I go to a 10th planet school, where nobody ever wears the gi. And yet, somehow, everyone is still obsessed with belts. People always say they don't care about belts, and they are always lying. It's just human nature: it's a hierarchy and it's a form of recognition. Personally I like the ranks, it helps you know where you stand. Does it matter? Not really. And yet it's everything.
just look at the thumbnail in the video. If the belts didn't matter, they wouldn't have referenced Nick Rods Blue Belt and him being a Blackbelt slayer. If belts go away, there will just be another criteria to rank people. It's a must in any contact sport. Division One, Collegiate level, Amateur champ, etc... Belts are just general tools of measuring competence and experience.
Belts are political and a money maker in most martial arts schools in the USA...They are seldom earned, they are a gift from the instructor to his paying customers...a 1st place medal or trophy is earned on the mat, belts not so much...
@@pulsarlights2825 You're not wrong in general but most martial arts promotions systems are not comparable to BJJ. It can take roughly 10 years to earn a black belt in BJJ. Haven't yet seen any BJJ belt (regardless of color) gifted to anyone. They were all earned where I've trained.
@@mmhm007 I know people at certain schools that basically suck (for lack of a better word), meaning they not only never competed but they rarely even rolled in the class...yet I watched them get promoted up the chain just for showing up and paying the money for 8-10 years...Not every school is like that, but they do exist....I would rather be a tough blue or purple belt than a black belt with very little mat time in 10 years....
I think belts matter a lot for people that don't want to compete. It's a concrete reward for improvement in skills and dedication to the sport. There is definitely a wide variety of skill levels at each belt, but I think they represent a good general guidance for the jiu jitsu experience of a person.
@@DoubleI662 different people train BJJ for different reasons. Being over 40 i did a lot of comp in white and blue but now I'm in it for something different. Being at the top of the heap is no longer my goal. My goal is self improvement now and i don't won't to put myself in the risk that comp brings
@@DoubleI662 you know that some people just train for better shape, some self defence skills and just for fun? Still there are plenty of former comptetitors who are injured and just want to stick with their passion. It is just fun to do.
@@DoubleI662 no way. I'm the sole income for my family and can't take the extra risk sparring with strangers. Providing for my kids and spouse is 1000 times more important than trying to get a cheap 15 dollar medal. I know how my skills stack up when my competitor teammates and I spar hard, then see them win. Or if I go to an open mat and they try to smash me
I’m a Blue belt and I definitely care about Belt Promotions. However, my main focus is to be able to roll and defend myself against anyone no matter the belt. Jiu Jitsu is a personal Journey
Hey guys, the belt system is based on knowledge and application. The founder of judo created the belt system, he was an educator. BJJ came from Judo. Martial arts are supposed to be an education system, that’s why it’s called a grading when you get promoted. In judo the color belts are called Grades, and then there are 10 degrees of black, which are steps to mastery. The whole purpose of the belt system initially was to not make money, but to guide the students through the curriculum.
The problem is they stifle progression with age and time-at-rank minimums. I get they don't want people progressing through unnaturally, but can anyone really say that any sixth degree black belt is six times better than Gordon Ryan, who has been limited by his age and time-at-rank?
@@Nswix you’re right. The min time in rank is fairly new and prior, people just had to be awarded their black belt stripes by their own Professor. It was knowledge based. People like Xande, Gordon, Marcelo, Roger, and Bruno are Masters at their craft and this should be at least Coral Belts. Legends like Jean Jacques, Rickson, Royler, Liborio, and Royce should all be Grand Masters. But here we are. I would love to get my coral belt so now my goal is to live long enough and don’t die.
And that's why we need second system for competitions. Ranking system like elo. Belt systems for student is completely different needs than for competition...
@@arnoldb4526 who’s getting black belts in 2 years in the US? In Japan yeah, 2 years, but the rest of the world it takes more than that. It took me 8 years to get my judo black belt in California.
Its like any sport. People that are young can be way more skilled than someone who has been doing it for years. Soccer and basketball are great examples of young kids coming in and beating more experienced pros. The belt system helps keep the hobbyists and shows that they and people who also compete are improving. That doesn’t mean a blue belt can’t beat a black belt. There are plenty of people that learn way quicker and have a higher ceiling but less training time.
I think as a competitor - just as Nicky said - belts don't really matter. However, as a business, especially for most of the BJJ non competition driven practitioner and the kids having a progression system in place that is standard and recognized is important. Great video. Thanks for sharing
Exactly, this is why you dont see recreational wrestling for adults as much. When students are wrestling in school they're essentially a fulltime athlete, hence no need for belts. They gauge their ability by competing, but when you're out of school and with no one else to compete with how do u know how ur doing.
Yeah for most. I know a guy who did mma professionally and I'm pretty sure is a bjj blackbelt + does nogi and owns a gym. I'll be training there soon and I don't care about belts I just want to be able to destroy anyone on the feet or on the ground. I've been to prison and if I go back I want to wreak havoc and run the yard on some straight bully shit.(I'm 6'4 so once trained will be a weapon.) Fuck a belt I want the skills
As a "belt system", I tend to use this: white = newbie, blue = can defend against/control an untrained opponent of equal size/strength, purple = can defend against/control an untrained opponent of mostly any size/strength, brown = can defend against/control lower and most of the same belt level trained opponents of equal size/strength, black = can defend/control against almost anyone. Of course there are outliers if someone runs into a physical freak or D1 athlete. I also look at depth of knowledge too. For the most part this system works for me.
I think a relevant question to this discussion is: what are the thresholds of differentiating one belt from another? what are the criteria to promote a student from one belt to another? how do these standards differ from one place to another? maybe the belt system is still relevant in no-gi, but the lack of a unified standard to rate athletes across the board gives the impression that the ranking is irrelevant ... just food for thought.
yeah i think its silly if there are no unified rules and i think it would be better if everyone gained rating points from beating people at tournaments and the only way to become black belt ect is beating those who are at that level, i think it would definitely remove all the fake promotions we see.
@@AaronGiffordOfficial So just screw everyone who doesn't want to compete or physically cant from getting a black belt? wut? Why would we want anyone controlling a system like that lol the IBJJF does enough damage as is...
@@Lockdown335 well if you don't want to compete then you probably aren't deserving anyways because you won't test your skills and then you won't even know if they'd work irl. And if you can't compete then how can you even be deserving of a higher rank if you can't even perform the skills that would make up someone of a higher rank, you can't just he a higher rank just because you've been doing bjj for a while. Something unified had to he done and if you want a higher rank then you should be shown that you're capable of performing it in a real setting. For those who think they're too old to compete they still have divisions for older people. But I repeat you should only be able to get a high rank if you can show that you know what you're doing in a real situation, no slowed down rolling or you demonstrating what you just learned from a danaher video 10 minutes beforehand, just pure skill from practicing and competing.
@@Lockdown335 I should've asked you in that comment why do you think someone who has never competed should be worthy of a black belt. Like if you base it on knowledge then anyone could be a black belt from watching RUclips videos and seeing how all the techniques are meant to be done but a real black belt is able to do them proficiently, effectively against any opponent
Would you rather be a "sand bagger" and be better than your actual belt or a black belt that sucks? I know a few black belts that do not really roll because they aren't as good as they should be.... How watered down is BJJ compared to the way it was 20 years ago?
I’ve heard this subject talked about a few times. I think it’s worth going back and reading about the original intention of the belt system by Kano before you even talk about it just for reference at least it would improve the discussion
These boys describe the change of no-gi grappling from BJJ to wrestling with submissions. Fun Fact: Wrestling with submissions is the original "no-gi submission grappling". Satoru "Tiger Mask" Sayama's grappling program for Shooto in the 1980's was Catch Wrestling without pins. They did it for MMA as well as for pure grappling tournaments.
Anyone can pick distinct examples where someone did this or that. Wrestling is less submissions and more take down based in modern day grappling, BJJ is the other way round. BJJ comps start from standup so are now incorporating a lot more wrestling/judo but the need to be extremely proficient on the ground is still the mainstay. Wrestling due to its competition style will never have the variety and depth of submissions that BJJ has, it’s not needed in the sport.
@@IamDude2 what are you talking about? Classically, Shoot Wrestling had way more submissions than classic BJJ. If you've ever seen Shooto or Catch Wrestling prior to BJJ changing into Submission Wrestling, you would not have written that comment. One of many examples is leg locks. They used to be banned in BJJ, meanwhile the current leg lock game originates from Catch.
@@theemperorcharlemagne who cares about “classically” is my point, anyone can use google, “fun fact” lol, were you told you’re a bit stupid in school so now you’re trying to ease that chip on your shoulder? Every martial art has changed over the centuries picking up relevant styles as pertained to the time and dropping others, catch wrestling originated in England..great but so what. These boys, as you put it, are talking about the modern application of wrestling in sport where submissions are less important vs bjj where they are, hence the wrestling + submissions statement, others have stated it’s more like bjj with more takedowns. Nicky Rod was a very good wrestler but didn’t know how to submit before he took up bjj, don’t believe me..google it genius.
I think there should be an ELO rating system like in chess and award titles like they do there aswell like say black belt is 2000 rated, you have to have 3 performances that are on average 2000 rated or higher at a tournament and you get your black belt.
@@Oldhandlewasabitcringe in chess you cannot lose your title unless earned through cheating ect and it shows at one point you were that good and if your rating does drop then it just shows you aren't as proficient anymore due to age or taking a break ect
That's why sometimes I think that testing is a good thing before they get their belt. As a white belt and blue I got tested by my Brazilian professor about basic moves and escapes. When I got to purple (new club that doesn't do testing), they just paid attention when they rolled with me, and I think they made notes.
My school ranks adults as: White, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, black. Compared to a lot of schools, our blue belts are tough. I think it’s a good system, because any colored belt in that ranking system can roll with white belts and have control
Belt systems work best probably as system of personal achievement. Because there's so much variation in skill at each rank, it might be better to judge people's skill on the length of time of their training, and/or their accomplishments in competition.
honestly the belts don’t matter as much depending on training environments because nicky rod for example he’s a brown belt but he trains with the best jiu jitsu players in the world so he has the skills of a black belt but if you picked up a black belt from a gym where it’s strictly hobbyists that guy would not beat any other black belts who legitimately train to compete belts are just tradition your skill is dependent on your environment and training regiment
How do you grade people at b team? I heard Nicky Ryan saying it's based on knowledge but what do you need to know? For example do you have a curriculum like lachlan giles? do you grade competition/hobbyist or older people differently? Do they have to be well rounded, for example, someone with a great guard but no wrestling or leg attacks VS someone who is average everywhere etc?
Years ago I had the progression psychological problem, only in the game of Go. After years pondering about how to solve it I came to the conclusion that the best you can do is reassure the negative: if you learn one thing everyday, what is the likelihood you are NOT progressing?
My club, which is almost exclusively no-gi grappling, we wear a coloured rubber wristband. I still think people need to see progress and everyone seeks recognition. It's important for clubs to maintain membership too.
I train nogi 95% of the time these days, but I have to say, unless you're getting in a "street" fight or whatever in Hawai'i, and everyone is in board short and flip flops, the gi actually makes more sense. Even in this video, you were all wearing hoodies. People... wear clothes. They're not kimonos, sure, but same idea. Again, I love nogi, not trying to take anything away, but for self defense I think gi makes fine sense, too.
I think they are super important but not in the context of competition, more so in relationship to your personal potential. NickyRod was a 'blue belt' relative to his potential at the time. Now he's a black belt relative to his knowledge and experience and this version of himself would crush 'blue belt' nicky rod. Idk if that matters but that's why that i think they are important.
As helio Gracie said what matters is you have skills and more importantly can you teach it because one day you won’t be able to fight anymore so since you can’t fight anymore does that mean you aren’t a black belt anymore?
I think everyone I'd on their own path and just because a athletic wrestler guy is subbing you doesn't mean you don't deserve that belt. I had a student talk to me about how he smashes higher belts or some higher belts that let other lower belts "work/play" because if I go 100 everyday on everyone then some people will not come back. And it's a business where people need to come back. I think belts matter so much, but to each their own and, that also everybody is on their own path on this jiu jitsu journey. Do not compare, focus on yourself and what you need to improve.
What about people that don't compete, are not athletic, injured, old/over the hill etc, they still get promoted as long as they keep showing up and paying the monthly fees, right? That doesn't exist in wrestling, people that suck get cut from the wrestling team, and you don't see middle aged men wrestling a few nights a week after work....
@Pulsar Lights it's hard to run a business when the majority of the population is unathletic. Everyone is on their own path as they maybe just studying the art and practicing it. If everyone who sucked at jiujitsu quit that would be half of the competitors if not more at your local regional maybe even national tournaments, hard for athletes to get good work without opponents. Respect everybody and respect their path and why they want to study the art of jiujitsu.
Learned an obscure martial art at a school where there are no belts or uniforms, everyone wears workout clothes and it was important for us to ask students we didn't know where they were in training as they may not be able to take a throw and do a tumble or slip a joint lock. It was always much easier to ask, than to assume. Since BJJ doesn't allow striking, throwing/slamming, it's less important to know your your opponents experience level. When I get asked what belt I am, I just answer I been around the block, and leave it there.
Did anyone actually expect them to say that gi could defeat no gi? Of course not. That said, as an 8 year jj practitioner, I agree w a lot of what they say. I've long abandoned the idea that the belt is the end all be all. I've submitted higher belts, and I've been humbled by lower belts. What I've come to value the belt for is not how I stack up against others, but what it says about my progress. Am i better than I was 1, 5, or 8 years ago? Is my brown belt self better than my blue belt self? That is what I see the purpose as, and for that reason, plus some of the others mentioned in this video, I can't fully agree that belts are irrelevant.
Well... a school just got hit w a 46 million dollar ruling. The main point of contention is that the student was a white belt. They went out of their way to say white belts are a beginner. So yes... they matter because they have existed in the public domain for so long that the courts have given them meaning.
No Gi and Gi are two different martial arts at this point. Belts are important because they mark the journey you training has gone through. I also agree that its very hard to Belt/Rank No Gi because standards really haven't been made for it.
If that’s the case why wasn’t Craig Jones able to score a single point against Nicholas Meregali, whose only been training in the gi for 6 months prior to ADCC.
@@siavosh87 and yet Nicky Rod as a wrestler won silver in ADCC as a blue belt. There is still overlap like they said, but they are separating. Having a background in any other grappling discipline (Judo, Wrestling, Sambo,etc.) Will certaintly carry over to jiu jitsu just like gi has carry over to no gi.
@@Aaron-bd9sj yes, this goes to serve my point that there is a lot of overlap in these areas (like you mentioned yourself) and the overlap is only increasing. There is a lot of overlap in wrestling and Jiu Jitsu, not in the moves directly but things like base, etc. Even totally unrelated martial arts are starting to incorporate Jiu Jitsu into their game. There will still be a distinction between No Gi and Gi but to say they will be two different martial arts at some point is just not going to happen in my opinion.
BJJ would be improved by going to two belts and separating competition and teaching achievements. A "novice" belt for people learning the basic positions, getting themselves conditioned, and who might pose a danger to themselves or others in a training environment. Basically, common standards for white belt through late-blue fit the "novice" category. Everyone else is grouped with an "advanced" belt - being late-blue to black. This consolidates competitions, eliminates sand-bagging, etc. A small subset of the advanced category should receive a teaching "badge" (or whatever) on their advanced belt... awarded to people with a deep understanding of the game and possessed of good character.
Personally I view my skill level by who I’m beating. If your white crushing blues. Then your blue belt level. If your a blue crushing browns then your brown level. Everything else is just time.
Old school grading (like in karate), if done well, would probably help ease up confusion. Like where you get a belt when you're tested on being able to pull off a certain set of submissions or sweeps or whatever. The belt would serve as a decent marker of one's knowledge and practice, as apposed to a vague indication of one's skill.
Nah. In the end, what they care about is genuine skill level. A set test defeats the purpose -- then people just study for the test, rather than develop true skill that applies _everywhere_ outside the test. A fixed test sends the wrong message about what makes you good. Just like a set of kata for a karate promotion test sends the wrong message about true combat readiness.
Belts originated in Judo, they had 100+ students, it was just a way of separating beginners from advanced, the advanced students would be working on advanced techniques while new students were working on basic techniques
5:35 - 6-05. “I don’t think it’s going to be called No Gi it’s going to be called grappling”. In AMERICA since the 1800’s ….catch wrestling! Judo/jujutsu/catch wrestling➡️Brazilian Jiu jitsu we need to start identifying and putting respect on 🇺🇸AMERICAN Jiu jitsu
Functionally, a belt is good for keeping your blouse closed, that's it. Business wise, it's good for the +95% in the art, who aren't there to compete. A belt motivates students to keep paying tuition and coming back to get smashed, because that's the art part. But for the other 5%, BJJ is more than an art, it's a sport... it's irrelevant. Even in Gi tournaments, there's so many sandbaggers. You can't 100% trust that you won't get someone who is obviously above their anticipated belt ranking.
Have to disagree with the comment by Ethan on that there will be no cross over gi /nogi champions, couldn’t be more wrong, the wave of kids coming through over the next 5-10 years will prove that, they are training 10 hours plus a week in both gi and nogi and fully understand both. Ruotolos and mica were just the beginning.
Mica and the Ruatolos are 100% proof of people being able to do both at the top but im guessing having a long reign at the top in both these days is much much harder
I am starting to feel a bubble form within the nogi community on this topic. these guys are not lost without gi grips lol....people keep saying the two are so different now but I dont know how you explain some of these dudes incredible success in both then. its not like meregali could go in and win at highest level judo or wrestling but he can place at adcc. go ahead and make heel hook legal in gi and I bet you anything meregali still wins everything
@@kulik121 I would say they are just the beginning of the wave cole abate be there too. AOJ have loads of kids ready to move up and take over training and competing both gi and nogi.
@@DoodleHats I really like B team and all their videos training etc and they are very good at what they do. Videos like this are more like trying to push a narrative making newbies think gi is dead and pointless to lead people more towards nogi, it’s just business for them as they are looking at franchising B team out. Personally the whole gi or nogi is stupid it’s all grappling it’s just preference really, but also worth noting nearly all ADCC champions train gi and compete gi also. 🤷♂️
Belts do not matter, as you guys know. Some care some don't . I never did and whooped blackbelts on toughness and strength alone. I too was like NATTY ROD on TRT for 10 years , levels stayed within natural limits , no one ever knew i was on it. I ended up with very thick blood and similar labs to NATTY ROD. I'm now off TRT and notice a huge diff , but no more thick blood ROD. give it a shot.
Infact when gracie jiu jitsu started there was only white belts and blue belts, white was the students and the blue was the professors. The belts started for more a comercial thing as u guys said
These guys are slowly reinventing the same belt idea as grandmaster Helio Gracie, of THE famous Gracie family. In his mind there was only two belts. Those who did not know jiu jitsu= white belt, and those who knew jiu jitsu= blue belt. Helio Gracie only used a blue belt, during training, even when he was a RED BELT.
In the other styles I train we do not wash our belts and we say it keeps in all the blood, sweat, and tears. So after several harder sparring sessions I would have to hang my belts outside as they would get pretty funky.
You guys need to examine the parallels with the competitve sports in which it's pure meritocracy, like Tennis, chess, Go, wrestling. There are probably BJJ athletes who have experienced both extensively with very good insights.
Would in the hypothetical street fight scenario proposed, a hoodie such as the ones wore in the video be lent more to a gi player still set than non gi? Most people are wearing clothes. Just because it's not a karate costume doesnt mean you can choke the fuq out of them with thier shit.
The belt system was an idea which came from one person and got drastically carried away and has now turned into a nonsensical western addiction which, from a neurological standpoint, hijacks a person's sense of self-worth and self-value by associating that sense of self with the color around their waist. When you study the brains value system you begin to understand that the belt system is more harmful than helpful. Intrinsic vs extrinsic value systems. The belt system is an extrinsic reward object/system which establishes an individual's personal belief on their own progress, not truth but belief. I was a coach for nearly 25 years in the worlds hardest sport, Gymnastics, and not once did I need or require my athletes in every level coached (level 1-10) to wear any kind of extrinsic colored garment in order to let them know where they were. They didn't need it and I didn't need it. Every time they performed their skills they knew where they were vs where the needed to be because I told them or I showed them by using a higher-level athlete. At my current school we do not use belts in any way, and it works better than not having belts. Simply because the belt system feeds visual information into the students and fills them with a false sense of belief in themselves. The belt system at the root is nothing more than either a business tool to make money or a crutch for instructors who do not know how to teach without the belt system. Take any instructor who is currently teaching with the belt system and challenge them to teach without it and see what happens.
I just think the way belts are awarded is kind of arbitrary. I used to think if you're a purple belt, you're supposed to beat every white belt easy... turns out no... turns out if you weigh 100lbs, and you're a purple belt girl, you're only supposed to really beat other 100lbs white belts easy... if her opponent is 180lbs she's not expected to perform at a purple belt level.... which makes the whole belt system kinda odd... I don't know... I don't think the belt system is perfect, but I don't think we have a better alternative.
Belts don't matter, they are just to appease ego. A participation trophy. I just couldn't imagine wrestling or muay thai with belt promotions 😂 there's a reason shady schools added more belts
Belts are an indication of knowledge and the ability to apply the knowledge, but less so the latter. In competition no-gi, talent and speed is more important, which is why a 20 year old might be able to submit a 60 year old black belt, doesn’t mean the white belt knows more about the art. Pick any black belt and any white/blue and even purple belt, can the lower belts teach a black belt, most likely no, can a black belt teach the lower belts, most likely yes. Would you want Danaher or Nick Rod teaching you about BJJ…belts do matter in 90% of cases
@@caglartunca34 yep, so the question is, are they representing BJJ? If all they’re concerned about is the competition side then they probably shouldn’t be awarded belts at all 🤷🏼♂️
At my last Gi roll a guy lifted me off of him when I had mount with his foot in my belt. Sooo bloody annoying! I worked hard to get there and then I have his toe jam in my belt! So yes I wash my belt.
I thing a rating system ELO like in chess will make more sense in this sport, it will not depending on subjective opinion of one person that promote you give a new belt
As a chess player ive been saying this too it just makes so much sense for a 1 on 1 sport like chess and you can award titles of black belt just like how you get a GM title in chess.
This is such a silly discussion because of course belts matter. Belts should be a reflection of mat time and general skill level. You have to have a way of organizing the different grappling abilities.
@@IamDude2 "Oldschool" professors are more known not to grade people for attitudes or ego which is good IMO hahahaha "Bro i fuccing smash everyone 100% of the time bro, Teens, women and children all tapped at all times, why dont i have my blue yet, i deserve it by now"
11:00 hahaha these lads trying to sell No GI as a better self defence system when GI BJJ has been doing just fine for a long time but just do both unless you want to compete in MMA or dislike one or the other. Sometimes putting the PJs on after weeks on no gi is really nice haha
There are a ton of no GI competitors that train both. Everyone from ATOS, 6 blades, AOJ etc. Most schools will train both and a lot of high level competitors come from them. It is kind of a stupid argument. I doubt anyone had Nicky Rod strip a wrist grip and look at him like a god, unless he was "buttered up" and surprised the opponent.
IMO, outside of high level competition, belts are meant to at least standardize a persons skill level. Sandbagging or having phenom aside, I think most people fall in somewhat the same skill curve that it becomes relatively fair. Belts matter in perhaps local / lower level tournaments, as a way to track progress, and perhaps in rewarding dedication to the sport (this is more of a business / personal endeavor). Other than that, especially in elite level competition, belts are irrelevant.
A D1 Wrestler would take forever to learn of to get out of mount and not to instinctively turn to their back when he’s on bottom. This is years of muscle memory in training in a different sport. You see it all the time and the UFC when one for the wrestler fights are on the bottom and the first thing they do is give up their back
Yes and no for average student probably it shows dedication,perseverance,time on mat knowledge moves in your arsenal u acquired in usually 8-10yr span especially in gi ,but in MMA no gi or streets nah
I think it's a good way to guage general knowledge if utilized correctly. As well, it makes sense from a business perspective to market to a wider potential pool of students who will overwhelmingly not compete (regularly). Competition-wise, especially in no-gi, I'd say it's not as important.
No-gi BJJ is pretty much just catch wrestling but with a more refined guard system at this point. The gi and belt system that accompany it are taken directly from Judo, as are most things in old school/gi BJJ to be frank and fair, the application is just different (BJJ = specialists on the ground but "merely" competent on the feet, Judo = specialists with throws/takedowns but "merely" competent on the ground, to grossly oversimplify things for the purposes of not rambling... which I am already!)
I think they're wrong about the gi guy vs no-gi. If a guy has a gi, he can use his own gi to grip against the no gi. And if you're in the street you don't need a guy to wear a gi. You know how to grab his clothes to bring him down, pass his guard or choke him. The no-gi guy has no idea how to use grips, and will find all his movements stalled by his opponent grabbing his clothes and tying him up.
I mean...belts matter, they just arent the ONLY thing that matters...nor do they matter for the exact reasons everyone thinks. Its not always a "skill" only (IE Execution) thing. Its progress, time, skill...everything combined. As a "Black Belt" I have rolled with all levels of belts and have found though yeah belts are a rough guide its not a guarantee. I have rolled with black belts and handed their asses to them with ease and on the flip have rolled with a blue and had to put in work to get the win. People will have automatic expectations of individuals with a black belt vs a blue belt, and that makes sense...but I have seen high level black belts SUCK at teaching, and other old black belts who cant roll well anymore but are amazing coaches. Same with blue, purple...brown...everyone has SOMETHING to offer...
No Gi is simply BJJ and Wrestling coming together and is a better version then both for either a “street fight” “MMA” “Grappling with subs. But most places outside of USA don’t even have no GI places. The BJJ place I train is GI but i would have much rather grappled without them and always wear my rush gear when we have open rolling on the mat.
IMO there should be a set curriculum just like, this is what makes BJJ Belts kind of weird and ambiguous is that there is generally no set curriculum and all belts are drilling the same techniques very often as opposed to ok new belts you drill this and higher belts you drill that, in Judo Black Belt just means one has learned a core set of between 30-60 techniques, both standing and ground "Newaza" (if they are teaching the complete set of Judo) with a very specific set of techniques for each belt, once someone has leaned all techniques for xyz belt they test for that belt demonstrating they know the techniques (drilling the techniques and competent in live sparring) and this a Black Black (1st Dan) would take 5 years as an example not the 10-12 in BJJ as Black Belt in Judo would be the beginner belt in which one really starts to develop the technique and refine it in live sparring where BJJ seems to be more about "winning" and knowing and testing for XYZ Technique at every belt , thus "could not explain or perform a lot of movements, techniques, positions if their life depended on it"
They teared apart the point systems, prohibited submissions, advantages, and now the belt system? Kind of expected to disregard the belt system in their gym, since there's no really one of them taking the role of professor? Very simple, if the guys are too skilled, and know what they are doing, why, and can teach some moves...move him up on the belt system. However, a one move guy, can finish higher belts with a new/good technique (boogie choke, darce or take down). Let's not mix-up competitors with hobbyist. How many times the black belt team is demanding their profs to promote a brown belt who is destroying everybody?!? Carlson Gracie, for example, was forced by the federation to promote Delariva to black after many victories. No-gi has no belt, but that's why they have colored rashguards representing the belt system! To finish, who does not want to become a black belt one day? I'm on my quest!!!!!
I want you guys to tackle this question. Is the rulesets of IBJJF gi and how it's trained in the gyms affecting the quality of the students coming out? They only learn certain leg locks, and many positions are banned. Does that do more harm than good when you open it up to a wider ruleset?
I think this is changing within BJJ, but again is probably where the belt system comes in, do you really want the chaotic white belts learning certain moves and breaking bones and ligaments every time they spar?
Leglocks is like pension plan… sooner u begin better prepare u will be when u reach It. Its not the problem of ruleset its the problem of the specific gym that they let you until purple belt without any leglock skills
Merigolli is pretty ok nogi and same with keenan Its just a set of different circumstances which makes the physics and approach different. And nogi is more fun for casuals to enjoy. Like basketball vs baseball maybe
It sucks though because a lot of gyms go by time and not progress. Muay Thai now there's a shirt thing and Muay Thai you use to only know your progress by fights but now a lot of Muay Thai hobbyists don't want to fight in the ring, sparring is enough . As a hobbyist though how would you know? Then a coach accidentally match up 2 different people in skill or weight and one might get hurt by spazzing. I did like my old gym had beginners, intermediate and advanced in no gi. I think that's how it should be. But some reward things would be cool in no gi. I think no gi has to officially change into grappling by name and other things have to change with that as well like really separate from bjj, wrestling and judo and be just grappling or another name.
There is no universal skill system approach to belts. Anyone can open a gym and distribute belts however they want .. my gym is all Gi and sometimes no Gi / wrestling and we have people who have trained for near 2 years total grappling: BJJ, wrestling , judo and some have never lost and they are white belts still lol .. while some gyms give a blue belt after 6 months training with no competition exp. And also the physical condition of a the participant.. a chubby out of shape white belt who’s been training for 6 months will still have a very hard time subbing an in shape athletic guy who’s 1 week in. I remember when my gym first opened up, maybe a year ago almost everyone of us were new to grappling .. me I was healthy: dieted, weight lifted .. I was able to constantly beat people who were near 100+LB heavier than me just from my athleticism + cardio .. then there are people who are a little smaller than me but waaaay more experienced, they can def beat me on points but never once have I been tapped by a guy smaller than me… and I’m only 170ish and 5’7 so not like I’m a giant like Nicky lmao. So in my short period of rolling, I’d say nah belts don’t matter at all because if they did a 170lb white belt shouldn’t be able to sub a 260lb white belt 2x in a row by RNC Belts are cut from the same cloth, but the fighters are not.
Belts are a measure of knowledge, and not ability. The problem with belts is that you can know a move well, and execute it poorly. So if you do the move 50 times, and you give your brain 50 poor examples. How much do you think that will help you the next time you do the move. Compared to the person that has done it twice but with excellence. Belts are a measure how how much repetition you have done. But things like technique and fatigue and body type, lower the quality of the examples that you provide to the brain, when observing the move you do, and this is the thing that cannot be measured as well with the belt system.
It matters when you are looking for a coach. Ask any childs parent who doesnt know anything about jiujitsu. They would rather have a coach who is a black belt than a coach who won a bunch of competitions.
Someone already has other martial art experiences(wrestling, judo etc) or is Olympian who compete for hard training sport, Belt is not always matter. Because winning of fight sports is decided by Strength, Cardio and Skills. For example Someone has Olympian ring gymnastic player, he or she already has Grappling strength, so their starting line is very different from other people who has not trained any sport seriously. It is just my opinion.
belts came from traditional japanese judo lol Gi is more if a martial arts Nogi Sport keep the belts, community ranking, and helps you level up and help each other Belts dont matter in Nogi competition, but matter to signify BJJ specific experience level
exactly, GI bjj is very specific. Nogi you have other exposure to wrestling and mma. hence the need for experience level distinction the costume thing is silly, people wear jackets and clothes all the time jackets came from samurai
Belts are experience, and to create an idea of whom to respect based on their knowledge. Belts are NOT an indicator of skill. A skilled white belt who is able to beat burples and browns knows how to use a couple of techniques at their best potential. But they don't necessarily have nearly the same wealth of knowledge as a purple or brown belt due to less experience
Ethen looks like the guy who was controlled by that rat in ratatouille
I can’t unsee it, I’ll never look at him the same. 😂
@@MrStrongBro I commented this drunk Saturday night have no recollection commenting this but now it’s really messing with me also
Holy shit!
Broooo lol ajajjajajajajajaja
True
I go to a 10th planet school, where nobody ever wears the gi. And yet, somehow, everyone is still obsessed with belts. People always say they don't care about belts, and they are always lying. It's just human nature: it's a hierarchy and it's a form of recognition. Personally I like the ranks, it helps you know where you stand. Does it matter? Not really. And yet it's everything.
recognition from winning tournaments >
if you are casual i see why would someone would care
just look at the thumbnail in the video. If the belts didn't matter, they wouldn't have referenced Nick Rods Blue Belt and him being a Blackbelt slayer. If belts go away, there will just be another criteria to rank people. It's a must in any contact sport. Division One, Collegiate level, Amateur champ, etc... Belts are just general tools of measuring competence and experience.
Belts are political and a money maker in most martial arts schools in the USA...They are seldom earned, they are a gift from the instructor to his paying customers...a 1st place medal or trophy is earned on the mat, belts not so much...
@@pulsarlights2825 You're not wrong in general but most martial arts promotions systems are not comparable to BJJ. It can take roughly 10 years to earn a black belt in BJJ. Haven't yet seen any BJJ belt (regardless of color) gifted to anyone. They were all earned where I've trained.
@@mmhm007 I know people at certain schools that basically suck (for lack of a better word), meaning they not only never competed but they rarely even rolled in the class...yet I watched them get promoted up the chain just for showing up and paying the money for 8-10 years...Not every school is like that, but they do exist....I would rather be a tough blue or purple belt than a black belt with very little mat time in 10 years....
I think belts matter a lot for people that don't want to compete. It's a concrete reward for improvement in skills and dedication to the sport. There is definitely a wide variety of skill levels at each belt, but I think they represent a good general guidance for the jiu jitsu experience of a person.
If you're paying to train.... why wouldn't you compete? It's the only way to know if the training you are receiving is relevant.
Not true, open mats is a pretty easy way to determine that without paying for competitions
@@DoubleI662 different people train BJJ for different reasons. Being over 40 i did a lot of comp in white and blue but now I'm in it for something different. Being at the top of the heap is no longer my goal. My goal is self improvement now and i don't won't to put myself in the risk that comp brings
@@DoubleI662 you know that some people just train for better shape, some self defence skills and just for fun? Still there are plenty of former comptetitors who are injured and just want to stick with their passion. It is just fun to do.
@@DoubleI662 no way. I'm the sole income for my family and can't take the extra risk sparring with strangers. Providing for my kids and spouse is 1000 times more important than trying to get a cheap 15 dollar medal. I know how my skills stack up when my competitor teammates and I spar hard, then see them win. Or if I go to an open mat and they try to smash me
Good to see Nicky Rod eating fruit instead of horse meat for a change.
Laughed out loud in public reading this comment
JAJAJAJAJA
Lol - RIGHT... guess he's taking that cholesterol result seriously. Good for him. He's my favourite grappler now his natty status has been confirmed.
Man, ever since those test results came out people won’t live it down. 😂
During his Ubereem days, Alistair Overeem said he was eating horsemeat when he got popped, but it ended up being acai lol.
I’m a Blue belt and I definitely care about Belt Promotions. However, my main focus is to be able to roll and defend myself against anyone no matter the belt. Jiu Jitsu is a personal Journey
Hey guys, the belt system is based on knowledge and application. The founder of judo created the belt system, he was an educator. BJJ came from Judo. Martial arts are supposed to be an education system, that’s why it’s called a grading when you get promoted. In judo the color belts are called Grades, and then there are 10 degrees of black, which are steps to mastery. The whole purpose of the belt system initially was to not make money, but to guide the students through the curriculum.
The problem is they stifle progression with age and time-at-rank minimums. I get they don't want people progressing through unnaturally, but can anyone really say that any sixth degree black belt is six times better than Gordon Ryan, who has been limited by his age and time-at-rank?
@@Nswix you’re right. The min time in rank is fairly new and prior, people just had to be awarded their black belt stripes by their own Professor. It was knowledge based. People like Xande, Gordon, Marcelo, Roger, and Bruno are Masters at their craft and this should be at least Coral Belts. Legends like Jean Jacques, Rickson, Royler, Liborio, and Royce should all be Grand Masters. But here we are. I would love to get my coral belt so now my goal is to live long enough and don’t die.
And that's why we need second system for competitions. Ranking system like elo. Belt systems for student is completely different needs than for competition...
@@mikkosalama an Elo ranking similar to chess would be super cool.
@@arnoldb4526 who’s getting black belts in 2 years in the US? In Japan yeah, 2 years, but the rest of the world it takes more than that. It took me 8 years to get my judo black belt in California.
Listening to how Nickyrod's brain works is the most entertaining thing on the internet.
Yeah his brain accessing information is like a huge warehouse for information with a single tonka truck sitting in the center
Reminds me of Ricky from Trailer Park Boys 😂
What was Nicky Rod's GPA at MIT?
Yeah you’re right. Sun drying a sweaty gi was the thing that did it for me😂
@@pulsarlights2825 🤣🤣🤣
Its like any sport. People that are young can be way more skilled than someone who has been doing it for years. Soccer and basketball are great examples of young kids coming in and beating more experienced pros. The belt system helps keep the hobbyists and shows that they and people who also compete are improving. That doesn’t mean a blue belt can’t beat a black belt. There are plenty of people that learn way quicker and have a higher ceiling but less training time.
I think as a competitor - just as Nicky said - belts don't really matter. However, as a business, especially for most of the BJJ non competition driven practitioner and the kids having a progression system in place that is standard and recognized is important. Great video. Thanks for sharing
Exactly, this is why you dont see recreational wrestling for adults as much. When students are wrestling in school they're essentially a fulltime athlete, hence no need for belts. They gauge their ability by competing, but when you're out of school and with no one else to compete with how do u know how ur doing.
Yeah for most. I know a guy who did mma professionally and I'm pretty sure is a bjj blackbelt + does nogi and owns a gym. I'll be training there soon and I don't care about belts I just want to be able to destroy anyone on the feet or on the ground. I've been to prison and if I go back I want to wreak havoc and run the yard on some straight bully shit.(I'm 6'4 so once trained will be a weapon.) Fuck a belt I want the skills
Thank you for using the footage of me rolling with Dorian 😂
Coaches only pay attention when you're not doing well haha...at least in my case.
As a "belt system", I tend to use this: white = newbie, blue = can defend against/control an untrained opponent of equal size/strength, purple = can defend against/control an untrained opponent of mostly any size/strength, brown = can defend against/control lower and most of the same belt level trained opponents of equal size/strength, black = can defend/control against almost anyone. Of course there are outliers if someone runs into a physical freak or D1 athlete. I also look at depth of knowledge too. For the most part this system works for me.
Dang by your rules I would be considered a brown belt but I'm a white. Lol 6 years in as a white because of military moving me around but yeah
A white belt can defend/control an untrained opponent of equal strength
I think a relevant question to this discussion is: what are the thresholds of differentiating one belt from another? what are the criteria to promote a student from one belt to another? how do these standards differ from one place to another? maybe the belt system is still relevant in no-gi, but the lack of a unified standard to rate athletes across the board gives the impression that the ranking is irrelevant ... just food for thought.
yeah i think its silly if there are no unified rules and i think it would be better if everyone gained rating points from beating people at tournaments and the only way to become black belt ect is beating those who are at that level, i think it would definitely remove all the fake promotions we see.
@@AaronGiffordOfficial So just screw everyone who doesn't want to compete or physically cant from getting a black belt? wut? Why would we want anyone controlling a system like that lol the IBJJF does enough damage as is...
@@Lockdown335 well if you don't want to compete then you probably aren't deserving anyways because you won't test your skills and then you won't even know if they'd work irl. And if you can't compete then how can you even be deserving of a higher rank if you can't even perform the skills that would make up someone of a higher rank, you can't just he a higher rank just because you've been doing bjj for a while. Something unified had to he done and if you want a higher rank then you should be shown that you're capable of performing it in a real setting. For those who think they're too old to compete they still have divisions for older people. But I repeat you should only be able to get a high rank if you can show that you know what you're doing in a real situation, no slowed down rolling or you demonstrating what you just learned from a danaher video 10 minutes beforehand, just pure skill from practicing and competing.
@@Lockdown335 I should've asked you in that comment why do you think someone who has never competed should be worthy of a black belt. Like if you base it on knowledge then anyone could be a black belt from watching RUclips videos and seeing how all the techniques are meant to be done but a real black belt is able to do them proficiently, effectively against any opponent
Would you rather be a "sand bagger" and be better than your actual belt or a black belt that sucks? I know a few black belts that do not really roll because they aren't as good as they should be.... How watered down is BJJ compared to the way it was 20 years ago?
I’ve heard this subject talked about a few times. I think it’s worth going back and reading about the original intention of the belt system by Kano before you even talk about it just for reference at least it would improve the discussion
“Before it was dinosaurs, now it’s humans” 😂 what an absolute champ.
These boys describe the change of no-gi grappling from BJJ to wrestling with submissions.
Fun Fact: Wrestling with submissions is the original "no-gi submission grappling". Satoru "Tiger Mask" Sayama's grappling program for Shooto in the 1980's was Catch Wrestling without pins. They did it for MMA as well as for pure grappling tournaments.
Anyone can pick distinct examples where someone did this or that. Wrestling is less submissions and more take down based in modern day grappling, BJJ is the other way round. BJJ comps start from standup so are now incorporating a lot more wrestling/judo but the need to be extremely proficient on the ground is still the mainstay. Wrestling due to its competition style will never have the variety and depth of submissions that BJJ has, it’s not needed in the sport.
Agreed.
@@IamDude2 what are you talking about? Classically, Shoot Wrestling had way more submissions than classic BJJ. If you've ever seen Shooto or Catch Wrestling prior to BJJ changing into Submission Wrestling, you would not have written that comment.
One of many examples is leg locks. They used to be banned in BJJ, meanwhile the current leg lock game originates from Catch.
@@theemperorcharlemagne who cares about “classically” is my point, anyone can use google, “fun fact” lol, were you told you’re a bit stupid in school so now you’re trying to ease that chip on your shoulder? Every martial art has changed over the centuries picking up relevant styles as pertained to the time and dropping others, catch wrestling originated in England..great but so what. These boys, as you put it, are talking about the modern application of wrestling in sport where submissions are less important vs bjj where they are, hence the wrestling + submissions statement, others have stated it’s more like bjj with more takedowns. Nicky Rod was a very good wrestler but didn’t know how to submit before he took up bjj, don’t believe me..google it genius.
Catch-as-catch-can
I think there should be an ELO rating system like in chess and award titles like they do there aswell like say black belt is 2000 rated, you have to have 3 performances that are on average 2000 rated or higher at a tournament and you get your black belt.
Then people loose their black belts as time goes on and they cant compete anymore?
@@Oldhandlewasabitcringe do you loose grand master title? I though once u reach It u have It
@@kulik121 Not sure, I was thinking more about as your rating drops. But makes more sense as a title you earn and keep.
@@kulik121 no you never lose your grand master title or any title
@@Oldhandlewasabitcringe in chess you cannot lose your title unless earned through cheating ect and it shows at one point you were that good and if your rating does drop then it just shows you aren't as proficient anymore due to age or taking a break ect
Belts were definitely a business thing at my old gym. $295 for a belt testing
YIKES
LOL
Any gym charging you to test is a mcdojo bro... Get the fuck out of there...
I could pay for 2 months of membership with that lol
Thats more than my yearly fee.
That's why sometimes I think that testing is a good thing before they get their belt. As a white belt and blue I got tested by my Brazilian professor about basic moves and escapes. When I got to purple (new club that doesn't do testing), they just paid attention when they rolled with me, and I think they made notes.
My school ranks adults as:
White, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, black. Compared to a lot of schools, our blue belts are tough. I think it’s a good system, because any colored belt in that ranking system can roll with white belts and have control
Belt systems work best probably as system of personal achievement. Because there's so much variation in skill at each rank, it might be better to judge people's skill on the length of time of their training, and/or their accomplishments in competition.
honestly the belts don’t matter as much depending on training environments because nicky rod for example he’s a brown belt but he trains with the best jiu jitsu players in the world so he has the skills of a black belt but if you picked up a black belt from a gym where it’s strictly hobbyists that guy would not beat any other black belts who legitimately train to compete belts are just tradition your skill is dependent on your environment and training regiment
Love both gi and no gi, belts matter, and and its something to be proud of.
How do you grade people at b team? I heard Nicky Ryan saying it's based on knowledge but what do you need to know?
For example do you have a curriculum like lachlan giles? do you grade competition/hobbyist or older people differently? Do they have to be well rounded, for example, someone with a great guard but no wrestling or leg attacks VS someone who is average everywhere etc?
It was a belt system that first touched these shores…….puts some respik on it always!
💯
Years ago I had the progression psychological problem, only in the game of Go. After years pondering about how to solve it I came to the conclusion that the best you can do is reassure the negative: if you learn one thing everyday, what is the likelihood you are NOT progressing?
This is 100% gold. Fantastic approach and I never thought of that. Thank you!
Back in the day JiuJitsu guys fought MMA, Gi and NoGi it wasn't this seperate thing like it is now. Even to this day the top NoGi guys train Gi still.
I really wish we could hear Nicky Ryan talk MORE
My club, which is almost exclusively no-gi grappling, we wear a coloured rubber wristband. I still think people need to see progress and everyone seeks recognition. It's important for clubs to maintain membership too.
I train nogi 95% of the time these days, but I have to say, unless you're getting in a "street" fight or whatever in Hawai'i, and everyone is in board short and flip flops, the gi actually makes more sense. Even in this video, you were all wearing hoodies. People... wear clothes. They're not kimonos, sure, but same idea. Again, I love nogi, not trying to take anything away, but for self defense I think gi makes fine sense, too.
I think they are super important but not in the context of competition, more so in relationship to your personal potential. NickyRod was a 'blue belt' relative to his potential at the time. Now he's a black belt relative to his knowledge and experience and this version of himself would crush 'blue belt' nicky rod. Idk if that matters but that's why that i think they are important.
As helio Gracie said what matters is you have skills and more importantly can you teach it because one day you won’t be able to fight anymore so since you can’t fight anymore does that mean you aren’t a black belt anymore?
I think everyone I'd on their own path and just because a athletic wrestler guy is subbing you doesn't mean you don't deserve that belt. I had a student talk to me about how he smashes higher belts or some higher belts that let other lower belts "work/play" because if I go 100 everyday on everyone then some people will not come back. And it's a business where people need to come back. I think belts matter so much, but to each their own and, that also everybody is on their own path on this jiu jitsu journey. Do not compare, focus on yourself and what you need to improve.
What about people that don't compete, are not athletic, injured, old/over the hill etc, they still get promoted as long as they keep showing up and paying the monthly fees, right? That doesn't exist in wrestling, people that suck get cut from the wrestling team, and you don't see middle aged men wrestling a few nights a week after work....
@Pulsar Lights it's hard to run a business when the majority of the population is unathletic. Everyone is on their own path as they maybe just studying the art and practicing it. If everyone who sucked at jiujitsu quit that would be half of the competitors if not more at your local regional maybe even national tournaments, hard for athletes to get good work without opponents. Respect everybody and respect their path and why they want to study the art of jiujitsu.
Nicky Rob actually starts eating the orange at 9:15 in case you want to skip the bs
Learned an obscure martial art at a school where there are no belts or uniforms, everyone wears workout clothes and it was important for us to ask students we didn't know where they were in training as they may not be able to take a throw and do a tumble or slip a joint lock. It was always much easier to ask, than to assume.
Since BJJ doesn't allow striking, throwing/slamming, it's less important to know your your opponents experience level.
When I get asked what belt I am, I just answer I been around the block, and leave it there.
Did anyone actually expect them to say that gi could defeat no gi? Of course not. That said, as an 8 year jj practitioner, I agree w a lot of what they say. I've long abandoned the idea that the belt is the end all be all. I've submitted higher belts, and I've been humbled by lower belts. What I've come to value the belt for is not how I stack up against others, but what it says about my progress. Am i better than I was 1, 5, or 8 years ago? Is my brown belt self better than my blue belt self? That is what I see the purpose as, and for that reason, plus some of the others mentioned in this video, I can't fully agree that belts are irrelevant.
Good for hobbyists...doesn't matter for top level competitors.
Agree with everything in the video, esp buttering up with B-cream.
ADCC used to be called submission wrestling I think, now called submission grappling
Well... a school just got hit w a 46 million dollar ruling. The main point of contention is that the student was a white belt. They went out of their way to say white belts are a beginner.
So yes... they matter because they have existed in the public domain for so long that the courts have given them meaning.
The higher I go in belts the less I care. I just want to be good and not have imposter syndrome anymore 😂
The forever struggle
No Gi and Gi are two different martial arts at this point. Belts are important because they mark the journey you training has gone through. I also agree that its very hard to Belt/Rank No Gi because standards really haven't been made for it.
If that’s the case why wasn’t Craig Jones able to score a single point against Nicholas Meregali, whose only been training in the gi for 6 months prior to ADCC.
@@siavosh87 and yet Nicky Rod as a wrestler won silver in ADCC as a blue belt.
There is still overlap like they said, but they are separating. Having a background in any other grappling discipline (Judo, Wrestling, Sambo,etc.) Will certaintly carry over to jiu jitsu just like gi has carry over to no gi.
@@Aaron-bd9sj yes, this goes to serve my point that there is a lot of overlap in these areas (like you mentioned yourself) and the overlap is only increasing. There is a lot of overlap in wrestling and Jiu Jitsu, not in the moves directly but things like base, etc. Even totally unrelated martial arts are starting to incorporate Jiu Jitsu into their game. There will still be a distinction between No Gi and Gi but to say they will be two different martial arts at some point is just not going to happen in my opinion.
Nicky Ryan wise beyond his years.
BJJ would be improved by going to two belts and separating competition and teaching achievements. A "novice" belt for people learning the basic positions, getting themselves conditioned, and who might pose a danger to themselves or others in a training environment. Basically, common standards for white belt through late-blue fit the "novice" category. Everyone else is grouped with an "advanced" belt - being late-blue to black. This consolidates competitions, eliminates sand-bagging, etc. A small subset of the advanced category should receive a teaching "badge" (or whatever) on their advanced belt... awarded to people with a deep understanding of the game and possessed of good character.
I think GI Jiu-Jitsu might be back though 🤔Mereigali and ruotolos make GI look awesome
Personally I view my skill level by who I’m beating. If your white crushing blues. Then your blue belt level. If your a blue crushing browns then your brown level. Everything else is just time.
Yeah that works at a good gym
Old school grading (like in karate), if done well, would probably help ease up confusion. Like where you get a belt when you're tested on being able to pull off a certain set of submissions or sweeps or whatever. The belt would serve as a decent marker of one's knowledge and practice, as apposed to a vague indication of one's skill.
Nah. In the end, what they care about is genuine skill level. A set test defeats the purpose -- then people just study for the test, rather than develop true skill that applies _everywhere_ outside the test.
A fixed test sends the wrong message about what makes you good. Just like a set of kata for a karate promotion test sends the wrong message about true combat readiness.
Belts originated in Judo, they had 100+ students, it was just a way of separating beginners from advanced, the advanced students would be working on advanced techniques while new students were working on basic techniques
5:35 - 6-05. “I don’t think it’s going to be called No Gi it’s going to be called grappling”.
In AMERICA since the 1800’s ….catch wrestling!
Judo/jujutsu/catch wrestling➡️Brazilian Jiu jitsu
we need to start identifying and putting respect on
🇺🇸AMERICAN Jiu jitsu
Functionally, a belt is good for keeping your blouse closed, that's it. Business wise, it's good for the +95% in the art, who aren't there to compete. A belt motivates students to keep paying tuition and coming back to get smashed, because that's the art part. But for the other 5%, BJJ is more than an art, it's a sport... it's irrelevant. Even in Gi tournaments, there's so many sandbaggers. You can't 100% trust that you won't get someone who is obviously above their anticipated belt ranking.
Have to disagree with the comment by Ethan on that there will be no cross over gi /nogi champions, couldn’t be more wrong, the wave of kids coming through over the next 5-10 years will prove that, they are training 10 hours plus a week in both gi and nogi and fully understand both. Ruotolos and mica were just the beginning.
Mica and the Ruatolos are 100% proof of people being able to do both at the top but im guessing having a long reign at the top in both these days is much much harder
@@Lockdown335 arent they like exception more than a rule?:)
I am starting to feel a bubble form within the nogi community on this topic. these guys are not lost without gi grips lol....people keep saying the two are so different now but I dont know how you explain some of these dudes incredible success in both then. its not like meregali could go in and win at highest level judo or wrestling but he can place at adcc. go ahead and make heel hook legal in gi and I bet you anything meregali still wins everything
@@kulik121 I would say they are just the beginning of the wave cole abate be there too. AOJ have loads of kids ready to move up and take over training and competing both gi and nogi.
@@DoodleHats I really like B team and all their videos training etc and they are very good at what they do.
Videos like this are more like trying to push a narrative making newbies think gi is dead and pointless to lead people more towards nogi, it’s just business for them as they are looking at franchising B team out.
Personally the whole gi or nogi is stupid it’s all grappling it’s just preference really, but also worth noting nearly all ADCC champions train gi and compete gi also. 🤷♂️
I'm glad Natural Rod is taking his nutrition seriously! 🤙🏻
Belts do not matter, as you guys know. Some care some don't . I never did and whooped blackbelts on toughness and strength alone. I too was like NATTY ROD on TRT for 10 years , levels stayed within natural limits , no one ever knew i was on it. I ended up with very thick blood and similar labs to NATTY ROD. I'm now off TRT and notice a huge diff , but no more thick blood ROD. give it a shot.
Infact when gracie jiu jitsu started there was only white belts and blue belts, white was the students and the blue was the professors. The belts started for more a comercial thing as u guys said
Solid video. Loving these laid back discussion videos.
It used to only be white and blue belt.
White belt was for everyone and Blue belt was for instructors
These guys are slowly reinventing the same belt idea as grandmaster Helio Gracie, of THE famous Gracie family. In his mind there was only two belts. Those who did not know jiu jitsu= white belt, and those who knew jiu jitsu= blue belt. Helio Gracie only used a blue belt, during training, even when he was a RED BELT.
In the other styles I train we do not wash our belts and we say it keeps in all the blood, sweat, and tears. So after several harder sparring sessions I would have to hang my belts outside as they would get pretty funky.
No hepect for the gi, no hespect for jiu-jitsu... jk I love the gi compete and train in both. They are different sports
Maybe there should just be 3 belts: novice, intermediate, expert. Back in the day there was only white and blue.
You guys need to examine the parallels with the competitve sports in which it's pure meritocracy, like Tennis, chess, Go, wrestling. There are probably BJJ athletes who have experienced both extensively with very good insights.
Would in the hypothetical street fight scenario proposed, a hoodie such as the ones wore in the video be lent more to a gi player still set than non gi? Most people are wearing clothes. Just because it's not a karate costume doesnt mean you can choke the fuq out of them with thier shit.
You guys are all wearing hoodies that can be used for gi chokes! Always good to remember that when you’re making the gi vs no gi st fight argument..
A coloured badge on the shorts wouldn’t be a bad idea.
The belt system was an idea which came from one person and got drastically carried away and has now turned into a nonsensical western addiction which, from a neurological standpoint, hijacks a person's sense of self-worth and self-value by associating that sense of self with the color around their waist. When you study the brains value system you begin to understand that the belt system is more harmful than helpful. Intrinsic vs extrinsic value systems. The belt system is an extrinsic reward object/system which establishes an individual's personal belief on their own progress, not truth but belief. I was a coach for nearly 25 years in the worlds hardest sport, Gymnastics, and not once did I need or require my athletes in every level coached (level 1-10) to wear any kind of extrinsic colored garment in order to let them know where they were. They didn't need it and I didn't need it. Every time they performed their skills they knew where they were vs where the needed to be because I told them or I showed them by using a higher-level athlete. At my current school we do not use belts in any way, and it works better than not having belts. Simply because the belt system feeds visual information into the students and fills them with a false sense of belief in themselves. The belt system at the root is nothing more than either a business tool to make money or a crutch for instructors who do not know how to teach without the belt system. Take any instructor who is currently teaching with the belt system and challenge them to teach without it and see what happens.
I just think the way belts are awarded is kind of arbitrary.
I used to think if you're a purple belt, you're supposed to beat every white belt easy... turns out no... turns out if you weigh 100lbs, and you're a purple belt girl, you're only supposed to really beat other 100lbs white belts easy... if her opponent is 180lbs she's not expected to perform at a purple belt level.... which makes the whole belt system kinda odd...
I don't know... I don't think the belt system is perfect, but I don't think we have a better alternative.
Belts don't matter, they are just to appease ego. A participation trophy. I just couldn't imagine wrestling or muay thai with belt promotions 😂 there's a reason shady schools added more belts
Belts are an indication of knowledge and the ability to apply the knowledge, but less so the latter. In competition no-gi, talent and speed is more important, which is why a 20 year old might be able to submit a 60 year old black belt, doesn’t mean the white belt knows more about the art.
Pick any black belt and any white/blue and even purple belt, can the lower belts teach a black belt, most likely no, can a black belt teach the lower belts, most likely yes. Would you want Danaher or Nick Rod teaching you about BJJ…belts do matter in 90% of cases
guess they dont care about the teaching part..the only mission is who gets the submission
@@caglartunca34 yep, so the question is, are they representing BJJ? If all they’re concerned about is the competition side then they probably shouldn’t be awarded belts at all 🤷🏼♂️
At my last Gi roll a guy lifted me off of him when I had mount with his foot in my belt. Sooo bloody annoying! I worked hard to get there and then I have his toe jam in my belt! So yes I wash my belt.
I thing a rating system ELO like in chess will make more sense in this sport, it will not depending on subjective opinion of one person that promote you give a new belt
As a chess player ive been saying this too it just makes so much sense for a 1 on 1 sport like chess and you can award titles of black belt just like how you get a GM title in chess.
This is such a silly discussion because of course belts matter. Belts should be a reflection of mat time and general skill level. You have to have a way of organizing the different grappling abilities.
Agreed. I’d also add attitude in there too.
@@IamDude2 "Oldschool" professors are more known not to grade people for attitudes or ego which is good IMO hahahaha "Bro i fuccing smash everyone 100% of the time bro, Teens, women and children all tapped at all times, why dont i have my blue yet, i deserve it by now"
Unless there's a specific criteria that everyone is aware of, I don't see how belts matters.
Meregali reached a world no gi level after only 6 months of training... The other way to the gi is NOT possible
11:00 hahaha these lads trying to sell No GI as a better self defence system when GI BJJ has been doing just fine for a long time but just do both unless you want to compete in MMA or dislike one or the other. Sometimes putting the PJs on after weeks on no gi is really nice haha
There are a ton of no GI competitors that train both. Everyone from ATOS, 6 blades, AOJ etc. Most schools will train both and a lot of high level competitors come from them. It is kind of a stupid argument. I doubt anyone had Nicky Rod strip a wrist grip and look at him like a god, unless he was "buttered up" and surprised the opponent.
Yes the exception makes the rule.
Why aren’t seasoned ibjjf guys dominating the podium recently if its that easy?
@@Black-Circle Mica Galvao, Tye and Kade Ruotolo, Kaynan Duarte, Pedro Marinho, Cyborg Abreu... Off the top of my head
IMO, outside of high level competition, belts are meant to at least standardize a persons skill level. Sandbagging or having phenom aside, I think most people fall in somewhat the same skill curve that it becomes relatively fair. Belts matter in perhaps local / lower level tournaments, as a way to track progress, and perhaps in rewarding dedication to the sport (this is more of a business / personal endeavor). Other than that, especially in elite level competition, belts are irrelevant.
A D1 Wrestler would take forever to learn of to get out of mount and not to instinctively turn to their back when he’s on bottom. This is years of muscle memory in training in a different sport. You see it all the time and the UFC when one for the wrestler fights are on the bottom and the first thing they do is give up their back
Belts are really important to guage progress for most people. Professional no-gi grapplers, it doesn't matter at all.
Yes and no for average student probably it shows dedication,perseverance,time on mat knowledge moves in your arsenal u acquired in usually 8-10yr span especially in gi ,but in MMA no gi or streets nah
I think it's a good way to guage general knowledge if utilized correctly. As well, it makes sense from a business perspective to market to a wider potential pool of students who will overwhelmingly not compete (regularly). Competition-wise, especially in no-gi, I'd say it's not as important.
No-gi BJJ is pretty much just catch wrestling but with a more refined guard system at this point. The gi and belt system that accompany it are taken directly from Judo, as are most things in old school/gi BJJ to be frank and fair, the application is just different (BJJ = specialists on the ground but "merely" competent on the feet, Judo = specialists with throws/takedowns but "merely" competent on the ground, to grossly oversimplify things for the purposes of not rambling... which I am already!)
I think they're wrong about the gi guy vs no-gi. If a guy has a gi, he can use his own gi to grip against the no gi. And if you're in the street you don't need a guy to wear a gi. You know how to grab his clothes to bring him down, pass his guard or choke him. The no-gi guy has no idea how to use grips, and will find all his movements stalled by his opponent grabbing his clothes and tying him up.
I mean...belts matter, they just arent the ONLY thing that matters...nor do they matter for the exact reasons everyone thinks. Its not always a "skill" only (IE Execution) thing. Its progress, time, skill...everything combined. As a "Black Belt" I have rolled with all levels of belts and have found though yeah belts are a rough guide its not a guarantee. I have rolled with black belts and handed their asses to them with ease and on the flip have rolled with a blue and had to put in work to get the win. People will have automatic expectations of individuals with a black belt vs a blue belt, and that makes sense...but I have seen high level black belts SUCK at teaching, and other old black belts who cant roll well anymore but are amazing coaches. Same with blue, purple...brown...everyone has SOMETHING to offer...
No Gi is simply BJJ and Wrestling coming together and is a better version then both for either a “street fight” “MMA” “Grappling with subs. But most places outside of USA don’t even have no GI places. The BJJ place I train is GI but i would have much rather grappled without them and always wear my rush gear when we have open rolling on the mat.
This is like the BJJ version of the “Is fortnite actually overrated?”meme with the kids sitting on the couch lmao
IMO there should be a set curriculum just like, this is what makes BJJ Belts kind of weird and ambiguous is that there is generally no set curriculum and all belts are drilling the same techniques very often as opposed to ok new belts you drill this and higher belts you drill that, in Judo Black Belt just means one has learned a core set of between 30-60 techniques, both standing and ground "Newaza" (if they are teaching the complete set of Judo) with a very specific set of techniques for each belt, once someone has leaned all techniques for xyz belt they test for that belt demonstrating they know the techniques (drilling the techniques and competent in live sparring) and this a Black Black (1st Dan) would take 5 years as an example not the 10-12 in BJJ as Black Belt in Judo would be the beginner belt in which one really starts to develop the technique and refine it in live sparring where BJJ seems to be more about "winning" and knowing and testing for XYZ Technique at every belt , thus "could not explain or perform a lot of movements, techniques, positions if their life depended on it"
They teared apart the point systems, prohibited submissions, advantages, and now the belt system? Kind of expected to disregard the belt system in their gym, since there's no really one of them taking the role of professor? Very simple, if the guys are too skilled, and know what they are doing, why, and can teach some moves...move him up on the belt system. However, a one move guy, can finish higher belts with a new/good technique (boogie choke, darce or take down). Let's not mix-up competitors with hobbyist. How many times the black belt team is demanding their profs to promote a brown belt who is destroying everybody?!? Carlson Gracie, for example, was forced by the federation to promote Delariva to black after many victories. No-gi has no belt, but that's why they have colored rashguards representing the belt system! To finish, who does not want to become a black belt one day? I'm on my quest!!!!!
Belt system is a good indicator (generally) of approximate time training imo
I want you guys to tackle this question. Is the rulesets of IBJJF gi and how it's trained in the gyms affecting the quality of the students coming out? They only learn certain leg locks, and many positions are banned. Does that do more harm than good when you open it up to a wider ruleset?
The answer to this question is absolutely.
I think this is changing within BJJ, but again is probably where the belt system comes in, do you really want the chaotic white belts learning certain moves and breaking bones and ligaments every time they spar?
Leglocks is like pension plan… sooner u begin better prepare u will be when u reach It. Its not the problem of ruleset its the problem of the specific gym that they let you until purple belt without any leglock skills
Merigolli is pretty ok nogi and same with keenan
Its just a set of different circumstances which makes the physics and approach different. And nogi is more fun for casuals to enjoy. Like basketball vs baseball maybe
There should only be one belt and only the best person should wear it
"Belt covers 2inches of your ass, you have to cover the rest. "- royce (I think)
It sucks though because a lot of gyms go by time and not progress. Muay Thai now there's a shirt thing and Muay Thai you use to only know your progress by fights but now a lot of Muay Thai hobbyists don't want to fight in the ring, sparring is enough . As a hobbyist though how would you know? Then a coach accidentally match up 2 different people in skill or weight and one might get hurt by spazzing. I did like my old gym had beginners, intermediate and advanced in no gi. I think that's how it should be. But some reward things would be cool in no gi. I think no gi has to officially change into grappling by name and other things have to change with that as well like really separate from bjj, wrestling and judo and be just grappling or another name.
Getting a blue matters as no one wants to be a white belt. After that belts don't matter, only ability. Medals over belts.
😂
The way I was told is imagine you’re a car. Wrestling is the acceleration and horsepower and BJJ is the brakes.
There is no universal skill system approach to belts.
Anyone can open a gym and distribute belts however they want .. my gym is all Gi and sometimes no Gi / wrestling and we have people who have trained for near 2 years total grappling: BJJ, wrestling , judo and some have never lost and they are white belts still lol .. while some gyms give a blue belt after 6 months training with no competition exp.
And also the physical condition of a the participant.. a chubby out of shape white belt who’s been training for 6 months will still have a very hard time subbing an in shape athletic guy who’s 1 week in.
I remember when my gym first opened up, maybe a year ago almost everyone of us were new to grappling .. me I was healthy: dieted, weight lifted .. I was able to constantly beat people who were near 100+LB heavier than me just from my athleticism + cardio .. then there are people who are a little smaller than me but waaaay more experienced, they can def beat me on points but never once have I been tapped by a guy smaller than me… and I’m only 170ish and 5’7 so not like I’m a giant like Nicky lmao.
So in my short period of rolling, I’d say nah belts don’t matter at all because if they did a 170lb white belt shouldn’t be able to sub a 260lb white belt 2x in a row by RNC
Belts are cut from the same cloth, but the fighters are not.
Belts are a measure of knowledge, and not ability. The problem with belts is that you can know a move well, and execute it poorly. So if you do the move 50 times, and you give your brain 50 poor examples. How much do you think that will help you the next time you do the move. Compared to the person that has done it twice but with excellence. Belts are a measure how how much repetition you have done. But things like technique and fatigue and body type, lower the quality of the examples that you provide to the brain, when observing the move you do, and this is the thing that cannot be measured as well with the belt system.
It matters when you are looking for a coach. Ask any childs parent who doesnt know anything about jiujitsu. They would rather have a coach who is a black belt than a coach who won a bunch of competitions.
Gi works especially if they wearing hoodies or long pants in a street fight
It shouldn’t matter if your just a nogi trainer but if you train gi I think it’s important
Someone already has other martial art experiences(wrestling, judo etc) or is Olympian who compete for hard training sport, Belt is not always matter. Because winning of fight sports is decided by Strength, Cardio and Skills. For example Someone has Olympian ring gymnastic player, he or she already has Grappling strength, so their starting line is very different from other people who has not trained any sport seriously. It is just my opinion.
belts came from traditional japanese judo lol
Gi is more if a martial arts Nogi Sport
keep the belts, community ranking, and helps you level up and help each other
Belts dont matter in Nogi competition, but matter to signify BJJ specific experience level
exactly, GI bjj is very specific. Nogi you have other exposure to wrestling and mma. hence the need for experience level distinction
the costume thing is silly, people wear jackets and clothes all the time
jackets came from samurai
Belts are experience, and to create an idea of whom to respect based on their knowledge. Belts are NOT an indicator of skill. A skilled white belt who is able to beat burples and browns knows how to use a couple of techniques at their best potential. But they don't necessarily have nearly the same wealth of knowledge as a purple or brown belt due to less experience