My guy go and watch it! It is so hype! Qudan's (2017 world champion) team vs an All-japanese all gigas team. either here ruclips.net/video/rEc81V0I0fA/видео.html or here ruclips.net/video/Q-BxEADpqTE/видео.html (Aris (avoidingthepuddle) restream)
The Korea skater is a good example of putting pressure on the weakest link. Nothing good comes out of that. If you identified your team's weakest link help them improve pressuring them will just lead them to quitting or collapsing when it counts the most. It will also lead to internal issues and the team will end up clumping to subgroups rather being a single body.
Agreed, plus leaving them behind during the action event certainly didn't help matters. Maybe it was hard to be aware of it in the moment (she was behind them after all) but it almost sounded like the rest of the team just straight up didn't care and kept on trucking. Obviously she already fucked up by falling behind in the first place but a big part of recovering from mistakes is getting out of your own head and I can't imagine how terrifying it was in that moment to fall so far behind, she probably couldn't have caught back up even if she wanted to once that kind of anxiety set in. Certainly training is going to be one of the most important things but they probably also would have had a better result if they whole team slowed down a bit and then focused on recovering as a group when that weakest link does break.
Yeah those other broads just had a temper tantrum that cost their team more than just a loss. It's the last member's time that counts. So instead of trying to salvage what seconds they could by dragging her they just threw the game in favor of displaying their own personal performance that's not even being evaluated in this discipline. May not be bullying but it's unsportsmanlike as AF.
@@bennymountain1 I didn't like it either, but we've all been part of a team with "that person" who just doesn't hack it, and it destroys moral just as, if not, even faster. Sometimes you have to be willing to lose a leg, if only so you can crawl to safety.
I was the weakest player on my school’s (GA Tech) Melee crew when we made national finals. Not gonna lie, having supportive teammates helped me play some of the best Melee of my career, and having friends to share the loss in grands with made it hurt way less. This video is spot-on.
I think that, at least for me, the magic of teams would kinda go away if it was the only type of competition available in the FGC. Part of why i like watching teams so much is because its cool and interesting to see the team dynamic between 2 opposing teams of master-class players. Its almost like a vs game where you can bring to life your dream team. I think if it became the standard, that type of charm would be a little less dazzling. Its only because we see these players in a strictly 1 on 1 environment almost all the time that we can appreciate teams
I like playing in team tournaments more cause it feels like hanging out with your buddies but with maximized hype. And I like watching Singles cause that's like, the whole fantasy of Fighting games, right? Some badass arriving on the scene, bodying everyone and going home with that trophy.
Team games are cool to watch but I don't like playing them because when you win in such a game, there's a chance that the win has nothing to do with your skills or gameplay. I've seen way too many esports games where a noob gets a free win because he was carried by a teammate with superior skill and people bitching in a loss because their teammates are bad. I like the fgc because it forces you to have a hard look at yourself so you can objectively admit to yourself your skill level and you have nobody to blame for your loss.
@@r.c.beringuela2426 There's a chance that you won in a solo game because your opponent messed up or overestimated you and played incorrectly. Which would mean you only one because of your opponents misfortune not your own skill. That's an okay opinion to have, but not a solid one.
You opponents overestimating you or messing up is part of the game. It's just a tell that you're better than them. In a moba or fps game, there's someone to pick up your slack in case you messed up. In a fighting game, a single mistake could spell your defeat. I had so many losses due to messing up my combos and I had only myself to blame for my losses. Those losses taught me that my execution wasn't good enough and that I had to up my execution so I won't mess up my inputs.
@@r.c.beringuela2426 Not necessarily true. You can be facing any opponent in a 1v1 game who has a higher execution frequency, uses more advanced and basics strategies alike with consistency. Clearly can outplay you with ease. But made enough mistakes in which you came off with a lucky win(s). That doesn't mean you are better than them. There's also the fact that some players at higher levels might not have fully grasped how to beat lower level player meta. That's certainly a thing, when a player advances too quickly without taking out the time to understand how the meta shifts. You're not wrong, but it's not that simple.
To be fair it was an exciting moment for him and she was behind him. It would be easy not to notice. But yeah that probably felt a little awkward for her.
Funny enough, Overwatch has the problem of being too much of a team game. If one person is being sub-optimal in hero choice or performance, it cripples the whole team, which is super frustrating and creates a very salty competitive community. Often matches come down to which team falls apart first, which is not fun. The best team games allow not only teamwork (specially with random players), but the ability to still have an individual impact.
It's also why Heroes of the Storm is a bad game for showcasing big individual player skill. Individual players and their abilities are intentionally weak to prevent even 1 Vs 1 combat from being viable when time to kill and damage per hero is so low, it forces working together or teamfights to make any sort of progress, also all xp rewards are split between the team hugely reducing a single player from becoming much stronger from their individual successful play. The big skillfull plays from star players that you see in League and Dota simply do not exist in HotS, making the game much less popular as a result.
@@cattysplat Which really speaks to a sadly human need for ego-stroking on the part of players and idol-worship on the part of the audience. Still, a good player can most definitely impact the course of a HotS game - just not to the extent of single-handedly carrying a team of retards. I honestly feel like HotS is a case of 'not the game we want, but the game we need'.
@@HellecticMojo Nah. The name Fio might be a bit hard for people who haven't played the games in a long time to remember, but the series as a whole has a decent following.
I think singles offers some dynamics that can't be had in teams, so I would be mad if they banned it, but I would still probably watch it, just not as much really.
Agree the drama of single is so much more like an underdog grinding there way through a tournament of killers. Team events have there place but they shouldnt replace solo
I still remember Gamerbee's grind during the last SF4 EVO. He was the heroic underdog who slayed all the demons only to fail at grand finals probably due to a controller malfunction on his opponent's part. That shit was dramatic and I almost cried at that.
@@r.c.beringuela2426 that 2015 USF4 bracket was the most hype thing ive ever watched. All the big names falling through out the bracket. Gamerbees run was so awesome that whole top at 8 was amazing plays after amazing plays. Poor gamerbee he beat all his demons only to lose in such a shitty way. The emotion after was something special that would be lost in team format
I would drop the FGC hobby instantly if the FGC becomes a purely group format. Games like moba games or FPS games are team based affairs that that hugely dominate the esports scene. I need the FGC to satisfy my single player competition itch.
I would hate, but still watch, if every tournament turned into purely 3v3 or 5v5s. If that became the sole format of competition money would become too big of a factor. The biggest sponsors would buy the biggest players, and of the winning team maybe only 3 or 4 of the players would even get to play. It also means that the BEST players wouldn't get to play against the BEST, as they would be stacked together. On a side note, I really love watching team tournaments the way it is now. Although I didn't know anyone from the all-Gigas team I was rooting my ass out for them. So much character and identity can be built around friends getting together to play for the win. Awesome video as always, probably one of my personal favorites. You are like a modern story-teller or a scribe to the FGC. Well spoken, well informed and sharp as a knife. Incredible work.
I don't know about other games, but in Smash we call this format "crew battles" and I honestly find it super fun. Head-to-head competition is hype, but there's something special about being able to celebrate a win or mourn a loss with a group of friends that you definitely don't get with a normal match. I don't know if I'd want to replace normal matches with this format as a viewer - a normal bracket still holds a lot of excitement for me - but as a player it's super fun.
I love both forms of play; in all honesty. There's just something really cool about watching matches between 1v1, and watching squads going up against other squads in team formats. I don't think I'd like one going away; in favor of the other, though.
To answer the ending question, that would be a terrible idea. There are rarely times when removing options is a better thing for a community. The team dynamic is good for team players, but not everybody is a team player. This much was even illustrated in the video itself with the whole deal with the skaters. Imagine people who are like that in nature, but knowingly avoid teaming up because of this now forced into that kind of space due to a lack of options. They not only have to experience that feeling, but also become outed for this behavior, even if they've thus far done a good job co-existing in spite of this issue. Or what about the other side of the spectrum? Those with incredible anxiety about holding others back. Being in a team can enable those with impostor syndrome to a dangerous degree, because their failures and perceived incompetence are no longer theirs alone to bare in their mind. I know it, because I live it. I may not be a big-time esports heavyweight fighting for cash prizes, but I do like me some Leauge of Legends. At least, in theory. I actually get very anxious about playing it and this predisposition hampers my ability to enjoy my time with it. The issue being that I hate being the weakest link. This is doubly so, because I quite literally am the weak link of my group, both in experience and in skill. Because of this, I dread failure more than if I was just playing Granblue Versus, because when I fuck up and lose lane, everyone's game becomes harder and the feeding enemies got makes it harder to rebound. Then, even if I perform adequately and even if the victory was a crushing one, I still maintain it, because it's easier to say that everyone else did better. Another lane pushed harder, the support and jungler did their part better, no matter the excuse, as long as I was the one being carried. Because of this, I couldn't bare to enter a team tournament. I would be a stick in the mud putting team spirit down and it would be hell on my mental health. I couldn't imagine ever wanting to go to any fighting game events if being in a team was a mandate.
if the FGC dropped 1v1s in favor of team matches, I would move on to a new genre. The biggest appeal for me coming from team-based games was being able to improve consistently and hold myself accountable for the outcomes. It's an interesting video, but personally I don't find team sports entertaining at all.
To a certain degree that still holds true even if fighting games turn into a team sport. It is still 1vs1 in the end. All your matches are dictated by your own performance.
@@ryllian1 true but the odds aren't fair if your team mates are bad. If you're the anchor and every match all of your teammates get knocked out with only you to win the whole things it's quite different than 5 matches with Bo3 style.
If DBFZ did this Japan would be like unstoppable xD Kaz + Go1 + Dogura dream team. In the west I think the best we could muster is Sonic + Hook + ... Nakkiel? Or maybe Chris G or Appologyman as the last (or maybe replace Hook with one of them). Unless the guy who won Smash Evo and mained A. 21 joins the team. I forget his name. It'd be hype though, but I feel like the East would have the best team which that would kinda be where the competition goes, you'd have top tier characters defining events but also top tier players that would define the tournament scene and realistically if you don't have at least 2 players who either are or can hold a candle to the top players then you're kinda rip. And since the top players are trying to win, they are heavily incentivised to team up together and make dream teams to blow everyone else out through attaining a monopoly on Skill so to speak. In some competitive envirornments where the number of highly skilled consistently topping players is small, it can create situations where 1 or 2 teams really matter while the rest are just there hoping for a fluke. I'd still be suuuuuper hyped to see such an event happening though. Don't mind me, just dropping an uninformed opinion XD there's probably more teams that would matter than those 2 and depending on how the event is run it could be more possible for upsets to happen because seeding such an event would be awkward.
There's a book on life philosophy called "Extreme ownership". One of the points made there is that underperforming teammates are also your responsibility and you have to do what you can to help them improve instead of using them as an excuse for your failure or straight up giving up and quitting in your case.
Teams are a great supplement to singles, but singles will always be the main draw of fighting games. That's the thing that separates fighting games from other esports: the 1v1 nature.
Another fantastic video, always love how well organized and clear the points you make are. This is my favorite channel on youtube, always looking forward to new videos, great job Gerald!
I get so pissed with this topic. Being part of a team is sooo much more than "blaming others for your loses". Playing with a team you're REALLY comfortable with gives out an amazing feeling you can't even compare both competitions. Plus, to be able to make your team more than the sum of its members, by teamworking and sharing things is just beautiful.
1:32 Simple solution to this: automatically rotate team members each round, even if they won their match. For example, in the team setup you showed, after the first round of Ryu vs Ibuki, he would be rotated out for Ken, who would play the second round against Sean, then Chun-Li against Remy. Then loop back to the start until one team is empty. That way, Chun-Li doesn’t get left out because her teammates did all the work.
I wouldn't mind if team FGC events got bigger. The thing I like most about fighters is the 1v1 style of it, and I don't think a sequence of 1v1 matches take away from it. While having a team can increase pressure on one person and lead to infighting like you said in the video, I think it would be more fun for competitors and audiences; especially with team games monopolising Esports at the moment, it would probably also lead to an increase in viewership which is great! On the other hand, it would make gauging skill levels of players much harder, but then again- thats what grudge and money matches are for.
I don’t think we should replace individual with team based FGC tournaments but it’d be nice to have some more of the latter, they’re really fun to watch
Pure competition is far superior than team games. After i got into fighting games, I never looked back at games like LoL, CS:GO, or Overwatch which I used to play all the time. In fighting games, I have more variables under my control, and whether or not I win is completely dependent on me.
The beauty of fighting games is in the 1v1. That's what really got me. And if you find a player on your level just going at it, it can go on for hours.
That study on competition you linked had some pretty surprising results. I hate team games. Every time I lose (or win!) in Overwatch, I have *zero* clue whether it was because I played poorly and basically turned the game into a 5v6 (or really well), or it was my team that threw (or carried). It took me like 70 hours of play before I was capable of really figuring out when I made (some) mistakes, when I did the right plays, whether I was playing my hero (somewhat) correctly in a game or not. I know in terms of a competitive multiplayer game with a dedicated base playing over years, 70 hours doesn’t seem like a lot. But imagine there was a singleplayer game that had a tutorial section that lasted 70 hours, and every time you failed in that tutorial section you couldn’t even tell if it was your fault or some outside factors. At least in fighting games, even when I have no clue what mistakes I’m making when I’m getting my ass handed to me, I know for a fact it is no ones fault but my own.
The only thing that concerns me in terms of shifting to only playing with teams, is you will have people travelling alone to some events, and they won't be able to enter because they have no one to team up with. Not saying I'm against the team format, but I'm against eliminating the singles format
man, these team battles are so much fun, my most memorable one i joined was Let's Go Baltimore Crew Battles. I thought i was gonna suck, but the team i was put in gave me so much encouragement and i loved it, felt way more positive and did better in said tournament
I've won a local by myself and I've lost a local with a team and honestly having teammates was so much more fun. just being able to share that experience and cheer each other on was awesome
I won't say this often, but I think Smash does this the best. They don't just play team competitions by games, but by stock. That way each team member can contribute either a little or a lot, but will almost never sweep the whole team. This also means that a team that is only slightly worse in general than the other won't get straight bodied by losing the final rounds.
I was surprised when I learned that other team formats don't function the same way Smash does it. It provides ever player on the team a chance to make an impact without letting the absolute best players completely body entire teams. It's near perfect.
And it serves for the most insane comebacks. Armada and Android vs Leffen and Ice comes instantly to mind as one of, if not the best 2v1 comeback in smash history.
I've been shouting to the high-heavens for the past 8-9 years that Fighting Games will forever remain a niche genre, particularly in the esports space, until someone develops a team-based, multiplayer fighting game from the ground up and MARKETS the game as a team-based fighting game. Something simultaneous would be preferable but not necessary. The fact that it seems like the old-guard FG developers haven't even ATTEMPTED something of this nature up until this point boggles my mind. I know there have been Team Modes in FGS forever, but they're treated like bullet points on a box, instead of being played up as a compelling feature, so they're often treated as such, by the competitive community and casual community alike. Fighting Games as a genre should be WAY bigger than they currently are. They're niche-ness is completely nonsensical and a result of an aging community of old-guard publishers and developers refusing to take innovative risks and not being paying attention to what's currently happening in the market.
Thanks for bringing up this topic Gerald. Some of the most hyped I’ve been was watching the Canada Cup 5v5 tournaments in both USFIV and SFV. With that said, I doubt the 1v1 would be able to leave bc it also provides hype and it can definitively show who the best is. P.S. I FADC’d into video click
Hey, I just found your channel and BOY! am I in love with it! I'm not even a huge lover of fighting games, but your dedication to make such an amazing content is definitely making me come back for much more! Keep it up! :D
Great vid as always! Interesting note: When I played on TESPA’s Hearthstone tourney for my school, the requirement was that every deck/player had to win, requiring every member to participate. It’d be cool to see this implemented somewhat (On a big scale)
No, having to worry about teammates is the reason I stopped playing team games and moved on to fighting games. Teammates are just another luck factor that you can't control for yourself. Sometimes they help you, sometimes they drag you down. It's random. I only want my skill to matter, nothing else.
Read the title as tennis before clicking. Thought it was uncharacteristic, but worth a watch. Upon starting the video, re read the title, and suddenly everything made a lot more sense
The Team format should have the rule: "Once a player wins a match, they can no longer play anymore." so it forces everyone on the team to be able to score at least 1 win for victory, and prevents a team hiding behind a monster of a player who can single handily carry people who don't deserve to be on the team
But then when a team gets a streak of wins, they're guaranteed to win, making the remaining matches redundant. That's arguably worse. The last player should have the chance of bringing it back
@@YadonTheCat at any point a team can switch someone out to someone who hasnt won yet. But the point being weak players love team games because there is always someone else to blame, and if they are on a winning team, they get carried to a level they dont deserve. Its like a bench warmer who gets multiple champsionship wins because the rest of the team is carrying, it makes no sense in a 1v1 format to not have everyone prove their worth. If you cant nab 1 win vs 5 people you dont deserve to be on the team
Doom2Guy I think he means that instead of knocking someone out who loses, you eliminate the people that win. So the winning team is the team that gets all their members to win a game before the other team can. Personally I don’t like this way because it reduces the chance of some crazy upset/comebacks, but I see his point that it does make the competition more fair.
i disagree because if let's say teams were composed of 3 people then once you win 2 rounds the match would be over. Having the winner move on makes for more possibility of comebacks.
@Cunt The thing about melee that bothers me is that it’s super broken, most of the “tech” are glitches, and the fact that only top tiers are viable. I didn’t see the same problem when I played Smash 4 competitively. I play Melee to have fun, (at the time it was 100% party game) I just don’t see the appeal of the competitive scene compared to Sm4sh and Ultimate coming up.
Just want to say the quality of content on this channel is awesome. I don't want to name drop but I was watching another channel with similar content and topics but the quality just was not up to the same standards Core-A is at. So thank you for the awesome FGC content and analysis!
One really interesting form of team play I’ve seen in racing games is the relay format, where each team member gets their own unique car but only one member of each team can drive at once. When a driver from your team finishes a lap, they are taken out of the race and the next driver in the team has to complete a lap. The first team to have all their drivers finish a lap wins. Typically you will see each team given a combined budget of horsepower or some other performance metric they have to split across all their cars, which introduces an interesting layer of strategy; do you want a balanced roster of cars, a powerful first car to get an early lead, or a powerful final car to make time up at the end? This system makes it a little less like one member is keeping the entire team in the match. I don’t know if you could apply this system to fighting games, I just thought it was really interesting and unique.
Great production as always Gerald, very nice to watch I'd hate if tournaments dropped 1 on 1 competition tbh, the rivalries between 2 players instead of between 2 teams are more special, more personal.
The Dr Freeman animations were hilarious, thank-you for being good at your job. May whatever supernatural force(s) you do or do not believe in grant you many children.
Hinomaru Sumo made me really realize how hype a team mode can be in a competition where its one-on-one. Telling the teammate who lost "I will carry on your desire to win" Telling the teammate who won "I will keep up this mommentum you gave us". Thinking "If only I didn't lose my match my teammate wouldn't be feeling this pressure" and "I can't lose, otherwise my teammates who lost might blame themselves".
Great video, love that you cite studies. I agree with most of this stuff, and it's one of the reasons watching *Cooperation* Cup for 3rd Strike is so much fun. Even before the event, you can get excited at seeing the team rosters; trying to see which teams are the most stacked, and who works with whom. The thing I'm not sure about is the distribution of loss over a team. I think it's much easier to single out a teammate as the cause of losing in something like a fighting game, where there isn't any simultaneous team play. Obviously this kind of "weakest link" criticism can happen in any team activity, like the Olympic sport you showed, but in a fighting game, you sit and watch a single player win or lose against a given opponent. Save for some rare exceptions from unpopular games... There might be some opportunities for collaboration - team order, for instance, might let you start the series with a more favorable match-up. Like having your Yun player try to cut off the opposing team's Chun before she gets the chance to steamroll the other two players. (I'm not sure if team tourney formats let teams change player order each match.) Generally there's no live coaching, so the player's decisions are their own for the duration of the match. Anyway, these are just some thoughts - I'm sure there are counterpoints worth hearing, but I just wanted to point out that there are still characteristics of the fighting game genre that make it harder to enjoy as a team sport. Even beyond the fact there's a chance some players don't even get to play.
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Oh I get "Core-A" now, it's literally just Korea read terribly
Wow, you’ve enlightened me. Thanks!
Mind blown
Wait, *W H A T*
Well I feel stupid. 😂
That's really clever
I never realized that. WOW.
teams are great because then you can blame others for your own mistakes
that's the spirit
This is why I love fighting games. Everything is your fault and no is to blame. (Unless it’s a co-op competition)
Someone's been playin Overwatch.
Brandonious15987 or league of legends
@@Strider119119 That's where you're wrong bucko, every character is cheap except mine.
Wait no slow down I'm interested in that all Gigas team. That sounds hilarious and I'm rooting for them whoever they are.
My guy go and watch it! It is so hype! Qudan's (2017 world champion) team vs an All-japanese all gigas team. either here ruclips.net/video/rEc81V0I0fA/видео.html or here ruclips.net/video/Q-BxEADpqTE/видео.html (Aris (avoidingthepuddle) restream)
Oh hey you're into this too
Rad
Just a fan of your channel, have a good day
Hope you watch, I really don't wanna spoil anything for you, but it was hella hype!
now there's a scary story for you to tell
"my team played against koreans at evo"
Dropped my combo for this video. Totally worth it.
Logan McNeil Awesome comment if original
yeah awesome comment if original
Logan lmao
I'm the 4th reply reply.
I dropped by diugh for this video. I'm in pain but totally worth it.
How can you call such a quality video a sidenote?
Because is core a gaming.
That's my wife
Because is Korea gaming.
stfuuuuu
Thanks for getting me into fighting games.
Same here, only love for you and this channel.
Same, I found this channel and got hooked, later I played USF IV on an event in my town and got addicted to playing
Lots of depth to fighting games
@@nekuchan900 thats awesome
I am now a guilty gear nerd
I clicked this vid frame-1
Would you say it was a one frame link?
Sire Only the most technical of one frame links
Just Frame link clicking - truly a Korean level technique.
years of training required for such precise reaction time
The Korea skater is a good example of putting pressure on the weakest link. Nothing good comes out of that. If you identified your team's weakest link help them improve pressuring them will just lead them to quitting or collapsing when it counts the most. It will also lead to internal issues and the team will end up clumping to subgroups rather being a single body.
Good comment, make sense
Agreed, plus leaving them behind during the action event certainly didn't help matters. Maybe it was hard to be aware of it in the moment (she was behind them after all) but it almost sounded like the rest of the team just straight up didn't care and kept on trucking. Obviously she already fucked up by falling behind in the first place but a big part of recovering from mistakes is getting out of your own head and I can't imagine how terrifying it was in that moment to fall so far behind, she probably couldn't have caught back up even if she wanted to once that kind of anxiety set in.
Certainly training is going to be one of the most important things but they probably also would have had a better result if they whole team slowed down a bit and then focused on recovering as a group when that weakest link does break.
Yeah those other broads just had a temper tantrum that cost their team more than just a loss. It's the last member's time that counts. So instead of trying to salvage what seconds they could by dragging her they just threw the game in favor of displaying their own personal performance that's not even being evaluated in this discipline. May not be bullying but it's unsportsmanlike as AF.
@@bennymountain1 I didn't like it either, but we've all been part of a team with "that person" who just doesn't hack it, and it destroys moral just as, if not, even faster. Sometimes you have to be willing to lose a leg, if only so you can crawl to safety.
She obviously never watch those sports anime xD
I was the weakest player on my school’s (GA Tech) Melee crew when we made national finals. Not gonna lie, having supportive teammates helped me play some of the best Melee of my career, and having friends to share the loss in grands with made it hurt way less. This video is spot-on.
Go Jackets!
I think that, at least for me, the magic of teams would kinda go away if it was the only type of competition available in the FGC. Part of why i like watching teams so much is because its cool and interesting to see the team dynamic between 2 opposing teams of master-class players. Its almost like a vs game where you can bring to life your dream team. I think if it became the standard, that type of charm would be a little less dazzling. Its only because we see these players in a strictly 1 on 1 environment almost all the time that we can appreciate teams
smart comment
I like playing in team tournaments more cause it feels like hanging out with your buddies but with maximized hype. And I like watching Singles cause that's like, the whole fantasy of Fighting games, right? Some badass arriving on the scene, bodying everyone and going home with that trophy.
Well put.
Team games are cool to watch but I don't like playing them because when you win in such a game, there's a chance that the win has nothing to do with your skills or gameplay. I've seen way too many esports games where a noob gets a free win because he was carried by a teammate with superior skill and people bitching in a loss because their teammates are bad. I like the fgc because it forces you to have a hard look at yourself so you can objectively admit to yourself your skill level and you have nobody to blame for your loss.
@@r.c.beringuela2426 There's a chance that you won in a solo game because your opponent messed up or overestimated you and played incorrectly. Which would mean you only one because of your opponents misfortune not your own skill. That's an okay opinion to have, but not a solid one.
You opponents overestimating you or messing up is part of the game. It's just a tell that you're better than them. In a moba or fps game, there's someone to pick up your slack in case you messed up. In a fighting game, a single mistake could spell your defeat. I had so many losses due to messing up my combos and I had only myself to blame for my losses. Those losses taught me that my execution wasn't good enough and that I had to up my execution so I won't mess up my inputs.
@@r.c.beringuela2426 Not necessarily true. You can be facing any opponent in a 1v1 game who has a higher execution frequency, uses more advanced and basics strategies alike with consistency. Clearly can outplay you with ease. But made enough mistakes in which you came off with a lucky win(s). That doesn't mean you are better than them. There's also the fact that some players at higher levels might not have fully grasped how to beat lower level player meta. That's certainly a thing, when a player advances too quickly without taking out the time to understand how the meta shifts.
You're not wrong, but it's not that simple.
I was wondering if this side of Core A was dead. I could listen to this guy talk about the facets of fighting games all day...
are we gonna ignore the sadness yuyu probably felt at 6:55 ? left her hanging man ;-;
Who know Rip would be alpha and not shit himself over a girl tryna high five him.
Noooo I searched for someone commenting that, it's so saaaaad ;0; hahaha
To be fair it was an exciting moment for him and she was behind him. It would be easy not to notice. But yeah that probably felt a little awkward for her.
@@LadyViolet1 I mean she tapped his back like 6 times waiting for a high 5...
@@soulreaperx7x Oh I didn't notice that.
Funny enough, Overwatch has the problem of being too much of a team game. If one person is being sub-optimal in hero choice or performance, it cripples the whole team, which is super frustrating and creates a very salty competitive community. Often matches come down to which team falls apart first, which is not fun.
The best team games allow not only teamwork (specially with random players), but the ability to still have an individual impact.
(thats why we play tf2 on anything but ctf)
comp tf2's individual to team balance is what overwatch was tryong to do
It's also why Heroes of the Storm is a bad game for showcasing big individual player skill. Individual players and their abilities are intentionally weak to prevent even 1 Vs 1 combat from being viable when time to kill and damage per hero is so low, it forces working together or teamfights to make any sort of progress, also all xp rewards are split between the team hugely reducing a single player from becoming much stronger from their individual successful play. The big skillfull plays from star players that you see in League and Dota simply do not exist in HotS, making the game much less popular as a result.
OMEGALUL VERWATCH
@@cattysplat Which really speaks to a sadly human need for ego-stroking on the part of players and idol-worship on the part of the audience. Still, a good player can most definitely impact the course of a HotS game - just not to the extent of single-handedly carrying a team of retards.
I honestly feel like HotS is a case of 'not the game we want, but the game we need'.
2:00 didn't know Fio from Metal Slug played Tekken
@Da Savage09 metal slug is considered very obscure now?
so thats why she seemed familiar :V
@@HellecticMojo Nah. The name Fio might be a bit hard for people who haven't played the games in a long time to remember, but the series as a whole has a decent following.
I got the reference.
I never forget...Fio ! ~
I think singles offers some dynamics that can't be had in teams, so I would be mad if they banned it, but I would still probably watch it, just not as much really.
Agree the drama of single is so much more like an underdog grinding there way through a tournament of killers. Team events have there place but they shouldnt replace solo
I still remember Gamerbee's grind during the last SF4 EVO. He was the heroic underdog who slayed all the demons only to fail at grand finals probably due to a controller malfunction on his opponent's part. That shit was dramatic and I almost cried at that.
@@r.c.beringuela2426 that 2015 USF4 bracket was the most hype thing ive ever watched. All the big names falling through out the bracket. Gamerbees run was so awesome that whole top at 8 was amazing plays after amazing plays. Poor gamerbee he beat all his demons only to lose in such a shitty way. The emotion after was something special that would be lost in team format
"People enjoyed intergroup competition more than the other three types."
*MOBA PTSD intensifies*
Online rando matchmaking is not team play.
@@formerlysammichu1 GW2 was salty?
@@formerlysammichu1 oh, now those were not as common for me
@@formerlysammichu1 yeah that happened but from my experience it was a rare thing to occur
I would drop the FGC hobby instantly if the FGC becomes a purely group format. Games like moba games or FPS games are team based affairs that that hugely dominate the esports scene. I need the FGC to satisfy my single player competition itch.
Same, i like team stuff sometimes, i think its cool but singles is the whole essence of fighting games.
Teams are party or for fun stuff,the true fgc only take that duel for real
Missing out on MK9, Brawlhalla and For Honor has to suck for you
Same for me. I like Deathmatches in FPS, I like mobas.
But my favourite game is one on one fighting games.
(Except SFV, that game is for babies)
I would hate, but still watch, if every tournament turned into purely 3v3 or 5v5s.
If that became the sole format of competition money would become too big of a factor.
The biggest sponsors would buy the biggest players, and of the winning team maybe only 3 or 4 of the players would even get to play. It also means that the BEST players wouldn't get to play against the BEST, as they would be stacked together.
On a side note, I really love watching team tournaments the way it is now. Although I didn't know anyone from the all-Gigas team I was rooting my ass out for them. So much character and identity can be built around friends getting together to play for the win.
Awesome video as always, probably one of my personal favorites.
You are like a modern story-teller or a scribe to the FGC. Well spoken, well informed and sharp as a knife.
Incredible work.
I don't know about other games, but in Smash we call this format "crew battles" and I honestly find it super fun. Head-to-head competition is hype, but there's something special about being able to celebrate a win or mourn a loss with a group of friends that you definitely don't get with a normal match. I don't know if I'd want to replace normal matches with this format as a viewer - a normal bracket still holds a lot of excitement for me - but as a player it's super fun.
I love both forms of play; in all honesty. There's just something really cool about watching matches between 1v1, and watching squads going up against other squads in team formats.
I don't think I'd like one going away; in favor of the other, though.
To answer the ending question, that would be a terrible idea. There are rarely times when removing options is a better thing for a community. The team dynamic is good for team players, but not everybody is a team player. This much was even illustrated in the video itself with the whole deal with the skaters. Imagine people who are like that in nature, but knowingly avoid teaming up because of this now forced into that kind of space due to a lack of options. They not only have to experience that feeling, but also become outed for this behavior, even if they've thus far done a good job co-existing in spite of this issue.
Or what about the other side of the spectrum? Those with incredible anxiety about holding others back. Being in a team can enable those with impostor syndrome to a dangerous degree, because their failures and perceived incompetence are no longer theirs alone to bare in their mind. I know it, because I live it. I may not be a big-time esports heavyweight fighting for cash prizes, but I do like me some Leauge of Legends. At least, in theory. I actually get very anxious about playing it and this predisposition hampers my ability to enjoy my time with it. The issue being that I hate being the weakest link. This is doubly so, because I quite literally am the weak link of my group, both in experience and in skill. Because of this, I dread failure more than if I was just playing Granblue Versus, because when I fuck up and lose lane, everyone's game becomes harder and the feeding enemies got makes it harder to rebound. Then, even if I perform adequately and even if the victory was a crushing one, I still maintain it, because it's easier to say that everyone else did better. Another lane pushed harder, the support and jungler did their part better, no matter the excuse, as long as I was the one being carried.
Because of this, I couldn't bare to enter a team tournament. I would be a stick in the mud putting team spirit down and it would be hell on my mental health. I couldn't imagine ever wanting to go to any fighting game events if being in a team was a mandate.
if the FGC dropped 1v1s in favor of team matches, I would move on to a new genre. The biggest appeal for me coming from team-based games was being able to improve consistently and hold myself accountable for the outcomes. It's an interesting video, but personally I don't find team sports entertaining at all.
To a certain degree that still holds true even if fighting games turn into a team sport. It is still 1vs1 in the end. All your matches are dictated by your own performance.
@@ryllian1 true but the odds aren't fair if your team mates are bad. If you're the anchor and every match all of your teammates get knocked out with only you to win the whole things it's quite different than 5 matches with Bo3 style.
If DBFZ did this Japan would be like unstoppable xD Kaz + Go1 + Dogura dream team. In the west I think the best we could muster is Sonic + Hook + ... Nakkiel? Or maybe Chris G or Appologyman as the last (or maybe replace Hook with one of them). Unless the guy who won Smash Evo and mained A. 21 joins the team. I forget his name.
It'd be hype though, but I feel like the East would have the best team which that would kinda be where the competition goes, you'd have top tier characters defining events but also top tier players that would define the tournament scene and realistically if you don't have at least 2 players who either are or can hold a candle to the top players then you're kinda rip. And since the top players are trying to win, they are heavily incentivised to team up together and make dream teams to blow everyone else out through attaining a monopoly on Skill so to speak. In some competitive envirornments where the number of highly skilled consistently topping players is small, it can create situations where 1 or 2 teams really matter while the rest are just there hoping for a fluke.
I'd still be suuuuuper hyped to see such an event happening though.
Don't mind me, just dropping an uninformed opinion XD there's probably more teams that would matter than those 2 and depending on how the event is run it could be more possible for upsets to happen because seeding such an event would be awkward.
There's a book on life philosophy called "Extreme ownership". One of the points made there is that underperforming teammates are also your responsibility and you have to do what you can to help them improve instead of using them as an excuse for your failure or straight up giving up and quitting in your case.
@@bennymountain1 You're assuming a lot about me and my past, and knowing absolutely nothing of it.
Glad you're working so closely with UYU for some of these recent videos; they have such a cool, fun player roster.
I think you are well on your way to becoming an e-sports psychologist all on your own
Beto Hernandez you mean “we” :D
(lol just realized you can be plural too)
I like individual players, not the team they are a part of.
Teams are a great supplement to singles, but singles will always be the main draw of fighting games. That's the thing that separates fighting games from other esports: the 1v1 nature.
team MMA looking like a bar fight seems like the point, and that sounds amazing to watch too
Another fantastic video, always love how well organized and clear the points you make are. This is my favorite channel on youtube, always looking forward to new videos, great job Gerald!
Man, I just discovered the 5 on 5 SFA3 and it is THE BOMB!
I really love it, and the stream is SO HYPE
I get so pissed with this topic. Being part of a team is sooo much more than "blaming others for your loses". Playing with a team you're REALLY comfortable with gives out an amazing feeling you can't even compare both competitions.
Plus, to be able to make your team more than the sum of its members, by teamworking and sharing things is just beautiful.
Well that is if you are good on the team. If you suck you feel more like a liability which is one of the worst feelings.
1:32 Simple solution to this: automatically rotate team members each round, even if they won their match. For example, in the team setup you showed, after the first round of Ryu vs Ibuki, he would be rotated out for Ken, who would play the second round against Sean, then Chun-Li against Remy. Then loop back to the start until one team is empty. That way, Chun-Li doesn’t get left out because her teammates did all the work.
I wouldn't mind if team FGC events got bigger. The thing I like most about fighters is the 1v1 style of it, and I don't think a sequence of 1v1 matches take away from it. While having a team can increase pressure on one person and lead to infighting like you said in the video, I think it would be more fun for competitors and audiences; especially with team games monopolising Esports at the moment, it would probably also lead to an increase in viewership which is great! On the other hand, it would make gauging skill levels of players much harder, but then again- thats what grudge and money matches are for.
I don’t think we should replace individual with team based FGC tournaments but it’d be nice to have some more of the latter, they’re really fun to watch
6:53 are we just gonna ignore the girl that was expecting a high five there and just kinda awkwardly backed off
Representing Neo Turf Masters: The Gentleman’s Game. Instant like. Good shit, Gerald!
Pure competition is far superior than team games. After i got into fighting games, I never looked back at games like LoL, CS:GO, or Overwatch which I used to play all the time. In fighting games, I have more variables under my control, and whether or not I win is completely dependent on me.
The beauty of fighting games is in the 1v1. That's what really got me. And if you find a player on your level just going at it, it can go on for hours.
I closed my smash ultimate countdown to open this video
That study on competition you linked had some pretty surprising results. I hate team games. Every time I lose (or win!) in Overwatch, I have *zero* clue whether it was because I played poorly and basically turned the game into a 5v6 (or really well), or it was my team that threw (or carried).
It took me like 70 hours of play before I was capable of really figuring out when I made (some) mistakes, when I did the right plays, whether I was playing my hero (somewhat) correctly in a game or not. I know in terms of a competitive multiplayer game with a dedicated base playing over years, 70 hours doesn’t seem like a lot. But imagine there was a singleplayer game that had a tutorial section that lasted 70 hours, and every time you failed in that tutorial section you couldn’t even tell if it was your fault or some outside factors.
At least in fighting games, even when I have no clue what mistakes I’m making when I’m getting my ass handed to me, I know for a fact it is no ones fault but my own.
The only thing that concerns me in terms of shifting to only playing with teams, is you will have people travelling alone to some events, and they won't be able to enter because they have no one to team up with. Not saying I'm against the team format, but I'm against eliminating the singles format
man, these team battles are so much fun, my most memorable one i joined was Let's Go Baltimore Crew Battles. I thought i was gonna suck, but the team i was put in gave me so much encouragement and i loved it, felt way more positive and did better in said tournament
Haven't even watched, but its Core so I liked
Nurima stop that
@@Witty657 no
I am in awe of your editing skills. Had to rewind multiple times to see it again.
6:57 uyu got denied that high-5 lol
I love teams in fighting games. One of my favorite team tournaments has to be Cooperation Cup in Japan.
i have never clicked a video this fast
Can't block an incoming Core A gaming video.
You always showcase such amazing and motivational moments. Thanks.
6:54 RIP left YUYU hanging lmao
Literally stopped everything I was doing for this. Nice to see you making video essays again
UYU, more like UwU
MrPomegranX [Matoi]
NO! Stop it! Get some help!
Micos lol
ppl said this on another vid with her also lol
VampCoffee I think that was also me. Check the Tekken video they did not too long ago.
UwU Qudans
Qudans: UwU im hewwusweeping you uwu
I've won a local by myself and I've lost a local with a team and honestly having teammates was so much more fun. just being able to share that experience and cheer each other on was awesome
+ Core-A Gaming could you talk about retro fighting games mechanics such as Project Justice and evil zone? Thanks
Quality, quality fucking videos.
Watching your analysis videos as a fighting game player brings so much joy.
Smash Ultimate have Squad Strike will hopefully bring back Crew Battles cause that'd be REALLY hype and I'm in full support of it
^
Can I just say how much I loved that Freeman joke?
My Gawd! Yuyu's team is way too OP excluding RIP!
this is one of the best videos i've seen on youtube. you're killing it
I'm waiting for RIP's all law team with him, just frame james or double, & gosain
Thanks for being you Gerald
I won't say this often, but I think Smash does this the best. They don't just play team competitions by games, but by stock. That way each team member can contribute either a little or a lot, but will almost never sweep the whole team. This also means that a team that is only slightly worse in general than the other won't get straight bodied by losing the final rounds.
I was surprised when I learned that other team formats don't function the same way Smash does it. It provides ever player on the team a chance to make an impact without letting the absolute best players completely body entire teams. It's near perfect.
And it serves for the most insane comebacks.
Armada and Android vs Leffen and Ice comes instantly to mind as one of, if not the best 2v1 comeback in smash history.
@@akerguido9399 honestly curious how smash does team games differently, got a link to that match?
I was playing a local, but when I saw this vid was uploaded, I ran home to watch it. Damn, I love this channel!
Kkokkoma x Tasty Steve is my favorite ship
Hell yeah! New Core-A video! Always a pleasant surprise.
Core-A notification, CLICK ON!
My absolute favorite youtuber to exist. So happy any time I see a new video.
I've been shouting to the high-heavens for the past 8-9 years that Fighting Games will forever remain a niche genre, particularly in the esports space, until someone develops a team-based, multiplayer fighting game from the ground up and MARKETS the game as a team-based fighting game. Something simultaneous would be preferable but not necessary. The fact that it seems like the old-guard FG developers haven't even ATTEMPTED something of this nature up until this point boggles my mind. I know there have been Team Modes in FGS forever, but they're treated like bullet points on a box, instead of being played up as a compelling feature, so they're often treated as such, by the competitive community and casual community alike.
Fighting Games as a genre should be WAY bigger than they currently are. They're niche-ness is completely nonsensical and a result of an aging community of old-guard publishers and developers refusing to take innovative risks and not being paying attention to what's currently happening in the market.
Thanks for bringing up this topic Gerald. Some of the most hyped I’ve been was watching the Canada Cup 5v5 tournaments in both USFIV and SFV. With that said, I doubt the 1v1 would be able to leave bc it also provides hype and it can definitively show who the best is.
P.S. I FADC’d into video click
What is this? A vsauce video and a core A video in the same hour?
Hey, I just found your channel and BOY! am I in love with it! I'm not even a huge lover of fighting games, but your dedication to make such an amazing content is definitely making me come back for much more! Keep it up! :D
When you criticize your teammates
but then you get bullied by twitter and they take away your sponsor
feelsbadman.
Great vid as always!
Interesting note: When I played on TESPA’s Hearthstone tourney for my school, the requirement was that every deck/player had to win, requiring every member to participate. It’d be cool to see this implemented somewhat (On a big scale)
No, having to worry about teammates is the reason I stopped playing team games and moved on to fighting games. Teammates are just another luck factor that you can't control for yourself. Sometimes they help you, sometimes they drag you down. It's random. I only want my skill to matter, nothing else.
Which is why people prefer to pick a good person to be in the team, mostly friends that has the same levels as you.
Hehe.
If you ever heard of Legend of thunder, then he has the perfect answer for that.
_"I'm tired of being LeBron James in these lobbies."_
Read the title as tennis before clicking. Thought it was uncharacteristic, but worth a watch. Upon starting the video, re read the title, and suddenly everything made a lot more sense
The Team format should have the rule: "Once a player wins a match, they can no longer play anymore." so it forces everyone on the team to be able to score at least 1 win for victory, and prevents a team hiding behind a monster of a player who can single handily carry people who don't deserve to be on the team
But then when a team gets a streak of wins, they're guaranteed to win, making the remaining matches redundant. That's arguably worse. The last player should have the chance of bringing it back
@@YadonTheCat at any point a team can switch someone out to someone who hasnt won yet. But the point being weak players love team games because there is always someone else to blame, and if they are on a winning team, they get carried to a level they dont deserve. Its like a bench warmer who gets multiple champsionship wins because the rest of the team is carrying, it makes no sense in a 1v1 format to not have everyone prove their worth. If you cant nab 1 win vs 5 people you dont deserve to be on the team
Doom2Guy I think he means that instead of knocking someone out who loses, you eliminate the people that win. So the winning team is the team that gets all their members to win a game before the other team can. Personally I don’t like this way because it reduces the chance of some crazy upset/comebacks, but I see his point that it does make the competition more fair.
i disagree because if let's say teams were composed of 3 people then once you win 2 rounds the match would be over. Having the winner move on makes for more possibility of comebacks.
This is why you’re not the one organizing team events
Core-A Gaming: Setting the new standard for quality content creation!
Smash Ultimate comes out in 2 days...
GhostSan64 Um, do you think this game is glitchy melee or something?
@@MrPomegranX I think he was talking about people getting salty online, no need to bring up melee lol
@@MrPomegranX melee is sick
@Cunt The thing about melee that bothers me is that it’s super broken, most of the “tech” are glitches, and the fact that only top tiers are viable. I didn’t see the same problem when I played Smash 4 competitively. I play Melee to have fun, (at the time it was 100% party game) I just don’t see the appeal of the competitive scene compared to Sm4sh and Ultimate coming up.
Ok
Wow, every video you put out is pure gold. Thank you.
Just want to say the quality of content on this channel is awesome. I don't want to name drop but I was watching another channel with similar content and topics but the quality just was not up to the same standards Core-A is at. So thank you for the awesome FGC content and analysis!
As always, amazing work in teaching all of us with your FGC analysis vids, man.
EXCELLENT analysis! Your videos are always a treat!
You consistently put out quality content. I am super happy you are getting bigger! You def deserve it.
One really interesting form of team play I’ve seen in racing games is the relay format, where each team member gets their own unique car but only one member of each team can drive at once. When a driver from your team finishes a lap, they are taken out of the race and the next driver in the team has to complete a lap. The first team to have all their drivers finish a lap wins. Typically you will see each team given a combined budget of horsepower or some other performance metric they have to split across all their cars, which introduces an interesting layer of strategy; do you want a balanced roster of cars, a powerful first car to get an early lead, or a powerful final car to make time up at the end? This system makes it a little less like one member is keeping the entire team in the match. I don’t know if you could apply this system to fighting games, I just thought it was really interesting and unique.
WE HAVE BEEN BLESSED TODAY WITH A NEW CORE A VIDEO!
So glad you posted something new. I LOVE THESE VIDEOS! Glad your back.
After last week, Rip needed this kinda love.
Please upload more often, I missed this channel so much.
Love your content.
Great production as always Gerald, very nice to watch
I'd hate if tournaments dropped 1 on 1 competition tbh, the rivalries between 2 players instead of between 2 teams are more special, more personal.
Another great analysis. Awesome job, Gerald!
so glad you made a new video! been waiting!
I'm so happy whenever you upload another analysis video
I appreciate these videos so much. Thank you for all the hard work you put into these. Single-handedly turned me into a fighting game junky.
6:55 You left poor YUYU hanging :)) Quality video as always, thank you:D
Damn, didn't expect a nice treat like this today
The Dr Freeman animations were hilarious, thank-you for being good at your job. May whatever supernatural force(s) you do or do not believe in grant you many children.
I love these. Thank you! Tekken players in on team touched my heart
Hinomaru Sumo made me really realize how hype a team mode can be in a competition where its one-on-one. Telling the teammate who lost "I will carry on your desire to win" Telling the teammate who won "I will keep up this mommentum you gave us". Thinking "If only I didn't lose my match my teammate wouldn't be feeling this pressure" and "I can't lose, otherwise my teammates who lost might blame themselves".
Great video, love that you cite studies. I agree with most of this stuff, and it's one of the reasons watching *Cooperation* Cup for 3rd Strike is so much fun. Even before the event, you can get excited at seeing the team rosters; trying to see which teams are the most stacked, and who works with whom. The thing I'm not sure about is the distribution of loss over a team. I think it's much easier to single out a teammate as the cause of losing in something like a fighting game, where there isn't any simultaneous team play. Obviously this kind of "weakest link" criticism can happen in any team activity, like the Olympic sport you showed, but in a fighting game, you sit and watch a single player win or lose against a given opponent. Save for some rare exceptions from unpopular games...
There might be some opportunities for collaboration - team order, for instance, might let you start the series with a more favorable match-up. Like having your Yun player try to cut off the opposing team's Chun before she gets the chance to steamroll the other two players. (I'm not sure if team tourney formats let teams change player order each match.) Generally there's no live coaching, so the player's decisions are their own for the duration of the match. Anyway, these are just some thoughts - I'm sure there are counterpoints worth hearing, but I just wanted to point out that there are still characteristics of the fighting game genre that make it harder to enjoy as a team sport. Even beyond the fact there's a chance some players don't even get to play.
All Core-A vids are so great man
Your content is AWESOME Gerald!