It makes me so incredibly depressed, if they just either gave them the ability to benefit from their own ward they give out or had 2 health I think they would see significantly more play. Hell if they had 2hp and ward 5 I could think of some fun melee builds for skaven. Would they be the most competitive? No but they would be fun.
Nice tier list! I sometimes worry that I’m a contrarian when I see others talk about skaven units and have takes I disagree with-but interestingly when I watch your stuff I am pretty much 100% in agreement- I can tell you actually play the rats! Personally hoping for improvements to warp-grinder in the future
Vizzik being such a cool model makes me keep trying to run him in my predominantly clan rats + stormfiend lists, but its probably the right idea for me to keep him back to make more room for support. Ive also been testing out acolytes and do find their 2 wounds and damage profile can get some solid work done, atleast against my buddy running gravelords.
Globadiers are soooo close! They're solid, but bring the points down and they can compete with our other options. Vizzik + Clanrats and Stormfiends can definitely build out some solid lists.
Wonderful tier list! I think the overarching theme is that Skaven, at large, are too expensive. You're paying premiums for meh abilities and recursion. Meanwhile, pretty much all the armies of renown look unplayable with the loss of Gnawhole, so you're paying the recursion tax without even getting the recursion. Hopefully we see some balance changes like decent point drops, give Jezzails at least their 3+ to hit and maybe, MAYBE give Stormvermin 2 wound models.
There's nothing wrong with running some sub-optimal units if that's what sparks joy! You'll still be able to win plenty of games with a WLC and Hell Pit in a list.
@@warpfireminis Putting out Mortals and a big beefy feller isn't, like, auto-lose stuff. They're just not the most optimal choice. But, like, honestly, if you're running some preset meta list of only the most optimal units...you're only halfway playing the game *yourself*
I wouldn't worry. Collecting 40k taught me the meta is always changing. 1 day you are at the top of the lists, the next you are nerfed to the bottom, and vice versa.
Thanks for the video-it's been really helpful, especially since I don’t have as much time to play the game as I’d like. I noticed a lot of people talking about the Ratling Guns, and I didn’t quite understand why they were considered so strong, but the way you explained it really cleared things up. I might actually swap out my Jezzails, which is a bit of a shame. Games Workshop had us thinking Jezzails would be amazing for a few months, tempting players to buy two Skaventide boxes to get six of them, but then poof, a big nerf. It’s frustrating, especially since the book was written a while ago, so they must have known this would happen. Oh well, I printed my extra three Jezzails, so to them. Haha. Anyway, you brought up some great ideas. It’s a shame so many units are stuck in the F tier. I have to agree that the Brood Horror belongs there for now-there’s no way I’d bring it for 300 points, even though I love the model and pre-ordered it. It’s just been sitting in its box. I’ll probably wait six months for the points to drop. Too many cool models and interesting strategies are stuck in F tier. I have slightly higher hopes for Vissik, though. I feel like you may have indirectly overlooked something about him. I agree that the rampage and warscroll prayer isn’t super effective, but the fact that he can pray and generate prayer points in your opponent’s turn without using a command point is huge. Plus, he can still use Magical Intervention (I think?). Doesn’t that mean he could pray up to four times per round, three without using a command point? You didn’t skip over the fact he can pray in the opponent’s turn, but you seemed to downplay its importance, focusing on how Death Frenzy isn’t great-which I agree with. But the rest of the prayer lore is quite strong. With three or four prayers per round and one round of rerolls, you can almost guarantee getting off Filth-Crust at 8 points regularly. That might not be enough to bump him to A tier, but I think you glossed over that extra value and focused too much on Death Frenzy. For the Grey Seer and Thanquol, you mentioned they can reliably cast Skitterleap and Manifestations, but with Vissik, you didn’t emphasize how reliably he can get off Filth-Crust each turn. And consistently giving 40 Clanrats crit mortal wounds is definitely something that shouldn’t be overlooked! And I would argue, clanrats with crit mortals trumps Rat Ogors with potential damage. Still, great video, and thanks again!
If you ended up with extra Jezzails, just glue a couple extra barrels on there and call them Ratlings for now! My issue with Vizzik is that our prayers are focused on buffing/debuffing infantry in melee combat, and without any movement tricks or real defense I don't think that's a consistent winning strategy in the current meta, especially when you compare our melee threats to everyone else's. Going into things like Lumineth, Tzeentch, Gitz, and so on, they just have the tools to blow up your Clanrats before they get to do much, or tie them up to where their mostly ineffective. Then on top all it takes is a single roll of 1 when you go to pray and your whole plan goes out the window. Buffed Rogors are good for about 30 damage, buffed Clanrats are good for about 20; that said 40 wounds > 24 wounds so I'd personally run the Clanrats.
@@warpfireminis Ya.. You are right. I'm really just wishful thinking.. I want to use more of these new models. hahaha I'm a little disappointed that all these new things, but the stronger Skaven unit in my collection is 20 year old metal Ratling Guns :) and 85% of the new models are in B tier or lower. I'm really not sure what they are thinking. Hopefully some updates will fix it.
I agree Krittok is aggressively pointed. Not sure it would take much to help him move up the board though. His abilities really shine with what's working for us (another clawstep even for a CP can be really helpful especially if you're running the VL Seer, Weapons Teams, Night Runners.) His Warmaster is also intriguing as it can take the Priority Target heat off Thanquol or Vizzik (making his rampage potentially more impactful again without Priority Target working) Thanks again for the great content. You're our secret weapon against the surface dwellers.
100% agree, if they drop his points down some he'll see play. The good news is that warscrolls usually stay the same and his is good, points they'll eventually get right over time!
I just went 2-1 at a local tournament with my skaven and I’m still pretty new to the faction, so videos like this have been super helpful to learn! Thank you for educating my clan-rat lookin ass.
Hey man, thanks for the insight. Haven't really been playing over the summer, so nice to get some of your experience and knowledge. Solid takes on a lot of things. I was really curious if you would like the Doomwheel. Clearly not. Lol. I thought maybe on account of that I believe it can move out of combat...? If I understand correctly, causing mortal wounds on the way, and chasing wizards. If it works how I think seems fun to push right through enemy lines. However the combat profile is terrible 😅. I was really hoping for more out of the book. Most of the heroes just feel like tax. It's too bad.
I REALLY wanted the Doomwheel to work. I even tried a list with 5 of them in it to try and combo and grind up a bunch of mortal wounds, but at the end of the day it's difficult to proc their ability, the shooting profile doesn't do enough damage now that you can't overcharge the shots, and then the melee profile is abysmal. If you want one in a list to zoom around it can do that, but that's about it.
i tryed your list idea with 3 buig guys today, i was scared because i habe so little units but man, the Teleporting all over the place and the power of 6 buffed Rattlingguns are awsome! thanks for the List conzept i would never tought to use 3 Big guys! keep up the Great Great Worke! Yes Yes 🙂
Between his rampage and the fight last spell, we do have the tools to make Death Frenzy work, it's just an incredible investment to make your 300-ish point unit fight twice
i think the best application of his goad is to hit a line with it, so they cant get every model of the unit in on Vizzik, wasting some of their attacks on top of the minus hit/wound so his 5+/5++ does enough. Plus if you slap warpgale down you give yourself the time to get that second fight in. But it's a lot of points of investment. Tho ive been able to take down pretty large enemies thanks to it
Ive got 3 points that might be a bit controversal :) First, I think 2 Greyseer are much better then Thanqual - it's harder to shoot both off, you get another unit to do BTs and they are effectively 2 casts with +2 The other is that I think the Master Moulder, while beeing bad by himself, is ok if you play into heavy Rat Ogor lists (give him the enhancement and you get back your +2 charge, then skitterleap him with 1 of the Grey Seers) Also, I don't think Vizzik is good, for his point cost he is way too easy to shift - But I didn't get to test him yet. However I have a hard time justifying putting him in the list
If you haven't put Thanquol on the board, I'd say you need to give him a try. Two Grey Seers are great at casting a spell each in your turn only, and then that's it. They can't help you score any of the tactics outside of positional ones, they're a liability as far as giving up easy tactics to opponents, they don't do any damage, and by running two you're adding an extra drop. I like Grey Seers, but Thanquol just gets a lot done ESPECIALLY with his Warscroll spell, it's a game winner. I don't think Rat Ogor heavy is the build that wins consistently for us, so I'm out on the MM. The charge bonus is something, but I'd rather have a spell cast.
Idk which book is more competitive but definitely prefer the lasts one meta to this ones. I played 100 plague monks with bell and couple Jezzails and even thought I went 14-0 with it so it must have been a very good list I still felt very good after every win because I had to play very well and plan out extremely far ahead. Now with braindead 12 rattling guns in every army I’ve alr had a couple games that were over before they started which I didn’t have a single time last book.
They'll nerf the Ratlings eventually for sure, I'm with you there. With some points tweaks on the other stuff I think we can be a really interesting army.
Very interesting content as always! Question: given your love for Skaven, have you been tempted to try them in the Old World (assuming you have any interest in that system at all)? There is very little content in that area and having a highly proficient player input into it would surely generate an audience.
I haven't dabbled in the Old World, I really love and play a ton of Age of Sigmar so it's tough to find the time to be proficient and keep up with 2 games.
I'm fairly new to AoS, but a somewhat neat if incredibly points inefficient way to try to protect him in melee (doesn't solve the getting shot off the board problem unfortunately) is by having a Brood Terror shadow him into combat. Vizzik pops his -1 to hit and wound, BT pops his -1 to hit and suddenly a lot of models are going to be hitting on 5 ups wounding on 4s or 5s. With Vizzik forcing the enemy unit to hit him instead of BT you can pretty reliably get both of these effects off, both going off on 2s. It's not points efficient at all being almost half a list on its own, but it is kinda funny still
@@warpfireminis that's a shame, I thought I might have found something kinda cool. Thanks for correcting me and helping me understand the rules better!
His warscroll is solid, the double 3claw is useful, but costing a CP is a little bit of a letdown. If they drop his points we'll see him out and about a lot more.
Two casts at +1 > one cast at essentially a +2. Thanquol being able to cast DOUBLE the amount of spells and effectively casting in the opponent's turn even through the -1 make him the king!
I'm still taking Thanquol every time. You don't want to add more drops, and you need units that can do damage/fight/score tactics other than just positional ones. The healing + damage + bonus to cast in the opponent's turn + his warscroll spell (this is the key one) are all just massive.
Hey man, great video. I was wondering, what points should the brood terror cost in order to be good? Because as you said it is the thing that destroys the mini
@@warpfireminis Sounds fine. There are many thing that makes little sense to me in this battletome. Like globadiers having 2 hp and the stormvermin 1 and that the model have a gun and there are no shooting profile for them, the ratling cannons of the stormfiends not having crit 2 hits, thanquol being the only warpfire weapon that cannot shoot in combat, the absolute murder they did on the jezzails...
Overall would you say that things in the f tier are actually that bad and will make life difficult, or are you coming from a perspective of "there's another unit that does the same role but better?" (e.g. warpblaster on its own or vs ratling guns)
It's definitely a situation where there's another unit that does the same thing, but way better. Then I'll add that you want to compare them to other armies as well to make sure they can compete, and most of those in the F tier just flat out can't.
Thank you very much. This was super informative and easy to watch. It would be very helpful, if you show the picture of the unit you are talking about first (maybe a bit larger) and then place them at the end. This way also non Skavenplayers can understand what unit you are talking about atm.
I just started with Spearhead and my first 2K point army is done, of course, it's the rattsies! There are some points in this tier-list that I do not quite understand, like...how would you use Thanquol? You can not fight with him as you are risking killing of a hero / general and losing your Wizard, aka casting opportunity. Most armies can easily burst focus down a single target, no? Vizzik makes more sense to me, he stays in the back behind his screen of Clanrats, brings Prayers, Spells and if the situation warrants it, Death Frenzy... Anyway, I do have to admit that I only have close to no experience haha, so I'd be very happy if you could explain to me how to use Thanquol, or even better, what kind of Skaven army compositions would be good for a beginner! Right now I'm running a casual shootie-shootie Skryre army type with Vizzik leading it.
It's actually the opposite of what you're thinking! The only thing Vizzik brings to the table are his prayers, which for the points just isn't enough. He's the piece that you can't throw into combat because he doesn't do enough damage, is too frail, and doesn't heal. Death Frenzy sounds nice, but on most of our infantry (Rogors aside) you just aren't going to do enough damage to wipe something good, then they're going to hit you and kill enough models where you second fight isn't super impactful. Thanquol on the other hand has the better save (which gets even better with AoD), heals D3 at the end of every turn, can Skitterleap himself out of dangerous positions, and does about 12 damage between his shooting + rampage + combat which is super respectable. Then we add in his two spell casts at +1 and that's where his value really starts to ramp up. His warscroll spell to turn off commands is just MASSIVE preventing redeploys and all out defenses, so whatever unit you hit with it is just a sitting duck. Then with the second cast you can do Warpgale to make them fight last and just pile in a few units to make sure the job gets done.
@@warpfireminis Hm...okay, but then what do you bring as a priest? All other units are either too expensive, or useless, no? If you got not priests then you lose a huge chunk of power of the Skaven Army I think. Also...you are starting to convince me on Thanquol...I'm bit sad that the Grey Seer on top is the old model, but he still looks very cool.
@@vinczeszilard5155 The current "best" lists we have are built around Ratling Guns, so we just don't bother bringing a Priest at all. The prayers are good, but you need to build heavy infantry to make them work with units of 40 Clanrats, reinforced Stormfiends/Rogors, and so on to make it worth it. A pack of 20 Clanrats with -1 to be wounded is still going to die to all of the shooty meta armies and most of the really good melee units anyways. Then damage-wise the Clanrats with all the mega buffs are still coming up short of Ratlings who can do it at range with no risk.
@@warpfireminis well, damn. Need to get ratling guns and the big guy then, I was looking at them anyway and I love the idea of the Hidden Weapon Team ability. Well, let's see if I can get them cheap somewhere.
If I didn't run the Warpseer I'd replace him with an Arch-Warlock and 3 more Ratling Guns OR a Grey Seer, change the 3 Ratlings to Scourgers, and add 3 more Scourgers.
hey, i probably need some help with this, im writing this after a game i had with some new models. i tried krittok with 40 stormvermin, 6 ratling guns, 6 rogors, 40 clanrats, grey seer and the plaguepack and while i knew that i wont be an optimal or very good list i got bodied so insanely hard. i lost 56% of my army in a single turn after both players did litteraly nothing turn 1. im just baffled as i thought i could be able to do at least something. i wasnt able to score battle tactics, kill any full unit or tank any damage without my entire unit getting whiped (except clanrats, wohoo). i was trying to change stuff the last hour but the more i tinker around the more i find myself with lists that are probably better but i simply dont want to play them. alot of shooting skryre seems great but its so boring imo. list building itself is also kind of hard imo with all of the restrictions that we have. all of the heroes with their special units and the sub factions which just benefit a portion of your list unless you go all in one direction which is again, pretty boring imo. i like a mixed force and i also just love the stormvermin models aswell as krittoks so id love to use them in any way, even if they arent meta. id love to use vizzik aswell but hes so expensive (450 for him while stuff like karazai is 480 is a joke imo) and against most armies that i play against he will be just picked of by shooting instantly so id waste 450p for nothing. maybe im just bad ofc but i dont know what to do atm. i lost all of my exitement for the new models and the army because, at least at the moment, it feels like either i play them in a way which i dont like or im going to pretty much waste an entire evening because all i do is picking up rats from the table.
Take a few pictures of your next game of deployment, round 1, round 2, and so on and e-mail them to me! It's tough to say exactly what went wrong without seeing how it all went down. The big thing to remember is that none of our units can take a hit; if they hit your Stormvermin, Clanrats, Rogors, Ratlings, ANYTHING, it's just flat-out dead. We need to put screens in the front, let them die, and then counter-punch the crap out of them quick. That's part of why I really love the Deceiver for us, he's the one thing in our army that can get charged and then just scoot away and stay safe.
@@warpfireminis i really appreciate that, thank you so much. is there any other way to support you? as im living in the eu i cant order minis from your store but i really like your stuff and would love to support your work. you are the skaven guy on youtube that i was looking for. ive always used the deceiver from when i got him so i just wanted to try something else but quickly regretted it. wouldve loved to take him in the first place but stuff is so expensive that i didnt have any points for that left while also wanting to try my new units., he will be in future lists for sure as i love the model, rules and eshin itself. i think i overspend on damage units and just ran 40 clanrats, which was in hindsight too little, however im not sure how many i need, i have 80 but i thought that 600p of my army being screens is too much, ill try 60 soon, aswell as vizzik. i didnt screen my rogors because i had nothing left and honestly stormvermin and krittok dont seem super worth, i will take a unit of 20 just for fun but i dont think that they need krittok as they get +1 wound from the prayer you want to give them anyway and 40 was just too many. i think i need to really get more into the new movement stuff for the army as i was playing other stuff the past months and need to get used to them to get the most out of the army.
Right now I'm running 40 Clanrats and 10 Night Runners for bodies, it's a little lean, but it's been working! Krittok hopefully goes down some points in some future updates, and then I'm with you on leaning into the movement stuff. For me, it seems like the identity they're pushing for Skaven right now is movement tricks + shooting, so building lists that focus on those seems like the move. We can do melee, but imo we just get outclasses there by other armies. As far as support, just tell your friends or share some videos! One day I might do a class or something along those lines, but for now we're just having a good time doing what we're doing!
@@warpfireminis hey, i wanted to make some pics to send you from my last 2 games but i won both of them rather decisively. i leaned into the movement shooty style. super hyped again for the army though, i feel like i got alot better at using all of the movement stuff, im just still struggling to play around double turns as i often get caught from it. i just cant handle it most of the times, with skaven its better than with other armies caus of their mobility but im still struggling, this could also be a good video, just a suggestion though. took 12 ratling guns, deceiver, thanquol, 2x20 clanrats, plaguepack and the engineer, maybe not ideal but i dont play at a super competetive enviroment. the list worked really well for me but i think i have to replace at least 1 unit of ratling guns, rolling all of those dice seemed fun at first but it got annyoing rather quickly. do you have any recommendations for that? maybe just 6 jezzails or maybe some rogors? i feel like it needs to be a hammer unit, otherwise id lack the damage to kill some armies. i was also impressed by the engineer, while he did not buff any jezzails i used him to skitter leap around to get some tactics while also getting some decent damage to characters or hammer units, maybe hes a bit expensive for that but it never felt wasted that he went somewhere for the objective because he was always able to shoot something with 3-6 dmg. thanquol was something i picked just because you recommended him and he was great, he kind of does it all, such a swiss army knife unit. deceiver is obviously awesome, by far my favourite unit in AoS. i just miss his shooting immunity and strike first but i guess you cant have it all. i just whish he wouldnt have the redeploy ability as i almost never have any other eshin units and even if, they are not close to him so either replacing it with something else or removing it and making him cheaper would eb great. maybe im missing out on some tricks there though.
@@biowiener7825 Sounds like you're getting things figured out! If you wanted to drop 6 of the Ratlings, I'd recommend trying out a squad of 4 Doom-flayers next! The Ratlings are the best thing we have, but the Flayers can give you similar damage, just in the combat phase. For the Engineer he's probably not the "best" but if you're having fun with him that's what matters, if I was going that style of fun I might do a Bombardier instead just for a bigger spike potential. Then for the Plaguepack I like Night Runners better, they can help out a little with the double turn by being a better screen, and with their pre-game move + clawsteps you can sometimes pin an enemy in to slow them down, which also helps lessen the impact of the double.
It is a little disappointing to learn that most of the stuff in the skaventide box isn't that good. I'm new to AoS, I've just picked up the box a couple weeks ago, and I've been painting up the minis. Of course, now I'm trying to figure out which direction I should go post-skaventide minis. Verminlord? Ratling guns? Stormfiends?
From the Skaventide box you can still get a lot of value out of the Clanrats, Grey Seer, Rogors, and Jezzails! It's easy enough to add an extra barrel or two to those Jezzails and call them Ratlings, or just proxy them as Ratlings with your friends since they're the same base size. I'd start out with adding Thanquol personally!
As the new battletomes drop I'll try to keep up with them! I have every Sigmar army, so it'll just be if we have the time to get them all knocked out/how fast they release them.
Great video. But why is Warlock Bombadier F Tier? His shooting actually works very good on infantry when I used it on the tabletop. it one shot infantry units to oblivion in 1 shooting phase even without buffs. And he is a great cheaper alternative to the other Skryre Heroes to still be able to boost Skryre units
Boosting the WLC and Warpblaster isn't something I value since those two units just aren't great right now. The Arch-Warlock saves you a CP every round and can cast a spell too, he's just a lot better. Our spells are great, so even something like a Grey Seer would be better.
Didn’t the arch warlock deny the warp cannon when it overcharged?? I think the ability the engineer have is “more more warp power” think that deny the overcharged ability. May not be S tier should be either b or c tier imo
Being the first book of the edition really has its down sides. We can see through the indexes there are rules that are applied to other factions that are just flat improvements over what we have. I think Skaven are very fun right now, but internal balance is off by a lot . And we are not due for another points change for 3 months
Seems hard to give different roles to all these shooting units. Some are always going to be almost strictly worse, and all you do whole edition is chase the one that is currently more efficiant given cureent points. Maybe some of them should be less damaged oriented and more tech-y/synergy focused. Like, the best shooting should probably require a lot of setup with support pieces and the way you play...and then more generic shootera is less powerful but less payoff.
hoestly as a massive skaven fan, I think this battletome needs some serious revision. The army just seems so frail. And i see abilities and I'm like "cool but other armies can do this but better, or with a bonus". very disappointed. the fact that over half our monsters/deamons are absolutely useless is astonishing
It's tough to see most of the new stuff be so horrible right now. In the next balance update, hopefully they'll haul Skaven out of the bottom of the meta finally. They were at the bottom in 3e too. It's like nothing was learned. What the heck are they doin over there?
The problem is that the Ratlings are so good we're likely going to see our winrate spike up a bit. I'm with you though, if they can drop the points down on some of the other stuff we'll be in a good place.
Still super bothers me that they make bad warscroll stats like Stormvermin jump the line on all other infantry units, going from 4+/5+ to 3+/4+ or something. I can't remember exactly, but it's just unnecessary. They already have better save, better rend, why do the hit and wound become Stormcast level? Like they do all this talk about model balance, and then throw it out the window.
So what you're telling me is that my Skaventide box is useless outside of Spearhead. 😢 I'm new to this. Are most Spearhead boxes full of units that aren't great outside of Spearhead? I was planning on getting the other Skaven Spearhead box but now it seems im better off just buying individual units if im wanting to play outside of Spearhead.
@Engra_ You're right. There are a couple of good units. Just sucks that there's not much reason to bring the engineer, clawlord on gnawbeast, jezzails, or warpblaster to an army. I really like how the warpblaster looks too.
I still think the Skaventide box is great! Clanrats, Grey Seers, and Rogors are all solid, and Jezzails + Engineer still have play, Ratlings are just a bit better right now. The only real loss is the Warpblaster, super cool model, but hard to justify it's points compared to everything else we have; sometimes you have to live with something just being cool.
They definitely missed a little bit on our points, but with 16 units in the S/A slots I'd say we probably have more options than most armies. Keep in mind, the units on the lower tiers can still see play, this is just focused more on the competitive side of things where you cut your losses quick.
Hey Jordan, can you do a PEMDAS for AoS? I feel like there is something to be gained for everyone by touching on how the formula for each turn is and what can be done. Rules like retreat and being able to charge back in is a concept that one can't search for, but it's a very power trait in the game. Same with Murder lust. Without an understanding of the basic core game formula of ability use in connection with the formula, a new player will be caught off by hidden play actions and will have no way to "source" that info in the book, because something like "retreat and charge" is not something in the basic rules, its a unique combination of doable actions.
Thank you for the video. Good insights. Although I'd disagree with the idea of "it's the best we have in our book" as qualifying for S tier. That is sort of a low bar to set. With a lot of reduced saves compared to 3rd edition, a lot of these things just aren't living long enough. A glass cannon that can't shoot is a bad cannon. Overall, I get the feeling that whoever wrote the rules for Skaven for this edition, really had little respect for the history of the army. A lot of the uniqueness was the wild and crazy, often self destructive things we could do. ArchWarlock power armor save, extra health, and overcharging halberd attack gone. Grey seer losing a casting level and now having a t-shirt save. Engineer and bombardier losing their casting. The list goes on, and on. Since 1993, grey seers were max level wizards, and jezzails were about the longest range unit in the game. Without a doubt, we have some of the best looking models in any game, now. But it is going to be a long 3 years in this edition. And with little promise we'll have something like our 3rd edition flavor back come 5th edition. Until then, I do look forward to more videos on how to make this Imperial Guard gunline army work.
I get it on the Rogors, I'm not personally going to run any, but a lot of people want melee options and they're the best we've got for damage. If I wanted to go melee I think mass Clanrats are still better, but that sort of playstyle isn't fun for me. Fingers crossed we get some points changes in the next update! I think we have some good warscrolls that are just pointed too high right now, bring a few of those down and we'll have pretty diverse build options. For now it's the guns.
@@warpfireminis So, more of a "this is what you're going to have to take if you want X" approach. I see what you mean now. I retract my criticism in the light of a good argument, sir! (and mass clanrats and imperial gun line is exactly what I'm doing now, but I kinda hate myself for it).
@@warpfireminis My clans custom lore is an offshoot of skryre and it feels like the jezzails caught a substantial nerf. I like the weapons teams changes and the stormfiends changes. I am also not super keen on them changing a lot of skryre heroes to not be wizards anymore, feels like a huge flavor loss. Lastly I just wish we had some buffs to all the hitting on 4s.
@@Befferson Jezzails definitely took a step back with thise one, but they're still okay! I think on the heroes they did pretty good on all of them other than the Bombardier; them being themed to buff specific units is pretty flavorful to me and then the Arch-Warlock is just the king of them all as he should be.
@@warpfireminis I for sure see your point, I think maybe I'm just slow to embrace change from how much I liked 3rd edition skaven. But in a way isn't skaven questioning change a bit thematic haha? Thanks for responding man, love your work!
Your an absolute legend, im new to Skaven, joined with the Skaven tide box and am currently painting up my 2k point army. I love your videos, its the best concise skaven content out there! 🫶🏼
Unfortunately this battle tome has awful internal balancing because of how overcosted so much of it is. Points adjustments on their own would really go a long way to fix a lot of issues with this book. It's still possible to play this faction and isn't in the miserable state that say FEC and SoB are currently. However it is a crying shame that so much of the newer units are just mediocre at best or hot garbage at worst. I do agree with most of your tier list though. With the exception of Rat Ogors. I'd put those in B tier, simply because they're too fragile and being rend 1 isn't going to do much against factions with good armour. Oh and I'd certainly put the scourgers in S tier as they really do hit hard. Also with so much cavalry in the meta right now, they are seriously going to help you here.
Rogors I totally understand, they're our best melee damage unit so I put them in S for us, but like I said in the video when you compare them to hammers in other armies they can't compete. I'm not running any in my lists, and generally don't think our melee units are the move.
@@warpfireminis It's a real shame we don't have access to a proper melee hammer anymore. Plague Censer Bearers fielded that role so well back in 3rd, but alas they got squatted; leaving nothing to replace them. Perhaps Krittok + Stormvermin could fill that slot one day? However both are simply just too overcosted right now. Also, Stormvermin seriously need to be 2 wounds each. It makes zero sense as to why Globadiers have 2 wounds and they don't.
Not gonna lie, this video made me pretty sad. I was super pumped and was planning on building a list with 24 Jazzails in it and just cackle like a mad man when I got to my shooting phase. Now I'm not sure how viable that is anymore. Dumping 1200 points into a sub-par units doesn't sound like something that wins games. Doesn't help that I already bought all the Jazzails I needed 🫠
The fact that Stormvermin were so close to greatness is depressing. I still think the army has too many units that are points heavy.
I think eventually Krittok and the Stormvermin will go down in points a little and see a resurgence! Maybe next update.
"What if we made clanrats, but worse"
It makes me so incredibly depressed, if they just either gave them the ability to benefit from their own ward they give out or had 2 health I think they would see significantly more play. Hell if they had 2hp and ward 5 I could think of some fun melee builds for skaven. Would they be the most competitive? No but they would be fun.
100%
most accurate tier list assesment for skaven I've seen so far! can't wait to get Thanquol!
I been waiting for your expertise. Thanks 🎉
Nice tier list! I sometimes worry that I’m a contrarian when I see others talk about skaven units and have takes I disagree with-but interestingly when I watch your stuff I am pretty much 100% in agreement- I can tell you actually play the rats! Personally hoping for improvements to warp-grinder in the future
Too bad my moulder bois are so expensive, not gonna stop me from using them though. Lose streak here we go! :D
Same! 😂
Glad I'm a narrative player. Win or lose drowning the enemy in kitbashed monsters with flamethrowers is going to be fun as hell.
@@zachschreck Yees!😍
I just started skaven and I have no idea where to even Begin with building an army. This was super helpful. Thank you!
seems like a waste of money no one plays here in the uSA
Vizzik being such a cool model makes me keep trying to run him in my predominantly clan rats + stormfiend lists, but its probably the right idea for me to keep him back to make more room for support.
Ive also been testing out acolytes and do find their 2 wounds and damage profile can get some solid work done, atleast against my buddy running gravelords.
Globadiers are soooo close! They're solid, but bring the points down and they can compete with our other options. Vizzik + Clanrats and Stormfiends can definitely build out some solid lists.
Wonderful tier list! I think the overarching theme is that Skaven, at large, are too expensive. You're paying premiums for meh abilities and recursion. Meanwhile, pretty much all the armies of renown look unplayable with the loss of Gnawhole, so you're paying the recursion tax without even getting the recursion. Hopefully we see some balance changes like decent point drops, give Jezzails at least their 3+ to hit and maybe, MAYBE give Stormvermin 2 wound models.
Excellent video, learned a lot but struggling to make lists at the moment! Looking forward to the next video
Very helpful video! Keep them coming!
just finished painting 2 warp lightning cannons and now im painting hellpit while listening. perhaps i am a few months late on the meta :D
There's nothing wrong with running some sub-optimal units if that's what sparks joy! You'll still be able to win plenty of games with a WLC and Hell Pit in a list.
@@warpfireminis Putting out Mortals and a big beefy feller isn't, like, auto-lose stuff. They're just not the most optimal choice. But, like, honestly, if you're running some preset meta list of only the most optimal units...you're only halfway playing the game *yourself*
I wouldn't worry. Collecting 40k taught me the meta is always changing. 1 day you are at the top of the lists, the next you are nerfed to the bottom, and vice versa.
Thanks for the video-it's been really helpful, especially since I don’t have as much time to play the game as I’d like. I noticed a lot of people talking about the Ratling Guns, and I didn’t quite understand why they were considered so strong, but the way you explained it really cleared things up. I might actually swap out my Jezzails, which is a bit of a shame. Games Workshop had us thinking Jezzails would be amazing for a few months, tempting players to buy two Skaventide boxes to get six of them, but then poof, a big nerf. It’s frustrating, especially since the book was written a while ago, so they must have known this would happen. Oh well, I printed my extra three Jezzails, so
to them. Haha.
Anyway, you brought up some great ideas. It’s a shame so many units are stuck in the F tier. I have to agree that the Brood Horror belongs there for now-there’s no way I’d bring it for 300 points, even though I love the model and pre-ordered it. It’s just been sitting in its box. I’ll probably wait six months for the points to drop. Too many cool models and interesting strategies are stuck in F tier.
I have slightly higher hopes for Vissik, though. I feel like you may have indirectly overlooked something about him. I agree that the rampage and warscroll prayer isn’t super effective, but the fact that he can pray and generate prayer points in your opponent’s turn without using a command point is huge. Plus, he can still use Magical Intervention (I think?). Doesn’t that mean he could pray up to four times per round, three without using a command point? You didn’t skip over the fact he can pray in the opponent’s turn, but you seemed to downplay its importance, focusing on how Death Frenzy isn’t great-which I agree with. But the rest of the prayer lore is quite strong. With three or four prayers per round and one round of rerolls, you can almost guarantee getting off Filth-Crust at 8 points regularly. That might not be enough to bump him to A tier, but I think you glossed over that extra value and focused too much on Death Frenzy.
For the Grey Seer and Thanquol, you mentioned they can reliably cast Skitterleap and Manifestations, but with Vissik, you didn’t emphasize how reliably he can get off Filth-Crust each turn. And consistently giving 40 Clanrats crit mortal wounds is definitely something that shouldn’t be overlooked! And I would argue, clanrats with crit mortals trumps Rat Ogors with potential damage. Still, great video, and thanks again!
If you ended up with extra Jezzails, just glue a couple extra barrels on there and call them Ratlings for now!
My issue with Vizzik is that our prayers are focused on buffing/debuffing infantry in melee combat, and without any movement tricks or real defense I don't think that's a consistent winning strategy in the current meta, especially when you compare our melee threats to everyone else's. Going into things like Lumineth, Tzeentch, Gitz, and so on, they just have the tools to blow up your Clanrats before they get to do much, or tie them up to where their mostly ineffective. Then on top all it takes is a single roll of 1 when you go to pray and your whole plan goes out the window.
Buffed Rogors are good for about 30 damage, buffed Clanrats are good for about 20; that said 40 wounds > 24 wounds so I'd personally run the Clanrats.
@@warpfireminis Ya.. You are right. I'm really just wishful thinking.. I want to use more of these new models. hahaha I'm a little disappointed that all these new things, but the stronger Skaven unit in my collection is 20 year old metal Ratling Guns :) and 85% of the new models are in B tier or lower. I'm really not sure what they are thinking. Hopefully some updates will fix it.
The good news is that the warscrolls themselves are good, GW will eventually get the points to a better place.
@@warpfireminis ya. I guess as Skaven players, we are used to waiting. :)
Best part of my Weds right here.
I agree Krittok is aggressively pointed. Not sure it would take much to help him move up the board though.
His abilities really shine with what's working for us (another clawstep even for a CP can be really helpful especially if you're running the VL Seer, Weapons Teams, Night Runners.)
His Warmaster is also intriguing as it can take the Priority Target heat off Thanquol or Vizzik (making his rampage potentially more impactful again without Priority Target working)
Thanks again for the great content. You're our secret weapon against the surface dwellers.
100% agree, if they drop his points down some he'll see play. The good news is that warscrolls usually stay the same and his is good, points they'll eventually get right over time!
Holy moly, I missed that part about Grinderfists on Stormfiends! Damn, that really makes them good!
I just went 2-1 at a local tournament with my skaven and I’m still pretty new to the faction, so videos like this have been super helpful to learn! Thank you for educating my clan-rat lookin ass.
The Warpgrinder feels like someone made a wish with a cursed monkey paw. Awesome new model, terrible rules
Can you imagine how upset the sculptors get when they see the rules for their beautiful new boi that’s just gone into production 😅
Hey man, thanks for the insight. Haven't really been playing over the summer, so nice to get some of your experience and knowledge. Solid takes on a lot of things. I was really curious if you would like the Doomwheel. Clearly not. Lol. I thought maybe on account of that I believe it can move out of combat...? If I understand correctly, causing mortal wounds on the way, and chasing wizards. If it works how I think seems fun to push right through enemy lines. However the combat profile is terrible 😅. I was really hoping for more out of the book. Most of the heroes just feel like tax. It's too bad.
I REALLY wanted the Doomwheel to work. I even tried a list with 5 of them in it to try and combo and grind up a bunch of mortal wounds, but at the end of the day it's difficult to proc their ability, the shooting profile doesn't do enough damage now that you can't overcharge the shots, and then the melee profile is abysmal. If you want one in a list to zoom around it can do that, but that's about it.
@@warpfireminis I was sad to hear about the Doomwheel but then REALLY happy I don't need to paint any more, ha!
i tryed your list idea with 3 buig guys today, i was scared because i habe so little units but man, the Teleporting all over the place and the power of 6 buffed Rattlingguns are awsome! thanks for the List conzept i would never tought to use 3 Big guys! keep up the Great Great Worke! Yes Yes 🙂
It's one that has a lot of tools, which to me makes it really fun to play. Glad to hear you enjoyed it!
Awesome video! Waiting for more tactics videos❤
YAY.. Excited about this video :)
Can’t wait for the day somebody paints a Skaven army to look like Mickey Mouse.
Between his rampage and the fight last spell, we do have the tools to make Death Frenzy work, it's just an incredible investment to make your 300-ish point unit fight twice
You're on it, there are ways to make it work, but at 750+ points for the combo it's hard to say that that's the move.
Not automatically getting first swing when it shifts to strikes last is yet one more complication in pulling that off too.
i think the best application of his goad is to hit a line with it, so they cant get every model of the unit in on Vizzik, wasting some of their attacks on top of the minus hit/wound so his 5+/5++ does enough. Plus if you slap warpgale down you give yourself the time to get that second fight in. But it's a lot of points of investment. Tho ive been able to take down pretty large enemies thanks to it
Yay, love the content.
Ive got 3 points that might be a bit controversal :)
First, I think 2 Greyseer are much better then Thanqual - it's harder to shoot both off, you get another unit to do BTs and they are effectively 2 casts with +2
The other is that I think the Master Moulder, while beeing bad by himself, is ok if you play into heavy Rat Ogor lists (give him the enhancement and you get back your +2 charge, then skitterleap him with 1 of the Grey Seers)
Also, I don't think Vizzik is good, for his point cost he is way too easy to shift - But I didn't get to test him yet. However I have a hard time justifying putting him in the list
If you haven't put Thanquol on the board, I'd say you need to give him a try. Two Grey Seers are great at casting a spell each in your turn only, and then that's it. They can't help you score any of the tactics outside of positional ones, they're a liability as far as giving up easy tactics to opponents, they don't do any damage, and by running two you're adding an extra drop. I like Grey Seers, but Thanquol just gets a lot done ESPECIALLY with his Warscroll spell, it's a game winner.
I don't think Rat Ogor heavy is the build that wins consistently for us, so I'm out on the MM. The charge bonus is something, but I'd rather have a spell cast.
Any advice on how to build a clanrat/rat ogor list?
HAHA great video, but you look mad in the pre video picture lol!! Thanks for great info as always
Mean mugging the AoS team after so many units fell into the F slot haha. I'll sneak a different one in there next time!
What weapon loadout for Boneripper do you guys usually run? 2 of each or all 4 warpfire throwers?
It doesn't matter anymore, just build him with what you think looks cool! His profile is the same no matter the loadout.
I want the master moulder to have his +3 to charge so badly. He's going on the shelf for a little while.
Idk which book is more competitive but definitely prefer the lasts one meta to this ones. I played 100 plague monks with bell and couple Jezzails and even thought I went 14-0 with it so it must have been a very good list I still felt very good after every win because I had to play very well and plan out extremely far ahead. Now with braindead 12 rattling guns in every army I’ve alr had a couple games that were over before they started which I didn’t have a single time last book.
They'll nerf the Ratlings eventually for sure, I'm with you there. With some points tweaks on the other stuff I think we can be a really interesting army.
Very interesting content as always! Question: given your love for Skaven, have you been tempted to try them in the Old World (assuming you have any interest in that system at all)? There is very little content in that area and having a highly proficient player input into it would surely generate an audience.
I haven't dabbled in the Old World, I really love and play a ton of Age of Sigmar so it's tough to find the time to be proficient and keep up with 2 games.
I'm fairly new to AoS, but a somewhat neat if incredibly points inefficient way to try to protect him in melee (doesn't solve the getting shot off the board problem unfortunately) is by having a Brood Terror shadow him into combat. Vizzik pops his -1 to hit and wound, BT pops his -1 to hit and suddenly a lot of models are going to be hitting on 5 ups wounding on 4s or 5s. With Vizzik forcing the enemy unit to hit him instead of BT you can pretty reliably get both of these effects off, both going off on 2s. It's not points efficient at all being almost half a list on its own, but it is kinda funny still
The -1 to hits won't stack, the max you can be is -1 to hit. It would help negate an all out attack though!
@@warpfireminis that's a shame, I thought I might have found something kinda cool. Thanks for correcting me and helping me understand the rules better!
I wish clan pestilens had some viability. Im brand new to wargaming, played skaven in warhammer 3 and always loved clan pestilens theme.
Nice - thanks.
So sad so many cool new models are F's.
Thanks for the rankings, I'm looking forward to more rat tricks, yes-yes
At least most of the warscrolls are good! They'll eventually get the points right and we'll be in a great spot.
No mention of krittoks double 3 claw steps move? I've been taking him just for that alongside warpseers +2 to clawstep moves.
His warscroll is solid, the double 3claw is useful, but costing a CP is a little bit of a letdown. If they drop his points we'll see him out and about a lot more.
Our best wizzard isnt thanquol… its the Grey seer ;)
Great Video as always🎉
Two casts at +1 > one cast at essentially a +2. Thanquol being able to cast DOUBLE the amount of spells and effectively casting in the opponent's turn even through the -1 make him the king!
@@warpfireminis Holy i recognized now, the Grey Seer cant 3d6 cast as M. Intervention :( Holy shit this breaks my Heart lol
Thanquol costs exactly like 3 Grey Seers.... so not really better. So they have 3 Spells on a 9+ @@warpfireminis
I'm still taking Thanquol every time. You don't want to add more drops, and you need units that can do damage/fight/score tactics other than just positional ones. The healing + damage + bonus to cast in the opponent's turn + his warscroll spell (this is the key one) are all just massive.
@@warpfireminis you really think drops is a Big Deal for Skaven ? I honestly dont worry about atm
Hey man, great video. I was wondering, what points should the brood terror cost in order to be good? Because as you said it is the thing that destroys the mini
To play it conservatively I'd say something like 260. That would make it where you at least consider bringing it and would keep it from being spammed.
@@warpfireminis Sounds fine. There are many thing that makes little sense to me in this battletome. Like globadiers having 2 hp and the stormvermin 1 and that the model have a gun and there are no shooting profile for them, the ratling cannons of the stormfiends not having crit 2 hits, thanquol being the only warpfire weapon that cannot shoot in combat, the absolute murder they did on the jezzails...
Great video. Curious at what points you feel is good for Brood Terror and Hellpit?
I'd say probably around 220!
Great video as always! Just wondering which manifestation lore are you playing with the list that it is in description? Thank you very much!:)
Right now I've been running Aetherwrought and think it's the move for my specific list!
Overall would you say that things in the f tier are actually that bad and will make life difficult, or are you coming from a perspective of "there's another unit that does the same role but better?" (e.g. warpblaster on its own or vs ratling guns)
It's definitely a situation where there's another unit that does the same thing, but way better. Then I'll add that you want to compare them to other armies as well to make sure they can compete, and most of those in the F tier just flat out can't.
Thank you very much. This was super informative and easy to watch.
It would be very helpful, if you show the picture of the unit you are talking about first (maybe a bit larger) and then place them at the end. This way also non Skavenplayers can understand what unit you are talking about atm.
I just started with Spearhead and my first 2K point army is done, of course, it's the rattsies! There are some points in this tier-list that I do not quite understand, like...how would you use Thanquol? You can not fight with him as you are risking killing of a hero / general and losing your Wizard, aka casting opportunity. Most armies can easily burst focus down a single target, no?
Vizzik makes more sense to me, he stays in the back behind his screen of Clanrats, brings Prayers, Spells and if the situation warrants it, Death Frenzy...
Anyway, I do have to admit that I only have close to no experience haha, so I'd be very happy if you could explain to me how to use Thanquol, or even better, what kind of Skaven army compositions would be good for a beginner!
Right now I'm running a casual shootie-shootie Skryre army type with Vizzik leading it.
It's actually the opposite of what you're thinking! The only thing Vizzik brings to the table are his prayers, which for the points just isn't enough. He's the piece that you can't throw into combat because he doesn't do enough damage, is too frail, and doesn't heal. Death Frenzy sounds nice, but on most of our infantry (Rogors aside) you just aren't going to do enough damage to wipe something good, then they're going to hit you and kill enough models where you second fight isn't super impactful.
Thanquol on the other hand has the better save (which gets even better with AoD), heals D3 at the end of every turn, can Skitterleap himself out of dangerous positions, and does about 12 damage between his shooting + rampage + combat which is super respectable. Then we add in his two spell casts at +1 and that's where his value really starts to ramp up. His warscroll spell to turn off commands is just MASSIVE preventing redeploys and all out defenses, so whatever unit you hit with it is just a sitting duck. Then with the second cast you can do Warpgale to make them fight last and just pile in a few units to make sure the job gets done.
@@warpfireminis Hm...okay, but then what do you bring as a priest? All other units are either too expensive, or useless, no? If you got not priests then you lose a huge chunk of power of the Skaven Army I think. Also...you are starting to convince me on Thanquol...I'm bit sad that the Grey Seer on top is the old model, but he still looks very cool.
@@vinczeszilard5155 The current "best" lists we have are built around Ratling Guns, so we just don't bother bringing a Priest at all. The prayers are good, but you need to build heavy infantry to make them work with units of 40 Clanrats, reinforced Stormfiends/Rogors, and so on to make it worth it. A pack of 20 Clanrats with -1 to be wounded is still going to die to all of the shooty meta armies and most of the really good melee units anyways. Then damage-wise the Clanrats with all the mega buffs are still coming up short of Ratlings who can do it at range with no risk.
@@warpfireminis well, damn. Need to get ratling guns and the big guy then, I was looking at them anyway and I love the idea of the Hidden Weapon Team ability. Well, let's see if I can get them cheap somewhere.
Love the list you shared! If you didn’t have the Warpseer but access to everything else what would you take?^^
If I didn't run the Warpseer I'd replace him with an Arch-Warlock and 3 more Ratling Guns OR a Grey Seer, change the 3 Ratlings to Scourgers, and add 3 more Scourgers.
@@warpfireminis Thank you for the info! 😊
hey, i probably need some help with this, im writing this after a game i had with some new models.
i tried krittok with 40 stormvermin, 6 ratling guns, 6 rogors, 40 clanrats, grey seer and the plaguepack and while i knew that i wont be an optimal or very good list i got bodied so insanely hard. i lost 56% of my army in a single turn after both players did litteraly nothing turn 1.
im just baffled as i thought i could be able to do at least something. i wasnt able to score battle tactics, kill any full unit or tank any damage without my entire unit getting whiped (except clanrats, wohoo).
i was trying to change stuff the last hour but the more i tinker around the more i find myself with lists that are probably better but i simply dont want to play them. alot of shooting skryre seems great but its so boring imo. list building itself is also kind of hard imo with all of the restrictions that we have. all of the heroes with their special units and the sub factions which just benefit a portion of your list unless you go all in one direction which is again, pretty boring imo.
i like a mixed force and i also just love the stormvermin models aswell as krittoks so id love to use them in any way, even if they arent meta. id love to use vizzik aswell but hes so expensive (450 for him while stuff like karazai is 480 is a joke imo) and against most armies that i play against he will be just picked of by shooting instantly so id waste 450p for nothing.
maybe im just bad ofc but i dont know what to do atm. i lost all of my exitement for the new models and the army because, at least at the moment, it feels like either i play them in a way which i dont like or im going to pretty much waste an entire evening because all i do is picking up rats from the table.
Take a few pictures of your next game of deployment, round 1, round 2, and so on and e-mail them to me! It's tough to say exactly what went wrong without seeing how it all went down. The big thing to remember is that none of our units can take a hit; if they hit your Stormvermin, Clanrats, Rogors, Ratlings, ANYTHING, it's just flat-out dead. We need to put screens in the front, let them die, and then counter-punch the crap out of them quick. That's part of why I really love the Deceiver for us, he's the one thing in our army that can get charged and then just scoot away and stay safe.
@@warpfireminis i really appreciate that, thank you so much. is there any other way to support you? as im living in the eu i cant order minis from your store but i really like your stuff and would love to support your work. you are the skaven guy on youtube that i was looking for.
ive always used the deceiver from when i got him so i just wanted to try something else but quickly regretted it. wouldve loved to take him in the first place but stuff is so expensive that i didnt have any points for that left while also wanting to try my new units., he will be in future lists for sure as i love the model, rules and eshin itself.
i think i overspend on damage units and just ran 40 clanrats, which was in hindsight too little, however im not sure how many i need, i have 80 but i thought that 600p of my army being screens is too much, ill try 60 soon, aswell as vizzik.
i didnt screen my rogors because i had nothing left and honestly stormvermin and krittok dont seem super worth, i will take a unit of 20 just for fun but i dont think that they need krittok as they get +1 wound from the prayer you want to give them anyway and 40 was just too many.
i think i need to really get more into the new movement stuff for the army as i was playing other stuff the past months and need to get used to them to get the most out of the army.
Right now I'm running 40 Clanrats and 10 Night Runners for bodies, it's a little lean, but it's been working! Krittok hopefully goes down some points in some future updates, and then I'm with you on leaning into the movement stuff. For me, it seems like the identity they're pushing for Skaven right now is movement tricks + shooting, so building lists that focus on those seems like the move. We can do melee, but imo we just get outclasses there by other armies.
As far as support, just tell your friends or share some videos! One day I might do a class or something along those lines, but for now we're just having a good time doing what we're doing!
@@warpfireminis hey, i wanted to make some pics to send you from my last 2 games but i won both of them rather decisively. i leaned into the movement shooty style. super hyped again for the army though, i feel like i got alot better at using all of the movement stuff, im just still struggling to play around double turns as i often get caught from it. i just cant handle it most of the times, with skaven its better than with other armies caus of their mobility but im still struggling, this could also be a good video, just a suggestion though.
took 12 ratling guns, deceiver, thanquol, 2x20 clanrats, plaguepack and the engineer, maybe not ideal but i dont play at a super competetive enviroment.
the list worked really well for me but i think i have to replace at least 1 unit of ratling guns, rolling all of those dice seemed fun at first but it got annyoing rather quickly. do you have any recommendations for that? maybe just 6 jezzails or maybe some rogors? i feel like it needs to be a hammer unit, otherwise id lack the damage to kill some armies.
i was also impressed by the engineer, while he did not buff any jezzails i used him to skitter leap around to get some tactics while also getting some decent damage to characters or hammer units, maybe hes a bit expensive for that but it never felt wasted that he went somewhere for the objective because he was always able to shoot something with 3-6 dmg.
thanquol was something i picked just because you recommended him and he was great, he kind of does it all, such a swiss army knife unit.
deceiver is obviously awesome, by far my favourite unit in AoS. i just miss his shooting immunity and strike first but i guess you cant have it all. i just whish he wouldnt have the redeploy ability as i almost never have any other eshin units and even if, they are not close to him so either replacing it with something else or removing it and making him cheaper would eb great. maybe im missing out on some tricks there though.
@@biowiener7825 Sounds like you're getting things figured out! If you wanted to drop 6 of the Ratlings, I'd recommend trying out a squad of 4 Doom-flayers next! The Ratlings are the best thing we have, but the Flayers can give you similar damage, just in the combat phase.
For the Engineer he's probably not the "best" but if you're having fun with him that's what matters, if I was going that style of fun I might do a Bombardier instead just for a bigger spike potential. Then for the Plaguepack I like Night Runners better, they can help out a little with the double turn by being a better screen, and with their pre-game move + clawsteps you can sometimes pin an enemy in to slow them down, which also helps lessen the impact of the double.
Great and valuable content as always. Could you share the link of this STier ?
It is a little disappointing to learn that most of the stuff in the skaventide box isn't that good. I'm new to AoS, I've just picked up the box a couple weeks ago, and I've been painting up the minis. Of course, now I'm trying to figure out which direction I should go post-skaventide minis. Verminlord? Ratling guns? Stormfiends?
From the Skaventide box you can still get a lot of value out of the Clanrats, Grey Seer, Rogors, and Jezzails! It's easy enough to add an extra barrel or two to those Jezzails and call them Ratlings, or just proxy them as Ratlings with your friends since they're the same base size. I'd start out with adding Thanquol personally!
NEW VIDEO LETS GOOOOO 🐀
Where are you finding these points? I see nothing in the battletome for them.
They're on the Age of Sigmar app for free, or the Downloads section of the Warhammer Community site!
Would you consider doing tierlists for other armies?
As the new battletomes drop I'll try to keep up with them! I have every Sigmar army, so it'll just be if we have the time to get them all knocked out/how fast they release them.
Great video. But why is Warlock Bombadier F Tier? His shooting actually works very good on infantry when I used it on the tabletop. it one shot infantry units to oblivion in 1 shooting phase even without buffs. And he is a great cheaper alternative to the other Skryre Heroes to still be able to boost Skryre units
Boosting the WLC and Warpblaster isn't something I value since those two units just aren't great right now. The Arch-Warlock saves you a CP every round and can cast a spell too, he's just a lot better. Our spells are great, so even something like a Grey Seer would be better.
Thank you
Hi could you do some things on Sylvaneth please I am thinking about starting them, thanks to anyone who reads this.
Didn’t the arch warlock deny the warp cannon when it overcharged?? I think the ability the engineer have is “more more warp power” think that deny the overcharged ability.
May not be S tier should be either b or c tier imo
The Arch-Warlock just makes it to where you can Covering Fire for free, it doesn't deny the overcharge.
@@warpfireminis yea I just read it and it was for the stormcage my bad
Being the first book of the edition really has its down sides. We can see through the indexes there are rules that are applied to other factions that are just flat improvements over what we have. I think Skaven are very fun right now, but internal balance is off by a lot . And we are not due for another points change for 3 months
Seems hard to give different roles to all these shooting units. Some are always going to be almost strictly worse, and all you do whole edition is chase the one that is currently more efficiant given cureent points. Maybe some of them should be less damaged oriented and more tech-y/synergy focused. Like, the best shooting should probably require a lot of setup with support pieces and the way you play...and then more generic shootera is less powerful but less payoff.
Please post more batreps, these tier list just make me sad 😅
hoestly as a massive skaven fan, I think this battletome needs some serious revision. The army just seems so frail. And i see abilities and I'm like "cool but other armies can do this but better, or with a bonus". very disappointed. the fact that over half our monsters/deamons are absolutely useless is astonishing
It's tough to see most of the new stuff be so horrible right now. In the next balance update, hopefully they'll haul Skaven out of the bottom of the meta finally. They were at the bottom in 3e too. It's like nothing was learned. What the heck are they doin over there?
The problem is that the Ratlings are so good we're likely going to see our winrate spike up a bit. I'm with you though, if they can drop the points down on some of the other stuff we'll be in a good place.
Does anyone else think it’s insane that the ONLY faction locked in the app is Skaven? I mean I’m glad it’s only them… but wtf
Still super bothers me that they make bad warscroll stats like Stormvermin jump the line on all other infantry units, going from 4+/5+ to 3+/4+ or something. I can't remember exactly, but it's just unnecessary. They already have better save, better rend, why do the hit and wound become Stormcast level? Like they do all this talk about model balance, and then throw it out the window.
im kinda waiting 3 months to get back into skaven, i feel like so many units are so close to good.
i'm waiting for a doomwheel to arrive, sad to hear its F tier. model is awesome and classic skaven
I cant believe you put rogers s-tier. They're glass hammers.
Really quite disappointed by how this book missed the mark on almost all those obviously awesome looking Skryre units :/
So what you're telling me is that my Skaventide box is useless outside of Spearhead. 😢 I'm new to this. Are most Spearhead boxes full of units that aren't great outside of Spearhead? I was planning on getting the other Skaven Spearhead box but now it seems im better off just buying individual units if im wanting to play outside of Spearhead.
Grey Seer and Clanrats are fantastic, Rat Ogres aren't bad. As starting sets go it's better than most.
@Engra_ You're right. There are a couple of good units. Just sucks that there's not much reason to bring the engineer, clawlord on gnawbeast, jezzails, or warpblaster to an army. I really like how the warpblaster looks too.
I still think the Skaventide box is great! Clanrats, Grey Seers, and Rogors are all solid, and Jezzails + Engineer still have play, Ratlings are just a bit better right now. The only real loss is the Warpblaster, super cool model, but hard to justify it's points compared to everything else we have; sometimes you have to live with something just being cool.
its tragic that the Acoylte Globadiers are not very good especially cause they are one of the coolest infantry unit skaven has
they can still pop out a bucket load of damage so dont give up on them yet!
the best units is the one you are able to find and buy cause wtf GW jeezus!
What is this, a tier list for ants?!
Oh, rats. Okay. Still, could've made the template a bit larger.
Is it normal for a book to have this many F tier units? As a new Skaven player this video was pretty depressing ngl
They definitely missed a little bit on our points, but with 16 units in the S/A slots I'd say we probably have more options than most armies. Keep in mind, the units on the lower tiers can still see play, this is just focused more on the competitive side of things where you cut your losses quick.
You Should add a super like here so I can donate, great video
Hey Jordan, can you do a PEMDAS for AoS? I feel like there is something to be gained for everyone by touching on how the formula for each turn is and what can be done. Rules like retreat and being able to charge back in is a concept that one can't search for, but it's a very power trait in the game. Same with Murder lust. Without an understanding of the basic core game formula of ability use in connection with the formula, a new player will be caught off by hidden play actions and will have no way to "source" that info in the book, because something like "retreat and charge" is not something in the basic rules, its a unique combination of doable actions.
I'll add that to my list! Something just covering common phrases / terms used would definitely be useful for new players.
Thank you for the video. Good insights. Although I'd disagree with the idea of "it's the best we have in our book" as qualifying for S tier. That is sort of a low bar to set. With a lot of reduced saves compared to 3rd edition, a lot of these things just aren't living long enough. A glass cannon that can't shoot is a bad cannon.
Overall, I get the feeling that whoever wrote the rules for Skaven for this edition, really had little respect for the history of the army. A lot of the uniqueness was the wild and crazy, often self destructive things we could do. ArchWarlock power armor save, extra health, and overcharging halberd attack gone. Grey seer losing a casting level and now having a t-shirt save. Engineer and bombardier losing their casting. The list goes on, and on. Since 1993, grey seers were max level wizards, and jezzails were about the longest range unit in the game.
Without a doubt, we have some of the best looking models in any game, now. But it is going to be a long 3 years in this edition. And with little promise we'll have something like our 3rd edition flavor back come 5th edition.
Until then, I do look forward to more videos on how to make this Imperial Guard gunline army work.
I get it on the Rogors, I'm not personally going to run any, but a lot of people want melee options and they're the best we've got for damage. If I wanted to go melee I think mass Clanrats are still better, but that sort of playstyle isn't fun for me.
Fingers crossed we get some points changes in the next update! I think we have some good warscrolls that are just pointed too high right now, bring a few of those down and we'll have pretty diverse build options. For now it's the guns.
@@warpfireminis So, more of a "this is what you're going to have to take if you want X" approach. I see what you mean now. I retract my criticism in the light of a good argument, sir! (and mass clanrats and imperial gun line is exactly what I'm doing now, but I kinda hate myself for it).
Commentstone for the Great Horned Algorithm!
I was hoping youd talk about this, as a long time skaven player ive been pretty dissappointed
What part left you wanting more? I've always enjoyed playing the big rats, so so far,I've enjoyed being able to have 3 out and about.
@@warpfireminis My clans custom lore is an offshoot of skryre and it feels like the jezzails caught a substantial nerf. I like the weapons teams changes and the stormfiends changes. I am also not super keen on them changing a lot of skryre heroes to not be wizards anymore, feels like a huge flavor loss. Lastly I just wish we had some buffs to all the hitting on 4s.
@@Befferson Jezzails definitely took a step back with thise one, but they're still okay! I think on the heroes they did pretty good on all of them other than the Bombardier; them being themed to buff specific units is pretty flavorful to me and then the Arch-Warlock is just the king of them all as he should be.
@@warpfireminis I for sure see your point, I think maybe I'm just slow to embrace change from how much I liked 3rd edition skaven. But in a way isn't skaven questioning change a bit thematic haha? Thanks for responding man, love your work!
Fantastic faction... just sadly put in the wrong game.
Your an absolute legend, im new to Skaven, joined with the Skaven tide box and am currently painting up my 2k point army.
I love your videos, its the best concise skaven content out there! 🫶🏼
Unfortunately this battle tome has awful internal balancing because of how overcosted so much of it is. Points adjustments on their own would really go a long way to fix a lot of issues with this book. It's still possible to play this faction and isn't in the miserable state that say FEC and SoB are currently. However it is a crying shame that so much of the newer units are just mediocre at best or hot garbage at worst.
I do agree with most of your tier list though. With the exception of Rat Ogors. I'd put those in B tier, simply because they're too fragile and being rend 1 isn't going to do much against factions with good armour. Oh and I'd certainly put the scourgers in S tier as they really do hit hard. Also with so much cavalry in the meta right now, they are seriously going to help you here.
Rogors I totally understand, they're our best melee damage unit so I put them in S for us, but like I said in the video when you compare them to hammers in other armies they can't compete. I'm not running any in my lists, and generally don't think our melee units are the move.
@@warpfireminis It's a real shame we don't have access to a proper melee hammer anymore. Plague Censer Bearers fielded that role so well back in 3rd, but alas they got squatted; leaving nothing to replace them. Perhaps Krittok + Stormvermin could fill that slot one day? However both are simply just too overcosted right now. Also, Stormvermin seriously need to be 2 wounds each. It makes zero sense as to why Globadiers have 2 wounds and they don't.
Not gonna lie, this video made me pretty sad. I was super pumped and was planning on building a list with 24 Jazzails in it and just cackle like a mad man when I got to my shooting phase.
Now I'm not sure how viable that is anymore. Dumping 1200 points into a sub-par units doesn't sound like something that wins games.
Doesn't help that I already bought all the Jazzails I needed 🫠
Same base size as the Ratlings, glue a couple extra barrels on there and blast away! With 24 you're already a madman, might as well go all-in.