people are called upon to learn new roles, while unlearning some aspects of their old ones."
Well there's two males here, so which one are you talking about?
Eggs are not costly to make; they just appear every month. Men invest more in the family because they have to put their life on the line to defend not only women but most of the rest of society in war. You've spoken like a keyboard warrior in a time of peace. You take for granted the sacrifices other men have made because of the era and geographic location we live in since by and large we are at peace with no conscription notice. It also shows your cavalier attitude in discounting a man's role.
Literally all I did was defend the most fundamental basic findings of evolutionary psychology. If you have a problem with the parental investment hypothesis, take it up with evolutionary theory. What I am talking about applies across the entire animal kingdom.
@@RayAlexWilliams But the male invests more into raising the family through the defense of it.
@@RayAlexWilliams "findings" "hypothesis"
stop saying cis, its offensive
I was imitating trans activists. That word is otherwise not part of my vocabulary.
Also, being offended by words is dumb. The problem with the word is that it's ideological, not because it's "offensive."
@@RayAlexWilliamsif you're a realist we don't use wrong sex pronouns either...even if some consider it polite....it's part of what got us here in the first place
cis