Were Achilles and Petroclus lovers? Spencer Klavan discusses love in Ancient Greece

Oxford Classicist Spencer Klavan gives his take on the longstanding question of whether Achilles and Petroclus were lovers. He then weighs in on the larger question of homosexuality in Ancient Greece.

[@thenorthremebers8400]

“There didn’t seem to be any evidence in the Iliad.”
Are you sure about that

[@akis8402]

He's right there isn't. If you've ever bothered reading it you'd know

[@thenorthremebers8400]

Akis but I did read the Iliad...twice

[@akis8402]

@@thenorthremebers8400 I've read it in it's original ancient greek form and there isn't a single suggestion of them being lovers. Quote me one line where Homer even slightly points to them being lovers. Oh that's right, there isn't one.
If you're unable to understand the way ancient Greeks described friendship in poems that's not my concern. And also none of the other poets count when it was Homer that wrote it. All we know about Achilles comes from the Iliad up until Hector's death and from The Odyssey in which Odysseus finds Achilles in the underworld so it's confirmed that he died in the war. The input of other writers shouldn't be taken into account seeing us it is clearly one man's work.

[@NarutoDivorceArcReal]

Akis i know this is old but i read the iliad but after patroclus dies achilles goes on a two page rant about how life is not worth living anymore

[@dokidoki719]

@@NarutoDivorceArcReal If my best friend dies you better believe I am going to rant and grieve. I am sorry that you guys haven’t experienced such friendships or maybe you value sexual and romantic love over all other relationships.

[@derrickguerrero7704]

never answered the question lolol

[@derrickguerrero7704]

@Jacqueline Davis yOuu dIidnT EVen bOthER WATching tHE viD DID yoUuuu??

[@jackh.3052]

They r lovers then also both of them r Spartans so.. and their ashes buried together I cant see a straight thing in here

[@alexfromau]

They weren't Spartans. The Iliad is set in the bronze age even before Sparta existed.

[@bimboblackening]

@@alexfromau agreed and Achilles lived in Phtia (if I spelt that right) which is now in central Greece

[@rebellius_9190]

@@alexfromau yes, they weren't Spartans, but no, Sparta existed. Helen herself, the ''cause'' of the Trojan War, was the queen of Sparta

[@AnandVenigalla]

Are they gay in the Iliad? Not necessarily. But in the classical tradition, (like the Symposium), Achilles and Patroclus are coded as gay.

[@bimboblackening]

THEY WERE BURIED IN THE SAME URN HOW IS THAT NOT GAY?!!?!!?

[@MartialArtsTechniquesideas]

@@bimboblackening it’s not gay at all, he is best friends

[@thefeatherbird_]

@Jacqueline Davis they are gay because homer wanted them to be. To quote Aeschines-
"Although he speaks in many places of Patroclus and Achilles, he hides their love and avoids giving a name to their friendship, thinking that the exceeding greatness of their affection is manifest to such of his hearers as are educated men."

[@julesjgreig]

Thank you

[@BarbaPamino]

So if male on male sexual intercourse was so widespread in ancient Greece how does a play like Lysistrata exist?

[@iWizard]

It's a good question.

[@BarbaPamino]

@iWizard it's called something doesn't add up. Lol. Athens wasn't nearly as gay as modern scholarship makes it seem. They confuse the words related to Eros as automatically meaning romantic sexual love. It's not the case and never was.
Spartan love is also a complete myth. Supposedly the sacred band of Thebes were paired as eromenos and erastes. But we have no documents from Thebes since alexander had the place demolished.
But even then the pederastic pairing was not implied intercourse. It was a tutorship pairing. Obviously it became sexual at times. Gay men still existed. But the society as a whole was not prominently same-sex relation based.

[@pampoovey6722]

Dope video.

[@clustersbendedmind2607]

Spencer so hot and smart!!!!!!!!

[@jglammi]

totally

[@caitlynford3001]

Agreed

[@user-td3ut4tg3v]

Nice house was he in a barn

[@Mvnvce]

Short answer: NO

[@Lysanderfication]

Pretty inclined to torture the material to make it so.

[@maxlee8502]

I'm Achilles incarnated and I was not gay, he was my brother.

[@carlosvaldez4356]

They literally mixed their ashes in the same urn so that they would never be apart anymore.

[@greektoonmania7447]

@Samael exactly! Like having a beard , for Spartans, was a thing of bravery and power , but for the Athenians was a thing of laziness, dirty appearance with an exception for philosophers and priest's (that thing changed with Pericles) . In the region of Macedonia , king Philip the second, used to choose his best soldiers according to their facial hair and then by the skills

[@Rose-xe4ct]

@Samael
Plato did not argue if Achilles was a top or a bottom for you to dismiss it as “propaganda”. People can intepret classics as they want. If anything, the straight propaganda that’s been overshadowing years of lgbtq+ history is more prominent.

[@bimboblackening]

Yes… and Patroclus was white 🤨😐

[@nowifate]

@@bimboblackening Very white 🙃