Strong bat rep format. Love it, not too long and loadsa detail. Concerned how your gutter runner bus is gonna do vs Terror causing flyers? Of which there are many! Nice idea though... Gutter runners, grey seers and weapon teams for sure seems the way to go. Love how you see the optimal playstyle being guerilla warfare as well. Agreed. Excellent content again G 👊
Interesting interaction with "Stand Back Chief" and Stand and Shoot. Reading it myself, I would say you still get S&S as you aren't actually targeting with a ranged attack. Knowing GW though, it could be either way.
Remember 1% of a model gives a unit partial cover. So the gutter runners shooting through gaps in that big unit almost always will give partial cover to their targets because they block each others LOS to the target.
Wouldn't the second Grey Seer taking Illusion and so being able to cast miasmic mirage be really useful to stop enemy units like dragon riders from chewing up a large part of your army?
Sweet gutter runner idea! Excited to see what you come up with for Skaven as they are my army for the old world as well. I am going to start trying the screaming bell with wizard spam to see how that goes, granted it’s for 2,500pts. What do you think about giant rats in maxed out units? You can get 30 and a master molder for 102pts. In a 6x5 unit they have base leadership 7 plus any ranks. I think they are the only thing cheap enough to act as a true tarpit.
If you want a tarpit, Rat Swarms do a really good job it! You definately can go big units, but post stat nerf (they changed the PDF from S3 to S2) I'm a lot less interested in them as a large unit.
How does the skaven list deal eith a dragon, just magic? Ny eshin lists iv been stuggling to think of ways to deal with a dragon or similar units warp lightning cannons dont seem to great
Hopefully this link helps Simon discord.com/channels/949223016355745813/1248167607937536040/1248167607937536040 If not, it's in the old-world-lists thread, the one titled "Dark elves death star, might be a good counter to the screaming vampires."
The Old World Section is tucked below the 40k Chat section, and above the Hobby Chat section. If that doesn't help, use the searchbar at the top and paste in old-world-lists - that should take you there!
@@CloseOrder that doesn’t help. Under 40k chat I have: Xenos, Imperium, Bug Watch Hive Cluster ++ and Chaos. All with sub-categories. Then comes hobby chat. I get no results when searching for old world or that DE list…
@@CloseOrder I understand the concept. My point is skirmishers block each other and also can give cover to the target unit by semi-blocking their own guys in the unit. Big blobs of skirmishers are VERY hard to get all the shots and esp. hard not give cover to the target.
You can take 2 additional units alongside the big brick - the smaller units are very vulnerable to small arms fire and magic missiles while the big brick is very hard to remove - so it's points denial as well as points scoring.
If that 750pt unit kills 100pts every turn and doesn't die then you're up massively as long as you don't fumble with the rest of the list. People need to stop looking at the game from a pure 1-1 kills perspective and start looking at it from the perspective of points differential.
@@simoneengelleitner947 This seems to be a pretty sound aspect of it as long as he keeps it alive which he probably 'should' be able to do against this sort of opposition and seemed to be unlucky not to. Plenty of people seem to be doing the same thing to Dwarfs with a dragon or whatever and this is definitely more creative if less straightforward to pull off. Will be interesting to see what he does with it against faster armies that can engage the rest of his army, it's obviously going to have to be used a bit differently, looking forward to finding out.
@@CloseOrder even the worst Khemri archers shred the unit, and units with armor dont care about ap 0. Auto dispel from dwarfs grounds your unit, as does the horn of the Bretonnians. You have to meet a very bad list to make this work
Don't get pressed, it's just words. British pronunciation of Gyrocopter according to google: www.google.com/search?q=gyrocopter+pronunciation&rlz=1C1ASUC_enGB572GB572&oq=gyrocopter+pronunciation&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORiABDIHCAEQABiABDIKCAIQABgPGBYYHjINCAMQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAQQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAUQABiGAxiABBiKBTIKCAYQABiABBiiBDIKCAcQABiABBiiBDIKCAgQABiABBiiBDIKCAkQABiABBiiBNIBCDg3MjdqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Biggest problem with big bricks of skirmish shooting is they block their own line of sight, so often half your shots are getting -1 or -2 for cover or even just not able to shoot at all and i dont know how much people are currently aware of and playing those rules properly.
Just have your bases at a 45% angle - with the tip of the back model able to see the entirety of the unit it's targeting. I didn't go to that level of control on Warhall so we could get the game played in a reasonable time frame - but if you're only 2 ranks deep you can pretty comfortably line up shots so everyone can see everything
That's RAW, but honestly I have never seen any player demanding to check the actual LoS of every individual skirmisher to see if the target gets cover or not from other skirmishers in the same unit. Most will apply cover penalties only from more obvious sources, like intervening terrain or units.
@@liangweihao7932 If you are playing at a tournament and your entire strategy is a big block of skirmish shooting you don't think they would make you take cover penalties? Also its one of the biggest benefits of the tomb king Arrows of Asaph rule so you are basically just giving that to every skirmisher. And there were multiple points in this batrap where it would have had a huge effect, its not just a minor change.
@@CloseOrder that makes no sense, stand and shoot doesnt care about range. While charging the engineer is the closest unit and so its targetable. The rules are clear on that
Strong bat rep format. Love it, not too long and loadsa detail. Concerned how your gutter runner bus is gonna do vs Terror causing flyers? Of which there are many! Nice idea though... Gutter runners, grey seers and weapon teams for sure seems the way to go. Love how you see the optimal playstyle being guerilla warfare as well. Agreed. Excellent content again G 👊
Thanks
20:35 it's not because of fire & flee, but because of feigned flight
Absolutely right, thanks for clarifying - Feigned Flight is so strong, really takes a chunk of the risk out of the list
Love your work! Great bat rap
Much appreciated!
Interesting interaction with "Stand Back Chief" and Stand and Shoot. Reading it myself, I would say you still get S&S as you aren't actually targeting with a ranged attack. Knowing GW though, it could be either way.
Interesting! Re-reading I can see it going either way.
I was happy enough with his take on it, felt like a big brain play at the time.
I was checking that also after seeing the move and I agree. Also it makes no thematic sense to not be able to shoot the engineer as he charges
I think woods only grant partial cover.
Huh, you're right!
I took his word for it - but easy to miss things when the rules are as dense and poorly laid out as they are in the Old World!
Remember 1% of a model gives a unit partial cover. So the gutter runners shooting through gaps in that big unit almost always will give partial cover to their targets because they block each others LOS to the target.
Wouldn't the second Grey Seer taking Illusion and so being able to cast miasmic mirage be really useful to stop enemy units like dragon riders from chewing up a large part of your army?
Problem is Illusion needs Lore Familiar to be consistent - but the Daemonolgy caster needs it too
I might try a gutterstar with also a banner of verminous scurrying for Swiftstride; get away from those templates more easily.
Huh. That's actually a really good shout
Sweet gutter runner idea! Excited to see what you come up with for Skaven as they are my army for the old world as well. I am going to start trying the screaming bell with wizard spam to see how that goes, granted it’s for 2,500pts.
What do you think about giant rats in maxed out units? You can get 30 and a master molder for 102pts. In a 6x5 unit they have base leadership 7 plus any ranks. I think they are the only thing cheap enough to act as a true tarpit.
If you want a tarpit, Rat Swarms do a really good job it!
You definately can go big units, but post stat nerf (they changed the PDF from S3 to S2) I'm a lot less interested in them as a large unit.
Grey seers have magic resistance anyway right? So total MR -4
It doesn't stack unfortunately! Plus I believe MR caps at 3, but I'm not as confident on that one
Strong list for sure, just doesn’t feel “Skaven” to me. Tough to play with & against which is always fun 👏
I agree, although my sarcastic answer would be it doesn't feel like Skaven because it can win games 😜
Must of missed it, what size army 2k?
Yeah 2k, that seems to be the standard everywhere I see Old World played currently - but I probably should state that in the video!
How does the skaven list deal eith a dragon, just magic? Ny eshin lists iv been stuggling to think of ways to deal with a dragon or similar units warp lightning cannons dont seem to great
You can't really deal with it in the book at all, outside of stacking CR.
So my plan? Go around it! Stay out of the charge arc, kill everything else
@@CloseOrder good to know I shouldn't bother with bad attempts to patch the problem XD thanks
@@CloseOrder Master Assassin with dragon slaying sword for hit and hope? Losing the fellblade really cut deep!
Can you link/tell me where to find the information about that DE Shade strategy? Sounds exciting, but can’t find it on the 6++ discord…
Hopefully this link helps Simon discord.com/channels/949223016355745813/1248167607937536040/1248167607937536040
If not, it's in the old-world-lists thread, the one titled "Dark elves death star, might be a good counter to the screaming vampires."
@@CloseOrderI’m an idiot and can’t even see the old world content/lists :( Only a bunch of 40k and Imperium, Chaos etc… Any idea what I’m doing wrong?
The Old World Section is tucked below the 40k Chat section, and above the Hobby Chat section.
If that doesn't help, use the searchbar at the top and paste in old-world-lists - that should take you there!
@@CloseOrder that doesn’t help. Under 40k chat I have: Xenos, Imperium, Bug Watch Hive Cluster ++ and Chaos. All with sub-categories. Then comes hobby chat.
I get no results when searching for old world or that DE list…
How are the gutter runners getting off enough shots when they can't see through their own models? I feel like you should get 50% or less shooting.
You typically end up spread out in a crescent moon shape to stay in range and also get shots off
@@CloseOrder I understand the concept. My point is skirmishers block each other and also can give cover to the target unit by semi-blocking their own guys in the unit. Big blobs of skirmishers are VERY hard to get all the shots and esp. hard not give cover to the target.
Face the Skirmishers 45% from the unit their shooting and poke the tip of the back rank through the front rank to the point they're unobscured
You take 3 units of gutter runners and shot them out like missiles, no need for two chars to go into a big brick
You can take 2 additional units alongside the big brick - the smaller units are very vulnerable to small arms fire and magic missiles while the big brick is very hard to remove - so it's points denial as well as points scoring.
727 Points for a unit killing warmachines, sry makes no sense
If that 750pt unit kills 100pts every turn and doesn't die then you're up massively as long as you don't fumble with the rest of the list.
People need to stop looking at the game from a pure 1-1 kills perspective and start looking at it from the perspective of points differential.
@@simoneengelleitner947 This seems to be a pretty sound aspect of it as long as he keeps it alive which he probably 'should' be able to do against this sort of opposition and seemed to be unlucky not to. Plenty of people seem to be doing the same thing to Dwarfs with a dragon or whatever and this is definitely more creative if less straightforward to pull off. Will be interesting to see what he does with it against faster armies that can engage the rest of his army, it's obviously going to have to be used a bit differently, looking forward to finding out.
@@CloseOrder even the worst Khemri archers shred the unit, and units with armor dont care about ap 0. Auto dispel from dwarfs grounds your unit, as does the horn of the Bretonnians. You have to meet a very bad list to make this work
Just have to say, it's not pronounced guy-rocopter, but jai-rocopter..
I bet you say Jif too 😤
@@CloseOrder if you don't believe me, just Google the pronunciation for gyroscope. 🙄
Don't get pressed, it's just words.
British pronunciation of Gyrocopter according to google:
www.google.com/search?q=gyrocopter+pronunciation&rlz=1C1ASUC_enGB572GB572&oq=gyrocopter+pronunciation&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORiABDIHCAEQABiABDIKCAIQABgPGBYYHjINCAMQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAQQABiGAxiABBiKBTINCAUQABiGAxiABBiKBTIKCAYQABiABBiiBDIKCAcQABiABBiiBDIKCAgQABiABBiiBDIKCAkQABiABBiiBNIBCDg3MjdqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Biggest problem with big bricks of skirmish shooting is they block their own line of sight, so often half your shots are getting -1 or -2 for cover or even just not able to shoot at all and i dont know how much people are currently aware of and playing those rules properly.
checkerboard formation?
@@stonem0013 If the model cant see even 1% of the unit they are shooting at they get a -1 for cover.
Just have your bases at a 45% angle - with the tip of the back model able to see the entirety of the unit it's targeting.
I didn't go to that level of control on Warhall so we could get the game played in a reasonable time frame - but if you're only 2 ranks deep you can pretty comfortably line up shots so everyone can see everything
That's RAW, but honestly I have never seen any player demanding to check the actual LoS of every individual skirmisher to see if the target gets cover or not from other skirmishers in the same unit. Most will apply cover penalties only from more obvious sources, like intervening terrain or units.
@@liangweihao7932 If you are playing at a tournament and your entire strategy is a big block of skirmish shooting you don't think they would make you take cover penalties? Also its one of the biggest benefits of the tomb king Arrows of Asaph rule so you are basically just giving that to every skirmisher. And there were multiple points in this batrap where it would have had a huge effect, its not just a minor change.
Untargetable engeneers is bullshit
Honestly it feels fine as weird edge cases in Old World go. I'll just know to position better next time - I didn't have to get in charge range of both
@@CloseOrder that makes no sense, stand and shoot doesnt care about range. While charging the engineer is the closest unit and so its targetable. The rules are clear on that